1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:04,200 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references 2 00:00:04,200 --> 00:00:07,360 Speaker 1: to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised. 3 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 2: The thing that's hard to understand we try to think 4 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:18,960 Speaker 2: about the rationale for poisoners and try to think about 5 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 2: what would motivate them. I think a lot of the 6 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:25,120 Speaker 2: time we're just unable to do that because there isn't 7 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 2: a rationale. We're trying to think about a rational explanation 8 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:31,480 Speaker 2: for something that just isn't working. 9 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:38,519 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 10 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:41,519 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 11 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold More Wicked, as well as the 12 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: co host of the new show Buried Bones, both on 13 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:51,559 Speaker 1: Exactly Right. I've traveled around the world interviewing people for 14 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: the show. I've interviewed some people in person and some 15 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: from my home studio over zoom, and they are all 16 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 1: excellent writers. They've had so many rate true crime stories, 17 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 1: and now we want to tell you those stories with 18 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 1: details that have never been published. Tenfold More Wicked presents 19 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 1: Wicked Words is about the choices that writers make, good 20 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 1: and bad. It's a deep dive into the stories behind 21 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: the stories doctor Neil Bradberry is a professor of physiology 22 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: and biophysics at the Chicago Medical School, and he's written 23 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 1: this incredible book called A Taste for Poison. This is 24 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 1: my second chat with a poison expert. I'm so interested 25 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: in the idea of a killer weaponizing poison that I 26 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:40,040 Speaker 1: wanted to hear about even more cases. Where do I 27 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:42,400 Speaker 1: place you in the world of crime, if anywhere? 28 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:46,320 Speaker 2: Probably not terribly well. In the world of crime. I'm 29 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 2: actually spending most of my time doing research on cystic fibrosis. 30 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 2: Oh well, and so I have been doing that for many, 31 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 2: many years. I grew up watching murder mysteries on television 32 00:01:59,880 --> 00:02:03,639 Speaker 2: and of course reading Agatha Christie novels, and have always 33 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 2: been interested in science. And one of the things that 34 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:11,080 Speaker 2: I felt was very much lacking in most of the 35 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:14,519 Speaker 2: stories I was reading was that people were killed with poisons. 36 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 2: There were people dying poisons sprinkled into food, but there 37 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:22,919 Speaker 2: was never really any indication as to exactly how those 38 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 2: people were dying from the poison. Poison was given and 39 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 2: the person just died, and to me, that was quite unsatisfactory. 40 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:36,360 Speaker 2: I attended university as a biochemistry student, and it was 41 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 2: actually during one particular class where the professor was mentioning 42 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:45,920 Speaker 2: a particular chemical called bonkrekic acid. Now that's not something 43 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:48,520 Speaker 2: that most people are ever going to come across, but 44 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:52,359 Speaker 2: I was thinking, as the professor was talking about it, 45 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 2: whether or not this could actually be useful in killing someone, 46 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 2: because it would be so unique and so rare that 47 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 2: no one would ever figure out how I had killed someone. 48 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 1: Do you think, looking back on this, this was an 49 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 1: unusual thought. 50 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 2: It was just something that came to me I because 51 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 2: of my interest in murder mysteries, that this may be 52 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:18,640 Speaker 2: something that could be useful and respark my interest in 53 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 2: really understanding how poisons work on the human body, because 54 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 2: they all act in slightly different ways, they kill in 55 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:30,640 Speaker 2: completely different manners based upon the particular poison. It's also 56 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 2: interesting that many of the things we consider to be poisons, 57 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 2: when used appropriately, can actually be used to save lives 58 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 2: as well. So that's one of the other interesting things 59 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:47,240 Speaker 2: that I wanted to get across is that the chemicals 60 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 2: by themselves really are not either good or bad. It's 61 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 2: really how they're used. 62 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 1: Tell me what poison. Agatha Christie would have appreciated the 63 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 1: most in her time or currently is there some devious, 64 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 1: sneaky poison that is just brilliant. 65 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 2: The amazing thing is that Agatha Christie obviously was a 66 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 2: trained pharmacist, so she knew about poisons and their effects. 67 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 2: And the one thing that I really was impressed with 68 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:19,359 Speaker 2: was her use of strychnine and her description of the 69 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:24,559 Speaker 2: person who is suffering from strychnine poisoning. So, strychnine has 70 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 2: this ability to cause all the muscles of the body 71 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 2: to contract simultaneously, so very agonizing death. And one of 72 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 2: the telltale signs of someone being poisoned by strychnine is 73 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:42,719 Speaker 2: that their body ends up acting like a bow shape 74 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 2: because usually our back muscles are much stronger than our 75 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:50,719 Speaker 2: abdominal muscles, and so when they contract, our bodies go 76 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 2: into a bowl like shape, so that the body, as 77 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:58,839 Speaker 2: Agatha Christie mentioned, is just resting on the back of 78 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 2: the head and the heat. The other really nasty thing 79 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:08,840 Speaker 2: about strychnine is that as well as enhancing the contractions 80 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 2: of our muscles, it also enhances our sensations, so that 81 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 2: our sense that we are dying is amplified. 82 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 1: Heightened, so you really feel it. 83 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 2: You really feel it, and you know you're dying. It's 84 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 2: a very nasty poison. 85 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: Some of them are so sneaky that you would have 86 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 1: to know to look for them. And I think that's 87 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 1: one of the keys. That's where we see people exhuming 88 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:35,479 Speaker 1: bodies because the coroner didn't order a toxicology report, I 89 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 1: suppose because it just seemed like maybe a part attack 90 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 1: or stroke, something that was natural. Is that right? 91 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 2: That's right? And there are some poisons that are fairly rare. 92 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 2: I can think of one case of poison that was 93 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 2: actually hidden in a chicken curry, and the story revolved 94 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:58,239 Speaker 2: around a woman who was having an affair with another 95 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 2: man who went by the unfre fortunate name of Lucky Chiema, 96 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 2: and so you can imagine that having a name like 97 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:08,280 Speaker 2: Lucky was not going to bode well for him. He 98 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 2: decided that he wanted to end the affair because he 99 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:16,160 Speaker 2: was getting married to another woman, and missus Singh decided 100 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 2: that if she wasn't going to have Lucky, then no 101 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 2: one would, and so she placed the poison aconite in 102 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:26,280 Speaker 2: chicken curry that she then placed in his fridge. Lucky 103 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 2: and his fiancee then went on to eat the chicken 104 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:33,159 Speaker 2: currier and developed severe aconite poisoning. This is a very 105 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:37,840 Speaker 2: deadly poison and had to go to hospital. He died. 106 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 2: She didn't eat quite so much of the currier and 107 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 2: did manage to survive. It went to the forensic scientist 108 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 2: in the lab to try and determine what the poison was. 109 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 2: There was a strong suspicion that it was in fact aconite, 110 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 2: but no one in the lab had ever seen aconite before. 111 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 2: And the way in which they really convinced themselves that 112 00:06:59,839 --> 00:07:02,479 Speaker 2: it was aconite that had come from a plant was 113 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 2: by sending off to the Botanical Gardens Q Gardens in 114 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:09,279 Speaker 2: London for a sample of the plant that they could 115 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 2: then compare with the stomach contents from Lucky and his fiance, 116 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 2: and finally they were able to convict Missus Singh of 117 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 2: killing with aconite. 118 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 1: I have always been confused by Thomas Neil cream he 119 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 1: would poison people from abroad. I know he was removing 120 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 1: a couple of obstacles, like a wife in his life, 121 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 1: but then why boys and sex workers who were posing 122 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 1: no obstacles. It's just confusing to me. Poisoners confuse me. 123 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 2: It is very confusing, and I think again it comes 124 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 2: back to the fact that we're trying to rationalize an 125 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 2: activity that really isn't rational, and so we're never going 126 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 2: to really understand what motivates an individual other than trying 127 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 2: to get an inheritance or get rid of someone that's annoying, 128 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 2: which we can understand. But people like Thomas Creme just 129 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 2: don't seem to have anything that we would think of 130 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 2: as rational in their behavior. 131 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: That's true. Let's talk about one of your fantastic cases. 132 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: What is your favorite case in your book that you 133 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 1: think you can go into some pretty good detail with 134 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 1: good characters. 135 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 2: I think the first case of Ken Barlow with insulin 136 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 2: is interesting because it covers something that we all think 137 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 2: of a lot as a life saving drug. It's something 138 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 2: that has indeed saved the lives of thousands, if not 139 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:33,680 Speaker 2: millions of people across the planet and is used every day. 140 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 2: But again it's an example of one of those drugs 141 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:42,079 Speaker 2: that when used inappropriately, can be very deadly. And in fact, 142 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 2: it was only thirty years between the discovery of insulin 143 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 2: and it's used to treat patients with diabetes before Ken 144 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 2: Barlow decided he was going to use it to kill 145 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 2: his wife. Ken was a nurse. He'd worked as a 146 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 2: nurse and his wife was also a nurse, and that's 147 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 2: probably where they met. A one of the hospitals around 148 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 2: Leeds in England, he had decided that he was going 149 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:11,560 Speaker 2: to kill his wife again the reasons that are not 150 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 2: quite clear. He always maintained that he was innocent. There 151 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:19,080 Speaker 2: was no reason why he would kill her. When she died, 152 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:23,440 Speaker 2: she was a few months pregnant. He had become unemployed 153 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 2: and it was suspected that he wanted to get rid 154 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 2: of not only his wife but the child as well, 155 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:33,679 Speaker 2: in order to save any financial burdens that would be 156 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 2: inappropriately placed upon him. He had bragged two colleagues in 157 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:41,320 Speaker 2: other hospitals that he thought insulin would be a great 158 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:44,719 Speaker 2: way to kill people because it would be undetectable. And 159 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 2: this comes to a lot of the issues with poisons 160 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 2: is the thought that it's an undetectable weapon of murder, 161 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:53,679 Speaker 2: and in fact that's not really the case. But at 162 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:57,560 Speaker 2: the time, insulin was not really one of the poisons 163 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 2: that could be identified. In fact, nobody had thought that 164 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 2: insulin would be used as a poison. 165 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: Tell me what year this is again, just to remind me. 166 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 2: So this is in the nineteen fifties. Okay, Insulin was 167 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 2: discovered in nineteen twenty one was marketed just a few 168 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:16,079 Speaker 2: years later, so this was just a few decades after 169 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 2: insulin was discovered. He argued that he had indeed injected 170 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 2: his wife with a drug, but it was an abortion drug, 171 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 2: which may seem reasonable, but in fact, abortion at the 172 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 2: time was also illegal, and so he was admitting to 173 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 2: an illegal act anyway. 174 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:35,559 Speaker 1: But not murder, but not murder. 175 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 2: He didn't know at the time that the police had 176 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 2: already looked for that chemical within her body and had 177 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 2: been unable to find it. They suspected that he had 178 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 2: given his wife insulin injections, an insulin overdose, and insulin 179 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 2: really has the job in our bodies of regulating blood 180 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 2: sugar levels. When we have a meal, blood sugar goes up, 181 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 2: insulin goes up to bring it back down to a 182 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 2: proper level. And anytime we have huge swings in blood 183 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:11,200 Speaker 2: sugar levels, we have problems. And anybody who has diabetes 184 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:13,680 Speaker 2: knows that you have to maintain your blood sugar within 185 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 2: very narrow limits. One of the important things about blood 186 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 2: sugar or glucose is that it's the only fuel that 187 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 2: the brain can use and if blood sugar levels drop 188 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 2: too dramatically, then the brain stops functioning. And when the 189 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 2: brain stops functioning, obviously the individual dies. And the doctor 190 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:37,200 Speaker 2: who came to the house and found Missus Barlow slumped 191 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 2: in the bathtub was really convinced that she had not 192 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 2: died purely from drowning, as was initially suspected, but she 193 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 2: had been poisoned. Two small pin pricks were found on 194 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:53,199 Speaker 2: her body, and parts of tissue were excised from her 195 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:57,959 Speaker 2: body to go for forensic analysis. Unfortunately, at the time, 196 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 2: there was no method or detecting insulin. No one had 197 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:05,840 Speaker 2: ever suspected that insulin would be used for murder, and 198 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:07,960 Speaker 2: so no one had ever thought to come up with 199 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:11,560 Speaker 2: a test for it. The police decided that they would 200 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:15,960 Speaker 2: contact the drug manufacturers, who obviously needed some way of 201 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 2: making sure that they were putting the right amount of 202 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 2: insulin into the bottles that they were dispensing to patients, 203 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:26,080 Speaker 2: and they had a test which is known as the 204 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 2: mouse convulsion essay. And fortunately this was the only way 205 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 2: of really identifying poisons is by testing them on animals. Nowadays, obviously, 206 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 2: and thankfully that doesn't happen, we have sophisticated machines that 207 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 2: will enable us to detect chemicals without using animals. But 208 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 2: at the time this was the only method to use, 209 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 2: and no one had ever thought not only to test 210 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 2: for insulin, but testing for insulin not in its pure 211 00:12:56,559 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 2: form that the drug companies were putting into bottles, But 212 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 2: insulin was in a dead body, so the problems of 213 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 2: extracting the insulin from the body then testing it proved 214 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 2: to be eventually fatal towards Ken Barlow. Large amounts of 215 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 2: insulin were found. Lethal levels of insulin were found. He 216 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 2: was convicted of murder. Fortunately for him, his conviction for 217 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:25,559 Speaker 2: murder was just a few years after hanging was abolished 218 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:30,239 Speaker 2: in Britain, so he didn't tang. He maintained his innocence 219 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 2: up to his release just a few years ago, never confessed. 220 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 2: He was given ample opportunity to confess to the crime, 221 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 2: which would have shortened his sentence. He always maintained his 222 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:45,040 Speaker 2: innocence and lived out his full sentence for murder. 223 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 1: Wow. So I find that interesting because we talk about 224 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 1: people who were wrongfully convicted, and there's actually a really 225 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 1: great article that talks about how there's split in half. 226 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 1: There are the people who have been wrongfully convicted, but 227 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 1: they don't want to be in prison no matter what, 228 00:13:58,080 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: so they just admit to it to the parole b 229 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 1: war and then they can be released. And then, of 230 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: course there are the people who say they've been wrongly 231 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 1: convicted and they will never admit to it. It could 232 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:08,720 Speaker 1: have been parole. What is the mindset behind that. 233 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:13,080 Speaker 2: It was clear reading through the trial transcripts that the 234 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:18,440 Speaker 2: evidence convicting him was overwhelming. I don't think any doubt 235 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 2: was there that he had murdered his wife and that 236 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 2: he had killed a by injecting with a lethal dose 237 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 2: of insulin. So why he decided that he would maintain 238 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 2: his innocence when he could have come out early on parole. 239 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 2: It is not clear. There was a son involved who 240 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 2: never spoke to him again. The son was convinced that 241 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 2: his father had killed his mother and they were estranged 242 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 2: for the rest of his life, so he was convinced 243 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 2: as well. 244 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 1: So I'm assuming that there quickly afterward or somewhat quickly afterward, 245 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 1: became a test for insulin in someone's body. 246 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 2: There became a test for insulin, and it became a 247 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 2: chemical test that did not involve animals. 248 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 1: Thank goodness, and so it. 249 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 2: Is really a remarkable account of how various chemical tests 250 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 2: have been developed over the years. And one of the 251 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 2: things that I found interesting is that a lot of 252 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 2: the instances of poisoning are really a game between poisoners 253 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 2: and forensic scientists. As poisonous come up with new poisons 254 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 2: that are seemingly undetectable at the time, forensic science has 255 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 2: to come up with new ways of detecting those poisons. 256 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 2: And if you look at the history of poisoning, you 257 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 2: can see that, certainly in the seventeen hundreds and even 258 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 2: up into the early eighteen hundreds, really the poison of 259 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 2: choice were things like arsenic and cyanide, because those were 260 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 2: difficult to detect. One scientist marsh came up with a 261 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 2: test that was definitive for proving arsenic in a murder victim, 262 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 2: and he had a lot of convictions for arsenic poisoning. 263 00:15:56,640 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 2: Because of that, arsenic poisoning went out of favor as 264 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 2: a murder weapon, and other poisons, particularly plant poisons, became 265 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 2: much more prevalent, certainly in Victorian times, because the technology 266 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 2: to detect those plant based poisons was not there yet. 267 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 2: As technology improved, those detection methods also got better, and 268 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 2: the plant poisons could be detected now, and so theoretically 269 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 2: any poison could be detected, but unfortunately it's also a 270 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 2: matter of Oftentimes you have to know exactly what you're 271 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 2: looking for in eder to refine it right. 272 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 1: But if you're also a poisoner, you have to get 273 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 1: the doses right, because if you don't give them enough, 274 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 1: it just makes them a little sick, maybe they get suspicious. 275 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 1: If you're give them too much, maybe it'll be more 276 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 1: easily detectable. Am I overthinking this? 277 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:47,120 Speaker 2: Well? That can actually be one of the benefits of 278 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 2: certain poisons. For example, arsenic is a poison that's what 279 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 2: is called an accumulative poison, So you can give little 280 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 2: bits of poison to a person over many weeks, over 281 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 2: many months, and it will gradually accumulate in their bodies. 282 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 2: One of the symptoms of arsenic poisoning is that it 283 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:10,439 Speaker 2: looks very much like an upset stomach, So you have 284 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 2: stomach ache, you may have a little bit of diarrhea, 285 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 2: but nothing that would make you necessarily suspicious. But over time, 286 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:21,359 Speaker 2: given more and more arsenic, it can eventually build up 287 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:24,640 Speaker 2: to lethal levels. And of course there's nothing that necessarily 288 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 2: suggests the person's been poisoned. They've just been unwell for 289 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 2: a couple of months, and nothing may seem untowards until 290 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 2: they eventually die. But they've died because of accumulation of 291 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:38,400 Speaker 2: arsenic in their bodies, which would be quite different from 292 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 2: something like cyanide, which would kill you literally within a 293 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 2: few minutes of exposure. So, depending upon how distant you 294 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 2: wanted to be from your victim, you would give them 295 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:53,880 Speaker 2: something like cyanide, which would kill very quickly, versus arsenic 296 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 2: which would kill over many months. Potentially. 297 00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:59,680 Speaker 1: What's another sexy, sexy poison. 298 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:04,160 Speaker 2: That's a good case, So we'll talk about cyanide. Cyanide 299 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 2: is obviously a favorite of Agatha Christie and is something 300 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:13,119 Speaker 2: that I think most people have heard about. Interestingly, most 301 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 2: of us eat cyanide every day. Cyanide is found in 302 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:23,359 Speaker 2: apple pips, for example, and anytime we swallow apple pips, 303 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:25,920 Speaker 2: we are ingesting a small amount of cyanide. 304 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 1: Those are the seeds, Is that right? 305 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:28,360 Speaker 2: Those are the seeds? 306 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 1: Is that British? The apple pips? 307 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 2: It is? And I think that's important because there is 308 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:39,119 Speaker 2: a story that is associated with a defense lawyer who 309 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:43,719 Speaker 2: used that defense that the murder victim had in fact 310 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:48,159 Speaker 2: died not from poisoning and being poisoned with cyanide that 311 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 2: had been put into a beer bottle, but had in 312 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 2: fact inadvertently died from eating apples and swallowing the seeds 313 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 2: of apples. 314 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 1: How many pips would have taken to kill someone. 315 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 2: That was brought up by the prosecution, and it was 316 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:08,920 Speaker 2: determined that you did need several thousands of apple seeds 317 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:14,120 Speaker 2: or apple pips to succumb to cyanide poisoning. The defense 318 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 2: attorney at the time was Sir Fitzroy Kelly, who after 319 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 2: this case became known as apple Pips Kelly for his 320 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 2: failed defense of his client for cyanide poisoning. 321 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 1: Now embarrassing, What a terrible way to earn a nickname. 322 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:50,959 Speaker 1: So there are poisons we use to disable people, and 323 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 1: then there are poisons we use to kill people. 324 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:58,280 Speaker 2: Yes, I think most people when they're using poisons really 325 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:02,159 Speaker 2: want to have the poor isn't being the cause of death, 326 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 2: trying to get it either done quickly or slowly enough 327 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 2: that they can be a long way away and have 328 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:13,639 Speaker 2: a decent alibi for when the individual dies. And I 329 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 2: think that's one of the interesting things that I bring 330 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:22,400 Speaker 2: out in the book is that oftentimes the poisoning victims 331 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 2: can die when the killers are not only many miles away, 332 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 2: but on different continents in different countries, if the poisoner 333 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:35,400 Speaker 2: has taken long enough, and that can make it difficult 334 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:40,239 Speaker 2: for police to arrest the individuals responsible. One of the 335 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 2: stories that I think illustrates that really nicely is the 336 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 2: case of an individual who went into hospital complaining of 337 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:55,159 Speaker 2: being very unwell, signed in under the name of Edwin Carter. 338 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 2: Into a London hospital, Edwin Carter was seen by several 339 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:05,159 Speaker 2: doctors who realized that he was very severely ill, but 340 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:09,639 Speaker 2: could not figure out what was causing his problems until 341 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 2: a few hours later. The patient called over a doctor 342 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 2: and said, my name really isn't Edwin Carter. I'm actually 343 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:24,440 Speaker 2: a Soviet agent who's defected to the United Kingdom and 344 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 2: I have been assassinated. He wasn't exactly sure what he 345 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 2: was assassinated with, and despite many many tests, no one 346 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 2: could figure out what was killing him until one of 347 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 2: the doctors who was walking about noticed that he looked 348 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,400 Speaker 2: very much like some of the cancer patients that he 349 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:48,160 Speaker 2: was treating. His hair was falling out, he was looking 350 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:52,680 Speaker 2: very emaciated, and it was eventually decided that he must 351 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:56,560 Speaker 2: be suffering from some kind of radiation poisoning. But what 352 00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:59,639 Speaker 2: kind of radiation. No one had a clue as to 353 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 2: what it might be. All the regular test radiation detectors 354 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 2: that are present in hospitals couldn't detect any radiation, even 355 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 2: though the symptoms were very classic of radiation poisoning. His 356 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:16,160 Speaker 2: blood and urine was sent off to a government facility 357 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:19,679 Speaker 2: and it was determined that he had been exposed to 358 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:26,160 Speaker 2: a drug called polonium, radioactive polonium that is really only 359 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:31,200 Speaker 2: produced in one facility in Siberia. Edwin Carter had claimed 360 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:34,960 Speaker 2: that he was indeed a defecting Soviet agent. His real 361 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 2: name was saschel at Venenko. He had defected to England. 362 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:42,920 Speaker 2: He claimed that Putin had ordered his assassination with polonium. 363 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 2: The polonium was given to him in a cup of tea. 364 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 2: What could be more British than putting poison a cup 365 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 2: of tea. The assassins left the same day that Venenko 366 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:58,399 Speaker 2: had been poisoned. They flew back to Russia. They have 367 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 2: been interview by police, but extradition has been refused. It's 368 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:07,160 Speaker 2: been determined that we know exactly who the killers are, 369 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,879 Speaker 2: but it's unlikely that they'll ever be brought to justice 370 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 2: because they have fled the country. Because it took only 371 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,440 Speaker 2: about a week for lit Venenko to die, but obviously 372 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 2: long enough for the assassins to fly out of London 373 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:20,200 Speaker 2: back to Russia. 374 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 1: It's incredible to me it's still used very effectively. And 375 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,399 Speaker 1: you were starting to tell me about a cyanide case. 376 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,399 Speaker 1: What's the cyanide case? So cyanide as a reminder, is 377 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:34,159 Speaker 1: a very painful, quick shooting someone type of poison. Is 378 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: that right? 379 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 2: Cyanide is very quick, very effective. It is always said 380 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:45,120 Speaker 2: that cyanide has a faint smell of almonds about it, 381 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:50,199 Speaker 2: and that is probably true because almonds also contain a 382 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 2: small amount of cyanide. So I suppose you could say 383 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 2: that almonds have a slight cyanide smell. 384 00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,639 Speaker 1: But don't they say only certain people can smell cyanide? 385 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:00,640 Speaker 1: Is that an old wives tale? Level always heard that. 386 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:06,359 Speaker 2: No, that's actually true, And a series of experiments were 387 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 2: performed in the fifties where people were given samples of 388 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 2: cyanide to smell and determined that only a small percentage 389 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 2: of people can smell cyanide. It's not clear whether any 390 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 2: of the individuals were aware that they were given cyanide 391 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 2: to smell, and is certainly not something that would be 392 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 2: permissible today, but that data is out there, and it's 393 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 2: true that only a certain fraction of the population can 394 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:40,399 Speaker 2: indeed detect cyanide by smell. Cyanide works by killing a 395 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:44,119 Speaker 2: small part of the cell called a mitochondria. This is 396 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:46,960 Speaker 2: where all the energy in the cell works. And just 397 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 2: like a power station will power up a city, and 398 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:52,920 Speaker 2: if that power station goes down, the whole city goes down. 399 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 2: In our cells, we have little powerhouses called mitochondria, and 400 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,959 Speaker 2: the cyanide kills those completely, and so with any energy, 401 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 2: the cell dies, and if enough cells die, then the 402 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,159 Speaker 2: tissues and the whole body will eventually die. And that 403 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:11,119 Speaker 2: happens very quickly. Given a large amount of cyanide, it 404 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 2: can happen within a few seconds to a few minutes, 405 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 2: and so it's a very quick acting poison. One of 406 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 2: the people that used cyanide to kill was a person 407 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 2: called Graham Young. He had been placed therefore killing his 408 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 2: mother in law with thallium. Thallium was a poison. Again, 409 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 2: the Tagatha Christie wrote about in one of her books, 410 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,720 Speaker 2: and was a very unusual poison. Graham Young used thallium 411 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 2: to kill his mother in law, was sentenced and was 412 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,639 Speaker 2: placed in a hospital for the criminally insane. This was 413 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 2: in the nineteen sixties nineteen seventies, so not that long ago. 414 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:50,679 Speaker 2: Whilst he was in hospital, he had got annoyed with 415 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 2: some of the other inmates and had extracted cyanide from 416 00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 2: plants and trees that were growing on the grounds of 417 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 2: the hospital. Wow, and had killed other patients with cyanide 418 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 2: whilst he himself was in prison for killing other people 419 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 2: with thallium. So again that the rationale for why people 420 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,240 Speaker 2: chose to kill. This is a case where it's really 421 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 2: hard to figure out why someone would kill. He went 422 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:20,359 Speaker 2: into prison when he was fourteen years old. He was 423 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 2: the youngest person ever sentenced to a hospital for the 424 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 2: criminally insane, and even when he got out he carried 425 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:29,719 Speaker 2: on killing people. 426 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 1: That's incredible. So what ultimately happens. 427 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:37,159 Speaker 2: He was eventually convicted of killing multiple people, was sentenced 428 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:43,080 Speaker 2: back to hospital, where he eventually died in somewhat strange circumstances. 429 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 2: It's not clear whether he died of natural consequences, whether 430 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 2: he took his own life from some poison that he'd 431 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 2: managed to concoct. So the point being is that we 432 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:56,159 Speaker 2: can find poisons all around, and if a person is 433 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 2: determined enough to find a poison, even in a prison, 434 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 2: can find it. Cyanide is an interesting It is very 435 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,919 Speaker 2: rapidly used to kill. One of the things that is 436 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 2: also interesting is that people take cyanide every day. Anybody 437 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 2: that's taking a multi vitamin pill will be taking cyanide 438 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 2: because cyanide binds very tightly to certain molecules, and when 439 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:27,959 Speaker 2: it's bound very tightly, particularly to vitamin B for example, 440 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 2: it's incredibly innocuous, and so we can use that to 441 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 2: get rid of cyanide. Vitamin B injections are actually one 442 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:39,920 Speaker 2: of the cures for cyanide poisoning. If you can get 443 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:43,480 Speaker 2: vitamin BE injected into a victim quick enough, it will 444 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,639 Speaker 2: actually mop up all the cyanide and prevent the person 445 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:47,399 Speaker 2: from dying. 446 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 1: What's quick enough, though, how quick is that. 447 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:54,960 Speaker 2: It is within minutes? It is within minutes. Unfortunately, now 448 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 2: people who work around cyanide, So for example, people in 449 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 2: the gold mining industry work around cyanide because Cyanide is 450 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:07,360 Speaker 2: one of the few things that will react with gold, 451 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,640 Speaker 2: and so cyanide is used in the extraction and purification 452 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 2: of gold, and those individuals always carry around with them 453 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:18,199 Speaker 2: a cyanide kit that will allow them to be injected 454 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:22,159 Speaker 2: if they're ever exposed accidentally in that case to cyanide. 455 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 2: So people that working with cyanide will carry kits around 456 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:28,120 Speaker 2: that can be used for antidotes. 457 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,440 Speaker 1: What's your poison crush the most impressive poison? 458 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,879 Speaker 2: I think arsenic is usually my favorite poison. I know 459 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 2: it's an old poison and one that has a long history, 460 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:45,720 Speaker 2: but it also has a history of being used in homes. Surprisingly, 461 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 2: arsenic's been known as a poison obviously for many, many years, 462 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 2: even going back into the early times in Renaissance Europe, 463 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 2: the Borgias were famous for using arsenic to get rid 464 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 2: of any competitors. It's been known for any thousands of years. 465 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 2: Probably most people would not think about bringing poisons willingly 466 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 2: into their home, but during the Victorian era, people were 467 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 2: bringing in arsenic into their home in huge amounts, and 468 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 2: they were bringing it in with a newly discovered pigment. 469 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 2: This was called shields green that was made from arsenic 470 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 2: and at the time in Victorian houses, people were starting 471 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 2: to get gas lighting into their houses. People could see 472 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 2: the housing, so it seemed natural that they would put 473 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 2: wallpaper up to show off the fact that they now 474 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 2: were wealthy enough they could afford gas lighting. And obviously, 475 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 2: the more bright and impressive the pattern of your wallpaper, 476 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 2: the more important you were going to be. And one 477 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,479 Speaker 2: of the main colors that was used in wallpaper at 478 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 2: the time was a pigment called shields Green, which was 479 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 2: made from arsenic. And this shields Green was so vibrant, 480 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,720 Speaker 2: so widely used that not only was it used in wallpaper, 481 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 2: it was used on children's toys, it was used to 482 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 2: color clothing, and it was even used as a food coloring. 483 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 1: Wow. So sort of like asbestos are lead, but even 484 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 1: more prevalently used. 485 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 2: Wow, people were bringing this it into their homes. One 486 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 2: of the downsides to Victorian homes, even though they were 487 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 2: now covering their rooms with wallpaper, is that the homes 488 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 2: were very damp, and the wallpaper was usually attached to 489 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 2: the wall with a paste made out of flour. And 490 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 2: you can imagine that damp environments flower holding wallpaper to 491 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 2: the wall was a lovely food source for fungus, and 492 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 2: the fungus started chewing up the wallpaper and when they did, 493 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 2: they started breaking down the shields green dye and releasing 494 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,560 Speaker 2: a gas from arsenic called arsene gas that was being 495 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 2: released into the rooms, and it was eventually found the 496 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:06,360 Speaker 2: many Victorians were really suffering from arsenic poisoning. But ironically, 497 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 2: people decided that this could actually be a marketing tool 498 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 2: because if you put it in your bedroom, it would 499 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:18,720 Speaker 2: kill bedbugs. Oh gosh, So it was decided this would 500 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,880 Speaker 2: be a great marketing tool. It certainly killed bedbugs, but 501 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,720 Speaker 2: unfortunately it would also killed a lot of children. 502 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 1: Oh, in pets. And yeah, what's another poison that you 503 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 1: talk about in your book with another case. 504 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 2: I'm trying to think of poisons that people would not 505 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:38,640 Speaker 2: necessarily think of as poisons, and something that most of 506 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 2: us have in our houses, and this is bleach. Bleach, 507 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 2: as we know, is used to sterilize it and disinfect 508 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 2: it and is very good for that. And bleach has 509 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:54,280 Speaker 2: been one of the main things that has caused a 510 00:31:54,400 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 2: huge reduction in infectious diseases spreading and response for an 511 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 2: increase in life expectancy. It does that because it kills 512 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 2: biological material, and it will kill bugs. It will kill 513 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 2: bacteria and viruses for sure, but it's not something that 514 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:18,040 Speaker 2: you would want to get inside your body. Unfortunately, there 515 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:22,240 Speaker 2: was a healthcare worker, Kimberly Signs, who was working in 516 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:27,400 Speaker 2: a dialysis center in Lufkin, Texas, and she had decided 517 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 2: that some of the people who were coming in routinely 518 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:34,160 Speaker 2: for dialysis were just too annoying, were too demanding of 519 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:39,320 Speaker 2: her time, and so she decided that she would inject 520 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 2: bleach directly into their intravenous lines during dialysis. 521 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, she. 522 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 2: Was convicted of this. Again, she denied any involvement. She 523 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:55,640 Speaker 2: was surprised that anyone would even suspect her, despite the 524 00:32:55,800 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 2: numerous eyewitnesses seeing her and watching her doing this to patients. 525 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:04,800 Speaker 2: She maintained her innocence and that she was not responsible. 526 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,440 Speaker 2: And so this is again one of those two sided 527 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:11,520 Speaker 2: bases to chemicals is that they can be used for good, 528 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 2: but they can also be used for evil if they're 529 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:17,440 Speaker 2: used inappropriately. And that's one of the things I wanted 530 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,280 Speaker 2: to get out of the book, is that chemicals are 531 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:23,480 Speaker 2: not really bad in themselves or good in themselves. They're 532 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 2: just chemicals. And it really depends who's using them and 533 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 2: as to what reason they're using them that they become 534 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:31,240 Speaker 2: good or bad. 535 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 1: If you're a forensic pathologist and you have someone who's 536 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:39,240 Speaker 1: brought in who is dead and suspected of being poisoned, 537 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:42,360 Speaker 1: is there a catch all test that will go ding 538 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:46,200 Speaker 1: Ding arsenic or ding ding cyanide or do you have 539 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 1: to look at the body and decide what tests specifically 540 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:53,840 Speaker 1: to run. How do they find out which poison this is? 541 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,560 Speaker 2: There is no blanket tests that will say this is 542 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,480 Speaker 2: this poison. You can't just take a sample of blood 543 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 2: and put it into a machine and it pops out 544 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 2: this is what they were killed with. You really have 545 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,279 Speaker 2: to know what you're looking for, or have a good 546 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:13,280 Speaker 2: suspicion of what you're looking for. Now, there are certain 547 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:17,240 Speaker 2: things that will give clues as to what that poison 548 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:20,920 Speaker 2: may be. And we've discussed several poisons and how they kill, 549 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:25,720 Speaker 2: and these symptoms that are experienced by an individual vary 550 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 2: depending upon what poison an individual is given. We've talked 551 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:34,279 Speaker 2: about cyanide and we've said that that attacks the powerhouse 552 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:37,319 Speaker 2: of the cell. And one of the reasons that we 553 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 2: breathe is we have to bring in oxygen, and that 554 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 2: oxygen is used by the mitochondria to power our bodies, 555 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,400 Speaker 2: and cyanide stops that from happening, so the oxygen is 556 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:51,560 Speaker 2: not used in the body. And so the person who 557 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:56,760 Speaker 2: has been poisoned with cyanide typically has bright pink colored 558 00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 2: skin because their blood is loaded up with oxide, and 559 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,719 Speaker 2: they're appearing very fit and healthy and well. The other 560 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:09,840 Speaker 2: thing with cyanide is that most people, if they're poisoned 561 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:15,000 Speaker 2: with cyanide, are given a compound, usually potassium cyanide, which 562 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:19,080 Speaker 2: is swallowed, gets into the stomach, and when it reacts 563 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 2: with the acid in the stomach, produces another chemical called 564 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:27,160 Speaker 2: hydrocyanic acid, which is a gas, but it's also very 565 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:31,080 Speaker 2: toxic and will cause severe burning. So if you go 566 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:35,160 Speaker 2: into an individual that US SUS specters having cyanide poisoning 567 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:39,440 Speaker 2: and look at their stomach, it's usually very corroded because 568 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:43,400 Speaker 2: the hydrocyanic acid that's produced starts eating away at the 569 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:47,480 Speaker 2: stomach lining and can even go up into the esophagus 570 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:51,080 Speaker 2: and will cause frothing of the mouth. That people typically 571 00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 2: associate with cyanide poison. That's because the cyanide is getting 572 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:58,000 Speaker 2: into the lungs reacting with the fluid in the lungs 573 00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:01,879 Speaker 2: and causing it to froth. Of things, we've mentioned strychnine 574 00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:05,200 Speaker 2: that causes all the muscles in the body to contract, 575 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 2: and so the body is very stiff and very shaky, 576 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 2: and a lot of the times you can see people 577 00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:16,520 Speaker 2: that would have had very strong contractions of their muscles, 578 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 2: and if someone has witnessed their death, they can see that. 579 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:22,319 Speaker 2: So there are lots of clus as to what the 580 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:27,200 Speaker 2: poison may be because they all give slightly different symptoms, 581 00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:30,799 Speaker 2: and so you can figure out roughly what area of 582 00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:34,360 Speaker 2: drugs that you may be looking for. Things like strychnine 583 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:39,000 Speaker 2: are part of a broader class of chemicals called plant alkaloids, 584 00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:43,279 Speaker 2: which are very widespread in terms of poisons, but they 585 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:47,560 Speaker 2: also contain rather benign compounds like quinine that we would 586 00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:51,920 Speaker 2: have in tonic water. So alkaloids are detectable, but you 587 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,160 Speaker 2: have to know that you're looking for an alkaloid and 588 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,400 Speaker 2: there are certain symptoms that would be indicative of that. 589 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:01,560 Speaker 2: So even though there is no blanket way of detecting poisons, 590 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:03,480 Speaker 2: you do have to know what you're looking for, but 591 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:07,440 Speaker 2: clues from how the person died and what the body 592 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:10,960 Speaker 2: looks like. Now give you an indication of what direction 593 00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:13,560 Speaker 2: you need to go in to look for a particular poison. 594 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:18,040 Speaker 1: I feel like poison really hit its stride in America 595 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:21,400 Speaker 1: with Arsenic and Old Lace, which I love that movie. 596 00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:25,279 Speaker 1: Turning the poisoning of pensioners into a comedy is an 597 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,200 Speaker 1: odd choice, but it is a legacy. 598 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:32,040 Speaker 2: Movie it is, and arsenic is certainly something that's been 599 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:36,200 Speaker 2: used widely even in America. In the nineteen twenties, there 600 00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:41,800 Speaker 2: was a big legal case referred to as the Philadelphia 601 00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:47,520 Speaker 2: murder plot, and this centered around women who were convinced 602 00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:51,799 Speaker 2: to take out life policies against their husbands. The policy 603 00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:55,960 Speaker 2: was then taken out and the wives were then given 604 00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:59,880 Speaker 2: arsenic to kill their husbands. The wives then went and 605 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:04,000 Speaker 2: collected the life insurance policies. Of course, they had to 606 00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:06,920 Speaker 2: give a percentage of the policy to the person that 607 00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:09,680 Speaker 2: had supplied the arsenic to them in the first place. 608 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:13,880 Speaker 2: But this was a major criminal case. In the nineteen twenties, 609 00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:18,080 Speaker 2: people were taking out large amounts of life insurance policies 610 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:20,320 Speaker 2: and it was a huge ring. It was a large 611 00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:24,000 Speaker 2: conspiracy and many people were sent to prison because of this. 612 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:26,520 Speaker 1: What are the lessons learned about poisons. 613 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:31,080 Speaker 2: I would hope the takeaway from the book is learning 614 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:34,680 Speaker 2: about the body. Our body is really remarkable and it, 615 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:38,920 Speaker 2: for the most part, works very well. Poisons will certainly 616 00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:41,600 Speaker 2: be harmful to our body, but some of the time 617 00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:45,160 Speaker 2: those same poisons can actually be useful in healing our bodies. 618 00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:48,960 Speaker 2: And so it's not necessarily that a chemical is bad. 619 00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:53,440 Speaker 2: It just depends how it's used. And oftentimes we may 620 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:56,240 Speaker 2: be given something by a doctor that has been used 621 00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:59,320 Speaker 2: as a poison in the past but can be used 622 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,560 Speaker 2: for our benefit. I want to get that across that 623 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:07,240 Speaker 2: poisons are interesting, they are useful. It's been used for 624 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,000 Speaker 2: learning a lot about the body. It gives us a 625 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:13,120 Speaker 2: lot of information about how our body works. But ultimately, 626 00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:17,480 Speaker 2: poisons are detectable and it is not a means now 627 00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:20,160 Speaker 2: that many people would ever get away with killing by 628 00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:21,120 Speaker 2: using poisoning. 629 00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,920 Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked Words, David Crowe on 630 00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:33,080 Speaker 1: his abusive father who turned killer. 631 00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:36,680 Speaker 3: By the time I hit nine ten years old. He 632 00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,160 Speaker 3: was teaching me how to steal tools and for me 633 00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:42,399 Speaker 3: to be his lookout. He was explaining to me why 634 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,560 Speaker 3: sometimes killing is the only answer you have to live 635 00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:49,120 Speaker 3: by your own rules and eventually start telling me stories 636 00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:50,120 Speaker 3: about San Quentin. 637 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:04,880 Speaker 1: My new book, All That Is Wicked is available now, 638 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,880 Speaker 1: including the audiobook. All that Is Wicked is based on 639 00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:10,600 Speaker 1: our first season of tenfold War Wicked. You might think 640 00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:13,360 Speaker 1: you know the whole story of Killer Edward Ruloff's crimes, 641 00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:16,440 Speaker 1: but there's so much more. My book American Sherlock is 642 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:20,040 Speaker 1: also available. This has been an exactly right tenfold war 643 00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:24,160 Speaker 1: media production. The producer is Alexis Mrosi. Our mixer is 644 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,960 Speaker 1: Ryo Baum. Curtis Heath is Our composer, Nick Toga did 645 00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:32,080 Speaker 1: the artwork. Ilsa Brink designed the website. The executive producers 646 00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:36,640 Speaker 1: are Georgia Hartstark, Karen Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked 647 00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:40,319 Speaker 1: Words on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more Wicked and 648 00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,319 Speaker 1: on Twitter at tenfold More and If you know of 649 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:47,080 Speaker 1: a historical crime that could use some attention, especially if 650 00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:50,439 Speaker 1: it happened in your family, email us at info at 651 00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:54,600 Speaker 1: tenfoldwar Wicked dot com. We'll also take your suggestions for 652 00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:56,880 Speaker 1: true crime authors for Wicked Words