WEBVTT - The Russian SPY Factory In Brazil, Explained: New York Times BOMBSHELL Story Reaction 0:00:03.960 --> 0:00:06.760 Hello there, Welcome to another episode of the Chuck Podcast. 0:00:06.880 --> 0:00:10.479 We have a fascinating set of guests for you today. 0:00:10.520 --> 0:00:13.720 It's the two New York Times reporters behind the uncovering 0:00:14.320 --> 0:00:18.920 of these I guess you might call them a sleeper 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:25.200 Russian agents and how the country of Brazil essentially became 0:00:25.239 --> 0:00:28.120 an incubator for the You know, if you were a 0:00:28.160 --> 0:00:30.200 fan of the show of the Americans and this idea 0:00:30.200 --> 0:00:34.000 of the illegals and the actual program where you had 0:00:34.040 --> 0:00:40.320 these deep undercover spies that Russia will infiltrate various Western societies, well, 0:00:41.040 --> 0:00:43.080 way do you understand? And you're going to hear and 0:00:43.080 --> 0:00:45.760 they do a terrific job of telling you the story. 0:00:46.240 --> 0:00:49.320 But how Brazil and it sort of has unique ways 0:00:49.360 --> 0:00:53.880 of proving of being able to get a birth certificate, 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:59.240 that it became basically ground zero for the Russians and 0:00:59.240 --> 0:01:03.240 for Putin's factctory to potentially and what's interesting is that 0:01:03.280 --> 0:01:07.360 it's possible this has been going on since before the 0:01:07.440 --> 0:01:10.760 end of the Cold War and in fact may have 0:01:10.959 --> 0:01:14.560 been sort of never It wasn't some a program that 0:01:14.600 --> 0:01:17.640 was quote unquote revived when Putin came into power that 0:01:17.680 --> 0:01:21.000 actually never ended, even as the Cold War ended. Anyway, 0:01:21.000 --> 0:01:24.479 It's a fascinating conversation. I hope you make time for it. 0:01:24.120 --> 0:01:26.639 It's a terrific It's why I'm releasing it on Thursday, 0:01:26.640 --> 0:01:30.160 because I think it's a terrific longer listen if you will. 0:01:30.160 --> 0:01:31.440 But before we get to that, I want to do 0:01:31.480 --> 0:01:34.480 a little bit of I've got my hands on polling 0:01:34.640 --> 0:01:37.920 in a couple of important states, Texas and Michigan, as 0:01:37.920 --> 0:01:39.880 well as some polling that I'm going to be dismissive 0:01:39.920 --> 0:01:41.800 of in South Carolina. I'll tell you that in a minute. 0:01:43.400 --> 0:01:45.679 And while both Texas and Michigan are very twenty twenty 0:01:45.680 --> 0:01:49.640 six oriented, there is I want to sort of sort 0:01:49.640 --> 0:01:52.120 of do a little big picture here and just say, 0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:54.840 you know, as we're sort of the leader of the 0:01:54.840 --> 0:01:57.920 Republican Party has put the Republican Party right now, and 0:01:57.960 --> 0:02:01.080 how Donald Trump is actually putting them and starting to 0:02:01.080 --> 0:02:03.680 make some of the same mistakes that leaders of previous 0:02:04.040 --> 0:02:07.960 you know, previous presidents have helped to create similar mistakes 0:02:07.960 --> 0:02:11.800 that have only led their party to losses, particularly in 0:02:11.960 --> 0:02:16.720 midterm years. Just think about what he's been talking about 0:02:16.760 --> 0:02:22.400 more over the last oh say, seventy two ninety six hours, 0:02:22.560 --> 0:02:25.880 right he spent Memorial Day weekend attacking Harvard. He compared 0:02:25.919 --> 0:02:29.280 himself to al Capone. He hyped his crypto business. His 0:02:29.400 --> 0:02:32.320 kids are out in Vegas doing more crypto business this week. 0:02:32.639 --> 0:02:37.639 His vice president was raising money from crypto guys. Didn't 0:02:37.680 --> 0:02:41.799 really mention fallen soldiers, particularly at West Point, used the 0:02:41.840 --> 0:02:47.120 West Point commencement address to rehash his personal legal grievances. 0:02:47.360 --> 0:02:50.000 The point is he was making it all about himself. 0:02:50.480 --> 0:02:54.600 And the thing with midterm elections is that presidents, you know, 0:02:54.760 --> 0:02:57.240 are even when they're not on the ballot, they composed 0:02:57.360 --> 0:02:59.680 the mood music of it, and they can have an 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:02.760 impact on that. And this is sort of doubly a 0:03:02.840 --> 0:03:06.200 problem for the Republican Party because Donald Trump, you know, 0:03:06.240 --> 0:03:08.000 when his name's on the ballot, there are a group 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:09.840 of voters that show up. But when his name's not 0:03:09.840 --> 0:03:12.120 on a ballot, these voters don't show up, and the 0:03:12.200 --> 0:03:16.000 voters that do show up are more are listening to 0:03:16.160 --> 0:03:19.359 the mood music that's being composed by Trump, and right 0:03:19.400 --> 0:03:22.040 now that is not in a good place for the midterms. 0:03:22.040 --> 0:03:24.200 And in fact, even if he gets his big agenda bill, 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:27.919 the problem he's got is that there's no new deliverable. Right, 0:03:27.960 --> 0:03:30.680 there's not an extra tax cut, it's just keeping the 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:33.880 tax bill the same. And it's hard to convince somebody, oh, 0:03:33.880 --> 0:03:36.400 it could have been worse if I didn't do it. 0:03:37.880 --> 0:03:40.760 And yet that's you know, he doesn't have a lot 0:03:40.800 --> 0:03:43.400 of wins. The one place where he has some wins 0:03:43.480 --> 0:03:47.080 is on the border, and it's not an insignificant thing. 0:03:47.160 --> 0:03:49.840 And I think that it's the one place that I 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:52.480 think voters are pretty happy with how things are going. 0:03:52.560 --> 0:03:55.200 But look at the central issue of how he won 0:03:55.240 --> 0:03:57.880 this election. He won this election on prices in the economy. 0:03:58.240 --> 0:04:00.720 I think the border was second, but I think it 0:04:00.800 --> 0:04:03.080 was and I think when you think about these swing voters, 0:04:03.480 --> 0:04:05.600 they didn't swing on the border. Those swing voters swung 0:04:06.040 --> 0:04:08.640 on prices in the economy and the belief that Trump 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:11.280 knew how to manage a better economy and a disbelief 0:04:11.320 --> 0:04:13.520 that Biden and Harris knew what they were doing on 0:04:13.560 --> 0:04:17.839 the economy. So he hasn't really focused on lowering prices 0:04:17.880 --> 0:04:20.720 because prices haven't been lowered. If anything, it feels as 0:04:20.760 --> 0:04:23.760 if prices are going to go back up right thanks 0:04:23.800 --> 0:04:27.479 to what's happening in what's happening with his with his 0:04:27.640 --> 0:04:31.159 unsteady tariff policy, So he's not looking forward, he's not 0:04:31.320 --> 0:04:36.400 addressing sort of the near term needs of the electorate 0:04:36.480 --> 0:04:39.080 or it economically, and he's not going to have to 0:04:39.080 --> 0:04:41.800 campaign on this. Other Republicans are going to be having 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:44.720 to campaign on this, and they have to campaign defending this. 0:04:44.800 --> 0:04:47.159 They can't run as change candidates. And one thing I 0:04:47.160 --> 0:04:50.600 think we've learned is that we're perpetually in a change 0:04:51.080 --> 0:04:54.040 change cycle. It was a change election in six it 0:04:54.040 --> 0:04:55.880 was a change election in o eight, It's a change 0:04:55.880 --> 0:04:59.240 election in ten, and was not a change election in 0:04:59.279 --> 0:05:02.160 twelve as a term out or Mitt Romney would have won. 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:04.200 But it was a change election in fourteen. It was 0:05:04.240 --> 0:05:06.279 a change election in sixteen. It was a change election 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:08.880 in eighteen, so change election in twenty, so a change 0:05:08.880 --> 0:05:10.640 election in twenty two, and it was a change election 0:05:10.640 --> 0:05:12.719 in twenty twenty in twenty four. Do you see a 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:13.320 pattern here? 0:05:13.400 --> 0:05:13.560 Right? 0:05:13.839 --> 0:05:17.320 We know what we don't want, and we're certainly not 0:05:17.440 --> 0:05:22.800 happy with incumbency in general, especially when it appears you've 0:05:22.839 --> 0:05:26.440 taken your eye off the ball. Right, George W. Bush 0:05:26.480 --> 0:05:31.640 and the Republicans got pummeled in six because in five 0:05:31.760 --> 0:05:35.080 and six after winning reelection in four on safety and 0:05:35.120 --> 0:05:39.000 security issues. He started focusing on social security, don't touch it. 0:05:39.400 --> 0:05:42.800 Then we got into these sort of weird, nuanced issues 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:45.719 where government was getting involved in an end of life 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:48.040 care the Terry Schivo If you want to know more 0:05:48.040 --> 0:05:49.880 about that, if you ahead and do your own Google 0:05:49.880 --> 0:05:52.320 and deep dive on Terry Schivo. But it really was 0:05:52.360 --> 0:05:55.320 sort of government, you know, getting too involved in your life, 0:05:55.800 --> 0:05:59.160 and it was the Republicans right doing that, and they 0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:02.479 and it and handed the Democrats the hey, get government 0:06:02.480 --> 0:06:05.440 out out of your life message. Do you see something 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:08.240 similar happening here? Go read the most recent column of 0:06:08.279 --> 0:06:11.560 George Will, and he makes the case that the current 0:06:11.640 --> 0:06:15.960 version of the Republican Party has become as pro government 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:19.080 and in some way as dictatorial of what government that 0:06:19.120 --> 0:06:21.120 government should tell you how to live your life, in 0:06:21.160 --> 0:06:24.040 the same way that he would criticize progressives for wanting 0:06:24.120 --> 0:06:26.760 to do similar things. In fact, he called it a 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:30.520 progress said it's the most progressive administration we've ever had 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:34.640 in the American presidency. Obviously, George Will, who's more of 0:06:34.640 --> 0:06:38.360 a limited government conservative, doesn't see his version of conservatism 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:42.000 at all being represented by this wing of the Republican Party. 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:45.279 And the problem is Trump is the party right for 0:06:45.360 --> 0:06:48.440 better or for worse. So he defines the party and 0:06:49.200 --> 0:06:52.440 we already know this. It is his version is not popular. 0:06:52.800 --> 0:06:56.479 He only succeeds when something is more unpopular standing next 0:06:56.560 --> 0:07:00.240 to him, and he won't be on the ballot. And yes, 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:03.440 he'll try to revive Joe Biden, and they'll try to 0:07:03.480 --> 0:07:05.640 make that a issue. You already see some Republicans are 0:07:05.640 --> 0:07:09.440 trying to revise that the issue of the trans women 0:07:09.520 --> 0:07:12.040 in sports. That's the first ad and the Georgia Senate 0:07:12.120 --> 0:07:14.880 race that a Republican is running. So they certainly want 0:07:14.880 --> 0:07:17.760 to try to keep running on the culture wars of 0:07:17.800 --> 0:07:22.120 some sort. But it's going to be tough if Democrats 0:07:22.200 --> 0:07:26.320 actually focus on near term issues. Look, Democrats have you know, 0:07:26.600 --> 0:07:29.880 Barack Obama focusing on healthcare even though he was arguing 0:07:29.920 --> 0:07:33.760 that healthcare would help long term economic prospects, that did 0:07:33.800 --> 0:07:36.480 not answer the near term need that voters had when 0:07:36.480 --> 0:07:38.960 it came to the financial crisis, And why wasn't there 0:07:39.000 --> 0:07:40.800 more of a focus on that, and why wasn't there 0:07:40.840 --> 0:07:43.800 more you know, essentially old Testament justice when it came 0:07:43.840 --> 0:07:47.240 to the financial crisis, and so and I think that 0:07:47.360 --> 0:07:52.440 was among the explanations of why why Obama got Obama's 0:07:52.440 --> 0:07:55.600 party got their head handed to them in the twenty 0:07:55.600 --> 0:07:59.800 ten midterms and then, arguably to a lesser extent in 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:04.240 twenty fourteen. So I don't think right now and this 0:08:04.280 --> 0:08:06.920 is a critical time. This isn't a random time to 0:08:06.960 --> 0:08:09.480 be bringing this up. This is a critical time for 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:13.040 Republicans to be recruiting candidates for office, for Republicans to 0:08:13.040 --> 0:08:16.000 be convincing incumbents to run for reelection again. And when 0:08:16.000 --> 0:08:19.040 they look at the mood music that Donald Trump is composing, 0:08:19.400 --> 0:08:22.320 and they look at the at this big, beautiful bill 0:08:22.840 --> 0:08:27.200 that is not going to have a lot of things 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:30.119 that are easy to sell to the public that feel 0:08:30.200 --> 0:08:33.560 responsive to their current needs. You know, maybe he figures 0:08:33.559 --> 0:08:36.439 out a way to write a check signed by Donald 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:39.000 Trump to people. Maybe it'll be twenty bucks, whatever it is. 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:41.360 He's going to try some gimmick like that, because they're 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:43.160 going to have to try something like that. But these, 0:08:43.640 --> 0:08:46.480 you know, any changes to Medicaid are going to be unpopular. 0:08:47.120 --> 0:08:49.520 I think one thing we're going to learn is that 0:08:49.600 --> 0:08:53.120 Medicaid is as an untouchable. As I pointed out yesterday 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:56.280 in the previous podcast is as untouchable as Social Security 0:08:56.280 --> 0:09:02.360 and Medicare. And I think that back of part of 0:09:02.440 --> 0:09:05.600 this is that Republicans have never been defenders of Medicaid before. 0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:09.520 They've been critics of the program for decades, and now 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:13.120 that it's essentially universally popular, and because it is a 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:16.480 safety net, not just if you if you're out of 0:09:16.520 --> 0:09:18.319 a job, but it's a safety net if you're stuck 0:09:18.320 --> 0:09:20.920 doing a job that doesn't offer benefits. It's also a 0:09:20.960 --> 0:09:24.280 safety net if you run out of money before before 0:09:24.280 --> 0:09:26.480 the end of your life. It is a safety net 0:09:26.559 --> 0:09:31.520 for a lot of Americans, not just Americans unquote unquote welfare. 0:09:32.480 --> 0:09:34.760 So with that, I just wanted to put that out 0:09:34.760 --> 0:09:36.800 there because I do think Donald Trump's not helping his 0:09:36.840 --> 0:09:39.559 party at all, and we have some initial polling to show, 0:09:39.960 --> 0:09:42.000 you know, his job. There's a new Texas poll that 0:09:42.040 --> 0:09:43.840 I think is a quite good poll, although I think 0:09:43.840 --> 0:09:46.520 it did a real poor job asking one question and 0:09:46.520 --> 0:09:50.120 I'll get to it, but Texas Southern University, the Barbara 0:09:50.200 --> 0:09:53.480 Jordan School, they put out a very uh and there. Look, 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:55.040 there's not a lot of great polling in the state 0:09:55.080 --> 0:09:57.960 of Texas, but this is a pretty good one and 0:09:58.000 --> 0:10:00.320 has had a pretty good track record, and it measures 0:10:00.400 --> 0:10:04.600 the big stuff, including presidential job rating. In Texas. Okay, 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:07.400 there's a red state. He's sitting at fifty three percent 0:10:07.760 --> 0:10:11.080 and they did her. If you could do a revote, 0:10:11.160 --> 0:10:14.360 Trump's fourteen point win over Harris would be down to eight. Now, 0:10:14.360 --> 0:10:17.359 part of that is we know that the midterm electorate 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:21.080 is going to be less trumpy, right, Yet another reason 0:10:21.240 --> 0:10:25.560 for why Trump's inability to give to sort of deliver 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:29.120 items that the voters are going to care about come 0:10:29.200 --> 0:10:31.520 the midterms is going to be a real challenge for 0:10:31.559 --> 0:10:34.319 them because it's electorate. As we know, the more focused 0:10:34.400 --> 0:10:38.080 you are on voting in a midterm, the less pro 0:10:38.200 --> 0:10:41.319 Trump you are. But just to give you a sense 0:10:41.360 --> 0:10:43.720 of because this is I think a pretty good standing. 0:10:43.920 --> 0:10:46.880 He's got a fifty three percent job approval, which again 0:10:46.920 --> 0:10:51.080 this is Texas, that's not the greatest. Forty seven percent 0:10:51.080 --> 0:10:53.480 in Texas are disapproving of the job he's doing. Now, 0:10:53.480 --> 0:10:56.200 his approval rating is higher on immigration than any other 0:10:56.240 --> 0:10:59.200 issue at fifty six percent, and this is the one 0:10:59.520 --> 0:11:02.920 issue that he has been pulling universally across the board. 0:11:02.960 --> 0:11:06.720 Has been given credit for that. Ironically, he was assisted 0:11:06.760 --> 0:11:10.480 by finally in the last year of his presidency, after 0:11:10.520 --> 0:11:12.400 a new chief of staff came in, Jeff Science, that 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:15.600 allowed the Department of Homeland Security in Ali Mayorcus to 0:11:15.600 --> 0:11:17.480 actually do the job that they were trying to do 0:11:17.520 --> 0:11:19.520 in the first two years of the Biden administration, and 0:11:19.559 --> 0:11:22.199 for some reason the West wing or the president wasn't 0:11:22.240 --> 0:11:27.440 allowing them to do their job. But in many ways, 0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:31.600 the Biden administration gave Trump a head start at getting 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:33.800 I mean, the cynic in me thinks that one of 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:38.160 the reasons why Stephen Miller is pushing for rescinding some 0:11:38.200 --> 0:11:47.040 of these temporary protected status citations for different for different 0:11:47.240 --> 0:11:50.880 immigrants from different countries is so they can then drum 0:11:50.960 --> 0:11:53.680 up their deportation numbers, because once you pull away the 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:58.080 protected status, then suddenly they're eligible for deportation. And clearly 0:11:58.120 --> 0:12:01.400 they care more about the metrics than than wanting to 0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:04.199 admit that Biden did seventy percent of the job for 0:12:04.240 --> 0:12:08.000 them before they got to it, because that's an uncomfortable 0:12:08.040 --> 0:12:11.200 truth that they would not want to admit. Here's what's 0:12:11.200 --> 0:12:14.840 also interesting in here is that Texas voters he's got 0:12:14.840 --> 0:12:17.200 a higher approval rating than his overall approval rating on 0:12:17.240 --> 0:12:19.599 the issue of reduction of the size of government. I 0:12:19.679 --> 0:12:22.000 think this is a reminder and Democrats need to be 0:12:22.080 --> 0:12:24.120 very careful here at how they go after Elon Musk. 0:12:24.280 --> 0:12:26.720 I think Elon Musk is unpopular. What Elon Musk was 0:12:26.760 --> 0:12:30.840 doing was not unpopular. Right. This gets at to what 0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:34.280 I've argued is a competency issue for this administration. Their 0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:38.880 goals are aligned with the voters, their ability to implement 0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:41.880 their goals are not, you know, is sort of incompetent. Right. 0:12:41.880 --> 0:12:45.000 They've done a terrible job on tariffs. They've done a 0:12:45.080 --> 0:12:47.600 terrible job on how you would actually cut government. There 0:12:47.600 --> 0:12:49.800 were ways to do this that they could have had 0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:52.000 congressional buy in a lot sooner, and they didn't do it. 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:55.360 But the fact is the voters have noticed he got 0:12:55.360 --> 0:12:57.839 caught trying, and they're giving them credit for getting caught trying. 0:12:58.240 --> 0:13:01.120 But this is where you see the trouble spots where 0:13:01.160 --> 0:13:03.880 he's below that fifty three percent job eRating on specific 0:13:03.960 --> 0:13:07.400 issues in Texas, Trump is at fifty one on foreign policy, 0:13:07.520 --> 0:13:10.600 at forty nine on the economy, at forty five percent 0:13:10.640 --> 0:13:15.679 on tariffs. Okay, at and he's got a fifty one 0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:20.560 percent personal favorable rating, So I think it shows you 0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:24.520 what the warning signs are, right, And already voters, even 0:13:24.640 --> 0:13:28.720 in red Texas have decided he doesn't. He's not handling 0:13:28.720 --> 0:13:31.720 the economy well, and he's not handling tariffs well well. 0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:33.640 Tariffs and the economy to me are almost going to 0:13:33.679 --> 0:13:37.439 be conflated as one issue. This is a giant flashing 0:13:37.640 --> 0:13:42.720 red flag, red light, if you will, for Republicans, which 0:13:42.920 --> 0:13:48.600 probably does explain why the president keeps backing off these tariffs, right. 0:13:48.840 --> 0:13:51.520 And it's not just that he's shown the volatility in 0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:55.280 the bond markets bad for the economy, raises, mortgage rates, 0:13:55.360 --> 0:13:58.679 all those things. But then it's like, hey, buddy, people 0:13:58.679 --> 0:14:01.000 don't think you know what you're doing on the economy anymore. 0:14:01.280 --> 0:14:06.000 That was the singular reason voters chose the voters who 0:14:06.000 --> 0:14:09.119 were who were who weren't fans of him, but reluctantly 0:14:09.200 --> 0:14:13.160 voted for him. It was almost universally on the issue 0:14:13.280 --> 0:14:15.840 of the economy. One other note on the Texas poll 0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:18.160 in here on the Senate race, and by the way, 0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:21.239 a little request to my friends at Texas Southern University, 0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:24.920 which is they didn't do a three way matchup because 0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:26.520 what I really want to see is what is the 0:14:26.560 --> 0:14:29.040 strength of the corn voter when when Cornyn would be 0:14:29.040 --> 0:14:30.760 there and is an independent. I know he's not threatened 0:14:30.760 --> 0:14:32.400 as an independent, but if you really want to see 0:14:32.400 --> 0:14:35.920 the strength of the Republican brand in Paxton, the Democratic 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:39.800 brand and Colin all read and where the middle is right, 0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:42.400 who were the persuadable voters? If you asked a three 0:14:42.400 --> 0:14:46.800 way general election race for for for social science purposes 0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:50.200 to my professor friends of Texas State, Texas Southern, you 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:53.000 would get a better understanding of who the who the 0:14:53.040 --> 0:14:55.440 group of voters that are the most movable right, the 0:14:55.480 --> 0:14:57.720 group of voters that picked corn And when given the 0:14:57.760 --> 0:14:59.880 other two choices, I think will tell you who the 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:01.600 who the swing voters are. So I think it's a 0:15:01.800 --> 0:15:06.360 it's a missed opportunity to truly identify an easier way 0:15:06.360 --> 0:15:08.920 to entify. But what's interesting here John Cornyan has the 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:12.040 lowest favorable rating among Republicans than any of the other 0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:16.280 Republican candidates tested. He is the highest unfavorable rating among 0:15:16.320 --> 0:15:19.640 Republicans than any the only one that's over thirty percent unfavorable. 0:15:21.320 --> 0:15:25.320 Now Trump's endorsement, it would matter to seventy plus percent 0:15:25.440 --> 0:15:29.040 of primary voters. That's a big deal. I have a 0:15:29.080 --> 0:15:31.600 feeling Trump's going to endorse both Conan Impacston, and he's 0:15:31.600 --> 0:15:33.480 going to pull an air. You know. One of the 0:15:33.480 --> 0:15:36.320 things Trump does is that he is that is that 0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:39.000 if he if he is afraid of letting somebody down, 0:15:39.320 --> 0:15:41.800 he will then just endorse both candidates. He's done that 0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:44.720 in a handful of races. I suspect he will do 0:15:44.760 --> 0:15:48.280 that here. For what it's worth, I think it's fascinating 0:15:48.320 --> 0:15:51.280 that Congressman Wesley Hunt, when he's included in the race, 0:15:52.040 --> 0:15:55.560 he immediately is able to get fifteen percent. The fact is, 0:15:56.040 --> 0:15:58.920 I think Cornan and the question I have is, and 0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:00.440 it's going to get me to another poll here in 0:16:00.480 --> 0:16:04.360 a minute. Incumbency may be as big of a problem 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:09.320 for Cornin as not being maga enough is. And I 0:16:09.400 --> 0:16:13.760 think that, you know, I think being an incumbent, whether 0:16:13.800 --> 0:16:15.360 you're a D or an R, is going to be 0:16:15.360 --> 0:16:18.440 a negative to most voters in twenty twenty six. I 0:16:18.440 --> 0:16:21.320 think there's a real disillusionment with the with the political 0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:23.960 power in both parties. I mean, at the end of 0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:25.560 the day, you have a lot of voters who didn't 0:16:25.600 --> 0:16:27.120 like the fact that their choices were going to be 0:16:27.160 --> 0:16:30.040 Biden and Trump, and that was due to the lack 0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:32.640 of leadership in either party to do something about it. 0:16:33.080 --> 0:16:35.080 And I think there's going to be you know, there's 0:16:35.120 --> 0:16:39.920 going to be a lot of openness to alternative candidates 0:16:39.920 --> 0:16:43.000 to incumbents, whether that's in third party candidacies. And I'm 0:16:43.040 --> 0:16:44.960 going to tell you about a minute in Michigan or 0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:49.240 it's about it's about primaries. But the fact is John 0:16:49.280 --> 0:16:52.960 Cornyn's in deep trouble. If he can figure out how 0:16:52.960 --> 0:16:56.240 to win this primary, he's going to win reelection. But 0:16:56.440 --> 0:16:58.720 I don't know if he can win this primary. When 0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:01.480 you start to look at his fundaments, because he's not 0:17:01.640 --> 0:17:03.320 it's not going to be an even you know, even 0:17:03.320 --> 0:17:05.200 if he has it at best, he can hope for 0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:07.560 an even financial playing field. Now I will say this, 0:17:07.680 --> 0:17:10.520 It is worth noting that John corn hired Chris Losovita, 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:13.640 who is one of the architects of Donald Trump's successful 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:16.719 twenty twenty four reelection. And las Avita knows how to 0:17:16.760 --> 0:17:18.760 I've pointed this out before. He knows how to play ball, 0:17:18.800 --> 0:17:20.240 and he knows how to play ball in a primary 0:17:20.240 --> 0:17:25.239 when necessary, and he's a tough He's one of your 0:17:25.640 --> 0:17:29.560 tougher players on the playing field there, but Cornyn has 0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:32.879 an uphill battle. And you know, all of them in 0:17:32.960 --> 0:17:36.000 matchups with various Democrats, whether veter or a Roora, Colin Allred, 0:17:36.320 --> 0:17:38.760 or Joaquim Castro, those are the three Democrats they tested. 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:42.760 None of them lead any of the Republican nominees, but 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:45.000 all of them are within single digits. Even if Cornin's 0:17:45.000 --> 0:17:48.560 a nominee. Clearly Paxton is the weakest candidate. He tests 0:17:48.600 --> 0:17:50.840 the weakest. He only has a two point lead over all. 0:17:50.880 --> 0:17:55.440 Read So there's no doubt that the premier Republican primary 0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:56.720 in the country right now is going to be this 0:17:56.800 --> 0:17:59.280 Texas Senate primary. And let's just say, just as a 0:17:59.280 --> 0:18:01.800 political junk, I'm here for it. It's going to be 0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:04.200 a fabulous race. I can't wait. I'm going to be 0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:06.440 going down there in the fall to get my own 0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:08.760 flavor of that. But it's going to be great. Another 0:18:08.800 --> 0:18:10.520 poll that came out over the last twenty four hours 0:18:10.560 --> 0:18:13.199 is one in Michigan. My friends at the Detroit at 0:18:13.200 --> 0:18:16.280 the Chamber of Commerce put out their big pole going 0:18:16.320 --> 0:18:19.400 into mckinaw Island, which is their big political policy conference. 0:18:19.400 --> 0:18:22.919 It takes place up there on Mcina Island, which, by 0:18:22.960 --> 0:18:27.040 the way, is a fabulous the one of the probably 0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:34.480 one of the best best islands that isn't surrounded by 0:18:34.480 --> 0:18:38.320 saltwater that you can find anywhere in this hemisphere. It 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:41.040 is a fascinating place. But the whole Michigan political world 0:18:41.080 --> 0:18:45.040 is going to be there, and what they found is 0:18:45.320 --> 0:18:48.399 shocking strength, I think for Mike Duggan as an independent 0:18:48.480 --> 0:18:51.880 candidate in all of the matchups. So in the gubernatorial 0:18:51.960 --> 0:18:54.840 race there the mayor of Detroit is running. He's got 0:18:54.880 --> 0:18:57.960 high name ID in Metro Detroit, low name ID everywhere else, 0:18:58.520 --> 0:19:03.479 but as a baseline, in every matchup, he starts in 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:05.920 the low twenties. And it doesn't matter whether he's matched 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:09.399 up against Jocelyn Benson, who's the runaway front runner on 0:19:09.400 --> 0:19:12.760 the Democratic side, who's the current Secretary of State, or 0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:15.840 John James, who's a congressman who's the runaway frontrunner on 0:19:15.880 --> 0:19:18.960 the Republican side, whoever is matched up there, Dougan is 0:19:19.000 --> 0:19:22.000 sitting at twenty to twenty one percent. What's interesting, he's 0:19:22.000 --> 0:19:24.760 also the only candidate tested in this poll that had 0:19:24.800 --> 0:19:29.200 positive ratings among Democrats, positive ratings among independents and positive 0:19:29.240 --> 0:19:33.040 ratings among Republicans. Right, Jocelyn Benson had positive ratings among 0:19:33.320 --> 0:19:38.520 Democrats but not Republicans. James among Republicans but not Democrats. 0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:44.199 So I will just say this, Duggan starts out in 0:19:44.280 --> 0:19:48.440 a shockingly strong position. And again, in this idea of 0:19:48.480 --> 0:19:50.800 an anti incumbency place, you're going to have a sitting 0:19:50.800 --> 0:19:53.800 member of Congress who's running for governor on the Republican 0:19:53.840 --> 0:19:58.000 side and a sitting statewide officeholder on the other side. 0:19:58.200 --> 0:20:01.320 Him being able to sort of run again the establishments 0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:04.760 of both parties is sitting there, and already voters view 0:20:04.880 --> 0:20:08.240 him in a sort of less partisan way. They don't 0:20:08.240 --> 0:20:11.320 see him he's a former Democrat, yet he's not somehow 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:15.600 viewed more as a Democrat by Republicans. Everybody sees him 0:20:15.880 --> 0:20:18.960 more as an independent figure. The point is this dug 0:20:18.960 --> 0:20:21.840 and race is real, This three way race is real. 0:20:22.560 --> 0:20:26.480 Be paying attention to that, that's for sure. And then finally, 0:20:26.480 --> 0:20:29.600 another poll that I want to make note of in 0:20:29.720 --> 0:20:32.560 order to be dismissive of, and that is you may 0:20:32.560 --> 0:20:35.520 have seen some numbers about Lindsay Graham potentially in a 0:20:35.920 --> 0:20:41.200 closer than expected race. It was sort of a poll 0:20:41.240 --> 0:20:44.240 that was just released via press release only to sort 0:20:44.240 --> 0:20:47.399 of right wing media that wrote it up as if 0:20:47.440 --> 0:20:49.680 it was a serious poll. But it looked like there 0:20:49.760 --> 0:20:54.600 was some push language in there, in meaning like, you know, 0:20:54.920 --> 0:20:56.600 do you want to vote for Lindsay Graham, who's been 0:20:56.600 --> 0:21:00.440 an entrenched incumbent for twenty five years? Do you want 0:21:00.440 --> 0:21:04.919 to vote for this fresh businessman named Lynch over here? 0:21:05.240 --> 0:21:08.600 And even you know, sort of having where they clearly 0:21:08.960 --> 0:21:10.960 it appears that they sort of pushed the electorate a 0:21:11.000 --> 0:21:13.240 little bit or sort of created the as good of 0:21:13.240 --> 0:21:16.240 conditions as you can. Graham still leads in a primary. Yes, 0:21:16.240 --> 0:21:20.360 it's under fifty percent, but he already already has Trump's endorsement. 0:21:20.480 --> 0:21:24.280 So I don't buy that South Carolina poll number. I 0:21:24.320 --> 0:21:27.439 certainly want to see a more legitimate polling organization to 0:21:27.440 --> 0:21:29.879 come out with another set of numbers before I will 0:21:29.920 --> 0:21:33.600 buy into the idea that Lindsey Graham, who is you 0:21:33.640 --> 0:21:36.399 know in theory, has supposedly been vulnerable to a primary 0:21:36.440 --> 0:21:39.359 for the last twenty years, including I'm old enough to 0:21:39.400 --> 0:21:43.280 remember when a young woman named Nancy Mace planned to 0:21:43.280 --> 0:21:47.040 primary him just fresh out of the citadel. So I 0:21:47.520 --> 0:21:51.040 am I'll believe that when I see some more polling 0:21:51.160 --> 0:21:55.760 to see it. So with that, I want to take 0:21:55.760 --> 0:21:58.320 a break and when you come back, this fascinating conversation 0:21:58.760 --> 0:22:04.760 how Brazil became the incubator for the Russian illegal the 0:22:04.800 --> 0:22:09.199 next Americans may have been born in Brazil. It's a 0:22:09.200 --> 0:22:11.199 weird way of putting it. Huh. Just listen to the 0:22:11.240 --> 0:22:19.439 interview and you'll get it. Well. Joining me now our 0:22:19.480 --> 0:22:23.680 two reporters from the New York Times. It's Michael Schwartz 0:22:23.840 --> 0:22:27.000 and Jane Bradley. And if you're like me and we're 0:22:27.000 --> 0:22:31.159 a fan of the TV show, back when we watched 0:22:31.160 --> 0:22:33.840 things on channels, I know we don't do that anymore, 0:22:33.880 --> 0:22:36.520 but we used to watch things on channels. It was 0:22:36.560 --> 0:22:39.959 on Fax. It was called The Americans, and it was 0:22:40.359 --> 0:22:45.800 about this fictitious spy program where Russian said Soviet Union 0:22:45.840 --> 0:22:49.760 had infiltrated and had these sort of home grown spies 0:22:50.000 --> 0:22:54.680 and they so assimilated into American culture that no one 0:22:55.040 --> 0:22:57.720 saw what they were actually up to. It's made a 0:22:57.760 --> 0:22:59.879 lot of us that have watched that program very suspicious. 0:22:59.880 --> 0:23:02.800 For instance, of travel agencies, are they all just fronts? 0:23:02.920 --> 0:23:06.680 Since the Big Front organization, there was a travel agency well. 0:23:06.920 --> 0:23:08.919 In the New York Times earlier this month, there was 0:23:08.920 --> 0:23:12.240 a fascinating story by these two reporters, Michael and Jane, 0:23:13.119 --> 0:23:18.000 about a real life version of this, where it is 0:23:18.119 --> 0:23:23.240 Brazil that is still apparently an incubator, if you will, 0:23:23.840 --> 0:23:30.640 for this now Russian program of essentially growing spies, getting 0:23:30.720 --> 0:23:36.199 them alternative identifications, Brazil being in a tremendous place to 0:23:36.240 --> 0:23:37.560 do it, and it makes a lot of sense to 0:23:37.600 --> 0:23:40.199 me if you've ever spent any time in Rio. But 0:23:40.359 --> 0:23:43.960 the story reads like a real life like it's now, 0:23:44.040 --> 0:23:48.679 you know, the Americans twenty first century. Addition, So Michael 0:23:48.680 --> 0:23:51.320 and Jane, welcome to the podcast, and thanks for humoring 0:23:51.320 --> 0:23:51.600 me on. 0:23:51.560 --> 0:23:55.000 This, thanks for having us, Thanks tov. 0:23:55.480 --> 0:23:58.880 So look and you tell me which one who's who 0:23:58.960 --> 0:24:02.440 originally had this story. I know you've worked together. One 0:24:02.440 --> 0:24:04.200 of you worked one angle, one of you worked the other. 0:24:04.280 --> 0:24:07.880 But give me, give me the sort of origin story 0:24:09.200 --> 0:24:13.640 of your tip, the reporting, and what sort of got 0:24:13.680 --> 0:24:17.399 you to the point where you started unraveling this larger story, 0:24:17.560 --> 0:24:20.359 obviously with the help of some sources in the Brazilian 0:24:21.320 --> 0:24:23.119 with Brazilian federal investigators. 0:24:25.000 --> 0:24:26.720 Sure you want to tell them the story? 0:24:27.119 --> 0:24:28.359 It's your tip you tell us story. 0:24:30.480 --> 0:24:35.240 This story basically starts with the invasion of Ukraine by 0:24:35.320 --> 0:24:40.960 Russia and twenty two. I was covering that war, but 0:24:41.160 --> 0:24:45.440 at the same time I started noticing these reports of 0:24:45.560 --> 0:24:51.280 various arrests and discoveries of deep cover Russian spies all 0:24:51.280 --> 0:24:55.320 over the world, in Greece and Italy, some in Latin America. 0:24:55.640 --> 0:24:57.720 And so let me pause you there. So right after 0:24:57.760 --> 0:25:01.200 the invasion, countries all over the world world, we're double checking, Hey, 0:25:01.200 --> 0:25:03.159 do we have any Russian spies in our midst is 0:25:03.200 --> 0:25:04.080 that was? It? 0:25:04.119 --> 0:25:04.159 Was? 0:25:04.200 --> 0:25:07.160 It like almost like a global APB went out. 0:25:07.840 --> 0:25:10.399 Well, that's what That's what I wanted to know. We 0:25:10.400 --> 0:25:13.040 were you know, as often happens, we sort of get 0:25:13.080 --> 0:25:16.840 the information side of things and then want to dig 0:25:16.880 --> 0:25:21.400 deeper and find out what was going on here. So yeah, 0:25:21.480 --> 0:25:26.680 I said, you know, as as overtly states were banding together, 0:25:26.800 --> 0:25:33.439 banding together and imposing sanctions and cutting off a Russian 0:25:33.480 --> 0:25:37.800 access to their countries, mostly in the West, I wondered 0:25:37.800 --> 0:25:40.800 if there was sort of a covert spy war going on, 0:25:40.880 --> 0:25:43.119 where where spy services around the world We're going and 0:25:43.160 --> 0:25:47.919 trying to get uh, these Russian deep cover operatives that 0:25:47.960 --> 0:25:50.680 had stationed all over the world, and I started asking 0:25:50.680 --> 0:25:52.920 around about this and at some point, just the long 0:25:52.960 --> 0:25:55.399 story short on this and where the tip came from, 0:25:55.720 --> 0:25:58.359 one of my sources at one point came to me 0:25:58.400 --> 0:26:00.919 and said, oh, by the way, did you know that 0:26:00.960 --> 0:26:04.040 the Brazilians have uncovered a bunch I was operating there, 0:26:04.240 --> 0:26:06.240 and they're about to do this crazy thing. They're about 0:26:06.280 --> 0:26:09.760 to out them to the Interpol Service, which is this 0:26:09.800 --> 0:26:13.920 global policing network, and basically destroyed their career. And I said, 0:26:14.400 --> 0:26:16.320 I haven't heard about that, but I know somebody who 0:26:16.359 --> 0:26:18.520 knows a lot of people at Interpol, and so I 0:26:18.600 --> 0:26:23.240 turned to Jane, who helped me start digging into this problem. 0:26:23.320 --> 0:26:25.040 And there was an extraordinary moment at the start of 0:26:25.040 --> 0:26:28.439 this investigation. So it started off with four names we 0:26:28.480 --> 0:26:32.400 had that Mike had got from his source and as 0:26:32.400 --> 0:26:35.520 well as some interpolse sources. It did have some connections 0:26:35.560 --> 0:26:38.600 to the Brazilian police, so we asked around there as well, 0:26:38.680 --> 0:26:42.080 and we had this first meeting with a key Brazilian 0:26:42.119 --> 0:26:45.879 source on this and we came away from that meeting 0:26:46.240 --> 0:26:48.800 knowing there were nine names. And that was quite extraordinary 0:26:48.840 --> 0:26:51.000 because at the beginning we thought, okay, you know this 0:26:51.080 --> 0:26:51.720 is a pattern. 0:26:52.240 --> 0:26:53.040 Here's the name of four. 0:26:53.080 --> 0:26:55.480 But with nine, we decided this is a much bigger 0:26:55.520 --> 0:26:56.840 story than we first thought. 0:26:57.960 --> 0:27:00.119 So you're sitting there it's nine. First of all, well, 0:27:01.160 --> 0:27:04.360 color me a little bit surprised that the Brazilians decided 0:27:04.359 --> 0:27:09.320 to be so aggressive against the Russians. Brazilians in some 0:27:09.400 --> 0:27:14.600 ways are almost pride themselves of being unaligned, right. They 0:27:14.680 --> 0:27:16.960 love being able to say, hey, we've got good relations 0:27:17.000 --> 0:27:20.360 with the United States, with China, with Russia. They're part 0:27:20.400 --> 0:27:25.160 of the brick countries, right, the alternative economic engine, right, 0:27:25.480 --> 0:27:31.800 brick standing for Brazil, Russia, Indian and China. Were you surprised, Jane, 0:27:31.800 --> 0:27:34.120 at how aggressive the Brazilian FEDS were being on this. 0:27:36.119 --> 0:27:37.800 Yeah, I was completely surprised. 0:27:37.800 --> 0:27:42.439 So for context, like my Brazilian police sources or the 0:27:42.480 --> 0:27:46.240 introductions came from my interpoal reporting and reported on this election, 0:27:46.280 --> 0:27:46.639 and who. 0:27:46.480 --> 0:27:48.000 Would be the new leader of Interpol, And you. 0:27:48.000 --> 0:27:50.239 Had the Brits running in one corner and you had 0:27:50.240 --> 0:27:52.960 a Brazilian candidate Aldesuu Kuifa running in. 0:27:54.080 --> 0:27:54.840 And the corner. 0:27:54.920 --> 0:27:58.720 Though, like the whole center point of the Brazilians campaign 0:27:58.920 --> 0:28:04.320 was that, hey, we put politics aside, We're politically neutral, unbiased, 0:28:04.359 --> 0:28:07.560 like we will represent all countries as part of Interpol. 0:28:08.480 --> 0:28:11.679 So then, you know, when I went to the Brazilians. 0:28:11.119 --> 0:28:15.439 On after getting this tip about these spies, I didn't 0:28:15.480 --> 0:28:17.920 know whether they would talk to us honestly about it, 0:28:17.960 --> 0:28:21.800 because of the political sensitivities around speaking out about this 0:28:21.880 --> 0:28:27.320 kind of thing against Russia, and the police of sources. 0:28:27.400 --> 0:28:31.200 Intelligence sources we spoke to were just incredibly open from 0:28:31.240 --> 0:28:31.840 the beginning, and. 0:28:31.800 --> 0:28:33.600 I think it shocked me. 0:28:33.640 --> 0:28:38.040 But I think that speaks to just how honestly annoyed 0:28:38.040 --> 0:28:42.480 and pissed off they were, how Russia had exploited you know, Brazilians, 0:28:43.440 --> 0:28:46.600 Brazil's kind of political neutrality and the fact they tried 0:28:46.600 --> 0:28:49.680 not to take sides and have been relatively friendly, and 0:28:49.760 --> 0:28:54.200 yet here they were kind of exploiting Brazilian territory to 0:28:54.280 --> 0:28:57.360 train up build these curve identities for the spies before 0:28:57.400 --> 0:29:00.520 they went off elsewhere. And what was also interesting is 0:29:00.560 --> 0:29:03.240 when as we were chatting to the police officers, the 0:29:03.240 --> 0:29:07.480 Brazilian police officers, they all kind of explained, look, there 0:29:07.560 --> 0:29:11.840 is a split between the government in Brazil and the 0:29:11.880 --> 0:29:14.000 politics of Brazil and the police. We're here to do 0:29:14.040 --> 0:29:17.840 the police work, but others will be more concerned politics. 0:29:19.000 --> 0:29:22.200 So look, the conclusion you come from this is that 0:29:22.280 --> 0:29:26.520 Brazil is the main incubator, because that was what was 0:29:26.560 --> 0:29:28.560 amazing out of here. It wasn't this wasn't just about 0:29:28.560 --> 0:29:31.920 infiltrating Brazil. It was just Brazil was an easy place 0:29:31.960 --> 0:29:35.840 to create cover identities to then launch these folks everywhere. 0:29:35.880 --> 0:29:37.840 And you know when you said Brazil, I grew up 0:29:37.840 --> 0:29:39.680 in Miami, and I remember the first time I went 0:29:39.680 --> 0:29:43.920 to Rio, because you have this this phenomenon in Miami, 0:29:43.760 --> 0:29:47.200 which is you can't assume based on how somebody looks 0:29:47.200 --> 0:29:50.360 where they're from in Miami more so than in really 0:29:50.800 --> 0:29:53.600 until I went to Rio, right, which was another one 0:29:53.600 --> 0:29:56.640 of these, And you know when geographic locations matter, right, 0:29:56.680 --> 0:29:59.800 And this is a very international city. It is truly 0:29:59.840 --> 0:30:03.479 a melting pot city. Brazil's a melting pot country, just 0:30:03.560 --> 0:30:06.240 like South Florida is a melting pot area. And so 0:30:06.320 --> 0:30:08.360 then when you started, when I started putting together my 0:30:08.400 --> 0:30:11.320 own picture of this, you're like, actually, Brazil's a brilliant 0:30:11.360 --> 0:30:14.400 place to do this because you can take any Russian 0:30:15.320 --> 0:30:19.120 and sort of make a claim. Ah, they're sort of 0:30:19.120 --> 0:30:21.920 half this half half half. I mean in Brazil, you're 0:30:22.000 --> 0:30:25.800 a little bit of everything when it comes there, so 0:30:26.520 --> 0:30:30.160 just sort of culturally in the history of the of 0:30:30.240 --> 0:30:34.520 the of sort of civilization, civilized development of Brazil, it 0:30:34.640 --> 0:30:35.840 ended up being brilliant. 0:30:37.760 --> 0:30:40.720 And I think this is something you have to understand 0:30:40.720 --> 0:30:45.080 about the Russians, and in particular as regards this spy program, 0:30:45.080 --> 0:30:50.200 their legal spy program. They're planning for these things is meticulous. Sometimes, 0:30:50.920 --> 0:30:54.400 you know, the the operations themselves can be botched, and 0:30:54.480 --> 0:30:58.760 sometimes spectacularly. We all remember the poisoning of Sergei Scripall, 0:30:58.800 --> 0:31:03.800 where they had sort of left this highly toxic residue 0:31:03.840 --> 0:31:06.720 all over the place and killed somebody and really caused 0:31:06.760 --> 0:31:09.360 an incredible international incident, which, by the way, is probably 0:31:09.400 --> 0:31:12.960 one reason so many countries were able to so quickly 0:31:12.960 --> 0:31:16.760 spring into action after the invasion is because the groundwork 0:31:16.840 --> 0:31:21.719 was laid following the Scriptball poisoning in twenty eighteen. But 0:31:21.800 --> 0:31:25.480 we tend to focus on their spectacular failures, but the 0:31:25.520 --> 0:31:29.520 planning that these intelligence operatives put into this, and it's 0:31:29.520 --> 0:31:32.800 not just the operatives themselves, it's the whole embassy apparatus 0:31:33.240 --> 0:31:36.720 that goes into laying the groundwork for these people to 0:31:36.800 --> 0:31:40.160 operate it's incredibly meticulous and incredibly well thought out. 0:31:40.720 --> 0:31:43.560 Well, and that's the thing like this, you imply that 0:31:43.600 --> 0:31:47.360 this was decades in the making, not years, but decades. 0:31:47.560 --> 0:31:52.080 Explain well, that's one of the things that the Brazilian 0:31:52.120 --> 0:31:53.400 police are looking at. 0:31:53.480 --> 0:31:54.160 So they don't know. 0:31:54.200 --> 0:31:57.360 They don't as yet, but at the end, towards the 0:31:57.480 --> 0:32:01.560 end of our investigation, we checked in with our Brazilian 0:32:01.640 --> 0:32:06.120 sources and in April, they had this forensic analysis come 0:32:06.160 --> 0:32:09.400 back on the birth certificates of all nine Russian spies 0:32:09.400 --> 0:32:12.480 who'd been using Brazilian cover identities. They all had these 0:32:12.480 --> 0:32:16.480 Brazilian birth certificates, and they were shocked because they expected 0:32:16.520 --> 0:32:20.920 the results to show that these bersertificates had been adopted, 0:32:20.920 --> 0:32:23.920 they've been tampered with, that someone had come in in 0:32:24.000 --> 0:32:28.800 recent years and created these fake identities. But actually what 0:32:28.880 --> 0:32:32.040 the forensic analysis suggests was that there was no evidence 0:32:32.120 --> 0:32:34.520 of any tampering, Like the ink was normal, the paper 0:32:34.640 --> 0:32:37.160 was normal, like, there was none of the tampering the 0:32:37.160 --> 0:32:41.720 Brazilians expected to find because until that point they'd assumed 0:32:41.960 --> 0:32:45.720 they'd been working on the hypothesis that the Russians had 0:32:45.720 --> 0:32:48.840 managed to obtain these birth certificates through corrupt officials, like 0:32:49.760 --> 0:32:55.680 Brazil is decentralized, it's open, it's vulnerable to corruption, So 0:32:55.760 --> 0:32:58.760 that is what they'd expected to find. So now the 0:32:58.800 --> 0:33:02.120 focus of their investigation is how did the Russians do 0:33:02.160 --> 0:33:04.400 it and did they really plant these in the wake 0:33:04.440 --> 0:33:05.160 of the Cold War. 0:33:06.040 --> 0:33:08.120 Well, the other thing you imply in your piece was 0:33:08.120 --> 0:33:11.479 that you know it in your piece is how easy 0:33:11.520 --> 0:33:14.120 it is to actually get a birth certificate in Brazil. 0:33:14.280 --> 0:33:17.240 Explain that. I mean, when you the minute I read that, 0:33:17.360 --> 0:33:20.239 you're like, oh, how many other countries are like this? 0:33:20.560 --> 0:33:24.080 And is Brazil unique in this situation? Explain the birth 0:33:24.160 --> 0:33:25.360 certificate process. 0:33:25.920 --> 0:33:28.120 Well, I don't know if it's completely unique Brazil, but 0:33:28.160 --> 0:33:31.520 it's definitely unusual in that. So most countries, like the US, 0:33:31.640 --> 0:33:34.880 like the UK, to get a birth certificate, you need 0:33:35.000 --> 0:33:38.520 a signature, a witness there who's a doctor or a 0:33:38.560 --> 0:33:41.360 hospital to sign off someone from a hospital and off 0:33:41.400 --> 0:33:43.479 to say yes, this child was born here on this 0:33:43.600 --> 0:33:47.600 day under this name. In Brazil, mostsive certificates are done 0:33:47.600 --> 0:33:51.360 that way. But there is this kind of n niche exemption, 0:33:51.960 --> 0:33:55.840 kind of a loophole of you like that allows anyone 0:33:55.920 --> 0:33:57.720 to just present two witnesses they don't have to be 0:33:57.760 --> 0:34:00.000 a doctor or anything like that and just say, yeah, 0:34:00.320 --> 0:34:01.800 I saw this baby. 0:34:01.880 --> 0:34:04.840 Two random people. You could just bring a couple of people, 0:34:06.000 --> 0:34:09.719 throw them some rubles. Hey, you just need to swear 0:34:09.760 --> 0:34:12.120 in front of this official that you witnessed this birth. 0:34:12.719 --> 0:34:14.720 Yeah, and they probably don't even know what they're doing. 0:34:14.920 --> 0:34:17.800 That's what the Brazilian said. And the reason that exemption 0:34:17.920 --> 0:34:21.160 exists was to accommodate these rural parts of Brazil whether 0:34:21.320 --> 0:34:23.800 or no doctors, are no hospitals, and babies are routinely 0:34:23.840 --> 0:34:27.720 born without without any kind of medical support. 0:34:28.040 --> 0:34:29.480 But yeah, that's. 0:34:29.080 --> 0:34:31.879 One of the areas the I'm investigating is to try 0:34:31.880 --> 0:34:34.440 and find out was that why Brazil was targeted or 0:34:34.480 --> 0:34:36.680 was that one of the reasons why it made it 0:34:36.719 --> 0:34:37.440 a weak target. 0:34:37.960 --> 0:34:41.200 So your story, I assume, has probably triggered a lot 0:34:41.239 --> 0:34:43.759 of other countries to do some double takes, to do 0:34:43.880 --> 0:34:47.200 some deeper dives. What are you hearing? What kind of 0:34:47.760 --> 0:34:49.960 you know? Have you gotten any new tips since the 0:34:50.000 --> 0:34:50.520 peace ran? 0:34:51.680 --> 0:34:54.879 What are we allowed to talk about all of it? 0:34:54.960 --> 0:35:00.680 Come on, yes, yes, we have ex and we're looking 0:35:00.719 --> 0:35:01.200 into it. 0:35:01.600 --> 0:35:04.959 Status multiple countries, I would assume. 0:35:06.800 --> 0:35:11.600 A few, in particular in Latin America. It seemed that 0:35:12.200 --> 0:35:14.719 it seems that Latin America has been a target of 0:35:15.840 --> 0:35:19.000 of this type of program for the Russians for quite 0:35:19.040 --> 0:35:19.479 some time. 0:35:19.840 --> 0:35:21.480 Yeah, I got a tip for them. It's been going 0:35:21.480 --> 0:35:24.120 on for decades. It's been going on since the fifties. 0:35:24.200 --> 0:35:26.680 Like we've been fighting a cold We fought a cold 0:35:26.719 --> 0:35:29.480 war over this stuff in Latin America for quite some time. 0:35:29.560 --> 0:35:33.000 I mean, how when you were working on this story, 0:35:33.160 --> 0:35:35.680 did you work with any of the investigators that broke 0:35:35.800 --> 0:35:38.840 up the Ring of Americans? I want to say, was 0:35:38.840 --> 0:35:42.640 that about twenty ten, twenty eleven, if memory serves, And 0:35:42.760 --> 0:35:47.440 how similar was that program to this and were do 0:35:47.520 --> 0:35:49.839 we know were those folks incubated in America or were 0:35:49.840 --> 0:35:53.000 they actually incubated in other countries and then sent to America. 0:35:54.160 --> 0:35:56.000 So that program was a little bit different, and we 0:35:56.040 --> 0:35:59.840 didn't we hadn't talked to the investigators from that for 0:36:00.040 --> 0:36:02.040 this story, but it did serve as a reference for 0:36:02.160 --> 0:36:04.240 us doing our research, and it was a bit different. 0:36:04.400 --> 0:36:09.880 And you know those aside aside from a few of them, Uh, 0:36:10.160 --> 0:36:13.279 there there were a key Uh, there were a key 0:36:13.320 --> 0:36:17.480 couple who were based in Boston who indeed were incubated 0:36:17.480 --> 0:36:21.000 in fact in Canada and presented as Canadian citizens who 0:36:21.040 --> 0:36:23.279 then moved to Boston and really well were really well 0:36:23.280 --> 0:36:31.600 integrated into into the society in Boston. Uh. But for 0:36:31.760 --> 0:36:36.560 most of them are a significant number of those individuals 0:36:36.600 --> 0:36:38.719 from the twenty ten case in the United States, they 0:36:38.760 --> 0:36:42.000 were not posing as anybody. They were posing as Russians. 0:36:42.120 --> 0:36:44.719 They were they were. There was a there was one 0:36:44.760 --> 0:36:48.880 Russian student the most of Chapman was UH, and she 0:36:48.880 --> 0:36:50.680 didn't hide the fact that she was Russian, but she 0:36:50.920 --> 0:36:54.360 claimed that she was in the United States doing business. 0:36:54.600 --> 0:36:57.080 And they were hiding the fact that they were spies, 0:36:57.080 --> 0:36:58.759 of course, but they weren't hiding the fact that they 0:36:58.760 --> 0:37:01.360 were Russians. And that's why this case in Brazil was 0:37:01.360 --> 0:37:04.200 so different, because every one of the individuals that we 0:37:04.600 --> 0:37:08.600 tracked down, their goal would come Brazilian. They wanted to 0:37:09.040 --> 0:37:15.080 shed their Russian identities and create an entire Brazilian backstory. 0:37:15.160 --> 0:37:18.120 And the whole goal was not to infiltrate Brazil per se. 0:37:18.280 --> 0:37:20.520 It was then they were going to get. The assumption 0:37:20.680 --> 0:37:23.640 was they'd be transferred to a more useful country, correct, And. 0:37:23.560 --> 0:37:25.960 Several of them were transferred to countries. You know, one 0:37:26.000 --> 0:37:29.920 of them was posing as a researcher, a Brazilian researcher 0:37:30.960 --> 0:37:35.200 in the Norwegian Arctic. Another one went to the Middle East, 0:37:35.719 --> 0:37:38.280 some others went to Portugal, and so yeah, their goal 0:37:38.520 --> 0:37:41.400 was to then move on to the rest of the 0:37:41.440 --> 0:37:47.800 world and pose as Brazilians while conducting espionage for Russia. 0:37:47.840 --> 0:37:49.480 And one made it to the United States, as we 0:37:49.520 --> 0:37:51.680 pointed out in the article, and even gone to Johns 0:37:51.680 --> 0:37:55.040 Hopkins University and was preparing to This is probably the 0:37:55.080 --> 0:38:01.520 more successful case that of City Chef and was on 0:38:01.560 --> 0:38:05.840 the verge of starting an internship at the Hague at 0:38:05.840 --> 0:38:08.920 the International Criminal Court, which had been incredible because it 0:38:08.960 --> 0:38:12.040 was around the time that the court was starting to 0:38:12.440 --> 0:38:16.880 open human rights war crimes cases against Russia for the 0:38:16.880 --> 0:38:17.799 war in Ukraine. 0:38:18.400 --> 0:38:23.160 Did the Brazilian officials get any of these folks? They 0:38:23.200 --> 0:38:25.440 were they successful in arresting any of these folks or 0:38:25.440 --> 0:38:26.600 did they all flee the country? 0:38:27.320 --> 0:38:29.719 One of them they got, so gay check us off. 0:38:30.239 --> 0:38:32.040 He is the only one they managed to get. And 0:38:32.080 --> 0:38:35.879 he was the most successful at the spies probably when 0:38:35.880 --> 0:38:36.879 they arrested him. 0:38:38.239 --> 0:38:39.719 What makes it? What what do you when you say 0:38:39.920 --> 0:38:41.840 the most successful of the spies just because he was 0:38:41.880 --> 0:38:45.640 about to be launched to America, to the Hague. 0:38:45.760 --> 0:38:46.640 Yes, exactly. 0:38:46.719 --> 0:38:51.080 So any got a master's degree from John Hobbins University posing. 0:38:50.840 --> 0:38:53.120 As a Brazilian and he had completed like on as 0:38:53.360 --> 0:38:55.800 these the covers spent about like seven to eight years 0:38:55.840 --> 0:38:59.000 building their cover identities before you know, being dispatched as 0:38:59.000 --> 0:39:02.640 by use where and Sagay had completed he'd been there 0:39:02.680 --> 0:39:05.800 about eight years right where some of the other spies 0:39:05.800 --> 0:39:07.680 seemed to have been interrupted when they were still in 0:39:07.680 --> 0:39:10.960 the process of building their identities, like a couple in Portugal, 0:39:11.040 --> 0:39:14.080 like they had Brazilian birth certificates but hadn't yet got 0:39:14.080 --> 0:39:17.720 passports or they were trying to get citizenship elsewhere, when suddenly, 0:39:17.760 --> 0:39:20.680 you know, these global intelligence agencies and the Brazilians kind 0:39:20.719 --> 0:39:22.560 of jumped on them. 0:39:22.600 --> 0:39:24.160 You may think there's a weird question, but there's a 0:39:24.160 --> 0:39:26.080 part of me like did he do his own homework 0:39:26.080 --> 0:39:30.000 at Johns Hopkins? Was there a team of FSB operatives 0:39:30.000 --> 0:39:32.719 that like did his thesis for him? Or was he 0:39:32.800 --> 0:39:35.319 the did he do his own academic work? I mean, 0:39:35.400 --> 0:39:37.520 I know that seems like a silly question, but you're 0:39:37.560 --> 0:39:41.239 just curious as to how how much did they sell it? 0:39:41.360 --> 0:39:43.480 You know, did they get help with the work or 0:39:43.480 --> 0:39:45.840 do they actually do the academics themselves. 0:39:46.440 --> 0:39:48.640 I mean, I you know, we didn't. We didn't spend 0:39:48.640 --> 0:39:51.360 a lot of time on this case in the story, 0:39:51.480 --> 0:39:55.000 but because because some of the details are pretty well known. 0:39:55.200 --> 0:39:58.000 But he did use his position as a student to 0:39:58.000 --> 0:40:01.960 get close to academics who who were close to you know, 0:40:02.000 --> 0:40:06.560 the Johns Hopkins University is very uh, the professors that 0:40:06.640 --> 0:40:09.120 are very tight with the Washington establishment. So he did 0:40:09.239 --> 0:40:12.279 use his contacts. I can't remember off the top of 0:40:12.600 --> 0:40:15.520 my head all of the people he was uh accused 0:40:15.520 --> 0:40:17.800 of buddying up to, But he did use his positions 0:40:17.840 --> 0:40:20.880 as a student to get close to people in the 0:40:20.920 --> 0:40:26.640 government and government adjacent academics. Whether or not he did. 0:40:28.080 --> 0:40:29.600 The thing, that's somewhat str. 0:40:29.880 --> 0:40:31.680 And No, I know, that's it. 0:40:32.040 --> 0:40:34.120 Like these are the questions. I hope we get one 0:40:34.160 --> 0:40:36.680 that like will confess one day, you know, tell us 0:40:36.719 --> 0:40:40.920 all about the program. I mean, have serving I know 0:40:41.120 --> 0:40:44.919 there has there been Has any investigative agency actually gotten 0:40:44.920 --> 0:40:47.280 any of these folks to talk or are they almost 0:40:47.280 --> 0:40:52.840 always like I believe we've traded some of these folks 0:40:52.880 --> 0:40:56.319 back to the Russians as they've kidnapped Americans, so we 0:40:57.040 --> 0:40:59.120 you know, I'm guessing we haven't broke these people. 0:40:59.360 --> 0:41:03.000 I don't think think that they would expect a very 0:41:03.000 --> 0:41:06.320 warm welcome back in Moscow should they eventually be traded. 0:41:06.440 --> 0:41:09.440 If they were to spill a bunch of information because. 0:41:09.160 --> 0:41:11.319 They got caught, well there's that right, if they were 0:41:11.320 --> 0:41:15.960 spelling information. But did they automatically Are they automatically in 0:41:16.040 --> 0:41:17.400 trouble just for getting caught. 0:41:19.239 --> 0:41:21.760 We don't know of any example of anyone being punished 0:41:22.239 --> 0:41:25.920 upon going back, I mean publicly anyway, we know that 0:41:26.040 --> 0:41:29.640 you know, Putin, if you if we're talking about the 0:41:29.680 --> 0:41:34.560 trade that occurred last August, that Evan Gershkovich, the Wall 0:41:34.600 --> 0:41:39.960 Street General border two deep cover legals that we're posing 0:41:40.000 --> 0:41:44.520 as Argentinians who are rested in Slovenia. We're part of 0:41:44.600 --> 0:41:48.080 that swap. And you know, Putin greeted them on the 0:41:48.400 --> 0:41:51.719 tarmac and gave one of the bouquet of flowers, and 0:41:51.760 --> 0:41:56.279 they've been the sort of subject of glowing coverage in 0:41:56.280 --> 0:41:59.200 the Russian media. So you know what happens behind closed doors, 0:41:59.280 --> 0:42:02.200 got you know, got only knows. But publicly anyway, these 0:42:02.239 --> 0:42:04.840 people are really praised and sort of you know, presented 0:42:04.880 --> 0:42:06.400 as heroes when they get back to Russia. 0:42:07.520 --> 0:42:09.640 One of the most interestant things for me on this 0:42:09.760 --> 0:42:13.279 investigation is like, like Michael said, like these spies are 0:42:13.440 --> 0:42:17.000 Putin's elite spies as premiere, like the pride and joy 0:42:17.160 --> 0:42:20.040 of Russia, and he has this kind of romantic idea 0:42:20.160 --> 0:42:23.600 around about them. They are held up as like, you know, 0:42:24.200 --> 0:42:26.640 these kind of heroes, if you like, and they're promised 0:42:27.560 --> 0:42:29.920 they when they sign up this thing that's kind of 0:42:30.000 --> 0:42:32.760 exciting life where you're going to be working abroad, serving 0:42:32.840 --> 0:42:35.920 Mother Russia. But as part of our investigation, we kind 0:42:35.920 --> 0:42:40.400 of got hold of some texts between a couple of 0:42:40.480 --> 0:42:44.560 the spies, some messages from between certainly check us off 0:42:44.600 --> 0:42:48.080 and a handler, and in particular these texts between two spies, 0:42:49.680 --> 0:42:55.640 a guy called Schmirov and his Russian wife also had 0:42:55.680 --> 0:42:57.919 a Brazilian girlfriend who didn't know about the Russian wife. 0:42:58.719 --> 0:43:01.359 That was an amazing part. So here they were both 0:43:01.440 --> 0:43:04.480 married couples doing their own thing, right, like you know, 0:43:04.840 --> 0:43:07.359 very much right. I felt like a plot line out 0:43:07.400 --> 0:43:08.120 of the Americans. 0:43:08.760 --> 0:43:11.080 It did, It did, And what these tech show I 0:43:11.120 --> 0:43:14.000 think is so interesting because you've gotten this, you know, 0:43:14.160 --> 0:43:16.560 on the outside there's this idea of this glamorous life 0:43:16.640 --> 0:43:19.600 of a spy that's you know, held up higher regard 0:43:20.000 --> 0:43:22.719 and actually the tech show that's really personal and often 0:43:22.760 --> 0:43:27.680 frustrating side not only but also maintaining a long distance relationship. 0:43:28.400 --> 0:43:33.319 These texts basically show like Artiam complaining about his lot, 0:43:33.400 --> 0:43:35.480 really about not being where he wanted to be in 0:43:35.520 --> 0:43:37.200 life by his middle thirtieth year. 0:43:37.280 --> 0:43:40.399 You know, no, no, no relationship, not where he wants 0:43:40.440 --> 0:43:40.560 to be. 0:43:40.920 --> 0:43:44.960 And millennials are millennial, right, no matter where what they're doing. 0:43:45.040 --> 0:43:47.959 No, I'm just but his wife, you know, his wife. 0:43:47.960 --> 0:43:48.600 I'm with his wife. 0:43:48.680 --> 0:43:51.520 She basically tells him to get a grip and says, look, 0:43:51.600 --> 0:43:53.719 this is a life life we've chosen. If you wanted 0:43:53.760 --> 0:43:56.360 a normal family life, this is the life for you. 0:43:57.280 --> 0:44:00.200 She does kind of say, like, yes, this life is 0:44:00.320 --> 0:44:03.320 not as we were told. They're basically tricking people into it, 0:44:03.480 --> 0:44:06.800 and it's bad. But we found that a really interesting 0:44:07.200 --> 0:44:10.520 kind of contrasting image to what's kind of publicly out 0:44:10.560 --> 0:44:12.880 there about the life of these deepcovers. 0:44:12.760 --> 0:44:15.239 Wild to hear to at least see a bunch of 0:44:15.400 --> 0:44:17.400 spies bitching about their employder. 0:44:17.640 --> 0:44:20.799 Right, No, it's kind of actually it's actually reassuring. Right, 0:44:20.880 --> 0:44:23.880 You're just like, okay, it's it's a job, right, like 0:44:24.400 --> 0:44:26.400 you know, it's a job just like any other. You know, 0:44:26.960 --> 0:44:29.200 you're gonna have you have a We all have a boss, right, 0:44:29.280 --> 0:44:31.640 that's always the joke. Well, we are to report to somebody. 0:44:32.280 --> 0:44:35.160 We all have expenses. We can't get approved. These messages 0:44:36.280 --> 0:44:39.480 checkers off to his handler. He's asking for money for 0:44:39.719 --> 0:44:42.759 to buy an apartment, and he's complaining about basically having 0:44:42.800 --> 0:44:45.479 to stay with a friend of his whose wife isn't happy. 0:44:46.160 --> 0:44:48.360 Is he paid attention to how much this war with 0:44:48.520 --> 0:44:51.080 ukrate's costing. I mean, the Russian coffer is not doing 0:44:51.160 --> 0:44:52.160 so well, right. 0:44:52.280 --> 0:44:54.560 Yeah, well that's why that's why they wanted to give 0:44:54.640 --> 0:44:55.880 him only the cheapest apartment. 0:44:56.360 --> 0:45:00.640 Right. You got to be careful you treat your right. 0:45:01.719 --> 0:45:04.160 So look, one of the things that I think is 0:45:05.920 --> 0:45:08.680 one of the odder ways that we cover espionage, and 0:45:08.800 --> 0:45:13.279 I say we the collective we is we're always very 0:45:13.440 --> 0:45:16.440 like shocked in g whiz about what other countries do. 0:45:17.400 --> 0:45:19.239 And then there's like no mention of what we do. 0:45:20.400 --> 0:45:24.520 I you know, there's you know, do we do this? 0:45:25.360 --> 0:45:27.400 Do we incubate in other countries? 0:45:27.920 --> 0:45:28.080 You know? 0:45:28.160 --> 0:45:31.120 In some ways America the melting pot. We're there's no 0:45:31.360 --> 0:45:36.799 better place to recruit potential spies for infiltration into other 0:45:36.880 --> 0:45:38.759 countries than right here in the good old US of 0:45:39.239 --> 0:45:43.800 us of A. You know, I I think we'd be 0:45:43.920 --> 0:45:46.440 naive to assume we don't do this. But are we 0:45:46.520 --> 0:45:49.000 as sophisticated about it or as obsessed with it as 0:45:49.000 --> 0:45:49.600 the Russians? 0:45:51.080 --> 0:45:53.440 I think I think, you know, one way to think 0:45:53.440 --> 0:45:55.560 about this as sort of an HR issue. 0:45:57.520 --> 0:46:00.120 I just love that you just said that sentence. You 0:46:00.280 --> 0:46:02.320 one way to look at this is like an HR issue. 0:46:02.719 --> 0:46:06.320 I also wait to see where this is going, because 0:46:06.360 --> 0:46:09.200 that's where I was going an HR issue. But anyway, 0:46:09.320 --> 0:46:10.920 go tell us about healthcare benefit. 0:46:11.480 --> 0:46:13.000 It kind of comes down to who gets to be 0:46:13.120 --> 0:46:15.800 called what? Right in Russia, you know the it's the 0:46:15.920 --> 0:46:21.320 officers who are the ones that are infiltrating these countries 0:46:21.480 --> 0:46:24.520 and shedding their identities and trying to lend in with 0:46:24.600 --> 0:46:29.680 the local population. Perhaps you know the CIA, I six, 0:46:29.920 --> 0:46:33.000 they do some of this, but it's really hard to 0:46:33.120 --> 0:46:38.440 become a nationality that you didn't grow up in. And 0:46:38.840 --> 0:46:41.719 rather than spend the time, energy and resources doing that 0:46:42.040 --> 0:46:45.640 and using their trained officers to do that they go 0:46:46.160 --> 0:46:52.440 out and find what are called agents in the intelligence parlance. 0:46:52.520 --> 0:46:55.480 And these are going to be locals who know the customs, 0:46:55.520 --> 0:46:56.520 who speak the language. 0:46:56.560 --> 0:46:58.839 You're saying, we're more likely to use a double agent. 0:46:59.560 --> 0:47:04.759 Yeah, they would be. There's some there's confusion about the 0:47:04.840 --> 0:47:07.239 term double agent, a double a hr again about this 0:47:07.480 --> 0:47:10.759 working both sides. The agent is just this, just the 0:47:10.880 --> 0:47:15.160 guy a CIA officer uses to get intelligence. They do 0:47:15.239 --> 0:47:15.600 the ground. 0:47:15.880 --> 0:47:18.480 You and I might call them sources. Yeah, you might 0:47:19.280 --> 0:47:21.680 as journalists, right, you just say just a source guy 0:47:21.800 --> 0:47:22.200 I talked to. 0:47:23.239 --> 0:47:26.239 Yeah, he's he's our guy in the Foreign Ministry who 0:47:26.320 --> 0:47:28.360 sits in on a meeting that I want to know about, 0:47:28.800 --> 0:47:31.360 and you know, we meet afterwards and he tells me 0:47:31.400 --> 0:47:33.960 about it. And I may be posing as like an 0:47:34.000 --> 0:47:37.960 American businessman in Angola, you know, you know, you know, 0:47:38.080 --> 0:47:40.720 doing whatever I'm doing, But really I'm a CIA officer 0:47:41.280 --> 0:47:44.440 meeting with you know, some some you know, uh and 0:47:44.600 --> 0:47:47.880 goal and official in the Foreign Ministry to get information 0:47:48.000 --> 0:47:50.000 about what you know about the Russians they're meeting with, 0:47:50.120 --> 0:47:55.759 for instance. Uh, it's it's uh, you know my my, 0:47:56.080 --> 0:48:00.560 My Western intelligence sources assure me they don't have budgets 0:48:00.640 --> 0:48:09.120 to devote to the kind of intensive training and time 0:48:09.239 --> 0:48:12.879 and resources that are required to actually do the things 0:48:12.920 --> 0:48:15.360 that the Russian illegals do, and they would say that 0:48:15.520 --> 0:48:17.160 a lot of that is just counterproductive. 0:48:18.440 --> 0:48:20.759 Do we think this Russian illegal program is only still 0:48:20.800 --> 0:48:23.560 alive because it's because Putin's in charge of that country 0:48:23.600 --> 0:48:26.640 And there's sort of a romantics He's romanticizes it because 0:48:27.280 --> 0:48:30.880 in this day and age of communication, of technology, of frankly, 0:48:31.000 --> 0:48:34.000 it's impossible to hide all right, right, you know, every 0:48:34.120 --> 0:48:38.200 place is frankly under surveillance, whether your country is free 0:48:38.280 --> 0:48:39.880 or less free. However you want to look at it, 0:48:41.560 --> 0:48:43.760 that this really is just sort of almost like Putin 0:48:43.880 --> 0:48:45.279 just loves this and he keeps it going. 0:48:46.480 --> 0:48:48.359 I think that's part of it. I think I really 0:48:48.480 --> 0:48:52.480 do think that that Putin really and he's spoken openly 0:48:52.920 --> 0:48:56.200 about this. You know, Putin loves these spies. They are 0:48:56.280 --> 0:48:58.759 to him kind of the patriot he is. 0:48:58.880 --> 0:49:01.200 Right, you are? I mean, look, I mean, you know, 0:49:01.400 --> 0:49:03.960 I love me a good political reporter that started covering 0:49:04.400 --> 0:49:06.520 house races. Why well that's what I started to do, 0:49:06.680 --> 0:49:09.560 right in many ways, you you know, why does Donald 0:49:09.600 --> 0:49:12.840 Trump love other fellow real estate developers, right, he hires 0:49:12.880 --> 0:49:16.360 them as envoys. Right. It's actually not a it's actually 0:49:16.440 --> 0:49:20.719 a normal in some ways, a normal behavior that he 0:49:20.800 --> 0:49:23.160 wants to lionize what he believed he did. 0:49:24.280 --> 0:49:27.400 Even more than that, these are the people he wanted 0:49:27.560 --> 0:49:31.000 to become and and didn't. He didn't quite measure up. 0:49:31.160 --> 0:49:34.040 Was it good enough as an intelligence officer, And it's 0:49:34.120 --> 0:49:37.200 sort of the people he idea. It's I think he 0:49:37.360 --> 0:49:40.680 got into intelligence, if you read his biographies, he got 0:49:40.719 --> 0:49:43.120 into intelligence work kind of wanting to become one of 0:49:43.160 --> 0:49:45.560 these people, and he just sort of never measured up. 0:49:47.040 --> 0:49:49.920 But he he lionizes them, and I think that's one 0:49:50.000 --> 0:49:54.000 reason it keeps going though those some sources of mine 0:49:54.040 --> 0:49:58.520 have pushed back now, particularly since the Ukraine War started, 0:49:58.640 --> 0:50:01.040 and the origins of the legals program go back to 0:50:01.120 --> 0:50:03.279 the Soviet Union, the very start of the Soviet Union. 0:50:03.400 --> 0:50:05.840 Well, in fact, in this piece you imply it's possible 0:50:06.480 --> 0:50:09.279 that the seeds of this Brazilian program goes back to 0:50:09.360 --> 0:50:09.840 the Cold. 0:50:09.680 --> 0:50:13.479 War, right, right, I mean the entire the entire legals 0:50:13.560 --> 0:50:15.799 program goes back to this time when the Soviet Union 0:50:15.840 --> 0:50:19.480 didn't have many representations, They didn't countries, didn't recognize the 0:50:19.560 --> 0:50:22.759 Soviet Union in the years right it was founded, and. 0:50:22.800 --> 0:50:25.000 They didn't have embassies and councilates to just sort of 0:50:25.040 --> 0:50:29.279 house people, right, yeah, in infiltry countries, right, And you're right. 0:50:29.320 --> 0:50:33.640 One of the extraordinary things that we haven't quite established yet, 0:50:33.680 --> 0:50:35.560 but that we're looking into in the Brazilian government is 0:50:35.600 --> 0:50:38.360 looking into, is that these birth certificates that are the 0:50:38.440 --> 0:50:41.759 lynchpin of the identities that these buys have adopted in 0:50:41.840 --> 0:50:45.520 Brazil were in fact planted in the waning days of 0:50:45.600 --> 0:50:48.160 the Soviet Union. And this is because the forensic analysis 0:50:48.200 --> 0:50:50.400 shows that the ink and the paper used in these 0:50:50.440 --> 0:50:54.160 birth certificates way back right matches matches the birth certificates 0:50:54.200 --> 0:50:57.840 that were put into these files in the eighties. And 0:50:57.920 --> 0:51:02.920 when you talk to experts on Soviet espionage, very few 0:51:02.960 --> 0:51:05.440 of them should I should say I have heard of 0:51:05.480 --> 0:51:09.040 anything like this happening, but they do say that it 0:51:09.120 --> 0:51:16.680 really fits with the modus operendi, particularly of the Soviet 0:51:16.760 --> 0:51:20.520 KGB during the Cold War. They would do this type 0:51:20.560 --> 0:51:23.560 of long term planning as a way essentially think of 0:51:23.840 --> 0:51:25.560 what was going on in the late nineteen eighties. Their 0:51:25.680 --> 0:51:27.880 entire world was crumpled, an entire edifice upon which the 0:51:27.960 --> 0:51:31.160 KGB was built. This confrontation with the West was coming 0:51:31.200 --> 0:51:34.080 to an end, and it's not hard to imagine an 0:51:34.239 --> 0:51:37.440 enterprising KGB officer to saying, look, I'm going to plant 0:51:37.480 --> 0:51:40.879 the seeds for future conflict. This is not going to last. 0:51:41.360 --> 0:51:44.320 This experiment with democracy that we're doing. I'm going to 0:51:44.400 --> 0:51:47.200 have the seeds so that just in case my colleagues 0:51:47.280 --> 0:51:49.960 thirty forty years in the future can come back and have. 0:51:50.920 --> 0:51:55.080 It's extraordinary if it was done right, the chances you 0:51:55.160 --> 0:51:56.080 think you can prove. 0:51:55.920 --> 0:52:00.480 That that's what the PASILI is right now, that's what 0:52:00.560 --> 0:52:03.719 they're trying to do. But yeah, it's extraordinary, and it 0:52:03.760 --> 0:52:06.919 would make it one of the most most extraordinary long 0:52:07.440 --> 0:52:10.959 forward planning esperonage operations and in modern history. 0:52:11.000 --> 0:52:14.680 I think I am curious of the Brazilian governments. You 0:52:14.800 --> 0:52:17.760 said that there was sort of a sort of Brazilian police, 0:52:18.400 --> 0:52:20.520 right who sort of you know, strike me. It's no 0:52:20.640 --> 0:52:22.759 different than running into an FBI guy who goes, God 0:52:22.840 --> 0:52:25.440 damn it. It's right and wrong. I don't care who's 0:52:25.480 --> 0:52:28.400 in charge of me. Politically, this is wrong. I'm pursuing 0:52:28.440 --> 0:52:31.839 it versus But I also look at this and if 0:52:31.880 --> 0:52:34.520 you're you know, if you're a Brazilian high up in 0:52:34.560 --> 0:52:38.640 Brazilian government, you have to realize that the world does 0:52:38.800 --> 0:52:41.360 think that it's easy to do shady things in Brazil. 0:52:42.239 --> 0:52:45.479 And you know that isn't a reputation as it tries 0:52:45.560 --> 0:52:48.320 to move from third world to first world it wants 0:52:48.400 --> 0:52:52.719 to have. So I wonder if they're actually extra motivated 0:52:52.840 --> 0:52:53.800 to get to the bottom of this. 0:52:54.960 --> 0:52:56.080 Yeah, it's a good question. 0:52:56.480 --> 0:53:01.480 And look, the police officers investigators who dug into this 0:53:01.719 --> 0:53:05.000 the same as the same unit account intelligence unit the 0:53:05.080 --> 0:53:08.600 federal police who investigated Bolscenaro over. 0:53:08.520 --> 0:53:09.360 The alleged coups. 0:53:09.400 --> 0:53:13.040 So they've got history of putting aside politics and focusing on. 0:53:13.280 --> 0:53:15.560 And they also went after Lula too, Right, isn't this 0:53:15.680 --> 0:53:18.440 the same? I mean, look, the rule of law. I've 0:53:18.480 --> 0:53:23.000 had some political science colleagues of mine say, you know, hey, 0:53:23.239 --> 0:53:26.239 you know, Brazil's rule of law is sturdier than we 0:53:26.360 --> 0:53:27.080 give it credit for. 0:53:28.480 --> 0:53:30.400 I think that I think that is born out in 0:53:30.440 --> 0:53:33.160 this case. I mean it's telling we went around to 0:53:34.000 --> 0:53:36.719 sort of the political leadership in the country before this 0:53:36.960 --> 0:53:39.800 article came out, seeking comment, and this is just the 0:53:39.920 --> 0:53:42.800 time when the president Lula is in Moscow for the 0:53:43.000 --> 0:53:47.920 eightieth anniversary of the of the end of World War Two, for. 0:53:48.040 --> 0:53:50.840 Putin's sending Trump a message at hey, I'm not afraid 0:53:50.840 --> 0:53:52.680 of hanging out with him exactly. 0:53:52.840 --> 0:53:55.840 And and I don't think it's any surprise that nobody 0:53:56.239 --> 0:53:58.200 sort of on the political side got back to us 0:54:00.640 --> 0:54:03.359 all told by visuals and nobody's gonna nobody's gonna touch 0:54:03.400 --> 0:54:08.320 this right now while the president is in Moscow. But nobody, 0:54:08.560 --> 0:54:11.480 as far as we're told, interfered in this investigation either. 0:54:11.920 --> 0:54:14.640 No, And that's one point I wanted to make as well, like, yes, 0:54:15.280 --> 0:54:19.399 you know, the fact that investigation you know, did, did 0:54:19.600 --> 0:54:22.279 go ahead and was so successful. 0:54:22.400 --> 0:54:24.920 And I think the Brazilians know that. Okay, they have 0:54:25.040 --> 0:54:26.200 this reputation as being a. 0:54:26.239 --> 0:54:29.520 Corrupt country, and here you've got this pretty extraordinary team 0:54:29.600 --> 0:54:35.680 of cops investigating pretty you know, pretty fearlessly a case 0:54:35.719 --> 0:54:39.440 of you know, basically Russia into exploiting Brazil. And you 0:54:39.640 --> 0:54:43.640 have to have some level of buy in or cooperation 0:54:43.800 --> 0:54:46.240 or at least not obstruction, I think, from a political 0:54:46.320 --> 0:54:47.160 level to be able to. 0:54:47.560 --> 0:54:48.520 Do what they've done. 0:54:49.200 --> 0:54:50.759 Look, I don't know if you guys want to delve 0:54:50.800 --> 0:54:52.840 into this or go make David Sayger, come on and 0:54:52.880 --> 0:54:56.160 answer this question. But I'm half kidding, but I look 0:54:56.200 --> 0:54:59.239 at this program in Brazil and to me, I just say, 0:54:59.719 --> 0:55:03.399 once again an American failure in Latin America, that our 0:55:04.120 --> 0:55:08.160 inability to be full partners with Latin American countries and 0:55:08.640 --> 0:55:11.399 full trading partners and sort of you know, having better 0:55:11.480 --> 0:55:14.239 relations that in some ways we open ourselves up to 0:55:15.040 --> 0:55:18.279 not so friendly actors to take advantage of our sort 0:55:18.320 --> 0:55:21.359 of when I say, are the United States the United States? 0:55:21.440 --> 0:55:23.960 Sort of? I don't want to say we were dismissive 0:55:24.000 --> 0:55:26.279 of Latin America, but we're just never as engaged in 0:55:26.360 --> 0:55:30.200 Latin America as you think we should be. And and 0:55:31.040 --> 0:55:33.520 you do you sense any of that? And again I'm 0:55:33.560 --> 0:55:36.360 not asking you guys to be, you know, foreign policy 0:55:36.440 --> 0:55:40.840 experts here, but you're you're both covering international stories like this. 0:55:42.880 --> 0:55:45.680 Is this far fetched to me? Linking this or you know, 0:55:45.840 --> 0:55:48.520 if we had better relationship with Brazil, would we have 0:55:48.600 --> 0:55:49.600 seen this kind of behavior? 0:55:50.640 --> 0:55:54.560 I mean, I think that could be. But we'll remind 0:55:54.640 --> 0:55:57.719 you that this whole investigation was launched by a tip 0:55:57.800 --> 0:55:58.480 from the CIA. 0:55:58.960 --> 0:56:03.160 So interesting, Okay, so this was this was in some 0:56:03.280 --> 0:56:07.120 ways Americans that this was going on. Okay, well, we've 0:56:07.120 --> 0:56:10.399 always known this stuff was going on, right, It's it's 0:56:10.520 --> 0:56:12.840 choosing when they think they can act, right exactly. 0:56:13.080 --> 0:56:14.239 That's the interesting option. 0:56:14.600 --> 0:56:17.000 Well, you know, and and and and and we were 0:56:17.040 --> 0:56:19.920 aware of a lot of intelligence help that the Brazilians 0:56:19.960 --> 0:56:24.080 got when they were looking into this case. But but uh, 0:56:24.520 --> 0:56:27.120 you know, with with these intelligence stories, it's really difficult 0:56:27.120 --> 0:56:31.520 because we don't know. Oftentimes it is more advantageous for 0:56:31.560 --> 0:56:35.200 an intelligent service to discover the operations of an enemy 0:56:35.280 --> 0:56:38.319 intelligence service and just let them do. 0:56:38.440 --> 0:56:40.719 With don't want to expose it, right, I mean, that 0:56:40.920 --> 0:56:43.719 is the surprise, because you actually want to see, let's 0:56:43.719 --> 0:56:46.560 see what they do with this. Let's keep following these people. 0:56:46.800 --> 0:56:48.440 Maybe it leads to something bigger. 0:56:51.080 --> 0:56:53.600 And so yeah, it's always a difficult decision to expose 0:56:53.680 --> 0:56:55.680 one of these things because I think the tendency is 0:56:55.760 --> 0:56:59.040 to want to you know, the uh, the the spies 0:56:59.080 --> 0:57:01.719 that were arrested in the United States in twenty ten, 0:57:01.800 --> 0:57:04.560 the FBI had been watching them for a decade, and 0:57:05.320 --> 0:57:07.960 you know, you can imagine the sort of crushing psychological 0:57:08.000 --> 0:57:09.799 effect that had on these spies who thought that they 0:57:09.840 --> 0:57:12.040 were sort of operating for the Motherland for so long 0:57:12.560 --> 0:57:14.759 to find out that the FBI had been watching them 0:57:15.680 --> 0:57:18.040 for a decade of their careers. And so we don't 0:57:18.120 --> 0:57:20.720 really know how long the CIA and others might have 0:57:20.800 --> 0:57:24.360 been watching this go on, and what in fact triggered 0:57:27.240 --> 0:57:30.240 triggered them to act at this at this juncture. Maybe 0:57:30.400 --> 0:57:32.800 was the Ukraine War and in order sort of from 0:57:33.200 --> 0:57:35.560 politically to go after these people, like show us some 0:57:35.640 --> 0:57:38.080 results that you're wrapping up some of these spies. Maybe 0:57:38.120 --> 0:57:40.120 something else happened that caused them to move. 0:57:40.400 --> 0:57:43.280 But I assume you guys are pulling a lot of threads. 0:57:43.360 --> 0:57:45.160 What are the various threads you're trying to get at 0:57:45.240 --> 0:57:47.880 here to see because that, you know, it would be 0:57:48.000 --> 0:57:51.520 nice to know what triggered why did the CIA make 0:57:51.600 --> 0:57:52.920 this call? Why? 0:57:53.000 --> 0:57:55.240 Now, that's what the threads we're pulling. I mean, we 0:57:56.080 --> 0:57:59.040 you know, would desperately love to if any are listening, 0:57:59.240 --> 0:58:02.280 talk to any of these people. I've sent some messages 0:58:02.320 --> 0:58:04.600 out to numbers I think belonged to them in Russia. 0:58:05.560 --> 0:58:08.160 They've left me on red. Uh. 0:58:09.880 --> 0:58:12.240 That's a tough interview, right, because how do you know 0:58:12.280 --> 0:58:14.240 if they're telling you the truth or if you're being used. 0:58:14.960 --> 0:58:17.080 I've always found that that's a right. 0:58:18.160 --> 0:58:19.040 So we can figure it out. 0:58:19.160 --> 0:58:22.480 But I'm with you, that's a lot of our interviews. 0:58:22.440 --> 0:58:25.400 Not just I was just going to say that's sometimes 0:58:25.440 --> 0:58:32.640 domestic reporters are having this problem. But I digress. But anyway, Well, 0:58:33.440 --> 0:58:37.960 is this, uh, how much is this story taking up 0:58:38.000 --> 0:58:41.000 your bandwidth versus other stuff? And is this more of 0:58:41.640 --> 0:58:43.440 this is now in the rear view mirror or is 0:58:43.480 --> 0:58:45.520 this still this is still on your front burners? 0:58:46.400 --> 0:58:48.000 No, I think it's still definitely interested in this. 0:58:48.200 --> 0:58:50.320 Like you said, there's a lot of mysteries and unanswered 0:58:50.400 --> 0:58:54.800 questions around the investigation. It's funny when I'm when I 0:58:54.920 --> 0:58:58.640 came onto the story with with Michael, initially, he was like, 0:58:59.120 --> 0:59:00.520 I don't know how interest sing it is. 0:59:00.720 --> 0:59:02.720 He does so many spy stories that you. 0:59:02.800 --> 0:59:06.360 Kind of became defensitized to just how extraordinary story. 0:59:06.520 --> 0:59:08.920 You come in and go, oh my god, this is 0:59:08.960 --> 0:59:12.640 a TV show's back Who owns the rights? Right? Have 0:59:12.720 --> 0:59:14.880 you guys made money on that yet? No, I'm kidding. 0:59:14.920 --> 0:59:20.200 Allows now the New York Times, Yeah, well, well, isn't it. 0:59:20.680 --> 0:59:23.120 By the way they the way they parlay this stuff, 0:59:23.160 --> 0:59:27.080 I assume a Hulu streaming episodic show is coming soon, right, 0:59:27.200 --> 0:59:29.240 you know, Well, if it. 0:59:29.280 --> 0:59:31.000 Gets out to more any of the spies to reach 0:59:31.040 --> 0:59:32.920 out to us, great, But no, it is. 0:59:33.000 --> 0:59:33.440 It's one of them. 0:59:33.480 --> 0:59:37.400 It's probably the most interesting, fascinating story that I've worked on. 0:59:37.480 --> 0:59:39.160 And I think there's definitely, you know, like you said, 0:59:39.200 --> 0:59:40.280 answers to chase down. 0:59:40.800 --> 0:59:41.560 So we're still on it. 0:59:42.680 --> 0:59:44.760 So, Michael, you were in Ukraine cover in the war. 0:59:44.800 --> 0:59:46.720 When was the last time you were in country there? 0:59:48.200 --> 0:59:51.040 I was there about a year a little less a 0:59:51.040 --> 0:59:53.240 little less than a year ago, so so my my 0:59:53.360 --> 0:59:55.160 information is not as fresh. 0:59:55.480 --> 0:59:58.600 Right, No, And and do you expect to go back 0:59:59.000 --> 1:00:01.919 or how did that a few weeks I'll go back, 1:00:04.440 --> 1:00:07.200 I think, you know, I'd love for you to share 1:00:07.280 --> 1:00:11.160 sort of how does the times rotate so that you know, 1:00:12.120 --> 1:00:15.120 so that you know, no one person is frankly getting 1:00:15.920 --> 1:00:19.760 you know, getting desensitized to war at any given time, 1:00:19.920 --> 1:00:21.720 So how do you how do you prevent that? 1:00:22.560 --> 1:00:23.880 I mean, at the beginning of the war, we had 1:00:23.920 --> 1:00:26.200 a pretty we had a pretty regular rotation. I was 1:00:26.280 --> 1:00:29.320 in for about six seven weeks and then would come 1:00:29.360 --> 1:00:31.560 out for about three four weeks and then go back 1:00:31.600 --> 1:00:35.160 in again. They like you to get a break our 1:00:35.240 --> 1:00:37.520 bureau chief has been there since the very beginning. I 1:00:37.560 --> 1:00:39.400 mean he comes out as well on a rotation, but 1:00:40.480 --> 1:00:42.960 he's been overseeing the story since the beginning. But since then, 1:00:43.280 --> 1:00:47.280 I think among the original team who was reporting when 1:00:47.320 --> 1:00:51.200 the war started, I think only our bureau chief, Andrew 1:00:51.280 --> 1:00:55.640 cran is still on the story, along with our very 1:00:55.680 --> 1:00:59.800 many dedicated Ukrainian colleagues who live there. 1:01:00.240 --> 1:01:03.840 And are you guys in Russia or not? These days 1:01:05.040 --> 1:01:05.760 we just had. 1:01:05.680 --> 1:01:08.760 A couple of reporters in the country. It's it's, uh, 1:01:08.960 --> 1:01:12.720 it's very dicey. We normally like to go in when 1:01:12.840 --> 1:01:17.240 there's sort of a specific event, uh to cover, particularly 1:01:17.320 --> 1:01:19.560 if it's as if it's a holiday. So we had 1:01:19.840 --> 1:01:24.600 we had reporters in there, uh covering the May ninth, 1:01:24.640 --> 1:01:26.640 the victory day, uh celebration. 1:01:27.120 --> 1:01:29.240 In some ways, if there's a lot of eyeballs and 1:01:29.320 --> 1:01:32.640 it'd be it would be pretty that's pretty good form 1:01:32.720 --> 1:01:35.760 to Yanka reporter. You know, is that the idea that 1:01:35.920 --> 1:01:38.080 you would assume that I was. 1:01:38.280 --> 1:01:41.000 I was having these conversations, you know, in the first 1:01:41.120 --> 1:01:43.360 year of the war, before Evan was arrested, with our 1:01:43.440 --> 1:01:45.560 colleagues and with Evan as well, about sort of what 1:01:46.480 --> 1:01:49.000 what is possible? And what what what is impossible? And 1:01:49.080 --> 1:01:52.920 I think, you know, uh, we all thought, you know, 1:01:53.000 --> 1:01:56.240 the arrest of an American reporter is probably probably, you know, 1:01:56.360 --> 1:01:59.280 pretty unlikely, and so keep going in as it was 1:01:59.360 --> 1:02:05.040 probably uh uh probably an okay risk to take. But 1:02:05.160 --> 1:02:07.720 as as as evans arrest showed, you know, we were 1:02:07.840 --> 1:02:08.480 we were all wrong. 1:02:09.080 --> 1:02:11.720 Well, let me ask this, you know, get based on 1:02:11.920 --> 1:02:16.280 the experience, would you recommend any American to travel to 1:02:16.320 --> 1:02:18.680 Russia these days if you have an American. 1:02:19.560 --> 1:02:22.960 No, uh, and that and that's that's a different answer 1:02:23.040 --> 1:02:26.720 than maybe I would have given, uh, even a year 1:02:27.040 --> 1:02:31.640 or two ago. I think I think Evan's arrest really 1:02:31.640 --> 1:02:36.760 affected me. And I also think the Russian government has changed, uh, 1:02:37.040 --> 1:02:39.560 it has become I mean, you know, the Russian government 1:02:39.640 --> 1:02:44.320 is always sort of notoriously callous. They have become much 1:02:44.400 --> 1:02:52.240 more vicious and and and and uh difficult to barter with. Plus, 1:02:52.400 --> 1:02:55.120 I think at the moment we have I don't think 1:02:55.120 --> 1:02:59.320 I'm saying anything to sort of politically incorrect or opinion it, 1:02:59.600 --> 1:03:01.720 but we have at the moment an administration that I 1:03:01.840 --> 1:03:05.840 didn't fight very hard in the in the United States 1:03:05.920 --> 1:03:08.800 to get an American uh, certainly not an American reporter 1:03:08.920 --> 1:03:11.240 out maybe depending on the American and they might put 1:03:11.240 --> 1:03:14.400 some export into it. They have negotiated the release of Sudden. 1:03:15.640 --> 1:03:18.000 No. I mean you're You're not wrong, You're like, is 1:03:18.760 --> 1:03:23.360 is you know, well, this administration decide, you know, whether 1:03:23.640 --> 1:03:26.960 someone's friendly enough to them to help right that they 1:03:27.120 --> 1:03:29.200 that they make they make a decision based on that, 1:03:29.400 --> 1:03:32.400 not just simply based on an American citizen was was 1:03:32.560 --> 1:03:36.040 illegally detained. Well, look, it's a it's a great story. 1:03:37.400 --> 1:03:40.720 And if you, like I said it was, you you 1:03:40.840 --> 1:03:43.920 sit back where you did, both of you watch the Americans. 1:03:44.520 --> 1:03:47.280 Yes, I loved it, obsessed, loved it, all right. 1:03:49.720 --> 1:03:53.240 You've never seen it. Well, that's well, you know, it's funny. 1:03:53.320 --> 1:03:55.280 I feel that way about West Wing. I think West 1:03:55.320 --> 1:03:59.840 Wing's crap. I hate it. And it's because it's too 1:04:00.400 --> 1:04:04.320 like it it's too It isn't real. It's not reality based. 1:04:04.360 --> 1:04:06.680 It's sort of you know, Aaron Sork and Fantasyland, God 1:04:06.720 --> 1:04:10.200 bless them. And there's nothing wrong with fantasy. But people 1:04:10.280 --> 1:04:12.560 that got into politics thinking life is the West Wing, 1:04:12.640 --> 1:04:15.800 It's like, nope, go watch Veep. That's a little more realistic, 1:04:16.120 --> 1:04:21.880 you know, right, than than than West Wing. So I so, so, Michael, 1:04:21.920 --> 1:04:25.520 do you not watch are you? Because you do so 1:04:25.720 --> 1:04:29.680 much of this espionage beat. Has it made movies and 1:04:30.040 --> 1:04:32.280 programs about espionage less interesting to you? 1:04:33.160 --> 1:04:35.600 I think so? Yeah. I read a lot of books 1:04:35.640 --> 1:04:37.600 about espionage, like historic. 1:04:37.400 --> 1:04:41.440 The real stuff, right, yeah, but the yeah, I I 1:04:42.520 --> 1:04:44.240 need to, you know, draw. 1:04:44.160 --> 1:04:46.640 Some line where I'm thinking about other things. 1:04:46.760 --> 1:04:49.600 So you needed Jane on this, You needed this partnership 1:04:49.680 --> 1:04:54.720 to say, dude, this is an amazing story, not to sensitized. 1:04:54.760 --> 1:04:54.960 I think. 1:04:54.960 --> 1:04:57.760 I'm yeah, And it sounds like you brought in that 1:04:58.000 --> 1:05:01.680 that sort of you brought in the plotline joy to 1:05:01.760 --> 1:05:02.480 this story. 1:05:02.840 --> 1:05:06.240 The American since why I was living the American story. Yeah, 1:05:06.320 --> 1:05:06.520 that's what. 1:05:08.200 --> 1:05:10.320 That's the fantastic energy we've brought to it. 1:05:10.840 --> 1:05:14.480 Well, this is why whoever your editor is very smart 1:05:14.560 --> 1:05:19.080 bringing you two together. Because I couldn't put the story. 1:05:19.120 --> 1:05:20.800 It was one of those days You're like, I can't 1:05:20.840 --> 1:05:23.120 put this story down, and I think it was a 1:05:23.160 --> 1:05:24.960 pretty long read, and I say this, you know for 1:05:25.200 --> 1:05:27.439 these days for newspapers, right, and You're like, I can't 1:05:27.480 --> 1:05:28.920 put this down. And then I just wanted more and 1:05:28.960 --> 1:05:30.560 more and more. So I appreciate you guys coming on 1:05:31.440 --> 1:05:32.880 and humoring me on this. 1:05:33.760 --> 1:05:34.560 Thanks for having us. 1:05:34.640 --> 1:05:35.120 Thanks Jock. 1:05:42.800 --> 1:05:46.840 Well, I hope you enjoyed Season nine of The Americans. No, 1:05:46.880 --> 1:05:49.320 I'm half kidding, but you now, don't you want the 1:05:49.360 --> 1:05:51.120 show back? I mean, I know I've been on a 1:05:51.200 --> 1:05:56.440 Kerrie Russell unofficial showcase. Here, right, we had Debora khn 1:05:56.560 --> 1:06:00.600 talking about the diplomat. Now we're rehashing the America thanks 1:06:00.640 --> 1:06:02.800 to the news of the week when it comes to 1:06:04.000 --> 1:06:07.920 Russian illegal spies and the Brazilian government. Anyway, just a 1:06:08.040 --> 1:06:09.960 fascinating I can't get enough of the story. I hope 1:06:09.960 --> 1:06:13.160 you enjoyed it as much as I did conducting the interview. Well, 1:06:13.240 --> 1:06:15.400 let's do a little last Chuck, answer a few questions, 1:06:15.760 --> 1:06:22.640 ask Chuck. All right, Oh let's see. Oh this is great. 1:06:22.680 --> 1:06:25.720 This comes from Charlie L from Berlin, Germany via Montreal, Canada. 1:06:26.880 --> 1:06:29.560 Got it. When it comes to primaries, why is America 1:06:29.600 --> 1:06:31.680 stuck with a single first in the nation state? We 1:06:31.760 --> 1:06:33.560 see things like Super Tuesday in March, where a bunch 1:06:33.560 --> 1:06:36.240 of states run their primaries or caucuses in parallel. Referring 1:06:36.280 --> 1:06:39.040 to presidential politics here, obviously, I understand the state pride 1:06:39.040 --> 1:06:40.680 of going first. If I were Iowa, wouldn't want to 1:06:40.680 --> 1:06:42.800 give that up. But the question is whether does having 1:06:42.840 --> 1:06:44.520 all eyes on a single state for the first race 1:06:44.640 --> 1:06:47.920 ultimately help the presidential electoral process. My two cents, why 1:06:48.000 --> 1:06:50.040 not have Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina had all run 1:06:50.080 --> 1:06:51.880 on the same day. Strikes me that it would be 1:06:51.920 --> 1:06:54.560 a mini Super Tuesday electorally. These states are pretty comparable 1:06:54.600 --> 1:06:57.280 in size. They seem to represent a lot of America's facets. 1:06:57.320 --> 1:06:59.360 A candidate could try to aim and win just one 1:06:59.480 --> 1:07:01.240 or two of these aids, but anyone worth their salt 1:07:01.680 --> 1:07:04.200 should opt for a four state campaign. Love the new 1:07:04.240 --> 1:07:07.640 show look. I think it's a great thought about how 1:07:07.680 --> 1:07:10.200 to do that, which is those first. I completely agree 1:07:10.200 --> 1:07:13.400 about the first four states. If we all accept Iowa, 1:07:13.480 --> 1:07:17.920 New Hampshire, South Carolina, and Nevada, they all showcase different 1:07:18.000 --> 1:07:23.680 parts of the American electorate. Rural America, Independence are a 1:07:23.840 --> 1:07:28.240 huge chunk of New Hampshire voters, African Americans and Evangelical voters. 1:07:28.280 --> 1:07:33.320 In South Carolina, you have Latino voters and transient voters. 1:07:33.360 --> 1:07:37.000 Really as people migrate to Nevada all the time in there, 1:07:37.160 --> 1:07:41.000 and they're all small states. Look, Charlie, the most important 1:07:41.400 --> 1:07:45.600 thing about going first is making sure the whole theory 1:07:45.680 --> 1:07:48.480 of the case is of why a small state is 1:07:48.640 --> 1:07:51.200 to make it accessible so that a guy like Howard Dean, 1:07:51.240 --> 1:07:54.520 who was governor of Vermont, who didn't have the financial 1:07:54.880 --> 1:07:57.800 who didn't have the donor base that the governor of 1:07:57.840 --> 1:08:00.600 Illinois would have, you know, or the or the governor 1:08:00.600 --> 1:08:03.960 of California would have to actually be able to, you know, 1:08:04.200 --> 1:08:08.080 give have a fair shot of having voters give them 1:08:08.120 --> 1:08:10.480 a look. Right. This is what allowed Jimmy Carter to 1:08:10.560 --> 1:08:14.200 go from zero to hero. It's what allowed We've seen 1:08:14.840 --> 1:08:18.920 quite a few people take campaigns in Iowa and become 1:08:19.040 --> 1:08:21.920 national figures. Pat Robertson successfully pulled that off back in 1:08:22.000 --> 1:08:25.040 nineteen eighty eight. He didn't win Iowa, but he overperformed. 1:08:25.080 --> 1:08:27.599 He did better than expected, and it sort of put 1:08:27.640 --> 1:08:29.160 his name on the map and in some ways beat 1:08:29.200 --> 1:08:32.360 Boodagic right is the mayor of South Bend him, you know, 1:08:32.800 --> 1:08:35.439 essentially coming in a tie for first. I guess we 1:08:35.520 --> 1:08:37.800 still don't know who quite won him or Bernie, but 1:08:37.920 --> 1:08:39.439 the fact that he was tied for first sort of 1:08:39.479 --> 1:08:41.760 helped put him on the map and gave the mayor 1:08:41.840 --> 1:08:45.360 of South Bend Access. So the theory behind the small states, 1:08:45.400 --> 1:08:47.960 but you know, putting all four in the same day, 1:08:49.080 --> 1:08:51.559 you know that is one way to solve that problem. 1:08:51.600 --> 1:08:55.760 There's some constitutional state constitutional stuff in New Hampshire and 1:08:55.960 --> 1:08:58.880 in Iowa where they both embedded the whole first first 1:08:58.960 --> 1:09:01.920 in the Nation thing into their state constitutions. But you know, 1:09:02.880 --> 1:09:05.200 as Donald Trump has taught us, these constitutions are just 1:09:05.320 --> 1:09:10.760 suggestions anyway, right, I kid, I kid, Second question here 1:09:11.120 --> 1:09:15.120 from Beaverdale, Pennsylvania. It's Lindsay, as she notes, just outside Johnstown. 1:09:15.560 --> 1:09:17.559 I'm enjoining a new podcast and the freedom it clearly 1:09:17.600 --> 1:09:20.400 gives you to be more open about your opinions on 1:09:20.479 --> 1:09:23.160 various topics. Your take on faith in politics is something 1:09:23.160 --> 1:09:24.880 that I would love to hear you dive into further, 1:09:24.920 --> 1:09:26.720 particularly if we will ever get to a point where 1:09:26.760 --> 1:09:29.400 being religious is not required of a politician. Are there 1:09:29.400 --> 1:09:32.599 examples of politicians that keep their faith private or even 1:09:33.080 --> 1:09:35.600 or are even atheist or agnostic and still succeed in 1:09:35.640 --> 1:09:38.559 getting elected. Do you think America could ever elect one 1:09:38.600 --> 1:09:41.040 as president? I know that some argue that Donald Trump 1:09:41.520 --> 1:09:43.639 may not be a very religious person, but he still 1:09:43.680 --> 1:09:46.519 pretends to be so I don't think he should count. Look, 1:09:46.560 --> 1:09:49.880 I agree, I think the question is I remember, I 1:09:49.960 --> 1:09:52.560 think we had a poll question that indicated this that 1:09:52.720 --> 1:09:57.720 the we would do a round of polling. Where are you? 1:09:57.880 --> 1:10:00.800 Are you comfortable with this attribute? Mute or uncomfortable with 1:10:00.880 --> 1:10:04.360 this attribute? You know, a woman president, a gay president, 1:10:04.479 --> 1:10:08.200 a divorced president, a president that doesn't believe in God. 1:10:09.680 --> 1:10:13.320 I believe that the worst performing what if in that 1:10:13.439 --> 1:10:16.760 scenario was a president that doesn't believe in God? Right 1:10:16.920 --> 1:10:20.320 when we when we're still standing up at seventh innings 1:10:20.360 --> 1:10:23.000 of baseball games to God bless America and it's seen 1:10:23.000 --> 1:10:26.000 as a patriotic song and not necessarily as a song 1:10:26.080 --> 1:10:30.320 of faith. I think that tells you that you're probably 1:10:30.400 --> 1:10:32.799 not decided. You know, I'm I. You know, I certainly 1:10:32.800 --> 1:10:35.960 wouldn't be recommending to a politician. They attempt to be 1:10:36.040 --> 1:10:38.320 the first politician to prove that an atheist can win. 1:10:40.240 --> 1:10:44.360 So I think it's now, you know, I, You've You've 1:10:44.400 --> 1:10:46.200 probably caught I. I sort of feel like I'm not 1:10:46.240 --> 1:10:50.600 a very religious person, but i'm culturally you know, I 1:10:50.720 --> 1:10:53.960 was culturally raised Jewish, as I sort of mixed religion, 1:10:53.960 --> 1:10:56.040 so I was related with all the religions, which you 1:10:56.080 --> 1:10:57.840 could argue then was I relized with any right? But 1:10:57.960 --> 1:11:01.320 if I but I did my deepest eye in Judaism, 1:11:01.360 --> 1:11:04.639 and I raised both my kids Jewish because I wanted 1:11:04.680 --> 1:11:07.200 them to have a religious education. And I think the 1:11:07.280 --> 1:11:10.920 Old Testament is as good as any of a baseline education. 1:11:11.080 --> 1:11:14.120 And look, I do think religious education matters even if 1:11:14.160 --> 1:11:17.360 you're not a person of faith, because it's so foundational 1:11:17.400 --> 1:11:20.840 in music, in the arts, in literature. And yes, it 1:11:20.920 --> 1:11:25.400 impacts our politics. So you know, not understanding faith in 1:11:26.760 --> 1:11:32.439 the world will just make you understand how the world 1:11:32.520 --> 1:11:36.439 works less so, right, you'll be less willing to do that. 1:11:36.640 --> 1:11:39.840 So but no, I don't think we're there yet. I mean, 1:11:40.360 --> 1:11:42.439 do I think we will be by the end of 1:11:42.479 --> 1:11:45.720 this century? I do? You know, I think that you 1:11:45.800 --> 1:11:48.680 can see the trend lines. I've always said if you 1:11:48.840 --> 1:11:51.919 look at the number of people who call themselves religious 1:11:51.920 --> 1:11:53.880 in nineteen hundred versus the number of people that call 1:11:53.920 --> 1:11:56.840 themselves religion in two thousand, Right, And we had this 1:11:57.000 --> 1:11:59.040 sort of you know, if you look at it from 1:11:59.200 --> 1:12:02.360 over one hundred year period, it's on its way to collapse. 1:12:02.439 --> 1:12:05.240 Now we've seen a many religious sort of plateauing. Right, 1:12:05.960 --> 1:12:09.080 there had been a steady decrease in sort of people 1:12:09.320 --> 1:12:12.040 following organized religion, and now there seems to be a 1:12:12.080 --> 1:12:16.600 bit of a plateau and even some incremental upswing in 1:12:16.720 --> 1:12:19.839 certain groups. And I do think that our need for community, 1:12:20.040 --> 1:12:23.680 that faith becomes a place potentially to go. There. My 1:12:23.760 --> 1:12:25.840 friend John Kasik would be and argue that this is 1:12:25.840 --> 1:12:27.720 a good thing, that this could bring people together. And 1:12:28.520 --> 1:12:30.719 you know, I think we all wish if people actually 1:12:30.760 --> 1:12:32.760 followed the tenants of their religion, then we would be 1:12:33.640 --> 1:12:36.840 in a better place in this world. But you know, 1:12:36.960 --> 1:12:39.799 what people do in the name of religion isn't always 1:12:40.400 --> 1:12:44.880 following the tenants of said religion. But yeah, I don't think. 1:12:46.360 --> 1:12:48.600 I think you still have to have politicians pay some 1:12:48.680 --> 1:12:52.720 lip service, and I think, look, it's gonna Yeah, I'm 1:12:52.880 --> 1:12:54.920 here's a trend line that I'm curious about over the 1:12:55.000 --> 1:12:58.600 next twenty years. Well, we start to see Africa Americans 1:12:58.680 --> 1:13:04.320 divide on religion. So, for instance, in among Jewish voters, 1:13:04.600 --> 1:13:07.880 if you go to synagogue once a week or more, 1:13:07.880 --> 1:13:12.000 you're more likely to vote Republican. That's true of any faith. 1:13:12.280 --> 1:13:14.200 If you go months a week or more, you're more 1:13:14.320 --> 1:13:16.519 likely to vote on the right side of the isle 1:13:16.560 --> 1:13:18.160 than on the left side of The less you go 1:13:18.880 --> 1:13:21.840 to church, the more likely you vote on the left. 1:13:22.680 --> 1:13:26.120 Will we the one exception has always been religious African Americans. 1:13:28.120 --> 1:13:30.599 That is turning into a generational divide right where you're 1:13:30.600 --> 1:13:37.680 seeing younger African Americans not as not as not as 1:13:38.840 --> 1:13:41.639 as full intendance in the Black Church as you saw 1:13:41.800 --> 1:13:44.519 with previous generations. And the Black Church is sort of 1:13:44.560 --> 1:13:48.400 a is an very important political organizing force as well. 1:13:48.560 --> 1:13:51.680 So that's you know, that's something I want to watch 1:13:51.760 --> 1:13:54.120 for in over the next twenty or thirty years. Will 1:13:54.160 --> 1:13:58.799 there be a divide among African Americans on religious grounds, 1:13:59.479 --> 1:14:03.160 because we've seen it in every other demographic. You know, 1:14:03.240 --> 1:14:06.479 there's you know, the Catholic vote, you divide based on 1:14:06.600 --> 1:14:08.479 if you attend Mass or don't attend Mass. It's not 1:14:08.560 --> 1:14:11.040 whether the Catholic vote leans one way or the other right. 1:14:11.200 --> 1:14:15.840 It depends on how religious you really are. But we 1:14:15.920 --> 1:14:19.880 hadn't seen that yet impact the African American vote just yet, 1:14:20.000 --> 1:14:23.400 and I'm curious to see if that happens. Last question, 1:14:23.479 --> 1:14:26.600 this one comes from Darren in San Francisco. All the 1:14:26.640 --> 1:14:29.679 new revelations about Biden's decline and related shortcomings that selling 1:14:29.760 --> 1:14:32.720 his agenda have reminded me that after the ACA had 1:14:32.760 --> 1:14:35.040 barely passed and then took years to become popular, I 1:14:35.160 --> 1:14:37.200 was convinced that the Democrats would have learned the necessity 1:14:37.240 --> 1:14:39.840 of strong and sustained messaging. But during Biden's term and 1:14:39.920 --> 1:14:42.960 continuing into the tobacco we're in now, it's as if 1:14:43.040 --> 1:14:45.840 this still completely fails to register on a party wide scale. 1:14:46.200 --> 1:14:48.640 What do you think accounts for this pervasive cluelessness. Is 1:14:48.720 --> 1:14:51.839 it resigning to the fact that complicated positions and policies 1:14:51.840 --> 1:14:54.800 aren't easy to communicate effectively something these very smart people 1:14:54.840 --> 1:14:57.200 are paid to figure out how to do and or 1:14:57.320 --> 1:15:00.320 my theory, do they have an inexplicable content evidence in 1:15:00.360 --> 1:15:02.800 the average voter to reason and pay attention on their own. 1:15:02.840 --> 1:15:04.840 Republicans seem to have the opposite view and take full 1:15:04.880 --> 1:15:07.960 advantage of it. Yes, I'll simplify it even more, Darren. 1:15:09.280 --> 1:15:12.400 You know as a as a friend of mine likes 1:15:12.439 --> 1:15:14.800 to put it, Republicans try to agree with the voter. 1:15:15.240 --> 1:15:18.560 Democrats try to tell the voter what to believe and 1:15:19.439 --> 1:15:22.479 so and then in campaigns you want to be on 1:15:22.520 --> 1:15:24.560 the side of the voters. Versus trying to make the 1:15:24.640 --> 1:15:25.719 voters be on your side. 1:15:25.960 --> 1:15:26.080 Right. 1:15:26.200 --> 1:15:29.360 And I think ultimately, if I were to pinpoint the 1:15:29.600 --> 1:15:34.960 philosophical problem with the Democratic strategic machinery, it is just 1:15:35.120 --> 1:15:37.920 that it's not that they believe people. It's just that 1:15:38.040 --> 1:15:40.800 they believe they can always convince people that they're right 1:15:41.240 --> 1:15:43.880 and that they're versus Republicans go, oh, you don't like 1:15:44.000 --> 1:15:46.599 illegal immigration, neither do we. You don't like the cost 1:15:46.640 --> 1:15:49.040 of in neither do way we agree with you. Right. 1:15:49.120 --> 1:15:51.240 It's more of a they find a way to agree 1:15:51.280 --> 1:15:54.680 with the voter, and they'll do it on some you know, 1:15:55.240 --> 1:15:58.320 Trump jumped on the opioid issue because voters in New 1:15:58.320 --> 1:16:01.000 Hampshire were concerned about it. This is one of those cases. 1:16:01.320 --> 1:16:04.200 Democratic candidates for president in twenty fifteen and twenty sixteen 1:16:04.520 --> 1:16:07.639 weren't listening to the voters. Republican candidates in twenty fifteen 1:16:07.680 --> 1:16:10.719 and twenty sixteen New Hampshire were, and they all jumped 1:16:10.760 --> 1:16:13.360 on the opioid thing a lot quicker, and I think 1:16:13.400 --> 1:16:16.040 more effectively as far as the electorate was concerned than 1:16:16.080 --> 1:16:18.680 Democrats did. And it was simply just hearing, listening to 1:16:18.720 --> 1:16:20.960 the voters and agreeing with the voter that yes, this 1:16:21.120 --> 1:16:24.760 is a problem. So I think it's it's you know, 1:16:24.880 --> 1:16:29.599 it's sort of an even bigger anyway, I totally get 1:16:29.760 --> 1:16:33.439 your question. I know I'm not answering it directly, but 1:16:33.600 --> 1:16:37.759 I hope my view on this in essence does answer 1:16:37.800 --> 1:16:40.720 your question. I think it only reinforces, perhaps what you 1:16:40.800 --> 1:16:44.519 already believe in the messaging mess that is the Democratic 1:16:44.600 --> 1:16:48.439 Party these days. All right, I'm going to leave it there. 1:16:48.520 --> 1:16:50.479 The next time I talk to you, we will flip 1:16:50.560 --> 1:16:53.960 the calendar to June. I've had an incredible first sixty 1:16:54.080 --> 1:16:56.400 days on this run. I really appreciate everybody that is 1:16:56.600 --> 1:16:59.000 like subscribed all of those things. Don't forget we have 1:16:59.040 --> 1:17:01.400 a substack. Now we've got all these things. You can 1:17:01.439 --> 1:17:03.800 hear us anywhere you want. YouTube, we'd love for you 1:17:03.920 --> 1:17:07.519 to subscribe to the channel, everything else, Spotify, Apple, you 1:17:07.640 --> 1:17:11.800 name it. And if Apple isn't uploading right away, automatically 1:17:12.200 --> 1:17:15.360 help us inform Apple that they're messed up. This has 1:17:15.400 --> 1:17:18.040 been an issue. Luckily apparently we're not the only podcast 1:17:18.120 --> 1:17:20.439 with this issue. But please feel free to let the 1:17:20.479 --> 1:17:24.200 engineering team know themselves. Hey Apple, you've got a problem. 1:17:24.439 --> 1:17:28.080 We've done it. Maybe they'll be responsive to you, a 1:17:28.080 --> 1:17:31.280 little more responsive to you. So with that, I'll take 1:17:31.280 --> 1:17:33.360 a little respite until we upload again.