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Speaker 1: Ah, beaut Force. If it doesn't work, you're just not

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Speaker 1: using enough. You're listening to Software Radio, Special Operations, Military

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Speaker 1: news and straight talk with the guys and the community

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Speaker 1: soft rep dot com on time on Target. He has

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Speaker 1: got to hear Jack Murphy is here. And I gave

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Speaker 1: a little recap from Shot Show and from the team

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Speaker 1: Room Party for people who earned the episode two episodes ago,

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Speaker 1: the one you did in the field. Yes, so cool man,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, people probably want to hear from you about

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Speaker 1: what you thought of Shot Show. And of course the

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Speaker 1: team Room Party. Well, the team Room Party went good.

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Speaker 1: It was in a smaller, quieter venue this year, kind

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Speaker 1: of off the beaten path in Vegas, and I think

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Speaker 1: it was it was good. It was better. It was

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Speaker 1: easier for us to like talk to each other or

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Speaker 1: talk to the people came to the party meet each other. Actually,

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Speaker 1: the food was very good, beer was good, and you know,

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Speaker 1: I can't complain. I was happy with it. And I

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Speaker 1: think it was just probably a bigger crowd of people

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Speaker 1: in terms of members, because I think the few years

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Speaker 1: before that that we did the team Room Party at

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Speaker 1: the House of Blues, we had some like probably more

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Speaker 1: friends who came. But this was a lot of members

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Speaker 1: of the site of team remembers, the people that we

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Speaker 1: don't know probably what do you think, like a hundred people. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was around there, and it was a good mix

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Speaker 1: of familiar faces but also people who are brand new

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Speaker 1: to the site and also, um, there were even a

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Speaker 1: couple of people, Um, James Powell was telling me who

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Speaker 1: was who were like, oh, you guys have a website,

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Speaker 1: my you know, my wife. Just a great club And

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Speaker 1: I wasn't even aware. So that's cool. Is a mix

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Speaker 1: of all different people who we gotta do some better

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Speaker 1: cross promotion, I guess no, But I think that's that's

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Speaker 1: good to see too though, that the Great Club is

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Speaker 1: doing really well. And um, yeah, every every part of

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Speaker 1: Hurricane Group I think has it's like core uh membership.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, it's good. Um. The Shot show itself interesting

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Speaker 1: as always, in exhausting that that was my seventh year

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Speaker 1: in a row. Wow, alright, the Shot Show. So I'm

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Speaker 1: kind of like, as far as like the actual show itself,

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Speaker 1: I'm pretty burned out on all that. Um, but you know,

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Speaker 1: I got to see friends of mine, I got to

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Speaker 1: see people I haven't seen a long time. I got

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Speaker 1: to see guys. You know, I served within range of

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Speaker 1: battalion that I haven't seen in years. Um, So you know,

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Speaker 1: it's great for that, you know, and it's great for

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Speaker 1: seeing some of the software writers who are spread out

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Speaker 1: around the country you don't get to see every day,

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Speaker 1: so it's a good experience in that sense. He has

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Speaker 1: My first time meeting Kurt, who was awesome, first time

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Speaker 1: meeting b k Rooman Terius. Uh. And I'm the one

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Speaker 1: who tends to know everybody from the site, but even

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Speaker 1: Alex I never met. So I had never met Alex

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Speaker 1: in person actually, and I said it on two shows

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Speaker 1: back when I met Alex. When I met these guys,

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Speaker 1: it didn't feel like I was meeting a new person.

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Speaker 1: Alex is exactly who I to be. Yeah, yeah, Alex was.

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Speaker 1: I felt like I had met him before. Um. But

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Speaker 1: when it was good, you know, we we have. We

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Speaker 1: had a pretty good group of our guys out there too.

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Speaker 1: Jason from on Terius. I don't know if you want

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Speaker 1: to say James bow No, I mean, he's his name

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Speaker 1: is out there, so it doesn't matter. Um, I still

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Speaker 1: say James pal Mr Odissean his his name. You can't

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Speaker 1: say who else was out there, Kurt, and then of

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Speaker 1: course they're a writer for the other sites like Travis Scott. Yeah, um,

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Speaker 1: Jen's Hammer. Yeah yeah, it's a really good group of guys.

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Speaker 1: Miller Mark Miller was there and we were we were

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Speaker 1: at a house and like the worst part of Daggan's

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Speaker 1: where we heard cops coming by all night. Yeah. Man,

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Speaker 1: we need to do a better job with that. Like,

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Speaker 1: and I'm tired of sleeping on the couch. That's not fun.

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Speaker 1: But you also came later than other people, so that's

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Speaker 1: why that happened. I had a bed. I usually don't

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Speaker 1: have a bed. I got a bed last year only

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Speaker 1: because we got kicked out of the taj mahole you

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Speaker 1: guys were staying in and we were in another like

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Speaker 1: rent airbnb house again in the ghetto. I gotta bed

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Speaker 1: that time. Um. And then the other thing I gotta

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Speaker 1: ask you about is, prior to going the Shot Show,

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Speaker 1: you went to what someone says like the Polar Opposite

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Speaker 1: with your wife. You went to the March. Yeah. Um,

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Speaker 1: my wife has spent you know, a good bulk of

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Speaker 1: her career as a journalist covering um social conflicts and

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Speaker 1: protest movements and stuff like that. So she wanted to

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Speaker 1: go take a look, and um, we didn't actually see

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Speaker 1: the march itself. Like beforehand they have like all the

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Speaker 1: I don't know if they're protesters necessarily, I guess so,

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Speaker 1: but they have them all corralled like behind these like

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Speaker 1: steel fencing and then they released them and they get

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Speaker 1: to go march past Trump Tower. Um, so we weren't

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Speaker 1: there for that. We just kind of saw like the

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Speaker 1: beginnings of it as people were like, oh, going to

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Speaker 1: the rally point. Yeah. The Trump Tower thing reminds me, um,

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Speaker 1: there is I'll be politically correct on here, even though

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Speaker 1: I don't have to be a transgender person I went

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Speaker 1: to school with. And it's a picture of this person him,

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Speaker 1: her whatever, topless in front of a Trump tower. So

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Speaker 1: like that. The Women's March awesome. Uh so yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: what do you think of the message or I don't know.

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Speaker 1: With all these protest movements, I mean a loose For me,

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Speaker 1: I think it's really hard And that's my main problem

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Speaker 1: with them. It's really hard to know exactly what it

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Speaker 1: is they want. And you know this this goes for

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Speaker 1: like Occupy Wall Street, this goes for Black Lives Matter,

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Speaker 1: this goes for the Women's March. It's they're all formed

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Speaker 1: around this sort of like emotional cathartic experience that they

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Speaker 1: want to have, this like sense of togetherness, and we're

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Speaker 1: all in opposition to this thing um but like reform wise,

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Speaker 1: like what policies do you want put in place? And

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Speaker 1: that's my problem with all these protest movements, that they're

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Speaker 1: not focused around programmatic reform. So I don't even it

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Speaker 1: gets to the point where I don't even know if

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Speaker 1: I agree or disagree with them, because I don't know

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Speaker 1: what they really stand for. And every single person you

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Speaker 1: talked to is probably going to say something different. See,

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Speaker 1: I'm sort of in disagreement with you on this. And

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Speaker 1: I was at Occupy Wall Street when it happened, which

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Speaker 1: was interesting. I wasn't there is like a protester. I

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Speaker 1: went to cover it with Will cow and Mike Binns

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Speaker 1: and we got some audio yet people who were like,

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Speaker 1: they don't know why they're there. It was it was

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Speaker 1: just funny. But my feeling, and I said it to

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Speaker 1: you when we were, you know, texting back and forth

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Speaker 1: for the show. I feel like Occupy Wall Street, Black

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Speaker 1: Lives Matter, the Women's March, it's it's all one and

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Speaker 1: the same. It's all kind of the same message of

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Speaker 1: that they want liberal policies, and it's a lot of

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Speaker 1: identity politics, so that if you say, I don't stand

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Speaker 1: for what the Women's March stands, or oh why do

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Speaker 1: you eight women, I don't like Black lives matter? Oh

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Speaker 1: why don't you care about it? There's definitely a strong

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Speaker 1: undercurrent of identity politics. But that's true throughout all of

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Speaker 1: America at the moment. It's all about identity and how

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Speaker 1: you identify yourself. I mean, I would say there's no

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Speaker 1: right wing um there is, there's nothing that's like a

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Speaker 1: white man's well well, I mean we've seen some of that,

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Speaker 1: but it's really minor covered. The Women's March is a

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Speaker 1: big thing. If you talk to conservatives, their identity is

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Speaker 1: very very important to them. I don't think it's as

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Speaker 1: important as a lot. It's extremely important, and now they

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Speaker 1: identify is extremely important. But the reason I say it's

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Speaker 1: all just left wing is all, right, one of these

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Speaker 1: these three marches are are left leaning, yeah, and a

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Speaker 1: left wing yeah, I'm not, And I think that's all

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Speaker 1: that the politics is about. Like I was listening, But

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Speaker 1: if you go up to them and you ask what

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Speaker 1: would you like your government to do? I think some

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Speaker 1: I think the more informed people, Um, there's somebody would

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Speaker 1: say they would say they want government to pay for

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Speaker 1: birth control the care they want. They want um abortion

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Speaker 1: to be legal in all fifty states. It's already legal. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but they want to make sure that there's not a

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court justice that would overturn Roe v. Wade. That's

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Speaker 1: not like a reform, that's not a policy, that's just like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm afraid the Supreme Court's gonna change, like yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: but I you know, I think that's why they want

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Speaker 1: to stack Democrats in there. That's one of the main

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Speaker 1: rings they do. And you know, but these also they

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Speaker 1: want that they want quote women to run what kind

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Speaker 1: of women Definitely not republic but no nobody. I mean

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Speaker 1: you can look at the women's march or even attended,

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Speaker 1: and that's not what you come away with. Like, I

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Speaker 1: don't understand what they wanted. I know they are opposed

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Speaker 1: to Trump. They don't like sexism. I would say the

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Speaker 1: birth because the thing is one policy. You know, they're

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Speaker 1: they're very against uh companies opting out of birth control

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Speaker 1: for religious reasons. Remember the hobby lobby thing. You know.

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Speaker 1: That's that's one message I've seen that I think is

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Speaker 1: pretty good. I didn't take that away from it, but

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Speaker 1: I wasn't there, so you know. But I mean I

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Speaker 1: also didn't go around and interview people. And if I

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Speaker 1: was actually, if I was actually covering the march, I

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Speaker 1: would do that. I would go and talk to more

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Speaker 1: people and see what their thoughts were. Um, but with

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Speaker 1: all these movements, I just come away from it more

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Speaker 1: baffled than when I started. What about is one of

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Speaker 1: the coherent themes? Trump is literally hitler. I didn't see.

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Speaker 1: I didn't see any like signs like that. Well, let

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Speaker 1: me think, I don't think I saw anything about like

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Speaker 1: Nazis or anything like that that I recall. Well, it's

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Speaker 1: just interesting because you go to from there to shot Show,

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Speaker 1: which really is the opposite. Because I said this when

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Speaker 1: I went to shot Show last year on the podcast

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Speaker 1: that and if you think people at the shot Show

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Speaker 1: don't have an identity, no, they're not identifying different though

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Speaker 1: I think it's I I personally see it as I do,

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Speaker 1: I guess just the way I see it as different.

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Speaker 1: But um, I said that when I went last year,

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Speaker 1: just looking at it objectively, I felt like the people

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Speaker 1: walking around SHOT show where the people forgotten about by

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Speaker 1: you know the quote coastal elites, Yeah, why did you?

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Speaker 1: How did Trump get elected? These are the people that

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Speaker 1: many of them elected Trump, and they did feel forgotten about.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, a hundred percent. I agree. And when

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Speaker 1: I the last last year SHOT Show, this is hilarious.

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Speaker 1: I I walked in the last day of the show,

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Speaker 1: and um, it was totally quiet. Like if you ever

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Speaker 1: been to the SHOT Show. It's at the Sands Expo Center.

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Speaker 1: It is huge, huge, and there's just thousands of thousands

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Speaker 1: of people packed in there. And I walk in there

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Speaker 1: that last day and it's like you could hear a

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Speaker 1: pin drop, and I'm like, oh my god. I thought

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Speaker 1: my first thought was it must be because it's the

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Speaker 1: last day and everyone's so burned out on partying and drinking,

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Speaker 1: like everyone must be hungover and exhausted. But then as

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Speaker 1: I'm walking around, I realized they have these projection screens

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Speaker 1: all over the place and it's Trump's inauguration and everyone's

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Speaker 1: there with like their hand over their heart, like getting

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Speaker 1: a little tear eyed, like we're making America great again.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, and they were totally quiet, like you literally

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Speaker 1: hear a pin drop in this in this convention center. Um.

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Speaker 1: And yes, so these are people who have a whole,

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Speaker 1: i should say, a whole separate um set of values,

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Speaker 1: but a different set of values that isn't um represented

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Speaker 1: in the media, um in Hollywood and television. But nonetheless

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Speaker 1: it is they are. They do constitute a culture. It's

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Speaker 1: a culture. There are people, they have jobs, they have

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Speaker 1: families or you know, if they're unemployed, they have problems

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Speaker 1: putting food on the table. They have concerns just like

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Speaker 1: anyone else in America. And it's not totally a mistake

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Speaker 1: that they felt forgotten about. You know, most of the

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Speaker 1: most of the poverty in America is white poverty. Most

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Speaker 1: of the people on welfare in America is not like

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Speaker 1: black welfare mothers in New York City. Although to be fair,

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Speaker 1: the people at shot Shore or not. Yeah. And they're

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Speaker 1: they're small bit small business owners, large business owners. You know,

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Speaker 1: they're successful people. On making a kind of statement about

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Speaker 1: people in Middle America, Um, who you know, some of

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Speaker 1: them are a lot of them are not doing so

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Speaker 1: well and economically the places where they live have been

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Speaker 1: neglected and passed over and I think yeah, they absolutely

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Speaker 1: responded to Donald Trump because he was coming in. He's like, listen,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna focus on America again. We're gonna put America first. Uh,

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Speaker 1: We're not going to try to shut down coal factories.

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Speaker 1: We're going to try to stimulate American industry and business.

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Speaker 1: And whether or not that like the are the jobs

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Speaker 1: coming back, that's another debate, and that's like an economic conversations,

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Speaker 1: very complicated. Um, but I think that emotionally they responded

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Speaker 1: to that. And yeah, these are the people, um from

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Speaker 1: you know, not coastal elites like Donald Trump as a

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Speaker 1: coastal elite, but um, there are people who live, you know,

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Speaker 1: in the Square States, you know, in the middle of America.

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Speaker 1: They're not on the left coast or the right coast.

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Speaker 1: And um, I think, yeah, it's a culture that has

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Speaker 1: been forgotten about and no one really talks about. And

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Speaker 1: you know, they responded to that. Yeah, which is a

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Speaker 1: nice transition to tonight as a recording this. By the

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Speaker 1: time you'll hear it, it will have happened. But is

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Speaker 1: the State of the Union address. And the one thing

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Speaker 1: I wanted to mention is there's quite a few Democrats

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Speaker 1: who are just not going. Um, I wrote down all

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Speaker 1: of them. So there's a representative John Lewis of Georgia,

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Speaker 1: Maxine Waters of California, for Rica Wilson and Florida, Premia

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Speaker 1: Jaia Paul might be saying that wrong with Washington. Earl

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Speaker 1: Bloomin Hour of Oregon, Gregory Meeks of New York, Danny

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Speaker 1: Davis of Illinois, Jens Shakowsky of Illinois, Bobby Russia, Illinois. Like,

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Speaker 1: it's quite a few people who were just not going,

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Speaker 1: and I was trying to look it up. So if

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Speaker 1: if I'm wrong on this, feel free to correct me.

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Speaker 1: But I'm pretty sure, like unprecedented for this amount of

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Speaker 1: people to just not go to the State of the Union.

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Speaker 1: And we're talking about before. My feeling is, no matter

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Speaker 1: how you feel about this current president, you may not

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Speaker 1: be obligated to go to the State of the Union,

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Speaker 1: but it is a tradition that you go, you listen

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Speaker 1: to this president speak and show your participation in the process.

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Speaker 1: And well, I mean Donald Trump himself has broken from

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Speaker 1: tradition nearly every single thing. So I mean, I don't

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Speaker 1: know that one thing justifies the other, you know, But

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Speaker 1: I mean personally, I don't care like this is like entertainment. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's not about politics. So it's like people like criticizing

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Speaker 1: Trump because he plays golf too much. It's like, I

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Speaker 1: don't care. I don't, I don't. I don't care about that.

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Speaker 1: People would criticize um Obama for playing too much golf.

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Speaker 1: People would criticize George W. Bush because he spent too

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Speaker 1: much time at his ranch in Texas. I don't, I

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Speaker 1: don't care that. That's that's entertainment. That's not about policy,

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Speaker 1: that's not about passing legislation. So I mean, like, to me,

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Speaker 1: this is like a reality TV like who's going to

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Speaker 1: the State of the Union address? Who's not? And I

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Speaker 1: can see like already Fox News having like a ticker

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Speaker 1: are you going? Are you not going? And here's the

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Speaker 1: ones who are going? You're the ones who aren't. Who's

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Speaker 1: gonna go? Yeah? Yeah, it definitely you know, as you said,

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Speaker 1: this president is certainly broken from tradition himself, but it

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Speaker 1: does break from a pretty long tradition in this democracy

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Speaker 1: that you go and you watch a president do the

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Speaker 1: State of the Union and I think, whether you like

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Speaker 1: the guy or not, you should be there. That's that's

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Speaker 1: my feeling on it. As we were saying earlier before

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Speaker 1: we recorded. You're not obligated to go, but I think

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Speaker 1: you should be there, like if you if if you

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Speaker 1: ran for Congress and you won. I think for the

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Speaker 1: most part, your constituents want to want their voice heard,

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Speaker 1: to be there, even though it's not a vote. Nobody's

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Speaker 1: voice is gonna be heard as Donald Trump's unless uh

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Speaker 1: someone pulls a who was it Congress that yelled at Obama? Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I remember that. I'll fact check that, but yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I remember that one. I think that's more participating in

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Speaker 1: the process, honestly, to go and shout something out than

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Speaker 1: to not go at all. Again, it's entertainment, and he

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Speaker 1: got a ton of donations after that, you know, the

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Speaker 1: anti Obama. Crawt was like, I like this guy at

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Speaker 1: the balls to shout something out. I'm gonna donate to

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Speaker 1: this campaign. I don't want to see America end up

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Speaker 1: like having the Taiwanese parliament where they're like throwing fisticuffs.

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Speaker 1: You know. British Parliament gets pretty uh pretty crazy too.

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Speaker 1: Not they don't throw fisticuffs, but they know they yell

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Speaker 1: they yeah, they yell at each other and they criticize

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Speaker 1: each other. And Um, American presidents couldn't handle that. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I don't think even Obama could handle that. He seemed

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Speaker 1: like he kind of had thick skin. Donald Trump, he

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Speaker 1: definitely wouldn't be able to handle it. Um. I don't

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Speaker 1: think Bush would have been able to handle it either.

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Speaker 1: Like American presidents, I don't think they can handle that

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Speaker 1: kind of like criticism. It's just not part of our institution.

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Speaker 1: Congressmen are kind of being forced to handle it because

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Speaker 1: now when they have these town hall meetings there are

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Speaker 1: large groups of protesters. You show up, shout shit out, disrupt,

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Speaker 1: you know, don't wait for their turn to ask, and

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Speaker 1: they want their representative to be like the most extreme

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Speaker 1: person possible. Yeah, well in some case, but you know,

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Speaker 1: in other cases where let's say it's a Republican congressman,

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Speaker 1: they'll have a huge constituency of left wing people, some

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Speaker 1: not even in the district be like, you know, why

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Speaker 1: don't you want women to have birth control? You fascist

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Speaker 1: pig and ship like that. You know, I've seen it.

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Speaker 1: I believe it. I believe it. Yeah, And so they

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Speaker 1: kind of have to handle that type of stuff when

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Speaker 1: when they hold these public town hall meetings and then

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Speaker 1: if you don't hold the public town hall meeting, people

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Speaker 1: will be like, you don't want to listen to your constituents.

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Speaker 1: So I mean that's why I think, you know, the

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Speaker 1: smartest people out there are not gonna ever want to

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Speaker 1: get into politics because it's like who who wants? Who

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Speaker 1: wants to deal with that mess? You know, And that's

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Speaker 1: kind of sad. Although you know, this is another precedent

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Speaker 1: said like it used to be that if you said

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Speaker 1: any you know, remember Bill Quinton, Like I smoked marijuana

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Speaker 1: Inhale and it was a huge like oh my god moment.

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Speaker 1: At this point, Trump has done at all, Like we've

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Speaker 1: talked about him banging born stars, grabbed by the pussy comment, Like,

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Speaker 1: I think anything is fair game after that. Yeah, as

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Speaker 1: long as you would as long as you admit certain

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Speaker 1: things like how Obama even came out and said, like, yes,

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Speaker 1: experimented with cocaine in college. No one talked about it

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Speaker 1: again because said he did it. Whatever. Yeah, I think

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Speaker 1: if you own up to that kind of stuff, people

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Speaker 1: are more forgiving the understand like, okay, you were a kid,

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Speaker 1: like you did some dumb stuff, and you know, if

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Speaker 1: you lie about it and then it comes out then

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Speaker 1: that becomes a problem, like the same thing like Clinton.

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Speaker 1: Even if he had said, yes, I I did in

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Speaker 1: fact have sexual relations with Monica Lewinsky, I think it

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Speaker 1: would have been easier for for everybody, whole parties concerned.

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Speaker 1: Probably he wouldn't have gotten impete. He would not have

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Speaker 1: gotten Yeah that that whole like deposition and yeah, all

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Speaker 1: that stuff would not have happened. Yeah, Um, all right,

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Speaker 1: listener email before you get to Mike Vining, which I

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Speaker 1: know that you are um nerd ing out hardcore. I'm

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Speaker 1: super stoked that I have to dial it down a

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Speaker 1: little bit because I get all excited when we talked

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Speaker 1: to I don't think I've ever seen you more excited

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Speaker 1: to have a guest on. So yeah, I mean I've

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Speaker 1: I've wanted to have a Sergeant Major vinding on for

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Speaker 1: a long time. He's just a fascinating guy. He has

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Speaker 1: a wealth of knowledge locked up in his mind that

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Speaker 1: he can share with you. It's gonna be great. So, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, right before we get to that email sent

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Speaker 1: to soft Rep dot Radio at soft rerep dot com.

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Speaker 1: I thought this was a really good one. Um, and

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Speaker 1: keep them coming high, lads. I've recently been getting right

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Speaker 1: into your podcast. As a serving member of Australian soft

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Speaker 1: I really love what you're putting out. My question for

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Speaker 1: you today is this, what is your feeling towards the

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Speaker 1: current trend of soft personnel being brought more and more

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Speaker 1: into the public eye. Does the boost and recruitment from

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Speaker 1: all these books and movies come at the cost of

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Speaker 1: t tps potentially being gleaned by hostile stakeholders. I see

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Speaker 1: videos of the Taliban's Red Unit and can't help them

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Speaker 1: think that this may be a result of one too

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Speaker 1: many seal videos popping up on YouTube. What other considerations

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Speaker 1: are there for doing this? Love your work, so please

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Speaker 1: keep doing what you're doing. And he uh signs simply

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Speaker 1: as see. So those are some really interesting comments. UM.

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Speaker 1: And I'll say there's a very big cultural difference between

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Speaker 1: the Australians and the United States and as far as

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Speaker 1: how they regard special operations and how they handle it.

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Speaker 1: And it's not true just for Australia also UM, the

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Speaker 1: European countries. UM, for the Canadians. I met with some

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Speaker 1: Canadian special operations guys that shot UM. The everything for

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Speaker 1: those countries is like super super sensitive, super political. UM.

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Speaker 1: Austral in special operations. Whenever they have their pictures taken,

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Speaker 1: they're wearing Bala clavas and ski masks and stuff, because

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Speaker 1: we can't compromise our identity and the terrorists will know

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Speaker 1: who we are. They'll come and kill our families. And uh,

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Speaker 1: they go and they do. They'll do a mission like

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Speaker 1: a foreign internal defense mission overseas and that is like

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Speaker 1: the deepest, darkest secret of say Australia, that is like

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Speaker 1: super classified. Nobody talks about that. In the United States,

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Speaker 1: we'll send special Forces out to do a similar mission

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Speaker 1: and there's like a press release. It's like completely out

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Speaker 1: in the open and they'll interview at Special Forces members

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Speaker 1: but they're not wearing any masks. And here we are,

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Speaker 1: we're training uh you know, our host nation partners in

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Speaker 1: uh you know this West African country and this is

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Speaker 1: kind of what we're doing over here. And it's all good.

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Speaker 1: It's totally different, like cultural differences and how we handle things.

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Speaker 1: And um, I think part of it is because America

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Speaker 1: has there's a bunch of different reasons why, but I

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Speaker 1: think America, you know, we're a democracy, as is Australia,

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Speaker 1: but we also have the freedom of speech, freedom of

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Speaker 1: the press, and UM, we're just much bigger, you know,

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Speaker 1: we're kind of the We're the world leader, world's most

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Speaker 1: powerful military. So our approach to public engagement is different

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Speaker 1: by necessity. UM the does is it a good thing

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Speaker 1: or a bad thing that special operations soldiers are more

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Speaker 1: in the limelight than they were in the past. Um,

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Speaker 1: I think it has both good and bad aspects. Uh.

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Speaker 1: I really do believe that in a democratic country like

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Speaker 1: the United States, that there has to be public engagement,

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Speaker 1: that the taxpayers should know that this is where your

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Speaker 1: money is going towards that you have this capability. You

426
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:46,879
Speaker 1: have this unit that does unconventional warfare. Um, you have

427
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:49,679
Speaker 1: this unit that does counter terrorism. And this is a

428
00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:52,200
Speaker 1: little bit about them and what they do and why.

429
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:54,880
Speaker 1: And that's really important because in a democracy, you need

430
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:57,800
Speaker 1: public support for these people for these capabilities, and these

431
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:01,920
Speaker 1: units need um, congressional support, they need congressional funding. So

432
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:04,399
Speaker 1: there has to be some sort of like engagement and

433
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:08,119
Speaker 1: back and forth, especially when UM, we live in a

434
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,720
Speaker 1: time where like what's the statistic like point zero five

435
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:15,239
Speaker 1: percent of Americans serving the militaries around that currently. I mean,

436
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:17,399
Speaker 1: we have a lot of veterans, but who are draftees

437
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,240
Speaker 1: from Vietnam and World War Two. But like people in

438
00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:23,639
Speaker 1: modern my generation, you know, a very small number of

439
00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:26,560
Speaker 1: Americans are serving, and a lot of those who serve

440
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,600
Speaker 1: are serving because their dads were in the military. So

441
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:33,280
Speaker 1: it becomes almost like a family tradition. UM. And so

442
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,159
Speaker 1: when you have so many people in America who have

443
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:38,879
Speaker 1: never served in the military, it becomes even more important

444
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:43,159
Speaker 1: to have that sort of UM education and public relations

445
00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:46,360
Speaker 1: to reach out to them and talk to them and say,

446
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:49,960
Speaker 1: these are your soldiers. They're they're serving you in your country,

447
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:52,600
Speaker 1: and you should know about them. It doesn't mean you

448
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:54,720
Speaker 1: have to know everything. It doesn't mean that you have

449
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:58,880
Speaker 1: to be a military you know nerd like I am.

450
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:01,320
Speaker 1: But you should know something about them, and you should

451
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:05,080
Speaker 1: know why we're sending these guys overseas and why some

452
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:07,720
Speaker 1: of them come home in body bags. You know. So

453
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:11,040
Speaker 1: that's really important. UM. But it does have negative aspects

454
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:13,800
Speaker 1: and it can turn into like a feeding frenzy. You

455
00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:17,160
Speaker 1: know there's um uh one person I know, a retired

456
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,159
Speaker 1: Special Forces officer, you know, he said, we call ourselves

457
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:23,639
Speaker 1: the quiet professionals. UM. That it can become a problem

458
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,600
Speaker 1: if we're the silent professionals and we say nothing, and

459
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:28,919
Speaker 1: he said, you know, the we should really put the

460
00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 1: emphasis on professional rather than quiet. You know, it's okay

461
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:35,760
Speaker 1: to talk, it's okay to um, you know, discuss what

462
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,439
Speaker 1: you did in the military, but we should probably be

463
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,120
Speaker 1: professional about it. And that's something that I've even thought

464
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:43,639
Speaker 1: about as I'm writing my memoir right now, which is

465
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 1: something I didn't want to do for a long time.

466
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,679
Speaker 1: But as I'm writing this book, I'm thinking about what

467
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:50,480
Speaker 1: do I want to say and how do I want

468
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,720
Speaker 1: to say it? And I, UM, I want to be

469
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:58,879
Speaker 1: candid and honest about you know, myself and mistakes I made,

470
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,239
Speaker 1: UM also about the good things I did, but I

471
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:04,520
Speaker 1: also want to be honest about the war in general

472
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:07,359
Speaker 1: and like what went right and what went wrong. But

473
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,080
Speaker 1: I don't want it to be like unprofessional. I don't

474
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:12,119
Speaker 1: want it to be like you know, a Facebook rant.

475
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:14,199
Speaker 1: You know, I don't really want it to be like that.

476
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,399
Speaker 1: So UM, that's something to think about, I think, and

477
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,679
Speaker 1: I think all veterans should um think about that. And

478
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:24,639
Speaker 1: I encouraged them to share their experiences UM and just

479
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,160
Speaker 1: think about how they want to represent themselves and how

480
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:29,960
Speaker 1: they want to represent the military. Uh. And the last

481
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 1: point I thought that that this are this reader brought up,

482
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:36,400
Speaker 1: which I think is very interesting, is about the enemy

483
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:40,679
Speaker 1: starting up Special Forces quote unquote units, and is that

484
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 1: because they saw too many Seal Team six television shows

485
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:48,400
Speaker 1: or something that's part of it. I do think that's

486
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:50,480
Speaker 1: part of it. That they see this is the cool thing,

487
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:53,400
Speaker 1: so we want to be cool too. I've seen cool

488
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:57,719
Speaker 1: guy videos that rebel groups made in Syria that are like,

489
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 1: holy crap, Like these guys are dressing like a Call

490
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:05,520
Speaker 1: of Duty characters. They're trying to look like American Special Operations.

491
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,119
Speaker 1: They're riding dirt bikes and they're going in and shooting

492
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,239
Speaker 1: up people. And I think part of that is they

493
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:14,160
Speaker 1: see RPR and they're trying to replicate it. The other

494
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 1: thing we have to consider is that there's been people

495
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:19,640
Speaker 1: like me, people like this writer, this guy who says

496
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 1: he's in Australian Special Operations. They've been over to Afghanistan.

497
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 1: And what's also happening is that the enemy is getting

498
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:30,119
Speaker 1: smarter by fighting us. So we fight them, they lose,

499
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,920
Speaker 1: they get their guys get killed, and they also learned

500
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:37,360
Speaker 1: from that experience. It's military Darwinism. So they're like, Okay,

501
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 1: we need to start doing what those guys do because

502
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 1: we want to win. So the enemy gets stronger by

503
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 1: fighting us. And there's also some counterinsurgency theory about this

504
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 1: um that whenever a strong power fights a weaker power,

505
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,200
Speaker 1: the stronger power gets weaker, the weaker power gets stronger.

506
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 1: There's some inverse relationships there. So that's a that's a

507
00:26:57,400 --> 00:26:59,159
Speaker 1: kind of a second and third word or effect of

508
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 1: the war on Terror. We also need to consider, well

509
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:03,919
Speaker 1: said man. I mean, if you guys heard that little

510
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 1: chirp as uh Jack was speaking before, that was actually

511
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 1: UM Army Sergeant Major Mike Vining, and he was saying,

512
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,280
Speaker 1: I'm set to go, let's bring him on, Let's give

513
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 1: him a call. So joining us for the first time

514
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 1: on Software Radio, and I know you're very excited for Jack.

515
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 1: I'm excited to have on the U S Army Sergeant

516
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:28,679
Speaker 1: Major Mike Vining, one of the original Delta Force operators,

517
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 1: attended the first ever Operators Training course, which is OTC,

518
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,399
Speaker 1: and he's now working at the National e O D

519
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 1: Association and the e O D Warrior Foundation. And it's

520
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 1: an honor to have you on sir, thank you. I'm

521
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 1: glad to be on. Yeah, thanks Mike. I mean it's uh,

522
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:48,879
Speaker 1: you know you uh, you know, just for some of

523
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 1: the readers who perhaps are familiar. You know, Sergeant Major

524
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 1: Vining helped me out a little bit when I was writing,

525
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 1: uh an article about blue Light, which was, um, you know,

526
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 1: one of America's first counter terrorism units and uh, Mike

527
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 1: Vining was one of the original Delta Force operators. So

528
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 1: to kind of understand the history of counter terrorism, I

529
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:10,919
Speaker 1: think you have to understand both of these units and

530
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,919
Speaker 1: the interplay between the two of them. So, you know,

531
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 1: I found that Sergeant Major Vining just has a wealth

532
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,919
Speaker 1: of knowledge and a lot of information. You know, Like

533
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 1: I've said in the past, this is like a living history.

534
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 1: You know, these things aren't necessarily written down in books,

535
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:27,439
Speaker 1: and if you want to understand them, you have to

536
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:29,359
Speaker 1: go and find the actual people who are there and

537
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 1: uh and maybe they'll talk to you and um, you know.

538
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 1: So I just wanted to have h Sergeant Major Vining

539
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 1: on today to really discuss, you know, his military career.

540
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 1: He served for a long time, um, continues to stay

541
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 1: engaged in the community, and UM, I just think he

542
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 1: has a fascinating experience. Thanks. Thanks jack Um. Do you

543
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 1: want to talk about you know, your service began and

544
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 1: uh in the Vietnam War. You want to talk a

545
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:00,959
Speaker 1: little bit about how you came into the military and

546
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 1: some of your early experiences and e O. D. Sure. Yeah.

547
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 1: I came into the Army in nineteen I had just

548
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 1: graduated from high school. Two weeks after I graduation high

549
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 1: school had joined the Army. UM. So I was interested

550
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 1: in the Army bomb disposal program, but you couldn't enlist

551
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 1: for it. You had to enlist for another school and

552
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 1: have an MS before you were selected to go to

553
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 1: the explosive Ordinance Disposal program. So I went in the Army,

554
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 1: went to Basic Training Fort Knox. I took my A

555
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 1: I t at red Stone, which was Ammunition Renovation Charlie

556
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 1: UH so that I would learn about ammunition. And it

557
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 1: was there during the part of the school we had

558
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 1: to go out to the e O. D Range and

559
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:06,320
Speaker 1: dispose of munitions that were unserviceable. E O. D. Taught

560
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 1: us how to dispose of these unserviceable munitions, and of

561
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 1: course they asked for volunteers and then I volunteered. So

562
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 1: right from the school, Ammunition school I went into went

563
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 1: down to Fort mccollin for two weeks Phase one e

564
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 1: O D school, Chemical phase bio phase, and then went

565
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 1: to the Surface School Indian Head, Maryland. And uh, that's

566
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 1: about a twelve fourteen week school Indian Head in Maryland.

567
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 1: And uh, it's the proponent for video D is the Navy.

568
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 1: The Navy runs the school today the school is at

569
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 1: Egglin Air Force Base and the Navy is still the

570
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 1: proponent for e O D. And uh. Then after you

571
00:30:55,240 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 1: O D School, I went to tech Escort in Edgewood, Arsenal, Maryland. Um,

572
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 1: but I really wanted to go to Vietnam. That was

573
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 1: the whole purpose of me and listing Um, was to

574
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 1: go to Vietnam to serve my country and to see

575
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 1: what the ground truth was in Vietnam. You know, a

576
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 1: lot of people talked about whether we should be there

577
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 1: or not. Most of those people who talked about it

578
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 1: never were there. Um, And so I wanted to find

579
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 1: out for myself. So I put in paperwork three times

580
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 1: before I got orders came down on orders for Vietnam.

581
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:39,720
Speaker 1: So so you were you had to you know, Luckily,

582
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 1: you know a lot of draftees kind of went straight

583
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 1: to Vietnam after their initial training. It sounds like, you know,

584
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 1: you had quite a bit of training before you landed

585
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 1: in Vietnam. Well, yes, in the U D program, they

586
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 1: wanted you to before you They didn't want to send

587
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 1: you right from e O D School to Vietnam. They

588
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 1: wanted you to spend a east a year in the

589
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 1: field working doing E O D work prior to going

590
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 1: to Vietnam. Now that changed later in the war, and

591
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 1: I knew several people that went right from school to Vietnam.

592
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 1: But they wanted you to have at least year's experience

593
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 1: before you went to Vietnam. And when you when you

594
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 1: arrived in country, Um, and you started to do your job.

595
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 1: I know you were involved in disposing of some fairly large,

596
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 1: you know, caches of enemy munitions. What did you find

597
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 1: in Vietnam? What? What was the ground truth you uncovered there?

598
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 1: What was the ground truth in Vietnam? Um? My opinion

599
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 1: was that, you know, in the rural countryside, it didn't

600
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 1: matter who, what, what form of government was in Saigon. Um,

601
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 1: they were still going to go out and harvest their rice,

602
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 1: and and life was still gonna you know, they were

603
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:04,600
Speaker 1: just trying to lived subsistence out in the real country.

604
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 1: You know, you had a corrupt government, pretty corrupt in place. Um.

605
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 1: You know, I didn't know all about the you know,

606
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 1: the reasons why and stuff like that. But as far

607
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 1: as e O D went, I learned in one year,

608
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 1: you know, I learned, But what you know, it would

609
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 1: probably take at least ten years to learn state side.

610
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 1: It was an intense one year. What as a you know,

611
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 1: bomb disposal technician, what was you know, your actual job?

612
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 1: What did that consist of? I mean, I can certainly

613
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 1: talk about some of the experiences are seeing e O D.

614
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 1: Guys work in Iraq when I was over there. But

615
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 1: what was it like for Vietnam? Um doing your job there? Well,

616
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 1: I I was signed to the ninety nine Ordinance Detachment

617
00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 1: EO D. At FuG then Uh is also known as

618
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 1: Camp gor Vad. It was later changed to Cap Casey,

619
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 1: named after General Casey of the First Calf who died

620
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 1: I think in May nine seventy his plane, his helicopter

621
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:17,880
Speaker 1: and they ran into a mountain and everybody on board

622
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:21,800
Speaker 1: his helicopter was killed. So they named Fire Support Base

623
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 1: after him. This for the job, we would were like

624
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:31,799
Speaker 1: a fire department we had a ten man unit. We

625
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,399
Speaker 1: would wait for the call to come in. Some unit

626
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:38,840
Speaker 1: would request, usually through the brigade. First we supported for

627
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 1: all of first Calves, First Calorie Divisions operations UH in

628
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 1: the northwest corner of three Corps. We supported a little

629
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 1: bit of first Infantry Division in our area and one

630
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:55,359
Speaker 1: ninety ninth Light Infantry Brigade. So anybody called us they

631
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 1: had a booby trap, they came across an enemy bunker

632
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:03,440
Speaker 1: complex that was booby trapped, before they would move in.

633
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 1: They would call us. UM if they found some tunnels

634
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:12,280
Speaker 1: and stuff that proved too dangerous, like in one case,

635
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 1: this office lieutenant went into a tunnel and there was

636
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,240
Speaker 1: booby trapped. He was actually blown out of the tunnel

637
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:25,279
Speaker 1: grenade and wounded and invact and meta act. So after that,

638
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:27,719
Speaker 1: nobody would go into the tunnel, So then we went

639
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 1: into the tunnel. UM. You know, if they find dead

640
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:35,360
Speaker 1: ordinance out in the field, like a five pound bomb

641
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 1: that didn't go off, they call us and we'd get

642
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:41,320
Speaker 1: rid of it and you know, the enemy cash sites

643
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:47,960
Speaker 1: were dispose of it. Any any problem like that with ordinance,

644
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:49,880
Speaker 1: they would give us a call and we would fly in.

645
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:54,960
Speaker 1: Normally in two man teams. Uh, they would provide us transportation.

646
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 1: We'd go to the helicopter, pad, get on the helicopter,

647
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 1: go in, link up with the team. Sometimes have to

648
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,799
Speaker 1: walk into the site and do the mission and fly

649
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 1: out and go to the next mission. Most missions just

650
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:12,279
Speaker 1: were day missions, but some of the missions were as

651
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 1: long as a week. That must have been a pretty

652
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,840
Speaker 1: interesting experience as a young man that, you know, you

653
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:20,239
Speaker 1: suddenly have a lot of responsibility put on you and

654
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:24,799
Speaker 1: you're working. It sounds like just you and one other guy. Yes,

655
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 1: we operated just usually in two man teams. Depending you know,

656
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:32,239
Speaker 1: we might request more O d uh, depending on the

657
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 1: size of the operation, would ask for help. But normally

658
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:40,560
Speaker 1: we would fly in. We would have three days worth

659
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:44,160
Speaker 1: the food and water that we would carry. I carry

660
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 1: two haversacks one to two haversacks of explosives, so either

661
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:53,719
Speaker 1: pounds of C four priming systems and everything, and we'd

662
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 1: fly in. If we needed anything more than that, the

663
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 1: unit that was on the ground would have to supply

664
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 1: us with more explosives, bring it in and after after

665
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:07,400
Speaker 1: your year in Vietnam, you know when you returned home, Well,

666
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:09,399
Speaker 1: could you talk a little bit about coming back home

667
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 1: and I could take it. You wanted to remain in

668
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 1: the military, No, I didn't. I am Vietnam war was

669
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:22,319
Speaker 1: winding down. When I got I was asked to extend

670
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,319
Speaker 1: UH and I was asked to do some work, classified

671
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:31,240
Speaker 1: work in Cambodia where you'd wear civilian clothes. But everything

672
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:34,759
Speaker 1: was winding down, so I didn't think the military was

673
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:40,319
Speaker 1: for me. So I actually was discharged after and I

674
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 1: was out for two and a half years. UH. I

675
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 1: went to Michigan. I worked for its company that as

676
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:53,640
Speaker 1: a press operator building stamping out body parts for Ford

677
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:58,839
Speaker 1: cars in Michigan. UM. But after two and a half

678
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 1: years of doing that and seeing that this job was

679
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 1: really a you know, going nowhere is a good paying job,

680
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 1: but really I wasn't satisfied. UM, I tried to go

681
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 1: back in. And this is course after Vietnam, you know,

682
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 1: the army was downsizing. At first they said, um, I

683
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:19,200
Speaker 1: couldn't go back into the army. They said they weren't

684
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:22,279
Speaker 1: taking anybody. But then when I checked later, they said

685
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 1: that I could go back in, but it'd have to

686
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:25,919
Speaker 1: go back in as e O D. And I said

687
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:29,920
Speaker 1: that's great. So I went back in in October of

688
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:33,479
Speaker 1: seventy three and I was assigned to the sixty three

689
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:37,239
Speaker 1: Ordinance Detachment EO D at Fort leonard Wood, Missouri. I

690
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 1: was wondering if you wanted to talk a little bit

691
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,840
Speaker 1: about your friend um Ken Foster who passed away in

692
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 1: what you know what today the public knows quite well

693
00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:48,880
Speaker 1: as an I E D. At that time. I you know,

694
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,080
Speaker 1: I imagine it wasn't something that's in the public consciousness

695
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 1: the way it is today. No, it wasn't. Uh one

696
00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 1: of the things you do in E O D. Is

697
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,480
Speaker 1: you do uh secrets of HISS V I P support

698
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 1: You know all today all four services provide support for

699
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 1: bomb disposal, support for Secret Service, the military. Does you know,

700
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:16,239
Speaker 1: to go into any place of building that he's got,

701
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 1: there's a speaking engagement. It's the military U D that

702
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 1: worked with the Secret Service that go in and help

703
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 1: clear that area and then stand by in case something's discovered.

704
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 1: So nineteen seventy six I spent the that year basically

705
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:37,360
Speaker 1: on the road doing Secret Service support the presidential campaign

706
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 1: of nineteen seventy six. It was in Quincy, Illinois in

707
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:47,399
Speaker 1: October of seventy six. I don't recall the exact day,

708
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:54,239
Speaker 1: but we were. Senator Bob Dole was speaking in Quincy, Illinois.

709
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 1: He was running for Ford as Ford's vice president. So

710
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:03,600
Speaker 1: we he was speaking at the high school. And uh

711
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:09,279
Speaker 1: so after his speaking engagement was done that evening, Ken

712
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 1: Foster and I, we were working as a two man team,

713
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:15,479
Speaker 1: we went to help to eat for supper and while

714
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:19,240
Speaker 1: we were eating, we heard explosions going off in town.

715
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:26,919
Speaker 1: So they County Sheriff, the Secret Service and another two

716
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 1: man you D team responded to these the explosion site.

717
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:36,000
Speaker 1: One at a bridge. Uh there was four explosions at

718
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 1: this um. There's three explosions at this cult compressor factory.

719
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 1: And they just went and responded, you know, just seeing

720
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 1: a lot of damage at the bridge and at the factory.

721
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 1: But there at that time there was no threat called in.

722
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:57,719
Speaker 1: There was just these explosions going off in town. So

723
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 1: the next morning, uh, Senator Doe was leaving by charter

724
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:04,920
Speaker 1: plane at the airport. We searched all the luggage and

725
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:08,280
Speaker 1: stuff that was going on the charter plane. And uh

726
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:10,759
Speaker 1: while we were doing that, a bomb threat came in

727
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:15,759
Speaker 1: against Senator Dole at the airport and so but we

728
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 1: knew we had searched everything. We did a good job.

729
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:20,799
Speaker 1: So we said, there's nothing more here to do. So

730
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:24,760
Speaker 1: they got on the airplane and took off and everything

731
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 1: was fine. County Sheriff asked us to go out after

732
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 1: we got released from Secret Service support, to go out

733
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 1: and look at the damage and just to give our

734
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:38,799
Speaker 1: opinion of what took place that night. So we went

735
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 1: out there and at the cold compressor factory, the fire

736
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:46,080
Speaker 1: they were doing a continued the search the fire department

737
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:48,600
Speaker 1: was and then they found another bomb that had not

738
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 1: gone off. I E ed or back then it was

739
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:56,480
Speaker 1: just a homemade momb It was several sticks of dynamite,

740
00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 1: a large alarm clock, a six vote battery. So they

741
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:05,880
Speaker 1: took a polaroid of it and where the bomb was

742
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:09,280
Speaker 1: actually placed in a trailer of a truck. The whole

743
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 1: trailer of this truck was a compressor. That's what they

744
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 1: made at the factory. So they took a picture. Then

745
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 1: they closed the sliding door on the bomb, and then

746
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 1: when we got there, we were told that they had

747
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:27,239
Speaker 1: found a bomb that had not exploded, and then we

748
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 1: sat look at the polaroid picture. But you had to

749
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 1: walk down between these parked truck trailers narrow and uh

750
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:39,520
Speaker 1: so Ken Foster said he'd go down and do a recon.

751
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:43,600
Speaker 1: The Illinois Arson Inspector was there. He he wanted to

752
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:46,560
Speaker 1: go down and look at it too. They were just

753
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 1: going down for a recon. I was getting the tools

754
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:52,600
Speaker 1: ready in case we have to do something. So Ken

755
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:56,480
Speaker 1: went down. The arts inspector stayed out of little ways.

756
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:01,239
Speaker 1: Ken went down opening up the sliding door in No,

757
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:05,080
Speaker 1: we don't know exactly what happened, but we believe when

758
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:07,400
Speaker 1: he opened up the sliding door, he looked at the

759
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 1: alarm clock. And what they had done is took a

760
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 1: screw put it through the face of the clock, and

761
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:15,680
Speaker 1: so it was when one of the hands on the

762
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:20,279
Speaker 1: clock hits the screw, it connects the deta. I can't

763
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:28,319
Speaker 1: imagine that time delay, but what but what happens sometimes

764
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:33,040
Speaker 1: is what these people. There's usually paint or varnish on

765
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 1: the hands, so it doesn't make good electrical contact. So

766
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:40,480
Speaker 1: we believe the bombs were all went off about the

767
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 1: same time. This one had timed down but failed to

768
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 1: go off. It wasn't making good electrical contact, so I

769
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 1: believe Kan thought he needed to do something right then.

770
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:55,600
Speaker 1: So normally what you do is remove the blasting cap

771
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:58,279
Speaker 1: try to remove it out of the dynamite. I think

772
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:01,800
Speaker 1: that's what he was trying to do, and that slight

773
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:05,080
Speaker 1: movement just moved it enough so it made better electrical

774
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:09,799
Speaker 1: contact and it detonated, killing Ken instantly. That has got

775
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:12,320
Speaker 1: to be one scary job. Yeah, I mean you're staring

776
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 1: down the barrel of a gun so to speak. Yes,

777
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:21,040
Speaker 1: so yeah, but once they found that bomb, they stopped

778
00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 1: searching for any other explosive devices, so before you know,

779
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:29,560
Speaker 1: there was nothing. Ken was killed instantly. He was very

780
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 1: close to the explosion site and um so we had

781
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:36,520
Speaker 1: to continue to make sure the area was safe and

782
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:39,800
Speaker 1: then we got the corner down there and put Ken

783
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:42,680
Speaker 1: in a body bag. So we had you know, there

784
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 1: was four of us on the team. We had drove

785
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:49,720
Speaker 1: up from four Bragg to Quincy, Illinois, and then only

786
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:55,280
Speaker 1: three of us, you know, drove back. So that's lonely. Also,

787
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:59,440
Speaker 1: I didn't after that bomb went off and killed Ken,

788
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 1: another bomb threat came in at the high school, so

789
00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 1: they had to evacuate the high school. So we went

790
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:10,960
Speaker 1: to the high school and we contact you know a

791
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 1: few teachers and people and like the janitors and told

792
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:16,840
Speaker 1: them to quit you know, look at you know, go

793
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 1: around the building in high school to see if there's

794
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:22,840
Speaker 1: something there that's out of place, that's not normally supposed

795
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:25,080
Speaker 1: to be there, because you know, we go into a

796
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:27,440
Speaker 1: high school, you know, we don't know what's supposed to

797
00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 1: be there and not supposed to be there. So the

798
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:32,400
Speaker 1: people that worked there no better. So they did a

799
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:36,279
Speaker 1: search of the building and found nothing, but had a

800
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:39,600
Speaker 1: couple more bomb threats come in and then we were

801
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:43,600
Speaker 1: relieved by another E O D team from Granite City, Illinois.

802
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:49,279
Speaker 1: What was the motivation for the bombing, you know, I

803
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:54,839
Speaker 1: don't know that today. It was a two juveniles, teenagers

804
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:59,480
Speaker 1: and a I think he was twenty eight year old, uh,

805
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:03,840
Speaker 1: that had planted the bombs there. The juveniles were acquitted

806
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:10,279
Speaker 1: in trial. Uh. The the twenty eight year old. Trying

807
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:13,040
Speaker 1: to think of what his sense was, it was a

808
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:16,239
Speaker 1: he didn't he didn't get a sentence for murder. It

809
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:21,800
Speaker 1: was for a manslaughter or charge because he didn't intend

810
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 1: to hurt anybody. He was just destroying property. I think

811
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:31,759
Speaker 1: his ex girl, former girlfriend worked there. Um, she's the

812
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:37,160
Speaker 1: one that actually tipped off the police and turned her

813
00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 1: boy ex boyfriend in And so basically he had spent

814
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 1: a few years in jail, and just recently the guy

815
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 1: who planted the bombs, his daughter contacted me just I

816
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:55,640
Speaker 1: mean just maybe a month or two ago, and she

817
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:59,399
Speaker 1: emailed me. And she was ten years old at the time.

818
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:04,279
Speaker 1: Her dad did that, and she had heard stories, but

819
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 1: she never she never knew she was I knew the truth.

820
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:12,280
Speaker 1: So she mailed me and wanted to know the truth,

821
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:15,920
Speaker 1: what happened, what did her dad do really do and

822
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:19,719
Speaker 1: all that. So I gave her a copy of my report,

823
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 1: and I gave her a copy of the newspaper, clipping

824
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:27,759
Speaker 1: scan copies and gave it to her. That was kind

825
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:31,480
Speaker 1: of interesting being hearing from the guy who built the

826
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 1: bomb's daughter asked, I mean, it's kind of the past

827
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:38,880
Speaker 1: coming full circle. You know. It is this gentleman was

828
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:42,279
Speaker 1: killed all those years ago, Ken Foster, and you know

829
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:47,640
Speaker 1: it continues to haunt the people involved. Yeah, and his

830
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:52,240
Speaker 1: daughter apologized for her dad. You know, it's just sorry

831
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 1: that her dad did all that. And each one of

832
00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:59,719
Speaker 1: these experiences in Vietnam and then the presidential campaign. I

833
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 1: mean it sounds like was a learning experience for you

834
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:04,759
Speaker 1: as an e O D tech and UM and I

835
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:08,839
Speaker 1: wanted to ask you next, you know, how did you

836
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 1: you know it's the nineteen seventies. How did you initially

837
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:16,439
Speaker 1: hear or learn that there was some sort of new

838
00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:19,080
Speaker 1: outfit being stood up, that there's some sort of counter

839
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:22,120
Speaker 1: terrorism endeavor? How did you come to be involved in

840
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:26,760
Speaker 1: all of that? That's a good question. I was actually

841
00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:30,319
Speaker 1: getting bored with State Side e O D. Going down

842
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:34,280
Speaker 1: to the hand garnade range and destroying the hand garnade

843
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:36,880
Speaker 1: that somebody throw down range that forgot to pull the

844
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 1: pin out, or and they would wait till the end

845
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 1: of the day to call and say they got a

846
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:44,879
Speaker 1: dead grenade down at the end and on the hand

847
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:50,440
Speaker 1: grenade range. Um, it was just getting boring state Side

848
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:54,600
Speaker 1: e O D in the nineteen seventies. So I decided

849
00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:57,960
Speaker 1: I wanted to go into Special Forces. I took e

850
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:02,400
Speaker 1: m T training after Kena UM. There was nothing I

851
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:05,080
Speaker 1: could have done even with e m T training, but

852
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:07,439
Speaker 1: I didn't went through the U D pro I mean

853
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:12,719
Speaker 1: the Emergency Medical Technician program UM. And then I wanted

854
00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:16,319
Speaker 1: to go to Special Forces as a medic. I put

855
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:21,000
Speaker 1: in a request for medic Special Forces school and it

856
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:25,399
Speaker 1: was approved and I had a school day. Meanwhile, uh,

857
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:30,759
Speaker 1: sergeant major at our Control Detachment got wind of a

858
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:34,319
Speaker 1: new unit being formed up at Fort Bragg and they

859
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:37,839
Speaker 1: were looking for some E O D texts to join

860
00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:42,319
Speaker 1: the unit. They wanted six U U D texts, preferably

861
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:48,640
Speaker 1: n C O s that had Vietnam experience. So the

862
00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:52,279
Speaker 1: sergeant major gave me the phone number. I called up

863
00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 1: and talked to an admin guy at Fort Bragg at

864
00:49:56,800 --> 00:50:00,759
Speaker 1: the stock A the old Butler's Buttoner Road, the old

865
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:04,960
Speaker 1: socaid there at Fort Bragg, and they asked told him

866
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 1: who I was, you know a little bit about myself,

867
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:10,400
Speaker 1: and they said would you want to come for an interview?

868
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:13,440
Speaker 1: And I said, sure, I'd come to. So I came

869
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:17,439
Speaker 1: to for an interview, and then two weeks later I

870
00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:20,400
Speaker 1: was assigned to this new unit being formed up at

871
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:25,480
Speaker 1: Fort Bragg. Colonel Charlie back With was the commanding officer.

872
00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:30,400
Speaker 1: And UH, that was the beginning of the first Special

873
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:35,680
Speaker 1: Forces Operational Detachment DELTA. And at what point did you

874
00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:37,799
Speaker 1: get wind that, like, actually, this was kind of a

875
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:41,880
Speaker 1: big deal, this unit that you just volunteered for. I

876
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:49,680
Speaker 1: got with the sergeant major UH gave me up phone number.

877
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:53,120
Speaker 1: I called, and within maybe two or three days I

878
00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 1: had t d Y orders to go to Fort Bragg

879
00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 1: for an interview. UM. I went from my interview. Two

880
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:04,440
Speaker 1: weeks after the interview, I was signed. It was to

881
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:08,600
Speaker 1: the unit that was b March of nineteen seventy eight.

882
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 1: I was assigned. The units formed up in November of

883
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:20,319
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy seven UH on smoke Bomb Hill. They had

884
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:26,160
Speaker 1: an old World War two m barracks that they started up.

885
00:51:26,239 --> 00:51:29,120
Speaker 1: Then then they got the stockade. There was about two

886
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:32,000
Speaker 1: or three prisoners in the stockade. They put him in

887
00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:35,879
Speaker 1: the county jail, Cumberland County Jail, and we took over

888
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:39,520
Speaker 1: the stock aide. So it was kind of and we

889
00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:42,320
Speaker 1: had to take up, you know, going there with torches,

890
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:46,480
Speaker 1: cut out the jail cells and re and we did

891
00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:50,640
Speaker 1: all the work ourselves to remodify the stockade that turned

892
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:55,400
Speaker 1: it into our headquarters. What was that like those first

893
00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:58,319
Speaker 1: couple of years that, you know, standing up any unit

894
00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:02,280
Speaker 1: from scratch, um, you know, if I helped stand up UM,

895
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:05,640
Speaker 1: you know my battalion in fifth Special Forces Group, I mean,

896
00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:08,719
Speaker 1: it's it's always a painful experience. Well, what was that

897
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:11,360
Speaker 1: like for you standing up this new unit and building

898
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:14,280
Speaker 1: this new capability that America didn't have at the time.

899
00:52:15,560 --> 00:52:17,960
Speaker 1: It was it was it was really interesting. It was

900
00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:21,960
Speaker 1: a UM we they were getting ready as soon as

901
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:24,840
Speaker 1: we got there, they were getting ready to start the

902
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:28,839
Speaker 1: first Operator Training Course O t C one. So we

903
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:32,320
Speaker 1: went through. We did the you know, we did a

904
00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:36,240
Speaker 1: eighteen mile night road march, the five event PT test,

905
00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:39,680
Speaker 1: the swim test. The O D guys that were selected

906
00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:42,040
Speaker 1: to go through O t C we did not go

907
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:45,399
Speaker 1: through the selection Assessment course that the other guys did.

908
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:50,600
Speaker 1: We just jumped in with it through the Operator Training

909
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:54,360
Speaker 1: course and so that was like a five month program,

910
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:58,040
Speaker 1: the Operator Training Course, and then after we finished the

911
00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:01,520
Speaker 1: Operator Training course, then the D folks that went through

912
00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:05,440
Speaker 1: had to go through and pass the Selection Assessment course

913
00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:08,200
Speaker 1: that fall fall of seventy eight. So we kind of

914
00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:11,040
Speaker 1: did it backwards. We went to we went to O

915
00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:14,959
Speaker 1: t C, then we went to Selection Assessment. Not only

916
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:19,160
Speaker 1: two of us made it through Selection Assessment No TC

917
00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:22,120
Speaker 1: one E O D types and then we had to

918
00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:25,640
Speaker 1: go to jump school. Yeah, you're right, so you did

919
00:53:25,719 --> 00:53:30,799
Speaker 1: in reverse order we did, and uh, what what did it?

920
00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:33,000
Speaker 1: What was OTC like at that point I learned in

921
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:36,880
Speaker 1: a previous conversation you mentioned how UM you know, a

922
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:39,000
Speaker 1: gentleman from the S A S had come down and

923
00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:43,120
Speaker 1: helped teach marksmanship, and there's a lot of skill sets

924
00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:45,600
Speaker 1: that I've come to learn that the Brits were actually

925
00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:47,839
Speaker 1: a little bit further ahead of us at that point

926
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:52,759
Speaker 1: in time. They were um Uh. Colonel Beckworth had spent

927
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:56,080
Speaker 1: time with the British s A S. So he would

928
00:53:56,120 --> 00:54:01,040
Speaker 1: and he modeled us after the British S A S. Uh.

929
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:06,120
Speaker 1: The d c O. Bucky Burris, he he had actually

930
00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:09,440
Speaker 1: gone through the S A S School, the complete school,

931
00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:13,000
Speaker 1: and spent time with the S A S. So we

932
00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:18,680
Speaker 1: were our selection assessment, our training, everything was modeled on

933
00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:21,839
Speaker 1: the British S A S. We had instructors come over

934
00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:25,640
Speaker 1: from the S A S and teach us marksmanship where

935
00:54:25,680 --> 00:54:29,520
Speaker 1: we learned how to double tap. The biggest thing that

936
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:32,560
Speaker 1: we we would shoot. One of the things that was

937
00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:36,759
Speaker 1: funny is that three by five cards. Our targets were

938
00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:40,120
Speaker 1: three by five I don't we shot up a bunch

939
00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:44,200
Speaker 1: of three by five cards, but uh, that was our

940
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:48,840
Speaker 1: main targets to hit hit that small of an area.

941
00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:52,720
Speaker 1: Did a lot of shooting. Usually all all the morning

942
00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:57,120
Speaker 1: were spent in some form of shooting, whether it be

943
00:54:57,160 --> 00:54:59,920
Speaker 1: out in the rain shooting with forty five or shoot

944
00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:04,439
Speaker 1: with our M three grease guns. That's what we had

945
00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:07,399
Speaker 1: for an assault rifle, was the M three grease gun.

946
00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:10,799
Speaker 1: And and back With had all of our sites cut

947
00:55:10,840 --> 00:55:16,600
Speaker 1: off our grease guns, so we had to instinctively fire. Um.

948
00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:19,280
Speaker 1: So there was a lot of funny stuff. We played

949
00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:23,560
Speaker 1: a lot of football for Pt. Back with be out

950
00:55:23,560 --> 00:55:25,440
Speaker 1: there with the whistle, you know he was. He was

951
00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:29,080
Speaker 1: on the football team when he went to University of Georgia,

952
00:55:29,239 --> 00:55:32,080
Speaker 1: So we were out there. We would play football through

953
00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:35,880
Speaker 1: the wall. Um. We did a lot of brick pete

954
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:40,680
Speaker 1: and brick pet is that we had these red bricks

955
00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:44,239
Speaker 1: and we would have to hold them straight out and

956
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:51,000
Speaker 1: do different exercises arm strengthening exercises with these red bricks. Uh,

957
00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:54,719
Speaker 1: it was. It was quite interesting. Could you talk a

958
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:57,080
Speaker 1: little bit about your teammates in the unit, that first

959
00:55:57,200 --> 00:55:59,239
Speaker 1: generation of guys. I mean, who were these men? What

960
00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:02,319
Speaker 1: were they like? Well, most a lot of them were

961
00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:07,080
Speaker 1: Special Forces in rangers UM and came in a lot

962
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:09,839
Speaker 1: of them. We had a few them that were on

963
00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:17,120
Speaker 1: the Sante Raid. UM. Jack Joplin was on the Sante Raid.

964
00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:21,839
Speaker 1: Dick Meadows was on Sante raid Um. So we had

965
00:56:21,880 --> 00:56:25,240
Speaker 1: a lot of guys that spent UH in Fifth Group

966
00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:30,880
Speaker 1: in Vietnam UM and we had rangers and so. But

967
00:56:31,040 --> 00:56:34,239
Speaker 1: back with his vision for a counter terrorist unit was

968
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:37,799
Speaker 1: that he did not want to be locked in with

969
00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:42,520
Speaker 1: certain moss. He wanted to recruit army wide because in

970
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:48,800
Speaker 1: a seat in going say undercover, low low visibility, you

971
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:53,800
Speaker 1: might have to pose as a cook, as a heavy

972
00:56:53,800 --> 00:57:00,359
Speaker 1: equipment driver, uh, different skill sets for counter terror as them,

973
00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:04,960
Speaker 1: and so he so he wasn't locked in from recruiting

974
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:10,799
Speaker 1: just the rangers and special forces, but he wanted to

975
00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:15,080
Speaker 1: have at least six e O D folks incorporated, you know,

976
00:57:15,239 --> 00:57:19,400
Speaker 1: going through the operator training course, being operators first and

977
00:57:19,520 --> 00:57:21,960
Speaker 1: having the skill e O D skill set in case

978
00:57:23,240 --> 00:57:27,720
Speaker 1: there was booby traps, UH, hostages with body bombs that

979
00:57:27,920 --> 00:57:31,720
Speaker 1: would have to be removed or you know that kind

980
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:36,640
Speaker 1: of stuff. So it was a very close knit and

981
00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:40,160
Speaker 1: we still are very close knit. Those first group of

982
00:57:40,200 --> 00:57:43,720
Speaker 1: guys that went through, I still email and talked to

983
00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:49,120
Speaker 1: them regularly. At that time, what was what was the threat?

984
00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:51,640
Speaker 1: What was it What was the perception of what your

985
00:57:51,720 --> 00:57:54,480
Speaker 1: unit was going to have to deal with downrange? When

986
00:57:54,560 --> 00:57:58,360
Speaker 1: something popped off. Well, you know, our uncle, we had

987
00:57:58,360 --> 00:58:04,600
Speaker 1: an unclassified mission our and our unclassified mission was POW rescue.

988
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:06,919
Speaker 1: You know, there was still the thought that there might

989
00:58:06,960 --> 00:58:11,840
Speaker 1: be some POW is being held in Southeast Asia. Uh.

990
00:58:12,080 --> 00:58:17,120
Speaker 1: Hostage taking was the big game in town terrorists taking

991
00:58:17,160 --> 00:58:24,040
Speaker 1: over aircraft with hostages, um, and trains and like in

992
00:58:23,800 --> 00:58:27,360
Speaker 1: the in the Holland with the Malaccans they took over

993
00:58:27,440 --> 00:58:33,120
Speaker 1: a train. Uh. So it was mainly counter terrorism and

994
00:58:33,480 --> 00:58:37,440
Speaker 1: hostage rescue, you know, doing a lot of room clearing,

995
00:58:38,200 --> 00:58:44,760
Speaker 1: close quarter battle firing. Um, that's what we were mainly

996
00:58:44,840 --> 00:58:50,640
Speaker 1: concentrating in. And then as you know, as Delta got established,

997
00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:54,200
Speaker 1: do you want to talk about the first mission that

998
00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:58,000
Speaker 1: came down that the unit was assigned. Yeah, we were

999
00:58:58,080 --> 00:59:01,840
Speaker 1: just we just became Valida. It didn't as a unit.

1000
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:07,200
Speaker 1: Uh And um, well we I was in B squad

1001
00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:10,880
Speaker 1: and we were actually out in breck and Ridge, Colorado,

1002
00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:17,080
Speaker 1: ski and doing winter training. And when on November four,

1003
00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:21,440
Speaker 1: the for the second time, the Iranians took over the

1004
00:59:21,480 --> 00:59:26,360
Speaker 1: American embassy. That would have been November four, nineteen seventy nine,

1005
00:59:27,280 --> 00:59:30,680
Speaker 1: and they it was supposed to be that, I guess,

1006
00:59:30,680 --> 00:59:33,920
Speaker 1: and initially it was just a short takeover, but it

1007
00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:38,000
Speaker 1: became a siege. And so they had collected a bunch

1008
00:59:38,040 --> 00:59:42,840
Speaker 1: of hostages, American hostages at the embassy. Uh some of

1009
00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:49,480
Speaker 1: them were later released. Uh that everybody, uh, the African Americans,

1010
00:59:49,640 --> 00:59:56,440
Speaker 1: all except for one was released. Um. So that in

1011
00:59:56,520 --> 01:00:00,240
Speaker 1: the end they had fifty three hostages. Fifty being held

1012
01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:04,400
Speaker 1: at the American Embassy and three was were held at

1013
01:00:04,440 --> 01:00:09,680
Speaker 1: the Defense Ministers building, Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Ministry of

1014
01:00:09,720 --> 01:00:13,800
Speaker 1: Foreign Affairs. The three had gone over there for a meeting. Uh,

1015
01:00:14,200 --> 01:00:18,600
Speaker 1: the the charge de Fair how you just say that

1016
01:00:19,200 --> 01:00:25,840
Speaker 1: he was there Langley Langley, And so we had two

1017
01:00:25,880 --> 01:00:32,439
Speaker 1: different locations and fifty three hostages. So immediately we were

1018
01:00:32,480 --> 01:00:35,520
Speaker 1: called back from We didn't know what was going on.

1019
01:00:35,800 --> 01:00:38,640
Speaker 1: They just told us to go back to Fort Bragg immediately.

1020
01:00:38,760 --> 01:00:43,240
Speaker 1: So we flew back to Fort Bragg, landed at mccamp McCall,

1021
01:00:44,120 --> 01:00:48,919
Speaker 1: and they took us into isolation and we started being

1022
01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:54,000
Speaker 1: briefed what happened hostage taking, and we started immediately doing

1023
01:00:54,200 --> 01:00:58,720
Speaker 1: the planning. We had a three D model made up

1024
01:00:58,760 --> 01:01:02,560
Speaker 1: of the embassy camp own the buildings. You had models

1025
01:01:02,560 --> 01:01:04,640
Speaker 1: of the buildings that you could take apart and look

1026
01:01:04,680 --> 01:01:08,000
Speaker 1: at the different rooms. It was a huge like a

1027
01:01:08,080 --> 01:01:10,959
Speaker 1: ten ft by ten ft mock up of the whole

1028
01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:16,880
Speaker 1: compound um and then we started practicing. There was a

1029
01:01:16,920 --> 01:01:20,600
Speaker 1: lot of different options of how we would go in

1030
01:01:20,920 --> 01:01:25,160
Speaker 1: and do it. One was to do you know, go

1031
01:01:25,280 --> 01:01:29,480
Speaker 1: in and do a static line jump, uh, and then

1032
01:01:29,560 --> 01:01:33,720
Speaker 1: the hellic and then also they dropped bladders in a

1033
01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:40,600
Speaker 1: fuel at the Desert One site and helicopters would come in,

1034
01:01:41,080 --> 01:01:45,080
Speaker 1: we refill them up and go in. That was determined

1035
01:01:45,080 --> 01:01:48,160
Speaker 1: that we might have too many casualiusy casualties if we

1036
01:01:48,200 --> 01:01:52,200
Speaker 1: do a static line jump. So then we came in

1037
01:01:52,280 --> 01:01:56,520
Speaker 1: and we went in by MC one thirties into Desert one.

1038
01:01:56,840 --> 01:02:00,959
Speaker 1: What we eventually did. Could you talk a little bit about,

1039
01:02:01,080 --> 01:02:03,640
Speaker 1: you know what, you know, the role, the job that

1040
01:02:03,680 --> 01:02:06,240
Speaker 1: you were assigned on the mission, because I remember you

1041
01:02:06,280 --> 01:02:08,360
Speaker 1: had told me a little bit about doing all the

1042
01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:11,080
Speaker 1: mission rehearsals over and over and over and over again.

1043
01:02:11,840 --> 01:02:15,360
Speaker 1: We did. We we had a wall built effects similar

1044
01:02:15,440 --> 01:02:18,280
Speaker 1: wall built at the stock aid, and every day we'd

1045
01:02:18,320 --> 01:02:20,360
Speaker 1: have to load up our with all of our gear

1046
01:02:20,920 --> 01:02:24,920
Speaker 1: and practice going over this wall. We had ladders that

1047
01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:26,920
Speaker 1: we would place up against the wall, and then we

1048
01:02:26,960 --> 01:02:29,600
Speaker 1: had a knotted rope that we would be that we'd

1049
01:02:29,640 --> 01:02:32,040
Speaker 1: throw over the wall tied to the ladder and we

1050
01:02:32,080 --> 01:02:34,080
Speaker 1: would have to go over the wall as quietly as

1051
01:02:34,160 --> 01:02:38,240
Speaker 1: possible and to go hand over hand down this knotted rope.

1052
01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:42,800
Speaker 1: We did that every day. We would lay out engineer

1053
01:02:42,880 --> 01:02:47,880
Speaker 1: tape on the ground to UH to the right size

1054
01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:53,040
Speaker 1: all these the compound, and then we would have to

1055
01:02:53,280 --> 01:02:55,680
Speaker 1: after we got done training, we would have to remove

1056
01:02:55,720 --> 01:02:59,920
Speaker 1: the engineer tape. UM. They were worried about Russian sad

1057
01:03:00,080 --> 01:03:05,800
Speaker 1: lights seeing us layout these engineer tapes. UM. So we started,

1058
01:03:05,880 --> 01:03:09,400
Speaker 1: you know, we every day. UM my team that I

1059
01:03:09,480 --> 01:03:14,560
Speaker 1: was assigned to. Our mission was the second floor of

1060
01:03:14,600 --> 01:03:18,640
Speaker 1: the ambassador residents. Once we go over to the wall,

1061
01:03:18,920 --> 01:03:21,680
Speaker 1: we would move to a side door that entered the

1062
01:03:21,800 --> 01:03:25,560
Speaker 1: kitchen of the Ambassador's residents and we would go up

1063
01:03:25,560 --> 01:03:29,480
Speaker 1: a stair in the kitchen to the second floor. And

1064
01:03:29,520 --> 01:03:33,440
Speaker 1: then our mission was to secure the second floor. The

1065
01:03:33,480 --> 01:03:38,160
Speaker 1: team I was on. And once the second floor was

1066
01:03:38,240 --> 01:03:40,840
Speaker 1: secure and we had all the hostages that if there

1067
01:03:40,880 --> 01:03:45,200
Speaker 1: were any on the second floor, which we believe there were, UH,

1068
01:03:45,320 --> 01:03:47,680
Speaker 1: then two of us would go to the roof of

1069
01:03:47,680 --> 01:03:50,800
Speaker 1: the building. And then I had a rope and I

1070
01:03:50,920 --> 01:03:53,880
Speaker 1: throw the rope down over from the roof down to

1071
01:03:53,960 --> 01:03:58,600
Speaker 1: the ground. Bucky Burris, he some of the guys were

1072
01:03:58,600 --> 01:04:03,200
Speaker 1: carrying laws and sixties six mile Miryam seventy two laws.

1073
01:04:03,920 --> 01:04:06,880
Speaker 1: They would drop them off there at where Bucky Burriss was.

1074
01:04:07,280 --> 01:04:09,600
Speaker 1: He would tie the laws to the rope. We would

1075
01:04:09,640 --> 01:04:12,320
Speaker 1: haul him up to the roof and then we would

1076
01:04:12,360 --> 01:04:18,000
Speaker 1: overwatch the main entrance gate with these laws. Wow. So

1077
01:04:18,360 --> 01:04:20,840
Speaker 1: as you were going through this, you know, these uh,

1078
01:04:20,880 --> 01:04:23,920
Speaker 1: these rehearsals again and again, what was what was your

1079
01:04:23,960 --> 01:04:28,080
Speaker 1: thoughts about this operation? I mean, we're guys pretty nervous

1080
01:04:28,080 --> 01:04:30,680
Speaker 1: about this, where they in high spirits, So what was

1081
01:04:30,720 --> 01:04:33,840
Speaker 1: the thoughts about how this was gonna actually play out?

1082
01:04:35,280 --> 01:04:38,240
Speaker 1: I would say we were all motivated in high spirits.

1083
01:04:38,320 --> 01:04:41,520
Speaker 1: I mean we did this every day this training. I

1084
01:04:41,520 --> 01:04:45,560
Speaker 1: would even at night in my sleep dream about exactly

1085
01:04:45,680 --> 01:04:51,640
Speaker 1: the going through the whole deal, uh in my sleep. Uh.

1086
01:04:51,720 --> 01:04:56,000
Speaker 1: So we we we were really you know, pumped up

1087
01:04:56,040 --> 01:05:00,520
Speaker 1: to do this mission to rescue the hostages. Um In

1088
01:05:00,560 --> 01:05:04,760
Speaker 1: our training though, we had the biggest problem was the helicopters.

1089
01:05:04,960 --> 01:05:11,160
Speaker 1: And we had these Rgift three D helicopters. They were

1090
01:05:11,160 --> 01:05:16,600
Speaker 1: the only helicopters and inventories that could do the distance

1091
01:05:16,880 --> 01:05:19,280
Speaker 1: and do the lift that we needed for them to

1092
01:05:19,360 --> 01:05:25,920
Speaker 1: do that. R three D helicopters were Navy helicopters and

1093
01:05:25,960 --> 01:05:30,240
Speaker 1: they were used in counter mining. They would their normal mission,

1094
01:05:30,280 --> 01:05:32,480
Speaker 1: they would go out in a body of water and

1095
01:05:32,520 --> 01:05:37,200
Speaker 1: they do a grid pattern, carrying these sensors that would

1096
01:05:37,800 --> 01:05:43,400
Speaker 1: detect minds and so they would tow those behind dragon

1097
01:05:43,600 --> 01:05:46,200
Speaker 1: in the water. So they would just do grid patterns

1098
01:05:46,240 --> 01:05:49,920
Speaker 1: in the daytime. So we had these Navy crew now

1099
01:05:49,960 --> 01:05:53,680
Speaker 1: they were expected to you know, do desert training flying

1100
01:05:53,760 --> 01:05:56,400
Speaker 1: at night with night vision goggles, and they had no

1101
01:05:56,520 --> 01:06:02,480
Speaker 1: experience at all doing des it flying with night vision goggles.

1102
01:06:02,600 --> 01:06:08,800
Speaker 1: And well, so that first group of Navy pilots were

1103
01:06:08,880 --> 01:06:13,080
Speaker 1: relieved and then we got in Marine pilots and marine crew.

1104
01:06:14,040 --> 01:06:17,480
Speaker 1: We had one one guy was an A one pilot

1105
01:06:17,560 --> 01:06:21,480
Speaker 1: was Air Force, but otherwise they were mostly Marines and

1106
01:06:21,880 --> 01:06:25,400
Speaker 1: so they too had a learning curve to fly in

1107
01:06:25,440 --> 01:06:30,560
Speaker 1: the desert and stuff. They would get lost they sometimes,

1108
01:06:30,560 --> 01:06:33,120
Speaker 1: so they wouldn't land where we wanted them to land.

1109
01:06:33,840 --> 01:06:36,320
Speaker 1: They would, you know, the desert. When they'd come in

1110
01:06:36,360 --> 01:06:38,800
Speaker 1: with these RH fifty three's, they kick up the dust

1111
01:06:38,920 --> 01:06:42,479
Speaker 1: that get vertigo and couldn't see then they would lift

1112
01:06:42,560 --> 01:06:47,520
Speaker 1: off and we had they would break down. You know,

1113
01:06:47,600 --> 01:06:52,000
Speaker 1: we never had it, never had anything that really when

1114
01:06:52,000 --> 01:06:54,600
Speaker 1: we worked with the helicopters, it never worked right, and

1115
01:06:54,640 --> 01:06:57,840
Speaker 1: that was probably our weakest length. That turned to be

1116
01:06:58,360 --> 01:07:03,000
Speaker 1: that was our weakest link in the operation, was the helicopters.

1117
01:07:03,320 --> 01:07:07,200
Speaker 1: The crews, you know, they tried their best, but they

1118
01:07:07,320 --> 01:07:09,520
Speaker 1: you know, we had been training for two years to

1119
01:07:10,080 --> 01:07:13,720
Speaker 1: do this kind of mission and they've only had weeks.

1120
01:07:14,680 --> 01:07:16,640
Speaker 1: I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think

1121
01:07:16,680 --> 01:07:20,080
Speaker 1: one of the big lessons learned from Eagle Claw was

1122
01:07:20,200 --> 01:07:23,040
Speaker 1: that we can have the greatest operators in the world.

1123
01:07:23,080 --> 01:07:25,840
Speaker 1: We can have the Charlie Beckwith's, the Bucky burris Is,

1124
01:07:26,200 --> 01:07:29,040
Speaker 1: these great men, but if we can't get the operators

1125
01:07:29,080 --> 01:07:32,640
Speaker 1: to their target, then then of course none of it matters.

1126
01:07:33,840 --> 01:07:36,240
Speaker 1: You know. That was our You know, some people tried

1127
01:07:36,280 --> 01:07:39,160
Speaker 1: to compare this to in Tebby, but this was a

1128
01:07:39,200 --> 01:07:43,240
Speaker 1: lot bigger operation than the Israeli and Tebby operation. We

1129
01:07:43,280 --> 01:07:46,360
Speaker 1: had a lot of more distance to go. We had

1130
01:07:46,440 --> 01:07:53,600
Speaker 1: sophisticated UH, the Iranians had sophisticated radar. UH. This was

1131
01:07:53,640 --> 01:07:57,000
Speaker 1: a very complicated mission, and you have the Soviets looking

1132
01:07:57,000 --> 01:08:00,520
Speaker 1: over your shoulder too, we did. They were they were

1133
01:08:00,560 --> 01:08:03,440
Speaker 1: monitoring the fleet, you know, the carrier fleet that was

1134
01:08:03,480 --> 01:08:05,760
Speaker 1: out there. The U. S. Nimbits was the one that

1135
01:08:06,680 --> 01:08:09,240
Speaker 1: you know, Kitty Hawk was on station and Kitty Hawk

1136
01:08:09,360 --> 01:08:13,280
Speaker 1: was relieved by the Nimbits. So our eight helicopters were

1137
01:08:13,280 --> 01:08:16,599
Speaker 1: on board the U S S Nimits and they were

1138
01:08:16,640 --> 01:08:21,320
Speaker 1: being monitored. It's we have a few different accounts written,

1139
01:08:21,360 --> 01:08:25,400
Speaker 1: you know, including from colonel Colonel Beckwith's book about how

1140
01:08:25,439 --> 01:08:28,280
Speaker 1: things went down at Desert One, but it's not so

1141
01:08:28,360 --> 01:08:30,639
Speaker 1: often that you get the chance to talk to somebody

1142
01:08:30,680 --> 01:08:33,040
Speaker 1: who was actually there because there aren't that many of you,

1143
01:08:33,040 --> 01:08:36,360
Speaker 1: you know, it's a small operation, relatively small. Um. I

1144
01:08:36,400 --> 01:08:38,200
Speaker 1: was wondering if you could tell us about what happened

1145
01:08:38,200 --> 01:08:40,160
Speaker 1: at Desert one that night when you guys got to

1146
01:08:40,280 --> 01:08:42,479
Speaker 1: and for the listeners who don't know, Desert one was

1147
01:08:42,880 --> 01:08:46,479
Speaker 1: the staging area in the desert of Iran before the

1148
01:08:46,520 --> 01:08:51,599
Speaker 1: operators would be transported to the embassy. Yeah, I mean

1149
01:08:52,120 --> 01:08:54,400
Speaker 1: one comment about his book. It was interesting to read

1150
01:08:54,439 --> 01:08:57,200
Speaker 1: his book because my perspective of what some of the

1151
01:08:57,280 --> 01:08:59,519
Speaker 1: events that he wrote in the book was different than

1152
01:08:59,600 --> 01:09:03,559
Speaker 1: his suspective. It's interest and see as a commander looking

1153
01:09:03,600 --> 01:09:06,719
Speaker 1: down what he thought took place, and then in somebody

1154
01:09:06,760 --> 01:09:10,599
Speaker 1: at the bottom, UH that was really interested in reading

1155
01:09:10,680 --> 01:09:13,600
Speaker 1: his book. Is what took place? Is that I was

1156
01:09:13,680 --> 01:09:16,760
Speaker 1: on the first m C one thirty that landed in

1157
01:09:16,840 --> 01:09:20,320
Speaker 1: Desert one. John Carney, the CCT guy who had set

1158
01:09:20,400 --> 01:09:22,719
Speaker 1: up the lights went in earlier and set up the lights,

1159
01:09:22,760 --> 01:09:26,559
Speaker 1: was on that plane. We had the Ranger roadblock team

1160
01:09:26,600 --> 01:09:31,799
Speaker 1: on that plane. So as we were coming into Desert one, UH,

1161
01:09:31,840 --> 01:09:34,200
Speaker 1: there was traffic down below. There was a road that

1162
01:09:34,280 --> 01:09:37,760
Speaker 1: we were gonna be landing next to. It's supposed to

1163
01:09:37,800 --> 01:09:40,800
Speaker 1: be no but there's no traffic on this road has

1164
01:09:40,840 --> 01:09:43,960
Speaker 1: been watched and watched and no traffic. Now there's headlights

1165
01:09:43,960 --> 01:09:48,720
Speaker 1: on this road. So we did a couple of passes. Uh,

1166
01:09:48,800 --> 01:09:51,559
Speaker 1: and then we went down to land. As soon as

1167
01:09:51,600 --> 01:09:54,000
Speaker 1: we land and they opened up the ramp and we're

1168
01:09:54,000 --> 01:09:56,639
Speaker 1: coming off the ramp. Next thing you know, you see

1169
01:09:56,680 --> 01:10:00,479
Speaker 1: headlights coming down the road again. So it was a

1170
01:10:00,800 --> 01:10:05,240
Speaker 1: it was a bus and UH and back with Hollard.

1171
01:10:05,400 --> 01:10:08,599
Speaker 1: You know, stop that bus. So somebody shot a forty

1172
01:10:08,640 --> 01:10:12,320
Speaker 1: millimeter around in front of the bus and the bus stopped,

1173
01:10:12,400 --> 01:10:14,400
Speaker 1: you know, missed the bus but went out in the

1174
01:10:14,439 --> 01:10:18,640
Speaker 1: desert and detonated UM and bus stopped. We boarded on

1175
01:10:18,800 --> 01:10:24,040
Speaker 1: the bus uh and we took and then we had

1176
01:10:24,080 --> 01:10:28,519
Speaker 1: forty four hostages, civilian hostages of our own off the bus.

1177
01:10:28,960 --> 01:10:31,400
Speaker 1: So we took him off the bus. We searched him

1178
01:10:32,080 --> 01:10:35,600
Speaker 1: uh um, and we put him in a ditch, handcuffed

1179
01:10:36,080 --> 01:10:40,280
Speaker 1: some of the people with flex ties the mails uh

1180
01:10:40,320 --> 01:10:43,880
Speaker 1: and started guarding him. Meanwhile, the roadblock teams went down

1181
01:10:44,560 --> 01:10:48,639
Speaker 1: and here comes some another vehicles up the road. There's

1182
01:10:48,720 --> 01:10:52,960
Speaker 1: a fuel truck with a pickup drop behind it. So

1183
01:10:53,040 --> 01:10:56,439
Speaker 1: one of the rangers fires their law at the fuel truck.

1184
01:10:57,120 --> 01:11:02,720
Speaker 1: It actually hits underneath the field truck detonates UM and

1185
01:11:02,920 --> 01:11:06,559
Speaker 1: causes the field trucks starting to burn. People in the

1186
01:11:06,560 --> 01:11:09,320
Speaker 1: fuel truck jump out, hop into the pickup and then

1187
01:11:09,360 --> 01:11:12,200
Speaker 1: they took off and they got out of the out

1188
01:11:12,200 --> 01:11:14,120
Speaker 1: of there. So we got a fuel truck now this

1189
01:11:14,280 --> 01:11:19,680
Speaker 1: setting there burning um. But then we have no helicopters.

1190
01:11:20,560 --> 01:11:25,479
Speaker 1: Were waiting and waiting and waiting for the helicopters and uh,

1191
01:11:25,760 --> 01:11:30,600
Speaker 1: finally the field truck det debtonates. It's like a huge explosion,

1192
01:11:30,800 --> 01:11:35,040
Speaker 1: fireball going up into the sky guy. Um, you know,

1193
01:11:35,640 --> 01:11:44,280
Speaker 1: so much for secrecy. Um. Then the helicopters saw our fireball.

1194
01:11:45,240 --> 01:11:49,680
Speaker 1: They came in and they had you know, when we

1195
01:11:49,680 --> 01:11:51,840
Speaker 1: we had a dust storm go on while we were

1196
01:11:51,840 --> 01:11:56,400
Speaker 1: flying into the desert one site and Iran uh and

1197
01:11:56,479 --> 01:11:59,120
Speaker 1: the fixed wings the three M C one thirties and

1198
01:11:59,160 --> 01:12:02,600
Speaker 1: the three E C one thirties bladder birds the C

1199
01:12:02,880 --> 01:12:08,960
Speaker 1: one thirties, we flew above the dust storm. One of

1200
01:12:08,960 --> 01:12:12,040
Speaker 1: the things dust storms do is they mask radar, so

1201
01:12:12,120 --> 01:12:15,920
Speaker 1: you can fly above the you know, and still be undetected.

1202
01:12:16,160 --> 01:12:22,040
Speaker 1: So what since that was good helicopters. The helicopter crews

1203
01:12:22,720 --> 01:12:25,320
Speaker 1: flew through the dust storm instead of getting on top

1204
01:12:25,360 --> 01:12:27,320
Speaker 1: of the dust storm. They were told that they had

1205
01:12:27,360 --> 01:12:31,559
Speaker 1: to stay low for the radars. Uh. They never were

1206
01:12:31,960 --> 01:12:35,880
Speaker 1: briefed about weather conditions such as you know, the haboos,

1207
01:12:35,960 --> 01:12:39,559
Speaker 1: the dust storms that could occur. So they just charged

1208
01:12:39,680 --> 01:12:44,400
Speaker 1: on and we couldn't talk to the helicopters secure. Back

1209
01:12:44,439 --> 01:12:48,599
Speaker 1: then with satellite radio, what the helicopters would have had

1210
01:12:48,640 --> 01:12:51,519
Speaker 1: to have done is to sit down in the desert,

1211
01:12:51,920 --> 01:12:56,519
Speaker 1: set up a sackcom radio and and and then talk

1212
01:12:56,640 --> 01:12:59,720
Speaker 1: to somebody about what was going on. So they so

1213
01:12:59,760 --> 01:13:02,559
Speaker 1: they just kept plowing through one dust storm, they got

1214
01:13:02,600 --> 01:13:05,760
Speaker 1: out of that, and then they plowed through another dust storm.

1215
01:13:05,840 --> 01:13:09,439
Speaker 1: When the helicopter cruise finally landed and there was only

1216
01:13:09,479 --> 01:13:12,960
Speaker 1: six helicopters there weren't eight. You can look at the

1217
01:13:13,000 --> 01:13:17,960
Speaker 1: faces of the crew. They were at the point of exhaustion.

1218
01:13:18,360 --> 01:13:25,160
Speaker 1: They had been through the Ringer and UM so we

1219
01:13:25,240 --> 01:13:31,200
Speaker 1: had to they renumbered the helicopters UM and so we

1220
01:13:31,200 --> 01:13:35,000
Speaker 1: were getting into I think helicopter number five. Well, helicopter

1221
01:13:35,080 --> 01:13:42,120
Speaker 1: number five developed a hydraulic problem and it wasn't going

1222
01:13:42,160 --> 01:13:46,560
Speaker 1: to be fliable. So now we're down to five helicopters.

1223
01:13:46,640 --> 01:13:51,080
Speaker 1: Five helicopters is was the bare minimum to do the mission.

1224
01:13:51,479 --> 01:13:55,000
Speaker 1: To get all of the rescue force out and all

1225
01:13:55,040 --> 01:14:00,280
Speaker 1: of the hostages out, we needed no less than five helicopters.

1226
01:14:01,240 --> 01:14:05,559
Speaker 1: And we had actually planned on losing another helicopter at

1227
01:14:05,560 --> 01:14:08,960
Speaker 1: our hide site, because we from that night we would

1228
01:14:08,960 --> 01:14:12,320
Speaker 1: move to a hide site out of Tehran by aware

1229
01:14:12,560 --> 01:14:17,320
Speaker 1: by these buildings where our trucks were being stored UM,

1230
01:14:17,320 --> 01:14:22,960
Speaker 1: and we would spend the daytime there and then uh

1231
01:14:23,320 --> 01:14:27,720
Speaker 1: we we figured that one of those helicopters wouldn't start up,

1232
01:14:27,800 --> 01:14:31,440
Speaker 1: there would be a problem, uh would lose another helicopter,

1233
01:14:32,080 --> 01:14:36,920
Speaker 1: and because the helicopters would After we secured the host

1234
01:14:37,280 --> 01:14:40,719
Speaker 1: you know, all the hostages at the American Embassy, we

1235
01:14:40,760 --> 01:14:45,200
Speaker 1: went across Roosevelt Road to the there's a soccer stadium,

1236
01:14:45,280 --> 01:14:47,519
Speaker 1: and the soccer stadium was where we were going to

1237
01:14:47,680 --> 01:14:52,160
Speaker 1: set up for the helicopters to come in and evacuate everybody.

1238
01:14:52,439 --> 01:14:56,320
Speaker 1: So I was determined with five helicopters that was not

1239
01:14:56,479 --> 01:14:59,439
Speaker 1: we couldn't do the mission. Yes, So at that point

1240
01:14:59,439 --> 01:15:04,760
Speaker 1: the mission scrubbed greg. Then the accident happened when the

1241
01:15:04,920 --> 01:15:11,000
Speaker 1: helicopter crashed into the one B squadron. We were all

1242
01:15:11,080 --> 01:15:14,519
Speaker 1: loaded into this e C one thirty to fly back.

1243
01:15:15,160 --> 01:15:19,080
Speaker 1: The mission was canceled. We were actually the plan was

1244
01:15:19,160 --> 01:15:24,400
Speaker 1: to fly the hostages out with US, Iranian hostages out

1245
01:15:24,479 --> 01:15:28,000
Speaker 1: with us later you know, you know sent you know,

1246
01:15:28,040 --> 01:15:34,280
Speaker 1: being able to repatriate them back, um and um. So

1247
01:15:34,360 --> 01:15:38,320
Speaker 1: we're going to abort the mission. So we be squad

1248
01:15:38,360 --> 01:15:40,640
Speaker 1: and we loaded up into this EC one thirty. This

1249
01:15:40,720 --> 01:15:43,519
Speaker 1: bladder bird that still had you know, had initially five

1250
01:15:43,560 --> 01:15:48,160
Speaker 1: thousand gallons of aviation fieled to hit Philip the helicopter,

1251
01:15:48,320 --> 01:15:52,160
Speaker 1: So it was like a giant water bed, and so

1252
01:15:52,200 --> 01:15:55,960
Speaker 1: we got in there and it we buttoned up and

1253
01:15:57,520 --> 01:16:00,960
Speaker 1: the props were going. The next thing you expected, everything

1254
01:16:01,080 --> 01:16:04,400
Speaker 1: was dark inside. The next thing you expected was the

1255
01:16:04,439 --> 01:16:08,280
Speaker 1: brakes to be released and you'll start taxing. Well, what

1256
01:16:08,400 --> 01:16:11,800
Speaker 1: happened was that behind us was the two helicopters that

1257
01:16:11,840 --> 01:16:15,400
Speaker 1: were refilled from this airplane. The CCT UH they were

1258
01:16:15,400 --> 01:16:19,440
Speaker 1: getting dust from our props. So the CTCT wanted to

1259
01:16:19,479 --> 01:16:22,720
Speaker 1: move the helicopters, just reposition them. We were going to

1260
01:16:22,880 --> 01:16:25,680
Speaker 1: leave first. The helicopters would leave after us, so they

1261
01:16:25,680 --> 01:16:29,400
Speaker 1: were just repositioned in the helicopters. Well, the one helicopter

1262
01:16:29,479 --> 01:16:33,439
Speaker 1: behind us, when it landed, it landed hard and it

1263
01:16:33,520 --> 01:16:36,559
Speaker 1: had flat tires. It flattened its wheels, so in order

1264
01:16:36,600 --> 01:16:40,559
Speaker 1: to it couldn't taxi away. It had to physically lift

1265
01:16:40,760 --> 01:16:44,000
Speaker 1: up off the ground to move away. When it lifted up,

1266
01:16:44,040 --> 01:16:46,960
Speaker 1: they got vertigo. They came in and crashed into our

1267
01:16:47,040 --> 01:16:51,000
Speaker 1: rights left right side by by the where the cockpit was.

1268
01:16:52,640 --> 01:16:56,880
Speaker 1: Next thing we know, who're inside the helic inside the aircraft,

1269
01:16:57,280 --> 01:16:59,800
Speaker 1: the props are cutting through the top of the fuselage

1270
01:17:00,080 --> 01:17:04,360
Speaker 1: where there's an explosion. Were rocked and then the left

1271
01:17:04,400 --> 01:17:08,000
Speaker 1: front cockpit door actually blows in on the C one

1272
01:17:08,080 --> 01:17:11,920
Speaker 1: thirty and nothing but a ball of flame comes into

1273
01:17:11,960 --> 01:17:16,960
Speaker 1: that cockpit area. And uh and only one of the

1274
01:17:17,040 --> 01:17:20,080
Speaker 1: Air Force crew that was up in the cockpit was

1275
01:17:20,120 --> 01:17:24,559
Speaker 1: able to escape out of the emergency cockpit hatch up

1276
01:17:24,600 --> 01:17:31,240
Speaker 1: in the front. Uh. So you know that five So

1277
01:17:31,360 --> 01:17:35,200
Speaker 1: the five Air Force crew that were up in the

1278
01:17:35,240 --> 01:17:41,200
Speaker 1: cockpit were trapped and they were killed. But this so

1279
01:17:41,360 --> 01:17:44,240
Speaker 1: here comes all this fire and flame in through our

1280
01:17:44,320 --> 01:17:48,439
Speaker 1: C one thirty and so we don't know what what

1281
01:17:48,640 --> 01:17:50,640
Speaker 1: is the cause of all this. We don't know that

1282
01:17:50,680 --> 01:17:53,840
Speaker 1: this helicopter just crashed into the side of us. We

1283
01:17:54,160 --> 01:17:56,439
Speaker 1: all we know is that we are now on fire.

1284
01:17:57,640 --> 01:18:01,479
Speaker 1: So they tried to lift the left you know, the

1285
01:18:01,560 --> 01:18:05,120
Speaker 1: left rear cockpit, I mean the parachute door, tried to

1286
01:18:05,160 --> 01:18:08,839
Speaker 1: open that well, that was aside the helicopter had crashed

1287
01:18:08,880 --> 01:18:11,640
Speaker 1: into and there was nothing but flames. As soon as

1288
01:18:11,640 --> 01:18:13,840
Speaker 1: they cracked it, they put it back down because there

1289
01:18:13,880 --> 01:18:19,040
Speaker 1: was nothing but flames. And the helicopter had an internal

1290
01:18:19,080 --> 01:18:21,679
Speaker 1: fuel tank and that had ruptured and that had blew

1291
01:18:21,800 --> 01:18:25,599
Speaker 1: up three marines that were in the crewmen that were

1292
01:18:25,600 --> 01:18:29,960
Speaker 1: in the back of the helicopter. They perished, but we

1293
01:18:30,240 --> 01:18:35,040
Speaker 1: initially disappeared in that fire initial fireball. For observers that

1294
01:18:35,080 --> 01:18:40,759
Speaker 1: were watching what was taking place outside, UM, they thought

1295
01:18:40,840 --> 01:18:44,519
Speaker 1: the whole we were all gone. So they opened up

1296
01:18:44,560 --> 01:18:48,439
Speaker 1: the right rear paratrooper door and there was even though

1297
01:18:48,439 --> 01:18:51,559
Speaker 1: our crops were still going and there was fire whipping through,

1298
01:18:52,360 --> 01:18:55,519
Speaker 1: we were able to jump out of the right rear

1299
01:18:55,600 --> 01:18:59,920
Speaker 1: paratrooper door and Dave Cheney, this was all be squad

1300
01:19:00,040 --> 01:19:02,879
Speaker 1: and it was on there, Dave Cheney's you know, hollered,

1301
01:19:03,360 --> 01:19:07,160
Speaker 1: don't panic, and so we were just lining up going

1302
01:19:07,200 --> 01:19:11,240
Speaker 1: out that door, and I was up near the front

1303
01:19:11,800 --> 01:19:15,439
Speaker 1: and I really did not think it was possible for

1304
01:19:15,479 --> 01:19:18,479
Speaker 1: me to where I was to make that door. I

1305
01:19:18,520 --> 01:19:22,080
Speaker 1: thought I was going to perish that night, and that,

1306
01:19:22,479 --> 01:19:24,679
Speaker 1: you know, I thought that this is how my life

1307
01:19:24,760 --> 01:19:26,960
Speaker 1: is going to end. In the back of that thing.

1308
01:19:27,080 --> 01:19:30,880
Speaker 1: The fire was starting to get pretty intense. Small arms

1309
01:19:31,040 --> 01:19:34,479
Speaker 1: was cooking off, and finally I was able to reach

1310
01:19:34,600 --> 01:19:38,760
Speaker 1: that door and I jumped out and dis dove out,

1311
01:19:38,920 --> 01:19:41,720
Speaker 1: rolled got to my feet and out. I could hear

1312
01:19:41,760 --> 01:19:47,200
Speaker 1: hand garnades detonating that we had UH on board. UH.

1313
01:19:47,320 --> 01:19:51,320
Speaker 1: We had six red eye missiles on that aircraft and

1314
01:19:51,360 --> 01:19:55,160
Speaker 1: they started catching on fire and you could see the

1315
01:19:55,200 --> 01:19:59,559
Speaker 1: missiles just shooting it out into the desert. Um. So

1316
01:20:00,880 --> 01:20:03,920
Speaker 1: then when we got out, you know, all the other

1317
01:20:03,960 --> 01:20:06,840
Speaker 1: aircraft were moving away from us because it was just

1318
01:20:07,000 --> 01:20:13,000
Speaker 1: intense the explosions and fuel and going on fire. Yeah.

1319
01:20:13,600 --> 01:20:17,040
Speaker 1: So finally I got to a first aircraft. I tried

1320
01:20:17,080 --> 01:20:20,160
Speaker 1: to get on. They waved us away and I was like,

1321
01:20:20,280 --> 01:20:21,880
Speaker 1: I don't know what's going on, but they were just

1322
01:20:21,920 --> 01:20:26,320
Speaker 1: trying to reposition to get away from the fire. And

1323
01:20:26,640 --> 01:20:29,360
Speaker 1: so when I got on the back end of this

1324
01:20:29,760 --> 01:20:33,200
Speaker 1: other air fixed wing, it was another e C one

1325
01:20:33,280 --> 01:20:35,720
Speaker 1: thirty bladder burden. I said, oh boy, it was on

1326
01:20:35,720 --> 01:20:39,320
Speaker 1: one bladder burden. Now I'm getting on another one. Um.

1327
01:20:39,439 --> 01:20:43,880
Speaker 1: Then the pilot was on the ramps one of one

1328
01:20:43,920 --> 01:20:49,000
Speaker 1: of the the I guess the CCT guys carried the pilot.

1329
01:20:49,040 --> 01:20:51,679
Speaker 1: The pilot and co pilot of the helicopter actually got

1330
01:20:51,680 --> 01:20:56,679
Speaker 1: out of the helicopter and they they were there. So

1331
01:20:57,240 --> 01:21:01,479
Speaker 1: on the on the flight back, I did medical aid

1332
01:21:01,600 --> 01:21:05,720
Speaker 1: for the pilot for the whole flight back. Um. That

1333
01:21:05,800 --> 01:21:10,400
Speaker 1: must have been a long fight. Hume. Yeah. Yeah, once

1334
01:21:10,479 --> 01:21:13,760
Speaker 1: we had not a head count, there was no head count.

1335
01:21:13,800 --> 01:21:16,760
Speaker 1: We didn't know who was in those aircraft and who

1336
01:21:16,880 --> 01:21:19,760
Speaker 1: we had left behind. There was no you know, that

1337
01:21:19,880 --> 01:21:22,759
Speaker 1: fire was so intense you once you left that area,

1338
01:21:23,400 --> 01:21:26,720
Speaker 1: there was no going back to see you know, to

1339
01:21:26,760 --> 01:21:32,439
Speaker 1: recover anybodies that night. That was impossible. Uh So when

1340
01:21:32,439 --> 01:21:38,439
Speaker 1: we took off our aircraft, we actually hit that dirt

1341
01:21:38,520 --> 01:21:42,120
Speaker 1: burm on the road and it just we ran into

1342
01:21:42,120 --> 01:21:47,960
Speaker 1: that dirt bird dirt burn and then we finally got airborne.

1343
01:21:49,400 --> 01:21:53,519
Speaker 1: And then so I we provided kept the talk to

1344
01:21:53,560 --> 01:21:57,519
Speaker 1: the We had some morphine that we gave the people

1345
01:21:57,560 --> 01:22:03,439
Speaker 1: that were burnt. Um and but no no medical really anything,

1346
01:22:03,439 --> 01:22:06,200
Speaker 1: no I VS. No no medical kits. All they had

1347
01:22:07,080 --> 01:22:09,720
Speaker 1: head on the aircraft was those little kits that they

1348
01:22:09,760 --> 01:22:14,559
Speaker 1: have on the you know in the Yeah, we didn't

1349
01:22:14,600 --> 01:22:17,200
Speaker 1: have a medical package there. In hindsight, there should have

1350
01:22:17,200 --> 01:22:20,760
Speaker 1: been a medical package on each aircraft with all the

1351
01:22:20,800 --> 01:22:23,559
Speaker 1: stuff that we needed, but we didn't have any of that.

1352
01:22:24,560 --> 01:22:28,280
Speaker 1: Um that they told us that came on the speaker

1353
01:22:28,320 --> 01:22:31,720
Speaker 1: and said that our landing gear may have been damaged,

1354
01:22:31,720 --> 01:22:34,600
Speaker 1: that we may not have any landing gear when we

1355
01:22:34,640 --> 01:22:38,439
Speaker 1: get back to massarea and oman where we were landing.

1356
01:22:39,120 --> 01:22:41,800
Speaker 1: And uh then they then they came over and said

1357
01:22:41,800 --> 01:22:44,320
Speaker 1: we may not have enough fuel to make it back

1358
01:22:44,360 --> 01:22:46,599
Speaker 1: because we were a state on the ground, we may

1359
01:22:46,680 --> 01:22:51,960
Speaker 1: have to ditch it. See it was and finally we

1360
01:22:52,080 --> 01:22:56,679
Speaker 1: landed back in Oman, and then that's when we took

1361
01:22:56,760 --> 01:22:59,680
Speaker 1: head count. I didn't, you know, on the aircraft. I

1362
01:22:59,760 --> 01:23:04,880
Speaker 1: only knew Chris Able, Um. I didn't see my other

1363
01:23:04,920 --> 01:23:09,720
Speaker 1: two teammates, Bill Zuma, Eric Keney. They weren't on that aircraft.

1364
01:23:10,280 --> 01:23:13,000
Speaker 1: So we didn't know who until we got back to

1365
01:23:13,040 --> 01:23:16,599
Speaker 1: Almand and they took a head count who was where

1366
01:23:16,680 --> 01:23:19,559
Speaker 1: and who were left behind. At that point, you probably

1367
01:23:19,560 --> 01:23:23,280
Speaker 1: weren't even sure who survived. Right right back was book.

1368
01:23:23,479 --> 01:23:27,559
Speaker 1: He says, we had accountability that was not true. And

1369
01:23:27,680 --> 01:23:30,280
Speaker 1: before we left, well, you know, when I interviewed, I

1370
01:23:30,320 --> 01:23:33,559
Speaker 1: was doing that article about Detachment A, which had a

1371
01:23:33,600 --> 01:23:36,799
Speaker 1: small role in the in the mission, one of the guys,

1372
01:23:36,840 --> 01:23:38,640
Speaker 1: one of the dead A guys, said he jumped in

1373
01:23:38,680 --> 01:23:41,960
Speaker 1: front of us. He won thirty that was taking off empty. Yeah,

1374
01:23:42,120 --> 01:23:44,000
Speaker 1: there's no one on and he jumped in front of

1375
01:23:44,000 --> 01:23:46,960
Speaker 1: it with his submachine gun. It was like stop, stop, stop,

1376
01:23:47,560 --> 01:23:50,400
Speaker 1: you know, and uh, there's I mean, that's horrifying to think.

1377
01:23:50,439 --> 01:23:53,080
Speaker 1: I mean, guys would have at that point being left behind.

1378
01:23:54,000 --> 01:23:59,320
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. It is very possible we I that somebody

1379
01:23:59,320 --> 01:24:02,320
Speaker 1: could have been left behind that night. Luckily nobody was

1380
01:24:02,439 --> 01:24:05,320
Speaker 1: left behind. And uh And Jerry Boykin's book, he also

1381
01:24:05,360 --> 01:24:07,920
Speaker 1: talks about running at full speed to catch up with

1382
01:24:07,960 --> 01:24:10,000
Speaker 1: an airplane as it was leaving and like jumps on

1383
01:24:10,080 --> 01:24:13,800
Speaker 1: at the last moment, right, Yeah, they were, they were

1384
01:24:13,880 --> 01:24:16,360
Speaker 1: moving out, you know, like the first plane. I tried

1385
01:24:16,360 --> 01:24:19,000
Speaker 1: to get down. They waved us away and the ramp

1386
01:24:19,040 --> 01:24:21,000
Speaker 1: was opened as people on the back and they just

1387
01:24:21,040 --> 01:24:24,000
Speaker 1: waved us away. But they were just trying to get

1388
01:24:24,040 --> 01:24:28,200
Speaker 1: away from all the fire and explosion. What was the

1389
01:24:27,960 --> 01:24:31,639
Speaker 1: the impact that that desert one had on on the unit?

1390
01:24:31,840 --> 01:24:34,040
Speaker 1: And you know what, what did you guys come home

1391
01:24:34,120 --> 01:24:37,200
Speaker 1: and um, I know you began planning for um what

1392
01:24:37,280 --> 01:24:42,720
Speaker 1: was an operation Snowbird, Honey Badger, Honey Badger, Yeah, we

1393
01:24:42,760 --> 01:24:45,320
Speaker 1: called it Honey Badger. That would have been the second one.

1394
01:24:46,120 --> 01:24:50,000
Speaker 1: We never they took people, scattered him through and put

1395
01:24:50,040 --> 01:24:53,400
Speaker 1: him in prisons throughout Iran. We never had a fix

1396
01:24:53,479 --> 01:25:00,360
Speaker 1: on locations, and Honey Badger, you know, never really happen.

1397
01:25:01,160 --> 01:25:05,360
Speaker 1: And the morale, you know, we were disappointed, we were

1398
01:25:05,800 --> 01:25:09,400
Speaker 1: we we knew if we could have gotten to the embassy.

1399
01:25:09,760 --> 01:25:12,040
Speaker 1: That was the big if. If we could have got

1400
01:25:12,080 --> 01:25:16,760
Speaker 1: to the embassy, we were very confident that with our

1401
01:25:16,800 --> 01:25:20,760
Speaker 1: training and everything, that we would have been able to

1402
01:25:20,840 --> 01:25:25,439
Speaker 1: rescue the hostages. Our belief was that we would have

1403
01:25:25,520 --> 01:25:28,639
Speaker 1: gotten to the embassy, everything would have been fine, would

1404
01:25:28,640 --> 01:25:32,559
Speaker 1: make it. We were really more concerned about after we

1405
01:25:32,800 --> 01:25:36,960
Speaker 1: got the hostages, would those helicopters show up at that

1406
01:25:37,080 --> 01:25:40,800
Speaker 1: stadium and pick us pick us up? That was one

1407
01:25:40,840 --> 01:25:46,160
Speaker 1: of our big concerns. We practice our E and E plan. Um.

1408
01:25:46,720 --> 01:25:51,080
Speaker 1: We you know, we were carrying five thousand dollars US money,

1409
01:25:51,240 --> 01:25:54,720
Speaker 1: five thousand dollars uranium money. We had maps and so

1410
01:25:55,040 --> 01:25:58,920
Speaker 1: into our field jackets that we were wearing. You know,

1411
01:25:58,960 --> 01:26:03,839
Speaker 1: we had we we were taught how to hot wire cars,

1412
01:26:03,960 --> 01:26:09,120
Speaker 1: which cars to steal? Um, and so we all had

1413
01:26:09,160 --> 01:26:12,240
Speaker 1: an E and E plan and how we would try

1414
01:26:12,320 --> 01:26:16,759
Speaker 1: to get out and work our way safe to Turkey. Uh,

1415
01:26:16,800 --> 01:26:22,240
Speaker 1: if we had to escape and evade and well, there's

1416
01:26:22,600 --> 01:26:24,719
Speaker 1: so many questions and so many different things we could

1417
01:26:24,720 --> 01:26:26,920
Speaker 1: get into. But um, you know, I know we only

1418
01:26:26,960 --> 01:26:28,960
Speaker 1: take up so much for your day. I did want

1419
01:26:29,000 --> 01:26:32,640
Speaker 1: to ask you a few years later, um, involved in

1420
01:26:32,680 --> 01:26:36,559
Speaker 1: another conflict which unfortunately is nearly forgotten today and probably

1421
01:26:36,560 --> 01:26:40,800
Speaker 1: most Americans, uh, don't have much memory of this. But

1422
01:26:40,880 --> 01:26:44,760
Speaker 1: in three the United States launched an invasion of the

1423
01:26:44,800 --> 01:26:47,800
Speaker 1: island of Grenada, and I was wondering if you could

1424
01:26:47,880 --> 01:26:52,320
Speaker 1: um talk to us a little bit about your experiences. Sure. Well,

1425
01:26:52,360 --> 01:26:55,280
Speaker 1: you know, after the Iran hostage, there is the Holloway

1426
01:26:55,360 --> 01:26:59,960
Speaker 1: Commission and they did the investigation, and Joint Special Opera

1427
01:27:00,040 --> 01:27:05,519
Speaker 1: Rations Command was formed up to solve these inner Service

1428
01:27:05,600 --> 01:27:09,880
Speaker 1: problems that we had during the Iran rush rescued. So

1429
01:27:10,000 --> 01:27:13,599
Speaker 1: the next mission that came along night October of nineteen

1430
01:27:14,120 --> 01:27:19,519
Speaker 1: three was the Grenada and again we were out west training,

1431
01:27:20,000 --> 01:27:22,600
Speaker 1: got the word that we had to go back to

1432
01:27:22,680 --> 01:27:25,200
Speaker 1: Fort Bragg. And when we got to Fort Bragg, we

1433
01:27:25,280 --> 01:27:27,400
Speaker 1: found out that we were going to invade the island

1434
01:27:27,439 --> 01:27:30,320
Speaker 1: or grenade. A lot of guys didn't even know there

1435
01:27:30,360 --> 01:27:35,120
Speaker 1: was a you know, anything about grenade, and that we

1436
01:27:35,120 --> 01:27:38,920
Speaker 1: were too. One of the big concerns was the medical

1437
01:27:39,000 --> 01:27:43,360
Speaker 1: students that were on the island. It's a it's a

1438
01:27:43,360 --> 01:27:48,160
Speaker 1: big area for Americans to go to get their medical degrees,

1439
01:27:48,400 --> 01:27:52,240
Speaker 1: and so there was a lot so Reagan and you know,

1440
01:27:52,280 --> 01:27:54,960
Speaker 1: they had a coup and they had they overthrew the

1441
01:27:55,000 --> 01:27:58,360
Speaker 1: government and they had a Marxist government now in there

1442
01:27:59,400 --> 01:28:03,080
Speaker 1: with ties to Cuba. Cube you know, Cuban engineers were

1443
01:28:03,120 --> 01:28:07,479
Speaker 1: there rebuilt and making meg hangers and making that a

1444
01:28:07,600 --> 01:28:14,479
Speaker 1: forward base for say meg hell mag jets. So we

1445
01:28:14,479 --> 01:28:17,000
Speaker 1: were told a matter of few days we had to

1446
01:28:17,040 --> 01:28:23,439
Speaker 1: plan the invasion of Grenada. So so we did that

1447
01:28:23,680 --> 01:28:28,120
Speaker 1: and I was with B Squadron and our mission was

1448
01:28:28,240 --> 01:28:35,080
Speaker 1: the the Richmond Hill Prison. A prison is a pretty

1449
01:28:35,120 --> 01:28:39,599
Speaker 1: hard target, difficult target to take down. Yeah, the reason

1450
01:28:39,800 --> 01:28:42,519
Speaker 1: we were Our mission was the Richmond Hill Prison. That's

1451
01:28:42,560 --> 01:28:47,479
Speaker 1: where the political prisoners were being held, and we were

1452
01:28:47,520 --> 01:28:50,600
Speaker 1: to go there and secure them. The rangers were to

1453
01:28:50,840 --> 01:28:55,320
Speaker 1: rescue the you know, round up the medical students, but

1454
01:28:55,439 --> 01:29:00,240
Speaker 1: we were to get the political prisoners. So we flew in.

1455
01:29:01,160 --> 01:29:06,400
Speaker 1: We had eight helicopters. B Squadron was on the first

1456
01:29:07,040 --> 01:29:12,280
Speaker 1: UH six helicopters. The last two helicopters carried the seal team.

1457
01:29:12,360 --> 01:29:16,200
Speaker 1: Their mission was the Governor General's residents. He was also

1458
01:29:16,320 --> 01:29:21,960
Speaker 1: being held on home arrest in his residents, so the

1459
01:29:22,040 --> 01:29:24,320
Speaker 1: seals would break off and they would go to the

1460
01:29:24,360 --> 01:29:29,559
Speaker 1: Governor General's residents to rescue him and then they broke

1461
01:29:29,600 --> 01:29:33,479
Speaker 1: off and we went into Richmond Hill Prison. Uh. We

1462
01:29:33,479 --> 01:29:36,240
Speaker 1: were supposed to go in there at first light. There

1463
01:29:36,280 --> 01:29:39,600
Speaker 1: were a lot of delays for whatever reason. It was

1464
01:29:39,720 --> 01:29:45,160
Speaker 1: broad daylight when we went into. Uh. When it flew in,

1465
01:29:46,920 --> 01:29:50,360
Speaker 1: we heard on radio Grenada that the American invasion has begun.

1466
01:29:51,240 --> 01:29:53,680
Speaker 1: Go to the big grab your rifles, go to the

1467
01:29:53,680 --> 01:29:57,719
Speaker 1: beaches and meet the Americans. Uh. We As we flew

1468
01:29:57,760 --> 01:30:02,320
Speaker 1: over the coast the beach with our helicopters, we saw

1469
01:30:02,400 --> 01:30:06,360
Speaker 1: a bunch of people down below waving at us. Uh.

1470
01:30:06,600 --> 01:30:10,719
Speaker 1: There you could hear somebody, you know, a rifle shooting

1471
01:30:10,760 --> 01:30:14,320
Speaker 1: here and here and there. When we got to the prison.

1472
01:30:14,520 --> 01:30:17,880
Speaker 1: As we flew over the prison, um, we're gonna do

1473
01:30:18,040 --> 01:30:21,960
Speaker 1: the fast ropes. This would be the first helicopter assault

1474
01:30:22,040 --> 01:30:25,160
Speaker 1: using fast ropes, and this is the first time use

1475
01:30:25,240 --> 01:30:30,240
Speaker 1: of the black Hawk helicopters. So we came in and

1476
01:30:30,439 --> 01:30:34,720
Speaker 1: but there's this other fort, Fort Frederick, right next to

1477
01:30:34,800 --> 01:30:39,719
Speaker 1: us that's on a higher ground overlooking the prison. Well,

1478
01:30:40,920 --> 01:30:45,760
Speaker 1: they had the Zeus twenty threes twelve point seven millimeter

1479
01:30:47,040 --> 01:30:50,200
Speaker 1: and with their you know, seven point six to they

1480
01:30:50,240 --> 01:30:53,639
Speaker 1: opened up with everything thing that they had on our

1481
01:30:53,800 --> 01:30:58,160
Speaker 1: six helicopters and we were getting hit right and left.

1482
01:30:58,200 --> 01:31:02,400
Speaker 1: Immediately our door gunner on the left side was shot.

1483
01:31:03,439 --> 01:31:08,240
Speaker 1: Um and uh, you know, Jerry Boykin took actually a

1484
01:31:08,280 --> 01:31:11,520
Speaker 1: twenty three millimeter around in his He had a Sackcom

1485
01:31:11,600 --> 01:31:14,519
Speaker 1: radio on his back. The round hit his Sackcom radio

1486
01:31:15,280 --> 01:31:19,519
Speaker 1: and detonated. Uh. He lost a part of his shoulder

1487
01:31:19,600 --> 01:31:24,519
Speaker 1: muscle area when that took place. Um, So we were

1488
01:31:24,560 --> 01:31:28,760
Speaker 1: getting guys getting we're just taking heavy fire and they

1489
01:31:28,800 --> 01:31:31,559
Speaker 1: were coming out of the prison from down below us

1490
01:31:31,920 --> 01:31:34,800
Speaker 1: shooting up and bullets were going through the floors of

1491
01:31:34,840 --> 01:31:39,280
Speaker 1: the helicopters. So we pulled away. You know, we hovered.

1492
01:31:39,400 --> 01:31:42,439
Speaker 1: We're just wanting to get down the fast ropes down

1493
01:31:42,439 --> 01:31:46,120
Speaker 1: to get onto the ground and fight. Our helicopter is

1494
01:31:46,120 --> 01:31:48,800
Speaker 1: supposed to land outside the prison. There was a guardhouse

1495
01:31:49,320 --> 01:31:53,840
Speaker 1: and we were to take the guardhouse, but we pulled off.

1496
01:31:54,240 --> 01:31:57,200
Speaker 1: The firing was two tents, so that pulled off and

1497
01:31:58,240 --> 01:32:04,360
Speaker 1: helicopter for war in front of us. The pilot was

1498
01:32:04,439 --> 01:32:10,599
Speaker 1: mortally shot and that helicopter four went down and then

1499
01:32:10,680 --> 01:32:14,880
Speaker 1: we circled around and we came back around and we

1500
01:32:14,920 --> 01:32:22,120
Speaker 1: went through it a second time. Very intense, you know, firing, Uh,

1501
01:32:22,640 --> 01:32:25,120
Speaker 1: we there was I don't know why we didn't have

1502
01:32:25,640 --> 01:32:29,720
Speaker 1: jets we could are a C one thirty support to

1503
01:32:29,880 --> 01:32:34,479
Speaker 1: suppress the fire. Why why that wasn't part of our plan.

1504
01:32:35,479 --> 01:32:38,479
Speaker 1: But they were totally ready for us. So we hovered

1505
01:32:38,520 --> 01:32:42,479
Speaker 1: around again. We couldn't get we couldn't get low enough

1506
01:32:42,520 --> 01:32:45,479
Speaker 1: for us to put the fast ropes down, and then

1507
01:32:45,520 --> 01:32:49,960
Speaker 1: we pulled off and landed out there by the airfield,

1508
01:32:50,000 --> 01:32:55,960
Speaker 1: Selina's airfield. We only had one helicopter that was fliable,

1509
01:32:56,520 --> 01:32:59,120
Speaker 1: so we loaded to put two teams in that helicopter.

1510
01:32:59,160 --> 01:33:01,680
Speaker 1: Are the team. I was on another team, and we

1511
01:33:01,760 --> 01:33:05,600
Speaker 1: flew back to where helicopter four had crashed and we

1512
01:33:05,680 --> 01:33:08,600
Speaker 1: secured that site. So we got a medivac helicopter in

1513
01:33:08,720 --> 01:33:13,520
Speaker 1: there to get those guys out of that there. And

1514
01:33:13,520 --> 01:33:17,639
Speaker 1: then after we had pulled off the site, they opened

1515
01:33:17,720 --> 01:33:22,120
Speaker 1: up the jail and released all the political prisoners and

1516
01:33:22,280 --> 01:33:26,760
Speaker 1: that was it. Our mission was done. We had of

1517
01:33:26,840 --> 01:33:30,920
Speaker 1: our I think we had seven team wounded guys from

1518
01:33:30,960 --> 01:33:38,160
Speaker 1: Delta on that mission. It's incredible. Yeah, And because of

1519
01:33:38,200 --> 01:33:41,240
Speaker 1: that mission, they looked at what went wrong with you know,

1520
01:33:41,360 --> 01:33:44,240
Speaker 1: the interface with the Marines doing the Marines doing the

1521
01:33:44,280 --> 01:33:48,080
Speaker 1: amphibious landings. And all the coordination problems. There was a

1522
01:33:48,120 --> 01:33:57,640
Speaker 1: lot of uh, friendly fire deaths more than tolerable. And

1523
01:33:57,680 --> 01:34:05,520
Speaker 1: so after reviewing what went wrong in Operation Urgent fury Um,

1524
01:34:05,640 --> 01:34:11,000
Speaker 1: that's when USOCOM was formed up to correct those problems,

1525
01:34:11,120 --> 01:34:17,800
Speaker 1: right right, That was the Goldwater Nichols act Um. Yeah,

1526
01:34:18,000 --> 01:34:20,559
Speaker 1: it's I guess it's important to remember for you know,

1527
01:34:20,720 --> 01:34:22,680
Speaker 1: some of the people who are listening that, you know,

1528
01:34:22,760 --> 01:34:25,080
Speaker 1: one of the things that the United States Military does

1529
01:34:25,120 --> 01:34:28,799
Speaker 1: better than anyone else's joint operations. But it wasn't always

1530
01:34:28,840 --> 01:34:32,479
Speaker 1: like that. You know, there are some really hard lessons learned. Uh,

1531
01:34:32,520 --> 01:34:35,400
Speaker 1: you know that Stargeant major Windings talking about you know,

1532
01:34:35,680 --> 01:34:38,000
Speaker 1: so Calm and Jay Sock and all these great things

1533
01:34:38,479 --> 01:34:42,200
Speaker 1: um or other, just general you know, interoperability between these

1534
01:34:42,200 --> 01:34:44,760
Speaker 1: four services. You know that there's a long time for

1535
01:34:44,800 --> 01:34:47,120
Speaker 1: that to come around and get to where it is today.

1536
01:34:47,240 --> 01:34:50,320
Speaker 1: It is, there was a lot of growing pains, costly

1537
01:34:50,439 --> 01:34:56,200
Speaker 1: growing pains, UM. But I'm proud of the special operations

1538
01:34:56,720 --> 01:35:00,240
Speaker 1: capability that we have today and all the spe show

1539
01:35:00,240 --> 01:35:04,439
Speaker 1: operators that we have today. Well, you know, I came

1540
01:35:04,479 --> 01:35:08,040
Speaker 1: into the Army in two thousand two, so I feel

1541
01:35:08,080 --> 01:35:11,920
Speaker 1: like I really inherited you know, something that you had created,

1542
01:35:11,960 --> 01:35:14,800
Speaker 1: you and your peers had created for you know, my generation,

1543
01:35:14,840 --> 01:35:17,640
Speaker 1: and we got there. We really stood on your shoulders

1544
01:35:17,920 --> 01:35:21,680
Speaker 1: when we went into Iraq, we went into Afghanistan. We

1545
01:35:21,720 --> 01:35:24,439
Speaker 1: didn't have to repeat all those same mistakes because of

1546
01:35:24,600 --> 01:35:26,639
Speaker 1: what you guys had built. And you know, I really

1547
01:35:26,640 --> 01:35:29,240
Speaker 1: appreciate that, and that's why I love having people like

1548
01:35:29,360 --> 01:35:33,599
Speaker 1: you on this podcast. Yeah, you know, you know, being

1549
01:35:33,640 --> 01:35:38,880
Speaker 1: it to communicate, uh using satellite communication that was in

1550
01:35:38,920 --> 01:35:45,080
Speaker 1: the infancy, satellite communications secure was and all that stuff

1551
01:35:45,160 --> 01:35:49,880
Speaker 1: was developed and all the different equipment was developed from

1552
01:35:49,920 --> 01:35:53,559
Speaker 1: all those early missions. Well, I know we're we're like

1553
01:35:53,760 --> 01:35:57,200
Speaker 1: plowing through things so quickly, and um, you know your

1554
01:35:57,240 --> 01:35:59,439
Speaker 1: career is so extensive, and there's no way where we're

1555
01:35:59,479 --> 01:36:01,679
Speaker 1: going to example, and yeah, we could do a part

1556
01:36:01,720 --> 01:36:05,160
Speaker 1: two if if if Sergeant Major Vinding is willing, because

1557
01:36:05,280 --> 01:36:11,080
Speaker 1: I feel like we're just scratching the surface, I'd be willing. Um,

1558
01:36:11,200 --> 01:36:12,920
Speaker 1: yeah you want, you want to do that, but um,

1559
01:36:12,960 --> 01:36:15,639
Speaker 1: and we can talk because uh there's also desert storm

1560
01:36:15,680 --> 01:36:18,160
Speaker 1: in Haiti and maybe we can talk about that next time. Yeah,

1561
01:36:18,280 --> 01:36:20,280
Speaker 1: I mean there's a ton to get to. I I agree.

1562
01:36:20,280 --> 01:36:23,000
Speaker 1: I think that this is you know, we've spoken with

1563
01:36:23,040 --> 01:36:27,040
Speaker 1: you for well over an hour right now, there's a

1564
01:36:27,040 --> 01:36:30,320
Speaker 1: ton Okay, yeah, yeah, maybe we'll not uh, you know,

1565
01:36:30,400 --> 01:36:33,840
Speaker 1: give give Sergeant Major Vinding a break if I just

1566
01:36:34,080 --> 01:36:36,439
Speaker 1: throw in one question that that you know, just from

1567
01:36:36,479 --> 01:36:40,400
Speaker 1: all these fascinating stories that you've told, Sergeant Major Binding, Um,

1568
01:36:40,760 --> 01:36:42,640
Speaker 1: I have to ask, like, do you feel lucky to

1569
01:36:42,640 --> 01:36:45,160
Speaker 1: be alive? I mean not only alive. I'm looking at

1570
01:36:45,200 --> 01:36:47,080
Speaker 1: you right now. You're not only in one piece. You

1571
01:36:47,120 --> 01:36:49,719
Speaker 1: look to be in in great health. And you've probably

1572
01:36:49,720 --> 01:36:52,800
Speaker 1: had more brushes with death than just about anybody with

1573
01:36:52,840 --> 01:36:55,880
Speaker 1: all these stories that you've told. I have. I was

1574
01:36:56,520 --> 01:37:00,240
Speaker 1: actually one time in Vietnam, I had a rock get

1575
01:37:00,240 --> 01:37:03,599
Speaker 1: blow up at XM seventy four liquid and cindery rocket

1576
01:37:03,840 --> 01:37:07,080
Speaker 1: right in front of me. Um blow up in a

1577
01:37:07,080 --> 01:37:09,600
Speaker 1: pile of ammunition. We were doing an ammo dump. It

1578
01:37:09,680 --> 01:37:12,360
Speaker 1: blew up, and we were doing cleanup on that, and

1579
01:37:12,439 --> 01:37:16,880
Speaker 1: that rocket detonated, and Um, I thought I was dead.

1580
01:37:16,960 --> 01:37:20,320
Speaker 1: Everything was orange, everything was hot. I thought that whole

1581
01:37:20,320 --> 01:37:24,080
Speaker 1: pile of ammunition had just detonated, and I was dead

1582
01:37:24,200 --> 01:37:27,680
Speaker 1: until I felt pain and I grabbed my arm and

1583
01:37:27,760 --> 01:37:32,920
Speaker 1: I ran, and then I looked down and to see

1584
01:37:32,960 --> 01:37:36,240
Speaker 1: if they even had legs that I was even running,

1585
01:37:36,840 --> 01:37:40,559
Speaker 1: and I did. I had my jungle fatigues on, my

1586
01:37:40,640 --> 01:37:43,800
Speaker 1: bush hat on, and but I looked like that cot

1587
01:37:43,840 --> 01:37:47,519
Speaker 1: Wiley coyote who had just went into the dynamite locker

1588
01:37:47,600 --> 01:37:50,880
Speaker 1: and lit a match to see where he was. Uh,

1589
01:37:51,080 --> 01:37:55,280
Speaker 1: my had holes in my uniform, was smoking. And then

1590
01:37:56,200 --> 01:38:00,599
Speaker 1: there four guys that were helping us. Um, they were

1591
01:38:00,640 --> 01:38:03,000
Speaker 1: burn't really bad, and so we had to get them

1592
01:38:03,000 --> 01:38:07,280
Speaker 1: out and meta act. But I thought I was actually dead.

1593
01:38:07,439 --> 01:38:10,760
Speaker 1: I didn't think i'd survive. Uh in that C one

1594
01:38:10,840 --> 01:38:14,600
Speaker 1: thirty and on Desert one, I thought that there was

1595
01:38:14,800 --> 01:38:20,920
Speaker 1: impossible to to exit that aircraft. Um, yeah, there there's

1596
01:38:21,040 --> 01:38:27,880
Speaker 1: been many times. Um. There's also you know when we

1597
01:38:27,920 --> 01:38:30,320
Speaker 1: have when we do part two. Also, I want to

1598
01:38:30,360 --> 01:38:33,840
Speaker 1: ask I'll talk a little bit about your retirement, because

1599
01:38:33,840 --> 01:38:38,280
Speaker 1: the whole life after service is something important also, and

1600
01:38:38,360 --> 01:38:40,080
Speaker 1: I get the sense that you and your wife have

1601
01:38:40,120 --> 01:38:43,920
Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of fun traveling around the country. We did,

1602
01:38:44,040 --> 01:38:48,200
Speaker 1: we travel like last year we were gone. We were

1603
01:38:48,439 --> 01:38:51,640
Speaker 1: more than we were at home traveling. We'll have to

1604
01:38:51,680 --> 01:38:55,000
Speaker 1: talk about all that. I think it's great. Yeah, and

1605
01:38:55,200 --> 01:38:58,679
Speaker 1: I mentioned it earlier for those wondering what major binding started.

1606
01:38:58,720 --> 01:39:01,960
Speaker 1: Major binding is up to now. UM. He's currently working

1607
01:39:01,960 --> 01:39:04,439
Speaker 1: at the National e O D Association and the e

1608
01:39:04,560 --> 01:39:07,640
Speaker 1: O D Warrior Foundation UM, the first of which you

1609
01:39:07,680 --> 01:39:10,400
Speaker 1: can visit online at any T e O D A

1610
01:39:10,920 --> 01:39:13,559
Speaker 1: dot com and a T e O D a dot

1611
01:39:13,600 --> 01:39:17,200
Speaker 1: com and then e O D Warrior Foundation dot org.

1612
01:39:17,680 --> 01:39:19,360
Speaker 1: Is there anything else that that you want to get

1613
01:39:19,400 --> 01:39:24,040
Speaker 1: out there now? Just my recent work is we're doing

1614
01:39:24,160 --> 01:39:28,439
Speaker 1: research from the past from World War Two to Korea

1615
01:39:29,280 --> 01:39:34,679
Speaker 1: and looking for UH names that were lost to history

1616
01:39:34,760 --> 01:39:37,080
Speaker 1: that should be on the e O D Memorial that's

1617
01:39:37,160 --> 01:39:41,120
Speaker 1: located in Eglin Air Force Base. So like this year

1618
01:39:41,479 --> 01:39:45,000
Speaker 1: right now and May first Saturday in May is National

1619
01:39:45,080 --> 01:39:48,679
Speaker 1: e O D Day. So far this year we're gonna

1620
01:39:48,720 --> 01:39:52,719
Speaker 1: add six army names from the past and three Navy

1621
01:39:52,800 --> 01:39:56,240
Speaker 1: names from the past to the e O D Memorial.

1622
01:39:56,640 --> 01:39:59,439
Speaker 1: And I have a team that helps me and we

1623
01:39:59,520 --> 01:40:04,000
Speaker 1: reserve going through old documents and the Internet trying to

1624
01:40:04,040 --> 01:40:09,080
Speaker 1: find names UM that we have missed on our UD Memorial,

1625
01:40:09,680 --> 01:40:13,640
Speaker 1: which was first established in nineteen seventy. So we've you know,

1626
01:40:13,680 --> 01:40:17,559
Speaker 1: we didn't have a good handle on those early deaths

1627
01:40:17,640 --> 01:40:21,960
Speaker 1: from wor War two and Korea. Well, thanks for all

1628
01:40:22,040 --> 01:40:24,320
Speaker 1: the work you've done and continue to do well. You know,

1629
01:40:24,439 --> 01:40:26,640
Speaker 1: I really appreciate it. And um, you know, I'm so

1630
01:40:26,640 --> 01:40:29,599
Speaker 1: glad that we could have you on today. Well, thanks

1631
01:40:29,600 --> 01:40:32,559
Speaker 1: you and Jack, thank you so much that well, we'll

1632
01:40:32,560 --> 01:40:34,519
Speaker 1: have to give you a colon. Will will schedule to

1633
01:40:34,560 --> 01:40:36,240
Speaker 1: have you on another time and you know that works

1634
01:40:36,280 --> 01:40:40,639
Speaker 1: for you. Okay, but this has been super cool. It's

1635
01:40:40,640 --> 01:40:44,280
Speaker 1: been a pleasure. All right, we'll talk again soon. Thank you. So,

1636
01:40:44,320 --> 01:40:46,439
Speaker 1: I guess before we head out of here, the only

1637
01:40:46,439 --> 01:40:49,160
Speaker 1: other thing I wanted to mention, Um, if you know

1638
01:40:49,439 --> 01:40:50,720
Speaker 1: I was going to play the audio, I don't know

1639
01:40:50,760 --> 01:40:52,439
Speaker 1: if you want to save it for maybe next show.

1640
01:40:53,040 --> 01:40:55,639
Speaker 1: Since we've gone pretty long here, I'm down to keep going.

1641
01:40:55,680 --> 01:40:58,280
Speaker 1: But we have throw a punch of the week, which

1642
01:40:58,520 --> 01:41:01,759
Speaker 1: I think rightfully goes to this California history and social

1643
01:41:01,760 --> 01:41:06,840
Speaker 1: studies teacher Gregory uh South Sito Rancho High School. It's

1644
01:41:06,880 --> 01:41:08,360
Speaker 1: up to do you think we should play the audio now?

1645
01:41:08,360 --> 01:41:10,240
Speaker 1: I don't want to. I don't want to play the audio. Yeah,

1646
01:41:10,560 --> 01:41:12,920
Speaker 1: it was too awesome of a show to damper it with.

1647
01:41:13,160 --> 01:41:16,280
Speaker 1: So people can go and Uh, I think Alex wrote

1648
01:41:16,280 --> 01:41:18,519
Speaker 1: an article about it on Software and they can go

1649
01:41:18,560 --> 01:41:20,680
Speaker 1: and listen to it if they want. Yeah, we can

1650
01:41:20,760 --> 01:41:23,439
Speaker 1: maybe even play it. But yeah, that that the public

1651
01:41:23,479 --> 01:41:26,200
Speaker 1: school teacher. And he went on like a huge rant,

1652
01:41:26,280 --> 01:41:29,080
Speaker 1: like anti military range six minutes long. So it's not

1653
01:41:29,160 --> 01:41:31,080
Speaker 1: like he could say, oh, I misspoke, and it was

1654
01:41:31,439 --> 01:41:34,840
Speaker 1: you know, he compared military recruiters on campus to having

1655
01:41:34,880 --> 01:41:39,040
Speaker 1: like pimps on campus recruiting prostitutes. It was it was

1656
01:41:39,160 --> 01:41:42,439
Speaker 1: it was super unprofessional, and you know, it goes beyond

1657
01:41:42,760 --> 01:41:46,000
Speaker 1: you know, I as a teacher, a public school teacher,

1658
01:41:46,040 --> 01:41:49,280
Speaker 1: I mean it's always hard to be you know, give

1659
01:41:49,320 --> 01:41:52,160
Speaker 1: a totally unbiased view. You know, those things are going

1660
01:41:52,200 --> 01:41:54,240
Speaker 1: to seep in. Like if I were to teach a class,

1661
01:41:54,400 --> 01:41:56,680
Speaker 1: you know, I would probably be more pro military, you know,

1662
01:41:56,760 --> 01:41:58,960
Speaker 1: and people go, well, you're biased, Well yeah, you say

1663
01:41:58,960 --> 01:42:02,160
Speaker 1: that Army rangers are cool or the Navy, Yeah, well something.

1664
01:42:02,479 --> 01:42:04,120
Speaker 1: Some of that stuff will come through a little bit.

1665
01:42:04,120 --> 01:42:06,760
Speaker 1: And I think we can understand that. But this guy

1666
01:42:07,000 --> 01:42:09,400
Speaker 1: was just like going off on a tangent to the

1667
01:42:09,439 --> 01:42:12,080
Speaker 1: point that it's like it's not even expressing an opinion,

1668
01:42:12,200 --> 01:42:17,439
Speaker 1: like the military is bad because of this and that. Yeah, yeah,

1669
01:42:17,479 --> 01:42:21,000
Speaker 1: it's just really childish stuff. So I don't know why

1670
01:42:21,320 --> 01:42:23,280
Speaker 1: the guy felt the need to do that, especially in

1671
01:42:23,280 --> 01:42:25,040
Speaker 1: front of, you know, a bunch of kids. Yeah, and

1672
01:42:25,080 --> 01:42:27,840
Speaker 1: this is the third time he's been put on administrative leave.

1673
01:42:27,920 --> 01:42:30,680
Speaker 1: So this guy is a history. He's also a politician. Um,

1674
01:42:30,760 --> 01:42:34,360
Speaker 1: like local politician two ten threatened to kill a sixteen

1675
01:42:34,400 --> 01:42:36,559
Speaker 1: year old girl in the class, or at least said

1676
01:42:36,560 --> 01:42:39,559
Speaker 1: I'm gonna kill you twelve. He bullied some kids and

1677
01:42:39,560 --> 01:42:41,720
Speaker 1: called them chas bonus. We'll leave it at that. They're

1678
01:42:41,720 --> 01:42:45,599
Speaker 1: a punch of the week. Gregory south Sito, Um, after

1679
01:42:45,680 --> 01:42:47,280
Speaker 1: you're in, Mike Vining, I feel like he'd be a

1680
01:42:47,320 --> 01:42:50,519
Speaker 1: great guy to do some guest pieces for software. I mean,

1681
01:42:50,840 --> 01:42:54,360
Speaker 1: he's definitely a really smart, well spoken guy, and I

1682
01:42:54,680 --> 01:42:57,639
Speaker 1: bet he can write some really interesting stuff. He has

1683
01:42:57,800 --> 01:42:59,840
Speaker 1: written some stuff. I don't know if he would be

1684
01:42:59,840 --> 01:43:02,080
Speaker 1: in rested in having it published or not. If he is,

1685
01:43:02,160 --> 01:43:05,760
Speaker 1: I'd be absolutely thrilled to host that. I mean, the

1686
01:43:05,800 --> 01:43:09,800
Speaker 1: amount of stories this guy has. He's been there, been there,

1687
01:43:09,880 --> 01:43:13,640
Speaker 1: done that. Um, you know, he really was on the

1688
01:43:13,640 --> 01:43:18,000
Speaker 1: ground floor for you know, American counter terrorism, you know,

1689
01:43:18,120 --> 01:43:21,479
Speaker 1: all through the seventies, eighties into the nineties. I mean

1690
01:43:21,760 --> 01:43:25,160
Speaker 1: he was there. Um, he's definitely got some stories. Yeah,

1691
01:43:25,400 --> 01:43:28,280
Speaker 1: Now I loved hearing from him. Um. And also just

1692
01:43:29,040 --> 01:43:32,760
Speaker 1: the jobs that he did must have been terrifying, you know.

1693
01:43:32,840 --> 01:43:35,880
Speaker 1: And and we always talk about how guys in the military,

1694
01:43:35,920 --> 01:43:38,200
Speaker 1: guys in special ops, it's not that they don't have fear,

1695
01:43:38,280 --> 01:43:39,880
Speaker 1: they just have to put that fierce side and do

1696
01:43:39,960 --> 01:43:42,400
Speaker 1: the job. And to hear about that Bob Dole bomb

1697
01:43:42,520 --> 01:43:45,240
Speaker 1: scare which turned into you know, an actual bombing good

1698
01:43:45,240 --> 01:43:48,400
Speaker 1: friend of his getting killed. Yeah, I couldn't imagine having

1699
01:43:48,439 --> 01:43:51,759
Speaker 1: to do that line of work. It's yeah, it's wild,

1700
01:43:52,160 --> 01:43:55,360
Speaker 1: you know, being on trapped on an aircraft that's on

1701
01:43:55,479 --> 01:43:58,680
Speaker 1: fire and there's just a fireball coming down behind you

1702
01:43:58,720 --> 01:44:03,000
Speaker 1: through the fuselage, Like I can't even begin to imagine.

1703
01:44:03,120 --> 01:44:05,240
Speaker 1: And and the crazy thing is like this is a

1704
01:44:05,360 --> 01:44:08,760
Speaker 1: name that overall not a lot of people know and

1705
01:44:08,880 --> 01:44:13,559
Speaker 1: probably should know. I have my opinions, of course, you know,

1706
01:44:13,920 --> 01:44:16,880
Speaker 1: and I don't I try not to go off on

1707
01:44:17,240 --> 01:44:19,599
Speaker 1: you know, like hero worship or anything like that, because

1708
01:44:19,640 --> 01:44:23,640
Speaker 1: I'd really embarrass some of these guys. Um. You know.

1709
01:44:23,760 --> 01:44:27,320
Speaker 1: I actually I called a retired squadron commander one time

1710
01:44:27,400 --> 01:44:29,960
Speaker 1: and talked to him and he's like, Murphy, do not

1711
01:44:30,040 --> 01:44:32,360
Speaker 1: get into like calling me a hero or any of

1712
01:44:32,360 --> 01:44:34,680
Speaker 1: that kind of business. I'm like, I'm not don't. I

1713
01:44:34,800 --> 01:44:36,960
Speaker 1: just want to talk about, you know, what happened, what

1714
01:44:37,040 --> 01:44:40,479
Speaker 1: didn't happen. Um. This was actually when I was writing

1715
01:44:40,479 --> 01:44:44,519
Speaker 1: that Blue Light article. Um, but you know these guys

1716
01:44:44,600 --> 01:44:47,680
Speaker 1: are you know, there are predecessors, you know, And I

1717
01:44:47,720 --> 01:44:50,519
Speaker 1: wasn't kidding what I what I said to Mike finding

1718
01:44:50,640 --> 01:44:54,880
Speaker 1: was they built something that when nine eleven happened, America

1719
01:44:55,000 --> 01:44:59,360
Speaker 1: wasn't completely fat, flat footed. We had the organizational structures

1720
01:44:59,360 --> 01:45:02,160
Speaker 1: we had so um, we had Jay socer, we had

1721
01:45:02,200 --> 01:45:07,559
Speaker 1: these elements that could respond. If Mike Vining and his

1722
01:45:07,640 --> 01:45:10,599
Speaker 1: peer group had not created those things and built those

1723
01:45:10,640 --> 01:45:13,840
Speaker 1: capabilities up, imagine if nine eleven happened and we're starting

1724
01:45:13,880 --> 01:45:17,280
Speaker 1: from scratch, we wouldn't have been able to do anything.

1725
01:45:17,960 --> 01:45:21,200
Speaker 1: And he truly is an originator because when you see

1726
01:45:21,280 --> 01:45:25,840
Speaker 1: that he was in the first OTC class OTC Class one. Amazing. Yeah,

1727
01:45:26,080 --> 01:45:29,360
Speaker 1: so great having Mike on. I'm I'm you know, it's

1728
01:45:29,400 --> 01:45:31,400
Speaker 1: awesome that we have you and he's a he's a

1729
01:45:31,400 --> 01:45:35,800
Speaker 1: super nice guy too. Yeah, he really was absolutely uh so,

1730
01:45:36,000 --> 01:45:38,360
Speaker 1: last thing before we get out of here, and of

1731
01:45:38,400 --> 01:45:40,719
Speaker 1: course it's always important to talk about as a reminder

1732
01:45:40,760 --> 01:45:42,960
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Speaker 1: And now at these podcasts, multiple podcasts a week um

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Speaker 1: all that we ask leave a review on Apple podcasts

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Speaker 1: that really helps us out and helps get our visibility up. Um.

1764
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Speaker 1: And that's that's it on my end man. Great show. Yeah,

1765
01:47:37,840 --> 01:47:41,160
Speaker 1: that's awesome, absolutely all right, So we'll see you next

1766
01:47:41,200 --> 01:47:46,040
Speaker 1: show with Buck Sexton and we're at You've been listening

1767
01:47:46,080 --> 01:47:50,080
Speaker 1: to self Rep Radio. New episodes up every Wednesday and

1768
01:47:50,120 --> 01:47:54,160
Speaker 1: Friday for all of the great content from our veteran journalists.

1769
01:47:54,479 --> 01:47:57,400
Speaker 1: Join us and become a team room member today at

1770
01:47:57,479 --> 01:48:00,920
Speaker 1: soft rep dot com. Follow the show on Instagram and

1771
01:48:01,000 --> 01:48:04,800
Speaker 1: Twitter at soft rep Radio, and be sure to also

1772
01:48:04,920 --> 01:48:09,080
Speaker 1: check out the Power of Thought podcast hosted by Hurricane

1773
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Speaker 1: Group CEO and Navy Seal Sniper instructor Brandon Webb, M