WEBVTT - Ep. 104: Turks! 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:12.760 This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless, 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:16.400 severely bug bitten and in my case, underwear listening. Don't 0:00:16.640 --> 0:00:22.279 eat podcast. You can't predict anything presented by first Light. 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:33.680 Go farther, stay longer, All right, Becky Humphries, UM, thanks 0:00:33.720 --> 0:00:37.080 for coming on and talking to us, my pleasure. Can 0:00:37.159 --> 0:00:39.839 you can you in a in a super quick fashion 0:00:40.120 --> 0:00:44.120 or take as long as you want explain to people 0:00:44.280 --> 0:00:49.600 what the National Wild Turkey Federation is? UM? And also 0:00:49.880 --> 0:00:51.680 you know you can also throw in there how you are. 0:00:51.840 --> 0:00:56.440 Is it still fair to say new? I hope? So yeah, 0:00:57.120 --> 0:00:58.880 less than a year or so. I mean I started 0:00:58.880 --> 0:01:01.760 in April at you. Yeah, so I talked about the 0:01:01.840 --> 0:01:04.520 I talked about the n WTF people all the time. UM, 0:01:04.560 --> 0:01:06.280 and people listen to the show. I've heard about it 0:01:06.319 --> 0:01:08.520 a fair bit. But just yeah, give give what sort 0:01:08.520 --> 0:01:11.959 of like your standard breakdown? Okay? Well, the National Wild 0:01:11.959 --> 0:01:16.919 Turkey Federation was formed back in nine. It was formed 0:01:16.920 --> 0:01:20.759 to restore the wild Turkey and has grown to conserve 0:01:20.800 --> 0:01:25.199 our hunting heritage. So we are a nationwide nonprofit conservation 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:30.319 organization with volunteers and chapters in every state. UM, and 0:01:30.400 --> 0:01:33.240 we we worked real hard on making sure there's really 0:01:33.280 --> 0:01:37.240 good active habitat management across the country, and also that 0:01:37.280 --> 0:01:40.240 we are bringing in the next generation a hunter, that 0:01:40.280 --> 0:01:44.440 we're maintaining that continuity in our hunting public and and 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:48.440 growing the hunting sport. So for this last ten years, 0:01:48.480 --> 0:01:50.840 well the last five years, on a ten year initiative, 0:01:50.880 --> 0:01:53.400 we've been working on save the Habitat, Save the Hunt. 0:01:53.960 --> 0:01:57.600 We're we put together some pretty lofty goals of restoring 0:01:57.680 --> 0:02:01.840 and conserving four million acres a habitat, creating a million 0:02:01.880 --> 0:02:04.400 and a half hunters, and opening up a half million 0:02:04.400 --> 0:02:07.800 acres the hunting access, opening up a half million acres 0:02:07.920 --> 0:02:11.200 tony access. So there's not public access now would become 0:02:11.200 --> 0:02:14.960 public access according to the goal. Yep, that's correct. I 0:02:14.960 --> 0:02:17.840 want to get into that. UM. But first back, like, 0:02:19.040 --> 0:02:22.280 are you from Michigan. I am from Michigan, Okay, where well, 0:02:22.360 --> 0:02:25.120 I lived all over the Lower Peninsula UM, spent a 0:02:25.120 --> 0:02:27.359 lot of time in the up also, but might still 0:02:27.400 --> 0:02:30.440 have a home north the Grand Rapids. Yeah. Yeah, I 0:02:30.440 --> 0:02:32.800 was born in Moskeeton County, YEP, so it's just a 0:02:32.800 --> 0:02:36.480 little further north. I went to regular college in in 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:40.239 in in Grand Valley, but lived in Grand Rapids for 0:02:40.240 --> 0:02:42.200 a while yeah, well it's not very far. My home 0:02:42.240 --> 0:02:45.360 is north of Lowell, Michigan, on the Flat River, and 0:02:45.440 --> 0:02:47.320 I still have a home there, and I get back 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:50.160 there on a regular basis, and I have some of 0:02:50.200 --> 0:02:54.000 my kids that still lived there. And you were, I 0:02:54.000 --> 0:02:56.400 think in the years that I was trapesing around Michigan, 0:02:56.400 --> 0:02:59.679 you were involved in Michigan's Department of Natural Resources or 0:02:59.720 --> 0:03:03.160 the the Michigan Fishing Game equivalent, right, I was. I was. 0:03:03.280 --> 0:03:05.720 I had a thirty two year career there. I started 0:03:05.720 --> 0:03:08.680 off as a field biologist, worked my way up was 0:03:08.720 --> 0:03:11.840 Wildlife Division chief and and retired as the director of 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:14.200 both the d n R and um d e Q, 0:03:14.440 --> 0:03:18.000 the environmental regulation as well as the Natural Resources Agency. 0:03:18.320 --> 0:03:22.600 They were coming journey. It was like, when you started 0:03:22.600 --> 0:03:24.320 out as a field biologist, what was the first thing 0:03:24.360 --> 0:03:27.160 you were doing. I was managing waterfall areas. I managed 0:03:27.200 --> 0:03:30.680 hiawassee um Maple River and grassh at Sagna in the 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:33.480 center part of the state. So I was very much 0:03:33.480 --> 0:03:36.760 about active management on those managed wetland areas and grass 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:40.440 at Saginaw was the headwaters um you know, to the 0:03:40.480 --> 0:03:43.960 Saginaw River and also Downlooking Glass into the Grand River 0:03:44.480 --> 0:03:48.200 and So it was um doing grouse management, timber management 0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:51.640 on those lands, writing management plans, working with private landowners, 0:03:51.680 --> 0:03:56.680 setting hunting regulations and UM. I like challenge. So I 0:03:56.760 --> 0:03:59.480 worked at a Grand Rapid size the district supervisor including 0:03:59.560 --> 0:04:02.560 Muski and County for ten years. I had no idea 0:04:02.600 --> 0:04:04.960 how what you were influencing my life? Yeah, there you go. 0:04:06.120 --> 0:04:08.000 And so I was out of Grand Rapids off and 0:04:08.040 --> 0:04:10.320 on for ten years. It kept pulling me into Lansing, 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:12.800 trying to get me to run statewide programs. And I 0:04:12.920 --> 0:04:15.240 kept pushing back out and going out in the field 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:18.200 because I really liked the connection with the landowners and 0:04:18.200 --> 0:04:21.640 in the sporting public out there. UM. And then what 0:04:21.680 --> 0:04:23.640 was the biggest challenge about all that? I mean about 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:26.239 about working at the you know, the state level, because 0:04:26.320 --> 0:04:30.159 we're joking about this last night that you know, you 0:04:30.200 --> 0:04:35.560 hear some you hear somebody like ill informed criticisms all 0:04:35.600 --> 0:04:38.919 the time of of state agencies. In fact, it's like 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:41.320 like growing up in Michigan, the only thing you would 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:46.440 hear about then was like crazy theories and criticism. Oh yeah, 0:04:46.480 --> 0:04:50.800 when I get a NonStop right, oh yeah, the conspiracy theory. 0:04:51.000 --> 0:04:53.520 I mean we had when I started I remember hearing 0:04:53.560 --> 0:04:58.160 people swear they saw green bands unloading coyotes in southern Michigan. 0:04:58.240 --> 0:05:00.480 I mean they would swear up and down we would 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:02.920 drive in at night and unload kaya. That's the kind 0:05:02.920 --> 0:05:05.719 of resemble and you'd be like, no, you guys, you 0:05:05.760 --> 0:05:08.880 know it's it's these animals are adaptable and they're moving 0:05:08.920 --> 0:05:11.880 back in, just like we're seeing changes and having black Bear, 0:05:12.240 --> 0:05:15.000 you know, moved down into southern Michigan and more bobcat 0:05:15.040 --> 0:05:19.400 down there. It's related to habitat change and animals are adaptable. 0:05:19.440 --> 0:05:21.919 They moved back in. But people don't want to hear it, 0:05:22.040 --> 0:05:25.360 you know, they if they haven't seen it, um, they 0:05:25.400 --> 0:05:28.200 suspect that we have helped create it. Sometimes we have. 0:05:28.400 --> 0:05:30.400 I mean the wild turkey is a great example. I 0:05:30.440 --> 0:05:33.880 worked on live trapping wild turkey. And were you dumping 0:05:33.920 --> 0:05:36.000 them out of green vans? No, we weren't jumping them 0:05:36.000 --> 0:05:39.760 out a green vance. Know, they were cardboard boxes. They 0:05:39.760 --> 0:05:42.200 had National Wild Turkey Federation on the side, and we 0:05:42.200 --> 0:05:44.559 did them. Went press, you know, we invited the press 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:48.120 out there, and we invited the public. No. No, in fact, 0:05:48.160 --> 0:05:52.000 we tried real hard not to have it be secret. Um. 0:05:52.040 --> 0:05:55.560 So you know, but you had that, you had everything 0:05:55.600 --> 0:05:58.320 from that to over abundance issues. You know, at the 0:05:58.400 --> 0:06:02.279 time when I was Wildlife Division getting criticism about overabundance, 0:06:02.760 --> 0:06:05.320 where we had again we had deer, you know, throughout 0:06:05.320 --> 0:06:09.240 Diego County. You know, that area tremendous pine plantation, but 0:06:09.320 --> 0:06:11.960 there's not a you know, there's not anything for deer 0:06:11.960 --> 0:06:14.279 to eat, and a lot of that that red pine 0:06:14.279 --> 0:06:17.360 plantation that used to be in Oego County and a 0:06:17.360 --> 0:06:19.600 deer had to pack a lunch and bring it with them. 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:23.159 But with real high deer numbers and with the prevalence 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:25.680 of baiting that was going on there, people could have 0:06:25.760 --> 0:06:29.200 a little ten acre track and a red pine plantation 0:06:29.279 --> 0:06:32.359 and throughout some sugar beets and carrots and and have 0:06:32.440 --> 0:06:35.760 a reasonable chance of seeing some deer. And as we 0:06:36.480 --> 0:06:39.080 had more and more car deer accidents, it was costing 0:06:39.200 --> 0:06:42.479 insurance companies and people with insurance a lot more money. 0:06:42.920 --> 0:06:45.960 We started have disease issues with bovine tuberculosis and the 0:06:46.000 --> 0:06:50.240 deer herd um. We started to bring that population down 0:06:50.279 --> 0:06:52.960 to what we thought was sustainable on the landscape, and 0:06:53.400 --> 0:06:56.279 that was tough for folks, tough that had gotten used 0:06:56.320 --> 0:07:01.640 to really high deer numbers when uh, I don't want 0:07:01.640 --> 0:07:03.760 to I don't want to indulge it, but I just 0:07:03.800 --> 0:07:05.799 want to know. Now obviously brought it up. I'm curious 0:07:05.800 --> 0:07:09.680 about it. People like when people feel that, Okay, someone 0:07:09.840 --> 0:07:13.360 is dumping like predators out, did you ever get like, 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:17.960 what what what the idea is that they're after? Um? Like? 0:07:18.040 --> 0:07:21.920 What the what? Like? What the perceived motivation for it was? No? UM, 0:07:21.960 --> 0:07:24.920 I think I think they just thought was government, you know, 0:07:24.960 --> 0:07:28.760 trying to mess with their life to Yeah, and inconvenience. 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:31.360 They didn't. They clearly didn't like those predators on the 0:07:31.440 --> 0:07:34.880 landscape and they had to blame somebody for it, and 0:07:35.000 --> 0:07:38.080 not just that they would just drift in on their own. Yeah. 0:07:39.280 --> 0:07:43.440 So when you were like when you were with Michigan UM, 0:07:43.480 --> 0:07:46.200 with the Department Natural Resources of Michigan, you were probably 0:07:46.200 --> 0:07:49.280 aware of National Wild Turkey federations because you would have 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:52.040 been through all the turkey. Oh yeah, yeah, I I 0:07:52.080 --> 0:07:55.000 mean I remember Dr James Earl Kinnemer came to Michigan 0:07:55.000 --> 0:07:58.640 to talk to us about UM bringing in wild stock 0:07:58.720 --> 0:08:02.640 from other states. We populations at that time down an 0:08:02.640 --> 0:08:06.080 elegant up in Baldwin, A few birds up in Um 0:08:06.200 --> 0:08:09.680 the Alpina area that came from Pennsylvania game farm stock, 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:13.040 and they were they were a little focused populations. They 0:08:13.040 --> 0:08:15.760 weren't growing. We haunted them, but they you know, they 0:08:15.760 --> 0:08:18.040 weren't doing much, to be honest with you. Those are 0:08:18.040 --> 0:08:20.120 the ones that the Baldwin ones are the ones that 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:24.480 I remember. And it was that you know, you could 0:08:24.520 --> 0:08:27.520 apply for tags. Remember one of my brother like drew 0:08:27.520 --> 0:08:29.280 one of those tags and went up with his body 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:31.520 and they kind of messed around and never got a 0:08:31.520 --> 0:08:36.080 bird brown trou But then all of a sudden, it 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:39.520 was just like I left the state and and moved 0:08:39.520 --> 0:08:41.840 out west. Then all of a sudden was just like 0:08:41.880 --> 0:08:44.240 someone through the light switch man and my dad was 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:48.160 hunting turkeys a mile from our house. And that ever year, 0:08:48.200 --> 0:08:50.240 it seemed to happen just like overnight, it did. It 0:08:50.320 --> 0:08:53.360 happened very quickly. Um. We brought in birds from Iowa 0:08:53.559 --> 0:08:56.920 and UM a few other states. We released those in 0:08:57.000 --> 0:09:00.400 some areas that we thought had really good turkey habitat 0:09:00.480 --> 0:09:03.320 in it. They took off. They just went gang busters. 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:05.200 And then we would go in and trap some of 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:09.000 those birds after they were established and relocate them to 0:09:09.040 --> 0:09:12.880 other areas and then continue to do that across um 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:16.520 historical turkey range in Michigan and then started opening it 0:09:16.600 --> 0:09:18.720 up to turkey hunting. And then we continue to do 0:09:18.800 --> 0:09:21.520 trap and transfer as we opened it up to hunting, 0:09:21.800 --> 0:09:24.640 to get people used to the concept that you don't 0:09:24.760 --> 0:09:26.960 you know, you can hunt, especially you can hunt in 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:31.160 the spring where you're hunting those males and um, and 0:09:31.200 --> 0:09:37.000 still restore that population into remaining habitat simultaneous. How do 0:09:37.040 --> 0:09:39.760 you get like, when you say identified turkey habitat, how 0:09:39.800 --> 0:09:42.440 do you guys define turkey habitat? Well, you know, in 0:09:42.440 --> 0:09:46.720 the early days, I remember, UM, we thought you needed 0:09:46.760 --> 0:09:50.240 to have much more extensive blocks of wooded habitat because 0:09:50.240 --> 0:09:53.280 in Michigan, a lot of the presettlement observations, you know, 0:09:53.320 --> 0:09:56.200 when as early settlers came in and talked about the 0:09:56.320 --> 0:10:00.240 abundant turkey populations, it was in the big woods. And 0:10:00.280 --> 0:10:03.280 I think that really those observations came because in that 0:10:03.520 --> 0:10:07.360 mixed agricultural land of southern Michigan, people had hunted him out, 0:10:07.640 --> 0:10:10.160 you know, UM or poached him out or whatever was 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:13.040 going on at the time. They weren't regulated and so 0:10:13.200 --> 0:10:16.360 because of that, people thought they probably took much more 0:10:16.360 --> 0:10:20.360 extensive wooded habitat than they than they do take. And 0:10:20.440 --> 0:10:22.360 so when we first started on it, we asked that 0:10:22.440 --> 0:10:25.920 same question to Dr James Earl Kennemer, and his comment was, 0:10:26.679 --> 0:10:29.360 you know, this looks like habitat where we find birds 0:10:29.360 --> 0:10:32.120 in the southern United States. Put them out here and 0:10:32.200 --> 0:10:34.760 try it. And we found that they were highly adaptable. 0:10:35.080 --> 0:10:37.160 But they did better in some of those areas where 0:10:37.160 --> 0:10:41.040 you had open glades and you had not real thick 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:44.199 um young forests. They would use some of the habitat 0:10:44.280 --> 0:10:47.040 at times, but where we could open it up, and 0:10:47.360 --> 0:10:49.600 southern Michigan used to have what we call a lot 0:10:49.600 --> 0:10:52.480 of oaks savannah. It's much like pine savannah that you 0:10:52.520 --> 0:10:55.200 find in the South, where it was a low stocking 0:10:55.320 --> 0:10:58.200 of oaks and then a lot of grasses and forbes 0:10:58.240 --> 0:11:00.840 on the forest floor. Now on a lot of like 0:11:00.920 --> 0:11:04.880 early successional shrubs and heavy cover where a bird can't 0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:07.280 see but or it gets enough daylight, get a lot 0:11:07.280 --> 0:11:09.640 of insect life, You get a lot of variety in there. 0:11:09.720 --> 0:11:12.400 You get those early forbes that come up in the springtime. 0:11:12.960 --> 0:11:16.640 They love that. And so as we got birds and 0:11:16.760 --> 0:11:19.520 learn more about what they were using, we actually went 0:11:19.640 --> 0:11:22.720 into some of the game areas that were really heavily 0:11:22.800 --> 0:11:28.880 stocked forest management areas and heavily um real dense forests. 0:11:29.520 --> 0:11:31.960 So by stock I mean just a stocking of trees 0:11:32.720 --> 0:11:35.400 UM and we opened some of those up, we thinned 0:11:35.440 --> 0:11:38.000 them out. We put fire on that landscape where in 0:11:38.040 --> 0:11:41.440 the spring, usually during the beginning of the growing season, 0:11:41.480 --> 0:11:44.959 we'd run cool fires, low fires through that forest floor, 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:46.600 so it would take out a lot of the old 0:11:47.040 --> 0:11:50.319 you know, the snags and the dead vegetation, put nutrients 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:53.880 back in the soil, and really increase that grassy forb 0:11:54.000 --> 0:11:56.400 cover that was on the forest floor. And they loved it. 0:11:56.520 --> 0:11:58.320 I mean they just took off. Some of those areas 0:11:58.320 --> 0:12:03.080 are just prime hunting at this point. Yeah, everything loves it, right, Yeah, 0:12:03.559 --> 0:12:07.240 I mean deer did really well in it, Turkeys have 0:12:07.320 --> 0:12:10.319 done well in it. I mean it just is um 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:12.760 and even their insects. I mean, we have um some 0:12:12.840 --> 0:12:15.800 of the corner blue and Mitchell saeder butterflies that are 0:12:15.840 --> 0:12:19.600 really heavily dependent on loop and nectar sources, and that 0:12:19.679 --> 0:12:22.280 loop and seed bank was out there. It was just 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:28.320 being um because we were not providing enough daylight and 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:30.880 running fire through the system. We really had not re 0:12:31.120 --> 0:12:35.079 established what had been native vegetation there, So it's kind 0:12:35.080 --> 0:12:38.640 of what's good for the bird scenario. Yeah, and to me, 0:12:38.720 --> 0:12:43.320 there's no more beautiful landscape out there than those savannahs. 0:12:43.400 --> 0:12:47.319 You know, I love like big cottonwood savannas and uh 0:12:47.360 --> 0:12:49.360 you have those big oak savannahs where you can see 0:12:49.400 --> 0:12:51.559 away and see him. It's going to say, that's a 0:12:51.640 --> 0:12:54.000 nice part of it. You can really get some visibility, 0:12:54.080 --> 0:12:57.319 you can see, they're they're very aesthetic and we've lost 0:12:57.360 --> 0:12:59.080 a lot of those. So it's been nice that not 0:12:59.200 --> 0:13:02.680 only in Michigan, but you know throughout the South we're 0:13:02.720 --> 0:13:05.160 restoring a lot of the pine savannah's down there and 0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:10.120 getting those historical long leaf you know, um savannah's out 0:13:10.240 --> 0:13:12.800 on the landscape and running fire through them and they're 0:13:12.920 --> 0:13:17.520 very um, they're very special places. Yeah, you might be 0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:21.280 familiar with the Crotan in North Carolina. My in laws 0:13:21.320 --> 0:13:23.240 living not far from there, so we go when we're there, 0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:27.480 we go for walks and borgeous area, just gorgeous. Do 0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:32.040 you understand the history, I'm sure you do of how 0:13:32.559 --> 0:13:34.840 early on when people are trying to re establish turkeys 0:13:34.880 --> 0:13:40.240 they would use domestic birds, not domestic birds but they'd 0:13:40.320 --> 0:13:43.760 use like, uh, you know, wild birds raised in captivity, 0:13:44.000 --> 0:13:46.800 but it wouldn't it wasn't very effective. No, you breed 0:13:46.840 --> 0:13:48.680 you know, it doesn't take very long in a breeding 0:13:48.679 --> 0:13:50.840 program that you breed out a lot of the characteristics 0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:55.840 that make wild birds successful um meaning paranoia, paranoia and 0:13:55.920 --> 0:13:59.319 flightiness and the pens birds that that tend to do 0:13:59.400 --> 0:14:03.400 well and activity, um and and have the genetic makeup 0:14:03.480 --> 0:14:05.880 there calm and behavior and the rest of it, they 0:14:05.920 --> 0:14:07.760 just don't do that well in the wild. I mean 0:14:07.760 --> 0:14:09.679 there what would be the things that would happen when 0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:13.439 you cut them loose? They just wouldn't reproduce the population. 0:14:13.559 --> 0:14:16.120 They you'd have young, but you just didn't get above 0:14:16.120 --> 0:14:20.120 that critical threshold where the population was filling the capacity 0:14:20.160 --> 0:14:23.000 of the landscape. So they you know, they'd be there 0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:25.680 and you'd have them, but they just didn't ever get 0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:27.600 the kind of brood size you wanted. They didn't know 0:14:27.600 --> 0:14:31.240 the survival and they didn't ever expand their range. So 0:14:31.360 --> 0:14:35.400 initially they yeah, I guess I wouldn't call it lazy. 0:14:35.440 --> 0:14:38.880 They just were not competitive against other species that were 0:14:38.880 --> 0:14:41.800 out there, um And so as a result of that, 0:14:42.160 --> 0:14:45.360 they got picked off by a number of predators. They 0:14:45.400 --> 0:14:48.360 just didn't have the survival capability bread in them to 0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:52.280 really do really well. So what like, how did the 0:14:52.360 --> 0:14:56.200 breakthrough play out where people realize if you go and 0:14:56.240 --> 0:15:01.400 just capture wild birds and then very quickly move them 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:05.000 to a location, that those birds do good. Well, there's 0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:08.320 a there was technology that made that available and the 0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:11.640 pure wild birds. If you try and live trap birds 0:15:11.720 --> 0:15:14.280 wild birds using a drop net or some of the 0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:18.080 other early methods of trapping, you're unsuccessful. I mean, your 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:21.080 ability to catch those birds as they are so weary 0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:24.920 trying to walk, have them walk under a net is impossible. 0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:29.040 You know, it's just really really Oh yeah, yeah, there's 0:15:29.080 --> 0:15:33.360 just like no way. And so they recognize. So as 0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:35.760 we we got to the point where we started using 0:15:35.800 --> 0:15:39.920 some rocket net techniques early on to capture um. Actually 0:15:40.000 --> 0:15:43.040 they were first developed to do some of the waterfall trapping, 0:15:43.480 --> 0:15:46.840 and when we brought that on land, concealed the net, 0:15:47.120 --> 0:15:50.680 used rocket nets propellants to shoot a net over top 0:15:50.720 --> 0:15:53.280 of those birds. That's when we were able to start 0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:56.280 going and really capturing some of those pure wild stock 0:15:56.360 --> 0:16:00.600 that we're still found in remnant populations throughout this southeastern 0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:03.520 and central part of the United States, and so that 0:16:03.640 --> 0:16:06.480 technology allowed us then to go in and capture those 0:16:06.520 --> 0:16:09.960 birds and begin that relocation program. Before that, I mean, 0:16:10.000 --> 0:16:13.120 you couldn't get enough birds captured to really jump start 0:16:13.160 --> 0:16:15.800 those populations and then move them around. So that's what 0:16:15.840 --> 0:16:18.840 really kicked it in the high gear bringing the turkey back, 0:16:19.080 --> 0:16:21.440 that's right. And so, and we had to train all 0:16:21.480 --> 0:16:23.720 of our folks, you know, on how to use those 0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:26.880 explosive devices. We had to get you know, certified, we 0:16:26.920 --> 0:16:29.440 had to have placards. In the early days, we were 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:33.400 doing it all, you know, unregulated. There really weren't regulations 0:16:33.440 --> 0:16:38.040 again for wildlife biologists use explosives and the rest of it, um, 0:16:38.080 --> 0:16:40.600 like anything in society. After you do it for a while, 0:16:40.880 --> 0:16:43.560 we have more and more regulations. So now how we 0:16:43.600 --> 0:16:47.000 store those explosives, how we carry them on placard vehicles, 0:16:47.320 --> 0:16:49.600 getting people certified, all the rest of it as part 0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:52.480 of the daily life of a wildlife biologists, those kind 0:16:52.480 --> 0:16:55.080 of the wild West. At first, that's well, yeah, it 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:58.200 wasn't it for the good old days. The good old days, 0:16:58.240 --> 0:17:02.120 I mean it wasn't. Um, you're pretty careful with it. 0:17:02.200 --> 0:17:04.880 I mean, when you're dealing with explosives like that. Um, 0:17:05.080 --> 0:17:06.960 you've got to be pretty careful, and you want to 0:17:06.960 --> 0:17:09.280 work with people that were also careful so that as 0:17:09.320 --> 0:17:12.199 you're setting up those nets, that you're not inadvertently in 0:17:12.240 --> 0:17:15.000 front of that net, because you those nets have weights 0:17:15.280 --> 0:17:17.080 on the front of them, and that's what they shoot, 0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:19.560 that weight out and you can, I mean, you can 0:17:19.680 --> 0:17:22.480 hurt somebody pretty badly or kill them if they're out 0:17:22.560 --> 0:17:24.760 front of it. And you don't want to be around 0:17:24.800 --> 0:17:27.920 anybody had an itchy trigger finger, because you get a 0:17:27.960 --> 0:17:30.160 few birds in under the net, you're waiting for the 0:17:30.200 --> 0:17:31.920 rest of the flock to come in. If you set 0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:34.480 it off too soon or too late, you're going to 0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:37.639 have an empty net or one or two birds underneath 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:40.159 of it. So is they're like pretty high mortality on 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:42.080 the birds and you're shooting the rocket nets. Um. Not 0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:44.119 if you do it right. I mean occasionally you'll have 0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:47.720 some mortality, um. But but typically it's when a bird 0:17:47.760 --> 0:17:49.480 picks up and tries to fly and it get in 0:17:49.520 --> 0:17:51.399 the net the front of it, the weight catches it. 0:17:52.160 --> 0:17:54.280 But most of the time, if you if you can 0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:57.119 time it right and those birds are in there and 0:17:57.160 --> 0:18:00.199 you've baited long enough, I mean, typically we do the 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:03.440 trapping in the winter months, when those birds are pretty stressed, 0:18:03.880 --> 0:18:06.400 we put out bait. We get them to the point 0:18:06.440 --> 0:18:10.679 where they're comfortable coming in debate and they start to 0:18:10.680 --> 0:18:13.400 relax a little bit, and then go ahead and trap them. 0:18:13.440 --> 0:18:16.280 But if you get itchy or you know, a little 0:18:16.760 --> 0:18:20.960 trigger itchy or a little um hurried in the whole proposition, 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:23.760 you're most likely going to be unsuccessful or not as 0:18:23.800 --> 0:18:26.080 successful as you would have liked. So when they when 0:18:26.080 --> 0:18:28.159 you fire that thing, what's a good catch? Like? How? 0:18:28.320 --> 0:18:30.360 What like? What's it like? It depends on how many 0:18:30.359 --> 0:18:32.679 birds do you have in there? UM, You know there 0:18:32.720 --> 0:18:34.560 there are times that you might just get four or 0:18:34.560 --> 0:18:38.320 five birds. There are other times you might get um, fifteen, 0:18:38.440 --> 0:18:41.280 sixteen birds in there. UM. Rarely do you get more 0:18:41.280 --> 0:18:44.879 than two dozen birds in there, but you know a 0:18:44.920 --> 0:18:49.239 dozen or or less UM is more typical. And so 0:18:49.320 --> 0:18:52.600 it's about where those birds are they typically UM And 0:18:52.680 --> 0:18:55.000 depends on parts of the country too. In some areas 0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:58.680 birds really flock up bigger, bigger groups. In other places 0:18:58.680 --> 0:19:01.159 you don't get big fly in the winter months. Really, 0:19:01.840 --> 0:19:05.040 when you you can like tailor this to two experiences 0:19:05.080 --> 0:19:08.440 you had in Michigan or wherever else. That makes sense 0:19:08.480 --> 0:19:10.320 that you kind of know the timeline. But if you 0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:12.680 go into an area that has no turkey. So so 0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:16.520 when when the Nationale Turkey Federation was involved in in 0:19:16.680 --> 0:19:21.680 UM in bringing birds into new locations where there were 0:19:21.760 --> 0:19:24.040 no turkeys on the ground at all, and you bring 0:19:24.040 --> 0:19:27.200 in a population and establish a population, what's the timeline 0:19:27.200 --> 0:19:31.199 before you can start tapping that population to expand in 0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:34.040 other directions. We usually by the second year we were 0:19:34.040 --> 0:19:36.159 in there, we're trapping a few birds out of it, 0:19:36.680 --> 0:19:40.199 and some of those areas depending on how UM in 0:19:40.240 --> 0:19:42.440 the early years, I'm trying to remember how many years 0:19:42.520 --> 0:19:45.280 it was before we opened up hunting, but really it 0:19:45.320 --> 0:19:48.840 was within the first five years UM that you could 0:19:48.880 --> 0:19:52.160 be hunting within five years, Yeah, it was pretty amazing, 0:19:52.520 --> 0:19:55.480 but we had pretty extensive trapping going on to relocate, 0:19:55.560 --> 0:19:58.520 trying and fill all the available habitat. We continue to 0:19:58.560 --> 0:20:01.320 bring in some additional birds from out of state, so 0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:05.280 we were doing pretty extensive management with that, and right 0:20:05.480 --> 0:20:09.400 alongside it at that time, UM, we grew the sport 0:20:09.440 --> 0:20:11.399 of turkey hunting too. I mean there were always a 0:20:11.400 --> 0:20:14.080 few folks that went because we had turkeys to Michigan. 0:20:14.119 --> 0:20:17.120 They would go hunting, but we didn't have anywhere near 0:20:17.680 --> 0:20:19.960 the number of turkey hunters at that point in time 0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:22.800 as we do today. It's the turkey hunting is one 0:20:22.840 --> 0:20:25.680 of the entry points for hunters um in many parts 0:20:25.680 --> 0:20:28.800 of the country, including Michigan, deer in Turkey, or the 0:20:28.840 --> 0:20:30.960 two entry points where it used to be small game. 0:20:31.200 --> 0:20:33.840 You know, through the forties, fifties, and sixties, it was 0:20:33.920 --> 0:20:37.280 usually pheasant hunting, squirrel and rabbit. Now it's moved over 0:20:37.320 --> 0:20:40.119 to deer in Turkey or the points of entry. Yeah, 0:20:40.240 --> 0:20:42.119 I feel like I feel like the Turkey even though 0:20:42.160 --> 0:20:44.400 it's a spring activity, I feel like it's siphoned off 0:20:44.440 --> 0:20:48.200 a lot of small game interests somehow, like traditional small game, 0:20:48.240 --> 0:20:49.800 you know. I mean like I feel like, like growing 0:20:49.880 --> 0:20:53.159 up pretty Turkey, there's so much like squirrel and rabbit hunting. 0:20:53.720 --> 0:20:55.520 But then the deer hunting just got better and better 0:20:55.520 --> 0:20:57.800 and better better, and so all these like big things 0:20:57.840 --> 0:21:02.159 like turkeys around everywhere. Deer hunting got really good. I 0:21:02.200 --> 0:21:05.159 think I think it was also the demographic changes and 0:21:05.240 --> 0:21:08.320 the you know, we're now three generations off the farm 0:21:08.440 --> 0:21:11.359 or ranch, and I think people that lived on the 0:21:11.359 --> 0:21:15.119 farm did small game hunting on a more regular activity. 0:21:15.160 --> 0:21:17.040 They go out back to the woodlot and kill a 0:21:17.040 --> 0:21:20.280 few squirrel and and have use it for food. They 0:21:20.320 --> 0:21:22.479 go rabbit hunting through the winter months and use it 0:21:22.520 --> 0:21:25.520 for food. And now people have to make it. Most 0:21:25.560 --> 0:21:27.919 people do not live on the land where they hunt, 0:21:27.960 --> 0:21:31.680 and so you have to be pretty directed and also 0:21:31.840 --> 0:21:34.399