1 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 2 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:11,080 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb. Today is Saturday, so it's vault time. 3 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 1: This episode originally published six nineteen, twenty twenty five. It 4 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: is an interview that I conducted with the author Tom 5 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: Lathan about the book Lost Wonders Ten Tales of Extinction 6 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 1: from the twenty first Century. Really engaging read, and I've 7 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: thought a really engaging conversation here, so I hope you 8 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 1: enjoy it. Let's jump right. 9 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 2: In Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind, production of iHeartRadio. 10 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 1: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 11 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb, and in today's episode, I'm going 12 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: to be chatting with Tom Lathan, author of the new 13 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: book Lost Wonders, Ten Tales of Extinction from the twenty 14 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 1: first Century. It's out June tenth. Without further ado, let's 15 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 1: jump right into the interview. Hi Tom, Welcome to the show. 16 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 3: Hi there, Rov, Thanks so much for having me. 17 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: The new book is Lost Wonders, Ten Tales of Extinction 18 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 1: from the twenty first Century, publishing June tenth here in 19 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 1: the States, came out earlier, what in November in the UK? Right, 20 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:27,040 Speaker 1: that's right, Yes, it tackles the sixth mass extinction event 21 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 1: that we're all living in by chronicling ten different recently 22 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 1: extinct species. You know, we've all read or heard about 23 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 1: the ongoing Holo scene extinction. But do you find that 24 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 1: people have a difficult time truly grasping what's happening or 25 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 1: the scale of what's happening. 26 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:44,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think it is. It is a difficult 27 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:46,399 Speaker 3: thing to grasp, you know, even for people who are 28 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 3: following this and who care about this. It is kind 29 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 3: of crazy, I think, you know, mainly because of the 30 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 3: timescale that it's happening on the reason why I really 31 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 3: wanted to write this book, which is actually eleven species, 32 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 3: it's ten stories a species. Two of those species, their 33 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 3: story is so so similar, so intertwined. The two birds 34 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:11,640 Speaker 3: are mistaken for one another. Even so, it made sense 35 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 3: to tell those in one story, as it were in 36 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 3: one chapter. But really, the thing that unites the entire 37 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 3: book is that these are species that have gone extinct 38 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 3: in the twenty first century. The reason why I wanted 39 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:27,959 Speaker 3: to write about those species in particular, it's because I 40 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 3: really wanted to get into the idea that extinction is 41 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:34,519 Speaker 3: unfolding all around us. And that when we typically think 42 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:38,359 Speaker 3: of extinction, it can be this far flung thing from 43 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 3: the past. You know, virtually everyone's first encounter with the 44 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 3: word will be in the context of dinosaurs. You know, 45 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:46,359 Speaker 3: I was a dinosaur kid. I was obsessed with Jurassic Park. 46 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 3: That was, yeah, we look like we're probably the similar age, 47 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:54,080 Speaker 3: So you probably had your Jurassic Park phase. But absolutely 48 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:57,800 Speaker 3: either that or the Dodo, And these are things from 49 00:02:57,800 --> 00:02:59,919 Speaker 3: the distant past. And I think that we all make 50 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:05,079 Speaker 3: an unconscious association there with the word extinction and the past, 51 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 3: but it's obviously it's unfolding all around us. And I 52 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 3: actually came to the book, came to the idea of 53 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:16,519 Speaker 3: writing the book when I learned that one of these species, 54 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 3: the Christmas isne In Pippastrell, had actually gone extinct on 55 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:22,920 Speaker 3: my twenty third birthday. And when I learned that fact, 56 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 3: and I realized that I could remember, you know, what 57 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:27,399 Speaker 3: I'd been doing that day, I could remember who I'd 58 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 3: been with, you know, I well, most probably can't really 59 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 3: remember the evening, but I remember a lot of the day, 60 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 3: and I could look back through emails and texts, social 61 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 3: media and really kind of get a picture of what 62 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 3: my world was like on the day that as species 63 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 3: went extinct, it was just a kind of mind blowing 64 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 3: realization and it kind of got me thinking about what 65 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 3: else had gone extinct, you know, within my lifetime, within 66 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 3: the lifetimes of most people who read the book. So 67 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 3: that's what really kind of drove me. 68 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, so you're kind of making something that's kind of 69 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 1: invisible to many visible and real in a way. 70 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I think it's understandable that, you know, 71 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 3: we don't necessarily as a species, we don't really necessarily 72 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 3: think about extinction that much, I would say, and it 73 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 3: can be quite a dour subject, and there's very often 74 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 3: you know, we're we're we are anthropercentric. We're obsessed with 75 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:24,919 Speaker 3: our own stories and our own our own species. So 76 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 3: you know, an obscure back going extinct or a tiny 77 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 3: snail going extinct somewhere in the world isn't necessarily going 78 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:34,280 Speaker 3: to kind of grab everyone's attention. But I think it's 79 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:38,040 Speaker 3: really important that we know what's going on, and you know, 80 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 3: it probably won't surprise anyone to hear that in all 81 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 3: of these stories, we're we're the cause either in the 82 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 3: here and now or we set off the chain of 83 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:50,600 Speaker 3: events that have led to these extinctions. 84 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 1: Now, I don't want to give potential readers the wrong idea, though, 85 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: because each chapter of your of your book is I 86 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 1: guess in a very real sense of tragedy. But there 87 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:04,720 Speaker 1: Vide's chapter is also about like the wonders and improbabilities 88 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:08,920 Speaker 1: surrounding these various species. So I definitely want to get 89 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:13,279 Speaker 1: into some questions about those wonders and improbabilities as we 90 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:16,599 Speaker 1: look at maybe a few examples. But how did you 91 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: how did you end up finalizing a list for the book? 92 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: Where did you? I mean, obviously you had you had 93 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 1: the one in mind that corresponded with your twenty third birthday, 94 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 1: But how about the rest of them? How this come together? 95 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:32,680 Speaker 3: Yeah? So, really, when I started the project, or actually 96 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 3: before I go into that, I think I echo what 97 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 3: you said. I think you're right, you know, extinction. I 98 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:40,839 Speaker 3: think sometimes it's one of those issues that people might 99 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:43,920 Speaker 3: not want to think about because, you know, it just God, 100 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 3: it is just terrible, isn't it? Something going extinct, especially 101 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 3: something that's millions of years old. It's kind of mind boggling. 102 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:52,480 Speaker 3: But one thing, and actually, when I when I went 103 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 3: into writing the book, it was it was a doubt 104 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:56,839 Speaker 3: I had, like, God, is this is anyone going to 105 00:05:56,839 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 3: want to read this? This is just going to be 106 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 3: so depressing. But as I actually got into the research, 107 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 3: and a big part of that research was actually talking 108 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 3: to the people who were there on the ground. In 109 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:12,360 Speaker 3: some cases they may they discovered these species. In other 110 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:15,599 Speaker 3: cases they'd taken care of the last individual of a 111 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:20,040 Speaker 3: species and kind of dealt with the aftermath of extinction. 112 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:24,279 Speaker 3: I actually really found a lot of grounds for hope 113 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:28,239 Speaker 3: in that because it's really inspiring the lengths that people 114 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 3: go to in conservation. It's a field that is absolutely 115 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 3: jam packed with unsung heroes, people that go above and 116 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 3: beyond the call of duty every single day, who have 117 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:42,720 Speaker 3: their who have their job, and there are just little 118 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 3: things that they do just completely off their own initiative, 119 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 3: just because they know they can make a difference. And 120 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 3: there are even stories of species being saved by people 121 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:54,920 Speaker 3: who who aren't scientists, who are hobbyists. There's an example 122 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 3: in the book of a species of pupfish, which is 123 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:02,719 Speaker 3: a tiny little fish from the American West and also 124 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:06,239 Speaker 3: also in Mexico. There are species spread across the arid areas, 125 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 3: and one particular one of the people that I spoke 126 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 3: to was actually a bus driver from New Jersey who 127 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 3: is a hobbyist. He just loves fish, you know, since 128 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 3: he was a kid, and he's actually become involved in 129 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 3: the efforts to save endangered species. When I spoke to him, 130 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 3: he had a critically endangered species just behind him in 131 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 3: his fish tank, and it's you know, obviously there's no 132 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 3: financial incentive for him. And I just think that the 133 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 3: more that you learn about these stories. Yes, the subjects 134 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 3: of this book have gone extinct, but the people who 135 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 3: tried to save them have had other successes. They've used 136 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 3: the knowledge that they gained from trying to save these species, 137 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 3: which very often is uncharted territory. Some of these extinctions 138 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 3: happened because the scientists simply didn't know how do we 139 00:07:56,400 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 3: help this species. But from these experiences, they've learned what 140 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 3: they need to do to save other species and they've 141 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 3: had success. And I just find that really inspiring. But 142 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 3: sorry to go on to your question. Could you remind 143 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 3: me again of what you are? 144 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 1: Oh, i'd a asked just how you ended up coming 145 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 1: up with a list. 146 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 3: Yes, so, I as a journalist, I've been writing about 147 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 3: nature for a few years and it came out of 148 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 3: quite an organic conversation with my partner who's also a writer, 149 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 3: and I was just I just had this thought. I 150 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 3: just wondered, you know, what's I wonder, what's gone extinct, 151 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 3: you know, in the last you know, in my lifetime essentially. 152 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 3: So I contacted the ice I u c N, which 153 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 3: is the International Union for the Conservation of Nature, which 154 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:43,320 Speaker 3: is the global body that essentially oversees the conservation status 155 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 3: of everything. So they're the they're the people essentially who 156 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 3: give the final word and whether something is endangered, critically endangered, extinct, 157 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 3: extinct in the world and so on. And I just 158 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 3: I just asked them, you know, for a list of 159 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 3: recent extinctions, and they sent me back this enormous, sprawling 160 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 3: spreadsheet full of hundreds I think it was up with 161 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:10,200 Speaker 3: the five hundred extinctions. But thankfully that spreadsheet included a 162 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 3: by date of extinction column, so I filtered by that 163 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:19,079 Speaker 3: and these eleven species are what kind of came out 164 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:21,439 Speaker 3: of that, and I really kind of really that's when 165 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 3: it really kind of struck me. In fact, that's the 166 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 3: moment where I saw the extinction date of the pipistre 167 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 3: being my birthday and made that connection and had that realization. 168 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:31,080 Speaker 1: Well, I want to I'm want to ask about one 169 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 1: that I have to acknowledge that on the surface, this 170 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: one might not seem that exciting. And when I was 171 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:39,560 Speaker 1: reading your book, that was my initial response. I was 172 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:41,680 Speaker 1: kind of like, well this, I don't know how enthralled 173 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 1: I'm going to be by this one. But it ended 174 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 1: up being I think my one of my favorite chapters, 175 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 1: and this is the chapter dealing with the Saint Helena Olive. 176 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit about the island 177 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 1: of Saint Helena and the Saint Helena Olive. I was 178 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 1: not I was vaguely familiar with the island from its 179 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 1: prominence in his but I was not familiar with this 180 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 1: organism at all. 181 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, that is also one of my favorites. Before I 182 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 3: go into that. I think it's interesting. I was thinking 183 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 3: about this this morning. Actually, I think we're all kind 184 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 3: of conditioned to see wildlife in a certain way. 185 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:18,200 Speaker 1: You know. 186 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 3: If I don't know if you guys have I presume 187 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 3: you guys have David Attenborough documentaries. Oh yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, 188 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 3: National Hero, so that you know, I was raised on 189 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 3: his documentaries and I think as wonderful as they are, 190 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:31,960 Speaker 3: they do condition you see the natural world in a 191 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 3: certain way. The focus is very much on charismatic species 192 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 3: or species that have some kind of quirk or fascinating behavior, 193 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 3: and I think that we tend to kind of unconsciously 194 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:47,719 Speaker 3: and buy a sort of value system by which we 195 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 3: judge species on that basis. But actually, what I found 196 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 3: one of the really exciting things about writing a book 197 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 3: like this is that you know the decision of what 198 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 3: goes in this book. It wasn't like I just picked 199 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,560 Speaker 3: eleven species that fascinated me. It was decided for me. 200 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 3: And what that meant was I had to really kind 201 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:09,720 Speaker 3: of approach species that, like you, I wouldn't necessarily think, Oh, 202 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 3: is this tree going to be interesting? Is this snail 203 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 3: gonna kind of interest me personally? And I had to 204 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 3: find other ways of looking at them and find the 205 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 3: fascination and wonder in these species and that tree. The 206 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 3: Saint Helena olive is a particularly fascinating species because it 207 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:27,680 Speaker 3: lived only on a single island in the middle of 208 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 3: the South Atlantic Ocean, and this island, Saint Helena, is 209 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:40,559 Speaker 3: extraordinarily remote. It's nearly two thousand kilometers west of Africa, 210 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 3: slap bang in the middle of the South Atlantic, and 211 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 3: it's so remote that when the International Space Station is 212 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 3: circling overhead, the astronauts on board are actually the closest 213 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 3: neighbors to the residents on Saint Helena. 214 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 1: Oh wow. 215 00:11:56,480 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 3: And remote islands are a very exciting place for biologists 216 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:06,720 Speaker 3: because due to their isolation, species that end up making 217 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 3: it to those islands end up evolving in fascinating ways, 218 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 3: and you end up with these extraordinary ecosystems. And Saint 219 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 3: Nuna is one of those examples. You know, there are 220 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:20,839 Speaker 3: a few species that are capable of making that leap, 221 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 3: you know, crossing thousands of miles of ocean to reach 222 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 3: this tiny island, volcanic island. And what you end up 223 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 3: with in a place like that are things like trees 224 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 3: that have evolved from daisies. You end up with giant earwigs, 225 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 3: You end up with fluorescent wood lice, a real bizarre 226 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 3: kind of hodgepodge. There was a biologist that I spoke 227 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 3: to about the ecosystem who said he described it as 228 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:49,680 Speaker 3: imagine if you just gave evolution another chance, You just 229 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 3: reset evolution on an island and allowed it to kind 230 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:56,560 Speaker 3: of take a different course. This is the kind of 231 00:12:56,559 --> 00:12:58,079 Speaker 3: thing you would end up with, just this kind of 232 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 3: alien ecosystem. So the Saint Helena olive is a species 233 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 3: of hardwood tree, and this family of tree species, they 234 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 3: all originate in Southern Africa, and they've made these extraordinary 235 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 3: journeys and radiated out Southern Africa and ended up in 236 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 3: islands in the Indian Ocean, and one of the places 237 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 3: they ended up was on Saint Helena. And it was 238 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 3: a mystery that really confounded scientists because to get to 239 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:31,079 Speaker 3: somewhere like Saint Helena, if you're a tree, your seeds 240 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 3: need to have a way to navigate thousands of miles 241 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 3: of ocean, and there are potential ways they could do that. 242 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 3: They might some seed pods can float, so they would 243 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 3: float there. The Saint Helena olive seed pods didn't float. 244 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 3: In fact, they were sterilized by saltwater and other ways 245 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 3: seeds might be carried by the wind. They wouldn't do that. 246 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 3: They were quite large capsules. And the other way that 247 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 3: seeds can disperse is by growing a fruit and being 248 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 3: eaten by birds, same thing that olive couldn't do any 249 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 3: of those things. So the biologists some of whom I 250 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 3: spoke to you for the book. They eventually deduced that 251 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 3: the way this species had to have ended up on 252 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 3: this remote island was by a bizarre chain of coincidences, 253 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 3: wherein an albatross or a similar seafaring bird must have 254 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 3: landed somewhere in southern Africa and picked up a seed 255 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 3: in its feathers or maybe in some mud coating its foot, 256 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 3: and then that albatross would have ranged out over the 257 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 3: ocean and eventually ended up at Saint Helena, and just 258 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 3: by chance, this seed had dropped dropped from the feathers 259 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 3: of this albatross, found its way into the soil and 260 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 3: the story of that species on the island began, which 261 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 3: is extraordinary. It's twelve million years old, and it's so 262 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 3: genetically unique that a genus had to be created for 263 00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:00,680 Speaker 3: the species. So the genesis the classification that sits above species. 264 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 3: And when you look away from the charismatic species and 265 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 3: species that are more often kind of celebrated and featured 266 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 3: in nature documentaries, you have to kind of look at 267 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 3: species in a different way, and I think you find 268 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 3: incredible stories when you start to look at the natural 269 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 3: world in a different way and you can find that 270 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 3: they're everywhere. 271 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's I just love this idea that it's almost 272 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 1: like this plant was not supposed to be there. It's 273 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 1: just such an incredible string of events that we can 274 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 1: kind of speculate on that landed it there. And I 275 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 1: love the quote that you share about how rare events 276 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 1: happen over geological time. So yeah, it's unlikely, but given 277 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 1: enough time, things like this do occur in this is 278 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 1: the result. 279 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like, what are the chances. I mean, you know, 280 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 3: it's already just a seed being swept up in the 281 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 3: feathers of an albatross is already you know, it seems 282 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 3: quite an unlikely scenario, but then for it to have 283 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 3: dropped out just at the right place, it's kind of insane. 284 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 3: And that quote that you just mentioned, that was Mike Faye, 285 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 3: who was a geneticist from Q Gardens in the UK, 286 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 3: and Q Gardens did a lot of work to try 287 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 3: and conserve this species. He is, he was, he was 288 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 3: actually he led the attempt to propagate the species in 289 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 3: the end. But yeah, that was an incredible insight from him. 290 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 3: You know, he said, he said to me that you know, 291 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 3: there were twelve million years for this to happen, and 292 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 3: it only had to happen once. 293 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 1: But of course another organism eventually came to the island, 294 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 1: and that would be us, right, This one was sheltered 295 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 1: for quite a while, right. 296 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that's one of the it's a double 297 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 3: edged sword. 298 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 1: You know. 299 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 3: Isolation creates a fascinating breeding ground for evolution, for interesting 300 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 3: species to evolve and adapt, But by the same token, 301 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 3: when you have a species like humans. In the book, 302 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 3: I talk about how Saint Helena was almost like a castle. 303 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 3: It was fortified against the outside world. You know, there 304 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 3: were so few organisms who could actually make that trip 305 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:09,680 Speaker 3: that the sea kind of acted almost as a moat. 306 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 3: And the arrival of humans in fifteen oh six was 307 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:18,160 Speaker 3: essentially like lowering the drawbridge. Enabled things like goats, cats, 308 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 3: all kinds of invasive species of plant. Rats are obviously 309 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:28,680 Speaker 3: a huge problem pretty much everywhere they're introduced, and that's 310 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:32,119 Speaker 3: what happened on Saint Helena. And it was an island 311 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 3: that in history after it was discovered, it was compared 312 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 3: by many to Eden. It was this verdant spot in 313 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:42,679 Speaker 3: the middle of the ocean that was really kind of 314 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 3: life sustaining for sailors who at that point in time 315 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 3: had to journey all the way around Africa, around the 316 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:54,479 Speaker 3: bottom of Africa in order to actsos Asia in India. 317 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 3: So it was a really big problem, you know, fighting 318 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:01,879 Speaker 3: off things like scurvy, restocking with water, and Saint Helena 319 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 3: was just this kind of oasis in the middle of 320 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:06,479 Speaker 3: the ocean. But you know, a few years later it 321 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 3: was decimated. 322 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 1: In what led did this decimation, so, I mean. 323 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:15,680 Speaker 3: One thing was the introduction of invasive species. Another thing 324 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:19,880 Speaker 3: was habitat destruction. So once the island was settled by 325 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:24,200 Speaker 3: the English East India Company, homes had to be built. 326 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 3: Enslaved people were brought to the island in order to 327 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:31,400 Speaker 3: create some kind of economic purpose for the island. That's 328 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:34,120 Speaker 3: how it was viewed as the English East India Company 329 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 3: at the time described places like Saint Helena as factories. 330 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 3: That was their ambition for this place. So everything there 331 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 3: was a resource in order to pursue that aim, and 332 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:51,199 Speaker 3: so massive deforestation things like goats were a particular problem, 333 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:54,679 Speaker 3: eating native vegetation and once you lose that vegetation, you 334 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:58,359 Speaker 3: then get soil erosion. And there are these crazy reports 335 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 3: of the soiler Osian being so bad that the sea 336 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 3: turned black around the island, and once you get into 337 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:07,880 Speaker 3: that state, there's very few things that then can then 338 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 3: kind of grow back and get a foothold in the 339 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:15,639 Speaker 3: soil which has essentially been completely transformed. And in Saint Helena, 340 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 3: all of these threats kind of conspired and the landscape 341 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:23,920 Speaker 3: was transformed and native species shrank further and further back 342 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 3: to the center of the island, which is where the 343 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 3: last Saint Helena olive was found in the nineteen seventies. 344 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:34,199 Speaker 1: And you read about that. Now we just have an 345 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:37,399 Speaker 1: empty part, right, it's labeled as St. Helena. 346 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:41,400 Speaker 3: Yes, So in Q Garden's Temperate House, which is this fantastic, 347 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 3: incredible decadent Victorian glasshouse in London and Q there is 348 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 3: you know, species from all over the world there, and 349 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:53,159 Speaker 3: then in one corner there's just this empty terra cotta pot, 350 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 3: which is an extraordinary kind of symbol of what could 351 00:19:58,560 --> 00:19:58,880 Speaker 3: have been. 352 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:12,480 Speaker 1: Now, you mentioned goats and the destructive powers of goats 353 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:16,200 Speaker 1: when they're introduced to places like this, they factor into 354 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:19,399 Speaker 1: at least one of the other extinction stories that you share, 355 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:22,440 Speaker 1: and that is the Pinta Island tortoise of the Galapagos islands. 356 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 1: This is another far flung island dwelling species, right. 357 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:30,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, so a lot of these species were island 358 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 3: dwelling species. For the reasons we discussed the pint Island tortoise. 359 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:41,560 Speaker 3: It's yeah. The goats that came to Pintr Island were 360 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 3: introduced by fishermen, and there were three of them deposited 361 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 3: in the nineteen fifties, and that population swelled two thousands 362 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 3: in fact. You know, I actually don't off the top 363 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:56,679 Speaker 3: of my head, I can't remember the exact number, but 364 00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 3: they basically, you know, the goats were farmer or efficient 365 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 3: if you imagine a tortoise versus a goat in terms 366 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:07,360 Speaker 3: of grazing and things like that, the torses really were 367 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 3: no match. You know, the Galapagos, because of its isolation, 368 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 3: is a place that, you know, there were never things 369 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 3: like goats there. There were never those kind of specially 370 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:19,920 Speaker 3: adapted herbivores. And it's a problem not just for tortoises, 371 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 3: but also the vegetation that tortoises feed on, because if 372 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 3: you don't have herbivores, plants don't learn to adapt to 373 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 3: repel herbivores. So things like thorns, certain kinds of chemical 374 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 3: compounds that all kinds of adaptations that might make native 375 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:41,159 Speaker 3: vegetation resilient to goats. It just it doesn't have that 376 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:44,399 Speaker 3: vegetation doesn't have time to adapt when you suddenly release 377 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:46,440 Speaker 3: something like a goat on the island. 378 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 1: Now, with the Galapagos tortoises in general, I feel like 379 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 1: these are some amazing creatures that we can They are 380 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 1: often featured in documentaries, the sort of Attenborough documentaries that 381 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 1: we've been discussing, and the sort of documentaries that very 382 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:04,159 Speaker 1: much were inspired by that kind of content, which is great, 383 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 1: but we can almost kind of grow numb to them. 384 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 1: I don't know if you've found this to be the 385 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:13,159 Speaker 1: case as well. Like we see the Glapa tortoises, maybe 386 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:16,119 Speaker 1: if we're luckly we get to see one in the zoo, 387 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,239 Speaker 1: or if not, a Galapagos tortoise and maybe an al 388 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:22,680 Speaker 1: dabra tortoise that is in some way similar. But when 389 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:25,440 Speaker 1: you really observe them like they are just so fabulously 390 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 1: weird and wonderful, right they are? 391 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's key. I mean, I think appreciating 392 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 3: nature is it's always about looking a little closer. Because 393 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:37,640 Speaker 3: I think you're right with something like a giant tortoise. 394 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:40,199 Speaker 3: You know, we've we've seen that. We've all seen that 395 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 3: many times. We we kind of I think we think 396 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:48,439 Speaker 3: we always think we understand the things we've seen many times, 397 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:50,720 Speaker 3: so you know, our brain knows how to categorize that, 398 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:54,199 Speaker 3: so we can kind of just move on. But you know, 399 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 3: like any species, they are really fascinating that. In the 400 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,680 Speaker 3: case of the giant torsises of the glass, I mean, 401 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,400 Speaker 3: what fascinated me the most was how they got there, 402 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,879 Speaker 3: which similar to the same thing not olive. It is another 403 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 3: incredible dispersal story. So something like a tortoise, something that 404 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 3: large and cumbersome and slow traversing an ocean is just 405 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:24,359 Speaker 3: as unbelievable as a tiny seed. What they discovered is 406 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:28,680 Speaker 3: that the tortoises or their ancestors must have been washed 407 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,720 Speaker 3: out to sea from South America, which is where their 408 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:36,160 Speaker 3: most recent ancestor lived, and the tortoises would have had 409 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 3: to have survived for god knows how long just on 410 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:44,199 Speaker 3: the ocean with no food. And when this theory was 411 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 3: first kind of discussed in the early twentieth century, it 412 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 3: was actually put to the test, and so you know, 413 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 3: researchers would would take capture giant tortoises, take them into 414 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 3: the ocean, and just drop them into the sea. And 415 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,640 Speaker 3: what they would see is that the tortoises were quite 416 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:05,160 Speaker 3: good at swimming, They could float quite easily, they could 417 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 3: keep their heads above water. And gradually, through genetic analysis, 418 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:15,720 Speaker 3: scientists were able to map how the dispersal had taken place, 419 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 3: first from South America to one Galapagos island and then 420 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 3: later to another. So there's just this when you kind 421 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:25,399 Speaker 3: of accelerate time and think of it like a time lapse, 422 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,639 Speaker 3: that's just this, this series of odyssees going from island 423 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:32,359 Speaker 3: to island from the continent, and these tortoises arriving on 424 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:37,160 Speaker 3: new islands, establishing new species, growing slightly differently into the 425 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 3: into the different species of Galapagos strikeing tortois. It's incredible, 426 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,479 Speaker 3: but it's it's it's kind of a less obvious thing. 427 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 3: I think it's easy to just be distracted by the 428 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 3: size of these creatures and for that to be what 429 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 3: we associate with them. But then when you learn about 430 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 3: their journeys, it's it's really it's fascinating on a different level. 431 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 1: Now, the story of the Pinta Island Glapagos tortoises also 432 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 1: interest in that it is also a story of rediscovery. 433 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 1: Could you tell us a little bit about this Some 434 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:09,679 Speaker 1: fox may have probably heard parts of this tale before. 435 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 1: Tell us about Lonesome George. 436 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:17,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, so in nineteen seventy two. Well, Lonesome George. A 437 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:19,479 Speaker 3: lot of people will be familiar with that name, because 438 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,679 Speaker 3: you know, he was he was a celebrity animal. You know, 439 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:28,440 Speaker 3: he was world famous. He had hundreds of thousands of people, 440 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 3: you know, coming to the Galapagos visiting him in his enclosure. 441 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 3: His species, the Pinter Island torsters, which is the species 442 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 3: I write about in Lost Wonders, was believed to be 443 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,360 Speaker 3: extinct from the beginning of the twentieth centuries. I think 444 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:45,399 Speaker 3: it was nineteen oh six the California Academy of Sciences 445 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 3: went to Pinter Island and collected what was ended up 446 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:55,199 Speaker 3: being the last known female of the species. And so 447 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 3: for seventy odd years, you know, that was thought to 448 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 3: be the end of that species, until one day a 449 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:06,160 Speaker 3: Hungarian American malacologist and his wife were on holiday. They 450 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 3: were on Pinter Island looking at snails, and suddenly they 451 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 3: looked up and saw this giant tortoise, and they didn't 452 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 3: know what they'd seen at the time, but later when 453 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 3: they spoke two other people who were working in the archipelago, 454 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,640 Speaker 3: it soon became clear that this was the Pinter Island tortoise. 455 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,120 Speaker 3: You know, this is a species that everyone had thought 456 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:31,159 Speaker 3: disappeared and that ended up that precipitated a search, and 457 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 3: eventually they found and captured George and took him to 458 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:39,120 Speaker 3: a captive breeding center, hoping that they would be able 459 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,639 Speaker 3: to save this species by finding a female. And he 460 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:48,440 Speaker 3: ended up staying there for four decades and eventually died 461 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,359 Speaker 3: in twenty twelve. After many many searches, there were no 462 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 3: females found. Attempts to have him mate with females of 463 00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 3: closely related species to no avail. But the fascinating thing 464 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,160 Speaker 3: about this story, I mean, there's so many twists and turns, 465 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,800 Speaker 3: but the biologists I spoke to one of the biologists 466 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,680 Speaker 3: I spoke to for this about this species, James Gibbs, 467 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:17,399 Speaker 3: he told me this fascinating story that he and some 468 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:21,200 Speaker 3: of his colleagues at the Galapagos Conservancy. They a few 469 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 3: years ago they went on a trip to a remote 470 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:28,200 Speaker 3: island and they discovered that there were hundreds of Galapagos 471 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 3: trying tortoises of different species living on the side of 472 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:35,359 Speaker 3: this volcano on this incredibly remote island, And eventually they 473 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:39,400 Speaker 3: kind of worked out why this had happened, and their 474 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:44,160 Speaker 3: theory is that whalers who used to use the Galapagos 475 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:47,359 Speaker 3: Islands as basically a meat lader, so whalers out in 476 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,560 Speaker 3: the Pacific they would come to the Galapagos captures horses 477 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,399 Speaker 3: because you know, there were a good food source you 478 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 3: could keep alive on a boat for weeks, and there 479 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,120 Speaker 3: were a big part for the decimation of those species. 480 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 3: But it's thought that they used to gather at this 481 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,960 Speaker 3: spot on the side of this remote island, and at 482 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,159 Speaker 3: some point they must have thrown over overboard some tortoises, 483 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,679 Speaker 3: or they may have escaped, but you ended up with 484 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:16,239 Speaker 3: this isolated population of these different species, and somewhere in 485 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 3: there must have been Pinter Island tortoises, or at least one, 486 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,480 Speaker 3: because James Gibbs and his colleagues found a few years 487 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:26,600 Speaker 3: ago a hybrid tortoise whose mother or father must have 488 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,679 Speaker 3: been a Pinter Island tortoise, which is a fascinating prospect. 489 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 3: They haven't found a parent but it suggests that that 490 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,240 Speaker 3: there is or recently was, you know, a living Pinter 491 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 3: Island tortoise. So this is after George's death, after the 492 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 3: species had yet again been declared extinct, and it's still 493 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 3: a possibility. So that's a really interesting, interesting story, and 494 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 3: you know, there is some small hope there. That same 495 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 3: expedition did find another tortoise that was actually an individual 496 00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:00,239 Speaker 3: from a species that was also believed extinct, so they 497 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 3: reversed another giant tortoise extinction there. 498 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 1: Now, how rare are rediscoveries of previously believed extinct species. 499 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 3: I can't give you any figures off the top of 500 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 3: my head, but it happens more often than you think. 501 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 3: You know, there there are known kind of it depends 502 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,240 Speaker 3: on the species. I mean, some species are fairly easy 503 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:24,520 Speaker 3: to monitor. Other species, you know, maybe due to their size, 504 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 3: due to where they live, are you know, close to impossible. 505 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 3: It really does depend. But I think sometimes, you know, 506 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:36,760 Speaker 3: one of the reasons why there's a little bit of 507 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:41,960 Speaker 3: a disconnect between what biologists will say about the species 508 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:46,200 Speaker 3: they study in terms of their their their conservation status 509 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 3: and what the i U c N will say. So 510 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:52,040 Speaker 3: sometimes scientists will come out and say this species, we 511 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 3: believe it's extinct, We've we've done this extensive search for it, 512 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 3: and we can't find it. No one's seen it for 513 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 3: a decade. But the u c and will kind of 514 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:04,520 Speaker 3: hold fire because there is always that possibility that someone 515 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 3: will find a remote population or that this species is 516 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,480 Speaker 3: especially discreete. So there's very often a kind of like that, 517 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 3: a lagging effect where species aren't actually declared extinct until 518 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,440 Speaker 3: we can kind of know with certitude. But it does happen. Yeah, 519 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 3: species are rediscovered. 520 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:21,479 Speaker 2: Now. 521 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:23,960 Speaker 1: I'm not going to ask you about every organism that 522 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 1: you govern in the book, obviously, but that I do 523 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 1: want to ask you about one more location and associated organisms, 524 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 1: and that would be the two organisms that you profile 525 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: from Christmas Island. This is a place that I think 526 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:41,440 Speaker 1: some of our listeners definitely remember from either episodes they 527 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 1: might have listened to or shows they might have watched 528 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 1: about the Christmas Island crabs. But your selections here, of 529 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 1: course not crabs, remind us a bit about Christmas Island 530 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 1: and what makes its ecosystem so special. 531 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, so Christmas Island is another one of those isolated 532 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 3: islands on which in species just really thrive but it 533 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:08,600 Speaker 3: isn't geographically strictly geographically isolated so much as the ocean 534 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 3: that surrounds it is incredibly deep, So in some places 535 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 3: it's five kilometers deep. You can you can fit Mount 536 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 3: Kilimanjaro in there. It's also surrounded by strong ocean currents. 537 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 3: And the place where it sits in the world is 538 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 3: quite fascinating. It's it sits on what's called the Wallace line, 539 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 3: which is the border between two biogeographical realms, and a 540 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 3: biogeographical realm is basically it's the border between two places 541 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:43,360 Speaker 3: where radically different species and organisms will live. So the 542 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 3: Wallace line separates to its west you've got Southeast Asia, 543 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:52,320 Speaker 3: You've got things like monkeys, all sorts of species that 544 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,760 Speaker 3: live there. And to its east you've got Australia and 545 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 3: you've got you know, the incredible mussupials and things like that. 546 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 3: And it's separated by this this invisible divide, invisible to 547 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,920 Speaker 3: us anyway. And so Christmas Island is a hodgepodge of 548 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 3: those two biogeographical realms. And the two species that I 549 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 3: wrote about in Lost Wonders from Christmas Island they're an 550 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 3: example of that because one of them is from the 551 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 3: east of the line, and one of them is from 552 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 3: the west. But Christmas Island itself. Another reason why it's 553 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 3: such a fascinating place is that it wasn't settled for 554 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:27,040 Speaker 3: a long time. You know, it's quite unique. It was sighted, 555 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 3: it was sited on maps, it was cited by navigators, 556 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 3: but no one really thought there was much point in 557 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 3: taking ownership of Christmas Island. It was a rock covered 558 00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:42,720 Speaker 3: in rainforest in the Indian Ocean. It was surrounded by 559 00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 3: impenetrable cliffs, very few places to land, so no one 560 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 3: really bothered until the end of the nineteenth century when 561 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,640 Speaker 3: phosphorus was discovered, sorry, phosphatic rock was discovered on the 562 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 3: ocean floor, and it was determined that Christmas Island would 563 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:03,360 Speaker 3: be a source of phosphatic rock used to make fertilizer, 564 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 3: which was obviously a huge economic incentive to settle there 565 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 3: and colonize it, which is what happened. And as usual, 566 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:16,760 Speaker 3: that brought with it a raft of invasive species habitat destruction, 567 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:22,120 Speaker 3: which really kind of it had the effect you would expect. 568 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:24,840 Speaker 3: The two species that I write about, one of which 569 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:27,479 Speaker 3: is the one of which is the prune sized bat, 570 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 3: the Christmas sign and pipistrell that went extinct on my birthday. 571 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 3: That was, by all accounts of very cute little organism. 572 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 3: It had a tiny quiff, it was the size of 573 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:40,960 Speaker 3: a prune, so it could fit comfortably in your hand. 574 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 3: And the forest skink was a metallic brown skink that 575 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 3: was extremely common. Both these species were extremely common, you know. 576 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 3: Researchers described, you know, seeing as many as eighty of 577 00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 3: the forest skink basking in the sun on a single log, 578 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,720 Speaker 3: so it really was everywhere. And the pipistrell similarly, I 579 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:07,600 Speaker 3: think the first the first population count estimated between five 580 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:11,800 Speaker 3: and ten thousand on quite a small island, and it 581 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 3: was so common that you would islanders would find them 582 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,719 Speaker 3: fluttering around inside their homes, you know, hunting insects. There 583 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:21,319 Speaker 3: were accounts of them tumbling into people's people's dinner, you know, 584 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:23,520 Speaker 3: eating soup and suddenly a back crush lands in your 585 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 3: suit bowl. So they really were everywhere. And then in 586 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:31,440 Speaker 3: the late eighties suddenly people noticed that they were starting 587 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 3: to disappear. And essentially what happened is these species disappeared 588 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,040 Speaker 3: in the east to west pattern, so from the east 589 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:41,879 Speaker 3: of the islands of the west they gradually faded out, 590 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:46,319 Speaker 3: and at the same time it was realized that a 591 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:50,280 Speaker 3: particularly dangerous and invasive species of snake, the wolf snake, 592 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:53,480 Speaker 3: had been introduced, which is believed to be the primary 593 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:59,200 Speaker 3: cause of both extinctions by the majority of scientists. There 594 00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:04,239 Speaker 3: were other things like giant centerpedes, cats, wraps, yellow crazy ants, 595 00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:07,600 Speaker 3: which are another you know, they're their own fascinating phenomenon, 596 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:10,400 Speaker 3: but really it's the introduction of the wolf snake. And 597 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:14,000 Speaker 3: you see this correlations, fascinating correlation with the retreat of 598 00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:17,840 Speaker 3: these two species and the advance of this invasive species. 599 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,840 Speaker 1: The wolf snake. This was an accidental introduction to the 600 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:24,040 Speaker 1: island or was this one of these cases where an 601 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:27,280 Speaker 1: organism was introduced to attempt to solve a particular problem 602 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:27,800 Speaker 1: or anything. 603 00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:30,439 Speaker 3: No, this was an accident and there was a bit 604 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 3: of a problem on Christmas Island. The biosecurity was not 605 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:36,839 Speaker 3: quite there from what I've heard. But this is a 606 00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:40,000 Speaker 3: snake or a few. I don't know how many it 607 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:41,239 Speaker 3: would have been, but it could have been one, or 608 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:44,560 Speaker 3: it could have been several. That basically snuckerboard a cargo 609 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:48,680 Speaker 3: ship and this happens a lot. You know, now that 610 00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:51,560 Speaker 3: we've kind of connected the isolated parts of the world. 611 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,759 Speaker 3: We've we've sort of created a transport network for invasive species, 612 00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:59,000 Speaker 3: and that's why biosecurity is so important. But sometimes it's 613 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:03,360 Speaker 3: not followed or or it's lacking, and on Christmas Island 614 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,040 Speaker 3: it yeah, there were there were species that were introduced 615 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:07,560 Speaker 3: in this manner, and the wolf snakes one of them, 616 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:12,600 Speaker 3: but it was it's a specialized skin hunter, but it's 617 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:17,280 Speaker 3: it's partial to bats and things like that, but it's 618 00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:32,880 Speaker 3: decimated this species with frightening ferocity. There are three species 619 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:35,600 Speaker 3: in this book that lived in Australian territories. So there 620 00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,400 Speaker 3: were these two from Christmas Island, and there was another 621 00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:41,680 Speaker 3: species called the bramble cane melmus, which was a species 622 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:44,560 Speaker 3: of rodent that lived on a sand k in the 623 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:47,960 Speaker 3: Torres Strait, which is which is just north of Australia, 624 00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:53,080 Speaker 3: but it's an Australian territory. And all three of these 625 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:58,160 Speaker 3: species really suffered from governmental neglect. There were opportunities to 626 00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:01,840 Speaker 3: save them that weren't taken. You know, the people that 627 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,719 Speaker 3: I spoke to who worked with all three of these species, 628 00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:08,000 Speaker 3: they in the case of the Christmas Island species, they've 629 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:12,680 Speaker 3: warned the authorities. This species is going extinct. The skink 630 00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:16,240 Speaker 3: is a really horrifying example of that because David James, 631 00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:19,680 Speaker 3: who was a wonderful ecologist who worked on the island 632 00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:22,960 Speaker 3: and was essentially in charge of monitoring basically everything that 633 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:26,360 Speaker 3: lived there. You know, he raised the alarm about this 634 00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:31,000 Speaker 3: species in two thousand and five and was ignored. You know, 635 00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:36,760 Speaker 3: he recommended it be categorized as threatened in Australia's equivalent 636 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,799 Speaker 3: of the Endangered Species List, but he wasn't listened to, 637 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:43,840 Speaker 3: and it was only classified as threatened four months before 638 00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:48,560 Speaker 3: the extinction of the species in twenty fourteen. The reason 639 00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:53,120 Speaker 3: why I think it's important to mention that is what's 640 00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:58,319 Speaker 3: happening right now in America with the attempts to water 641 00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:04,920 Speaker 3: down the Endangered Species Act, the the unleashing potentially of 642 00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:07,880 Speaker 3: the God Squad, I think is the name the small 643 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,520 Speaker 3: body of people who were given the unique power to 644 00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:15,879 Speaker 3: override environmental protections even if it causes an extinction. I think. 645 00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:18,880 Speaker 3: You know, in the in the best of circumstances, you know, 646 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:23,920 Speaker 3: politicians are neglect full of environmental issues. But the situation 647 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:29,360 Speaker 3: in America now is just apocalyptic. Sorry to get sorry 648 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:33,040 Speaker 3: to get depressing, But actually there was something, if you 649 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:35,920 Speaker 3: don't mind, there was I got in touch with someone, 650 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,040 Speaker 3: one of the scientists I spoke to for this book 651 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:40,040 Speaker 3: because I knew I was coming on here and I 652 00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:42,239 Speaker 3: wanted to ask him, you know, if he had any 653 00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:44,960 Speaker 3: thoughts and feelings about the current state of things, you know, 654 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,040 Speaker 3: and I think it's quite important. So I don't know 655 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:48,640 Speaker 3: if you'd mind if I read it out. I was 656 00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:49,200 Speaker 3: quite sure. 657 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:50,560 Speaker 1: Oh, by all means. 658 00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:53,200 Speaker 3: So here's what he said. This is Chris Martin, who 659 00:38:54,200 --> 00:39:01,280 Speaker 3: is an evolutionary biologist who specializes in pupfish. He works 660 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,560 Speaker 3: at UC Berkeley, and this is what he had to 661 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:09,520 Speaker 3: say about this. This government is attempting to strip habitat 662 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:13,399 Speaker 3: protections provided by the Endangered Species Act, among many other 663 00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:16,560 Speaker 3: threats and cuts to the federal agencies that protect and 664 00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:22,000 Speaker 3: can serve our biodiversity, national parks, and natural spaces. The 665 00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:26,440 Speaker 3: Endangered Species Act was signed by Nixon with strong bipartisan support, 666 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:30,080 Speaker 3: and has inspired the world with its successes in bringing 667 00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:33,800 Speaker 3: back so many species from the brink of extinction, including 668 00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:37,560 Speaker 3: the bald eagle, condor and even the Devil's whole pupfish, 669 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:41,480 Speaker 3: which was recently rescued from a catastrophic decline this winter, 670 00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:44,759 Speaker 3: only through a decade long efforts of the US Fish 671 00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:48,520 Speaker 3: and Wildlife Service to establish a refuge population. We must 672 00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:51,560 Speaker 3: fight to protect everyone in our country and all the 673 00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:54,480 Speaker 3: unique species that have made the United States their home 674 00:39:54,640 --> 00:40:00,080 Speaker 3: for millennia. He also mentioned to me, obviously there's a 675 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:04,879 Speaker 3: all a context where scientific institutions and universities are being 676 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:10,759 Speaker 3: stripped of funding and there are layoffs, and it sounds horrendous. 677 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:14,840 Speaker 3: As an outsider, it sounds, you know, absolutely, it's a 678 00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:18,920 Speaker 3: doomsday scenario. But I think it's really important that we 679 00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:23,000 Speaker 3: kind of learn and we understand what happens when when 680 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:26,399 Speaker 3: people stop caring, you know, when governments turn a blind eye, 681 00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:29,000 Speaker 3: or when you know, in the case of the current administration, 682 00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:34,320 Speaker 3: when they seem to be actively advocating by diversity loss 683 00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:38,960 Speaker 3: and things like that. I think Chris is right. I 684 00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:41,839 Speaker 3: think now is the time to fight in whichever way 685 00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:44,520 Speaker 3: anyone can. I'm probably preaching to the choir here. I 686 00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:48,000 Speaker 3: don't know what your listener base is like, but hearing 687 00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:50,399 Speaker 3: all of this from Chris, it really kind of made 688 00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:54,120 Speaker 3: me sort of realize that the bipasssan history of the 689 00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:58,280 Speaker 3: Endangered Species Act and how you know i'd heard that from, 690 00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:01,520 Speaker 3: you know. Researching this book, I've spoken to people who, 691 00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:05,400 Speaker 3: you know, occupied all kinds of positions across the political spectrum, 692 00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:08,840 Speaker 3: but they did believe in the importance of conserving species 693 00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:13,719 Speaker 3: and your podcast being a science podcast. I think, I think, 694 00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:18,560 Speaker 3: regardless of anyone's political affiliations, one thing I think we 695 00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:21,279 Speaker 3: can all realize is that the administration at the moment 696 00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:25,080 Speaker 3: is profoundly unscientific, and regardless of how you feel about 697 00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:29,200 Speaker 3: any other kind of policies, you know, it's just insanity. 698 00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:32,480 Speaker 1: Absolutely. I mean, this is you know, not the first 699 00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:36,680 Speaker 1: guest this year to bring some version of this issue up. 700 00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:41,240 Speaker 1: And yeah, in the past there has been bipartisan support 701 00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:47,839 Speaker 1: to a large degree to help maintain biodiversity. I don't 702 00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:50,640 Speaker 1: think it's something that needs to be a politicized topic, 703 00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:55,120 Speaker 1: and yet here we are. So that's right, you're sharing 704 00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:55,920 Speaker 1: these starts. 705 00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:57,640 Speaker 3: But I do want to add as well, just to 706 00:41:57,640 --> 00:41:59,960 Speaker 3: add a little note of hope, because I know, you know, 707 00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,480 Speaker 3: this must be such a demoralizing situation for many Americans 708 00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:05,920 Speaker 3: to be in. One of the people I spoke to 709 00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:09,719 Speaker 3: you for this book was a fantastic ornithologist, a bird 710 00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:13,360 Speaker 3: ecologist from Brazil, and he talked to me about what 711 00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:17,000 Speaker 3: it was like working under the Bolsonario regime, so, you know, 712 00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:20,400 Speaker 3: they had a right wing government. I think it was 713 00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:22,800 Speaker 3: around the same time as the Trump first Trump term, 714 00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:26,440 Speaker 3: which was actively pursuing the destruction of the Amazon rainforest. 715 00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:30,320 Speaker 3: And he told me, you know, essentially what happened in 716 00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:34,880 Speaker 3: that time was organizations and conservationists learn to turn away 717 00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:37,520 Speaker 3: from the federal government where they could, you know, things 718 00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:41,600 Speaker 3: became a lot more localized. You know, local administrations and 719 00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:44,319 Speaker 3: local organizations would kind of ban together and try and 720 00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:48,239 Speaker 3: solve the problems together, knowing they couldn't they couldn't rely 721 00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:51,799 Speaker 3: on their government. And you know, I know that conservation 722 00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:54,600 Speaker 3: is as I said earlier, it's full of unstung heroes. 723 00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:57,960 Speaker 3: It's full of everyday heroism. So I really do think 724 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:01,560 Speaker 3: that people across the country would be doing their best 725 00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:05,400 Speaker 3: to kind of to save what they can, and I 726 00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:08,680 Speaker 3: think they need our support. So I'd encourage anyone who 727 00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:12,600 Speaker 3: who cares about this or feels depressed or demoralized by 728 00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:15,319 Speaker 3: it to try and get involved however you can. So 729 00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:17,640 Speaker 3: there are very often ways that you can volunteer and 730 00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:20,560 Speaker 3: you can help even small ways. It's more important than 731 00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:21,000 Speaker 3: ever now. 732 00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:24,719 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, Well, we recently talked with Mark Ndinka, who 733 00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:28,560 Speaker 1: runs the Amphibian Foundation here in Atlanta, and that was 734 00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:29,960 Speaker 1: one of the things he brought up is in the 735 00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:34,960 Speaker 1: past they've had to they have leaned on the federal 736 00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:37,839 Speaker 1: agencies for helping some of their research, and a lot 737 00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:41,239 Speaker 1: of that has been going away. And this is just 738 00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:44,279 Speaker 1: one example, you know, a local example for us of 739 00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:47,319 Speaker 1: an organization where people people can now turn and try 740 00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:50,279 Speaker 1: to help support their work if they can't depend on 741 00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:54,000 Speaker 1: funding or assistance from governmental agencies. 742 00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:58,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's important to preserve hope. And I think the 743 00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:03,600 Speaker 3: situation is is incredibly demoralizing, but there are people who 744 00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:05,799 Speaker 3: are working. There are people to do the right who 745 00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:07,399 Speaker 3: are trying to do the right thing, and I think, 746 00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:10,520 Speaker 3: you know where if we can support them where we can, 747 00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:12,200 Speaker 3: I think that's a really good thing. 748 00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:14,319 Speaker 1: Well, Tom, thanks for coming on the show to chat 749 00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:17,440 Speaker 1: with me. The book again is Lost Wonders ten Tales 750 00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:19,719 Speaker 1: of Extinction from the twenty first century. 751 00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:21,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks so much for having me Rob. It's it's 752 00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:24,160 Speaker 3: been a real pleasure and thank you all for listening. 753 00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:30,000 Speaker 1: Thanks once more to Tom for taking time out of 754 00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:32,200 Speaker 1: his day to chat with me. Just a reminder that 755 00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:34,160 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is primarily a science and 756 00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:36,960 Speaker 1: culture podcast, with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays and 757 00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:39,320 Speaker 1: on Fridays. We set aside most serious concerns to just 758 00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:42,839 Speaker 1: talk about a weird film on Weird House Cinema. Thanks 759 00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:45,759 Speaker 1: as always to the excellent JJ Possway for producing the show, 760 00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:47,960 Speaker 1: and if you would like to reach out with any questions, 761 00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:51,400 Speaker 1: comments or suggestions, you can email us at contact at 762 00:44:51,400 --> 00:45:02,040 Speaker 1: stuff to blow your Mind dot com. 763 00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:05,120 Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 764 00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:09,040 Speaker 2: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 765 00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:24,920 Speaker 2: or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows,