WEBVTT - TechStuff Classic: Tech in the Post Apocalyptic World (Part 1) 0:00:04.400 --> 0:00:12.320 Welcome to tech Stuff, a production from my Heart Radio. Hey, then, 0:00:12.480 --> 0:00:15.560 welcome to tech Stuff. I'm your host, Jonathan Strickland. I'm 0:00:15.560 --> 0:00:18.639 an executive producer with I Heart Radio and how the 0:00:18.800 --> 0:00:23.320 Tech Area. It's time for a tech Stuff classic episode. 0:00:23.920 --> 0:00:28.320 This episode originally published on August third, two thou fifteen. 0:00:28.680 --> 0:00:32.840 It is titled tech in the post Apocalyptic World, Part One, 0:00:33.520 --> 0:00:36.640 and Joe McCormick of Stuff to Blow Your Mind Fame 0:00:36.800 --> 0:00:40.159 joined me for this episode where we talk about what 0:00:40.440 --> 0:00:45.440 tech will look like. Should you know the apocalypse actually happened? 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:49.400 This was before the pandemic, y'all. We didn't really have 0:00:49.440 --> 0:00:52.199 an idea of what an apocalypse was gonna be. And 0:00:52.320 --> 0:00:55.520 now we all know it mostly involves watching a lot 0:00:55.560 --> 0:00:58.760 of Netflix and trying to, you know, stay home and 0:00:58.800 --> 0:01:01.400 wear masks whenever we have to go out. But back 0:01:01.440 --> 0:01:03.600 then we didn't have any idea. So let's listen in. 0:01:04.560 --> 0:01:06.800 Thank you for having me on to day, Jonathan, especially 0:01:06.880 --> 0:01:10.560 to talk about this really exciting topic, Clayton Utter breakdown 0:01:10.560 --> 0:01:13.399 of society. Yeah. Okay, So first, Joe, before I get 0:01:13.440 --> 0:01:16.920 into the listener request that prompted this entire episode, I 0:01:16.959 --> 0:01:20.600 should let you know that the previous episodes that went 0:01:20.760 --> 0:01:24.200 up and we're just recorded were with Ben Bolin about 0:01:24.200 --> 0:01:28.280 the Manhattan Project, so it tells nicely into this one. Um. 0:01:28.800 --> 0:01:32.240 So the this discussion actually comes to us because a listener, 0:01:32.440 --> 0:01:36.360 Benjamin G. McCall on Twitter's wrote to us and said, 0:01:36.400 --> 0:01:39.000 after watching Mad Max, I'm wondering what tech would be 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:42.319 viable in a post apocalyptic world, what which tech would 0:01:42.319 --> 0:01:47.520 be jerry rigged? So really, this is such a huge topic. 0:01:48.160 --> 0:01:52.200 We could end up having discussions about all sorts of 0:01:52.200 --> 0:01:54.920 different doomsday scenarios. Yeah, I know. One of the options 0:01:54.960 --> 0:01:57.480 we talked about for this episode was just coming up 0:01:57.520 --> 0:02:00.800 with a list of like the maybe I don't know, 0:02:01.000 --> 0:02:04.280 weird tech hacks you could make, yeah, in a post 0:02:04.280 --> 0:02:07.480 apocalyptic scenario. But then we realized, like, uh, you know, 0:02:07.600 --> 0:02:10.119 we're not the inventors of the waste land, right, Yeah. 0:02:10.120 --> 0:02:13.600 There there are so many different science fiction stories out 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:17.440 there that cover this sort of material that two to 0:02:17.760 --> 0:02:19.800 kind of. I mean, we could have, I guess gone 0:02:19.800 --> 0:02:22.880 through each one and graded it on a plausibility scale, 0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:24.960 but that would have taken forever to sure. But we 0:02:25.000 --> 0:02:27.880 figured maybe a better approach would be to say, Okay, 0:02:27.960 --> 0:02:33.400 let's imagine there's a scenario that has represented a technological apocalypse. 0:02:33.840 --> 0:02:37.160 Suddenly all of the technology that sustains our lives that 0:02:37.280 --> 0:02:39.840 usually just runs in the background and keeps us happy 0:02:39.880 --> 0:02:42.600 without us even noticing what it does for us. What 0:02:42.680 --> 0:02:46.080 if all that went away? Yeah, so we're not so 0:02:46.160 --> 0:02:49.480 much focusing on specific scenarios. We will some of them 0:02:49.480 --> 0:02:53.120 will come into play because they factor into, uh, the 0:02:53.200 --> 0:02:56.520 contingencies we might we might use in the case of 0:02:56.560 --> 0:03:00.480 a catastrophic failure of technology, Like there could be somewhere 0:03:00.480 --> 0:03:02.359 you say, hey, what if we use blah blah blah. 0:03:02.440 --> 0:03:06.240 So well, if the reason for the catastrophe he was 0:03:06.320 --> 0:03:09.080 this blah blah blah, would not work. We'll get into that. 0:03:09.440 --> 0:03:13.000 But but just some general catastrophes that that could be 0:03:13.160 --> 0:03:16.000 the ones that lead into this nuclear war would be 0:03:16.000 --> 0:03:18.680 a big one. Right, so that people always want to say, 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:22.560 zombie attack, zombie attack. Okay, so some sort of pandemic 0:03:22.720 --> 0:03:25.280 would be a possibility, right, The more realistic version of 0:03:26.360 --> 0:03:29.840 and pandemics could end up being something that is directly 0:03:29.840 --> 0:03:33.079 affecting people, or could be indirectly affecting by killing off 0:03:33.160 --> 0:03:36.320 let's say, crops or livestock, anything like that that could 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:42.040 lead to famine obviously, could also capitulate into technological failures 0:03:42.360 --> 0:03:45.320 sure like is imagined in the movie Interstellar, where they 0:03:45.360 --> 0:03:48.040 talk about the idea that there's like crop blight getting 0:03:48.320 --> 0:03:50.720 all of their food supply. Yea, So in that case, 0:03:51.640 --> 0:03:54.960 you could end up having a vast reduction of the 0:03:55.000 --> 0:04:00.240 population on Earth, which in turn would cause technological issues. Uh, 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:02.560 there are a lot of other ones to super Volcanic 0:04:02.800 --> 0:04:07.720 eruption could potentially at least for leading to catastrophic climate change. 0:04:07.800 --> 0:04:11.960 Really anything that leads to catastrophic climate change, So really 0:04:12.000 --> 0:04:16.040 just waiting around right. Sadly, I wish that weren't the case, 0:04:16.120 --> 0:04:18.840 but uh so, there are a lot of different scenarios 0:04:18.839 --> 0:04:21.240 that could lead to this, and and we've got a 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:24.200 whole bunch of different variations of that in literature. And 0:04:24.360 --> 0:04:27.000 at the end of this episode, Joe and I are 0:04:27.000 --> 0:04:32.000 going to talk about our favorite post apocalyptic stories and scenarios. Uh. 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:34.000 The reason why I'm putting it at the end is 0:04:34.000 --> 0:04:36.360 so that we have something wonderful to look forward to 0:04:36.800 --> 0:04:40.360 on our journey through terror. But honestly, my favorite ones 0:04:40.400 --> 0:04:43.600 are kind of depressing, so so are mine. It's fine, 0:04:43.960 --> 0:04:45.479 but I mean it's kind of hard to have an 0:04:45.600 --> 0:04:49.039 upbeat post apocalyptic scenario. I promise you, folks, you're at 0:04:49.080 --> 0:04:52.680 least gonna hear us talk about Zardas. Yes, Czar does. 0:04:53.200 --> 0:04:55.719 But okay, what's the first thing that we need to 0:04:55.720 --> 0:04:58.760 talk about? The big tune in the basket, as I 0:04:58.839 --> 0:05:01.960 might say from I think I said that recently. I'm 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:03.840 pretty sure that was a forward thinking but I'm not 0:05:04.120 --> 0:05:08.920 entirely certain. But out of the basket, it's power. Yeah, 0:05:08.960 --> 0:05:11.960 the power grid. Yeah, the power grid where our energy 0:05:12.000 --> 0:05:15.960 comes from, because almost everything that sustains their life depends 0:05:16.000 --> 0:05:18.080 on it. Yeah, and on some form or another, If 0:05:18.120 --> 0:05:22.320 not directly, then indirectly. Correct. So, yeah, the power grid 0:05:22.560 --> 0:05:25.920 is the big one. Let's say that whatever the catastrophe 0:05:26.000 --> 0:05:29.520 is has hit the power grid, and we're largely going 0:05:29.560 --> 0:05:31.479 to be focusing on the United States because that's where 0:05:31.520 --> 0:05:35.039 Joe and I live. But power grids across the world 0:05:35.200 --> 0:05:39.520 have varying degrees of vulnerability. Many of them are very old. 0:05:39.560 --> 0:05:41.600 There are elements of the United States power grid that 0:05:41.720 --> 0:05:44.760 date back to the late nineteenth century. Yeah. In fact, 0:05:44.880 --> 0:05:49.120 our current power grid is not there. Oh man, I 0:05:49.200 --> 0:05:54.440 hate it when that happens. Our press temporary power grid 0:05:56.040 --> 0:05:59.280 is not necessarily in the best of shape. No, this 0:05:59.320 --> 0:06:01.840 could come as a rude awakening to some people. Yeah, 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:04.559 So here's here's the deal. First of all, the power 0:06:04.600 --> 0:06:07.400 grid is incredibly complex. We talk about it as if 0:06:07.400 --> 0:06:10.440 it's this big, united thing, but really it's a collection 0:06:10.640 --> 0:06:15.599 of lots of smaller things. So, in most basic terms, 0:06:15.600 --> 0:06:18.200 how does it work? All? Right, most basic terms, if 0:06:18.240 --> 0:06:22.480 you want to look at kind of the microcosm, the 0:06:22.920 --> 0:06:25.920 individual element that makes up the power grid, you're looking 0:06:25.920 --> 0:06:29.080 at a power plant, uh, something that is generating electricity 0:06:29.120 --> 0:06:31.280 through some means. There are a lot of different versions 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:33.840 of this. There are coal fired power plants that use 0:06:33.920 --> 0:06:37.000 coal to generate heat, turns water into steam. Steam turns 0:06:37.000 --> 0:06:40.280 a turbine that's what generates the electricity. Uh. Have a 0:06:40.360 --> 0:06:43.240 hydro electric plant hydro electric that's using the power of 0:06:43.279 --> 0:06:46.920 water moving turbines in a similar fashion, there are wind 0:06:47.120 --> 0:06:50.280 turbines that use wind to do that. Solar generation where 0:06:50.279 --> 0:06:56.000 you're you're you're really just converting solar power into electricity. 0:06:56.080 --> 0:06:59.240 That's one of the few that doesn't require steam or 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:02.520 or turbine. Yeah. You've got, of course, nuclear power, which 0:07:02.640 --> 0:07:05.760 is really like coal fired on steroids, except it's using 0:07:05.760 --> 0:07:09.960 obviously nuclear fuel, not burning coal. No smoke, No smoke, 0:07:10.480 --> 0:07:13.440 there's lots of steam. Uh. Yeah, if you're if you 0:07:13.520 --> 0:07:17.080 are have designed it properly, it's perfectly safe. At least 0:07:17.080 --> 0:07:20.760 the operation is the nuclear fuel and the waste generated 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:23.520 is something else that is an issue, but we're not 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:25.640 going to go into that because it's just it's it's 0:07:25.720 --> 0:07:27.720 a side issue to what we're talking about today. Though, 0:07:27.760 --> 0:07:29.480 if you are interested in that, we did a couple 0:07:29.480 --> 0:07:32.800 of episodes before thinking about that some time last year. Yeah, 0:07:32.840 --> 0:07:35.800 those were a lot of fun, So definitely recommend us. 0:07:35.800 --> 0:07:38.880 One might be a word to describe how we h, well, 0:07:38.880 --> 0:07:41.920 it was fun nuclear ways fun in the sense of 0:07:42.080 --> 0:07:45.560 really trying to wrap your brain around something that's truly complicated, 0:07:45.600 --> 0:07:48.920 not just the technology but the political and cultural side 0:07:48.920 --> 0:07:52.400 of it. Uh. Then you also have things like, um not, 0:07:52.960 --> 0:07:56.680 there's there's natural gas uh. And there's also oil power 0:07:57.120 --> 0:07:59.760 power plants, power plants that rely on oil belthough that's 0:07:59.760 --> 0:08:01.800 a very small percentage of the ones that are used 0:08:01.840 --> 0:08:04.520 here in the United States. So you've got these power plants. 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:08.000 They generate the electricity a the the electricity is sent 0:08:08.040 --> 0:08:12.320 through a transformer which steps up the voltage The reason 0:08:12.360 --> 0:08:15.800 for this is that the higher voltages will transmit over 0:08:15.840 --> 0:08:18.640 a greater distance with less loss of energy. Right, so 0:08:18.680 --> 0:08:21.400 this's going to be alternating current going out through all 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:24.200 of the wires of the grid to the neighborhood. Direct 0:08:24.200 --> 0:08:26.240 current will not work in a transformer. You have to 0:08:26.320 --> 0:08:29.800 use alternating current. So yeah, it steps up the power 0:08:30.200 --> 0:08:33.240 you have. You have different types of lines. There's a 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:37.040 distribution power line that is pretty heavy duty. That's what 0:08:37.120 --> 0:08:40.280 carries the super high voltage that gets stepped down by 0:08:40.320 --> 0:08:42.520 a different type of transformer for the power lines that 0:08:42.559 --> 0:08:45.240 you typically see in the neighborhood. So like the telephone 0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:49.360 polls that have the power lines um uh dangling from them, 0:08:49.559 --> 0:08:52.760 particularly on a hot George today. Uh, those are those 0:08:52.800 --> 0:08:56.640 have been stepped down from the major transmission lines. There's 0:08:56.640 --> 0:09:00.120 another transformer that will step that power down again for 0:09:00.240 --> 0:09:02.720 it goes into a building or a home or whatever 0:09:02.800 --> 0:09:06.439 to be the proper voltage for us here. Uh. So 0:09:07.000 --> 0:09:10.160 that's your basic setup, right. That's and the power grid 0:09:10.240 --> 0:09:13.040 is made up of lots of these. By the way, 0:09:13.080 --> 0:09:17.840 these power plants are run by different organizations, different entities, 0:09:18.240 --> 0:09:21.240 so it's not all a unified thing here in the 0:09:21.280 --> 0:09:24.240 United states, and not just like the government or something 0:09:25.160 --> 0:09:28.600 privately owned power generation company. It's not like the monopoly 0:09:28.760 --> 0:09:31.040 board where you just you land on the utility and 0:09:31.080 --> 0:09:33.160 you own it and that's all of it. It's not 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:35.959 the way it works. So it's the real monopoly. You 0:09:36.000 --> 0:09:38.360 should be able to win monopoly as soon as you 0:09:38.400 --> 0:09:42.040 buy electric, right like exactly like, hey, do you want 0:09:42.040 --> 0:09:45.200 power in your hotel? Guess at buddy, I am it. 0:09:46.120 --> 0:09:48.840 So as it turns out, that's you know, that's not 0:09:48.880 --> 0:09:51.040 the case. There are all these different entities across the 0:09:51.040 --> 0:09:55.080 power grid that and that generate power, and they're doing 0:09:55.080 --> 0:09:57.480 it with different types of hardware and software, which makes 0:09:57.480 --> 0:09:59.559 it even more complicated. And we'll talk about that a 0:09:59.600 --> 0:10:03.920 little bit when we get into cybersecurity. So um. Because 0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:10.360 of this complexity, there are lots of potential points of failure. Uh. 0:10:10.400 --> 0:10:17.440 And the complexity both cushions the power grid from failure 0:10:17.520 --> 0:10:21.520 and also is vulnerable to to further failure. It all 0:10:21.559 --> 0:10:25.559 depends upon the actual conditions that exist at any given time, right. 0:10:25.600 --> 0:10:27.960 I guess in the best case scenarios, all of the 0:10:28.000 --> 0:10:30.600 interconnectedness of it would mean in some cases you have 0:10:30.679 --> 0:10:32.840 some degree of redundancy. Yeah, It's kind of like if 0:10:32.840 --> 0:10:35.480 you think about the Internet, how if a a single 0:10:35.520 --> 0:10:40.559 computer goes down, traffic can route around it. The power 0:10:40.600 --> 0:10:44.559 grids kind of like that. But depending upon where you are, 0:10:44.720 --> 0:10:46.960 you may, you know, if a power plant goes offline 0:10:47.000 --> 0:10:50.079 for whatever reasons, if it is quote unquote tripped, which 0:10:50.240 --> 0:10:54.640 means that it turns off essentially for any amount of time, 0:10:55.280 --> 0:10:59.200 you may be without power until it's returned to service. Uh. 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:01.680 Other area as might be able to receive power through 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:05.400 rerouting or whatever. But the goal, of course, is to 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:08.760 create a smart grid that can respond to those issues 0:11:09.120 --> 0:11:12.360 in real time. But the reality is we do not 0:11:12.600 --> 0:11:15.319 have a truly smart grid throughout the United States. It's 0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:18.319 not a unified system like that. Here's an interesting fact 0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:20.960 I'm seeing in the notes that I wasn't aware of before. 0:11:21.040 --> 0:11:25.160 So we've got three interconnected grids in the United States. 0:11:25.240 --> 0:11:28.600 That's correct. I didn't know about this. Yeah, the Eastern Interconnection, 0:11:29.200 --> 0:11:31.480 which you would think at first, Oh, that's gonna be 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:34.319 the East coast, right, Well, yes, it's the East coast 0:11:34.400 --> 0:11:37.360 all the way out to the Rocky Mountains. Uh. Yeah, 0:11:37.760 --> 0:11:40.560 that's the Eastern Interconnection. It's a large part of the 0:11:40.679 --> 0:11:43.520 nation and then you've got the Western Interconnection, which is 0:11:43.520 --> 0:11:46.760 the Rocky Mountains to the Pacific. And then you've got 0:11:46.960 --> 0:11:52.360 the Texas Interconnected System which covers Texas. Big shock there. 0:11:52.679 --> 0:11:56.400 So uh, I don't mean that in that electricity sense either, 0:11:56.440 --> 0:11:59.240 So I didn't mean to, but yes, you've got these 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:02.600 three larger interconnected grids that collectively make the power grid 0:12:02.640 --> 0:12:05.400 of the United States. We'll be back with more of 0:12:05.440 --> 0:12:08.360 this classic episode of tech stuff after this quick break. 0:12:17.960 --> 0:12:20.760 There are two related concepts when it comes to power 0:12:20.800 --> 0:12:23.760 grids that we want to talk about. There's reliability and 0:12:23.800 --> 0:12:28.160 there's resiliency. So reliability is how consistent is that power grid, 0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:32.680 How frequently are there any interruptions in power? The fewer, 0:12:32.720 --> 0:12:36.120 the more reliable, obviously, so if you're having frequent brown outs, 0:12:36.400 --> 0:12:40.000 that's not reliable. No, it's not reliable. It would be 0:12:40.400 --> 0:12:43.960 rough to uh, and obviously we have had periods of 0:12:43.960 --> 0:12:45.920 that in the history of the United States and in 0:12:46.000 --> 0:12:49.160 different regions. Then there's resiliency, which refers to the power 0:12:49.160 --> 0:12:52.760 grid's ability to withstand adverse effects like solar flare activity 0:12:52.880 --> 0:12:56.600 or severe weather or you know, an apocalyptic scenario like 0:12:56.640 --> 0:12:58.400 if an e MP went off. By the way, if 0:12:58.400 --> 0:13:00.880 any MP goes off electromne atic pulse, that's what that 0:13:00.920 --> 0:13:03.719 stands for. Uh, there's not I don't think there's a 0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:06.520 power grid on the world that is resilient enough to 0:13:06.600 --> 0:13:11.200 withstand a truly powerful electromagnetic pulse. UM. Also, the interesting 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:13.200 thing with those is that you know, you hear about these, 0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:17.640 like especially in movies. You'll see uh like Oceans eleven 0:13:17.840 --> 0:13:20.080 uses an e MP at one point to knock out 0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:23.319 the security system of casino because if you're gonna do it, 0:13:24.120 --> 0:13:27.000 this will go a whole long Um. Then they get 0:13:27.000 --> 0:13:31.440 back outside somehow. Yeah. Yeah, at any well, you know, hey, 0:13:31.440 --> 0:13:34.160 it's a movie. But at any way, the the e 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:36.320 m p s, depending upon how powerful they are, they 0:13:36.400 --> 0:13:39.960 and how close you are to the pulse. Uh, that 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:44.400 can affect all sorts of levels of electronics. Although generally speaking, 0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:48.680 the larger the system, the more vulnerable it is, because 0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:52.160 the more more likely it will have current running through 0:13:52.160 --> 0:13:55.080 it as a result of this electromagnetic pulse. It's the 0:13:55.120 --> 0:13:58.760 same principle that's affecting the transformers. It's just imagine that 0:13:59.360 --> 0:14:03.320 it's this enormous pulse that isn't a controlled element of 0:14:03.360 --> 0:14:07.120 the power grid. So uh, most e MPs would probably 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:10.640 affect large systems like the power grid, but leave smaller 0:14:10.679 --> 0:14:13.080 stuff like the The less complicated and smaller it is, 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:15.160 the less likely it's going to be directly affected by 0:14:15.160 --> 0:14:19.480 the e mph So your battery operated stuff might work 0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:21.680 for a while, at least until the batteries run out, 0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:23.640 even in the face of an MP unless you happen 0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:26.320 to be really close to where the pulse goes off. Alright, 0:14:26.360 --> 0:14:31.120 So resiliency and reliability to very important concepts. I read 0:14:31.120 --> 0:14:35.960 a report and boy was this report card? It was 0:14:36.000 --> 0:14:39.320 a report card. Yeah, The American Society of Civil Engineers 0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:42.560 released a report card that graded the United States on 0:14:42.720 --> 0:14:46.000 various elements of its infrastructure. And this came out in 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:48.800 two thousand thirteen. The whole thing is available online. It's 0:14:48.800 --> 0:14:52.040 a very interactive site that will depress you if you 0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:55.280 live in the United States because overall US got a 0:14:55.400 --> 0:15:00.400 D plus and that was for everything. That included things 0:15:00.480 --> 0:15:04.600 like not just electricity and energy, but drinking water bridges, 0:15:04.720 --> 0:15:09.320 Damn's hazardous waste handling, and aviation were also in there. Um, 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:11.640 none of the grades were great. So what's are like 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:16.600 GYM class grade that's waiting it up? Oh? Right, Um, yeah, 0:15:16.840 --> 0:15:19.000 some of them are a little better than others. Actually, 0:15:19.040 --> 0:15:22.800 D plus being the average the g p A. That's 0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:26.320 also what we got for energy. So it's still a 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:29.800 failing grade, but it's one of the higher ones. I mean, like, 0:15:29.800 --> 0:15:32.760 it's not a D, like are I think? I think 0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:35.600 Bridges got a D. So like, so what you're telling 0:15:35.600 --> 0:15:37.480 me is I really need to charge my cell phone 0:15:37.520 --> 0:15:39.800 before the zombies attack, and you really need to make 0:15:39.800 --> 0:15:44.200 sure your your your commute home doesn't go over Bridges. Um. Yeah, 0:15:44.440 --> 0:15:46.800 they also, by the way, grade at individual states. Not 0:15:46.880 --> 0:15:50.600 every state got a grade, but Georgia did. We gotta ce. 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:55.320 Oh so that's better than average, Yeah, we we it's 0:15:55.360 --> 0:15:57.800 better than the average score for the United States. By 0:15:57.840 --> 0:16:00.480 the way, in case you are unfamiliar with this grading score, 0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:04.640 the scale of grading. Uh, the school's not used that anymore, 0:16:05.000 --> 0:16:07.680 not not not universally, and we have listeners from all 0:16:07.680 --> 0:16:10.960 over the world. So this would be a grade system 0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:14.480 that typically goes A, B and C would be the 0:16:15.200 --> 0:16:18.840 passing grades. See being average, B being good, and A 0:16:19.000 --> 0:16:22.560 being superior. Then you have D, which is technically a 0:16:22.600 --> 0:16:25.480 failing grade, and you've got plus and minus as well. 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:27.640 So on the high side. D plus would be oh, 0:16:27.680 --> 0:16:31.040 you almost passed, but you didn't. Uh. I don't know 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:34.760 if anyone who has ever used E, but F means fail. 0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:39.160 I thought a D was just a shameful passing grade. 0:16:39.600 --> 0:16:41.680 I always thought of C as well. Maybe, but I 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:44.240 always thought C was passing, like C minus was the 0:16:44.840 --> 0:16:47.880 for me, the threshold of passing. Essentially, that was the 0:16:48.200 --> 0:16:52.480 equivalent if you looked at it percentiles A seventy. Folks 0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:54.160 right in and let us know what you think about 0:16:54.280 --> 0:16:58.800 D S. Yeah, yeah, I'm pretty sure it's a failing grade, 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:01.600 but I could be wrong. F is outright fail. D 0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:05.120 is like on the cusp um. So maybe I guess 0:17:05.160 --> 0:17:07.119 if you're a glass half full kind of guy, you 0:17:07.200 --> 0:17:10.600 might say that D is a passing grade D plus 0:17:11.160 --> 0:17:13.960 for energy. Energy, by the way, was not just the 0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:16.840 power grid. It was all the elements of energy in 0:17:16.880 --> 0:17:19.399 the United States, but they did focus quite a bit 0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:22.840 on the power grid. They reported the aging infrastructure of 0:17:22.880 --> 0:17:25.240 the power grid as a huge problem, some of it 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:28.120 again dating all the way back to the late eighteen hundreds, 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:32.840 so it's pretty old. Um. And they also said that 0:17:33.040 --> 0:17:38.119 they these older facilities in particular are uh, they're prone 0:17:38.200 --> 0:17:40.600 for failure for things like just the fact that it's 0:17:40.640 --> 0:17:45.520 such an aging infrastructure. Uh, they're not very good at handling, uh, 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:49.040 adverse conditions like weather events or solar flares, that sort 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:52.760 of stuff. And they said that, uh, the significant power 0:17:52.760 --> 0:17:55.399 outages in general are on the rise. They said there 0:17:55.400 --> 0:17:59.880 were seventy six recorded significant power outages. They didn't define 0:18:00.000 --> 0:18:02.879 what significant means in the stuff I was reading, so 0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:05.679 I'm not sure exactly what that refers to. But seventy 0:18:05.720 --> 0:18:08.159 six of them in two thousand seven and three hundred 0:18:08.280 --> 0:18:11.080 seven of them in two thousand eleven. So it's a 0:18:11.119 --> 0:18:15.679 problem that is getting worse. So that's that's an issue. 0:18:16.080 --> 0:18:18.240 But they also had some less awful news in it. 0:18:19.720 --> 0:18:22.879 So they said that the United States is having a 0:18:23.000 --> 0:18:27.000 very slow growth in population in general. The rate of 0:18:27.040 --> 0:18:30.600 increases is fairly low when it comes to the need 0:18:30.720 --> 0:18:34.159 for electricity. So in other words, our population isn't growing 0:18:34.200 --> 0:18:38.480 so quickly that our need for electricity is outpacing our 0:18:38.560 --> 0:18:44.119 ability to generate electricity. And in fact, there probably won't 0:18:44.119 --> 0:18:48.720 be a significant issue until around And that's that's saying 0:18:48.720 --> 0:18:52.240 that we don't we haven't invested in our ability to 0:18:52.320 --> 0:18:55.520 generate electricity. They of course very strongly advocate that we 0:18:55.520 --> 0:18:59.560 should be investing in that, both in the the power 0:18:59.600 --> 0:19:04.480 generation or the electricity generation and the transmission of electricity. 0:19:04.720 --> 0:19:07.639 All right, well, let's look at one particular type of 0:19:07.720 --> 0:19:12.080 threat to our energy infrastructure. How about a cyber attack. Yeah, 0:19:12.080 --> 0:19:14.919 we've talked about this on tech stuff quite a few times. Uh, 0:19:15.119 --> 0:19:19.080 I mean, could foreign hackers just shut down the United 0:19:19.119 --> 0:19:24.120 States with some with some smart malicious computer people, Probably 0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:28.879 not the United States, but certainly elements within the United 0:19:28.880 --> 0:19:34.560 States very targeted ones. Yes, because this is not a 0:19:34.600 --> 0:19:38.520 surprise we have discovered we being people in the United States, 0:19:38.520 --> 0:19:43.240 not myself in particular, UM, that there are elements of code, 0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:48.760 malicious code within several different facilities throughout the United States, 0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:52.760 within our our power grid infrastructure. UM a lot a 0:19:52.760 --> 0:19:56.439 lot of them originating from China, some from Russia. But 0:19:56.720 --> 0:20:00.680 there are elements of code that clear really have been 0:20:00.720 --> 0:20:06.680 planted there, possibly as a way to weed out vulnerabilities 0:20:07.240 --> 0:20:11.320 and uh, you know, in the effort to exploit them 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:15.080 in some potential future. So it's not necessarily the case 0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:17.000 that these are all going to shut off on the 0:20:17.040 --> 0:20:18.879 same day. In fact, that's probably not going to happen. 0:20:18.920 --> 0:20:21.200 And it's largely because of what I talked about earlier, 0:20:21.720 --> 0:20:23.399 the fact that the power grid is actually made up 0:20:23.400 --> 0:20:27.200 of all this diverse you know, hardware and software run 0:20:27.240 --> 0:20:31.919 by different organizations. It means that there's not a unified 0:20:32.600 --> 0:20:36.320 means of shutting everything down, so any attacks would probably 0:20:36.359 --> 0:20:40.240 be very specific, and people know to look out for 0:20:40.240 --> 0:20:43.880 this stuff now, So there's there's there might be individual 0:20:44.000 --> 0:20:47.760 utilities that are lagging behind because they're not paying enough 0:20:47.800 --> 0:20:51.760 attention to this problem. But it's not a universal issue. 0:20:51.880 --> 0:20:53.879 So in other words, it's kind of patchwork, right. You 0:20:54.119 --> 0:20:57.840 You may be that the target you've selected is really vulnerable, 0:20:58.160 --> 0:21:00.000 but also means that the effects are going to be 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:03.720 localized to that area. You can't you can't say like, oh, 0:21:03.800 --> 0:21:06.240 he has a big red switch and when we push 0:21:06.280 --> 0:21:08.760 it that lights go out. It's not gonna be like that. Also, 0:21:08.800 --> 0:21:11.640 I don't know why I would, Well, they're actually Austrian, 0:21:11.840 --> 0:21:15.600 but it is just because that's where I go for 0:21:15.720 --> 0:21:19.720 the my mad scientist. It is the best mad scientist 0:21:19.760 --> 0:21:23.560 accent to our German or Austrian listeners, no or to 0:21:23.640 --> 0:21:26.320 our Russian ones who who really agree that the Russian 0:21:26.640 --> 0:21:29.600 mad scientists is the best one. I mean, there's they 0:21:29.600 --> 0:21:32.200 all have their charms, is what I'm getting at. Well, 0:21:32.240 --> 0:21:35.280 you know, one possibility that strikes me is you're saying 0:21:35.320 --> 0:21:40.159 that a cyber attack could potentially target a localized facility 0:21:40.280 --> 0:21:45.240 or small subsection of infrastructure, though there's always the possibility 0:21:45.320 --> 0:21:50.399 that by doing so they could trigger chains of larger events. Yes, 0:21:50.600 --> 0:21:53.920 and this is where you have to start taking into 0:21:53.920 --> 0:21:59.800 consideration the specific conditions around that localized area. So is 0:21:59.840 --> 0:22:02.920 this the scenario people have actually imagined, like a sort 0:22:02.960 --> 0:22:06.280 of a cascading series of problems that get bigger and 0:22:06.320 --> 0:22:10.480 bigger with infrastructure failure. It absolutely is. Yeah. There have 0:22:10.600 --> 0:22:17.160 been studies that have looked at specific UH systems that 0:22:17.200 --> 0:22:22.320 have centralized critical nodes, which would be very much similar 0:22:22.359 --> 0:22:25.960 to the United States power grid UH. And if you 0:22:26.000 --> 0:22:29.520 were to target one of those important critical nodes and 0:22:29.600 --> 0:22:32.679 take it down, there's the potential to have this cascading 0:22:32.880 --> 0:22:36.360 domino effect where it would the the the loss of 0:22:36.359 --> 0:22:38.600 that part of the power grid would put such a 0:22:38.640 --> 0:22:41.760 burden on the surrounding ones that they too could fail, 0:22:42.119 --> 0:22:45.119 which could potentially cause others to fail as well. It 0:22:45.200 --> 0:22:49.280 might not be a nationwide outage, but it might be 0:22:49.359 --> 0:22:54.120 much more significant than that one utility going down. Um, 0:22:54.280 --> 0:22:56.600 for that to happen, generally speaking, you have to have 0:22:56.680 --> 0:23:02.520 other elements that are at play. It's it's generally understood 0:23:02.640 --> 0:23:08.080 or believe that if it's an average day that probably 0:23:08.119 --> 0:23:11.639 it would just be the localized utility that was affected. 0:23:12.320 --> 0:23:14.679 But if other issues, like if it was at a 0:23:14.800 --> 0:23:21.199 peak demand when other neighboring utilities were working overtime to 0:23:21.440 --> 0:23:25.000 supply power, because just because the way that particular day 0:23:25.040 --> 0:23:28.600 is unfolding, then you might have a different situation on 0:23:28.640 --> 0:23:30.800 your hands. I have to imagine somebody has tried to 0:23:30.960 --> 0:23:34.359 simulate this. There's been a lot of interesting simulations that 0:23:34.440 --> 0:23:37.040