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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group, or if you've had

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Speaker 1: an experience with manipulation or abuse of power you'd like

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Speaker 1: to share, leave us a message on our hotline number

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Speaker 1: at five one three nine hundred two nine five five, or.

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Speaker 2: Shoot us an email at trust Me pod at gmail

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Speaker 2: dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust Me trust Me.

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Speaker 4: I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 5: I've never lied to you, I never had a live

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Speaker 5: If you think.

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Speaker 1: That one person has all the answers, don't Welcome to

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Speaker 1: trust Me the podcast about cult, extreme belief and the

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Speaker 1: abusive power from two tyrants who've actually experienced it.

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Speaker 5: I'm Lola Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth.

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Speaker 1: Today, fittingly, our guest is friend of the show Jonas

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Speaker 1: Bell Pasht, who is one of the executive producers of

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Speaker 1: the new Netflix documentary series How to Become a Tyrant.

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Speaker 1: It's narrated by Peter Dinklage of Game of Thrones Fame.

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Speaker 3: It is so good.

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Speaker 1: He's going to talk to us about tyrants and dictators

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Speaker 1: that they discuss on the show, from Hitler to Stalin,

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Speaker 1: to Mean to Saddam Hussein, and some of the more

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Speaker 1: interesting things he learned about dictators and about the patterns

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Speaker 1: that he's seen among them.

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Speaker 3: In the process of making the show.

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Speaker 2: We'll discuss the parallels between tyrants and cult leaders, the

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Speaker 2: ways the dictators rise to power by praying on a

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Speaker 2: society's actual want and needs, and the red flags we

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Speaker 2: should all be on the lookout for.

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Speaker 1: I've known Jonahs for so many years, and we just

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Speaker 1: never have really talked that much. This is probably the

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Speaker 1: most in depth conversation I've ever had with him, because

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Speaker 1: I just know him kind of socially, you know, and

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Speaker 1: it was very, very enlightenings. He knows lots of interesting things.

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Speaker 1: It turns out, Yeah, he's great. He's so knowledgeable about everything,

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Speaker 1: and especially fashion. Every time I go out, I run

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Speaker 1: into him and I get a masterclass on fashion. I

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Speaker 1: was gonna say he was always the guy who knew

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Speaker 1: about fashion, was very sharply dressed, but turns out he

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Speaker 1: knows about Moily fashion.

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Speaker 3: Love you, Jonas.

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Speaker 1: All right, Well, before we talk to him, Megan, would

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Speaker 1: you like to tell me what the cult the thing

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Speaker 1: that's happened to you this week was?

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Speaker 4: Oh?

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Speaker 2: Sure, you know, it's a little real right now, It's

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Speaker 2: a little scary because it's still happening. But essentially, I'm

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Speaker 2: in a band that's like a joke. It's a joke

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Speaker 2: band where we make jokes songs.

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Speaker 4: And.

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Speaker 5: I've been having like everything.

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Speaker 2: I'm not one of those people who's like everything's politically

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Speaker 2: incorrect these days and I hate it, but everything is

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Speaker 2: just like not funny right now, you know, like everything's

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Speaker 2: a hot button topic.

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Speaker 5: So I'm just having a lot.

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Speaker 2: Of trouble figuring out what's funny what's not. And I

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Speaker 2: have a lot of people from the cult of comedy

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Speaker 2: talking to me about how there is no limit, just

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Speaker 2: do whatever you think is funny, and that's what comedy is,

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Speaker 2: you know, to an extent.

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Speaker 5: Obviously, I'm talking to very h It's.

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Speaker 2: Not like you know what I mean, but uh, it's

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Speaker 2: a weird world because I really don't know where the

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Speaker 2: line is or what to do.

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Speaker 1: Have you had people be upset about some of the songs.

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Speaker 2: One person was not upset, but just like made an

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Speaker 2: observation about one of the songs, and I asked about

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Speaker 2: it to my followers and everybody was like.

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Speaker 5: Oh no.

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Speaker 2: It surprised me because I thought more people would be offended,

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Speaker 2: but everyone was just like, no, it's comedy.

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Speaker 5: It's funny, it's fine, And I was like, oh, it was.

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Speaker 1: This song about for our listeners.

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Speaker 2: Oh, it's a song about boys emotions. It's called Boy's

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Speaker 2: Emotions by Crazy Girl Therapy, if you are so inclined.

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Speaker 2: But it's just it's about how boys are like super

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Speaker 2: dumb emotionally, and I was afraid that it would be

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Speaker 2: extremely offensive, especially to the younger generation, where you know,

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Speaker 2: their gender is so fluid and whatever. But it turns

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Speaker 2: out the younger generation has no idea that we exist

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Speaker 2: and our generation things it's fine, So it's all good.

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Speaker 1: I really liked that song. I relate to that song.

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Speaker 1: It was my head the other day. What yeah, do

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Speaker 1: you have fear?

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Speaker 4: No?

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Speaker 3: Do you have faith?

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Speaker 4: No?

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Speaker 3: Are you alive?

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Speaker 4: No?

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Speaker 2: And then he goes, but I quite like you, and

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Speaker 2: you're like, yep, there it is.

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Speaker 5: That's a fucking relationship.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to dating men. Okay.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So the next video up on the queue is it's

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Speaker 2: a step up by a lot, and it's a little

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Speaker 2: scary for me, but uh, the cult of comedy is

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Speaker 2: holding me tight and telling me it's fine, and so

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Speaker 2: I'm just.

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Speaker 5: Going to go for it.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to go for it well, as long as

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Speaker 1: there's no like overt racism. No, no, I feel like

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Speaker 1: you're probably fine. I'm imagining you're not doing anything that's

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Speaker 1: like actually problematic, and it is more just like.

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Speaker 5: I'm using a word that is incredibly offensive.

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Speaker 1: Uh oh yeah, I'm using I'm using a word in

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Speaker 1: a different way.

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Speaker 2: You know what, You guys will just have to watch

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Speaker 2: and okay, watch and cancel.

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Speaker 3: I'm intrigued. I can't wait to cancel you.

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Speaker 2: What about you?

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Speaker 3: My favorite hobby. I was just.

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Speaker 1: Reading an article which full disclosure, I read it pretty

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Speaker 1: quickly because I just was sent the link like right

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Speaker 1: before this interview, so I really have to dive deeper

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Speaker 1: into it because it's pretty dense. But my friend Emily,

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Speaker 1: who listened to the show shout out, Emily if you're

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Speaker 1: listening to this episode, sent me this article on Salon.

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Speaker 1: It's an interview with a researcher I guess called Michael

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Speaker 1: bang Peterson, which a pretty pretty fuck cool name or so.

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Speaker 3: He's a social scientist.

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Speaker 1: And the whole thing that he explored in his I

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Speaker 1: think dissertation is why people believe in like blatantly false

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Speaker 1: information or outrageous lives. And I think that's something that

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Speaker 1: a lot of us have been wondering as it pertains

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Speaker 1: to our political sphere, as it pertains to cults, as

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Speaker 1: it pertains to religion. It's just like one of the

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Speaker 1: big questions right now is like why are people believing

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Speaker 1: this stuff that's like so obviously outlandishly not correct, you know,

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Speaker 1: conspiracy theories. So what he's saying, his theory that he's

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Speaker 1: positing is that it has nothing to do with ignorance,

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Speaker 1: It has nothing to do with intelligence. It's evolutionarily adaptive

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Speaker 1: because what it does is it signals commitment to the

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Speaker 1: group that you are in or the group that you

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Speaker 1: are wont to be in, and it basically like indicates

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Speaker 1: to the other members of the group that you're a

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Speaker 1: loyal member because it's so outrageous that like a person

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Speaker 1: who's not in the group wouldn't believe it. So it

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Speaker 1: actually like gives you higher status in the group to

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Speaker 1: believe this thing that other people wouldn't believe. It signals that, like,

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Speaker 1: you have a history with this belief system with these people,

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Speaker 1: you are a part of it. And then also he

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Speaker 1: was talking about how like it can be taken even

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Speaker 1: further or like another element of it, I guess is

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Speaker 1: that if the outrageous belief is counter to what you're

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Speaker 1: like outgroup or your enemy group believes, then you're more

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Speaker 1: likely to double down and get extreme with it. It's like,

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Speaker 1: if you hate Libs or whatever, and you know that

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Speaker 1: Libs believe in climate change and your group is against

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Speaker 1: you know, Libs are not your group Libs, then it

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Speaker 1: would be in your interest in you know, in the

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Speaker 1: interest of social cohesion, group cohesion to be like, well,

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Speaker 1: they believe that, therefore I believe the opposite of that.

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Speaker 1: Not only do I believe the opposite of that, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to believe in even more extreme conspiracy theory about

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Speaker 1: it because the group that I'm in is the enemy

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Speaker 1: of the group that believes that, and we're gonna take

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Speaker 1: it even farther in the other direction.

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Speaker 3: Right, And then you know, I'm super super interesting.

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Speaker 1: He also talks about and I have to like again

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Speaker 1: dive a little bit deeper because I didn't get to

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Speaker 1: go as thoroughly as I wanted, But group mobilization for

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Speaker 1: conflict one really really strong way to mobilize your group

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Speaker 1: and to like get the group that you're into act

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Speaker 1: or to you know, to do something that needs to

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Speaker 1: be done is by having something kind of outrageous that

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Speaker 1: like rallies everyone around that's like very stimulating or whatever.

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Speaker 1: I don't know that's my word, But do.

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Speaker 5: You have an example.

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Speaker 1: Well, well, one of the things they talked about was

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Speaker 1: like how before a genocide. I mean, and obviously that's

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Speaker 1: you know, an extreme version, but it's very common to

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Speaker 1: spread political rumors about the group that you are preparing

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Speaker 1: to act on. So it's like, I don't really understand

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Speaker 1: what comes first, but I know that like when in

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Speaker 1: preparation for like some kind of you know, mass genocide,

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Speaker 1: like you have to convince everybody that the people you're

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Speaker 1: gonna kill are like fucked up and engaging in some

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Speaker 1: horrible conspiracy.

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Speaker 2: Right, I guess Jojo Rabbit is like the satirical version

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Speaker 2: of that.

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Speaker 5: Have you seen that?

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Speaker 1: Uh?

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Speaker 4: I have?

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Speaker 1: But can you remind me specifically what part you're talking about?

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Speaker 2: The teachers are like Jews have horns and they live

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Speaker 2: upside down in caves, you know, and they just go

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Speaker 2: so far with it.

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Speaker 1: Right, Well, I mean there's a long history of those

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Speaker 1: kinds of like outrageous outlandish rumors spreading about Jewish people

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Speaker 1: prior to the Holocaust. I mean that was a big,

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Speaker 1: big part of it is because you know, people actually

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Speaker 1: believed that they were the enemy that they right, you know,

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Speaker 1: like you have to convince people of these ridiculous, over

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Speaker 1: the top things, or why would they be on board

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Speaker 1: with genocide? You know, that's like a huge part of it,

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Speaker 1: but I think it probably extends beyond just like pre genocide.

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Speaker 1: And it's also just like if you're trying to mobilize

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Speaker 1: a group in any way, it's in the group's interest

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Speaker 1: to have something just like kind of flashy and wowza

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Speaker 1: to get them to do anything right. And then the

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Speaker 1: final element that I thought was interesting was that it

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Speaker 1: a certa dominance. And the example that they gave in

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Speaker 1: the article was Trump's inauguration and how he's he insisted

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Speaker 1: it was the biggest or the most well populated, even

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Speaker 1: though literally everybody can see that it was not that

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Speaker 1: there weren't that many people there. Because it's like so

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Speaker 1: ballsy to just outright say something that is false. It's

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Speaker 1: a it's like a dominant move. It like makes you

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Speaker 1: look like big and bad as I guess, because you're like,

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Speaker 1: I don't fucking care what the truth is like this

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Speaker 1: is what I'm saying, this is my truth, and like

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Speaker 1: that's somehow like really manly and masculine, and the group

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Speaker 1: is drawn to that.

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Speaker 5: Wow.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a really interesting article. It's it's on Salon.

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Speaker 1: It's called a terrifying new theory, fake news and conspiracy

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Speaker 1: theories as an evolutionary strategy. It makes perfect sense to me,

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Speaker 1: I mean, because why else, why else? Like I'm noticing

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Speaker 1: it even even in some people I know who are

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Speaker 1: like just ever so slightly beginning to lean to the

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Speaker 1: dark side and just in terms of you know, conspiracy

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Speaker 1: theories or maybe disbelieving science, And I'm like, what is it?

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Speaker 1: And I know that they happen to be surrounded by

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Speaker 1: information and by people who are, you know, kind of

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Speaker 1: teetering on that world, and like they're they're forming a connection,

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Speaker 1: They're like bonding over this thing that they're sharing that

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Speaker 1: is counter to the like mainstream.

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Speaker 3: View or whatever. It's really really fascinating to me.

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Speaker 1: And it totally makes sense in terms of cults as well,

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Speaker 1: Like we think of ourselves as people who are creatures

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Speaker 1: who value truth, and this is one of the things

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Speaker 1: they talk about too, So why would we believe something

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Speaker 1: that's not true, but it's like, well, truth isn't necessarily

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Speaker 1: evolutionarily necessary. What's necessary is to fit into the group

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Speaker 1: so you don't kicked out, so that you can survive,

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Speaker 1: you know.

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Speaker 2: Right, right, and kind of counter good news with apps

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Speaker 2: no proof to back it up because I forgot the

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Speaker 2: article a name or location. I did once to read

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Speaker 2: something about how the new intelligence is actually empathy and

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Speaker 2: we're kind of evolving to that being the highest form.

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Speaker 5: Of quote unquote intelligence. It was very interesting, but I.

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Speaker 1: Mean, it seems like societally we are evolving away from empathy.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but it does.

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Speaker 1: I do find that, you know, purely anecdotally, among my

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Speaker 1: most intelligent friends, I feel like the ones who are

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Speaker 1: leveling up in intelligence the most are the ones that

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Speaker 1: I was just talking to my same friend about this, Emily,

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Speaker 1: are the ones who don't need to be right and

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Speaker 1: just like want to connect with others and like you know,

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Speaker 1: value truth but also value their relationships and seeing other

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Speaker 1: people's perspectives and humanizing one another. Like I think, I

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Speaker 1: do think that that is a high form of intelligence. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's complex.

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Speaker 5: Baby.

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Speaker 3: Well, anyway, now that.

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Speaker 1: We've talked about that, should we start talking about some

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Speaker 1: fucking dictators.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, bet here we go.

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Speaker 1: Welcome friend of the show, Jonas Bell Pashed, Thank you

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Speaker 1: for coming.

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Speaker 4: Thank you very happy to be here.

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Speaker 3: Jonas.

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Speaker 1: I don't know all your many titles, but you are

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Speaker 1: an executive producer of the new Netflix show How to

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Speaker 1: Become a Tyrant, which is about dictators across the world.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell us, first of all, what does it

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Speaker 1: mean to be a dictator?

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Speaker 3: What is a tyrant?

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Speaker 4: Well, let's see, I guess a tyrant and a dictator

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Speaker 4: could be two different things.

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Speaker 5: Okay, Oh, and look, you.

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Speaker 4: Could be a dictator without being a tyrant. M But

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Speaker 4: a dictator, I guess to put it simply is someone

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Speaker 4: who rules with absolute rule over a nation. That's how

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Speaker 4: it's most commonly defined. Originally, the term dictator actually wasn't

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Speaker 4: even it didn't have a negative connotation the way it

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Speaker 4: does today. Really, yeah, I think in ancient Rome a

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Speaker 4: dictator was a magistrate, someone in the Senate who was

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Speaker 4: assigned the duties of being a dictator during a period

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Speaker 4: of emergency. And so I think it's really in the

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Speaker 4: twentieth century where it's taken a very harshly dark turn,

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Speaker 4: and it's become a very negative term.

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Speaker 3: Oh interesting side note.

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Speaker 1: Love the show, Uh, one of the best topics to explore.

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Speaker 3: It's so exciting, it's so interesting.

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Speaker 2: And it's hitting all the top of the charts. It's

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Speaker 2: off the Rickor scale. Everybody's ubsess that's the charts. Baby, baby, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you're gonna be a stun.

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Speaker 4: Look, it's been amazing to see how people all over

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Speaker 4: the world have responding to the show. And look at

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Speaker 4: the show is the playbook for how to rule the world.

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Speaker 4: So when we started the show a few years ago,

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Speaker 4: and I originally created this with my partner Jonah Beckor

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Speaker 4: who I run Citizen Jones, with the production company that

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Speaker 4: made the show, the idea of tyranny and dictatorships, it

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Speaker 4: was very much in the zeitgeist. This would have been

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Speaker 4: two thousand, sixteen, seventeen eighteen. Yeah, and look, I think

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Speaker 4: most people hear that and they attribute that to the

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Speaker 4: rise of Donald Trump. But the truth is, it's not

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Speaker 4: about Donald Trump. It is about power. It's about dictatorship.

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Speaker 4: And there has been a trend globally over the last

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Speaker 4: few years where there is a rise of sort of

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Speaker 4: authoritarian rule all around the globe. And so that was

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Speaker 4: a very zeitgeisty idea that was being discussed a lot

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Speaker 4: here in America but also abroad. And it's a subject

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Speaker 4: matter that I've always been super interested in power in particular,

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Speaker 4: but twentieth century dictators have always fascinated me. And the

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Speaker 4: truth is, when you study them, you realize they all

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Speaker 4: follow a version of the same playbook. They do a

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Speaker 4: version of the same thing over and over and over again.

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Speaker 4: And how is it that we allow these people, not

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Speaker 4: just allow them, how is it that we voluntarily bring

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Speaker 4: them to power over and over and over again? And

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Speaker 4: we thought, what an interesting way to kind of dust

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Speaker 4: off the subject of dictators and tyrants and create this

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Speaker 4: how to instruction manual for the audience, narrated by Peter Dinklice,

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Speaker 4: who better than Tyrian Lanister. Amazing to tell you the

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Speaker 4: tricks to achieving power.

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Speaker 1: What a powerful voice he has. By the way, I'm

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Speaker 1: like mesmerized by it as I'm watching.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And so anyway, that's the origin of

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Speaker 4: the project, and it's just been amazing to see people

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Speaker 4: around the globe responding and identifying the tactics used by

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Speaker 4: dictators in their own political leaders strikes.

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Speaker 1: By the way, right is there any part of you

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Speaker 1: that has a little bit of worry deep down that

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Speaker 1: someone is going to watch your show and then become

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Speaker 1: a dictator or retyrant.

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Speaker 4: I should say, well, you know that was so when

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Speaker 4: we were making this series. That was a big topic

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Speaker 4: of discussion with with Netflix, you know, and you can

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Speaker 4: understand there is something inherently kind of offensive about making

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Speaker 4: a how to instruction manual using Hitler and Saddam Hussein

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Speaker 4: as your prototypes, right, But I think our feeling was

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Speaker 4: always the minute risk that someone's going to take this

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Speaker 4: playbook and then try to become a dictator. Is overwhelmed

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Speaker 4: by the power of giving audiences the tactics and helping

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Speaker 4: them understand so that they can identify when others try

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Speaker 4: to do the same thing.

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Speaker 2: Right, It's like reverse psychology almost like we're going to

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Speaker 2: teach you how to do something, but like the real

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Speaker 2: power is in people learning when somebody's going to try

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Speaker 2: it on that right.

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Speaker 4: Well, it's like what they you know, what they say

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Speaker 4: about cult leaders, And I'm no expert on cults or

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Speaker 4: cult leaders, but critical thinkers become seduced by cult leaders

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Speaker 4: all the time. Yeah, And what I hear experts say

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Speaker 4: about this is the number one reason that they do

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Speaker 4: is because they don't understand the tactics that cult leaders use. Absolutely, yeah,

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Speaker 4: and the same thing applies here totally.

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Speaker 1: One hundred percent. We talk about that all the time.

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Speaker 1: I mean, maybe you've heard us rant about it. But

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Speaker 1: the people who don't think that they're susceptible are the

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Speaker 1: people who are not doing the research into understanding what

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Speaker 1: the tactics are. And those are the people who are

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Speaker 1: susceptible for sure. And I think that applies to the

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Speaker 1: general population as well when it comes to the government

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Speaker 1: that they have in their country. Yep, all right, do

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Speaker 1: you want to give us the like overview of the

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Speaker 1: six very broad steps of becoming a dictator?

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Speaker 4: Sure? So our series is structured, as I said, like

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Speaker 4: a playbook, And so there are six chapters, and there's

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Speaker 4: six episodes, and collectively it tells the story the eyes

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Speaker 4: and fall of how to become a tyrant from the

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Speaker 4: very beginning to the ultimate goal of achieving really godlike

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Speaker 4: status and immortality. And so each episode chronicles one particular

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Speaker 4: dictator who really best embodied that particular chapter of the playbook.

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Speaker 4: There are no six chapters that all dictators follow we

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Speaker 4: chose to weave them in a chronology that we thought

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Speaker 4: made a lot of sense. So the series begins with

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Speaker 4: the story of Adolf Hitler really before he was Adolf Hitler,

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Speaker 4: and the first episode is called Seize Power, and it's

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Speaker 4: really about you know, if you want to be a dictator,

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Speaker 4: you first need to achieve some power. And so a

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Speaker 4: lot of people know the story of Hitler once he

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Speaker 4: sees power, but what was the story of him achieving

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Speaker 4: it in the first place. The second episode is titled

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Speaker 4: Crush Your Rivals, and in that episode we focus on

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Speaker 4: the story of Saddam Hussein and particularly the early days

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Speaker 4: of power and the things that he did to destroy

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Speaker 4: any opposition within his own party or outside of his party.

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Speaker 4: The third episode focuses on edia Mean, who was the

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Speaker 4: dictator of Uganda in the early seventies.

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Speaker 3: Who I had never heard of.

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Speaker 4: By the way, well Ediaman is one of the most

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Speaker 4: charismatic of the dictators. And when you spend as much

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Speaker 4: time watching the endless archival footage that we had to

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Speaker 4: to make this show, like hundreds and hundreds and hundreds

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Speaker 4: of hours, it's hard not to get a little seduced

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Speaker 4: by some of these guys, really, you know what he is.

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Speaker 4: He's funny. He's funny, and if you didn't know that

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Speaker 4: he was a total brute and sadistic and killed thousands

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Speaker 4: and thousands and thousands, he's actually fun to watch. And look,

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Speaker 4: I hate to say it, it's not the right thing

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Speaker 4: to say, but it's the truth. And some of these

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Speaker 4: guys just had that quality about them. So our third

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Speaker 4: episode is Rain through Terror, and we focus on Idiom

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Speaker 4: and we focus on really how he brutalized his people

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Speaker 4: and how he used that to control them. And it's

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Speaker 4: probably the most savage of all the episodes and the

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Speaker 4: most violent of all the episodes. So there's a juxtaposition

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Speaker 4: an incredibly charismatic, on the surface likable character whose episode

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Speaker 4: is the most vicious of all the six we have.

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Speaker 4: The fourth episode is Control the Truth, and that focuses

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Speaker 4: on Joseph Stalin, And if you look at all the

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Speaker 4: traction that our series has had on social media, people

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Speaker 4: keep tuning into that particular episode.

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Speaker 3: That's the one I was fascinated by that one.

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Speaker 4: It's an episode about misinformation, disinformation, propaganda, and that is

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Speaker 4: really striking a chord with a lot of people, and

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Speaker 4: it definitely strikes a chord with me. The fifth episode

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Speaker 4: is Create a New Society, and that focuses on Mamar Gadaffi.

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Speaker 4: The final episode, which I think is the most chilling,

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Speaker 4: is titled Rule Forever, and it focuses on the Kim

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Speaker 4: dynasty in North and it is really the endgame of tyranny,

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Speaker 4: which is essentially ruling forever, and they have found a

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Speaker 4: way to rule and maintain a cult of personality even

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Speaker 4: after their deaths.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 4: And it's a fascinating, chilling, cautionary tale. And it's the

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Speaker 4: note on which we conclude our series.

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Speaker 1: Oh man, love it. Yeah, the Control of the Truth episode.

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Speaker 1: We'll get into that in a second because I have

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Speaker 1: questions about that. But before we talk about that, I

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Speaker 1: want to talk about some of the mythical origin stories

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Speaker 1: that they all seem to create for themselves, or at

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Speaker 1: least many of them create for themselves. Can you tell

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Speaker 1: us about those, because it feels very culty to me

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Speaker 1: the whole thing.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. Look, we are talking about cults of personality here.

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Speaker 4: Look the origin stories rage and some of them are

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Speaker 4: mythic and spiritual and godlike and definitely culty. And some

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Speaker 4: of them are humble and deliberately so, right right, Mussolini,

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Speaker 4: who is sort of the fall of twentieth century dictators

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Speaker 4: and tyrants. He had a very humble story and promoted

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Speaker 4: a humble story of being the son of a blacksmith

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Speaker 4: in a little small town. On the other hand, you've

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Speaker 4: got Kim Jong il, who, although he was born in

443
00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:19,480
Speaker 4: a very simple way in Russia, they created an entire

444
00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:24,280
Speaker 4: narrative surrounding Mount Pektu, which is a very special area

445
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,200
Speaker 4: in North Korea. I think it's four hundred miles north

446
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,560
Speaker 4: of Pyongyang, and there was an entire sort of myth

447
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:36,240
Speaker 4: surrounding a swallow descending from the heavens announcing his upcoming birth,

448
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:40,440
Speaker 4: the skies parting, double rainbows coming out, the troops all

449
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:47,480
Speaker 4: erupting into songs simultaneously. He was actually in Russia, but yeah,

450
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:49,840
Speaker 4: I mean it is mythic, and I think Hitler actually

451
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,359
Speaker 4: managed to do both, and our series explores how he

452
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:55,960
Speaker 4: both really promoted this idea that he was a man

453
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,359
Speaker 4: of the people, simple roots. He was a soldier in

454
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:01,800
Speaker 4: World War One and he was decorated, and I think

455
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:05,200
Speaker 4: he actually did some heroic things and earned some honors

456
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:08,800
Speaker 4: as a result. But in mind Camp he tells the story,

457
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 4: and we explore this in one of our animated sequences

458
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,479
Speaker 4: in the first episode of being on the battlefield one

459
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:19,960
Speaker 4: day and being inside one of the bunkers and hearing

460
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:24,040
Speaker 4: a voice from the skies that told him to move

461
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:28,200
Speaker 4: in that moment, and he got up and he obeyed

462
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:30,400
Speaker 4: that voice, and he moved, and in that moment an

463
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:34,639
Speaker 4: explosion occurred which killed some of his fellow soldiers, but

464
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:39,119
Speaker 4: he recognized that he was being communicated to by a

465
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:42,439
Speaker 4: higher force. And then later in the war, he and

466
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,399
Speaker 4: his fellow soldiers fell victim to a mustard gas attack

467
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 4: and he was brought to a hospital, which is where

468
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:51,199
Speaker 4: he learned about the war ending. But it was in

469
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,439
Speaker 4: the moments when he was told that the war was

470
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 4: ending that he went blind and he had a case

471
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 4: of what he described or what it was described as

472
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 4: hysterical blindness. And I think the doctors described it as

473
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 4: being something that was a psychotic event, and in his

474
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 4: own mind it was a spiritual event where all of

475
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:14,679
Speaker 4: a sudden, the path was laid out to him that

476
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,840
Speaker 4: he needed to rule and he needed to restore glory

477
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 4: to Germany. Now, I probably have botched a couple of

478
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:23,720
Speaker 4: the details, but the spirit of all that is true.

479
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:27,399
Speaker 4: So some stories are mythic. Some stories are humble, and

480
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 4: they really embrace that idea that they are a man

481
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 4: of the people. They're just like you.

482
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,920
Speaker 1: I'm going to get flak from Mormons for drawing this parallel,

483
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:39,600
Speaker 1: but the Joseph Smith origin story, there are similarities. It

484
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:42,639
Speaker 1: all feels very religious, you know, even the idea of

485
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:44,720
Speaker 1: Hitler hearing a voice telling him to move. I feel

486
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:47,359
Speaker 1: like I grew up with stories like that just from

487
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:48,679
Speaker 1: like regular Mormon people.

488
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 5: You know.

489
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 1: It's interesting, this idea of like having some sort of

490
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,360
Speaker 1: like magical power that they bestow upon themselves, and that

491
00:25:57,560 --> 00:25:58,359
Speaker 1: is a thing that happens with.

492
00:25:58,440 --> 00:25:59,200
Speaker 3: Cult leaders a lot.

493
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:01,680
Speaker 1: You come into it already being told like they woke

494
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,679
Speaker 1: up one day and they had healing power and the

495
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,200
Speaker 1: Lord had bestowed a power upon them.

496
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,640
Speaker 4: You know. Yeah. Look, you know, whether it is part

497
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 4: of their origin story when they start their journey, or

498
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 4: whether it is something that they fabricate as their rule progresses.

499
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 4: The idea that they are touched by God, they are

500
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:24,920
Speaker 4: chosen by God, is a theme that runs through most

501
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,479
Speaker 4: of these leaders, and in some cases, like in the

502
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:32,360
Speaker 4: case of the King dynasty. They essentially are God right,

503
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 4: they have the superpowers, they can dictate the weather right.

504
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,400
Speaker 4: Part of the narrative, and this is often often brought

505
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,200
Speaker 4: up when people are talking about culture, personality and this

506
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:47,640
Speaker 4: sort of religiosity of North Korea. Part of Kim Jong

507
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 4: Yiel's origin myth is that the first time he played golf,

508
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 4: he had eleven holes in one yeah, which, by the.

509
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:57,879
Speaker 5: Way, I didn't know that till By the.

510
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:00,120
Speaker 4: Way, the world record, which I looked up this morning,

511
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,680
Speaker 4: is three, which is which is the craziest thing I've

512
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:05,879
Speaker 4: ever heard in my life. If you never played golf,

513
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,120
Speaker 4: the idea of having more than one in a lifetime

514
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 4: is nuts. Anyway, Kim Jong yill had eleven.

515
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:12,920
Speaker 2: But not going to the bathroom thing as well, that's

516
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:17,200
Speaker 2: a whole slew of different angles of different kinds of magic.

517
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 3: Yeah.

518
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, they do not relate to each other at all.

519
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:24,679
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, wait, I didn't watch the last episode, so

520
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:26,480
Speaker 1: can you He doesn't go to the bathroom is that

521
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 1: one of the.

522
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,440
Speaker 5: I believe he doesn't even have a butthole? Am I correct?

523
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,439
Speaker 4: Wasn't wasn't specific about whether or not he had a

524
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:40,359
Speaker 4: butthole or tho. But he definitely does not go to

525
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 4: the bathroom, which is a which is a terrible waste

526
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,119
Speaker 4: of a butthole. If he actually does have a.

527
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:52,399
Speaker 1: Crying I feel like I feel like there's a cat's

528
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:56,640
Speaker 1: joke in here somewhere, like give us the butthole cut.

529
00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:58,880
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, did they take the buttholes out of cats?

530
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:00,480
Speaker 4: I didn't see cats they did.

531
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 3: Yeah.

532
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 4: Look, I mean love cats. They're God's little creatures, but

533
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:10,200
Speaker 4: always facing the rear my way.

534
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,680
Speaker 5: There, they're a lot of it's a tough.

535
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:14,879
Speaker 3: Butthole cats.

536
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:15,640
Speaker 4: Yeah.

537
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 2: Have you guys seen those little like bling things that

538
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 2: you can hang from your cat's tail so it covers

539
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 2: their butthole.

540
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 5: With the diamond?

541
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:27,880
Speaker 1: Oh my god, we get this extended butthole talk.

542
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 3: She'll keep it in. I'll think it is great for

543
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 3: our listeners.

544
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 5: Okay, here's where I'm landing right now.

545
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 2: I don't know if what I'm about to say is like, well,

546
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 2: that's really smart, or if it's like duh, that's the

547
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 2: whole point.

548
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 5: So I'm just going to throw it out there and

549
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 5: you guys can do with at what you may.

550
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 2: But it feels like dictators and tyrants are controlling things

551
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 2: on the physical level and cult leaders are trying to

552
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 2: do it to you mentally in your head. So all

553
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 2: these tactics are happening like with your ideas and with

554
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 2: your thoughts and with well.

555
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 3: But information control is thought control though.

556
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 5: Right, totally, totally, totally, yes, yes.

557
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 1: When we talk about controlling the truth and propaganda, like,

558
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 1: so much of that is just about controlling what people

559
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 1: think and what the outside world thinks of what's happening

560
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 1: in that particular region as well.

561
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 3: I mean, Jonas, you know you can speak to it.

562
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 4: I think if you look at all the dictators in

563
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 4: our series, they all checked column A and they all

564
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:25,719
Speaker 4: checked column B. They were physical oppressors who brutalized their people,

565
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 4: but they controlled their minds, and I think that is

566
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 4: an even more defining trait than physical violence. Yeah, I

567
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 4: think the mind control is the most alarming thing. And

568
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 4: I think that's that's what I hope is the main

569
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 4: cautionary tale and the main thing people take away from

570
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 4: the series is how vulnerable we all are to that

571
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 4: it feels so unlikely that our government here would ever

572
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 4: become a physical, violent oppressor. And I know that, you know,

573
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 4: there's differing opinions depending on where you fall politically or

574
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 4: where you live in the country about how great that

575
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 4: threat is. I think people underestimate the threats to our

576
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 4: mind that dictators can have.

577
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 1: That brings me to my next thing that I wanted

578
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 1: to talk about, which is that, like when you are

579
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 1: being mind controlled on a mass scale like that, your

580
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 1: actual anxieties, your actual needs, your actual fears are what

581
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 1: are being preyed upon. It's not like you're going to

582
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 1: be aware that you're being manipulated in this way, because

583
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 1: what they are doing is taking real concerns that people have,

584
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 1: real anxieties, real societal problems, and saying I can fix it.

585
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 1: I have the answer, so that when they do begin

586
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 1: their reign of terror, it feels like a good thing,

587
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 1: right exactly.

588
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 4: Absolutely. Look, dictators can be great. If they are providing

589
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 4: the things that you want, they can seem great to you.

590
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 4: That's really the trick. They are here to help you.

591
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 4: They are here to provide the things you want. They

592
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 4: are here to keep you and your family safe. That

593
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 4: is a version of the message that they all come

594
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 4: into power with. You know. One of the big things

595
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 4: that I've been thinking about a lot lately is isolation.

596
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 4: And when you look at North Korea, which is the

597
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 4: final episode of our series. This is a present day

598
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:15,479
Speaker 4: nation in this modern world in which we live, this

599
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 4: hyper connected world, that has managed to completely isolate its

600
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 4: people from the rest of the world. So the people

601
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 4: who live in North Korea, and look, it's hard to

602
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 4: know for sure because we don't have access, we can't

603
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 4: talk to them, but it is undeniable that a huge

604
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 4: percentage of the population North Korea believe that their government

605
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 4: is protecting them from hostile forces around the world, specifically

606
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 4: the United States and the Western world. They believe that

607
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 4: they are being protected. They believe that their deer leaders

608
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 4: are looking out for them, and that everyone else is

609
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 4: out to get them. And isolation, I think is something

610
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 4: that gives me so much concern when I look around

611
00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 4: this country and I look around our modern world. We're

612
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 4: hyper connected, we know what's going on everywhere else, but

613
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 4: through misinformation and disinformation, they still manage to isolate us

614
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 4: and separate us from one another and create mistrust among

615
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 4: one another.

616
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 3: And social media algorithms and.

617
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:19,080
Speaker 4: Social media algorithms, and as such, we're starting to live

618
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 4: in our own little North Koreas and I find that

619
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 4: so disturbing and terrifying, and it's one thing I really

620
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 4: push back against in part, I guess with work, but

621
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 4: also just in the people I surround myself with. I

622
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 4: find it so troubling that we ridicule and isolate and

623
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 4: to some extent cancel the people who don't share our beliefs.

624
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 4: It's very disturbing to me, and I think that actually

625
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 4: creates a very fertile environment for tyrants to emerge. And

626
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 4: that's maybe an overly simple way of putting it, but

627
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 4: it's a theme that's been on my mind a lot,

628
00:32:57,600 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 4: and it was one of the big takeaways for me

629
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 4: in making this show.

630
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's an excellent point, and I

631
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 1: think that the parallel between everything you just said and

632
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 1: cults is almost so obvious it needn't even be said.

633
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 1: Like isolation is one of the most important things. Information

634
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 1: control is one of the most important things. People and

635
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 1: cults obviously believe their cult leader is doing something positive

636
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 1: and constructive for their lives, or they wouldn't have joined

637
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 1: in the first place. You know, there's a misconception about

638
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 1: both cult leaders and tyrants. I think that you would

639
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 1: somehow know that what they're doing is bad, and I

640
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 1: think a lot of the time, that's not true. I

641
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 1: was also going to say, I remember reading in the

642
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 1: Origins of Totalitarianism that apparently Hitler's regime they dissolved all

643
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 1: social groups, even the most tiny, little unimportant ones like

644
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 1: chess clubs. All social groups were dissolved because that would

645
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 1: mean that people would be talking to each other and

646
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:58,959
Speaker 1: trusting each other and having social connection outside of the

647
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 1: one group that they needed to have their allegiance too,

648
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 1: or four or whatever.

649
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 4: I hadn't heard that, but there's no surprise there. That

650
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:08,919
Speaker 4: is really kind of the ultimate goal is that all

651
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:12,919
Speaker 4: facets of life, of public life are in service of

652
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 4: the state or in service of the leader. And so

653
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,760
Speaker 4: maybe he had his own Adolf Hitler sanctioned chess clubs,

654
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:23,319
Speaker 4: but that makes a lot of sense. You see that

655
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:27,320
Speaker 4: over and over again. They need to control or destroy

656
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:30,439
Speaker 4: all aspects of the fabric of the society that they're

657
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:31,760
Speaker 4: ruling over right.

658
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 3: Well jonestown as well.

659
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 1: I mean, it was one of the rules that you

660
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:38,359
Speaker 1: had to be spying on your neighbor to see if

661
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:40,840
Speaker 1: they were committing any sins that you could tell on

662
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 1: them and turn against them.

663
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 3: So nobody trusts each other. All the social.

664
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 1: Connection is completely dissolved and you have nothing to hold

665
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 1: on to except for the leadership.

666
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,920
Speaker 2: I mean, that's like the basics of an abusive relationship too.

667
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 2: You know, it's so interesting how that's kind of the

668
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 2: main building block.

669
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's very scary.

670
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 4: They all do that. They all have a system of informants,

671
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 4: either official or unofficial. Stalin was notorious for doing that.

672
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 4: So in episode four of the series, we explored this

673
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 4: story through one of our little animated sequences. There was

674
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 4: a young boy in the countryside during Stalin's rule who

675
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:22,799
Speaker 4: noticed that his father had been stealing crops, crops that

676
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:25,839
Speaker 4: had otherwise been due to the state. And he did

677
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:30,319
Speaker 4: what every young, dutiful, noble, young Russian would do, which

678
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 4: is notify the authorities. And he notified the authorities, and

679
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:38,799
Speaker 4: he ended up getting killed by his family members for

680
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 4: having reported them. And he ended up becoming a martyr

681
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:47,400
Speaker 4: in Russia, and they created statues for him and operas

682
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 4: for him. They named streets after him. The story, we've

683
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:55,440
Speaker 4: since learned is a fabrication. It never actually happened. It

684
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:58,839
Speaker 4: was something made up by Stalin's government. But you can

685
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:04,799
Speaker 4: see the service that it serves your primary loyalty is

686
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,240
Speaker 4: to the state, is to the dear leader, is to Stalin.

687
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:14,200
Speaker 4: Everything else's secondary right. And that is what true absolute

688
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:17,759
Speaker 4: rule is, And that's really what they're seeking, whether they

689
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,440
Speaker 4: know it or not, at the very beginning of their journey.

690
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 4: That's where ultimate power takes you.

691
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 5: There was a.

692
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 1: Quote in that episode that somebody said that was if

693
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 1: it preserves the interest of the revolution, it is true, which.

694
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 3: I found to be striking.

695
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:37,799
Speaker 1: Can you talk to us about information control and the

696
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:41,439
Speaker 1: way that some of these people, or all of these people,

697
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:44,440
Speaker 1: I should say, twist and deny reality totally.

698
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:47,400
Speaker 4: Well, let me think of some examples of that quickly.

699
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:52,320
Speaker 1: Like one that I was fascinated by was Stalin doing

700
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 1: an early photoshop basically of the photo of him with Lenin,

701
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:02,840
Speaker 1: where he made himself be closer to Lenin, bigger than Lenin,

702
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 1: and edited the flaws from his skin so that he

703
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 1: looks more like stately and handsome than he would have

704
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 1: looked otherwise, which is unbelievably fascinating to me.

705
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:17,319
Speaker 4: Stalin was not a hunky guy, I'll tell you that much.

706
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 4: You wouldn't know it. You wouldn't know it through some

707
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 4: of his propaganda images. Yeah, he did that a few times,

708
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 4: you know, and they point to that as being an

709
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 4: early photoshop, and you can see throughout his rule there

710
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 4: are other examples where he would have people painted out

711
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:33,759
Speaker 4: from his photos. Wow, it happened a lot in that

712
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 4: particular example. And yeah, we explored that in the series.

713
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 4: He had a sort of icy relationship with Lenin near

714
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:42,799
Speaker 4: the end of Lenin's life before Stalin took over. But

715
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:47,320
Speaker 4: when Lenin died, he really changed and controlled the narrative

716
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,319
Speaker 4: that he and Lenin really were close as could be

717
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 4: and that he was fighting the same fight that Lenin was,

718
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 4: and that he had Lenin's full endorsement. And one of

719
00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:00,120
Speaker 4: the things he did is he doctored this photo and

720
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:02,919
Speaker 4: you can see it online. There's two photos, one which

721
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:05,399
Speaker 4: is the original where they're just sitting side by side,

722
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:09,239
Speaker 4: and the second one where he does exactly what you described.

723
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 4: He brings himself closer, he lengthens his arm a little bit.

724
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:16,440
Speaker 4: He had a disfigured arm from his childhood. He removes

725
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:19,760
Speaker 4: the pot barks from his face, and he brings himself

726
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:21,920
Speaker 4: a little closer to camera so that he looks more

727
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 4: prominent in the frame. And no one knows the better.

728
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 1: It really speaks to how smart he was about the

729
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 1: very subtle ways to like signal power basically because being bigger,

730
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:39,759
Speaker 1: being closer, like these things, there's such subtle things. But

731
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 1: I looked at the different pictures and I was like, yeah,

732
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 1: I would see that and like get a more powerful

733
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:46,360
Speaker 1: vibe from that second photo.

734
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 4: Oh. Of course, no one did that better than the

735
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:52,880
Speaker 4: Nazis and Adolf Hitler. He was a branding guy. He

736
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,399
Speaker 4: understood how to brand. And you look at the uniforms

737
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:58,600
Speaker 4: and again, watching this over and over again, if you

738
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 4: watched Lenny Reefenstahl Triumph of the Will, or really any

739
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:06,919
Speaker 4: archival footage of the Nuremberg rallies and the uniforms, there's

740
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:10,880
Speaker 4: something undeniably. We look at it now and it looks

741
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 4: like a nightmare, but you can also look at it

742
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 4: and see the strange beauty and the power of the forums.

743
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 4: Hugo Boss famously designed some of the SS uniforms, by

744
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:26,880
Speaker 4: the way, major bummer. Hard for me to get behind it.

745
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:29,600
Speaker 5: Coco Chanel too, Yeah, well.

746
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 4: Look there's a lot of that. There's a lot of

747
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:35,320
Speaker 4: brands that have checkered passed during the Second World War. Yeah,

748
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:38,560
Speaker 4: but it's amazing. You know, fashion plays a huge role

749
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 4: in how you present yourselves, how you brand yourselves, how

750
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,360
Speaker 4: you make yourself look more powerful, more frightening.

751
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 1: I mean I think of fashion as something that women

752
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:51,840
Speaker 1: are interested in, which of course is not true, but

753
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:54,839
Speaker 1: like just historically you think that that's how society thinks

754
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:57,279
Speaker 1: fashion is something that women are interested in. So it's

755
00:39:57,320 --> 00:39:59,319
Speaker 1: always interesting to me, Like we talked about this with

756
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 1: the former New not to you people we've had on

757
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 1: and stuff like the uniform is such a big part

758
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 1: of like creating this brand and creating this entity.

759
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 3: That appears powerful. It's not just for the ladies, it

760
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:12,680
Speaker 3: turns out.

761
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:17,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, look, it's interesting because it's a little bit

762
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:19,919
Speaker 4: different than fashion. I think what we're talking about here.

763
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:24,440
Speaker 4: When I think fashion, I think individual expression, right, I

764
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:27,840
Speaker 4: think of individuality and trends, And it's actually not that

765
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 4: at all. It is projecting a brand. It is in

766
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:38,839
Speaker 4: some ways stripping the individuality, right, and it is deceiving

767
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 4: people into thinking that conformity, which is what it is,

768
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:44,240
Speaker 4: is unity.

769
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:47,279
Speaker 1: Oh yes, when that line was said in the show,

770
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 1: it like gave me chills.

771
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:50,799
Speaker 3: What an idea? Yeah, can you say more about that?

772
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 4: Look, I don't know. I mean it's it is a

773
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 4: funny reality. You look around the world and you look

774
00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 4: around our neighborhood and you see people who are who

775
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 4: are rest in a real sort of counterculture way, really

776
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:06,719
Speaker 4: expressing their individuality. The only problem is they're walking with

777
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:08,360
Speaker 4: three or four or five other people who are a

778
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 4: dressed the exact same way. Right, it's a funny contradiction.

779
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:16,400
Speaker 1: No one dresses like v jonas well, with the exception

780
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:19,400
Speaker 1: of you, thank you, wely you are a different story.

781
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 4: And of course I'm exaggerating, but yeah, I think it

782
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 4: is about stripping the individuality. And it's that same point

783
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:29,960
Speaker 4: about destroying the chess clubs, controlling fashion. Edia Mean did that.

784
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 4: Edia Mean did that in a really savage way, and

785
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 4: he banned mini skirts above a certain length for women,

786
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 4: and he actually empowered his soldiers to walk around with

787
00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 4: sharpened machetes and if women didn't conform to the right length,

788
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 4: they would slash their leg in exactly that point where Wow,

789
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:52,319
Speaker 4: the skirts were mandated to end.

790
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 3: Wow, takes modesty to a whole other level.

791
00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:56,560
Speaker 4: Wow, Yes it does.

792
00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:58,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great point, and that's something that I

793
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:01,120
Speaker 1: struggle with just thinking about in general.

794
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:01,440
Speaker 4: Is like.

795
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:06,160
Speaker 1: Community is important, unity is important. Where do we draw

796
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:08,839
Speaker 1: the line between being a part of a community and

797
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:12,680
Speaker 1: being unified with our other human beings and actually just

798
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:16,279
Speaker 1: conforming to the norm and becoming sheep. It's always hard

799
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:17,960
Speaker 1: for me to sort of discern where that line is,

800
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:18,440
Speaker 1: you know.

801
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 4: Don't ask me. I have no idea, and I wrestle

802
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:24,279
Speaker 4: with this every day. I think about this every day,

803
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:27,920
Speaker 4: and I think the best we can do is to

804
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:33,920
Speaker 4: continue to question that, continue to wonder, continue to maintain

805
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 4: a critical mind about these things. I think that's the

806
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:38,880
Speaker 4: best we can do. And I think that is a

807
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:42,960
Speaker 4: very powerful thing, if you can maintain some objectivity and

808
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 4: a critical mind and don't accept the things that we're

809
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:48,920
Speaker 4: all told at pure face value. There are things that

810
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 4: are right, and there are things that are wrong, and

811
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:52,840
Speaker 4: then there's a whole lot of things in the middle

812
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:54,960
Speaker 4: that are a little bit of column A, a little

813
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 4: bit of column B.

814
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:56,319
Speaker 3: Right.

815
00:42:56,760 --> 00:43:00,160
Speaker 2: So in your life, have you started incorporating more are

816
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:03,319
Speaker 2: just like different groups of friends and different sources of

817
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:07,200
Speaker 2: getting your news and different like did you broaden the

818
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 2: information you were receiving a lot because of this or

819
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:10,880
Speaker 2: what does that look like?

820
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:16,040
Speaker 4: I don't think I'm any model of extreme critical thought

821
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 4: or you know, I'm not going to be the template

822
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:23,319
Speaker 4: that other people should follow. But I will say it's

823
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 4: something that I'm attuned to. It's something that I do

824
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:28,759
Speaker 4: think about a lot. It's something I analyze. I don't

825
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:32,360
Speaker 4: like taking things at face value. I like counter thought.

826
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:36,239
Speaker 4: I like debate. Maybe it's because I'm Canadian. You know,

827
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:38,879
Speaker 4: when I first came to the US fifteen years ago,

828
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:41,319
Speaker 4: I was so excited to talk to some people at

829
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 4: the complete opposite end of the political spectrum and hear

830
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 4: their position. I just wanted to I wanted to understand

831
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 4: a little bit more. But there is this weird guard

832
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 4: that's up in our culture, broadly our American culture here,

833
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:58,319
Speaker 4: this weird hostility. It is so hard to have real

834
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 4: political discussion. It's hard to have real debate. I find

835
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:07,840
Speaker 4: that people are they're looking to calcify their own views,

836
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 4: They're or looking to impose their views on others, or

837
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:14,359
Speaker 4: looking to discredit other people's views instead of looking for

838
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:17,399
Speaker 4: the merit in what other people have to say. And

839
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:21,719
Speaker 4: I find that a very dispiriting, disappointing thing. And I

840
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:25,040
Speaker 4: see it. I see it all over the political spectrum

841
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:28,120
Speaker 4: and I know I'm not saying anything revolutionary here, but

842
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:30,360
Speaker 4: that was one of the things I think that was

843
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:33,320
Speaker 4: in my mind as we were making this show, trying

844
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 4: to have a show that could cut through and not

845
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:40,880
Speaker 4: speak to one particular side or alienate one particular side.

846
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 4: We felt that the temptation in the series to put

847
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:50,080
Speaker 4: in certain political leaders, certain very famous political leaders who

848
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:53,879
Speaker 4: many people feel are a tyrant deserving of the star

849
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:56,279
Speaker 4: treatment in our series. And in fact, if you look

850
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:58,440
Speaker 4: at a lot of the criticism that we get online,

851
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:01,239
Speaker 4: it's because people say, well, why didn't you put this

852
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:03,880
Speaker 4: person in here? Why didn't you put that person in here?

853
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 4: Why didn't you put our dictator in there? And we

854
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:11,160
Speaker 4: didn't want to do a show that preached to one side,

855
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:13,919
Speaker 4: so it was easier for us to choose the real

856
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:17,320
Speaker 4: undeniable tyrants, the ones who are, oh, there's just no

857
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:22,879
Speaker 4: denying that this person was a brutal, absolute ruler who

858
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 4: killed countless Although, as it turns out, many of the

859
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 4: leaders in our series, if you speak to Iraqis, or

860
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 4: if you speak to Ugandans, or if you speak to Libyans,

861
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:35,399
Speaker 4: not all of them are going to speak in such

862
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:41,040
Speaker 4: negative terms about Saddam Ediamine or Gaddafi. It's a much

863
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 4: more complicated picture for them. And so anyway, we didn't

864
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:46,839
Speaker 4: want to do something that was partisan it. We wanted

865
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:49,920
Speaker 4: to do something that would cut through and offer something

866
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:52,719
Speaker 4: for people at all corners of the political spectrum to

867
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:54,320
Speaker 4: think about and to grab onto.

868
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:57,440
Speaker 2: Right, do you think that most people just digested it

869
00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 2: by being like, yeah, that's true. Those people are being

870
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:03,280
Speaker 2: controlled by cults on both sides. Do you think anybody

871
00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 2: like saw a middle ground more than when they started?

872
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:07,040
Speaker 4: I hope so.

873
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:08,480
Speaker 5: Yeah.

874
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:10,400
Speaker 4: Look, the thing that I hope people see in the

875
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 4: series is that whether you are on the left wing

876
00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:15,880
Speaker 4: or the right wing, that you look at the series

877
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:20,560
Speaker 4: and you recognize those traits that dictators have in your

878
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:23,920
Speaker 4: own leader. Right, even if your leader is not a dictator,

879
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:26,480
Speaker 4: even if they are all by by all accounts, a

880
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:32,240
Speaker 4: good leader of your country, there is something toxic about

881
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:36,920
Speaker 4: power and the corrupting nature of it, and I believe

882
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:41,359
Speaker 4: everyone falls victim, and all political leaders do. Occasionally. They

883
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:44,080
Speaker 4: may not open that playbook very often, but every once

884
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:46,120
Speaker 4: in a while I feel they skim it. Maybe have

885
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 4: a look at a headline, because you should be able

886
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:52,719
Speaker 4: to recognize traits in any political leader. It's just a

887
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 4: question of how many, right.

888
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:56,480
Speaker 3: Because anyone who's seeking power.

889
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 1: I'm sure not all politicians are bad, that that would

890
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 1: be an overstatement, but like everybody is complicated, and I

891
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:05,600
Speaker 1: feel like to have the instinct to seek power in

892
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:08,120
Speaker 1: the first place, there's a little question I would have

893
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:09,040
Speaker 1: about you.

894
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:12,920
Speaker 4: Oh for sure, you know, oh for sure, Oh you

895
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:15,400
Speaker 4: got listen, especially these days, you need to be crazy

896
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:15,759
Speaker 4: to do it.

897
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:16,960
Speaker 1: Yeah.

898
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:18,960
Speaker 4: Look, I think it's fair to say that there's a

899
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:23,359
Speaker 4: high degree of narcissism in most people who seek office, right,

900
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:26,719
Speaker 4: And look, that can be very bad, and it cannot

901
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:27,919
Speaker 4: necessarily be that bad.

902
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:29,480
Speaker 3: It can be harmless for sure.

903
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:30,400
Speaker 4: Yeah.

904
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 5: I love the show VIEP. Do you guys watch it?

905
00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:33,279
Speaker 2: Ever?

906
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:34,000
Speaker 3: I love VIEP.

907
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:34,600
Speaker 5: It's so good.

908
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:35,959
Speaker 4: Of course Pete's.

909
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:37,799
Speaker 3: Part of that show, our friend Pete over there.

910
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:38,400
Speaker 5: Yeah.

911
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:42,560
Speaker 1: So fake news, because I feel like I just want

912
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:44,680
Speaker 1: to touch on the information control us a little bit

913
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:47,400
Speaker 1: more so, I think for the majority of our audience,

914
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:50,560
Speaker 1: when we hear the term fake news, there is the

915
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:53,400
Speaker 1: one politician that we think of who says that a lot,

916
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:56,920
Speaker 1: and you know, sort of dismissing any news that's critical

917
00:47:57,120 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 1: of him. I don't know why we're not naming Trump.

918
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:03,759
Speaker 1: Clearly I'm talking about Donald Trump. But I think that

919
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:07,920
Speaker 1: the trap that we fall into often as progressive people.

920
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:10,880
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know your political leanings, Jonas, but

921
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:14,319
Speaker 1: is to assume that we are not also susceptible to

922
00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:16,680
Speaker 1: slightly stretched truth.

923
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:19,040
Speaker 3: On our own side. I mean, do you have any.

924
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:22,560
Speaker 1: More juicy examples for us of like striking moment in

925
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:26,080
Speaker 1: history where the truth was denied or twisted in some

926
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:29,920
Speaker 1: way that kind of made you think about today.

927
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 4: There's just so many examples. There's so many examples that

928
00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 4: are big and small. You know. Look, the series has

929
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:42,319
Speaker 4: many of them. Why Germany lost World War One, Why

930
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:45,840
Speaker 4: the Korean War started, Why North Korea needs to protect

931
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:50,040
Speaker 4: itself against a hostile invader from the West. I'm sure

932
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:51,600
Speaker 4: if I thought about it, I could think of, you know,

933
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 4: one really iconic one. I think it's everywhere, and I

934
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:58,160
Speaker 4: think the theme of misinformation, you know, it gets back

935
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 4: to this idea of isolation, and I just find it's

936
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:06,040
Speaker 4: so disturbing the growing trend towards people existing in their

937
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:10,000
Speaker 4: own little North Koreas, And the reality is I'm no

938
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:12,759
Speaker 4: different in one sense. The information that gets fed to me.

939
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:15,200
Speaker 4: I try to battle the algorithm. I try to mix

940
00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 4: it up a little bit. But you look at the

941
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:20,120
Speaker 4: people on my feed, there's not a lot of people

942
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 4: promoting contrary views to mind right, And so we live

943
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:28,399
Speaker 4: in bubbles. And look, it happens on both sides. Both

944
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:31,160
Speaker 4: sides try to discredit, you know, news sources on the

945
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:36,080
Speaker 4: other and look, Fox News is a complicated operation, but

946
00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:40,120
Speaker 4: Fox News also does have real journalistic news. And for

947
00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 4: years it has been, you know, widely denounced and widely

948
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:47,359
Speaker 4: discredited as an entire organization. And there's merit to that,

949
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:49,960
Speaker 4: but what it also does is push people away. It

950
00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:52,920
Speaker 4: creates an instant stigma. Even if what you're watching is

951
00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:56,400
Speaker 4: the news hour or breaking news on Fox News, it

952
00:49:56,440 --> 00:50:00,239
Speaker 4: immediately creates a stigma. And obviously it is done and

953
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:04,560
Speaker 4: on the other side to CNN and MSNBC and others

954
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:07,919
Speaker 4: as well, And it's all pushing us into bubbles where

955
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:10,960
Speaker 4: it creates real distrust of the other side. And I

956
00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:13,719
Speaker 4: just think that is the most powerful thing for creating

957
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:16,879
Speaker 4: fertile soil for tyrants to rise to power is when

958
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:20,280
Speaker 4: you have those kind of siloed nations that have such

959
00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:24,480
Speaker 4: inherent distrust for the other side. I hate to see it.

960
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:24,799
Speaker 2: MM.

961
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:33,040
Speaker 1: The list of Stalin's off limits topics was pretty astounding.

962
00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know, I can't remember them off the

963
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:39,000
Speaker 4: top of my head, but it's endless. Like they had

964
00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:42,280
Speaker 4: entire manuals about things that people are not allowed to discuss.

965
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:45,520
Speaker 4: One of them, I think was the ongoing renovations at

966
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:48,440
Speaker 4: the Ballet Center. You can't talk about that, of course not.

967
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:53,040
Speaker 1: No, there was like anything about prescription medication, anything about

968
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:56,520
Speaker 1: the state of people's hunger, anything like. It was basically

969
00:50:56,520 --> 00:50:57,400
Speaker 1: anything about anything.

970
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:00,640
Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, those are some of the moments that I

971
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:02,480
Speaker 4: like the most in the show, honestly, is we have

972
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:05,440
Speaker 4: these little kind of graphic explainers that are real sort

973
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:08,279
Speaker 4: of cheat sheets on how you too can accomplish this,

974
00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:11,600
Speaker 4: and we have these little animated sequences and they list off,

975
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:14,720
Speaker 4: you know, here's a great list of ideas for things

976
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:17,800
Speaker 4: that you should forbid your population from talking about. And

977
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:20,600
Speaker 4: a lot of people have responded to those.

978
00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:24,799
Speaker 2: So you think, like, probably the most powerful thing to

979
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:30,520
Speaker 2: combat this pattern that keeps happening throughout history is talking

980
00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:33,360
Speaker 2: to each other, is communicating with each other, is keeping

981
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:34,120
Speaker 2: an open mind.

982
00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:35,520
Speaker 5: Much as we can.

983
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:38,520
Speaker 4: Well look again, I am not the authority, and I'm

984
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:40,919
Speaker 4: not an expert. I'm just someone who's spent a year

985
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:44,239
Speaker 4: making this show about dictators with some strong opinions on

986
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:47,080
Speaker 4: my own, and that is probably an overly simplistic way

987
00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:50,080
Speaker 4: of doing it. I think, unfortunately, one of the most

988
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:54,799
Speaker 4: effective ways to get rid of a tyrannical regime is

989
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:58,359
Speaker 4: to fucking destroy them, like they did during World War Two. Unfortunately.

990
00:51:58,719 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, but I do.

991
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:04,440
Speaker 4: You think again that the way that our culture is

992
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:09,640
Speaker 4: allowing itself to be divided. I feel echoes of the

993
00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:12,600
Speaker 4: stories of all these tyrants and their nations and those

994
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:16,040
Speaker 4: periods of rule. I see echoes in the country that

995
00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:19,080
Speaker 4: we live in right now. And I'm not saying we're

996
00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:22,320
Speaker 4: under a dictatorship. I'm not saying we were under a dictatorship.

997
00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:25,279
Speaker 4: America has had a pretty good track record, but I

998
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:28,279
Speaker 4: think there is some rot that is taking place, and

999
00:52:28,680 --> 00:52:31,759
Speaker 4: it is alarming. And I just hope that people read

1000
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:34,880
Speaker 4: up on history and they approach all this stuff with

1001
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:37,239
Speaker 4: a real critical mind, and they look at their own

1002
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:40,440
Speaker 4: parties with a real critical mind and don't accept it

1003
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:43,680
Speaker 4: when any one person says I alone can fix it,

1004
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:46,080
Speaker 4: I'm the one, right, right.

1005
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:49,360
Speaker 1: And that friends is the central thesis of this show.

1006
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:57,000
Speaker 1: And then do not trust me exactly. I mean, is

1007
00:52:57,000 --> 00:53:00,880
Speaker 1: there anything else that you think is interesting to mention

1008
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:03,680
Speaker 1: or you know, is there anything that you learned in

1009
00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:06,680
Speaker 1: the process additional that you'd like to talk about.

1010
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:09,680
Speaker 4: I don't know. Look, I think one of the big

1011
00:53:09,719 --> 00:53:13,719
Speaker 4: takeaways for me again is that a dictator can be

1012
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:16,279
Speaker 4: great if they are providing you the things that you

1013
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:18,880
Speaker 4: want and you just think about it. Think about all

1014
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:21,360
Speaker 4: the things that matter to you. Let's say someone feels

1015
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:24,880
Speaker 4: strongly about women's right to choose, and they feel strongly

1016
00:53:24,960 --> 00:53:29,120
Speaker 4: about homelessness should be eradicated, they feel strongly about social

1017
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:32,200
Speaker 4: order and safety. Go through the list of all the

1018
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:34,520
Speaker 4: things you like, and imagine someone comes along and says,

1019
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:37,960
Speaker 4: it's done. I got it. Starting next week, we're getting

1020
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:40,440
Speaker 4: rid of all that stuff. We're protecting all those things

1021
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:44,320
Speaker 4: that you care about. Boy, that's tempting. God, it's tempting.

1022
00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:47,799
Speaker 4: And so that's how they do it right. That's how

1023
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:52,080
Speaker 4: they do it right. They present themselves as problem solvers

1024
00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:57,040
Speaker 4: and dictators get stuff done. And oh my god, when

1025
00:53:57,040 --> 00:54:00,400
Speaker 4: you look at the American system, which is designed to

1026
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:04,279
Speaker 4: not get big things done, it's deliberately designed for that,

1027
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:06,760
Speaker 4: which I think it's a great thing on one hand,

1028
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:09,520
Speaker 4: but you look at the system here, and oh my god,

1029
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:12,200
Speaker 4: it would be so great if someone who just believed

1030
00:54:12,239 --> 00:54:14,880
Speaker 4: in all the things that you believed came along and

1031
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:17,840
Speaker 4: took care of it and could bully all the assholes

1032
00:54:17,840 --> 00:54:20,080
Speaker 4: out of the way, all those horrible people on the

1033
00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:23,399
Speaker 4: other side of the aisle who are just obstructionists. We're

1034
00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:24,719
Speaker 4: just going to bully them out of the way. We're

1035
00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:27,759
Speaker 4: going to get our stuff done. Dictators can be so seductive,

1036
00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:30,359
Speaker 4: and it is so tempting to have someone who gets

1037
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:33,800
Speaker 4: stuff done. It's so easy to think of a dictator

1038
00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:39,040
Speaker 4: as someone who brutalizes, who kills entire civilian populations. But

1039
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:41,640
Speaker 4: that's not the platform on which they rise to power,

1040
00:54:42,200 --> 00:54:46,279
Speaker 4: and so it's awfully tempting, and so we have to

1041
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:50,600
Speaker 4: resist that temptation. You know. It's easy to say we

1042
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:52,920
Speaker 4: hate them, and it's easy to say, watch out for

1043
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:56,200
Speaker 4: this person. They are displaying dictator traits when they don't

1044
00:54:56,280 --> 00:55:00,399
Speaker 4: conform to our own political views or our own ethical princesles.

1045
00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:03,080
Speaker 4: But it's a lot harder, and I think all of

1046
00:55:03,160 --> 00:55:06,360
Speaker 4: us would have a much harder time sounding the alarm

1047
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:09,360
Speaker 4: if it was someone who really did espouse our beliefs,

1048
00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:12,960
Speaker 4: and so I think it requires that sort of discipline

1049
00:55:13,239 --> 00:55:17,319
Speaker 4: and critical thought and objectivity to combat these kinds of

1050
00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:18,680
Speaker 4: leaders from coming to power.

1051
00:55:19,120 --> 00:55:23,240
Speaker 3: Right Well said, oh yeah, that was amazing.

1052
00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:24,680
Speaker 5: Thank you, thank you.

1053
00:55:25,040 --> 00:55:27,279
Speaker 4: I really appreciate you, guys letting me come on and

1054
00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:29,120
Speaker 4: talk about the show. Is a big, big part of

1055
00:55:29,120 --> 00:55:31,439
Speaker 4: my life for the past couple of years, and it's

1056
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:34,320
Speaker 4: been great to see it out there. And the similarities

1057
00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:38,200
Speaker 4: between tyrants and cult leaders, it's pretty striking. It is

1058
00:55:38,239 --> 00:55:39,640
Speaker 4: really a version of the same thing.

1059
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:40,960
Speaker 3: Right yeah.

1060
00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:44,840
Speaker 4: Anyone who comes along and says, trust me and trust

1061
00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:49,000
Speaker 4: me alone, be very careful, very very careful.

1062
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:53,759
Speaker 1: How to become a tyrant on Netflix? Please check it

1063
00:55:53,760 --> 00:55:57,560
Speaker 1: out everyone. It's great, got Tyry and Lanister's soothing voice

1064
00:55:57,640 --> 00:55:58,479
Speaker 1: to guide you through.

1065
00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:03,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you so much, Jonas.

1066
00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:06,399
Speaker 4: Thank you, guys, really appreciate you having me and go

1067
00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:08,640
Speaker 4: watch the show. I hope people get something out of it.

1068
00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:13,640
Speaker 1: They will, Oh, okay, well that's Jonas.

1069
00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:14,120
Speaker 3: Everybody.

1070
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:16,319
Speaker 1: I don't know what to ask you because we're not

1071
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:17,760
Speaker 1: talking about a specific group.

1072
00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:19,280
Speaker 3: What should we discuss.

1073
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:22,319
Speaker 2: Well, before you got on the call, Jonas and I

1074
00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:24,160
Speaker 2: were kind of talking, this might be interesting, you let

1075
00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:26,520
Speaker 2: me know, But I was just talking about how it's

1076
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:32,840
Speaker 2: very easy for me to say, fuck these people you're crazy,

1077
00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:33,680
Speaker 2: which they.

1078
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:35,440
Speaker 5: Are, and fuck them for real.

1079
00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:38,360
Speaker 2: But I was just saying, you know, I've never really

1080
00:56:38,719 --> 00:56:42,320
Speaker 2: had any power, so I don't know how I would

1081
00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:46,720
Speaker 2: act with it. And his response was, yeah, in seventh

1082
00:56:46,719 --> 00:56:51,080
Speaker 2: grade I won student body council. I had no good ideas,

1083
00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:55,400
Speaker 2: no like really even willed to be there, but I

1084
00:56:55,480 --> 00:56:57,520
Speaker 2: didn't want to give it up at the end of

1085
00:56:57,560 --> 00:57:01,400
Speaker 2: my term. He was like, I'm thinking, how can.

1086
00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:03,080
Speaker 5: I make this lasts longer?

1087
00:57:03,719 --> 00:57:07,440
Speaker 2: And and then's just like shit, It is an interesting

1088
00:57:07,440 --> 00:57:10,760
Speaker 2: exercise to look with them to where you are struggling

1089
00:57:10,800 --> 00:57:14,239
Speaker 2: with power and where you might become a little dictator

1090
00:57:14,239 --> 00:57:15,480
Speaker 2: with that totally.

1091
00:57:15,520 --> 00:57:21,400
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it's an age old idea that

1092
00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:25,400
Speaker 1: power corrupts. I wonder if there's any actual social research

1093
00:57:25,440 --> 00:57:28,440
Speaker 1: on that, because I would love to know, like, what

1094
00:57:28,640 --> 00:57:31,960
Speaker 1: specifically is the mechanism, at what point does it happen?

1095
00:57:32,080 --> 00:57:35,040
Speaker 1: How do you prevent yourself from becoming addicted to that power?

1096
00:57:35,640 --> 00:57:39,280
Speaker 1: You know, I truly think none of us are exempt

1097
00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:41,840
Speaker 1: from from being a kind of little tyrants or a

1098
00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:46,000
Speaker 1: little little power hungry. One theory I would pause it

1099
00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:48,200
Speaker 1: is that like, oh, if you have you know, people

1100
00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:49,960
Speaker 1: in your life who've been in your life for a

1101
00:57:49,960 --> 00:57:53,960
Speaker 1: long time and like aren't afraid to knock you down

1102
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:56,120
Speaker 1: a peg or you need to be knocked down a peg,

1103
00:57:56,720 --> 00:57:59,600
Speaker 1: or you know, or just like grounding, like grounding forces

1104
00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:04,320
Speaker 1: in your life. Like maybe maybe that contributes, but I truly.

1105
00:58:04,080 --> 00:58:04,680
Speaker 3: Don't fucking know.

1106
00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:07,439
Speaker 1: We know that money makes people less empathetic. I'm sure

1107
00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:12,520
Speaker 1: that power is exactly the same. So you know, who knows,

1108
00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:17,160
Speaker 1: who knows what we would do? I mean probably not jetocide.

1109
00:58:16,840 --> 00:58:18,919
Speaker 5: But not that, not that for sure.

1110
00:58:19,360 --> 00:58:21,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you know, definitely not that.

1111
00:58:22,280 --> 00:58:23,920
Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting.

1112
00:58:24,040 --> 00:58:26,440
Speaker 1: But I see it happen among people, I know, you know,

1113
00:58:26,560 --> 00:58:29,200
Speaker 1: like gain some power in the entertainment industry and then

1114
00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:31,400
Speaker 1: they have it and then they kind of want.

1115
00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:32,080
Speaker 3: To hoard it a little bit.

1116
00:58:32,120 --> 00:58:35,800
Speaker 1: There's like it does really seem to change something in

1117
00:58:35,880 --> 00:58:39,720
Speaker 1: your brain and makes you just like become.

1118
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:40,280
Speaker 3: An addict man.

1119
00:58:40,600 --> 00:58:44,040
Speaker 1: Absolutely powerholics Anonymous, Where are you at?

1120
00:58:44,120 --> 00:58:44,320
Speaker 3: You know?

1121
00:58:47,520 --> 00:58:53,160
Speaker 1: I mean, thank god I don't have any yet yet,

1122
00:58:55,440 --> 00:58:57,080
Speaker 1: but don't worry. When you do, I will be sure

1123
00:58:57,080 --> 00:58:58,040
Speaker 1: to knock you down a peg.

1124
00:58:58,440 --> 00:59:01,360
Speaker 5: Thank you will uh Thanks everybody for listening.

1125
00:59:01,440 --> 00:59:03,960
Speaker 2: We can't wait to see you again next week, and

1126
00:59:04,080 --> 00:59:07,360
Speaker 2: as always, remember to follow your gut, watch out for

1127
00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:08,640
Speaker 2: red flags.

1128
00:59:08,360 --> 00:59:10,920
Speaker 3: And never ever trust me.

1129
00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:12,800
Speaker 5: Bye,