1 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: Hello there, Welcome to another episode of the Chuck Podcast. 2 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:10,479 Speaker 1: We have a fascinating set of guests for you today. 3 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: It's the two New York Times reporters behind the uncovering 4 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:18,920 Speaker 1: of these I guess you might call them a sleeper 5 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 1: Russian agents and how the country of Brazil essentially became 6 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 1: an incubator for the You know, if you were a 7 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: fan of the show of the Americans and this idea 8 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: of the illegals and the actual program where you had 9 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 1: these deep undercover spies that Russia will infiltrate various Western societies, well, 10 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: way do you understand? And you're going to hear and 11 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 1: they do a terrific job of telling you the story. 12 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 1: But how Brazil and it sort of has unique ways 13 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: of proving of being able to get a birth certificate, 14 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: that it became basically ground zero for the Russians and 15 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 1: for Putin's factctory to potentially and what's interesting is that 16 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: it's possible this has been going on since before the 17 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:10,760 Speaker 1: end of the Cold War and in fact may have 18 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 1: been sort of never It wasn't some a program that 19 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 1: was quote unquote revived when Putin came into power that 20 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 1: actually never ended, even as the Cold War ended. Anyway, 21 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:24,479 Speaker 1: It's a fascinating conversation. I hope you make time for it. 22 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:26,639 Speaker 1: It's a terrific It's why I'm releasing it on Thursday, 23 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 1: because I think it's a terrific longer listen if you will. 24 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: But before we get to that, I want to do 25 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 1: a little bit of I've got my hands on polling 26 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 1: in a couple of important states, Texas and Michigan, as 27 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 1: well as some polling that I'm going to be dismissive 28 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 1: of in South Carolina. I'll tell you that in a minute. 29 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:45,679 Speaker 1: And while both Texas and Michigan are very twenty twenty 30 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 1: six oriented, there is I want to sort of sort 31 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 1: of do a little big picture here and just say, 32 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 1: you know, as we're sort of the leader of the 33 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 1: Republican Party has put the Republican Party right now, and 34 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: how Donald Trump is actually putting them and starting to 35 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 1: make some of the same mistakes that leaders of previous 36 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 1: you know, previous presidents have helped to create similar mistakes 37 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 1: that have only led their party to losses, particularly in 38 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 1: midterm years. Just think about what he's been talking about 39 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 1: more over the last oh say, seventy two ninety six hours, 40 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 1: right he spent Memorial Day weekend attacking Harvard. He compared 41 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 1: himself to al Capone. He hyped his crypto business. His 42 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 1: kids are out in Vegas doing more crypto business this week. 43 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:37,639 Speaker 1: His vice president was raising money from crypto guys. Didn't 44 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:41,799 Speaker 1: really mention fallen soldiers, particularly at West Point, used the 45 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 1: West Point commencement address to rehash his personal legal grievances. 46 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 1: The point is he was making it all about himself. 47 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 1: And the thing with midterm elections is that presidents, you know, 48 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 1: are even when they're not on the ballot, they composed 49 00:02:57,360 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 1: the mood music of it, and they can have an 50 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 1: impact on that. And this is sort of doubly a 51 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: problem for the Republican Party because Donald Trump, you know, 52 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 1: when his name's on the ballot, there are a group 53 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 1: of voters that show up. But when his name's not 54 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 1: on a ballot, these voters don't show up, and the 55 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 1: voters that do show up are more are listening to 56 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:19,359 Speaker 1: the mood music that's being composed by Trump, and right 57 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 1: now that is not in a good place for the midterms. 58 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: And in fact, even if he gets his big agenda bill, 59 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:27,919 Speaker 1: the problem he's got is that there's no new deliverable. Right, 60 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 1: there's not an extra tax cut, it's just keeping the 61 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 1: tax bill the same. And it's hard to convince somebody, oh, 62 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 1: it could have been worse if I didn't do it. 63 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 1: And yet that's you know, he doesn't have a lot 64 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 1: of wins. The one place where he has some wins 65 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 1: is on the border, and it's not an insignificant thing. 66 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 1: And I think that it's the one place that I 67 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: think voters are pretty happy with how things are going. 68 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 1: But look at the central issue of how he won 69 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 1: this election. He won this election on prices in the economy. 70 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: I think the border was second, but I think it 71 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: was and I think when you think about these swing voters, 72 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: they didn't swing on the border. Those swing voters swung 73 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 1: on prices in the economy and the belief that Trump 74 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 1: knew how to manage a better economy and a disbelief 75 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 1: that Biden and Harris knew what they were doing on 76 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:17,839 Speaker 1: the economy. So he hasn't really focused on lowering prices 77 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:20,720 Speaker 1: because prices haven't been lowered. If anything, it feels as 78 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 1: if prices are going to go back up right thanks 79 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:27,479 Speaker 1: to what's happening in what's happening with his with his 80 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:31,159 Speaker 1: unsteady tariff policy, So he's not looking forward, he's not 81 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 1: addressing sort of the near term needs of the electorate 82 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: or it economically, and he's not going to have to 83 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 1: campaign on this. Other Republicans are going to be having 84 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:44,720 Speaker 1: to campaign on this, and they have to campaign defending this. 85 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:47,159 Speaker 1: They can't run as change candidates. And one thing I 86 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:50,600 Speaker 1: think we've learned is that we're perpetually in a change 87 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:54,040 Speaker 1: change cycle. It was a change election in six it 88 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 1: was a change election in o eight, It's a change 89 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 1: election in ten, and was not a change election in 90 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:02,160 Speaker 1: twelve as a term out or Mitt Romney would have won. 91 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 1: But it was a change election in fourteen. It was 92 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:06,279 Speaker 1: a change election in sixteen. It was a change election 93 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 1: in eighteen, so change election in twenty, so a change 94 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: election in twenty two, and it was a change election 95 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:12,719 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty in twenty four. Do you see a 96 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 1: pattern here? 97 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 2: Right? 98 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: We know what we don't want, and we're certainly not 99 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 1: happy with incumbency in general, especially when it appears you've 100 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 1: taken your eye off the ball. Right, George W. Bush 101 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 1: and the Republicans got pummeled in six because in five 102 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 1: and six after winning reelection in four on safety and 103 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 1: security issues. He started focusing on social security, don't touch it. 104 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 1: Then we got into these sort of weird, nuanced issues 105 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:45,719 Speaker 1: where government was getting involved in an end of life 106 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:48,040 Speaker 1: care the Terry Schivo If you want to know more 107 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 1: about that, if you ahead and do your own Google 108 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 1: and deep dive on Terry Schivo. But it really was 109 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 1: sort of government, you know, getting too involved in your life, 110 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:59,160 Speaker 1: and it was the Republicans right doing that, and they 111 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:02,479 Speaker 1: and it and handed the Democrats the hey, get government 112 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: out out of your life message. Do you see something 113 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 1: similar happening here? Go read the most recent column of 114 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 1: George Will, and he makes the case that the current 115 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 1: version of the Republican Party has become as pro government 116 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 1: and in some way as dictatorial of what government that 117 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 1: government should tell you how to live your life, in 118 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 1: the same way that he would criticize progressives for wanting 119 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 1: to do similar things. In fact, he called it a 120 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 1: progress said it's the most progressive administration we've ever had 121 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 1: in the American presidency. Obviously, George Will, who's more of 122 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:38,360 Speaker 1: a limited government conservative, doesn't see his version of conservatism 123 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 1: at all being represented by this wing of the Republican Party. 124 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:45,279 Speaker 1: And the problem is Trump is the party right for 125 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: better or for worse. So he defines the party and 126 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 1: we already know this. It is his version is not popular. 127 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:56,479 Speaker 1: He only succeeds when something is more unpopular standing next 128 00:06:56,560 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 1: to him, and he won't be on the ballot. And yes, 129 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 1: he'll try to revive Joe Biden, and they'll try to 130 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: make that a issue. You already see some Republicans are 131 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 1: trying to revise that the issue of the trans women 132 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 1: in sports. That's the first ad and the Georgia Senate 133 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 1: race that a Republican is running. So they certainly want 134 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: to try to keep running on the culture wars of 135 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 1: some sort. But it's going to be tough if Democrats 136 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 1: actually focus on near term issues. Look, Democrats have you know, 137 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 1: Barack Obama focusing on healthcare even though he was arguing 138 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 1: that healthcare would help long term economic prospects, that did 139 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 1: not answer the near term need that voters had when 140 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: it came to the financial crisis, And why wasn't there 141 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: more of a focus on that, and why wasn't there 142 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 1: more you know, essentially old Testament justice when it came 143 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: to the financial crisis, and so and I think that 144 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 1: was among the explanations of why why Obama got Obama's 145 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 1: party got their head handed to them in the twenty 146 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 1: ten midterms and then, arguably to a lesser extent in 147 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 1: twenty fourteen. So I don't think right now and this 148 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 1: is a critical time. This isn't a random time to 149 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: be bringing this up. This is a critical time for 150 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 1: Republicans to be recruiting candidates for office, for Republicans to 151 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 1: be convincing incumbents to run for reelection again. And when 152 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 1: they look at the mood music that Donald Trump is composing, 153 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 1: and they look at the at this big, beautiful bill 154 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 1: that is not going to have a lot of things 155 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,119 Speaker 1: that are easy to sell to the public that feel 156 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 1: responsive to their current needs. You know, maybe he figures 157 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:36,439 Speaker 1: out a way to write a check signed by Donald 158 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: Trump to people. Maybe it'll be twenty bucks, whatever it is. 159 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 1: He's going to try some gimmick like that, because they're 160 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 1: going to have to try something like that. But these, 161 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: you know, any changes to Medicaid are going to be unpopular. 162 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 1: I think one thing we're going to learn is that 163 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 1: Medicaid is as an untouchable. As I pointed out yesterday 164 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 1: in the previous podcast is as untouchable as Social Security 165 00:08:56,280 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 1: and Medicare. And I think that back of part of 166 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 1: this is that Republicans have never been defenders of Medicaid before. 167 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 1: They've been critics of the program for decades, and now 168 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 1: that it's essentially universally popular, and because it is a 169 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 1: safety net, not just if you if you're out of 170 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:18,319 Speaker 1: a job, but it's a safety net if you're stuck 171 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 1: doing a job that doesn't offer benefits. It's also a 172 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 1: safety net if you run out of money before before 173 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 1: the end of your life. It is a safety net 174 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: for a lot of Americans, not just Americans unquote unquote welfare. 175 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 1: So with that, I just wanted to put that out 176 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 1: there because I do think Donald Trump's not helping his 177 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:39,559 Speaker 1: party at all, and we have some initial polling to show, 178 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 1: you know, his job. There's a new Texas poll that 179 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:43,840 Speaker 1: I think is a quite good poll, although I think 180 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 1: it did a real poor job asking one question and 181 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 1: I'll get to it, but Texas Southern University, the Barbara 182 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 1: Jordan School, they put out a very uh and there. Look, 183 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: there's not a lot of great polling in the state 184 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:57,960 Speaker 1: of Texas, but this is a pretty good one and 185 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 1: has had a pretty good track record, and it measures 186 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 1: the big stuff, including presidential job rating. In Texas. Okay, 187 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 1: there's a red state. He's sitting at fifty three percent 188 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:11,080 Speaker 1: and they did her. If you could do a revote, 189 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 1: Trump's fourteen point win over Harris would be down to eight. Now, 190 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:17,359 Speaker 1: part of that is we know that the midterm electorate 191 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:21,080 Speaker 1: is going to be less trumpy, right, Yet another reason 192 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:25,560 Speaker 1: for why Trump's inability to give to sort of deliver 193 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 1: items that the voters are going to care about come 194 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 1: the midterms is going to be a real challenge for 195 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:34,319 Speaker 1: them because it's electorate. As we know, the more focused 196 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 1: you are on voting in a midterm, the less pro 197 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:41,319 Speaker 1: Trump you are. But just to give you a sense 198 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 1: of because this is I think a pretty good standing. 199 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 1: He's got a fifty three percent job approval, which again 200 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:51,080 Speaker 1: this is Texas, that's not the greatest. Forty seven percent 201 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 1: in Texas are disapproving of the job he's doing. Now, 202 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:56,200 Speaker 1: his approval rating is higher on immigration than any other 203 00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 1: issue at fifty six percent, and this is the one 204 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 1: issue that he has been pulling universally across the board. 205 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 1: Has been given credit for that. Ironically, he was assisted 206 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 1: by finally in the last year of his presidency, after 207 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 1: a new chief of staff came in, Jeff Science, that 208 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 1: allowed the Department of Homeland Security in Ali Mayorcus to 209 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 1: actually do the job that they were trying to do 210 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 1: in the first two years of the Biden administration, and 211 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:22,199 Speaker 1: for some reason the West wing or the president wasn't 212 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:27,440 Speaker 1: allowing them to do their job. But in many ways, 213 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 1: the Biden administration gave Trump a head start at getting 214 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 1: I mean, the cynic in me thinks that one of 215 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 1: the reasons why Stephen Miller is pushing for rescinding some 216 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 1: of these temporary protected status citations for different for different 217 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 1: immigrants from different countries is so they can then drum 218 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:53,680 Speaker 1: up their deportation numbers, because once you pull away the 219 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:58,080 Speaker 1: protected status, then suddenly they're eligible for deportation. And clearly 220 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 1: they care more about the metrics than than wanting to 221 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:04,199 Speaker 1: admit that Biden did seventy percent of the job for 222 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 1: them before they got to it, because that's an uncomfortable 223 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 1: truth that they would not want to admit. Here's what's 224 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 1: also interesting in here is that Texas voters he's got 225 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:17,200 Speaker 1: a higher approval rating than his overall approval rating on 226 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:19,599 Speaker 1: the issue of reduction of the size of government. I 227 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 1: think this is a reminder and Democrats need to be 228 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 1: very careful here at how they go after Elon Musk. 229 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 1: I think Elon Musk is unpopular. What Elon Musk was 230 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:30,840 Speaker 1: doing was not unpopular. Right. This gets at to what 231 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 1: I've argued is a competency issue for this administration. Their 232 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 1: goals are aligned with the voters, their ability to implement 233 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 1: their goals are not, you know, is sort of incompetent. Right. 234 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 1: They've done a terrible job on tariffs. They've done a 235 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 1: terrible job on how you would actually cut government. There 236 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 1: were ways to do this that they could have had 237 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 1: congressional buy in a lot sooner, and they didn't do it. 238 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 1: But the fact is the voters have noticed he got 239 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:57,839 Speaker 1: caught trying, and they're giving them credit for getting caught trying. 240 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 1: But this is where you see the trouble spots where 241 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 1: he's below that fifty three percent job eRating on specific 242 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 1: issues in Texas, Trump is at fifty one on foreign policy, 243 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 1: at forty nine on the economy, at forty five percent 244 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:15,679 Speaker 1: on tariffs. Okay, at and he's got a fifty one 245 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 1: percent personal favorable rating, So I think it shows you 246 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 1: what the warning signs are, right, And already voters, even 247 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 1: in red Texas have decided he doesn't. He's not handling 248 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 1: the economy well, and he's not handling tariffs well well. 249 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 1: Tariffs and the economy to me are almost going to 250 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:37,439 Speaker 1: be conflated as one issue. This is a giant flashing 251 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 1: red flag, red light, if you will, for Republicans, which 252 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 1: probably does explain why the president keeps backing off these tariffs, right. 253 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: And it's not just that he's shown the volatility in 254 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 1: the bond markets bad for the economy, raises, mortgage rates, 255 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:58,679 Speaker 1: all those things. But then it's like, hey, buddy, people 256 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 1: don't think you know what you're doing on the economy anymore. 257 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 1: That was the singular reason voters chose the voters who 258 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:09,119 Speaker 1: were who were who weren't fans of him, but reluctantly 259 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 1: voted for him. It was almost universally on the issue 260 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 1: of the economy. One other note on the Texas poll 261 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 1: in here on the Senate race, and by the way, 262 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:21,239 Speaker 1: a little request to my friends at Texas Southern University, 263 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 1: which is they didn't do a three way matchup because 264 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 1: what I really want to see is what is the 265 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: strength of the corn voter when when Cornyn would be 266 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 1: there and is an independent. I know he's not threatened 267 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 1: as an independent, but if you really want to see 268 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 1: the strength of the Republican brand in Paxton, the Democratic 269 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 1: brand and Colin all read and where the middle is right, 270 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 1: who were the persuadable voters? If you asked a three 271 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 1: way general election race for for for social science purposes 272 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: to my professor friends of Texas State, Texas Southern, you 273 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 1: would get a better understanding of who the who the 274 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 1: group of voters that are the most movable right, the 275 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 1: group of voters that picked corn And when given the 276 00:14:57,760 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: other two choices, I think will tell you who the 277 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: who the swing voters are. So I think it's a 278 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: it's a missed opportunity to truly identify an easier way 279 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 1: to entify. But what's interesting here John Cornyan has the 280 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: lowest favorable rating among Republicans than any of the other 281 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 1: Republican candidates tested. He is the highest unfavorable rating among 282 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 1: Republicans than any the only one that's over thirty percent unfavorable. 283 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 1: Now Trump's endorsement, it would matter to seventy plus percent 284 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 1: of primary voters. That's a big deal. I have a 285 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 1: feeling Trump's going to endorse both Conan Impacston, and he's 286 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 1: going to pull an air. You know. One of the 287 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 1: things Trump does is that he is that is that 288 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 1: if he if he is afraid of letting somebody down, 289 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 1: he will then just endorse both candidates. He's done that 290 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 1: in a handful of races. I suspect he will do 291 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 1: that here. For what it's worth, I think it's fascinating 292 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 1: that Congressman Wesley Hunt, when he's included in the race, 293 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 1: he immediately is able to get fifteen percent. The fact is, 294 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 1: I think Cornan and the question I have is, and 295 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 1: it's going to get me to another poll here in 296 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 1: a minute. Incumbency may be as big of a problem 297 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 1: for Cornin as not being maga enough is. And I 298 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 1: think that, you know, I think being an incumbent, whether 299 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 1: you're a D or an R, is going to be 300 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: a negative to most voters in twenty twenty six. I 301 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 1: think there's a real disillusionment with the with the political 302 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:23,960 Speaker 1: power in both parties. I mean, at the end of 303 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 1: the day, you have a lot of voters who didn't 304 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 1: like the fact that their choices were going to be 305 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 1: Biden and Trump, and that was due to the lack 306 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 1: of leadership in either party to do something about it. 307 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 1: And I think there's going to be you know, there's 308 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 1: going to be a lot of openness to alternative candidates 309 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 1: to incumbents, whether that's in third party candidacies. And I'm 310 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 1: going to tell you about a minute in Michigan or 311 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 1: it's about it's about primaries. But the fact is John 312 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 1: Cornyn's in deep trouble. If he can figure out how 313 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 1: to win this primary, he's going to win reelection. But 314 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 1: I don't know if he can win this primary. When 315 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 1: you start to look at his fundaments, because he's not 316 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 1: it's not going to be an even you know, even 317 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 1: if he has it at best, he can hope for 318 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 1: an even financial playing field. Now I will say this, 319 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:10,520 Speaker 1: It is worth noting that John corn hired Chris Losovita, 320 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:13,640 Speaker 1: who is one of the architects of Donald Trump's successful 321 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:16,719 Speaker 1: twenty twenty four reelection. And las Avita knows how to 322 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 1: I've pointed this out before. He knows how to play ball, 323 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 1: and he knows how to play ball in a primary 324 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:25,239 Speaker 1: when necessary, and he's a tough He's one of your 325 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 1: tougher players on the playing field there, but Cornyn has 326 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:32,879 Speaker 1: an uphill battle. And you know, all of them in 327 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 1: matchups with various Democrats, whether veter or a Roora, Colin Allred, 328 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 1: or Joaquim Castro, those are the three Democrats they tested. 329 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 1: None of them lead any of the Republican nominees, but 330 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 1: all of them are within single digits. Even if Cornin's 331 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 1: a nominee. Clearly Paxton is the weakest candidate. He tests 332 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 1: the weakest. He only has a two point lead over all. 333 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:55,440 Speaker 1: Read So there's no doubt that the premier Republican primary 334 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 1: in the country right now is going to be this 335 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 1: Texas Senate primary. And let's just say, just as a 336 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 1: political junk, I'm here for it. It's going to be 337 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:04,200 Speaker 1: a fabulous race. I can't wait. I'm going to be 338 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:06,440 Speaker 1: going down there in the fall to get my own 339 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 1: flavor of that. But it's going to be great. Another 340 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 1: poll that came out over the last twenty four hours 341 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:13,199 Speaker 1: is one in Michigan. My friends at the Detroit at 342 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: the Chamber of Commerce put out their big pole going 343 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:19,400 Speaker 1: into mckinaw Island, which is their big political policy conference. 344 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:22,919 Speaker 1: It takes place up there on Mcina Island, which, by 345 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 1: the way, is a fabulous the one of the probably 346 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:34,480 Speaker 1: one of the best best islands that isn't surrounded by 347 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: saltwater that you can find anywhere in this hemisphere. It 348 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 1: is a fascinating place. But the whole Michigan political world 349 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 1: is going to be there, and what they found is 350 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:48,399 Speaker 1: shocking strength, I think for Mike Duggan as an independent 351 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:51,880 Speaker 1: candidate in all of the matchups. So in the gubernatorial 352 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 1: race there the mayor of Detroit is running. He's got 353 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 1: high name ID in Metro Detroit, low name ID everywhere else, 354 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:03,479 Speaker 1: but as a baseline, in every matchup, he starts in 355 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:05,920 Speaker 1: the low twenties. And it doesn't matter whether he's matched 356 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:09,399 Speaker 1: up against Jocelyn Benson, who's the runaway front runner on 357 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 1: the Democratic side, who's the current Secretary of State, or 358 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 1: John James, who's a congressman who's the runaway frontrunner on 359 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 1: the Republican side, whoever is matched up there, Dougan is 360 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 1: sitting at twenty to twenty one percent. What's interesting, he's 361 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 1: also the only candidate tested in this poll that had 362 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:29,200 Speaker 1: positive ratings among Democrats, positive ratings among independents and positive 363 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 1: ratings among Republicans. Right, Jocelyn Benson had positive ratings among 364 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 1: Democrats but not Republicans. James among Republicans but not Democrats. 365 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:44,199 Speaker 1: So I will just say this, Duggan starts out in 366 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:48,440 Speaker 1: a shockingly strong position. And again, in this idea of 367 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 1: an anti incumbency place, you're going to have a sitting 368 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 1: member of Congress who's running for governor on the Republican 369 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 1: side and a sitting statewide officeholder on the other side. 370 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 1: Him being able to sort of run again the establishments 371 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 1: of both parties is sitting there, and already voters view 372 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 1: him in a sort of less partisan way. They don't 373 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 1: see him he's a former Democrat, yet he's not somehow 374 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 1: viewed more as a Democrat by Republicans. Everybody sees him 375 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 1: more as an independent figure. The point is this dug 376 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 1: and race is real, This three way race is real. 377 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 1: Be paying attention to that, that's for sure. And then finally, 378 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 1: another poll that I want to make note of in 379 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 1: order to be dismissive of, and that is you may 380 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 1: have seen some numbers about Lindsay Graham potentially in a 381 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 1: closer than expected race. It was sort of a poll 382 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:44,240 Speaker 1: that was just released via press release only to sort 383 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:47,399 Speaker 1: of right wing media that wrote it up as if 384 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:49,680 Speaker 1: it was a serious poll. But it looked like there 385 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: was some push language in there, in meaning like, you know, 386 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 1: do you want to vote for Lindsay Graham, who's been 387 00:20:56,600 --> 00:21:00,440 Speaker 1: an entrenched incumbent for twenty five years? Do you want 388 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:04,919 Speaker 1: to vote for this fresh businessman named Lynch over here? 389 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 1: And even you know, sort of having where they clearly 390 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 1: it appears that they sort of pushed the electorate a 391 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 1: little bit or sort of created the as good of 392 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 1: conditions as you can. Graham still leads in a primary. Yes, 393 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:20,360 Speaker 1: it's under fifty percent, but he already already has Trump's endorsement. 394 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:24,280 Speaker 1: So I don't buy that South Carolina poll number. I 395 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,439 Speaker 1: certainly want to see a more legitimate polling organization to 396 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:29,879 Speaker 1: come out with another set of numbers before I will 397 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 1: buy into the idea that Lindsey Graham, who is you 398 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:36,399 Speaker 1: know in theory, has supposedly been vulnerable to a primary 399 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 1: for the last twenty years, including I'm old enough to 400 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 1: remember when a young woman named Nancy Mace planned to 401 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 1: primary him just fresh out of the citadel. So I 402 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 1: am I'll believe that when I see some more polling 403 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 1: to see it. So with that, I want to take 404 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 1: a break and when you come back, this fascinating conversation 405 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 1: how Brazil became the incubator for the Russian illegal the 406 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:09,199 Speaker 1: next Americans may have been born in Brazil. It's a 407 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:11,199 Speaker 1: weird way of putting it. Huh. Just listen to the 408 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:19,439 Speaker 1: interview and you'll get it. Well. Joining me now our 409 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:23,680 Speaker 1: two reporters from the New York Times. It's Michael Schwartz 410 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 1: and Jane Bradley. And if you're like me and we're 411 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:31,159 Speaker 1: a fan of the TV show, back when we watched 412 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 1: things on channels, I know we don't do that anymore, 413 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 1: but we used to watch things on channels. It was 414 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,959 Speaker 1: on Fax. It was called The Americans, and it was 415 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 1: about this fictitious spy program where Russian said Soviet Union 416 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 1: had infiltrated and had these sort of home grown spies 417 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:54,680 Speaker 1: and they so assimilated into American culture that no one 418 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 1: saw what they were actually up to. It's made a 419 00:22:57,760 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 1: lot of us that have watched that program very suspicious. 420 00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 1: For instance, of travel agencies, are they all just fronts? 421 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,680 Speaker 1: Since the Big Front organization, there was a travel agency well. 422 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:08,919 Speaker 1: In the New York Times earlier this month, there was 423 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 1: a fascinating story by these two reporters, Michael and Jane, 424 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 1: about a real life version of this, where it is 425 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 1: Brazil that is still apparently an incubator, if you will, 426 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:30,640 Speaker 1: for this now Russian program of essentially growing spies, getting 427 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:36,199 Speaker 1: them alternative identifications, Brazil being in a tremendous place to 428 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 1: do it, and it makes a lot of sense to 429 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,199 Speaker 1: me if you've ever spent any time in Rio. But 430 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,960 Speaker 1: the story reads like a real life like it's now, 431 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:48,679 Speaker 1: you know, the Americans twenty first century. Addition, So Michael 432 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: and Jane, welcome to the podcast, and thanks for humoring 433 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 1: me on. 434 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 3: This, thanks for having us, Thanks tov. 435 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:58,880 Speaker 1: So look and you tell me which one who's who 436 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:02,440 Speaker 1: originally had this story. I know you've worked together. One 437 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:04,200 Speaker 1: of you worked one angle, one of you worked the other. 438 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:07,880 Speaker 1: But give me, give me the sort of origin story 439 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:13,640 Speaker 1: of your tip, the reporting, and what sort of got 440 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:17,399 Speaker 1: you to the point where you started unraveling this larger story, 441 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,359 Speaker 1: obviously with the help of some sources in the Brazilian 442 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:23,119 Speaker 1: with Brazilian federal investigators. 443 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:26,720 Speaker 2: Sure you want to tell them the story? 444 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:28,359 Speaker 3: It's your tip you tell us story. 445 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 2: This story basically starts with the invasion of Ukraine by 446 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 2: Russia and twenty two. I was covering that war, but 447 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:45,440 Speaker 2: at the same time I started noticing these reports of 448 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 2: various arrests and discoveries of deep cover Russian spies all 449 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 2: over the world, in Greece and Italy, some in Latin America. 450 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:57,720 Speaker 1: And so let me pause you there. So right after 451 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:01,200 Speaker 1: the invasion, countries all over the world world, we're double checking, Hey, 452 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:03,159 Speaker 1: do we have any Russian spies in our midst is 453 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 1: that was? It? 454 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:04,159 Speaker 2: Was? 455 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,160 Speaker 1: It like almost like a global APB went out. 456 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:10,399 Speaker 2: Well, that's what That's what I wanted to know. We 457 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 2: were you know, as often happens, we sort of get 458 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 2: the information side of things and then want to dig 459 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:21,400 Speaker 2: deeper and find out what was going on here. So yeah, 460 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:26,680 Speaker 2: I said, you know, as as overtly states were banding together, 461 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:33,439 Speaker 2: banding together and imposing sanctions and cutting off a Russian 462 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 2: access to their countries, mostly in the West, I wondered 463 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 2: if there was sort of a covert spy war going on, 464 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,119 Speaker 2: where where spy services around the world We're going and 465 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:47,919 Speaker 2: trying to get uh, these Russian deep cover operatives that 466 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,680 Speaker 2: had stationed all over the world, and I started asking 467 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:52,920 Speaker 2: around about this and at some point, just the long 468 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,399 Speaker 2: story short on this and where the tip came from, 469 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,359 Speaker 2: one of my sources at one point came to me 470 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:00,919 Speaker 2: and said, oh, by the way, did you know that 471 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:04,040 Speaker 2: the Brazilians have uncovered a bunch I was operating there, 472 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,240 Speaker 2: and they're about to do this crazy thing. They're about 473 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 2: to out them to the Interpol Service, which is this 474 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,920 Speaker 2: global policing network, and basically destroyed their career. And I said, 475 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:16,320 Speaker 2: I haven't heard about that, but I know somebody who 476 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 2: knows a lot of people at Interpol, and so I 477 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 2: turned to Jane, who helped me start digging into this problem. 478 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 4: And there was an extraordinary moment at the start of 479 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,439 Speaker 4: this investigation. So it started off with four names we 480 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:32,400 Speaker 4: had that Mike had got from his source and as 481 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 4: well as some interpolse sources. It did have some connections 482 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 4: to the Brazilian police, so we asked around there as well, 483 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 4: and we had this first meeting with a key Brazilian 484 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:45,879 Speaker 4: source on this and we came away from that meeting 485 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 4: knowing there were nine names. And that was quite extraordinary 486 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 4: because at the beginning we thought, okay, you know this 487 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 4: is a pattern. 488 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 3: Here's the name of four. 489 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 4: But with nine, we decided this is a much bigger 490 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 4: story than we first thought. 491 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,119 Speaker 1: So you're sitting there it's nine. First of all, well, 492 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:04,360 Speaker 1: color me a little bit surprised that the Brazilians decided 493 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:09,320 Speaker 1: to be so aggressive against the Russians. Brazilians in some 494 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 1: ways are almost pride themselves of being unaligned, right. They 495 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:16,960 Speaker 1: love being able to say, hey, we've got good relations 496 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:20,360 Speaker 1: with the United States, with China, with Russia. They're part 497 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:25,160 Speaker 1: of the brick countries, right, the alternative economic engine, right, 498 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 1: brick standing for Brazil, Russia, Indian and China. Were you surprised, Jane, 499 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:34,120 Speaker 1: at how aggressive the Brazilian FEDS were being on this. 500 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, I was completely surprised. 501 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:42,439 Speaker 4: So for context, like my Brazilian police sources or the 502 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 4: introductions came from my interpoal reporting and reported on this election, 503 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:46,639 Speaker 4: and who. 504 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 3: Would be the new leader of Interpol, And you. 505 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,239 Speaker 4: Had the Brits running in one corner and you had 506 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 4: a Brazilian candidate Aldesuu Kuifa running in. 507 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:54,840 Speaker 3: And the corner. 508 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 4: Though, like the whole center point of the Brazilians campaign 509 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 4: was that, hey, we put politics aside, We're politically neutral, unbiased, 510 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:07,560 Speaker 4: like we will represent all countries as part of Interpol. 511 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:11,679 Speaker 3: So then, you know, when I went to the Brazilians. 512 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:15,439 Speaker 4: On after getting this tip about these spies, I didn't 513 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:17,920 Speaker 4: know whether they would talk to us honestly about it, 514 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:21,800 Speaker 4: because of the political sensitivities around speaking out about this 515 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 4: kind of thing against Russia, and the police of sources. 516 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:31,200 Speaker 4: Intelligence sources we spoke to were just incredibly open from 517 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 4: the beginning, and. 518 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 3: I think it shocked me. 519 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 4: But I think that speaks to just how honestly annoyed 520 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 4: and pissed off they were, how Russia had exploited you know, Brazilians, 521 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 4: Brazil's kind of political neutrality and the fact they tried 522 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 4: not to take sides and have been relatively friendly, and 523 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:54,200 Speaker 4: yet here they were kind of exploiting Brazilian territory to 524 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 4: train up build these curve identities for the spies before 525 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 4: they went off elsewhere. And what was also interesting is 526 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 4: when as we were chatting to the police officers, the 527 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:07,480 Speaker 4: Brazilian police officers, they all kind of explained, look, there 528 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 4: is a split between the government in Brazil and the 529 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 4: politics of Brazil and the police. We're here to do 530 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 4: the police work, but others will be more concerned politics. 531 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,200 Speaker 1: So look, the conclusion you come from this is that 532 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 1: Brazil is the main incubator, because that was what was 533 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:28,560 Speaker 1: amazing out of here. It wasn't this wasn't just about 534 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,920 Speaker 1: infiltrating Brazil. It was just Brazil was an easy place 535 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 1: to create cover identities to then launch these folks everywhere. 536 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 1: And you know when you said Brazil, I grew up 537 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 1: in Miami, and I remember the first time I went 538 00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 1: to Rio, because you have this this phenomenon in Miami, 539 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 1: which is you can't assume based on how somebody looks 540 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 1: where they're from in Miami more so than in really 541 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 1: until I went to Rio, right, which was another one 542 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 1: of these, And you know when geographic locations matter, right, 543 00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 1: And this is a very international city. It is truly 544 00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:03,479 Speaker 1: a melting pot city. Brazil's a melting pot country, just 545 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 1: like South Florida is a melting pot area. And so 546 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:08,360 Speaker 1: then when you started, when I started putting together my 547 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 1: own picture of this, you're like, actually, Brazil's a brilliant 548 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 1: place to do this because you can take any Russian 549 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 1: and sort of make a claim. Ah, they're sort of 550 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 1: half this half half half. I mean in Brazil, you're 551 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 1: a little bit of everything when it comes there, so 552 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 1: just sort of culturally in the history of the of 553 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 1: the of sort of civilization, civilized development of Brazil, it 554 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 1: ended up being brilliant. 555 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,720 Speaker 2: And I think this is something you have to understand 556 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:45,080 Speaker 2: about the Russians, and in particular as regards this spy program, 557 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 2: their legal spy program. They're planning for these things is meticulous. Sometimes, 558 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 2: you know, the the operations themselves can be botched, and 559 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:58,760 Speaker 2: sometimes spectacularly. We all remember the poisoning of Sergei Scripall, 560 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 2: where they had sort of left this highly toxic residue 561 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,720 Speaker 2: all over the place and killed somebody and really caused 562 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 2: an incredible international incident, which, by the way, is probably 563 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 2: one reason so many countries were able to so quickly 564 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 2: spring into action after the invasion is because the groundwork 565 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:21,719 Speaker 2: was laid following the Scriptball poisoning in twenty eighteen. But 566 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,480 Speaker 2: we tend to focus on their spectacular failures, but the 567 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 2: planning that these intelligence operatives put into this, and it's 568 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 2: not just the operatives themselves, it's the whole embassy apparatus 569 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,720 Speaker 2: that goes into laying the groundwork for these people to 570 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:40,160 Speaker 2: operate it's incredibly meticulous and incredibly well thought out. 571 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,560 Speaker 1: Well, and that's the thing like this, you imply that 572 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 1: this was decades in the making, not years, but decades. 573 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 4: Explain well, that's one of the things that the Brazilian 574 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 4: police are looking at. 575 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:54,160 Speaker 3: So they don't know. 576 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 4: They don't as yet, but at the end, towards the 577 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 4: end of our investigation, we checked in with our Brazilian 578 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 4: sources and in April, they had this forensic analysis come 579 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 4: back on the birth certificates of all nine Russian spies 580 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 4: who'd been using Brazilian cover identities. They all had these 581 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:16,480 Speaker 4: Brazilian birth certificates, and they were shocked because they expected 582 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:20,920 Speaker 4: the results to show that these bersertificates had been adopted, 583 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 4: they've been tampered with, that someone had come in in 584 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 4: recent years and created these fake identities. But actually what 585 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 4: the forensic analysis suggests was that there was no evidence 586 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 4: of any tampering, Like the ink was normal, the paper 587 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 4: was normal, like, there was none of the tampering the 588 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:41,720 Speaker 4: Brazilians expected to find because until that point they'd assumed 589 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:45,720 Speaker 4: they'd been working on the hypothesis that the Russians had 590 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,840 Speaker 4: managed to obtain these birth certificates through corrupt officials, like 591 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 4: Brazil is decentralized, it's open, it's vulnerable to corruption, So 592 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 4: that is what they'd expected to find. So now the 593 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:02,120 Speaker 4: focus of their investigation is how did the Russians do 594 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,400 Speaker 4: it and did they really plant these in the wake 595 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 4: of the Cold War. 596 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 1: Well, the other thing you imply in your piece was 597 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:11,479 Speaker 1: that you know it in your piece is how easy 598 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 1: it is to actually get a birth certificate in Brazil. 599 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,240 Speaker 1: Explain that. I mean, when you the minute I read that, 600 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:20,239 Speaker 1: you're like, oh, how many other countries are like this? 601 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 1: And is Brazil unique in this situation? Explain the birth 602 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 1: certificate process. 603 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 4: Well, I don't know if it's completely unique Brazil, but 604 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 4: it's definitely unusual in that. So most countries, like the US, 605 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 4: like the UK, to get a birth certificate, you need 606 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,520 Speaker 4: a signature, a witness there who's a doctor or a 607 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:41,360 Speaker 4: hospital to sign off someone from a hospital and off 608 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:43,479 Speaker 4: to say yes, this child was born here on this 609 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 4: day under this name. In Brazil, mostsive certificates are done 610 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 4: that way. But there is this kind of n niche exemption, 611 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 4: kind of a loophole of you like that allows anyone 612 00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:57,720 Speaker 4: to just present two witnesses they don't have to be 613 00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:00,000 Speaker 4: a doctor or anything like that and just say, yeah, 614 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:01,800 Speaker 4: I saw this baby. 615 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,840 Speaker 1: Two random people. You could just bring a couple of people, 616 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,719 Speaker 1: throw them some rubles. Hey, you just need to swear 617 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 1: in front of this official that you witnessed this birth. 618 00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:14,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, and they probably don't even know what they're doing. 619 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:17,800 Speaker 4: That's what the Brazilian said. And the reason that exemption 620 00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 4: exists was to accommodate these rural parts of Brazil whether 621 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,800 Speaker 4: or no doctors, are no hospitals, and babies are routinely 622 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:27,720 Speaker 4: born without without any kind of medical support. 623 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 3: But yeah, that's. 624 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,879 Speaker 4: One of the areas the I'm investigating is to try 625 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:34,440 Speaker 4: and find out was that why Brazil was targeted or 626 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:36,680 Speaker 4: was that one of the reasons why it made it 627 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:37,440 Speaker 4: a weak target. 628 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,200 Speaker 1: So your story, I assume, has probably triggered a lot 629 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:43,759 Speaker 1: of other countries to do some double takes, to do 630 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 1: some deeper dives. What are you hearing? What kind of 631 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 1: you know? Have you gotten any new tips since the 632 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:50,520 Speaker 1: peace ran? 633 00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,879 Speaker 2: What are we allowed to talk about all of it? 634 00:34:54,960 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 2: Come on, yes, yes, we have ex and we're looking 635 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:01,200 Speaker 2: into it. 636 00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:04,959 Speaker 1: Status multiple countries, I would assume. 637 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:11,600 Speaker 2: A few, in particular in Latin America. It seemed that 638 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:14,719 Speaker 2: it seems that Latin America has been a target of 639 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 2: of this type of program for the Russians for quite 640 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:19,479 Speaker 2: some time. 641 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:21,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, I got a tip for them. It's been going 642 00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:24,120 Speaker 1: on for decades. It's been going on since the fifties. 643 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:26,680 Speaker 1: Like we've been fighting a cold We fought a cold 644 00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:29,480 Speaker 1: war over this stuff in Latin America for quite some time. 645 00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:33,000 Speaker 1: I mean, how when you were working on this story, 646 00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:35,680 Speaker 1: did you work with any of the investigators that broke 647 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,840 Speaker 1: up the Ring of Americans? I want to say, was 648 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 1: that about twenty ten, twenty eleven, if memory serves, And 649 00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:47,440 Speaker 1: how similar was that program to this and were do 650 00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:49,839 Speaker 1: we know were those folks incubated in America or were 651 00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:53,000 Speaker 1: they actually incubated in other countries and then sent to America. 652 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,000 Speaker 2: So that program was a little bit different, and we 653 00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,840 Speaker 2: didn't we hadn't talked to the investigators from that for 654 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 2: this story, but it did serve as a reference for 655 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:04,240 Speaker 2: us doing our research, and it was a bit different. 656 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:09,880 Speaker 2: And you know those aside aside from a few of them, Uh, 657 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:13,279 Speaker 2: there there were a key Uh, there were a key 658 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:17,480 Speaker 2: couple who were based in Boston who indeed were incubated 659 00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 2: in fact in Canada and presented as Canadian citizens who 660 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,279 Speaker 2: then moved to Boston and really well were really well 661 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:31,600 Speaker 2: integrated into into the society in Boston. Uh. But for 662 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:36,560 Speaker 2: most of them are a significant number of those individuals 663 00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:38,719 Speaker 2: from the twenty ten case in the United States, they 664 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 2: were not posing as anybody. They were posing as Russians. 665 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,719 Speaker 2: They were they were. There was a there was one 666 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:48,880 Speaker 2: Russian student the most of Chapman was UH, and she 667 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:50,680 Speaker 2: didn't hide the fact that she was Russian, but she 668 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:54,360 Speaker 2: claimed that she was in the United States doing business. 669 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 2: And they were hiding the fact that they were spies, 670 00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:58,759 Speaker 2: of course, but they weren't hiding the fact that they 671 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:01,360 Speaker 2: were Russians. And that's why this case in Brazil was 672 00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:04,200 Speaker 2: so different, because every one of the individuals that we 673 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:08,600 Speaker 2: tracked down, their goal would come Brazilian. They wanted to 674 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:15,080 Speaker 2: shed their Russian identities and create an entire Brazilian backstory. 675 00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:18,120 Speaker 1: And the whole goal was not to infiltrate Brazil per se. 676 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:20,520 Speaker 1: It was then they were going to get. The assumption 677 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:23,640 Speaker 1: was they'd be transferred to a more useful country, correct, And. 678 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:25,960 Speaker 2: Several of them were transferred to countries. You know, one 679 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:29,920 Speaker 2: of them was posing as a researcher, a Brazilian researcher 680 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:35,200 Speaker 2: in the Norwegian Arctic. Another one went to the Middle East, 681 00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:38,280 Speaker 2: some others went to Portugal, and so yeah, their goal 682 00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:41,400 Speaker 2: was to then move on to the rest of the 683 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:47,800 Speaker 2: world and pose as Brazilians while conducting espionage for Russia. 684 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:49,480 Speaker 2: And one made it to the United States, as we 685 00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:51,680 Speaker 2: pointed out in the article, and even gone to Johns 686 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:55,040 Speaker 2: Hopkins University and was preparing to This is probably the 687 00:37:55,080 --> 00:38:01,520 Speaker 2: more successful case that of City Chef and was on 688 00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:05,840 Speaker 2: the verge of starting an internship at the Hague at 689 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:08,920 Speaker 2: the International Criminal Court, which had been incredible because it 690 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 2: was around the time that the court was starting to 691 00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:16,880 Speaker 2: open human rights war crimes cases against Russia for the 692 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:17,799 Speaker 2: war in Ukraine. 693 00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:23,160 Speaker 1: Did the Brazilian officials get any of these folks? They 694 00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:25,440 Speaker 1: were they successful in arresting any of these folks or 695 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:26,600 Speaker 1: did they all flee the country? 696 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:29,719 Speaker 4: One of them they got, so gay check us off. 697 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:32,040 Speaker 4: He is the only one they managed to get. And 698 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:35,879 Speaker 4: he was the most successful at the spies probably when 699 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:36,879 Speaker 4: they arrested him. 700 00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:39,719 Speaker 1: What makes it? What what do you when you say 701 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:41,840 Speaker 1: the most successful of the spies just because he was 702 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:45,640 Speaker 1: about to be launched to America, to the Hague. 703 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:46,640 Speaker 3: Yes, exactly. 704 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:51,080 Speaker 2: So any got a master's degree from John Hobbins University posing. 705 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:53,120 Speaker 4: As a Brazilian and he had completed like on as 706 00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:55,800 Speaker 4: these the covers spent about like seven to eight years 707 00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:59,000 Speaker 4: building their cover identities before you know, being dispatched as 708 00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:02,640 Speaker 4: by use where and Sagay had completed he'd been there 709 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:05,800 Speaker 4: about eight years right where some of the other spies 710 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:07,680 Speaker 4: seemed to have been interrupted when they were still in 711 00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:10,960 Speaker 4: the process of building their identities, like a couple in Portugal, 712 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:14,080 Speaker 4: like they had Brazilian birth certificates but hadn't yet got 713 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:17,720 Speaker 4: passports or they were trying to get citizenship elsewhere, when suddenly, 714 00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:20,680 Speaker 4: you know, these global intelligence agencies and the Brazilians kind 715 00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:22,560 Speaker 4: of jumped on them. 716 00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:24,160 Speaker 1: You may think there's a weird question, but there's a 717 00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:26,080 Speaker 1: part of me like did he do his own homework 718 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:30,000 Speaker 1: at Johns Hopkins? Was there a team of FSB operatives 719 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:32,719 Speaker 1: that like did his thesis for him? Or was he 720 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:35,319 Speaker 1: the did he do his own academic work? I mean, 721 00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:37,520 Speaker 1: I know that seems like a silly question, but you're 722 00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:41,239 Speaker 1: just curious as to how how much did they sell it? 723 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:43,480 Speaker 1: You know, did they get help with the work or 724 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:45,840 Speaker 1: do they actually do the academics themselves. 725 00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:48,640 Speaker 2: I mean, I you know, we didn't. We didn't spend 726 00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:51,360 Speaker 2: a lot of time on this case in the story, 727 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:55,000 Speaker 2: but because because some of the details are pretty well known. 728 00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:58,000 Speaker 2: But he did use his position as a student to 729 00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:01,960 Speaker 2: get close to academics who who were close to you know, 730 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:06,560 Speaker 2: the Johns Hopkins University is very uh, the professors that 731 00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:09,120 Speaker 2: are very tight with the Washington establishment. So he did 732 00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:12,279 Speaker 2: use his contacts. I can't remember off the top of 733 00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:15,520 Speaker 2: my head all of the people he was uh accused 734 00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:17,800 Speaker 2: of buddying up to, But he did use his positions 735 00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:20,880 Speaker 2: as a student to get close to people in the 736 00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:26,640 Speaker 2: government and government adjacent academics. Whether or not he did. 737 00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:29,600 Speaker 1: The thing, that's somewhat str. 738 00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:31,680 Speaker 2: And No, I know, that's it. 739 00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:34,120 Speaker 1: Like these are the questions. I hope we get one 740 00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:36,680 Speaker 1: that like will confess one day, you know, tell us 741 00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:40,920 Speaker 1: all about the program. I mean, have serving I know 742 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:44,919 Speaker 1: there has there been Has any investigative agency actually gotten 743 00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:47,280 Speaker 1: any of these folks to talk or are they almost 744 00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:52,840 Speaker 1: always like I believe we've traded some of these folks 745 00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:56,319 Speaker 1: back to the Russians as they've kidnapped Americans, so we 746 00:40:57,040 --> 00:40:59,120 Speaker 1: you know, I'm guessing we haven't broke these people. 747 00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:03,000 Speaker 2: I don't think think that they would expect a very 748 00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:06,320 Speaker 2: warm welcome back in Moscow should they eventually be traded. 749 00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:09,440 Speaker 2: If they were to spill a bunch of information because. 750 00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:11,319 Speaker 1: They got caught, well there's that right, if they were 751 00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:15,960 Speaker 1: spelling information. But did they automatically Are they automatically in 752 00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:17,400 Speaker 1: trouble just for getting caught. 753 00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:21,760 Speaker 2: We don't know of any example of anyone being punished 754 00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:25,920 Speaker 2: upon going back, I mean publicly anyway, we know that 755 00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:29,640 Speaker 2: you know, Putin, if you if we're talking about the 756 00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:34,560 Speaker 2: trade that occurred last August, that Evan Gershkovich, the Wall 757 00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:39,960 Speaker 2: Street General border two deep cover legals that we're posing 758 00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:44,520 Speaker 2: as Argentinians who are rested in Slovenia. We're part of 759 00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:48,080 Speaker 2: that swap. And you know, Putin greeted them on the 760 00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:51,719 Speaker 2: tarmac and gave one of the bouquet of flowers, and 761 00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:56,279 Speaker 2: they've been the sort of subject of glowing coverage in 762 00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:59,200 Speaker 2: the Russian media. So you know what happens behind closed doors, 763 00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:02,200 Speaker 2: got you know, got only knows. But publicly anyway, these 764 00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:04,840 Speaker 2: people are really praised and sort of you know, presented 765 00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:06,400 Speaker 2: as heroes when they get back to Russia. 766 00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:09,640 Speaker 4: One of the most interestant things for me on this 767 00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:13,279 Speaker 4: investigation is like, like Michael said, like these spies are 768 00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:17,000 Speaker 4: Putin's elite spies as premiere, like the pride and joy 769 00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:20,040 Speaker 4: of Russia, and he has this kind of romantic idea 770 00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:23,600 Speaker 4: around about them. They are held up as like, you know, 771 00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:26,640 Speaker 4: these kind of heroes, if you like, and they're promised 772 00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:29,920 Speaker 4: they when they sign up this thing that's kind of 773 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:32,760 Speaker 4: exciting life where you're going to be working abroad, serving 774 00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:35,920 Speaker 4: Mother Russia. But as part of our investigation, we kind 775 00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:40,400 Speaker 4: of got hold of some texts between a couple of 776 00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:44,560 Speaker 4: the spies, some messages from between certainly check us off 777 00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:48,080 Speaker 4: and a handler, and in particular these texts between two spies, 778 00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:55,640 Speaker 4: a guy called Schmirov and his Russian wife also had 779 00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:57,919 Speaker 4: a Brazilian girlfriend who didn't know about the Russian wife. 780 00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:01,359 Speaker 1: That was an amazing part. So here they were both 781 00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:04,480 Speaker 1: married couples doing their own thing, right, like you know, 782 00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:07,359 Speaker 1: very much right. I felt like a plot line out 783 00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:08,120 Speaker 1: of the Americans. 784 00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:11,080 Speaker 4: It did, It did, And what these tech show I 785 00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:14,000 Speaker 4: think is so interesting because you've gotten this, you know, 786 00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:16,560 Speaker 4: on the outside there's this idea of this glamorous life 787 00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:19,600 Speaker 4: of a spy that's you know, held up higher regard 788 00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:22,719 Speaker 4: and actually the tech show that's really personal and often 789 00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:27,680 Speaker 4: frustrating side not only but also maintaining a long distance relationship. 790 00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:33,319 Speaker 4: These texts basically show like Artiam complaining about his lot, 791 00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:35,480 Speaker 4: really about not being where he wanted to be in 792 00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:37,200 Speaker 4: life by his middle thirtieth year. 793 00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:40,399 Speaker 3: You know, no, no, no relationship, not where he wants 794 00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:40,560 Speaker 3: to be. 795 00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:44,960 Speaker 1: And millennials are millennial, right, no matter where what they're doing. 796 00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:47,959 Speaker 3: No, I'm just but his wife, you know, his wife. 797 00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:48,600 Speaker 3: I'm with his wife. 798 00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:51,520 Speaker 4: She basically tells him to get a grip and says, look, 799 00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:53,719 Speaker 4: this is a life life we've chosen. If you wanted 800 00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:56,360 Speaker 4: a normal family life, this is the life for you. 801 00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:00,200 Speaker 4: She does kind of say, like, yes, this life is 802 00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:03,320 Speaker 4: not as we were told. They're basically tricking people into it, 803 00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:06,800 Speaker 4: and it's bad. But we found that a really interesting 804 00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:10,520 Speaker 4: kind of contrasting image to what's kind of publicly out 805 00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:12,880 Speaker 4: there about the life of these deepcovers. 806 00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:15,239 Speaker 2: Wild to hear to at least see a bunch of 807 00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:17,400 Speaker 2: spies bitching about their employder. 808 00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:20,799 Speaker 1: Right, No, it's kind of actually it's actually reassuring. Right, 809 00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:23,880 Speaker 1: You're just like, okay, it's it's a job, right, like 810 00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:26,400 Speaker 1: you know, it's a job just like any other. You know, 811 00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:29,200 Speaker 1: you're gonna have you have a We all have a boss, right, 812 00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:31,640 Speaker 1: that's always the joke. Well, we are to report to somebody. 813 00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:35,160 Speaker 4: We all have expenses. We can't get approved. These messages 814 00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:39,480 Speaker 4: checkers off to his handler. He's asking for money for 815 00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:42,759 Speaker 4: to buy an apartment, and he's complaining about basically having 816 00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:45,479 Speaker 4: to stay with a friend of his whose wife isn't happy. 817 00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:48,360 Speaker 1: Is he paid attention to how much this war with 818 00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:51,080 Speaker 1: ukrate's costing. I mean, the Russian coffer is not doing 819 00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:52,160 Speaker 1: so well, right. 820 00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:54,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, well that's why that's why they wanted to give 821 00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:55,880 Speaker 4: him only the cheapest apartment. 822 00:44:56,360 --> 00:45:00,640 Speaker 1: Right. You got to be careful you treat your right. 823 00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:04,160 Speaker 1: So look, one of the things that I think is 824 00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:08,680 Speaker 1: one of the odder ways that we cover espionage, and 825 00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:13,279 Speaker 1: I say we the collective we is we're always very 826 00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:16,440 Speaker 1: like shocked in g whiz about what other countries do. 827 00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:19,239 Speaker 1: And then there's like no mention of what we do. 828 00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:24,520 Speaker 1: I you know, there's you know, do we do this? 829 00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:27,400 Speaker 1: Do we incubate in other countries? 830 00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:28,080 Speaker 2: You know? 831 00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:31,120 Speaker 1: In some ways America the melting pot. We're there's no 832 00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:36,799 Speaker 1: better place to recruit potential spies for infiltration into other 833 00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:38,759 Speaker 1: countries than right here in the good old US of 834 00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:43,800 Speaker 1: us of A. You know, I I think we'd be 835 00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:46,440 Speaker 1: naive to assume we don't do this. But are we 836 00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:49,000 Speaker 1: as sophisticated about it or as obsessed with it as 837 00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:49,600 Speaker 1: the Russians? 838 00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:53,440 Speaker 2: I think I think, you know, one way to think 839 00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:55,560 Speaker 2: about this as sort of an HR issue. 840 00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:00,120 Speaker 1: I just love that you just said that sentence. You 841 00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:02,320 Speaker 1: one way to look at this is like an HR issue. 842 00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:06,320 Speaker 1: I also wait to see where this is going, because 843 00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:09,200 Speaker 1: that's where I was going an HR issue. But anyway, 844 00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:10,920 Speaker 1: go tell us about healthcare benefit. 845 00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:13,000 Speaker 2: It kind of comes down to who gets to be 846 00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:15,800 Speaker 2: called what? Right in Russia, you know the it's the 847 00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:21,320 Speaker 2: officers who are the ones that are infiltrating these countries 848 00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:24,520 Speaker 2: and shedding their identities and trying to lend in with 849 00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:29,680 Speaker 2: the local population. Perhaps you know the CIA, I six, 850 00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:33,000 Speaker 2: they do some of this, but it's really hard to 851 00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:38,440 Speaker 2: become a nationality that you didn't grow up in. And 852 00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:41,719 Speaker 2: rather than spend the time, energy and resources doing that 853 00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:45,640 Speaker 2: and using their trained officers to do that they go 854 00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:52,440 Speaker 2: out and find what are called agents in the intelligence parlance. 855 00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:55,480 Speaker 2: And these are going to be locals who know the customs, 856 00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:56,520 Speaker 2: who speak the language. 857 00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:58,839 Speaker 1: You're saying, we're more likely to use a double agent. 858 00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:04,759 Speaker 2: Yeah, they would be. There's some there's confusion about the 859 00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:07,239 Speaker 2: term double agent, a double a hr again about this 860 00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:10,759 Speaker 2: working both sides. The agent is just this, just the 861 00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:15,160 Speaker 2: guy a CIA officer uses to get intelligence. They do 862 00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:15,600 Speaker 2: the ground. 863 00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:18,480 Speaker 1: You and I might call them sources. Yeah, you might 864 00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:21,680 Speaker 1: as journalists, right, you just say just a source guy 865 00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:22,200 Speaker 1: I talked to. 866 00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:26,239 Speaker 2: Yeah, he's he's our guy in the Foreign Ministry who 867 00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:28,360 Speaker 2: sits in on a meeting that I want to know about, 868 00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:31,360 Speaker 2: and you know, we meet afterwards and he tells me 869 00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:33,960 Speaker 2: about it. And I may be posing as like an 870 00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:37,960 Speaker 2: American businessman in Angola, you know, you know, you know, 871 00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:40,720 Speaker 2: doing whatever I'm doing, But really I'm a CIA officer 872 00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:44,440 Speaker 2: meeting with you know, some some you know, uh and 873 00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:47,880 Speaker 2: goal and official in the Foreign Ministry to get information 874 00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:50,000 Speaker 2: about what you know about the Russians they're meeting with, 875 00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:55,759 Speaker 2: for instance. Uh, it's it's uh, you know my my, 876 00:47:56,080 --> 00:48:00,560 Speaker 2: My Western intelligence sources assure me they don't have budgets 877 00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:09,120 Speaker 2: to devote to the kind of intensive training and time 878 00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:12,879 Speaker 2: and resources that are required to actually do the things 879 00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:15,360 Speaker 2: that the Russian illegals do, and they would say that 880 00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:17,160 Speaker 2: a lot of that is just counterproductive. 881 00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:20,759 Speaker 1: Do we think this Russian illegal program is only still 882 00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:23,560 Speaker 1: alive because it's because Putin's in charge of that country 883 00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:26,640 Speaker 1: And there's sort of a romantics He's romanticizes it because 884 00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:30,880 Speaker 1: in this day and age of communication, of technology, of frankly, 885 00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:34,000 Speaker 1: it's impossible to hide all right, right, you know, every 886 00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:38,200 Speaker 1: place is frankly under surveillance, whether your country is free 887 00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:39,880 Speaker 1: or less free. However you want to look at it, 888 00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:43,760 Speaker 1: that this really is just sort of almost like Putin 889 00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:45,279 Speaker 1: just loves this and he keeps it going. 890 00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:48,359 Speaker 2: I think that's part of it. I think I really 891 00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:52,480 Speaker 2: do think that that Putin really and he's spoken openly 892 00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:56,200 Speaker 2: about this. You know, Putin loves these spies. They are 893 00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:58,759 Speaker 2: to him kind of the patriot he is. 894 00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:01,200 Speaker 1: Right, you are? I mean, look, I mean, you know, 895 00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:03,960 Speaker 1: I love me a good political reporter that started covering 896 00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:06,520 Speaker 1: house races. Why well that's what I started to do, 897 00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:09,560 Speaker 1: right in many ways, you you know, why does Donald 898 00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:12,840 Speaker 1: Trump love other fellow real estate developers, right, he hires 899 00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:16,360 Speaker 1: them as envoys. Right. It's actually not a it's actually 900 00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:20,719 Speaker 1: a normal in some ways, a normal behavior that he 901 00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:23,160 Speaker 1: wants to lionize what he believed he did. 902 00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:27,400 Speaker 2: Even more than that, these are the people he wanted 903 00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:31,000 Speaker 2: to become and and didn't. He didn't quite measure up. 904 00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:34,040 Speaker 2: Was it good enough as an intelligence officer, And it's 905 00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:37,200 Speaker 2: sort of the people he idea. It's I think he 906 00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:40,680 Speaker 2: got into intelligence, if you read his biographies, he got 907 00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:43,120 Speaker 2: into intelligence work kind of wanting to become one of 908 00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:45,560 Speaker 2: these people, and he just sort of never measured up. 909 00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:49,920 Speaker 2: But he he lionizes them, and I think that's one 910 00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:54,000 Speaker 2: reason it keeps going though those some sources of mine 911 00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:58,520 Speaker 2: have pushed back now, particularly since the Ukraine War started, 912 00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:01,040 Speaker 2: and the origins of the legals program go back to 913 00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:03,279 Speaker 2: the Soviet Union, the very start of the Soviet Union. 914 00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:05,840 Speaker 1: Well, in fact, in this piece you imply it's possible 915 00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:09,279 Speaker 1: that the seeds of this Brazilian program goes back to 916 00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:09,840 Speaker 1: the Cold. 917 00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:13,479 Speaker 2: War, right, right, I mean the entire the entire legals 918 00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:15,799 Speaker 2: program goes back to this time when the Soviet Union 919 00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:19,480 Speaker 2: didn't have many representations, They didn't countries, didn't recognize the 920 00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:22,759 Speaker 2: Soviet Union in the years right it was founded, and. 921 00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:25,000 Speaker 1: They didn't have embassies and councilates to just sort of 922 00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:29,279 Speaker 1: house people, right, yeah, in infiltry countries, right, And you're right. 923 00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:33,640 Speaker 2: One of the extraordinary things that we haven't quite established yet, 924 00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:35,560 Speaker 2: but that we're looking into in the Brazilian government is 925 00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:38,360 Speaker 2: looking into, is that these birth certificates that are the 926 00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:41,759 Speaker 2: lynchpin of the identities that these buys have adopted in 927 00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:45,520 Speaker 2: Brazil were in fact planted in the waning days of 928 00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:48,160 Speaker 2: the Soviet Union. And this is because the forensic analysis 929 00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:50,400 Speaker 2: shows that the ink and the paper used in these 930 00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:54,160 Speaker 2: birth certificates way back right matches matches the birth certificates 931 00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:57,840 Speaker 2: that were put into these files in the eighties. And 932 00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:02,920 Speaker 2: when you talk to experts on Soviet espionage, very few 933 00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:05,440 Speaker 2: of them should I should say I have heard of 934 00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:09,040 Speaker 2: anything like this happening, but they do say that it 935 00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:16,680 Speaker 2: really fits with the modus operendi, particularly of the Soviet 936 00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:20,520 Speaker 2: KGB during the Cold War. They would do this type 937 00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:23,560 Speaker 2: of long term planning as a way essentially think of 938 00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:25,560 Speaker 2: what was going on in the late nineteen eighties. Their 939 00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:27,880 Speaker 2: entire world was crumpled, an entire edifice upon which the 940 00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:31,160 Speaker 2: KGB was built. This confrontation with the West was coming 941 00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:34,080 Speaker 2: to an end, and it's not hard to imagine an 942 00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:37,440 Speaker 2: enterprising KGB officer to saying, look, I'm going to plant 943 00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:40,879 Speaker 2: the seeds for future conflict. This is not going to last. 944 00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:44,320 Speaker 2: This experiment with democracy that we're doing. I'm going to 945 00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:47,200 Speaker 2: have the seeds so that just in case my colleagues 946 00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:49,960 Speaker 2: thirty forty years in the future can come back and have. 947 00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:55,080 Speaker 1: It's extraordinary if it was done right, the chances you 948 00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:56,080 Speaker 1: think you can prove. 949 00:51:55,920 --> 00:52:00,480 Speaker 4: That that's what the PASILI is right now, that's what 950 00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:03,719 Speaker 4: they're trying to do. But yeah, it's extraordinary, and it 951 00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:06,919 Speaker 4: would make it one of the most most extraordinary long 952 00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:10,959 Speaker 4: forward planning esperonage operations and in modern history. 953 00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:14,680 Speaker 1: I think I am curious of the Brazilian governments. You 954 00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:17,760 Speaker 1: said that there was sort of a sort of Brazilian police, 955 00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:20,520 Speaker 1: right who sort of you know, strike me. It's no 956 00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:22,759 Speaker 1: different than running into an FBI guy who goes, God 957 00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:25,440 Speaker 1: damn it. It's right and wrong. I don't care who's 958 00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:28,400 Speaker 1: in charge of me. Politically, this is wrong. I'm pursuing 959 00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:31,839 Speaker 1: it versus But I also look at this and if 960 00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:34,520 Speaker 1: you're you know, if you're a Brazilian high up in 961 00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:38,640 Speaker 1: Brazilian government, you have to realize that the world does 962 00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:41,360 Speaker 1: think that it's easy to do shady things in Brazil. 963 00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:45,479 Speaker 1: And you know that isn't a reputation as it tries 964 00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:48,320 Speaker 1: to move from third world to first world it wants 965 00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:52,719 Speaker 1: to have. So I wonder if they're actually extra motivated 966 00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:53,800 Speaker 1: to get to the bottom of this. 967 00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:56,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a good question. 968 00:52:56,480 --> 00:53:01,480 Speaker 4: And look, the police officers investigators who dug into this 969 00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:05,000 Speaker 4: the same as the same unit account intelligence unit the 970 00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:08,600 Speaker 4: federal police who investigated Bolscenaro over. 971 00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:09,360 Speaker 3: The alleged coups. 972 00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:13,040 Speaker 4: So they've got history of putting aside politics and focusing on. 973 00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:15,560 Speaker 1: And they also went after Lula too, Right, isn't this 974 00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:18,440 Speaker 1: the same? I mean, look, the rule of law. I've 975 00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:23,000 Speaker 1: had some political science colleagues of mine say, you know, hey, 976 00:53:23,239 --> 00:53:26,239 Speaker 1: you know, Brazil's rule of law is sturdier than we 977 00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:27,080 Speaker 1: give it credit for. 978 00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:30,400 Speaker 2: I think that I think that is born out in 979 00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:33,160 Speaker 2: this case. I mean it's telling we went around to 980 00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:36,719 Speaker 2: sort of the political leadership in the country before this 981 00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:39,800 Speaker 2: article came out, seeking comment, and this is just the 982 00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:42,800 Speaker 2: time when the president Lula is in Moscow for the 983 00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:47,920 Speaker 2: eightieth anniversary of the of the end of World War Two, for. 984 00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:50,840 Speaker 1: Putin's sending Trump a message at hey, I'm not afraid 985 00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:52,680 Speaker 1: of hanging out with him exactly. 986 00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:55,840 Speaker 2: And and I don't think it's any surprise that nobody 987 00:53:56,239 --> 00:53:58,200 Speaker 2: sort of on the political side got back to us 988 00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:03,359 Speaker 2: all told by visuals and nobody's gonna nobody's gonna touch 989 00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:08,320 Speaker 2: this right now while the president is in Moscow. But nobody, 990 00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:11,480 Speaker 2: as far as we're told, interfered in this investigation either. 991 00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:14,640 Speaker 4: No, And that's one point I wanted to make as well, like, yes, 992 00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:19,399 Speaker 4: you know, the fact that investigation you know, did, did 993 00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:22,279 Speaker 4: go ahead and was so successful. 994 00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:24,920 Speaker 3: And I think the Brazilians know that. Okay, they have 995 00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:26,200 Speaker 3: this reputation as being a. 996 00:54:26,239 --> 00:54:29,520 Speaker 4: Corrupt country, and here you've got this pretty extraordinary team 997 00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:35,680 Speaker 4: of cops investigating pretty you know, pretty fearlessly a case 998 00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:39,440 Speaker 4: of you know, basically Russia into exploiting Brazil. And you 999 00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:43,640 Speaker 4: have to have some level of buy in or cooperation 1000 00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:46,240 Speaker 4: or at least not obstruction, I think, from a political 1001 00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:47,160 Speaker 4: level to be able to. 1002 00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:48,520 Speaker 3: Do what they've done. 1003 00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:50,759 Speaker 1: Look, I don't know if you guys want to delve 1004 00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:52,840 Speaker 1: into this or go make David Sayger, come on and 1005 00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:56,160 Speaker 1: answer this question. But I'm half kidding, but I look 1006 00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:59,239 Speaker 1: at this program in Brazil and to me, I just say, 1007 00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:03,399 Speaker 1: once again an American failure in Latin America, that our 1008 00:55:04,120 --> 00:55:08,160 Speaker 1: inability to be full partners with Latin American countries and 1009 00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:11,399 Speaker 1: full trading partners and sort of you know, having better 1010 00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:14,239 Speaker 1: relations that in some ways we open ourselves up to 1011 00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:18,279 Speaker 1: not so friendly actors to take advantage of our sort 1012 00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:21,359 Speaker 1: of when I say, are the United States the United States? 1013 00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:23,960 Speaker 1: Sort of? I don't want to say we were dismissive 1014 00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:26,279 Speaker 1: of Latin America, but we're just never as engaged in 1015 00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:30,200 Speaker 1: Latin America as you think we should be. And and 1016 00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:33,520 Speaker 1: you do you sense any of that? And again I'm 1017 00:55:33,560 --> 00:55:36,360 Speaker 1: not asking you guys to be, you know, foreign policy 1018 00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:40,840 Speaker 1: experts here, but you're you're both covering international stories like this. 1019 00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:45,680 Speaker 1: Is this far fetched to me? Linking this or you know, 1020 00:55:45,840 --> 00:55:48,520 Speaker 1: if we had better relationship with Brazil, would we have 1021 00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:49,600 Speaker 1: seen this kind of behavior? 1022 00:55:50,640 --> 00:55:54,560 Speaker 2: I mean, I think that could be. But we'll remind 1023 00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:57,719 Speaker 2: you that this whole investigation was launched by a tip 1024 00:55:57,800 --> 00:55:58,480 Speaker 2: from the CIA. 1025 00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:03,160 Speaker 1: So interesting, Okay, so this was this was in some 1026 00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:07,120 Speaker 1: ways Americans that this was going on. Okay, well, we've 1027 00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:10,399 Speaker 1: always known this stuff was going on, right, It's it's 1028 00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:12,840 Speaker 1: choosing when they think they can act, right exactly. 1029 00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:14,239 Speaker 3: That's the interesting option. 1030 00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:17,000 Speaker 2: Well, you know, and and and and and we were 1031 00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:19,920 Speaker 2: aware of a lot of intelligence help that the Brazilians 1032 00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:24,080 Speaker 2: got when they were looking into this case. But but uh, 1033 00:56:24,520 --> 00:56:27,120 Speaker 2: you know, with with these intelligence stories, it's really difficult 1034 00:56:27,120 --> 00:56:31,520 Speaker 2: because we don't know. Oftentimes it is more advantageous for 1035 00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:35,200 Speaker 2: an intelligent service to discover the operations of an enemy 1036 00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:38,319 Speaker 2: intelligence service and just let them do. 1037 00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:40,719 Speaker 1: With don't want to expose it, right, I mean, that 1038 00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:43,719 Speaker 1: is the surprise, because you actually want to see, let's 1039 00:56:43,719 --> 00:56:46,560 Speaker 1: see what they do with this. Let's keep following these people. 1040 00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:48,440 Speaker 1: Maybe it leads to something bigger. 1041 00:56:51,080 --> 00:56:53,600 Speaker 2: And so yeah, it's always a difficult decision to expose 1042 00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:55,680 Speaker 2: one of these things because I think the tendency is 1043 00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:59,040 Speaker 2: to want to you know, the uh, the the spies 1044 00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:01,719 Speaker 2: that were arrested in the United States in twenty ten, 1045 00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:04,560 Speaker 2: the FBI had been watching them for a decade, and 1046 00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:07,960 Speaker 2: you know, you can imagine the sort of crushing psychological 1047 00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:09,799 Speaker 2: effect that had on these spies who thought that they 1048 00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:12,040 Speaker 2: were sort of operating for the Motherland for so long 1049 00:57:12,560 --> 00:57:14,759 Speaker 2: to find out that the FBI had been watching them 1050 00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:18,040 Speaker 2: for a decade of their careers. And so we don't 1051 00:57:18,120 --> 00:57:20,720 Speaker 2: really know how long the CIA and others might have 1052 00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:24,360 Speaker 2: been watching this go on, and what in fact triggered 1053 00:57:27,240 --> 00:57:30,240 Speaker 2: triggered them to act at this at this juncture. Maybe 1054 00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:32,800 Speaker 2: was the Ukraine War and in order sort of from 1055 00:57:33,200 --> 00:57:35,560 Speaker 2: politically to go after these people, like show us some 1056 00:57:35,640 --> 00:57:38,080 Speaker 2: results that you're wrapping up some of these spies. Maybe 1057 00:57:38,120 --> 00:57:40,120 Speaker 2: something else happened that caused them to move. 1058 00:57:40,400 --> 00:57:43,280 Speaker 1: But I assume you guys are pulling a lot of threads. 1059 00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:45,160 Speaker 1: What are the various threads you're trying to get at 1060 00:57:45,240 --> 00:57:47,880 Speaker 1: here to see because that, you know, it would be 1061 00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:51,520 Speaker 1: nice to know what triggered why did the CIA make 1062 00:57:51,600 --> 00:57:52,920 Speaker 1: this call? Why? 1063 00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:55,240 Speaker 2: Now, that's what the threads we're pulling. I mean, we 1064 00:57:56,080 --> 00:57:59,040 Speaker 2: you know, would desperately love to if any are listening, 1065 00:57:59,240 --> 00:58:02,280 Speaker 2: talk to any of these people. I've sent some messages 1066 00:58:02,320 --> 00:58:04,600 Speaker 2: out to numbers I think belonged to them in Russia. 1067 00:58:05,560 --> 00:58:08,160 Speaker 2: They've left me on red. Uh. 1068 00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:12,240 Speaker 1: That's a tough interview, right, because how do you know 1069 00:58:12,280 --> 00:58:14,240 Speaker 1: if they're telling you the truth or if you're being used. 1070 00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:17,080 Speaker 1: I've always found that that's a right. 1071 00:58:18,160 --> 00:58:19,040 Speaker 3: So we can figure it out. 1072 00:58:19,160 --> 00:58:22,480 Speaker 2: But I'm with you, that's a lot of our interviews. 1073 00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:25,400 Speaker 1: Not just I was just going to say that's sometimes 1074 00:58:25,440 --> 00:58:32,640 Speaker 1: domestic reporters are having this problem. But I digress. But anyway, Well, 1075 00:58:33,440 --> 00:58:37,960 Speaker 1: is this, uh, how much is this story taking up 1076 00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:41,000 Speaker 1: your bandwidth versus other stuff? And is this more of 1077 00:58:41,640 --> 00:58:43,440 Speaker 1: this is now in the rear view mirror or is 1078 00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:45,520 Speaker 1: this still this is still on your front burners? 1079 00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:48,000 Speaker 3: No, I think it's still definitely interested in this. 1080 00:58:48,200 --> 00:58:50,320 Speaker 4: Like you said, there's a lot of mysteries and unanswered 1081 00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:54,800 Speaker 4: questions around the investigation. It's funny when I'm when I 1082 00:58:54,920 --> 00:58:58,640 Speaker 4: came onto the story with with Michael, initially, he was like, 1083 00:58:59,120 --> 00:59:00,520 Speaker 4: I don't know how interest sing it is. 1084 00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:02,720 Speaker 3: He does so many spy stories that you. 1085 00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:06,360 Speaker 4: Kind of became defensitized to just how extraordinary story. 1086 00:59:06,520 --> 00:59:08,920 Speaker 1: You come in and go, oh my god, this is 1087 00:59:08,960 --> 00:59:12,640 Speaker 1: a TV show's back Who owns the rights? Right? Have 1088 00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:14,880 Speaker 1: you guys made money on that yet? No, I'm kidding. 1089 00:59:14,920 --> 00:59:20,200 Speaker 2: Allows now the New York Times, Yeah, well, well, isn't it. 1090 00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:23,120 Speaker 1: By the way they the way they parlay this stuff, 1091 00:59:23,160 --> 00:59:27,080 Speaker 1: I assume a Hulu streaming episodic show is coming soon, right, 1092 00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:29,240 Speaker 1: you know, Well, if it. 1093 00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:31,000 Speaker 4: Gets out to more any of the spies to reach 1094 00:59:31,040 --> 00:59:32,920 Speaker 4: out to us, great, But no, it is. 1095 00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:33,440 Speaker 3: It's one of them. 1096 00:59:33,480 --> 00:59:37,400 Speaker 4: It's probably the most interesting, fascinating story that I've worked on. 1097 00:59:37,480 --> 00:59:39,160 Speaker 4: And I think there's definitely, you know, like you said, 1098 00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:40,280 Speaker 4: answers to chase down. 1099 00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:41,560 Speaker 3: So we're still on it. 1100 00:59:42,680 --> 00:59:44,760 Speaker 1: So, Michael, you were in Ukraine cover in the war. 1101 00:59:44,800 --> 00:59:46,720 Speaker 1: When was the last time you were in country there? 1102 00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:51,040 Speaker 2: I was there about a year a little less a 1103 00:59:51,040 --> 00:59:53,240 Speaker 2: little less than a year ago, so so my my 1104 00:59:53,360 --> 00:59:55,160 Speaker 2: information is not as fresh. 1105 00:59:55,480 --> 00:59:58,600 Speaker 1: Right, No, And and do you expect to go back 1106 00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:01,919 Speaker 1: or how did that a few weeks I'll go back, 1107 01:00:04,440 --> 01:00:07,200 Speaker 1: I think, you know, I'd love for you to share 1108 01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:11,160 Speaker 1: sort of how does the times rotate so that you know, 1109 01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:15,120 Speaker 1: so that you know, no one person is frankly getting 1110 01:00:15,920 --> 01:00:19,760 Speaker 1: you know, getting desensitized to war at any given time, 1111 01:00:19,920 --> 01:00:21,720 Speaker 1: So how do you how do you prevent that? 1112 01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:23,880 Speaker 2: I mean, at the beginning of the war, we had 1113 01:00:23,920 --> 01:00:26,200 Speaker 2: a pretty we had a pretty regular rotation. I was 1114 01:00:26,280 --> 01:00:29,320 Speaker 2: in for about six seven weeks and then would come 1115 01:00:29,360 --> 01:00:31,560 Speaker 2: out for about three four weeks and then go back 1116 01:00:31,600 --> 01:00:35,160 Speaker 2: in again. They like you to get a break our 1117 01:00:35,240 --> 01:00:37,520 Speaker 2: bureau chief has been there since the very beginning. I 1118 01:00:37,560 --> 01:00:39,400 Speaker 2: mean he comes out as well on a rotation, but 1119 01:00:40,480 --> 01:00:42,960 Speaker 2: he's been overseeing the story since the beginning. But since then, 1120 01:00:43,280 --> 01:00:47,280 Speaker 2: I think among the original team who was reporting when 1121 01:00:47,320 --> 01:00:51,200 Speaker 2: the war started, I think only our bureau chief, Andrew 1122 01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:55,640 Speaker 2: cran is still on the story, along with our very 1123 01:00:55,680 --> 01:00:59,800 Speaker 2: many dedicated Ukrainian colleagues who live there. 1124 01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:03,840 Speaker 1: And are you guys in Russia or not? These days 1125 01:01:05,040 --> 01:01:05,760 Speaker 1: we just had. 1126 01:01:05,680 --> 01:01:08,760 Speaker 2: A couple of reporters in the country. It's it's, uh, 1127 01:01:08,960 --> 01:01:12,720 Speaker 2: it's very dicey. We normally like to go in when 1128 01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:17,240 Speaker 2: there's sort of a specific event, uh to cover, particularly 1129 01:01:17,320 --> 01:01:19,560 Speaker 2: if it's as if it's a holiday. So we had 1130 01:01:19,840 --> 01:01:24,600 Speaker 2: we had reporters in there, uh covering the May ninth, 1131 01:01:24,640 --> 01:01:26,640 Speaker 2: the victory day, uh celebration. 1132 01:01:27,120 --> 01:01:29,240 Speaker 1: In some ways, if there's a lot of eyeballs and 1133 01:01:29,320 --> 01:01:32,640 Speaker 1: it'd be it would be pretty that's pretty good form 1134 01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:35,760 Speaker 1: to Yanka reporter. You know, is that the idea that 1135 01:01:35,920 --> 01:01:38,080 Speaker 1: you would assume that I was. 1136 01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:41,000 Speaker 2: I was having these conversations, you know, in the first 1137 01:01:41,120 --> 01:01:43,360 Speaker 2: year of the war, before Evan was arrested, with our 1138 01:01:43,440 --> 01:01:45,560 Speaker 2: colleagues and with Evan as well, about sort of what 1139 01:01:46,480 --> 01:01:49,000 Speaker 2: what is possible? And what what what is impossible? And 1140 01:01:49,080 --> 01:01:52,920 Speaker 2: I think, you know, uh, we all thought, you know, 1141 01:01:53,000 --> 01:01:56,240 Speaker 2: the arrest of an American reporter is probably probably, you know, 1142 01:01:56,360 --> 01:01:59,280 Speaker 2: pretty unlikely, and so keep going in as it was 1143 01:01:59,360 --> 01:02:05,040 Speaker 2: probably uh uh probably an okay risk to take. But 1144 01:02:05,160 --> 01:02:07,720 Speaker 2: as as as evans arrest showed, you know, we were 1145 01:02:07,840 --> 01:02:08,480 Speaker 2: we were all wrong. 1146 01:02:09,080 --> 01:02:11,720 Speaker 1: Well, let me ask this, you know, get based on 1147 01:02:11,920 --> 01:02:16,280 Speaker 1: the experience, would you recommend any American to travel to 1148 01:02:16,320 --> 01:02:18,680 Speaker 1: Russia these days if you have an American. 1149 01:02:19,560 --> 01:02:22,960 Speaker 2: No, uh, and that and that's that's a different answer 1150 01:02:23,040 --> 01:02:26,720 Speaker 2: than maybe I would have given, uh, even a year 1151 01:02:27,040 --> 01:02:31,640 Speaker 2: or two ago. I think I think Evan's arrest really 1152 01:02:31,640 --> 01:02:36,760 Speaker 2: affected me. And I also think the Russian government has changed, uh, 1153 01:02:37,040 --> 01:02:39,560 Speaker 2: it has become I mean, you know, the Russian government 1154 01:02:39,640 --> 01:02:44,320 Speaker 2: is always sort of notoriously callous. They have become much 1155 01:02:44,400 --> 01:02:52,240 Speaker 2: more vicious and and and and uh difficult to barter with. Plus, 1156 01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:55,120 Speaker 2: I think at the moment we have I don't think 1157 01:02:55,120 --> 01:02:59,320 Speaker 2: I'm saying anything to sort of politically incorrect or opinion it, 1158 01:02:59,600 --> 01:03:01,720 Speaker 2: but we have at the moment an administration that I 1159 01:03:01,840 --> 01:03:05,840 Speaker 2: didn't fight very hard in the in the United States 1160 01:03:05,920 --> 01:03:08,800 Speaker 2: to get an American uh, certainly not an American reporter 1161 01:03:08,920 --> 01:03:11,240 Speaker 2: out maybe depending on the American and they might put 1162 01:03:11,240 --> 01:03:14,400 Speaker 2: some export into it. They have negotiated the release of Sudden. 1163 01:03:15,640 --> 01:03:18,000 Speaker 1: No. I mean you're You're not wrong, You're like, is 1164 01:03:18,760 --> 01:03:23,360 Speaker 1: is you know, well, this administration decide, you know, whether 1165 01:03:23,640 --> 01:03:26,960 Speaker 1: someone's friendly enough to them to help right that they 1166 01:03:27,120 --> 01:03:29,200 Speaker 1: that they make they make a decision based on that, 1167 01:03:29,400 --> 01:03:32,400 Speaker 1: not just simply based on an American citizen was was 1168 01:03:32,560 --> 01:03:36,040 Speaker 1: illegally detained. Well, look, it's a it's a great story. 1169 01:03:37,400 --> 01:03:40,720 Speaker 1: And if you, like I said it was, you you 1170 01:03:40,840 --> 01:03:43,920 Speaker 1: sit back where you did, both of you watch the Americans. 1171 01:03:44,520 --> 01:03:47,280 Speaker 3: Yes, I loved it, obsessed, loved it, all right. 1172 01:03:49,720 --> 01:03:53,240 Speaker 1: You've never seen it. Well, that's well, you know, it's funny. 1173 01:03:53,320 --> 01:03:55,280 Speaker 1: I feel that way about West Wing. I think West 1174 01:03:55,320 --> 01:03:59,840 Speaker 1: Wing's crap. I hate it. And it's because it's too 1175 01:04:00,400 --> 01:04:04,320 Speaker 1: like it it's too It isn't real. It's not reality based. 1176 01:04:04,360 --> 01:04:06,680 Speaker 1: It's sort of you know, Aaron Sork and Fantasyland, God 1177 01:04:06,720 --> 01:04:10,200 Speaker 1: bless them. And there's nothing wrong with fantasy. But people 1178 01:04:10,280 --> 01:04:12,560 Speaker 1: that got into politics thinking life is the West Wing, 1179 01:04:12,640 --> 01:04:15,800 Speaker 1: It's like, nope, go watch Veep. That's a little more realistic, 1180 01:04:16,120 --> 01:04:21,880 Speaker 1: you know, right, than than than West Wing. So I so, so, Michael, 1181 01:04:21,920 --> 01:04:25,520 Speaker 1: do you not watch are you? Because you do so 1182 01:04:25,720 --> 01:04:29,680 Speaker 1: much of this espionage beat. Has it made movies and 1183 01:04:30,040 --> 01:04:32,280 Speaker 1: programs about espionage less interesting to you? 1184 01:04:33,160 --> 01:04:35,600 Speaker 2: I think so? Yeah. I read a lot of books 1185 01:04:35,640 --> 01:04:37,600 Speaker 2: about espionage, like historic. 1186 01:04:37,400 --> 01:04:41,440 Speaker 1: The real stuff, right, yeah, but the yeah, I I 1187 01:04:42,520 --> 01:04:44,240 Speaker 1: need to, you know, draw. 1188 01:04:44,160 --> 01:04:46,640 Speaker 2: Some line where I'm thinking about other things. 1189 01:04:46,760 --> 01:04:49,600 Speaker 1: So you needed Jane on this, You needed this partnership 1190 01:04:49,680 --> 01:04:54,720 Speaker 1: to say, dude, this is an amazing story, not to sensitized. 1191 01:04:54,760 --> 01:04:54,960 Speaker 2: I think. 1192 01:04:54,960 --> 01:04:57,760 Speaker 1: I'm yeah, And it sounds like you brought in that 1193 01:04:58,000 --> 01:05:01,680 Speaker 1: that sort of you brought in the plotline joy to 1194 01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:02,480 Speaker 1: this story. 1195 01:05:02,840 --> 01:05:06,240 Speaker 3: The American since why I was living the American story. Yeah, 1196 01:05:06,320 --> 01:05:06,520 Speaker 3: that's what. 1197 01:05:08,200 --> 01:05:10,320 Speaker 4: That's the fantastic energy we've brought to it. 1198 01:05:10,840 --> 01:05:14,480 Speaker 1: Well, this is why whoever your editor is very smart 1199 01:05:14,560 --> 01:05:19,080 Speaker 1: bringing you two together. Because I couldn't put the story. 1200 01:05:19,120 --> 01:05:20,800 Speaker 1: It was one of those days You're like, I can't 1201 01:05:20,840 --> 01:05:23,120 Speaker 1: put this story down, and I think it was a 1202 01:05:23,160 --> 01:05:24,960 Speaker 1: pretty long read, and I say this, you know for 1203 01:05:25,200 --> 01:05:27,439 Speaker 1: these days for newspapers, right, and You're like, I can't 1204 01:05:27,480 --> 01:05:28,920 Speaker 1: put this down. And then I just wanted more and 1205 01:05:28,960 --> 01:05:30,560 Speaker 1: more and more. So I appreciate you guys coming on 1206 01:05:31,440 --> 01:05:32,880 Speaker 1: and humoring me on this. 1207 01:05:33,760 --> 01:05:34,560 Speaker 2: Thanks for having us. 1208 01:05:34,640 --> 01:05:35,120 Speaker 4: Thanks Jock. 1209 01:05:42,800 --> 01:05:46,840 Speaker 1: Well, I hope you enjoyed Season nine of The Americans. No, 1210 01:05:46,880 --> 01:05:49,320 Speaker 1: I'm half kidding, but you now, don't you want the 1211 01:05:49,360 --> 01:05:51,120 Speaker 1: show back? I mean, I know I've been on a 1212 01:05:51,200 --> 01:05:56,440 Speaker 1: Kerrie Russell unofficial showcase. Here, right, we had Debora khn 1213 01:05:56,560 --> 01:06:00,600 Speaker 1: talking about the diplomat. Now we're rehashing the America thanks 1214 01:06:00,640 --> 01:06:02,800 Speaker 1: to the news of the week when it comes to 1215 01:06:04,000 --> 01:06:07,920 Speaker 1: Russian illegal spies and the Brazilian government. Anyway, just a 1216 01:06:08,040 --> 01:06:09,960 Speaker 1: fascinating I can't get enough of the story. I hope 1217 01:06:09,960 --> 01:06:13,160 Speaker 1: you enjoyed it as much as I did conducting the interview. Well, 1218 01:06:13,240 --> 01:06:15,400 Speaker 1: let's do a little last Chuck, answer a few questions, 1219 01:06:15,760 --> 01:06:22,640 Speaker 1: ask Chuck. All right, Oh let's see. Oh this is great. 1220 01:06:22,680 --> 01:06:25,720 Speaker 1: This comes from Charlie L from Berlin, Germany via Montreal, Canada. 1221 01:06:26,880 --> 01:06:29,560 Speaker 1: Got it. When it comes to primaries, why is America 1222 01:06:29,600 --> 01:06:31,680 Speaker 1: stuck with a single first in the nation state? We 1223 01:06:31,760 --> 01:06:33,560 Speaker 1: see things like Super Tuesday in March, where a bunch 1224 01:06:33,560 --> 01:06:36,240 Speaker 1: of states run their primaries or caucuses in parallel. Referring 1225 01:06:36,280 --> 01:06:39,040 Speaker 1: to presidential politics here, obviously, I understand the state pride 1226 01:06:39,040 --> 01:06:40,680 Speaker 1: of going first. If I were Iowa, wouldn't want to 1227 01:06:40,680 --> 01:06:42,800 Speaker 1: give that up. But the question is whether does having 1228 01:06:42,840 --> 01:06:44,520 Speaker 1: all eyes on a single state for the first race 1229 01:06:44,640 --> 01:06:47,920 Speaker 1: ultimately help the presidential electoral process. My two cents, why 1230 01:06:48,000 --> 01:06:50,040 Speaker 1: not have Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina had all run 1231 01:06:50,080 --> 01:06:51,880 Speaker 1: on the same day. Strikes me that it would be 1232 01:06:51,920 --> 01:06:54,560 Speaker 1: a mini Super Tuesday electorally. These states are pretty comparable 1233 01:06:54,600 --> 01:06:57,280 Speaker 1: in size. They seem to represent a lot of America's facets. 1234 01:06:57,320 --> 01:06:59,360 Speaker 1: A candidate could try to aim and win just one 1235 01:06:59,480 --> 01:07:01,240 Speaker 1: or two of these aids, but anyone worth their salt 1236 01:07:01,680 --> 01:07:04,200 Speaker 1: should opt for a four state campaign. Love the new 1237 01:07:04,240 --> 01:07:07,640 Speaker 1: show look. I think it's a great thought about how 1238 01:07:07,680 --> 01:07:10,200 Speaker 1: to do that, which is those first. I completely agree 1239 01:07:10,200 --> 01:07:13,400 Speaker 1: about the first four states. If we all accept Iowa, 1240 01:07:13,480 --> 01:07:17,920 Speaker 1: New Hampshire, South Carolina, and Nevada, they all showcase different 1241 01:07:18,000 --> 01:07:23,680 Speaker 1: parts of the American electorate. Rural America, Independence are a 1242 01:07:23,840 --> 01:07:28,240 Speaker 1: huge chunk of New Hampshire voters, African Americans and Evangelical voters. 1243 01:07:28,280 --> 01:07:33,320 Speaker 1: In South Carolina, you have Latino voters and transient voters. 1244 01:07:33,360 --> 01:07:37,000 Speaker 1: Really as people migrate to Nevada all the time in there, 1245 01:07:37,160 --> 01:07:41,000 Speaker 1: and they're all small states. Look, Charlie, the most important 1246 01:07:41,400 --> 01:07:45,600 Speaker 1: thing about going first is making sure the whole theory 1247 01:07:45,680 --> 01:07:48,480 Speaker 1: of the case is of why a small state is 1248 01:07:48,640 --> 01:07:51,200 Speaker 1: to make it accessible so that a guy like Howard Dean, 1249 01:07:51,240 --> 01:07:54,520 Speaker 1: who was governor of Vermont, who didn't have the financial 1250 01:07:54,880 --> 01:07:57,800 Speaker 1: who didn't have the donor base that the governor of 1251 01:07:57,840 --> 01:08:00,600 Speaker 1: Illinois would have, you know, or the or the governor 1252 01:08:00,600 --> 01:08:03,960 Speaker 1: of California would have to actually be able to, you know, 1253 01:08:04,200 --> 01:08:08,080 Speaker 1: give have a fair shot of having voters give them 1254 01:08:08,120 --> 01:08:10,480 Speaker 1: a look. Right. This is what allowed Jimmy Carter to 1255 01:08:10,560 --> 01:08:14,200 Speaker 1: go from zero to hero. It's what allowed We've seen 1256 01:08:14,840 --> 01:08:18,920 Speaker 1: quite a few people take campaigns in Iowa and become 1257 01:08:19,040 --> 01:08:21,920 Speaker 1: national figures. Pat Robertson successfully pulled that off back in 1258 01:08:22,000 --> 01:08:25,040 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty eight. He didn't win Iowa, but he overperformed. 1259 01:08:25,080 --> 01:08:27,599 Speaker 1: He did better than expected, and it sort of put 1260 01:08:27,640 --> 01:08:29,160 Speaker 1: his name on the map and in some ways beat 1261 01:08:29,200 --> 01:08:32,360 Speaker 1: Boodagic right is the mayor of South Bend him, you know, 1262 01:08:32,800 --> 01:08:35,439 Speaker 1: essentially coming in a tie for first. I guess we 1263 01:08:35,520 --> 01:08:37,800 Speaker 1: still don't know who quite won him or Bernie, but 1264 01:08:37,920 --> 01:08:39,439 Speaker 1: the fact that he was tied for first sort of 1265 01:08:39,479 --> 01:08:41,760 Speaker 1: helped put him on the map and gave the mayor 1266 01:08:41,840 --> 01:08:45,360 Speaker 1: of South Bend Access. So the theory behind the small states, 1267 01:08:45,400 --> 01:08:47,960 Speaker 1: but you know, putting all four in the same day, 1268 01:08:49,080 --> 01:08:51,559 Speaker 1: you know that is one way to solve that problem. 1269 01:08:51,600 --> 01:08:55,760 Speaker 1: There's some constitutional state constitutional stuff in New Hampshire and 1270 01:08:55,960 --> 01:08:58,880 Speaker 1: in Iowa where they both embedded the whole first first 1271 01:08:58,960 --> 01:09:01,920 Speaker 1: in the Nation thing into their state constitutions. But you know, 1272 01:09:02,880 --> 01:09:05,200 Speaker 1: as Donald Trump has taught us, these constitutions are just 1273 01:09:05,320 --> 01:09:10,760 Speaker 1: suggestions anyway, right, I kid, I kid, Second question here 1274 01:09:11,120 --> 01:09:15,120 Speaker 1: from Beaverdale, Pennsylvania. It's Lindsay, as she notes, just outside Johnstown. 1275 01:09:15,560 --> 01:09:17,559 Speaker 1: I'm enjoining a new podcast and the freedom it clearly 1276 01:09:17,600 --> 01:09:20,400 Speaker 1: gives you to be more open about your opinions on 1277 01:09:20,479 --> 01:09:23,160 Speaker 1: various topics. Your take on faith in politics is something 1278 01:09:23,160 --> 01:09:24,880 Speaker 1: that I would love to hear you dive into further, 1279 01:09:24,920 --> 01:09:26,720 Speaker 1: particularly if we will ever get to a point where 1280 01:09:26,760 --> 01:09:29,400 Speaker 1: being religious is not required of a politician. Are there 1281 01:09:29,400 --> 01:09:32,599 Speaker 1: examples of politicians that keep their faith private or even 1282 01:09:33,080 --> 01:09:35,600 Speaker 1: or are even atheist or agnostic and still succeed in 1283 01:09:35,640 --> 01:09:38,559 Speaker 1: getting elected. Do you think America could ever elect one 1284 01:09:38,600 --> 01:09:41,040 Speaker 1: as president? I know that some argue that Donald Trump 1285 01:09:41,520 --> 01:09:43,639 Speaker 1: may not be a very religious person, but he still 1286 01:09:43,680 --> 01:09:46,519 Speaker 1: pretends to be so I don't think he should count. Look, 1287 01:09:46,560 --> 01:09:49,880 Speaker 1: I agree, I think the question is I remember, I 1288 01:09:49,960 --> 01:09:52,560 Speaker 1: think we had a poll question that indicated this that 1289 01:09:52,720 --> 01:09:57,720 Speaker 1: the we would do a round of polling. Where are you? 1290 01:09:57,880 --> 01:10:00,800 Speaker 1: Are you comfortable with this attribute? Mute or uncomfortable with 1291 01:10:00,880 --> 01:10:04,360 Speaker 1: this attribute? You know, a woman president, a gay president, 1292 01:10:04,479 --> 01:10:08,200 Speaker 1: a divorced president, a president that doesn't believe in God. 1293 01:10:09,680 --> 01:10:13,320 Speaker 1: I believe that the worst performing what if in that 1294 01:10:13,439 --> 01:10:16,760 Speaker 1: scenario was a president that doesn't believe in God? Right 1295 01:10:16,920 --> 01:10:20,320 Speaker 1: when we when we're still standing up at seventh innings 1296 01:10:20,360 --> 01:10:23,000 Speaker 1: of baseball games to God bless America and it's seen 1297 01:10:23,000 --> 01:10:26,000 Speaker 1: as a patriotic song and not necessarily as a song 1298 01:10:26,080 --> 01:10:30,320 Speaker 1: of faith. I think that tells you that you're probably 1299 01:10:30,400 --> 01:10:32,799 Speaker 1: not decided. You know, I'm I. You know, I certainly 1300 01:10:32,800 --> 01:10:35,960 Speaker 1: wouldn't be recommending to a politician. They attempt to be 1301 01:10:36,040 --> 01:10:38,320 Speaker 1: the first politician to prove that an atheist can win. 1302 01:10:40,240 --> 01:10:44,360 Speaker 1: So I think it's now, you know, I, You've You've 1303 01:10:44,400 --> 01:10:46,200 Speaker 1: probably caught I. I sort of feel like I'm not 1304 01:10:46,240 --> 01:10:50,600 Speaker 1: a very religious person, but i'm culturally you know, I 1305 01:10:50,720 --> 01:10:53,960 Speaker 1: was culturally raised Jewish, as I sort of mixed religion, 1306 01:10:53,960 --> 01:10:56,040 Speaker 1: so I was related with all the religions, which you 1307 01:10:56,080 --> 01:10:57,840 Speaker 1: could argue then was I relized with any right? But 1308 01:10:57,960 --> 01:11:01,320 Speaker 1: if I but I did my deepest eye in Judaism, 1309 01:11:01,360 --> 01:11:04,639 Speaker 1: and I raised both my kids Jewish because I wanted 1310 01:11:04,680 --> 01:11:07,200 Speaker 1: them to have a religious education. And I think the 1311 01:11:07,280 --> 01:11:10,920 Speaker 1: Old Testament is as good as any of a baseline education. 1312 01:11:11,080 --> 01:11:14,120 Speaker 1: And look, I do think religious education matters even if 1313 01:11:14,160 --> 01:11:17,360 Speaker 1: you're not a person of faith, because it's so foundational 1314 01:11:17,400 --> 01:11:20,840 Speaker 1: in music, in the arts, in literature. And yes, it 1315 01:11:20,920 --> 01:11:25,400 Speaker 1: impacts our politics. So you know, not understanding faith in 1316 01:11:26,760 --> 01:11:32,439 Speaker 1: the world will just make you understand how the world 1317 01:11:32,520 --> 01:11:36,439 Speaker 1: works less so, right, you'll be less willing to do that. 1318 01:11:36,640 --> 01:11:39,840 Speaker 1: So but no, I don't think we're there yet. I mean, 1319 01:11:40,360 --> 01:11:42,439 Speaker 1: do I think we will be by the end of 1320 01:11:42,479 --> 01:11:45,720 Speaker 1: this century? I do? You know, I think that you 1321 01:11:45,800 --> 01:11:48,680 Speaker 1: can see the trend lines. I've always said if you 1322 01:11:48,840 --> 01:11:51,919 Speaker 1: look at the number of people who call themselves religious 1323 01:11:51,920 --> 01:11:53,880 Speaker 1: in nineteen hundred versus the number of people that call 1324 01:11:53,920 --> 01:11:56,840 Speaker 1: themselves religion in two thousand, Right, And we had this 1325 01:11:57,000 --> 01:11:59,040 Speaker 1: sort of you know, if you look at it from 1326 01:11:59,200 --> 01:12:02,360 Speaker 1: over one hundred year period, it's on its way to collapse. 1327 01:12:02,439 --> 01:12:05,240 Speaker 1: Now we've seen a many religious sort of plateauing. Right, 1328 01:12:05,960 --> 01:12:09,080 Speaker 1: there had been a steady decrease in sort of people 1329 01:12:09,320 --> 01:12:12,040 Speaker 1: following organized religion, and now there seems to be a 1330 01:12:12,080 --> 01:12:16,600 Speaker 1: bit of a plateau and even some incremental upswing in 1331 01:12:16,720 --> 01:12:19,839 Speaker 1: certain groups. And I do think that our need for community, 1332 01:12:20,040 --> 01:12:23,680 Speaker 1: that faith becomes a place potentially to go. There. My 1333 01:12:23,760 --> 01:12:25,840 Speaker 1: friend John Kasik would be and argue that this is 1334 01:12:25,840 --> 01:12:27,720 Speaker 1: a good thing, that this could bring people together. And 1335 01:12:28,520 --> 01:12:30,719 Speaker 1: you know, I think we all wish if people actually 1336 01:12:30,760 --> 01:12:32,760 Speaker 1: followed the tenants of their religion, then we would be 1337 01:12:33,640 --> 01:12:36,840 Speaker 1: in a better place in this world. But you know, 1338 01:12:36,960 --> 01:12:39,799 Speaker 1: what people do in the name of religion isn't always 1339 01:12:40,400 --> 01:12:44,880 Speaker 1: following the tenants of said religion. But yeah, I don't think. 1340 01:12:46,360 --> 01:12:48,600 Speaker 1: I think you still have to have politicians pay some 1341 01:12:48,680 --> 01:12:52,720 Speaker 1: lip service, and I think, look, it's gonna Yeah, I'm 1342 01:12:52,880 --> 01:12:54,920 Speaker 1: here's a trend line that I'm curious about over the 1343 01:12:55,000 --> 01:12:58,600 Speaker 1: next twenty years. Well, we start to see Africa Americans 1344 01:12:58,680 --> 01:13:04,320 Speaker 1: divide on religion. So, for instance, in among Jewish voters, 1345 01:13:04,600 --> 01:13:07,880 Speaker 1: if you go to synagogue once a week or more, 1346 01:13:07,880 --> 01:13:12,000 Speaker 1: you're more likely to vote Republican. That's true of any faith. 1347 01:13:12,280 --> 01:13:14,200 Speaker 1: If you go months a week or more, you're more 1348 01:13:14,320 --> 01:13:16,519 Speaker 1: likely to vote on the right side of the isle 1349 01:13:16,560 --> 01:13:18,160 Speaker 1: than on the left side of The less you go 1350 01:13:18,880 --> 01:13:21,840 Speaker 1: to church, the more likely you vote on the left. 1351 01:13:22,680 --> 01:13:26,120 Speaker 1: Will we the one exception has always been religious African Americans. 1352 01:13:28,120 --> 01:13:30,599 Speaker 1: That is turning into a generational divide right where you're 1353 01:13:30,600 --> 01:13:37,680 Speaker 1: seeing younger African Americans not as not as not as 1354 01:13:38,840 --> 01:13:41,639 Speaker 1: as full intendance in the Black Church as you saw 1355 01:13:41,800 --> 01:13:44,519 Speaker 1: with previous generations. And the Black Church is sort of 1356 01:13:44,560 --> 01:13:48,400 Speaker 1: a is an very important political organizing force as well. 1357 01:13:48,560 --> 01:13:51,680 Speaker 1: So that's you know, that's something I want to watch 1358 01:13:51,760 --> 01:13:54,120 Speaker 1: for in over the next twenty or thirty years. Will 1359 01:13:54,160 --> 01:13:58,799 Speaker 1: there be a divide among African Americans on religious grounds, 1360 01:13:59,479 --> 01:14:03,160 Speaker 1: because we've seen it in every other demographic. You know, 1361 01:14:03,240 --> 01:14:06,479 Speaker 1: there's you know, the Catholic vote, you divide based on 1362 01:14:06,600 --> 01:14:08,479 Speaker 1: if you attend Mass or don't attend Mass. It's not 1363 01:14:08,560 --> 01:14:11,040 Speaker 1: whether the Catholic vote leans one way or the other right. 1364 01:14:11,200 --> 01:14:15,840 Speaker 1: It depends on how religious you really are. But we 1365 01:14:15,920 --> 01:14:19,880 Speaker 1: hadn't seen that yet impact the African American vote just yet, 1366 01:14:20,000 --> 01:14:23,400 Speaker 1: and I'm curious to see if that happens. Last question, 1367 01:14:23,479 --> 01:14:26,600 Speaker 1: this one comes from Darren in San Francisco. All the 1368 01:14:26,640 --> 01:14:29,679 Speaker 1: new revelations about Biden's decline and related shortcomings that selling 1369 01:14:29,760 --> 01:14:32,720 Speaker 1: his agenda have reminded me that after the ACA had 1370 01:14:32,760 --> 01:14:35,040 Speaker 1: barely passed and then took years to become popular, I 1371 01:14:35,160 --> 01:14:37,200 Speaker 1: was convinced that the Democrats would have learned the necessity 1372 01:14:37,240 --> 01:14:39,840 Speaker 1: of strong and sustained messaging. But during Biden's term and 1373 01:14:39,920 --> 01:14:42,960 Speaker 1: continuing into the tobacco we're in now, it's as if 1374 01:14:43,040 --> 01:14:45,840 Speaker 1: this still completely fails to register on a party wide scale. 1375 01:14:46,200 --> 01:14:48,640 Speaker 1: What do you think accounts for this pervasive cluelessness. Is 1376 01:14:48,720 --> 01:14:51,839 Speaker 1: it resigning to the fact that complicated positions and policies 1377 01:14:51,840 --> 01:14:54,800 Speaker 1: aren't easy to communicate effectively something these very smart people 1378 01:14:54,840 --> 01:14:57,200 Speaker 1: are paid to figure out how to do and or 1379 01:14:57,320 --> 01:15:00,320 Speaker 1: my theory, do they have an inexplicable content evidence in 1380 01:15:00,360 --> 01:15:02,800 Speaker 1: the average voter to reason and pay attention on their own. 1381 01:15:02,840 --> 01:15:04,840 Speaker 1: Republicans seem to have the opposite view and take full 1382 01:15:04,880 --> 01:15:07,960 Speaker 1: advantage of it. Yes, I'll simplify it even more, Darren. 1383 01:15:09,280 --> 01:15:12,400 Speaker 1: You know as a as a friend of mine likes 1384 01:15:12,439 --> 01:15:14,800 Speaker 1: to put it, Republicans try to agree with the voter. 1385 01:15:15,240 --> 01:15:18,560 Speaker 1: Democrats try to tell the voter what to believe and 1386 01:15:19,439 --> 01:15:22,479 Speaker 1: so and then in campaigns you want to be on 1387 01:15:22,520 --> 01:15:24,560 Speaker 1: the side of the voters. Versus trying to make the 1388 01:15:24,640 --> 01:15:25,719 Speaker 1: voters be on your side. 1389 01:15:25,960 --> 01:15:26,080 Speaker 2: Right. 1390 01:15:26,200 --> 01:15:29,360 Speaker 1: And I think ultimately, if I were to pinpoint the 1391 01:15:29,600 --> 01:15:34,960 Speaker 1: philosophical problem with the Democratic strategic machinery, it is just 1392 01:15:35,120 --> 01:15:37,920 Speaker 1: that it's not that they believe people. It's just that 1393 01:15:38,040 --> 01:15:40,800 Speaker 1: they believe they can always convince people that they're right 1394 01:15:41,240 --> 01:15:43,880 Speaker 1: and that they're versus Republicans go, oh, you don't like 1395 01:15:44,000 --> 01:15:46,599 Speaker 1: illegal immigration, neither do we. You don't like the cost 1396 01:15:46,640 --> 01:15:49,040 Speaker 1: of in neither do way we agree with you. Right. 1397 01:15:49,120 --> 01:15:51,240 Speaker 1: It's more of a they find a way to agree 1398 01:15:51,280 --> 01:15:54,680 Speaker 1: with the voter, and they'll do it on some you know, 1399 01:15:55,240 --> 01:15:58,320 Speaker 1: Trump jumped on the opioid issue because voters in New 1400 01:15:58,320 --> 01:16:01,000 Speaker 1: Hampshire were concerned about it. This is one of those cases. 1401 01:16:01,320 --> 01:16:04,200 Speaker 1: Democratic candidates for president in twenty fifteen and twenty sixteen 1402 01:16:04,520 --> 01:16:07,639 Speaker 1: weren't listening to the voters. Republican candidates in twenty fifteen 1403 01:16:07,680 --> 01:16:10,719 Speaker 1: and twenty sixteen New Hampshire were, and they all jumped 1404 01:16:10,760 --> 01:16:13,360 Speaker 1: on the opioid thing a lot quicker, and I think 1405 01:16:13,400 --> 01:16:16,040 Speaker 1: more effectively as far as the electorate was concerned than 1406 01:16:16,080 --> 01:16:18,680 Speaker 1: Democrats did. And it was simply just hearing, listening to 1407 01:16:18,720 --> 01:16:20,960 Speaker 1: the voters and agreeing with the voter that yes, this 1408 01:16:21,120 --> 01:16:24,760 Speaker 1: is a problem. So I think it's it's you know, 1409 01:16:24,880 --> 01:16:29,599 Speaker 1: it's sort of an even bigger anyway, I totally get 1410 01:16:29,760 --> 01:16:33,439 Speaker 1: your question. I know I'm not answering it directly, but 1411 01:16:33,600 --> 01:16:37,759 Speaker 1: I hope my view on this in essence does answer 1412 01:16:37,800 --> 01:16:40,720 Speaker 1: your question. I think it only reinforces, perhaps what you 1413 01:16:40,800 --> 01:16:44,519 Speaker 1: already believe in the messaging mess that is the Democratic 1414 01:16:44,600 --> 01:16:48,439 Speaker 1: Party these days. All right, I'm going to leave it there. 1415 01:16:48,520 --> 01:16:50,479 Speaker 1: The next time I talk to you, we will flip 1416 01:16:50,560 --> 01:16:53,960 Speaker 1: the calendar to June. I've had an incredible first sixty 1417 01:16:54,080 --> 01:16:56,400 Speaker 1: days on this run. I really appreciate everybody that is 1418 01:16:56,600 --> 01:16:59,000 Speaker 1: like subscribed all of those things. Don't forget we have 1419 01:16:59,040 --> 01:17:01,400 Speaker 1: a substack. Now we've got all these things. You can 1420 01:17:01,439 --> 01:17:03,800 Speaker 1: hear us anywhere you want. YouTube, we'd love for you 1421 01:17:03,920 --> 01:17:07,519 Speaker 1: to subscribe to the channel, everything else, Spotify, Apple, you 1422 01:17:07,640 --> 01:17:11,800 Speaker 1: name it. And if Apple isn't uploading right away, automatically 1423 01:17:12,200 --> 01:17:15,360 Speaker 1: help us inform Apple that they're messed up. This has 1424 01:17:15,400 --> 01:17:18,040 Speaker 1: been an issue. Luckily apparently we're not the only podcast 1425 01:17:18,120 --> 01:17:20,439 Speaker 1: with this issue. But please feel free to let the 1426 01:17:20,479 --> 01:17:24,200 Speaker 1: engineering team know themselves. Hey Apple, you've got a problem. 1427 01:17:24,439 --> 01:17:28,080 Speaker 1: We've done it. Maybe they'll be responsive to you, a 1428 01:17:28,080 --> 01:17:31,280 Speaker 1: little more responsive to you. So with that, I'll take 1429 01:17:31,280 --> 01:17:33,360 Speaker 1: a little respite until we upload again.