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Speaker 1: Hey there, everybody. My name is Chris Polett. I'm an
Speaker 1: editor here at how Stuff Works. Welcome to the podcast today.
Speaker 1: I have sitting next to me as he is usually
Speaker 1: sitting in his normal chair. Uh. Senior writer Jonathan Strickland,
Speaker 1: smooth polette. Thank you very much. Thanks for pointing that out. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm anyway. We uh, this is a little surprising to
Speaker 1: be talking to you about this particular podcast because it
Speaker 1: was actually once going to be part of another podcast
Speaker 1: and we found out it was that was the length
Speaker 1: of a normal podcast. Yeah, this was one of those
Speaker 1: times where we think, hey, we can talk about this
Speaker 1: for twenty minutes, and turns out we're right, we can
Speaker 1: talk about it for forty in fact, so we decided
Speaker 1: to um to cut short the last podcast now of course,
Speaker 1: if you listen to the last podcast, it was all
Speaker 1: about Steve Jobs, and uh, this podcast, we're gonna talk
Speaker 1: about kind of a counterpart in Steve Jobs, good old
Speaker 1: uh William H. Gates Billy Hank. Now, UM, the reason
Speaker 1: we picked these two guys for those of you who
Speaker 1: weren't listening for the last podcast, is because you know
Speaker 1: they were. They're both the same age. Uh, they started
Speaker 1: companies when they were twenty years old and back in
Speaker 1: there are a lot of parallels between these two giants
Speaker 1: in the tech industry. They're both college dropouts, Yeah exactly,
Speaker 1: which is one of those things that you I didn't
Speaker 1: even realize about both of them. Um, but yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean there's so many parallels between these guys, and yet
Speaker 1: they're so different. Right And uh, last time, we we
Speaker 1: got so wrapped up and talking about Steve Jobs and
Speaker 1: all his idiosyncrasies that we didn't have. So let's let's
Speaker 1: dive right in, shall we. So. Gates he grew up
Speaker 1: over in Seattle and UH and he was very interested
Speaker 1: in computers at an early age. UM. He actually went
Speaker 1: to uh to at an elementary school where he learned
Speaker 1: about software and programming. UM. When he was thirteen years old,
Speaker 1: and that was pretty much what sealed the deal. He
Speaker 1: decided that computers were really, really cool and he wanted
Speaker 1: to know all about them and uh and work with
Speaker 1: them and uh and boy did he. Yeah. As we
Speaker 1: mentioned in the last podcast, in the early seventies, people
Speaker 1: didn't have computers on their desktops. If you weren't around
Speaker 1: for that time period. Um, this, you know, this personal
Speaker 1: computer thing is actually really it's it's because of Bill
Speaker 1: Gates and Steve Jobs and a lot of other very
Speaker 1: very important people who worked with them. But I mean,
Speaker 1: these guys were at the forefront of this, and they
Speaker 1: people weren't interested in having a computer in their house. Well,
Speaker 1: it didn't even think it was possible, because back at
Speaker 1: that time you were mainly talking about big mainframe computers
Speaker 1: that would take up an entire floor of a building
Speaker 1: and not not something that you would be able to
Speaker 1: fit in your house, much less on a desk. Um.
Speaker 1: And it's really due to the work of people like
Speaker 1: Gates and Jobs that that changed. Now. Jobs, of course,
Speaker 1: he was really focusing on building the hardware, building an
Speaker 1: actual computer system from from the ground up. Uh, Whereas
Speaker 1: Gates was more interested in the software part of the equation.
Speaker 1: Less interested in building physical machines. He wanted to make
Speaker 1: the stuff that would run on the machines that other
Speaker 1: people were building. Yeah. As as a matter of fact, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, Gates was really into programming, and as a
Speaker 1: Harvard freshman in ninety three, he was already working on
Speaker 1: an operating system. He also met someone who would become
Speaker 1: very important in Microsoft's history as well. Oh yeah, who
Speaker 1: was That would be Steve Balmer. Oh yeah, he mentioned that,
Speaker 1: didn't He the guy who was always down the hall
Speaker 1: shouting developers, developers, developers. If you don't know what what
Speaker 1: Plett is referring to here, I suggest you go on YouTube.
Speaker 1: Type in Balmer that's b A L L M E
Speaker 1: R and developers, and you will be entertained for literally minutes.
Speaker 1: The next time you hear the word developers, you will
Speaker 1: not be able to not think it's actually kind of frightening.
Speaker 1: Steve Walmer is an intense guy, yes, and and again
Speaker 1: another important person in the development of the tech industry.
Speaker 1: But we were going to focus on Gates here. I'm
Speaker 1: totally off. Sorry, I mean sorry, I mean the jokes
Speaker 1: so so Gates, he's interested in computers. He's at Harvard. Uh,
Speaker 1: he's working on developing programming languages based off of basic UM.
Speaker 1: And Uh. Then junior year rolls around and he decides, UM,
Speaker 1: he'd rather focus on the computing aspect and less on
Speaker 1: his studies, so he drops out and uh that's when
Speaker 1: he hooks up with another giant in the tech industry
Speaker 1: and found a little company you probably heard of, fauled Microsoft. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's all the way back to now. People when people
Speaker 1: think Microsoft, now, they they're probably mainly thinking of Windows.
Speaker 1: But this is this is decades before Windows becomes a
Speaker 1: player at all. UM. But they were interested in operating systems.
Speaker 1: It's just the operating systems they were looking at. We're
Speaker 1: all text based operating systems. Do exactly operating system now.
Speaker 1: If if you've never used DOS UM then and and
Speaker 1: if your knowledge of operating systems mainly comes from graphic
Speaker 1: based interfaces like Windows or the Mac operating system, UM
Speaker 1: DOS required you to learn certain commands that would use
Speaker 1: to navigate through and find files and execute files. And
Speaker 1: he said, hell it was. It was. It was kind
Speaker 1: of kind of a labyrinth that you had to go through.
Speaker 1: You had to really learn a lexicon if you will,
Speaker 1: of commands. But here's the flip side of it. It
Speaker 1: was lightning fast because you didn't have to worry about
Speaker 1: driving graphics or anything like that. The the the program, the
Speaker 1: operating system was just amazingly fast. Even if you were
Speaker 1: running an older machine, you weren't waiting around forever for
Speaker 1: something to execute. But this is where computers got their
Speaker 1: reputation for being difficult to use UM, which, again, if
Speaker 1: you're younger, you might not remember a time when that
Speaker 1: was a deal, but uh yeah, this was This was
Speaker 1: a problem that plagued early computer manufacturers like IBM when
Speaker 1: they entered the personal computer market was well, why would
Speaker 1: I want to do that? Computers are hard to use? Well,
Speaker 1: of course you had to learn all these dos commands, uh,
Speaker 1: and it just wasn't very into No. So that's we're
Speaker 1: jumping ahead quite a few years here, because it was
Speaker 1: several years to develop the graphics based UM interface, although
Speaker 1: other companies had taken a stab at it before Microsoft
Speaker 1: did UM. Xerox was one of them, and even Apple
Speaker 1: with the Macintosh operating system. UM had found ways of
Speaker 1: using a graphic based interface. But the thing about IBM
Speaker 1: based computers, which eventually morphed into PCs. UM. That's what
Speaker 1: enterprises had adopted. Those were the Those were the computers
Speaker 1: that businesses picked up because they were for some they
Speaker 1: were really seen as kind of utilitarian. They weren't the
Speaker 1: sexy computers of the Macintosh world, but they were known
Speaker 1: as workhorses. Horses, so you've got all these you know,
Speaker 1: you've got a huge customer base already built into this.
Speaker 1: And so when Microsoft Windows came out, everyone thought of
Speaker 1: it as revolutionary, even though technically it had been done before.
Speaker 1: And that's that's one thing to remember about Bill Gates
Speaker 1: is that while he was interested in programming up front,
Speaker 1: he's definitely a shrewd business person and he can recognize
Speaker 1: a market when he sees it um and Uh. Part
Speaker 1: of the reason that the funny thing is um and
Speaker 1: this is really from personal experience. Part of the reason
Speaker 1: that PCs were so popular with enterprises was because they
Speaker 1: were hard to use. They seemed like they were serious
Speaker 1: business machines. So you know, they were for creating spreadsheets
Speaker 1: and crunching numbers, and that's what you do with a business,
Speaker 1: is you know, because they didn't have Facebook yet, right,
Speaker 1: and and Gates was very shrewd at forming partnerships with
Speaker 1: UH computer manufacturers. He was able to get the Windows
Speaker 1: operating system off on computers assu as they were coming
Speaker 1: off of the lines, so the production lines. So suddenly,
Speaker 1: now you have an operating system that's on most of
Speaker 1: the computers that are out there. By default, most people
Speaker 1: are going to be familiar with that system over any
Speaker 1: other because that's the that's the default operating system. You know,
Speaker 1: you didn't have a whole lot of choices. It was
Speaker 1: either going to be a Macintosh or a PC that's
Speaker 1: running some sort of Microsoft operating system. That's right. Microsoft
Speaker 1: actually got into the DOSS business first. They had their
Speaker 1: own brand of of dos MS DOSS, which I believe
Speaker 1: was was purchased primarily but um I think I think
Speaker 1: Bill Gates actually did some work on that in the
Speaker 1: coding department because this was this was still in the
Speaker 1: early days and he wasn't all into the UH administration
Speaker 1: part of it yet. Um. But then they were also
Speaker 1: Microsoft was also in the business of writing applications for
Speaker 1: a host of different systems, like I don't know, this
Speaker 1: little thing called the Macintosh, and for a long time,
Speaker 1: the best business software for the mac was all the
Speaker 1: office suite. That's where it got its start. Um. So
Speaker 1: they you know, before it just I did to crush
Speaker 1: the living daylights out of Apple. Microsoft actually used Apple
Speaker 1: as a starting point. Uh. You know, they made a
Speaker 1: lot of money from the from the Apple computers. They
Speaker 1: actually did stuff for the Apple too as well. Right, so, um,
Speaker 1: you know we're we're talking IBM PCs. Uh you know,
Speaker 1: the operating system plus applications for the Mac and for
Speaker 1: other Apple computers. So he, you know, Bill pretty much
Speaker 1: had a grasp on everything he needed to to get
Speaker 1: a good foothold in the computer market. And when he
Speaker 1: started bundling things together Microsoft products together with the Windows system,
Speaker 1: it was pretty much game over at that point for
Speaker 1: a lot of different software companies because automatically you have
Speaker 1: a leg up. You don't suddenly the user when they
Speaker 1: buy the computer and bring it home, plug it in,
Speaker 1: turn it on. There's a whole suite of programs right
Speaker 1: there that they can use, and usually there was some
Speaker 1: sort of trial version and you could purchase a full
Speaker 1: version later. Um. But it meant that you didn't have
Speaker 1: to go out shopping for these program ms. You had
Speaker 1: your word processor there, and you had your spreadsheet application
Speaker 1: there and uh and actually Microsoft caught a lot of
Speaker 1: flak for that. There were a lot of antitrust lawsuits
Speaker 1: being thrown around UM, saying that it was not fair
Speaker 1: that Microsoft only had a strangle hold on the operating
Speaker 1: system market, but also the applications market. Well, if and
Speaker 1: if you don't believe us, there were there are things
Speaker 1: that were essentially speed bumps for Microsoft to get where
Speaker 1: it is today. And those things are called word Perfect
Speaker 1: and one two, three, Lotuses and uh, Netscape and these
Speaker 1: these companies. Again, if you're younger and are not familiar
Speaker 1: with these companies, they were huge in their individual markets.
Speaker 1: But as soon as Microsoft came out with a competitor
Speaker 1: UM and the more integrated the operating system became, and it,
Speaker 1: you know, had leverage over the other Our people who
Speaker 1: really didn't want to go looking for other stuff and
Speaker 1: face it work creatures of convenience. Yeah, and you think
Speaker 1: about it, the operating system. They could design the operations
Speaker 1: system to work so well with these applications and have
Speaker 1: these applications work so well with each other so well
Speaker 1: being a relative term, I mean, if you've used word
Speaker 1: and tried to import stuff from power Point or excel.
Speaker 1: You might disagree, but in general, working really well together. Uh,
Speaker 1: you can see where that would seem like a completely
Speaker 1: unfair advantage, because they can build everything so that their
Speaker 1: programs work flawlessly. And not only that, but there were
Speaker 1: allegations every now and then that Microsoft was going to
Speaker 1: great links to build in systems that would hamper other
Speaker 1: programs so they wouldn't run as well on Windows. Um,
Speaker 1: I've I've heard conspiracy theorists say that they that Microsoft
Speaker 1: actually built the I T industry on purpose. Um, you know, right,
Speaker 1: fostering Windows certification programs by having so much buggy software. Yeah,
Speaker 1: people who bought the first part part of Wisdom might
Speaker 1: agree with you. Yeah, okay, So moving on. So anyway,
Speaker 1: so Gates. Gates is in the lead here, and as
Speaker 1: Poulette pointed out, he was moving on into a more
Speaker 1: administrative role, although he was still the chief software architect
Speaker 1: for Microsoft for for many more years. But I'd like
Speaker 1: to point out to all those people who said that
Speaker 1: people shouldn't pick on Bill Gates because he wrote Windows.
Speaker 1: He didn't write Windows. No, he did not. He did
Speaker 1: not write Windows. He was very good at championing it.
Speaker 1: Oh sure, he's outstanding. It at basically everything he's done,
Speaker 1: he's you know, gone from the software programmer to you know,
Speaker 1: an administrator to a marketing genius. Except for Seinfeld's good buddy,
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, taking a shower in his shoes,
Speaker 1: trying to soften him up. They run tight, Yeah they do.
Speaker 1: The punky's the doors. Um, but yeah, I mean, it's
Speaker 1: it's obvious the the effect that he he and his company. Um.
Speaker 1: Of course, he wouldn't have been able to do this
Speaker 1: without thousands and thousands of extremely talented people, but he
Speaker 1: built that company with some pretty amazing mind. And here's
Speaker 1: an interesting point I wanted to bring up now. Of course,
Speaker 1: we talked about Jobs last week, and we're talking about
Speaker 1: Gates now. One of the things I wanted to point
Speaker 1: out as a difference between the two is that, in
Speaker 1: a way, you could say that Jobs created a company
Speaker 1: that almost revolves around him at this point, like if
Speaker 1: Jobs were to leave the company or something were to
Speaker 1: happen to him, you would see the shares drop pretty dramatically,
Speaker 1: most people think. Anyway. Gates, however, created a company and then,
Speaker 1: according to people within Microsoft, tried to build a company
Speaker 1: that could continue and be successful even without his direct influence.
Speaker 1: So in a way, Jobs created a cult and Gates
Speaker 1: created a company. Right, So that's kind of an interesting thing.
Speaker 1: And here's another thing that I should point out. He
Speaker 1: had a style that was very much like Jobs style
Speaker 1: in the sense that he had extremely high uh expectations
Speaker 1: for everyone who worked for him, and he was not
Speaker 1: shy about pointing it out when you failed to meet
Speaker 1: those expectations. And there are several reports that came out
Speaker 1: of Microsoft from former workers who said that Gates doesn't
Speaker 1: tend to dole out positive reinforcement that often, but he
Speaker 1: will be very quick to point out when he thinks
Speaker 1: you're not doing the right thing. Um. And someone else
Speaker 1: pointed out they said, if Gates argues with you, that's
Speaker 1: not a bad thing because it means that he cares.
Speaker 1: It's when Gates doesn't talk to you, it doesn't bring
Speaker 1: anything up that you need to start worrying. Right. So
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, wow, uh, scary guy. The word that
Speaker 1: most people use is intense. Yeah. Yeah. Nonetheless, Microsoft does
Speaker 1: have a reputation of taking pretty good care of its employees,
Speaker 1: and it's a you know, got a reputation for being
Speaker 1: a very good place to work place where people have
Speaker 1: been able to do um to try new projects and things.
Speaker 1: Not maybe on the same uh in the same way
Speaker 1: that Google has, but I think Microsoft is directly responsible
Speaker 1: for a lot of the office atmospheres like Google definitely,
Speaker 1: because people were willing to take a chance on the
Speaker 1: you know what happens if we nurture our employees. One
Speaker 1: of the things Gates discovered was that, I mean, he
Speaker 1: was thinking back to his college environment, and it was
Speaker 1: that if you have all the things that you enjoy
Speaker 1: when you're of you know, the early twenties or whatever
Speaker 1: around you at work, you're less likely to want to
Speaker 1: go home at the end of the day. You may
Speaker 1: just stick around and do a couple more hours of
Speaker 1: coding because you know, you've got some fun stuff around
Speaker 1: the office to keep you, you know, distracted and once
Speaker 1: in a while so you don't get totally burned out. So,
Speaker 1: you know, Microsoft, on the early days, I had like
Speaker 1: pinball machines and stuff in the office, and sure enough
Speaker 1: it worked. I mean, he had coders who would work
Speaker 1: insane number of hours each week and they didn't mind
Speaker 1: the fact that they weren't going home. Most of them
Speaker 1: didn't have really any families at this point, they were young,
Speaker 1: they were just out of college. So this is the
Speaker 1: same sort of atmosphere you see companies like Google kind
Speaker 1: of promoting today. And part of it is, yeah, you're
Speaker 1: nurturing your employees. But another part of it is, this
Speaker 1: is a good way for us to get the absolute
Speaker 1: most out of the people who worked for us with
Speaker 1: just some simple investments. Well that's true, and I I
Speaker 1: want to say to that for the longest time, I'll
Speaker 1: admit this, you know, especially as a Mac person. Um
Speaker 1: and someone who only has used Windows computers, or at
Speaker 1: least primarily has used Windows computers at work. So a
Speaker 1: member of the cult. Yeah, um. And I was a
Speaker 1: member of another cult before that called the Amigans. Um.
Speaker 1: But you know, I think a lot of people for
Speaker 1: a long time had this impression that that Bill Gates,
Speaker 1: especially with the company being as monolithic as it is
Speaker 1: in the industry. Um, the Bill Gates is this really tough?
Speaker 1: You know, very he stayed buttoned up kind of guy.
Speaker 1: And as it turns out, he's got a lot of
Speaker 1: other interests and a lot of u he cares for
Speaker 1: other people too. I didn't realize until I started doing
Speaker 1: the research on this that he founded Corbus, the stock
Speaker 1: photography company and still has a hand in it. So
Speaker 1: he's a you know, a photography enthusiast. Um. And of
Speaker 1: course he's a philanthropist too, on his scale that most
Speaker 1: philanthropists never even touched yet, it's beyond even the Ted
Speaker 1: Turner level. It's, uh, it's pretty impressive. Yeah, he founded
Speaker 1: the the well there's the Bill and co founded the
Speaker 1: Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. Yes, Melinda French was an
Speaker 1: employee of Microsoft and they were married on January one
Speaker 1: and have three kids. Um, and that's that's something. You know,
Speaker 1: he's a family guy. But you know, Bill and Melinda
Speaker 1: together founded this foundation and and it's all about investing
Speaker 1: in uh ways to improve hell worldwide. So they're not
Speaker 1: focusing on just one community or anything like that. They
Speaker 1: have a genuine desire to promote health across the entire world.
Speaker 1: I mean that's a very noble pursuit. And and the
Speaker 1: fact that he's he's pouring billions of dollars into this,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's there was a one interview where he
Speaker 1: said he gave thirty six billion dollars to the foundation.
Speaker 1: That's I can't even imagine that much money. I can't
Speaker 1: imagine one billion, let alone thirty six. Yeah. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: actually more money than the auto manufacturers we're asking for
Speaker 1: as a group, um from the government. UM. But they
Speaker 1: also are involved in educational pursuits as well. They have
Speaker 1: donated a lot of computers and software to schools that
Speaker 1: are underserved by computer technology. UM. And they are interested
Speaker 1: in solving actually the sort of a merger in between.
Speaker 1: They're interested in solving a lot of these problems, medical
Speaker 1: problems with technology, finding technological means to to solve some
Speaker 1: of these problems. So it's uh, pretty amazing some of
Speaker 1: the stuff he's done. And and you know, of course
Speaker 1: he's had to scale back on his work at Microsoft. Yeah.
Speaker 1: In fact, he's he's in two thousand and six. Uh
Speaker 1: he named Ray Ozzy as the new Chief Software Architect,
Speaker 1: which was kind of the beginning of his transitioning away
Speaker 1: from Microsoft in a in a lead role. UM. Steve Balmer,
Speaker 1: who we mentioned way early in the podcast, He's developers,
Speaker 1: he's the new CEO UM and Gates is still the chairman, sure,
Speaker 1: but he has, uh, he he's he's decided to scale
Speaker 1: down his work at Microsoft. He's probably only putting in
Speaker 1: maybe forty hour weeks now has to have like the
Speaker 1: ninety hour weeks he used to do. UM. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: it was June two thousand eight that he transitioned out
Speaker 1: of being the the head of the company at that
Speaker 1: point and to focus more upon the foundation and his
Speaker 1: other philanthropic pursuits. UM. I actually saw his final keynote
Speaker 1: address at ES last year and it was very entertaining.
Speaker 1: They had a full video about what gates Is last
Speaker 1: day would probably be like and what his retirement would
Speaker 1: be like, and it involved him calling up lots of
Speaker 1: celebrities and giving them advice that they did not want
Speaker 1: nor need. And Jerry Seinfeld was in it. There's the
Speaker 1: big surprise. So that's the other thing is that the
Speaker 1: Gates seems to have a real sense of humor about himself,
Speaker 1: especially now. I mean maybe if you maybe if you
Speaker 1: went back to the nineteen eighties Gates he would have
Speaker 1: been a little more focused and intense, But these days
Speaker 1: he's really willing to poke fun at himself in various ways,
Speaker 1: and which is very clear from that video and from
Speaker 1: the Jerry Seinfeld commercials where uh, it didn't seem to
Speaker 1: be promoting anything at all really because these odd commercials
Speaker 1: that didn't really go anywhere and they weren't promoting anything
Speaker 1: at the time. Let's kind of take the sting out
Speaker 1: of uh A an issue that people had with Windows Vista,
Speaker 1: which of course was one of the the latest versions
Speaker 1: of the Windows operating system. A lot of people considered
Speaker 1: it to be inferior because early on there were several
Speaker 1: issues with Windows Vista. People were having problems with it crashing,
Speaker 1: um it wasn't there were some security issues. It got
Speaker 1: a lot of bad press, and because of that, a
Speaker 1: lot of the enterprise systems, you know, a lot of
Speaker 1: the businesses decided to hold off on adopting Windows Vista,
Speaker 1: and they stuck around with like Windows XP or one
Speaker 1: of the other forms of Windows rather than upgrading to
Speaker 1: the latest version. And uh so that's kind of what's
Speaker 1: interesting now is that Windows seven is already coming out
Speaker 1: and like next year, I think it's supposed to be
Speaker 1: December two thousand nine, so maybe not two thousand ten
Speaker 1: just yet, but maybe this year by the time you're
Speaker 1: listening to this, right, well, and uh but yeah, so
Speaker 1: Windows seven coming out that that quickly because Vista hasn't
Speaker 1: been out that long I mean, usually you've got a
Speaker 1: few years between between versions we have, you know, Windows
Speaker 1: ninety five, Windows ninety eight. But apparently even even Bill
Speaker 1: Gates occasionally lets people know when he thinks his product,
Speaker 1: the products Microsoft releases are not up to snuff. He's
Speaker 1: sent emails before complaining about having problems installing certain software
Speaker 1: programs using the Windows system and saying there shouldn't be
Speaker 1: a problem doing this. Fix it. So when you're when
Speaker 1: you're former CEO and current chairman sends those emails, I
Speaker 1: guess you you tend to listen. Yeah, that's interesting guy.
Speaker 1: And uh, you know, just another interesting thing about Bill
Speaker 1: Gates is that he's an author. Oh yes, yeah, and
Speaker 1: that kind of leads well into our sponsor. Yes, we're
Speaker 1: gonna talk about audible dot com. Yes, you can go
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Speaker 1: free download. Uh. They have thousands and thousands of audio books.
Speaker 1: And we've picked out too that old Gates wrote himself. Yes,
Speaker 1: one of those is Business at the Speed of Thought
Speaker 1: using a Digital Nervous System by William H. Gates. The third,
Speaker 1: yes and mine is The Road Ahead by Bill Gates.
Speaker 1: And that's Gates's take on how the Internet will affect
Speaker 1: all of our lives in various ways. Now you can
Speaker 1: get either one of those or any other audible book
Speaker 1: at audible dot com at uh for free download if
Speaker 1: you sign up at www Dot Audible podcast dot com
Speaker 1: slash stuff. All right, then, I guess that's about all
Speaker 1: we've got for Yeah, the old the old one to
Speaker 1: swing Jobs and Gates. Okay, so you're a Matt guy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm a PC guy. Yeah, so you're You're justin Long
Speaker 1: and I'm John Hodgman. Um did uh doing research for this?
Speaker 1: Is that change your opinion at all about the cult
Speaker 1: of jobs? Or I'm still a mac os guy? Yeah?
Speaker 1: But so so you like you like giving money to
Speaker 1: the least philanthropic company. Yeah, okay, well that's fair enough.
Speaker 1: I have a Max too. I like my Mac. I
Speaker 1: enjoy Max. And yeah, so we're not really as you know,
Speaker 1: we're not really as divided as we come across. Um.
Speaker 1: But here's the thing is that you've used You've used
Speaker 1: Max most of for most of your computing post Amiga,
Speaker 1: and I've used PCs for most of my computing post
Speaker 1: Apple to E. So that's really where we're coming from.
Speaker 1: But we both recognize the value of the other systems
Speaker 1: and and truly we would not be here at this
Speaker 1: job if it weren't for jobs and gates. So thank you, guys, awesome,
Speaker 1: thanks very much, appreciate it. So, if you, guys want
Speaker 1: to learn more about these topics, you can read all
Speaker 1: about everything you can imagine on computers right at how
Speaker 1: stuff works dot com right now, and we'll talk to
Speaker 1: you again really soon for more on this and thousands
Speaker 1: of other topics. Does it how stuff works dot com?
Speaker 1: Um let us know what you think. Send an email
Speaker 1: to podcast at how stuff works dot com. Brought to
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Speaker 1: are you