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Speaker 1: Today, June fourth is the final day to register for
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Speaker 1: Lo Morees, I'm Viosa.
Speaker 2: And I'm Mala. And today we're talking about the United
Speaker 2: States versus CO. As you guys know, over the years,
Speaker 2: as there have been celebrity cases, whether that be dep heard,
Speaker 2: Megan Thee Stallion and Tory Lanez, we have talked about
Speaker 2: the case, the issue, and the chatter surrounding it, especially
Speaker 2: when we're thinking about issues regarding feminism violence against women
Speaker 2: that have been popping up in these cases in particular.
Speaker 1: And this is obviously such a momentous case because of
Speaker 1: who P Diddy is in the culture. He has permeated
Speaker 1: culture for decades now, beyond music, fashion, reality TV. He
Speaker 1: even had an alcohol brand, so he has really had
Speaker 1: his hands in a lot of things. And we're going
Speaker 1: to be talking about all of that today.
Speaker 2: And we've seen a lot of coverage of us versus
Speaker 2: Combs all over TikTok, especially as it relates to testimony
Speaker 2: by Cassie Ventura, and we're going to talk about Cassie.
Speaker 2: We're going to talk about all that TikTok and internet chatter.
Speaker 2: But to begin just to sort of ground us in
Speaker 2: the case in what's going on. This is a federal
Speaker 2: sex trafficking and racketeering case from NBC News. Combs faces
Speaker 2: five criminal counts, one count of racketeering conspiracy, which carries
Speaker 2: a maximum sentence of life in prison, two counts of
Speaker 2: sex trafficking by force, fraud, or coercion, which carries a
Speaker 2: maximum sentence of life in prison and a mandatory minimum
Speaker 2: sentence of fifteen years in prison, and two counts of
Speaker 2: transportation to engage in prostitution, which carries a maximum sentence
Speaker 2: of ten years in prison. So important to note this
Speaker 2: is a federal case. This is the federal government filing
Speaker 2: these charges against one Sean P. Diddy Combs.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean and to get to a federal case,
Speaker 1: I mean that means it was years of him being
Speaker 1: investigated secretly until there was enough evidence against him. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And the Feds have a very very very very very
Speaker 2: high conviction rate. I think that they really wait until
Speaker 2: they have everything they could possibly need to file charges
Speaker 2: against somebody like Shaan Comms. And this is a case
Speaker 2: that was taking place all over the country, across state
Speaker 2: lines and also internationally. So for those who maybe have
Speaker 2: been wondering, like why is the case laid out the
Speaker 2: way it is, those are some of the reasons.
Speaker 1: Right, I think. Aside from p Ditty being a media mogul,
Speaker 1: a music mogul, if you will, is the relationship, the
Speaker 1: very public relationship he had with Cassie Ventura, who was
Speaker 1: a favorite of ours growing up. Right. We know Cassie
Speaker 1: Ventura as the musician, as the artist, as the singer,
Speaker 1: and she was in a long term relationship with p
Speaker 1: Diddy and was one of the first people to testify
Speaker 1: against him in court, in addition to a previous settlement
Speaker 1: that she had with him.
Speaker 2: And So for those tuning in right, maybe you were
Speaker 2: fans of Cassie, maybe you're just like finding out about
Speaker 2: who she is now because Cassie hasn't made music in
Speaker 2: a really, really, really long time. You know her as
Speaker 2: a recording artist, as a pop star, but her hit
Speaker 2: single that I think people might label her as a
Speaker 2: one hit wonder, Me and You, which came out in
Speaker 2: two thousand and six, a very long time ago. It's
Speaker 2: almost it's over twenty years at this point.
Speaker 1: Do you remember when ringback tones were a thing where
Speaker 1: you would call someone and you could hear a song playing. Yes,
Speaker 1: my ring back tone was Me and You by Cassie.
Speaker 2: She was That's almost very popular. The girlies were living
Speaker 2: for Me and You and she the video was very simple.
Speaker 2: It's her like in a dance studio by herself, you know,
Speaker 2: doing a little light choreography. Gorgeous girl. And at some point,
Speaker 2: not too long after she released Me and You, she
Speaker 2: is spending a lot of time with Ditty and eventually
Speaker 2: it's established that they're in some sort of a relationship.
Speaker 2: And they're photographed together all the time. They're at award shows,
Speaker 2: they're on red carpets, they're at clubs and premieres. She's
Speaker 2: deafinitely on his arm. But no music is coming out, right,
Speaker 2: and the year's pass and the year's pass, and of
Speaker 2: course he's this music mogul. He has at some point
Speaker 2: established himself as being this like eye for talent, this producer.
Speaker 2: He has like making the band these reality TV like
Speaker 2: music competition shows. He is like front running Danity Kane,
Speaker 2: which was a popular girl group. So he has the
Speaker 2: means to launch stars and to make music happen for
Speaker 2: aspiring artists. But Cassie, who's dating him for all these years,
Speaker 2: there's no music. And I think, as the public, we
Speaker 2: were all at one point or another just like, well,
Speaker 2: I guess, well, I guess she just isn't making music anymore.
Speaker 1: Right, there was something more insidious going on in the relationship.
Speaker 1: And it's very important to note that Cassie was very
Speaker 1: young when they first entered into their relationship, So we're
Speaker 1: talking like eighteen nineteen years old and spent almost a
Speaker 1: decade with him, right, And so to consider like maybe
Speaker 1: the manipulation that was going on, the type of grooming
Speaker 1: that was going on is also really important to contextualize
Speaker 1: their type of relationship.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think that I've really heard that term
Speaker 2: grooming with regards to Cassie and Ditty over the course
Speaker 2: of this case. I think people are recognizing the trafficking
Speaker 2: side of things. I think people are recognizing the abuse
Speaker 2: and the assault of it, all the force and the coercion.
Speaker 2: But I think the point you make is really important
Speaker 2: that she was a teenager, she was nineteen, and he
Speaker 2: was definitely like in his thirties when they started dating, right,
Speaker 2: And one of the other witnesses in this federal case
Speaker 2: testified that he at some point had heard Ditty say
Speaker 2: with regards to Cassie, she's young, she's multiple like, she's perfect.
Speaker 2: And Cassie herself, in her testimony over the course of
Speaker 2: this trial, testified to the fact that when she first
Speaker 2: started spending time with Ditty like he taught her about
Speaker 2: oral sex and about matters of sex and sexuality. I
Speaker 2: think that she was rather young and inexperienced, and so
Speaker 2: when we hear about the interpersonal side of things, how
Speaker 2: young she was. The sexual relationship that was beginning to form.
Speaker 2: But then also that she's from Connecticut and she was
Speaker 2: probably out here in LA by herself, and that she
Speaker 2: entered into a record deal with him in bad Way Records,
Speaker 2: so he had a lot of control over her professional live,
Speaker 2: her music career, and then eventually her personal life.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that is really important to note
Speaker 1: because there is that power and control and that dynamic
Speaker 1: that exists within that relationship that may not exist in
Speaker 1: every type of relationship, right, And so that I think
Speaker 1: is really important to consider when we're thinking about Cassie
Speaker 1: and her lived experience as his partner and as a person.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and as others have pointed out, Sean Combs had
Speaker 2: his family like in his home with him, Kim Porter,
Speaker 2: the mother of some of his kids, those children, but
Speaker 2: Cassie wasn't like living in the home. He was like
Speaker 2: paying for Cassie to live in a one bedroom apartment
Speaker 2: somewhere in LA And Cassie testified in court that all
Speaker 2: the year she was with him, like a decade, basically
Speaker 2: that she never met the family, She wasn't around the family,
Speaker 2: She was sort of kept separate from the family. So
Speaker 2: there was also a dynamic there of him sort of
Speaker 2: like having her on hold. And she testified also that
Speaker 2: there were times where like he would just show up
Speaker 2: at her place and let himself in, like it wasn't
Speaker 2: really her place, that she wasn't really allowed to keep
Speaker 2: him out of it, and so he just had all
Speaker 2: this access to her. And it sounds like, per her testimony,
Speaker 2: she spent a lot of time in the studio recording
Speaker 2: music that just never ever ever got released, like he
Speaker 2: was giving her busy work, like keeping her busy, but
Speaker 2: sort of just like at his dispose.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's intense. Yes, that is so intense. And this
Speaker 1: is a case that I have lightly been following, Like
Speaker 1: I've listened to other coverage. I've read other articles, but
Speaker 1: I haven't actually I haven't listened to the actual testimonies.
Speaker 2: It's a lot, it's a lot. And so this is
Speaker 2: also something that has been interesting to witness the way
Speaker 2: that the coverage has unfolded a over broadcast television. There
Speaker 2: are some news stations like ABC News They've had near
Speaker 2: constant coverage of the Ditty trial. There's a couple of
Speaker 2: podcasts out there covering the Ditty trial from different angles.
Speaker 2: And then you have like journalists who are covering the case,
Speaker 2: following the case and reporting back on TikTok on the
Speaker 2: personal accounts like Tore. Tore famously did one of those
Speaker 2: explosive interviews with R. Kelly back in the day. He's
Speaker 2: still reporting, but Tore is reporting and commenting on his
Speaker 2: own personal TikTok account. Then you have TikTok in influencers
Speaker 2: like Stephanie Sue and others who are like somehow in
Speaker 2: the courtroom.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, they have like a press badge, like a
Speaker 1: journalist's badge.
Speaker 2: Yes, And so they're going back and reporting what they're
Speaker 2: witnessing and observing, like Stephanie Sue on her podcast Rotten
Speaker 2: Mango and then also on TikTok. And then there are
Speaker 2: TikTok influencers who are giving like constant updates on the
Speaker 2: trial on TikTok. But it's unclear where they're getting their
Speaker 2: information from. If they're in the courtroom, if they know
Speaker 2: someone in the courtroom, if they're reading transcripts every day,
Speaker 2: and it's a a lot of testimony, it's like a
Speaker 2: lot to comb through. It makes me wonder like people
Speaker 2: who are not career journalists, who are not like outright
Speaker 2: getting paid to do journalism work, Like is their coverage
Speaker 2: getting them? Like are they gaining a lot of engagement?
Speaker 2: And like TikTok dollars?
Speaker 1: I would assume it's the coverage, right. I can imagine
Speaker 1: that's an incentive for some of these folks on TikTok
Speaker 1: to kind of go in and do that coverage for
Speaker 1: their own channels or platforms.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that leads into like our kind of big picture
Speaker 2: conversation for today, is these types of court cases as
Speaker 2: journalism or as entertainment I should say m hm, so
Speaker 2: that if we're not getting it through like the more
Speaker 2: traditional news channels, those updates by like you know, TV
Speaker 2: anchors on Channel four.
Speaker 1: You know, there is a type of training that goes
Speaker 1: into being a court reporter and like reporting on a case,
Speaker 1: especially of this nature where maybe people are not trauma
Speaker 1: informed and are also reporting what they're hearing or what
Speaker 1: they're seeing via other social media platforms or news outlets
Speaker 1: as well, and kind of regurgitating the information that they're seeing.
Speaker 1: And I when I hear other people talk about it,
Speaker 1: like just in general, right, not necessarily friends or family,
Speaker 1: but just the chatter right of being online, is that
Speaker 1: this case in some ways is very sensationalized because of
Speaker 1: who it is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and also like.
Speaker 1: The term we were talking about this yesterday, like the
Speaker 1: term freakof right, and how that's kind of become a
Speaker 1: part of our lexicon when it's actually describing something horrific
Speaker 1: and some type of exploitation, depending on who you were
Speaker 1: in that room. And so I think that that is
Speaker 1: also something really important, where the freak off is kind
Speaker 1: of become in some way like selecious and in some
Speaker 1: ways a joke depending on who's using it and how
Speaker 1: they're saying it, but it's actually a representation of something horrific,
Speaker 1: depending again, like who you were in that room. Don't
Speaker 1: go anywhere, locomotives. We'll be right back.
Speaker 2: And we're back with more of our episode. Notably, Sean
Speaker 2: Combs is not being charged with like a domestic violence charge.
Speaker 2: This is not a matter of Cassie going to the
Speaker 2: local police department and filing a report because he abused
Speaker 2: her in like a domestic violence context. This is the
Speaker 2: federal government filing these sex trafficking charges against him, and
Speaker 2: she's brought in as a key witness to the crime
Speaker 2: of sex trafficking right as a victim of the crime,
Speaker 2: she also was a witness to the crime, and that's
Speaker 2: the role that she's playing on the stand. So every
Speaker 2: time she's testifying about her experiences and the freak offs,
Speaker 2: she's specifically testifying as to every time she was trafficked.
Speaker 2: So every freak off is an instance of trafficking, of assault,
Speaker 2: of abuse, of coercion, and everything else that was being
Speaker 2: done to her. And it also raises the question, like
Speaker 2: all the play by plays, all the specifics about the
Speaker 2: baby oil and the male escorts that were being hired,
Speaker 2: and the wigs that she had to wear, and like
Speaker 2: the candle, like all these specifics about the way that
Speaker 2: these trafficking situations were set up, why does the public
Speaker 2: need to know? Oh? Right, do we need to know?
Speaker 2: What difference does it make if we know the specifics
Speaker 2: of how she was trafficked in a federal case like this,
Speaker 2: you know, why does that information need to be communicated?
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good point, because there are certain things
Speaker 1: that are specifically left out for the public to not know,
Speaker 1: and this is one of those things where it feels
Speaker 1: like everything is kind of being shared. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: and with each testimonial it seems like it's getting worse
Speaker 1: and worse what's being shared, and it's just available for
Speaker 1: all of us, Which goes back to the original thesis, right,
Speaker 1: that like this is part of entertainment for some people.
Speaker 2: Yes, there's like some very it's like true crime entertainment value. Yes,
Speaker 2: where it's horrifying. I can't look away. A woman is
Speaker 2: being horrifically abused, can't look away. We're gonna like comb
Speaker 2: over every detail of how it happened. This comes up
Speaker 2: every time there's a public trial with a famous woman
Speaker 2: at the center who has been abused or manipulated in
Speaker 2: some way. You know, I don't know what the solution
Speaker 2: is because there's this other piece of like there's the
Speaker 2: freedom of the press, of course, and freedom of speech,
Speaker 2: and so it's also not a matter of oh, influencers
Speaker 2: should not be spreading updates. It's more like, why are
Speaker 2: these specific updates so drive so much traffic?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: You know, and I feel like the folks reporting, No,
Speaker 2: these are the details that people are going to tune
Speaker 2: in for.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's part of that sensationalizing. We're gonna hold onto
Speaker 1: these details that we think are going to get people
Speaker 1: like riled up or going in some way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and with every new witness it also is just
Speaker 2: so it like reveals how many people were around and
Speaker 2: were witnessing or were even involved, because he was not
Speaker 2: pulling all this stuff off by himself, right, Like this
Speaker 2: is a very elaborate scheme of his that involves a
Speaker 2: lot of people in a lot of different locations for
Speaker 2: many many years. So he had assistants and staff, and
Speaker 2: there were like hotel staff everywhere they went, you know,
Speaker 2: there was security guards, there were like other people he
Speaker 2: partied with, other people he victimized. Just the sheer number
Speaker 2: of people who can speak to what they witnessed and
Speaker 2: how much of it is like really wild.
Speaker 1: That's partly why this case is so big for the public. Right.
Speaker 1: But in addition, like why the federal government is trying
Speaker 1: Shawn Combs because of the magnitude and the scope of
Speaker 1: people involved.
Speaker 2: Absolutely and like it it goes back to also like
Speaker 2: there have been over the years other times where we've
Speaker 2: heard about Seawan Combs acting out violently towards people, Like
Speaker 2: when his son was playing football at UCLA and Shawn
Speaker 2: Combs throw a kettlebell at the UCLA football coach because
Speaker 2: he was angry. He had some dispute with him over
Speaker 2: his son and how his son was being played. So
Speaker 2: he's somebody who I think everybody sort of knew for years.
Speaker 2: But he has a temper that he has violent outbursts
Speaker 2: that like his parties get out of control. Like it
Speaker 2: seemed like there were a lot of people who were
Speaker 2: in the know and in on his secrets that weren't
Speaker 2: so secret.
Speaker 1: Right I mean, And I think notably one of those
Speaker 1: people was Aubry Oda from Danny Kane, and she has
Speaker 1: been talking about Sean colmbs P ditty for twenty years.
Speaker 1: Was like sounding the alarm when she was with Danny
Speaker 1: Kane and was removed from the group that she was in,
Speaker 1: and she was part of making of the band as well.
Speaker 1: And so she in an interview with people said she
Speaker 1: does not feel vindicated because of course this is horrible,
Speaker 1: like what the victim's experience and how they were exploited.
Speaker 1: But there is like, Okay, people are finally listening to
Speaker 1: something I've been saying for twenty years.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like there's no winning here. No, there's there's
Speaker 2: no way that anybody can feel like victorious, even the
Speaker 2: people who are now coming forward and testifying a because
Speaker 2: they've probably been subpoenad, like they have to write.
Speaker 1: And that's a good thing to note too, is that
Speaker 1: Cassie Ventura was subpoenad.
Speaker 2: Yes, they're not like volunteering to go testify. You don't
Speaker 2: testify in a federal case like this unless the Feds
Speaker 2: knock on your door right until you went to show up,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 1: And that was something that I saw online too, And
Speaker 1: this is not the dominant narrative that I've seen, but
Speaker 1: I have seen a couple of these people kind of
Speaker 1: posing this question, like if you're wondering why Cassie is
Speaker 1: speaking out now even though she received a settlement, kind
Speaker 1: of like that, oh, that's not enough for you type
Speaker 1: of sentiment, right, And the answer back to that is like, well,
Speaker 1: she's being subpoenad because this is a federal case. This
Speaker 1: is not a dB case. This is not Cassie versus
Speaker 1: p Diddy. No, this is a federal case. She's a subpoenad.
Speaker 2: It's the United States, right, it's all of us versus
Speaker 2: shawan Combe.
Speaker 1: When you put it that way, it's the people. It
Speaker 1: is the people.
Speaker 2: It's the people versus shawan Combe. These were crimes against
Speaker 2: not just one person, but a slew a whole group
Speaker 2: of people, And I don't think that we really know
Speaker 2: all of the victims, no wrapped up in all of this.
Speaker 2: We know some of the big names. We know Cassie.
Speaker 2: There's a Mia now like a former personal assistant who
Speaker 2: has been testifying under a different name Mia, who also
Speaker 2: has testified to like horrible working conditions of violent outbursts
Speaker 2: that she endured from Combs, assaults that she endured from Combs.
Speaker 2: So I think that this is just the tip of
Speaker 2: the iceberg in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1: Don't go anywhere, lokamotives.
Speaker 2: We'll be right back, and we're back with more of
Speaker 2: our episode.
Speaker 1: Prior to the trial, there was a journalist who also
Speaker 1: went on record and talked about how when she was
Speaker 1: working at Vibe and was profiling Sean Combs, like how
Speaker 1: violent he was and how her computer was stolen because
Speaker 1: he didn't want the profile she was writing to be
Speaker 1: published and so like it goes back yeah, decades.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he has retaliated against a lot of people and
Speaker 2: people have been afraid of him. Kid Cutty testified talked
Speaker 2: about his relationship with Cassie and how Shawn Combs didn't
Speaker 2: like it when he found out and Kid Cutty suspects
Speaker 2: that Shawn Combs broke into his house, opened up a
Speaker 2: bunch of Christmas presents, locked his dog in a room,
Speaker 2: and then later tried to set his car on fire
Speaker 2: with a Molotov cocktail. Like, people have been really targeted
Speaker 2: by this person if they've done things that he doesn't like,
Speaker 2: which explains a lot of why there was such a
Speaker 2: bystander effect with his team, with his assistance in his
Speaker 2: security guards and people who testified to like witnessing him
Speaker 2: physically assault Cassie and other people, but they never said anything,
Speaker 2: or at least didn't say anything to Puff Daddy, like
Speaker 2: to Shawn Combs, right because they were afraid. They were
Speaker 2: afraid that they would get home or the people that
Speaker 2: they loved would get harmed. And this is how this
Speaker 2: cycle of abuse and violence continues, right, Especially a person
Speaker 2: in a position of power who pays everybody's salary, you know,
Speaker 2: who like has control over their their careers and they're
Speaker 2: under contract with him, and he maybe showers them with
Speaker 2: gifts and with perks and with niceties and things that
Speaker 2: make it so cool to work with him or to
Speaker 2: date him, and then the violent outburst happens, and it
Speaker 2: is that cycle, that cycle, and then there's threats and coercion. Well,
Speaker 2: if you leave, you're never gonna you're never gonna work
Speaker 2: in this town again. If you leave, I'm gonna release
Speaker 2: all of these tapes that I took in our freak
Speaker 2: offs or or at this party or whatever I made
Speaker 2: you do. And then the night and then the gifts
Speaker 2: come back, and you know, you're honeymooning again, and Okay,
Speaker 2: maybe it's better now, and he feels sorry, but it
Speaker 2: just continues on and on and on. So I'm sure
Speaker 2: Cassie wasn't the only one caught in that cycle with him.
Speaker 2: I'm sure even staff were caught in that cycle with him.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, And I think that you bring up the
Speaker 1: good point of like the power and control and the
Speaker 1: intimidation and the base under effect, because there were also
Speaker 1: instances during Cassie's statement that she there were times where
Speaker 1: she did consent to these quote freak offs, right, And
Speaker 1: I think that that's an important thing to note that
Speaker 1: consent can be withdrawn at any time. You know, just
Speaker 1: because you agreed to something one day does not mean
Speaker 1: you agree the next day or even that same night.
Speaker 1: That same day, and so that is something I feel
Speaker 1: like nobody's the perfect victim does not exist, right, and
Speaker 1: so to I think maybe question the validity of her
Speaker 1: experience based on maybe consenting one day and not consenting
Speaker 1: another is not appropriate, right.
Speaker 2: And it's also we have to complicate our understanding of
Speaker 2: consent because if it's consent only because you think something
Speaker 2: bad is going to happen, then that is a type
Speaker 2: of coercive environment, absolutely right, And I think one of
Speaker 2: the nuances And I'm glad that you brought up, you know,
Speaker 2: the idea of consent in this situation, because the defense,
Speaker 2: because there's so much evidence photo video and witness evidence,
Speaker 2: video evidence of his violence towards her and his coercion
Speaker 2: and his retaliation. So the defense for Shan Combs, all
Speaker 2: they can really do is establish that she consented to
Speaker 2: everything and she wanted to participate in everything. So what
Speaker 2: they're doing is looking at some of the text messages
Speaker 2: that have been entered into discovery and saying in these instances,
Speaker 2: Cassie wrote, I'm always down for freak offs. I love
Speaker 2: our freak COFs. I love our fos when we both
Speaker 2: want them, and there have been I guess over the years,
Speaker 2: moments where she wrote things like that. But then there's
Speaker 2: also entered into discovery emails that she wrote right basically
Speaker 2: pleading for him, like to love her. And she wrote
Speaker 2: emails to her mother, you know, like basically asking for help.
Speaker 2: And so it's not like you're saying it's not enough
Speaker 2: to say yes one time, especially if there's all these
Speaker 2: other things going on. Absolutely, you know, like did she
Speaker 2: really have a choice to say yes or no in
Speaker 2: her specific circumstance, I.
Speaker 1: Mean, and even thinking about like your own personal life,
Speaker 1: like there are instances where we have or I have
Speaker 1: said yes when I haven't wanted to, but I know
Speaker 1: that this is important to my partners, so I'm gonna
Speaker 1: say yes, you know. And so these are like the
Speaker 1: the small moments that happen in relationships where you know,
Speaker 1: it's really challenged, like you said, really complicating what consent means.
Speaker 1: Those that power control dynamic may not be involved in
Speaker 1: your relationship, but imagine if they are. And then the
Speaker 1: reasons that you're saying yes when you want to say no.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And per Cassie's testimony, the freak off started when
Speaker 2: she was very young. They started dating at nineteen by
Speaker 2: twenty one, twenty two. He has her engaging in these
Speaker 2: freak Offs and the way that Cassie talks about them,
Speaker 2: which is why I think they are qualifying as a
Speaker 2: type of trafficking. She talks about them like they were
Speaker 2: a job, Like at some point she was full time
Speaker 2: with the freak Offs, like multiple times a week every week.
Speaker 2: They're like benders. They're lasting two, three, four days, so
Speaker 2: she's spending her week engaging in the freak Off and
Speaker 2: then recovering from the freak Off. She's testifying to having
Speaker 2: like non stop UTIs basically for almost ten years, that
Speaker 2: like even the medication stopped working for her because it
Speaker 2: was so chronic. And she's testifying to like basically having
Speaker 2: a roster of male escorts that they were calling so
Speaker 2: often she like knew them by name right, And she
Speaker 2: describes the freak Offs being like almost like plays that
Speaker 2: Diddy was directing, and there's acts and there's scenes and
Speaker 2: their sessions, and she talks about it like a straight
Speaker 2: up job, and that she was basically a sex worker
Speaker 2: for him after a while. And if you think about
Speaker 2: when it started, how she was so young and then
Speaker 2: it kept going for all of her twenties. Basically, you know,
Speaker 2: there's no way that like that was her dream for
Speaker 2: herself and that's what she wanted for herself absolutely, you know.
Speaker 2: But she's under this ten album contract with Ditty and
Speaker 2: she wants to make her music. And the place that
Speaker 2: she lives is also like he's paying for it. You know,
Speaker 2: her family is across the country. It seemed like she
Speaker 2: was genuinely afraid to say no.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean that really hits all the points of
Speaker 1: the power and control, right, the intimidation, the isolation, the
Speaker 1: economic abuse, all of it.
Speaker 2: I think something to note too is there's different types
Speaker 2: of like human traffickers and pimps. Like I think people
Speaker 2: think of trafficking and they maybe think, I don't know,
Speaker 2: like narcos or like women who are like working on
Speaker 2: the street, right, But there's a lot of different ways
Speaker 2: that women become trafficked. And so a few years ago
Speaker 2: I participated in this like human trafficking training by this
Speaker 2: anti trafficking organization called the Polaris Project, and they did
Speaker 2: a big study about second trafficking between Mexico and the
Speaker 2: United States. And something that I learned in that sex
Speaker 2: trafficking training is that one of the types of traffickers
Speaker 2: is called like a boyfriend trafficker, and the way that
Speaker 2: you get involved with the boyfriend trafficker is through like
Speaker 2: dating and love and romance, and they romance you and
Speaker 2: it's the honeymoon phase and their person and they are
Speaker 2: your boyfriend and you are dating and it is romantic.
Speaker 2: Eventually that boyfriend says, well, if you love me, then
Speaker 2: you'll do this for me. You know, you'll take this
Speaker 2: package for me and you'll like transport it through the airport,
Speaker 2: or you're going to do this little task for me,
Speaker 2: or you're going to sleep with this person for money,
Speaker 2: and it escalates until before you know it, you're in
Speaker 2: a full on trafficking situation. And it sounds like this
Speaker 2: is what happened with Cassie because she talks about being
Speaker 2: in love with him and loving him and them being
Speaker 2: like an item. So it sounds like he like boyfriended her,
Speaker 2: exploited her into sexual exploitation.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a lot.
Speaker 2: It is a lot. It's fucked up, and our hearts
Speaker 2: go out to Cassie, who is very pregnant also by
Speaker 2: the way, while she's testifying.
Speaker 1: With her third child with her third child.
Speaker 2: By her husband, Alex Fine, formerly personal trainer to both
Speaker 2: her and Shawn Combs.
Speaker 1: Oh, I don't think I knew that Shawn.
Speaker 2: Combs hired Alex Fine to train them and is shortly thereafter,
Speaker 2: you know, Cassie and Alex Fine start to develop feelings
Speaker 2: for one another. She ends her thing with Diddy somehow,
Speaker 2: she like is able to get out of it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: not unscathed. Right, there were assaults and abuse and all
Speaker 2: kinds of stalking going on. But now she's married and
Speaker 2: she has her third baby on the way with her husband.
Speaker 2: This has also been interesting because as she's been testifying,
Speaker 2: her husband has been in the courtroom. Yes, so of course,
Speaker 2: what's the commentary about her.
Speaker 1: Husband she has to listen to, Well, what she quote did,
Speaker 1: what she did, not what she was put through, not
Speaker 1: how she was exploited, but her poor husband.
Speaker 2: Her poor husband, and what do we think about that?
Speaker 2: Because it's like it's like this is so classic.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, right, I mean one patriarchy, one oh one
Speaker 1: rape culture, Like you know, it's it's horrible, and but
Speaker 1: it's also not surprising, right to hear that type of
Speaker 1: commentary like, oh, her, it's still centering the man of
Speaker 1: the poor husband, not poor Cassie, and she has to relive,
Speaker 1: be re traumatized and recount these details of a decade.
Speaker 1: But her poor husband, let's deflect, Yeah, and he has
Speaker 1: to hear this.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And so depending on who you are, then it's
Speaker 2: because there are still Ditty supporters for sure. Not everybody
Speaker 2: is like is not not everybody is denouncing him and
Speaker 2: his actions, I mean, and.
Speaker 1: That is is I think the history of any male
Speaker 1: celeb or someone of his caliber, right, even R Kelly
Speaker 1: like still has supporters. Oh yeah, right, Bill Cosby still
Speaker 1: has supporters. Notably, these are three black men, right, and
Speaker 1: so the racial dynamic is obviously very important when talking
Speaker 1: about this Johnny Depp, Johnny Depp has a lot of supporters,
Speaker 1: Kit Scott supporters, and poor amberhard was villainized so much.
Speaker 1: We also have an episode on that because that case,
Speaker 1: I feel to me that was one of the first
Speaker 1: examples of like a TikTok case. Yes, was Amber heard
Speaker 1: versus Johnny Depp? Yeah, which it wasn't even versus them.
Speaker 1: It was a libel case, right, but it was positioned
Speaker 1: on social media as like Amber versus Johnny.
Speaker 2: It was positioned that way. And in both of these
Speaker 2: cases it's so easy for the for a viewer who
Speaker 2: hasn't like looked into it because of the rape culture,
Speaker 2: because of the misogyny. Immediately, it's oh, Amber and Cassie
Speaker 2: like trying to destroy these men and bring them down,
Speaker 2: and why are they speaking up now? Johnny Depp filed
Speaker 2: a lawsuit against Amber heard Relibel because of an essay
Speaker 2: that she wrote that did not name him no, and
Speaker 2: then with this one it's the federal government bringing them
Speaker 2: to court. But in both instances, it's like this woman
Speaker 2: at the center, who has been horribly brutalized, is like
Speaker 2: at fault for something always, always.
Speaker 1: Always, I mean, And it goes to show that like
Speaker 1: there hasn't been a reckoning, a me too reckoning for
Speaker 1: all communities or subsets of the culture. Right. We saw
Speaker 1: it with the film industry in some capacity. We haven't
Speaker 1: necessarily seen it with hip hop and arts hip hop
Speaker 1: and music.
Speaker 2: In the music industry, right, And so.
Speaker 1: It's that that I don't know if it's a ripple effect,
Speaker 1: but it's like, not everyone has had their like their
Speaker 1: me too reckoning, Not each industry has had it yet.
Speaker 1: And in some ways this is a type of reckoning
Speaker 1: because of how big Shawn Combs is and how influential
Speaker 1: he's been in the culture for decades. But this is
Speaker 1: like just the tip of the iceberg, and it's gonna
Speaker 1: take like other people in the industry to actually like
Speaker 1: not just be the bystanders and be like active in
Speaker 1: calling this out exactly before it gets to this point
Speaker 1: exactly exactly.
Speaker 2: And you know this hunger to like make it by
Speaker 2: any means necessary, to like get on and to be successful.
Speaker 2: I also think that that insane hunger to like get
Speaker 2: ahead in the industry drives so much of this this
Speaker 2: issue because whether we're talking about the staff right that
Speaker 2: maybe is like experiencing some like bystander effect and not
Speaker 2: acting because of all the reasons we've talked about, Like
Speaker 2: they're nervous, they have their own careers, they fear retaliation,
Speaker 2: they want to be successful in what they're doing, that
Speaker 2: maybe this has been a big break for them, right.
Speaker 2: And then there's the talent at the center of it,
Speaker 2: and like young talent, impressionable talent you know, from all
Speaker 2: over the place, from different places coming out here in
Speaker 2: these instances to la like chasing a dream and then yeah,
Speaker 2: you think you got your big break, this huge mogul
Speaker 2: has taken a liking to you, but now you're like
Speaker 2: in their clutches and p did he also having been
Speaker 2: linked to some dubious like behavior with Usher, a young
Speaker 2: Usher right when Usher was like sent to like Puffy's
Speaker 2: flavor camp, to like live with puff Daddy when Usher
Speaker 2: was a child. And also Justin Bieber also being linked
Speaker 2: to like nefarious shit with puff Daddy when he was
Speaker 2: a child.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it really does put going back to these like
Speaker 1: crashouts in our previous episode. It really does put maybe
Speaker 1: a Justin Bieber into a different context in light you know,
Speaker 1: he was a child star and what type of exploitation
Speaker 1: did he experience in the industry.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's one thing for adults even to be
Speaker 2: in these like wild ditty parties, but I feel like
Speaker 2: these kids were there too, you know. And so this
Speaker 2: is like this person has caused like multi generational harm
Speaker 2: when we think about the age range of these different
Speaker 2: people who have been in his who have been in
Speaker 2: his reach. So it really is a wild time decades
Speaker 2: in the making. Yeah, decades in the making. And it
Speaker 2: kind of seems like unfortunately in cases like this, one
Speaker 2: victim is like never enough. Yeah, it's almost like there
Speaker 2: has to be.
Speaker 1: There's definitely pile up absolutely.
Speaker 2: Before action is taken. Thank you all for listening. This
Speaker 2: has been a particularly heavy episode. This case United States
Speaker 2: versus Combs is still all over the news and social media,
Speaker 2: and I anticipate that it will be for some time,
Speaker 2: even after the trial ends. So please give yourself a
Speaker 2: break from scrolling, from taking in this information, and if
Speaker 2: you need resources, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline
Speaker 2: one eight hundred seven nine nine Safe one eight hundred
Speaker 2: seven nine nine Safe and the National Human Trafficking Hotline
Speaker 2: which is at one eight eight eight three seven three
Speaker 2: seven eight eight eight.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to another episode of lok at
Speaker 1: Dora Radio. I want to reiterate what Mala said. Please
Speaker 1: take care of yourselves, take a scrolling break, check in
Speaker 1: with your friends, check in with yourself, with your body, hydrate,
Speaker 1: and we will catch you next time.
Speaker 2: Thanks you, Thos.
Speaker 1: Lokata Radio is executive produced by Yosa Fem and Mala Munjos.
Speaker 2: Stephanie Franco is our producer.
Speaker 1: Story editing by Medosa.
Speaker 2: Creative direction by me Mala.
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Speaker 1: Dura podcast Network.
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Speaker 1: Besitos