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Speaker 1: We are launching a podcasting course starting Thursday, June fifth,

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Speaker 1: and it's five weeks long and we're going to be

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Speaker 1: giving in real time feedback to anyone that wants to

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Speaker 1: develop their own podcast. If you're an aspiring podcaster or

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Speaker 1: even an established one that wants an extra set of

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Speaker 1: eyes and ears on your podcast, this is the course

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Speaker 1: for you.

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Speaker 2: We are sort of reviving our podcasting course that we

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Speaker 2: used to teach with the LA Public Library in person

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Speaker 2: and adapting it for digital. So this course is available

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Speaker 2: on teachable. You can check out our website our Instagram

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Speaker 2: account at locat Productions because this is under our production

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Speaker 2: company for more information.

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Speaker 1: Today, June fourth is the final day to register for

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Speaker 1: our first ever digital podcasting course, so head to our

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Speaker 1: instagram at locat our Productions to register already. Ola Hola

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Speaker 1: Lo Morees, I'm Viosa.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Mala. And today we're talking about the United

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Speaker 2: States versus CO. As you guys know, over the years,

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Speaker 2: as there have been celebrity cases, whether that be dep heard,

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Speaker 2: Megan Thee Stallion and Tory Lanez, we have talked about

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Speaker 2: the case, the issue, and the chatter surrounding it, especially

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Speaker 2: when we're thinking about issues regarding feminism violence against women

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Speaker 2: that have been popping up in these cases in particular.

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Speaker 1: And this is obviously such a momentous case because of

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Speaker 1: who P Diddy is in the culture. He has permeated

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Speaker 1: culture for decades now, beyond music, fashion, reality TV. He

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Speaker 1: even had an alcohol brand, so he has really had

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Speaker 1: his hands in a lot of things. And we're going

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Speaker 1: to be talking about all of that today.

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Speaker 2: And we've seen a lot of coverage of us versus

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Speaker 2: Combs all over TikTok, especially as it relates to testimony

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Speaker 2: by Cassie Ventura, and we're going to talk about Cassie.

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Speaker 2: We're going to talk about all that TikTok and internet chatter.

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Speaker 2: But to begin just to sort of ground us in

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Speaker 2: the case in what's going on. This is a federal

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Speaker 2: sex trafficking and racketeering case from NBC News. Combs faces

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Speaker 2: five criminal counts, one count of racketeering conspiracy, which carries

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Speaker 2: a maximum sentence of life in prison, two counts of

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Speaker 2: sex trafficking by force, fraud, or coercion, which carries a

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Speaker 2: maximum sentence of life in prison and a mandatory minimum

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Speaker 2: sentence of fifteen years in prison, and two counts of

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Speaker 2: transportation to engage in prostitution, which carries a maximum sentence

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Speaker 2: of ten years in prison. So important to note this

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Speaker 2: is a federal case. This is the federal government filing

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Speaker 2: these charges against one Sean P. Diddy Combs.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean and to get to a federal case,

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Speaker 1: I mean that means it was years of him being

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Speaker 1: investigated secretly until there was enough evidence against him. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And the Feds have a very very very very very

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Speaker 2: high conviction rate. I think that they really wait until

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Speaker 2: they have everything they could possibly need to file charges

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Speaker 2: against somebody like Shaan Comms. And this is a case

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Speaker 2: that was taking place all over the country, across state

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Speaker 2: lines and also internationally. So for those who maybe have

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Speaker 2: been wondering, like why is the case laid out the

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Speaker 2: way it is, those are some of the reasons.

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Speaker 1: Right, I think. Aside from p Ditty being a media mogul,

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Speaker 1: a music mogul, if you will, is the relationship, the

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Speaker 1: very public relationship he had with Cassie Ventura, who was

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Speaker 1: a favorite of ours growing up. Right. We know Cassie

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Speaker 1: Ventura as the musician, as the artist, as the singer,

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Speaker 1: and she was in a long term relationship with p

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Speaker 1: Diddy and was one of the first people to testify

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Speaker 1: against him in court, in addition to a previous settlement

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Speaker 1: that she had with him.

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Speaker 2: And So for those tuning in right, maybe you were

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Speaker 2: fans of Cassie, maybe you're just like finding out about

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Speaker 2: who she is now because Cassie hasn't made music in

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Speaker 2: a really, really, really long time. You know her as

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Speaker 2: a recording artist, as a pop star, but her hit

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Speaker 2: single that I think people might label her as a

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Speaker 2: one hit wonder, Me and You, which came out in

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Speaker 2: two thousand and six, a very long time ago. It's

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Speaker 2: almost it's over twenty years at this point.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember when ringback tones were a thing where

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Speaker 1: you would call someone and you could hear a song playing. Yes,

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Speaker 1: my ring back tone was Me and You by Cassie.

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Speaker 2: She was That's almost very popular. The girlies were living

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Speaker 2: for Me and You and she the video was very simple.

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Speaker 2: It's her like in a dance studio by herself, you know,

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Speaker 2: doing a little light choreography. Gorgeous girl. And at some point,

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Speaker 2: not too long after she released Me and You, she

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Speaker 2: is spending a lot of time with Ditty and eventually

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Speaker 2: it's established that they're in some sort of a relationship.

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Speaker 2: And they're photographed together all the time. They're at award shows,

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Speaker 2: they're on red carpets, they're at clubs and premieres. She's

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Speaker 2: deafinitely on his arm. But no music is coming out, right,

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Speaker 2: and the year's pass and the year's pass, and of

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Speaker 2: course he's this music mogul. He has at some point

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Speaker 2: established himself as being this like eye for talent, this producer.

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Speaker 2: He has like making the band these reality TV like

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Speaker 2: music competition shows. He is like front running Danity Kane,

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Speaker 2: which was a popular girl group. So he has the

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Speaker 2: means to launch stars and to make music happen for

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Speaker 2: aspiring artists. But Cassie, who's dating him for all these years,

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Speaker 2: there's no music. And I think, as the public, we

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Speaker 2: were all at one point or another just like, well,

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Speaker 2: I guess, well, I guess she just isn't making music anymore.

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Speaker 1: Right, there was something more insidious going on in the relationship.

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Speaker 1: And it's very important to note that Cassie was very

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Speaker 1: young when they first entered into their relationship, So we're

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Speaker 1: talking like eighteen nineteen years old and spent almost a

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Speaker 1: decade with him, right, And so to consider like maybe

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Speaker 1: the manipulation that was going on, the type of grooming

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Speaker 1: that was going on is also really important to contextualize

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Speaker 1: their type of relationship.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think that I've really heard that term

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Speaker 2: grooming with regards to Cassie and Ditty over the course

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Speaker 2: of this case. I think people are recognizing the trafficking

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Speaker 2: side of things. I think people are recognizing the abuse

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Speaker 2: and the assault of it, all the force and the coercion.

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Speaker 2: But I think the point you make is really important

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Speaker 2: that she was a teenager, she was nineteen, and he

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Speaker 2: was definitely like in his thirties when they started dating, right,

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Speaker 2: And one of the other witnesses in this federal case

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Speaker 2: testified that he at some point had heard Ditty say

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Speaker 2: with regards to Cassie, she's young, she's multiple like, she's perfect.

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Speaker 2: And Cassie herself, in her testimony over the course of

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Speaker 2: this trial, testified to the fact that when she first

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Speaker 2: started spending time with Ditty like he taught her about

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Speaker 2: oral sex and about matters of sex and sexuality. I

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Speaker 2: think that she was rather young and inexperienced, and so

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Speaker 2: when we hear about the interpersonal side of things, how

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Speaker 2: young she was. The sexual relationship that was beginning to form.

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Speaker 2: But then also that she's from Connecticut and she was

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Speaker 2: probably out here in LA by herself, and that she

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Speaker 2: entered into a record deal with him in bad Way Records,

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Speaker 2: so he had a lot of control over her professional live,

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Speaker 2: her music career, and then eventually her personal life.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that is really important to note

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Speaker 1: because there is that power and control and that dynamic

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Speaker 1: that exists within that relationship that may not exist in

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Speaker 1: every type of relationship, right, And so that I think

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Speaker 1: is really important to consider when we're thinking about Cassie

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Speaker 1: and her lived experience as his partner and as a person.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, and as others have pointed out, Sean Combs had

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Speaker 2: his family like in his home with him, Kim Porter,

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Speaker 2: the mother of some of his kids, those children, but

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Speaker 2: Cassie wasn't like living in the home. He was like

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Speaker 2: paying for Cassie to live in a one bedroom apartment

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Speaker 2: somewhere in LA And Cassie testified in court that all

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Speaker 2: the year she was with him, like a decade, basically

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Speaker 2: that she never met the family, She wasn't around the family,

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Speaker 2: She was sort of kept separate from the family. So

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Speaker 2: there was also a dynamic there of him sort of

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Speaker 2: like having her on hold. And she testified also that

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Speaker 2: there were times where like he would just show up

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Speaker 2: at her place and let himself in, like it wasn't

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Speaker 2: really her place, that she wasn't really allowed to keep

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Speaker 2: him out of it, and so he just had all

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Speaker 2: this access to her. And it sounds like, per her testimony,

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Speaker 2: she spent a lot of time in the studio recording

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Speaker 2: music that just never ever ever got released, like he

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Speaker 2: was giving her busy work, like keeping her busy, but

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Speaker 2: sort of just like at his dispose.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's intense. Yes, that is so intense. And this

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Speaker 1: is a case that I have lightly been following, Like

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Speaker 1: I've listened to other coverage. I've read other articles, but

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Speaker 1: I haven't actually I haven't listened to the actual testimonies.

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Speaker 2: It's a lot, it's a lot. And so this is

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Speaker 2: also something that has been interesting to witness the way

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Speaker 2: that the coverage has unfolded a over broadcast television. There

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Speaker 2: are some news stations like ABC News They've had near

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Speaker 2: constant coverage of the Ditty trial. There's a couple of

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Speaker 2: podcasts out there covering the Ditty trial from different angles.

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Speaker 2: And then you have like journalists who are covering the case,

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Speaker 2: following the case and reporting back on TikTok on the

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Speaker 2: personal accounts like Tore. Tore famously did one of those

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Speaker 2: explosive interviews with R. Kelly back in the day. He's

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Speaker 2: still reporting, but Tore is reporting and commenting on his

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Speaker 2: own personal TikTok account. Then you have TikTok in influencers

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Speaker 2: like Stephanie Sue and others who are like somehow in

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Speaker 2: the courtroom.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, they have like a press badge, like a

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Speaker 1: journalist's badge.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And so they're going back and reporting what they're

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Speaker 2: witnessing and observing, like Stephanie Sue on her podcast Rotten

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Speaker 2: Mango and then also on TikTok. And then there are

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Speaker 2: TikTok influencers who are giving like constant updates on the

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Speaker 2: trial on TikTok. But it's unclear where they're getting their

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Speaker 2: information from. If they're in the courtroom, if they know

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Speaker 2: someone in the courtroom, if they're reading transcripts every day,

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Speaker 2: and it's a a lot of testimony, it's like a

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Speaker 2: lot to comb through. It makes me wonder like people

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Speaker 2: who are not career journalists, who are not like outright

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Speaker 2: getting paid to do journalism work, Like is their coverage

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Speaker 2: getting them? Like are they gaining a lot of engagement?

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Speaker 2: And like TikTok dollars?

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Speaker 1: I would assume it's the coverage, right. I can imagine

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Speaker 1: that's an incentive for some of these folks on TikTok

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Speaker 1: to kind of go in and do that coverage for

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Speaker 1: their own channels or platforms.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that leads into like our kind of big picture

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Speaker 2: conversation for today, is these types of court cases as

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Speaker 2: journalism or as entertainment I should say m hm, so

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Speaker 2: that if we're not getting it through like the more

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Speaker 2: traditional news channels, those updates by like you know, TV

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Speaker 2: anchors on Channel four.

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Speaker 1: You know, there is a type of training that goes

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Speaker 1: into being a court reporter and like reporting on a case,

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Speaker 1: especially of this nature where maybe people are not trauma

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Speaker 1: informed and are also reporting what they're hearing or what

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Speaker 1: they're seeing via other social media platforms or news outlets

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Speaker 1: as well, and kind of regurgitating the information that they're seeing.

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Speaker 1: And I when I hear other people talk about it,

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Speaker 1: like just in general, right, not necessarily friends or family,

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Speaker 1: but just the chatter right of being online, is that

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Speaker 1: this case in some ways is very sensationalized because of

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Speaker 1: who it is.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and also like.

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Speaker 1: The term we were talking about this yesterday, like the

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Speaker 1: term freakof right, and how that's kind of become a

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Speaker 1: part of our lexicon when it's actually describing something horrific

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Speaker 1: and some type of exploitation, depending on who you were

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Speaker 1: in that room. And so I think that that is

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Speaker 1: also something really important, where the freak off is kind

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Speaker 1: of become in some way like selecious and in some

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Speaker 1: ways a joke depending on who's using it and how

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Speaker 1: they're saying it, but it's actually a representation of something horrific,

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Speaker 1: depending again, like who you were in that room. Don't

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Speaker 1: go anywhere, locomotives. We'll be right back.

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Speaker 2: And we're back with more of our episode. Notably, Sean

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Speaker 2: Combs is not being charged with like a domestic violence charge.

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Speaker 2: This is not a matter of Cassie going to the

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Speaker 2: local police department and filing a report because he abused

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Speaker 2: her in like a domestic violence context. This is the

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Speaker 2: federal government filing these sex trafficking charges against him, and

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Speaker 2: she's brought in as a key witness to the crime

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Speaker 2: of sex trafficking right as a victim of the crime,

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Speaker 2: she also was a witness to the crime, and that's

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Speaker 2: the role that she's playing on the stand. So every

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Speaker 2: time she's testifying about her experiences and the freak offs,

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Speaker 2: she's specifically testifying as to every time she was trafficked.

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Speaker 2: So every freak off is an instance of trafficking, of assault,

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Speaker 2: of abuse, of coercion, and everything else that was being

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Speaker 2: done to her. And it also raises the question, like

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Speaker 2: all the play by plays, all the specifics about the

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Speaker 2: baby oil and the male escorts that were being hired,

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Speaker 2: and the wigs that she had to wear, and like

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Speaker 2: the candle, like all these specifics about the way that

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Speaker 2: these trafficking situations were set up, why does the public

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Speaker 2: need to know? Oh? Right, do we need to know?

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Speaker 2: What difference does it make if we know the specifics

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Speaker 2: of how she was trafficked in a federal case like this,

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Speaker 2: you know, why does that information need to be communicated?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good point, because there are certain things

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Speaker 1: that are specifically left out for the public to not know,

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Speaker 1: and this is one of those things where it feels

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Speaker 1: like everything is kind of being shared. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: and with each testimonial it seems like it's getting worse

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Speaker 1: and worse what's being shared, and it's just available for

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Speaker 1: all of us, Which goes back to the original thesis, right,

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Speaker 1: that like this is part of entertainment for some people.

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Speaker 2: Yes, there's like some very it's like true crime entertainment value. Yes,

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Speaker 2: where it's horrifying. I can't look away. A woman is

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Speaker 2: being horrifically abused, can't look away. We're gonna like comb

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Speaker 2: over every detail of how it happened. This comes up

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Speaker 2: every time there's a public trial with a famous woman

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Speaker 2: at the center who has been abused or manipulated in

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Speaker 2: some way. You know, I don't know what the solution

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Speaker 2: is because there's this other piece of like there's the

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Speaker 2: freedom of the press, of course, and freedom of speech,

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Speaker 2: and so it's also not a matter of oh, influencers

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Speaker 2: should not be spreading updates. It's more like, why are

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Speaker 2: these specific updates so drive so much traffic?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: You know, and I feel like the folks reporting, No,

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Speaker 2: these are the details that people are going to tune

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Speaker 2: in for.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's part of that sensationalizing. We're gonna hold onto

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Speaker 1: these details that we think are going to get people

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Speaker 1: like riled up or going in some way.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and with every new witness it also is just

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Speaker 2: so it like reveals how many people were around and

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Speaker 2: were witnessing or were even involved, because he was not

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Speaker 2: pulling all this stuff off by himself, right, Like this

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Speaker 2: is a very elaborate scheme of his that involves a

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Speaker 2: lot of people in a lot of different locations for

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Speaker 2: many many years. So he had assistants and staff, and

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Speaker 2: there were like hotel staff everywhere they went, you know,

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Speaker 2: there was security guards, there were like other people he

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Speaker 2: partied with, other people he victimized. Just the sheer number

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Speaker 2: of people who can speak to what they witnessed and

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Speaker 2: how much of it is like really wild.

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Speaker 1: That's partly why this case is so big for the public. Right.

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Speaker 1: But in addition, like why the federal government is trying

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Speaker 1: Shawn Combs because of the magnitude and the scope of

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Speaker 1: people involved.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely and like it it goes back to also like

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Speaker 2: there have been over the years other times where we've

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Speaker 2: heard about Seawan Combs acting out violently towards people, Like

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Speaker 2: when his son was playing football at UCLA and Shawn

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Speaker 2: Combs throw a kettlebell at the UCLA football coach because

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Speaker 2: he was angry. He had some dispute with him over

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Speaker 2: his son and how his son was being played. So

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Speaker 2: he's somebody who I think everybody sort of knew for years.

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Speaker 2: But he has a temper that he has violent outbursts

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Speaker 2: that like his parties get out of control. Like it

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Speaker 2: seemed like there were a lot of people who were

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Speaker 2: in the know and in on his secrets that weren't

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Speaker 2: so secret.

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Speaker 1: Right I mean, And I think notably one of those

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Speaker 1: people was Aubry Oda from Danny Kane, and she has

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Speaker 1: been talking about Sean colmbs P ditty for twenty years.

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Speaker 1: Was like sounding the alarm when she was with Danny

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Speaker 1: Kane and was removed from the group that she was in,

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Speaker 1: and she was part of making of the band as well.

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Speaker 1: And so she in an interview with people said she

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Speaker 1: does not feel vindicated because of course this is horrible,

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Speaker 1: like what the victim's experience and how they were exploited.

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Speaker 1: But there is like, Okay, people are finally listening to

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Speaker 1: something I've been saying for twenty years.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like there's no winning here. No, there's there's

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Speaker 2: no way that anybody can feel like victorious, even the

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Speaker 2: people who are now coming forward and testifying a because

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Speaker 2: they've probably been subpoenad, like they have to write.

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Speaker 1: And that's a good thing to note too, is that

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Speaker 1: Cassie Ventura was subpoenad.

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Speaker 2: Yes, they're not like volunteering to go testify. You don't

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Speaker 2: testify in a federal case like this unless the Feds

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Speaker 2: knock on your door right until you went to show up,

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Speaker 2: you know.

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Speaker 1: And that was something that I saw online too, And

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Speaker 1: this is not the dominant narrative that I've seen, but

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Speaker 1: I have seen a couple of these people kind of

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Speaker 1: posing this question, like if you're wondering why Cassie is

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Speaker 1: speaking out now even though she received a settlement, kind

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Speaker 1: of like that, oh, that's not enough for you type

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Speaker 1: of sentiment, right, And the answer back to that is like, well,

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Speaker 1: she's being subpoenad because this is a federal case. This

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Speaker 1: is not a dB case. This is not Cassie versus

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Speaker 1: p Diddy. No, this is a federal case. She's a subpoenad.

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Speaker 2: It's the United States, right, it's all of us versus

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Speaker 2: shawan Combe.

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Speaker 1: When you put it that way, it's the people. It

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Speaker 1: is the people.

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Speaker 2: It's the people versus shawan Combe. These were crimes against

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Speaker 2: not just one person, but a slew a whole group

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Speaker 2: of people, And I don't think that we really know

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Speaker 2: all of the victims, no wrapped up in all of this.

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Speaker 2: We know some of the big names. We know Cassie.

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Speaker 2: There's a Mia now like a former personal assistant who

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Speaker 2: has been testifying under a different name Mia, who also

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Speaker 2: has testified to like horrible working conditions of violent outbursts

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Speaker 2: that she endured from Combs, assaults that she endured from Combs.

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Speaker 2: So I think that this is just the tip of

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Speaker 2: the iceberg in a lot of ways.

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Speaker 1: Don't go anywhere, lokamotives.

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Speaker 2: We'll be right back, and we're back with more of

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Speaker 2: our episode.

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Speaker 1: Prior to the trial, there was a journalist who also

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Speaker 1: went on record and talked about how when she was

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Speaker 1: working at Vibe and was profiling Sean Combs, like how

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Speaker 1: violent he was and how her computer was stolen because

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Speaker 1: he didn't want the profile she was writing to be

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Speaker 1: published and so like it goes back yeah, decades.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he has retaliated against a lot of people and

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Speaker 2: people have been afraid of him. Kid Cutty testified talked

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Speaker 2: about his relationship with Cassie and how Shawn Combs didn't

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Speaker 2: like it when he found out and Kid Cutty suspects

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Speaker 2: that Shawn Combs broke into his house, opened up a

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Speaker 2: bunch of Christmas presents, locked his dog in a room,

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Speaker 2: and then later tried to set his car on fire

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Speaker 2: with a Molotov cocktail. Like, people have been really targeted

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Speaker 2: by this person if they've done things that he doesn't like,

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Speaker 2: which explains a lot of why there was such a

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Speaker 2: bystander effect with his team, with his assistance in his

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Speaker 2: security guards and people who testified to like witnessing him

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Speaker 2: physically assault Cassie and other people, but they never said anything,

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Speaker 2: or at least didn't say anything to Puff Daddy, like

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Speaker 2: to Shawn Combs, right because they were afraid. They were

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Speaker 2: afraid that they would get home or the people that

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Speaker 2: they loved would get harmed. And this is how this

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Speaker 2: cycle of abuse and violence continues, right, Especially a person

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Speaker 2: in a position of power who pays everybody's salary, you know,

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Speaker 2: who like has control over their their careers and they're

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Speaker 2: under contract with him, and he maybe showers them with

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Speaker 2: gifts and with perks and with niceties and things that

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Speaker 2: make it so cool to work with him or to

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Speaker 2: date him, and then the violent outburst happens, and it

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Speaker 2: is that cycle, that cycle, and then there's threats and coercion. Well,

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Speaker 2: if you leave, you're never gonna you're never gonna work

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Speaker 2: in this town again. If you leave, I'm gonna release

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Speaker 2: all of these tapes that I took in our freak

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Speaker 2: offs or or at this party or whatever I made

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Speaker 2: you do. And then the night and then the gifts

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Speaker 2: come back, and you know, you're honeymooning again, and Okay,

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Speaker 2: maybe it's better now, and he feels sorry, but it

390
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Speaker 2: just continues on and on and on. So I'm sure

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Speaker 2: Cassie wasn't the only one caught in that cycle with him.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure even staff were caught in that cycle with him.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, And I think that you bring up the

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Speaker 1: good point of like the power and control and the

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Speaker 1: intimidation and the base under effect, because there were also

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Speaker 1: instances during Cassie's statement that she there were times where

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Speaker 1: she did consent to these quote freak offs, right, And

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Speaker 1: I think that that's an important thing to note that

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Speaker 1: consent can be withdrawn at any time. You know, just

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Speaker 1: because you agreed to something one day does not mean

401
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Speaker 1: you agree the next day or even that same night.

402
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Speaker 1: That same day, and so that is something I feel

403
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Speaker 1: like nobody's the perfect victim does not exist, right, and

404
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Speaker 1: so to I think maybe question the validity of her

405
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Speaker 1: experience based on maybe consenting one day and not consenting

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Speaker 1: another is not appropriate, right.

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Speaker 2: And it's also we have to complicate our understanding of

408
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Speaker 2: consent because if it's consent only because you think something

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Speaker 2: bad is going to happen, then that is a type

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Speaker 2: of coercive environment, absolutely right, And I think one of

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Speaker 2: the nuances And I'm glad that you brought up, you know,

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Speaker 2: the idea of consent in this situation, because the defense,

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Speaker 2: because there's so much evidence photo video and witness evidence,

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Speaker 2: video evidence of his violence towards her and his coercion

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Speaker 2: and his retaliation. So the defense for Shan Combs, all

416
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Speaker 2: they can really do is establish that she consented to

417
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Speaker 2: everything and she wanted to participate in everything. So what

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Speaker 2: they're doing is looking at some of the text messages

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Speaker 2: that have been entered into discovery and saying in these instances,

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Speaker 2: Cassie wrote, I'm always down for freak offs. I love

421
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Speaker 2: our freak COFs. I love our fos when we both

422
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Speaker 2: want them, and there have been I guess over the years,

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Speaker 2: moments where she wrote things like that. But then there's

424
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Speaker 2: also entered into discovery emails that she wrote right basically

425
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Speaker 2: pleading for him, like to love her. And she wrote

426
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Speaker 2: emails to her mother, you know, like basically asking for help.

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Speaker 2: And so it's not like you're saying it's not enough

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Speaker 2: to say yes one time, especially if there's all these

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Speaker 2: other things going on. Absolutely, you know, like did she

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Speaker 2: really have a choice to say yes or no in

431
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Speaker 2: her specific circumstance, I.

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Speaker 1: Mean, and even thinking about like your own personal life,

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Speaker 1: like there are instances where we have or I have

434
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Speaker 1: said yes when I haven't wanted to, but I know

435
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:16,600
Speaker 1: that this is important to my partners, so I'm gonna

436
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:20,600
Speaker 1: say yes, you know. And so these are like the

437
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:25,639
Speaker 1: the small moments that happen in relationships where you know,

438
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,879
Speaker 1: it's really challenged, like you said, really complicating what consent means.

439
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,080
Speaker 1: Those that power control dynamic may not be involved in

440
00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:35,439
Speaker 1: your relationship, but imagine if they are. And then the

441
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:37,879
Speaker 1: reasons that you're saying yes when you want to say no.

442
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, And per Cassie's testimony, the freak off started when

443
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,080
Speaker 2: she was very young. They started dating at nineteen by

444
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 2: twenty one, twenty two. He has her engaging in these

445
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,000
Speaker 2: freak Offs and the way that Cassie talks about them,

446
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:52,639
Speaker 2: which is why I think they are qualifying as a

447
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:55,480
Speaker 2: type of trafficking. She talks about them like they were

448
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:59,280
Speaker 2: a job, Like at some point she was full time

449
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,520
Speaker 2: with the freak Offs, like multiple times a week every week.

450
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 2: They're like benders. They're lasting two, three, four days, so

451
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 2: she's spending her week engaging in the freak Off and

452
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:13,240
Speaker 2: then recovering from the freak Off. She's testifying to having

453
00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 2: like non stop UTIs basically for almost ten years, that

454
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,000
Speaker 2: like even the medication stopped working for her because it

455
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:24,479
Speaker 2: was so chronic. And she's testifying to like basically having

456
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,960
Speaker 2: a roster of male escorts that they were calling so

457
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:31,960
Speaker 2: often she like knew them by name right, And she

458
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 2: describes the freak Offs being like almost like plays that

459
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,600
Speaker 2: Diddy was directing, and there's acts and there's scenes and

460
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,720
Speaker 2: their sessions, and she talks about it like a straight

461
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 2: up job, and that she was basically a sex worker

462
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:48,760
Speaker 2: for him after a while. And if you think about

463
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 2: when it started, how she was so young and then

464
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:54,359
Speaker 2: it kept going for all of her twenties. Basically, you know,

465
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:58,119
Speaker 2: there's no way that like that was her dream for

466
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 2: herself and that's what she wanted for herself absolutely, you know.

467
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 2: But she's under this ten album contract with Ditty and

468
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 2: she wants to make her music. And the place that

469
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,439
Speaker 2: she lives is also like he's paying for it. You know,

470
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,439
Speaker 2: her family is across the country. It seemed like she

471
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:18,399
Speaker 2: was genuinely afraid to say no.

472
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean that really hits all the points of

473
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:27,880
Speaker 1: the power and control, right, the intimidation, the isolation, the

474
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 1: economic abuse, all of it.

475
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,879
Speaker 2: I think something to note too is there's different types

476
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 2: of like human traffickers and pimps. Like I think people

477
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 2: think of trafficking and they maybe think, I don't know,

478
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 2: like narcos or like women who are like working on

479
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,680
Speaker 2: the street, right, But there's a lot of different ways

480
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:48,880
Speaker 2: that women become trafficked. And so a few years ago

481
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 2: I participated in this like human trafficking training by this

482
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 2: anti trafficking organization called the Polaris Project, and they did

483
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:02,159
Speaker 2: a big study about second trafficking between Mexico and the

484
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,440
Speaker 2: United States. And something that I learned in that sex

485
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 2: trafficking training is that one of the types of traffickers

486
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:12,399
Speaker 2: is called like a boyfriend trafficker, and the way that

487
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 2: you get involved with the boyfriend trafficker is through like

488
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,399
Speaker 2: dating and love and romance, and they romance you and

489
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:23,439
Speaker 2: it's the honeymoon phase and their person and they are

490
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 2: your boyfriend and you are dating and it is romantic.

491
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 2: Eventually that boyfriend says, well, if you love me, then

492
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,399
Speaker 2: you'll do this for me. You know, you'll take this

493
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,160
Speaker 2: package for me and you'll like transport it through the airport,

494
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 2: or you're going to do this little task for me,

495
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 2: or you're going to sleep with this person for money,

496
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 2: and it escalates until before you know it, you're in

497
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 2: a full on trafficking situation. And it sounds like this

498
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 2: is what happened with Cassie because she talks about being

499
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 2: in love with him and loving him and them being

500
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 2: like an item. So it sounds like he like boyfriended her,

501
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 2: exploited her into sexual exploitation.

502
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a lot.

503
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 2: It is a lot. It's fucked up, and our hearts

504
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,200
Speaker 2: go out to Cassie, who is very pregnant also by

505
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,360
Speaker 2: the way, while she's testifying.

506
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 1: With her third child with her third child.

507
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 2: By her husband, Alex Fine, formerly personal trainer to both

508
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 2: her and Shawn Combs.

509
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 1: Oh, I don't think I knew that Shawn.

510
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:28,359
Speaker 2: Combs hired Alex Fine to train them and is shortly thereafter,

511
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:33,159
Speaker 2: you know, Cassie and Alex Fine start to develop feelings

512
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,720
Speaker 2: for one another. She ends her thing with Diddy somehow,

513
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 2: she like is able to get out of it. Yeah,

514
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 2: not unscathed. Right, there were assaults and abuse and all

515
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 2: kinds of stalking going on. But now she's married and

516
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 2: she has her third baby on the way with her husband.

517
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 2: This has also been interesting because as she's been testifying,

518
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 2: her husband has been in the courtroom. Yes, so of course,

519
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 2: what's the commentary about her.

520
00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 1: Husband she has to listen to, Well, what she quote did,

521
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 1: what she did, not what she was put through, not

522
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 1: how she was exploited, but her poor husband.

523
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 2: Her poor husband, and what do we think about that?

524
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 2: Because it's like it's like this is so classic.

525
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,720
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, right, I mean one patriarchy, one oh one

526
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 1: rape culture, Like you know, it's it's horrible, and but

527
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 1: it's also not surprising, right to hear that type of

528
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 1: commentary like, oh, her, it's still centering the man of

529
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 1: the poor husband, not poor Cassie, and she has to relive,

530
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 1: be re traumatized and recount these details of a decade.

531
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 1: But her poor husband, let's deflect, Yeah, and he has

532
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 1: to hear this.

533
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 2: Yeah. And so depending on who you are, then it's

534
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 2: because there are still Ditty supporters for sure. Not everybody

535
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 2: is like is not not everybody is denouncing him and

536
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 2: his actions, I mean, and.

537
00:29:55,080 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 1: That is is I think the history of any male

538
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 1: celeb or someone of his caliber, right, even R Kelly

539
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 1: like still has supporters. Oh yeah, right, Bill Cosby still

540
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 1: has supporters. Notably, these are three black men, right, and

541
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 1: so the racial dynamic is obviously very important when talking

542
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 1: about this Johnny Depp, Johnny Depp has a lot of supporters,

543
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 1: Kit Scott supporters, and poor amberhard was villainized so much.

544
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 1: We also have an episode on that because that case,

545
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 1: I feel to me that was one of the first

546
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 1: examples of like a TikTok case. Yes, was Amber heard

547
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:35,160
Speaker 1: versus Johnny Depp? Yeah, which it wasn't even versus them.

548
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 1: It was a libel case, right, but it was positioned

549
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 1: on social media as like Amber versus Johnny.

550
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 2: It was positioned that way. And in both of these

551
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 2: cases it's so easy for the for a viewer who

552
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 2: hasn't like looked into it because of the rape culture,

553
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 2: because of the misogyny. Immediately, it's oh, Amber and Cassie

554
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 2: like trying to destroy these men and bring them down,

555
00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 2: and why are they speaking up now? Johnny Depp filed

556
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 2: a lawsuit against Amber heard Relibel because of an essay

557
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 2: that she wrote that did not name him no, and

558
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 2: then with this one it's the federal government bringing them

559
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 2: to court. But in both instances, it's like this woman

560
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 2: at the center, who has been horribly brutalized, is like

561
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 2: at fault for something always, always.

562
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 1: Always, I mean, And it goes to show that like

563
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 1: there hasn't been a reckoning, a me too reckoning for

564
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 1: all communities or subsets of the culture. Right. We saw

565
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 1: it with the film industry in some capacity. We haven't

566
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 1: necessarily seen it with hip hop and arts hip hop

567
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 1: and music.

568
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 2: In the music industry, right, And so.

569
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 1: It's that that I don't know if it's a ripple effect,

570
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 1: but it's like, not everyone has had their like their

571
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 1: me too reckoning, Not each industry has had it yet.

572
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 1: And in some ways this is a type of reckoning

573
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 1: because of how big Shawn Combs is and how influential

574
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 1: he's been in the culture for decades. But this is

575
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 1: like just the tip of the iceberg, and it's gonna

576
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 1: take like other people in the industry to actually like

577
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 1: not just be the bystanders and be like active in

578
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 1: calling this out exactly before it gets to this point

579
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 1: exactly exactly.

580
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 2: And you know this hunger to like make it by

581
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 2: any means necessary, to like get on and to be successful.

582
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 2: I also think that that insane hunger to like get

583
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 2: ahead in the industry drives so much of this this

584
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 2: issue because whether we're talking about the staff right that

585
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 2: maybe is like experiencing some like bystander effect and not

586
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 2: acting because of all the reasons we've talked about, Like

587
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 2: they're nervous, they have their own careers, they fear retaliation,

588
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 2: they want to be successful in what they're doing, that

589
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 2: maybe this has been a big break for them, right.

590
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 2: And then there's the talent at the center of it,

591
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 2: and like young talent, impressionable talent you know, from all

592
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 2: over the place, from different places coming out here in

593
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 2: these instances to la like chasing a dream and then yeah,

594
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 2: you think you got your big break, this huge mogul

595
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 2: has taken a liking to you, but now you're like

596
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 2: in their clutches and p did he also having been

597
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 2: linked to some dubious like behavior with Usher, a young

598
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 2: Usher right when Usher was like sent to like Puffy's

599
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 2: flavor camp, to like live with puff Daddy when Usher

600
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 2: was a child. And also Justin Bieber also being linked

601
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 2: to like nefarious shit with puff Daddy when he was

602
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 2: a child.

603
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, it really does put going back to these like

604
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 1: crashouts in our previous episode. It really does put maybe

605
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 1: a Justin Bieber into a different context in light you know,

606
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 1: he was a child star and what type of exploitation

607
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 1: did he experience in the industry.

608
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's one thing for adults even to be

609
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 2: in these like wild ditty parties, but I feel like

610
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,920
Speaker 2: these kids were there too, you know. And so this

611
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:17,360
Speaker 2: is like this person has caused like multi generational harm

612
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:20,280
Speaker 2: when we think about the age range of these different

613
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 2: people who have been in his who have been in

614
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 2: his reach. So it really is a wild time decades

615
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:29,400
Speaker 2: in the making. Yeah, decades in the making. And it

616
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,279
Speaker 2: kind of seems like unfortunately in cases like this, one

617
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 2: victim is like never enough. Yeah, it's almost like there

618
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:36,920
Speaker 2: has to be.

619
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 1: There's definitely pile up absolutely.

620
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 2: Before action is taken. Thank you all for listening. This

621
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 2: has been a particularly heavy episode. This case United States

622
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 2: versus Combs is still all over the news and social media,

623
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,360
Speaker 2: and I anticipate that it will be for some time,

624
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:57,880
Speaker 2: even after the trial ends. So please give yourself a

625
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 2: break from scrolling, from taking in this information, and if

626
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:06,800
Speaker 2: you need resources, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline

627
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,800
Speaker 2: one eight hundred seven nine nine Safe one eight hundred

628
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:15,879
Speaker 2: seven nine nine Safe and the National Human Trafficking Hotline

629
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:19,879
Speaker 2: which is at one eight eight eight three seven three

630
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 2: seven eight eight eight.

631
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:24,839
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to another episode of lok at

632
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 1: Dora Radio. I want to reiterate what Mala said. Please

633
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 1: take care of yourselves, take a scrolling break, check in

634
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 1: with your friends, check in with yourself, with your body, hydrate,

635
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 1: and we will catch you next time.

636
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 2: Thanks you, Thos.

637
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 1: Lokata Radio is executive produced by Yosa Fem and Mala Munjos.

638
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 2: Stephanie Franco is our producer.

639
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 1: Story editing by Medosa.

640
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 2: Creative direction by me Mala.

641
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,360
Speaker 1: Look at Dora Radio is a part of iHeartRadio's Michael

642
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:53,720
Speaker 1: Dura podcast Network.

643
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:56,759
Speaker 2: You can listen to Lokata Radio on the iHeartRadio app

644
00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts.

645
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 1: Leave us a review and show with your prima or

646
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:01,920
Speaker 1: share with your homegirl.

647
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 2: And thank you to our local moorees, to our listeners

648
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 2: for tuning in each and every week.

649
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 1: Besitos