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Speaker 1: Rivals as a production of I Heart Radio. Hey everyone,

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Speaker 1: this is Rivals, let show about music rivalries and beeps

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Speaker 1: and feuds and long summering tensions between pop musicians. My

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Speaker 1: name is Stephen Hayden. I'm one of the hosts of

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Speaker 1: the show, and this is my co host. My name

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Speaker 1: is Jordan Ron Talk. This is our first episode. Maybe

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Speaker 1: we have approximately ten thousand rivalries on our master list already,

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Speaker 1: don't we. I mean it's a huge, little, massive, massive list.

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Speaker 1: So we're excited to get into everything. I wish we

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Speaker 1: could talk about ten thousand rivalries just in this episode,

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Speaker 1: but this episode would be like fifteen hours long, and

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Speaker 1: I don't think anyone would listen to that. We probably

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Speaker 1: we would, We would listen. We probably die in the

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Speaker 1: middle of it, though, and would just be dead air.

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Speaker 1: So we're excited to get into the show. You might

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Speaker 1: be wondering, like, why do we want to hear these

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Speaker 1: guys talk about music rivalries? Or who the hell are we?

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Speaker 1: What are your qualifications? Show us your papers, you know,

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Speaker 1: let's get into it. Well, I wrote a book, You're

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Speaker 1: the book on music rivalries. It's called your Favorite Band

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Speaker 1: Is Killing Me? And it came out a couple of

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Speaker 1: years ago, and I wrote a book about music Robberries,

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Speaker 1: just because uh, I love music rivalries. I think they're fascinating. Yeah, conflict,

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Speaker 1: you have famous people, hilarious anecdotes about people getting really angry,

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Speaker 1: which you know is always classic, always classic comedy gold.

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Speaker 1: I also feel like the reason why we as music

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Speaker 1: fans tend to be attracted to beefs, in feuds and

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Speaker 1: all of these rivalries is that they sort of reflect

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Speaker 1: our own need to kind of work out our issues

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Speaker 1: in different ways. You know, Like we look at these

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Speaker 1: artists who exist in in the same lane, but maybe

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Speaker 1: they're different in some crucial way, and we pit them

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Speaker 1: against each other because really those people signify opposing ideas,

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Speaker 1: and instead of fighting wars over these ideas, we talk

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Speaker 1: about it by either talking about celebrities or sports teams

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Speaker 1: or whatever the case may be. Philosophical debate but with

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Speaker 1: much better clothes and better look absolutely a great way

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Speaker 1: to put it. So I know that I'm qualified to

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Speaker 1: talk about this, But what are you doing here? Jordan's am?

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Speaker 1: I do my best? I am a music editor at

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Speaker 1: People Magazine and a contributing writer Rolling Stone, and before

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Speaker 1: that I was at VH one for a number of years.

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Speaker 1: I have not written the book on music ravelries, but

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Speaker 1: I've talked to some of the people involved, profiled Paul McCartney,

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Speaker 1: ringo star, David Crosby, David Byrne, people all at the

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Speaker 1: heart of famous musical feuds. So yeah, happy to bring

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Speaker 1: some of that here. I'm very excited about the rivalry

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Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking about today. I feel like most

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Speaker 1: of the times on the show, we're gonna be talking

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Speaker 1: about rivalries between artists or bands, and that's always cool,

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Speaker 1: But to me, like the best ravalries actually exist within bands. Oh, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: inter band rivalries because it's like you can't really generate

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Speaker 1: a good h for somebody unless you, like you worked

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Speaker 1: with them or being in the back of a tour

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Speaker 1: bus for you know, hours at a time for years. Yes,

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Speaker 1: And the rivalry we're gonna be talking about today, I

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Speaker 1: think it is like one of the all time great

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Speaker 1: intra band rivalries, maybe the greatest, I would yeah, I

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Speaker 1: would argue that the greatest. I think so, because you

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Speaker 1: got you got the romantic edge just kicks it over.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about Lindsay Buckingham versus Stevie Nicks, bringing on

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Speaker 1: in Fleetwood Mac. Okay, let's dive into this battle. Fleetwood

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Speaker 1: Mac has like a long, crazy history, lots of different

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Speaker 1: band members. The only constants are Mick Fleetwood and John McVie,

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Speaker 1: the Fleetwood Mac, the Fleetwood Mac, the rhythm section. But like,

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Speaker 1: how did Lindsay Buckingham and Stevien Nicks end up in

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Speaker 1: the same band? You know that story? Well, the best

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Speaker 1: part sort of is is that you know, rumors and

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Speaker 1: almost people when people know that's just the tip of

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Speaker 1: the iceberg, they that that's the sort of the end

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Speaker 1: of their relationship. Stevie and Lindsay were high school friends,

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Speaker 1: didn't They made like a religious Yeah, it was like

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Speaker 1: a young life and they sang like mom is in

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Speaker 1: the as songs or something. Yeah, it's like the two

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Speaker 1: like sexiest drudgist rock stars. They met at church. I

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Speaker 1: love it. They were in a band in high school

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Speaker 1: called Fritz and they were actually a decent sized band.

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Speaker 1: They opened for like Jimi Hendrix and Janice Joplin, which, apparently,

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Speaker 1: Stevie says later was kind of where she developed her

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Speaker 1: style with the feathers and you know, the the gauzy

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Speaker 1: um scarves and stuff and uh and They eventually split

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Speaker 1: the band in seventy one, try to make a big

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Speaker 1: move to l A. And that's actually when they first

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Speaker 1: became like a romantic item. And the Stevie said later, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, she went out and got all these jobs

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Speaker 1: as like a waitress and a housekeeper and stuff, and

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Speaker 1: then she'd come home and and Linda will be stone

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Speaker 1: out of his mind and she would like, you know,

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Speaker 1: be passed out, and he would she would like move

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Speaker 1: his legs and like clean under you know, clean up

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Speaker 1: where he was and everything. Um. And they went to

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Speaker 1: a sound city and recorded their duo album, Buckingham Knicks

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Speaker 1: amazing album. Well cover is actually it's really kind of

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Speaker 1: the one of the first huge cracks in the relationship

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Speaker 1: and as a sore point for Stevie for years to come.

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Speaker 1: She they were both totally broke. She spent something like

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Speaker 1: her last hundred bucks on this white blouse and they're

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Speaker 1: taking the photo and the photographers and no, it's not

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Speaker 1: not quite sexy enough. Can you take that blouse off?

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Speaker 1: She really didn't want to, and Lindsay just jumps down

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Speaker 1: her throat. I'll call on you're being a child while

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Speaker 1: you being so paranoid it's art, and she really was

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Speaker 1: coerced into taking her blouse off and it really upset her.

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Speaker 1: It was a huge sticking point in their relationship. I

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Speaker 1: think it really sowed the seeds for there. You know,

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Speaker 1: if your boyfriend, you gotta like step in when the

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Speaker 1: photographer says to your girlfriend, take your blouse off. Don't

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Speaker 1: be on the photographer's side in that situation. But never

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Speaker 1: side with your woman. Let her keep the blouse on.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, that's a great record, great record. It totally

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Speaker 1: tanked and Stevie was thinking about quit music after tanked, actually,

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Speaker 1: But the good thing that came of it was that

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Speaker 1: when they're in Sound City recording, Mike Fleetwood heard Lindsay

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Speaker 1: Buckingham recording guitar solo. Mike Fleetwood obviously Jumper and Fleetwood

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Speaker 1: Mac um Bob Welsh, the Fleetwood Mac guitarists had just

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Speaker 1: left and they were looking for new guitarists. So he

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Speaker 1: tracked down Lindsay and asked him to join the band,

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Speaker 1: but just Lindsay and just Lindsay, and Lindsay said, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, I've we're sort of a package deal. You

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Speaker 1: gotta bring my girlfriend Stevie too, And Um and they

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Speaker 1: kind of had I guess she showed up at an

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Speaker 1: audition straight from work wearing a waitress outfit, and they

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Speaker 1: had a little audition and then went to famously went

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Speaker 1: to dinner I think on New Year's Eve or something

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Speaker 1: in the eteen seventy four at a Mexican restaurant, and

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Speaker 1: that was kind of how the band started. The band,

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Speaker 1: the classic line up, the famous classic lineup, and they

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Speaker 1: started recording uh what self titled record, and the big

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Speaker 1: single from there is by the girlfriend who had to

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Speaker 1: be forced into the band, Rhianna, and which is like

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Speaker 1: you know in that album, and that song kind of

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Speaker 1: kicked that album into the stratosphere. And I think that

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Speaker 1: record is old, like four million copies, which was like

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Speaker 1: astronomical for the mid seventies. Oh it's ton yeah, And

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Speaker 1: I mean that and Landslide too were the biggest songs

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Speaker 1: on that album. So like, so Stevie's already kind of

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Speaker 1: writing like a lot of the big hits, yeah, And

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Speaker 1: Lindsay's not real happy about that. And I although Lindsay

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Speaker 1: is an important contributor to our songs, he's kind of

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Speaker 1: important on the arrangement and production side, but Stevie is

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Speaker 1: still the big star and he loved Nega. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I guess when they started recording their next album was

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Speaker 1: gonna be rumors he said that she needed him to

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Speaker 1: make her song sound quote halfway Decent, which is a great,

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Speaker 1: you know, great line. Well, and their relationship was starting

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Speaker 1: to fall apart. I mean everyone, every everybody you have

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Speaker 1: you have. You have Lindsay Buckingham and Stevie Nick's breaking up,

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Speaker 1: and you haven and Christie McVeigh breaking up. Of course,

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Speaker 1: the difference in the McVie situation is that John McVie

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Speaker 1: isn't a songwriter, so you only get one side of

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Speaker 1: that relationship. You have Christine McVie writing You Make Loving Fun,

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Speaker 1: which I believe is about Christine mcvegh having sex with

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Speaker 1: the w from from Fleetwood Mac, which to John mcs

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Speaker 1: credit plays a sick bassline on that song, even though

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Speaker 1: you know you think, alright, honey, this is not a

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Speaker 1: nice thing to make me play on. I know that

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Speaker 1: you're singing about having sex with the lighting director here.

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Speaker 1: But John McVie, the consummate professional, he does it. But

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Speaker 1: you know you can't really read into his baselines. You know,

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Speaker 1: there's nothing confessional about his Basselines. But then in the

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Speaker 1: you can feel the pain. You can feel you can

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Speaker 1: feel the pain. They're very deep and and and and

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Speaker 1: heavy Stevie and uh and Lindsay. However, you hear both

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Speaker 1: sides are there, and you have all over that record exactly,

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Speaker 1: and you have uh, you know, Stevie writing Dreams, which

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Speaker 1: in sly Stone's bed. Yes, oh believe me. I own

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Speaker 1: the Classic Albums documentary on Blu Ray by the way.

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Speaker 1: I needed to get that Blu Ray. Uh. So you

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Speaker 1: have Stevie writing Dreams, which is I think kind of

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Speaker 1: a tender breakup song because yeah, it's much nicer than

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Speaker 1: Go and then um, because it's Lindsay is writing Go

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Speaker 1: your own Way, because like Stevie in Dreams, it's more

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Speaker 1: sort of like a zen idea that like players only

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Speaker 1: players only love you when they're playing, which is kind

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Speaker 1: of like a dis I guess, But like I feel

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Speaker 1: like the overall vibe of that song is like you'll

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Speaker 1: get over it. You know, women may come, women will go.

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Speaker 1: When the rain watches you free, you'll know, like this

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Speaker 1: idea that you'll be purified by nature. I guess, like

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Speaker 1: when you have a horrible breakup and then you have

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Speaker 1: Lindsay Buckingham essentially calling Stevie Nicks a slut and up

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Speaker 1: and checking up uh and and never going back again.

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Speaker 1: Another Lindsey Buckingham song kind of a bitter song like

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Speaker 1: it kind of fronts is like him trying to reconcile

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Speaker 1: his feelings about the breakup, but it's also kind of

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Speaker 1: jabbing at Stevie a little bit. And of course the

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Speaker 1: big Stevie Nick song that doesn't end up on the

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Speaker 1: record is Silver Springs, which is really sort of the

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Speaker 1: theme in a lot of ways to their relationship. It

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Speaker 1: crops up again and again in their story. It's really interesting.

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Speaker 1: I mean, she wrote it as sort of tender but

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Speaker 1: also kind of vengeful post ortem of their relationship, and

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Speaker 1: she she wrote it she really felt strongly about the song,

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Speaker 1: and also she wrote it as a gift to her

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Speaker 1: mother too. She was gonna give her the songwrits to it,

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Speaker 1: and so she really wanted it on the album and

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Speaker 1: the band for reasons that kind of seemed not, you know, well,

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Speaker 1: the idea it was too long. Yeah, The idea was that, like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: because Silver Springs was supposed to be on rumors. But

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Speaker 1: then there was this idea that like the album is

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Speaker 1: too long, we have to cut a song, and there's

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Speaker 1: also like a lot of ballads already on this record,

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Speaker 1: so they decided to put on I don't want to know.

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Speaker 1: She later said that she recorded that song with a

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Speaker 1: gun to her head. I don't I don't think that

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Speaker 1: means literally, but like in the figured of sense, she

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Speaker 1: felt like she had a gun to her head when

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Speaker 1: she did that song. They did the backing track without

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Speaker 1: her and not telling her, and then took her out

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Speaker 1: to the parking lot and said, hey, well, here's the

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Speaker 1: deal with Silver Springs. You gotta sing this song. And

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Speaker 1: they made Nick Fleetwood tell her because he's, you know,

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Speaker 1: the unofficial leader, I guess official leader, And and she

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Speaker 1: went berserk and then yeah, as you said, just recorded

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Speaker 1: it with you know, metaphorical gun to her head and

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Speaker 1: it bugged her forever. Yeah. Well, going back to Silver Springs,

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Speaker 1: it's interesting to contrast that with with Go your Own Way,

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Speaker 1: because Go your Own Way is this incredibly bitter song

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Speaker 1: clearly about Stevie Nicks, and you know, Stephen Nicks had

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Speaker 1: this quote about like every time Lindsey Buckingham would sing

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Speaker 1: the part about packing up and checking up is all

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Speaker 1: you want to do it like I want. I wanted

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Speaker 1: to kill him. Yeah, I want to go over there

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Speaker 1: and kill him. He knew what He really pushed my

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Speaker 1: buttons through that. It was like, I'll make you suffer

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Speaker 1: for leading me, and I did. But then, which is great,

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Speaker 1: it's like some fatal attraction. Like but then. Stevie Nicks though,

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Speaker 1: she had an interview that she did in nineties seven

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Speaker 1: where she said that when she wrote Silver Springs, the

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Speaker 1: idea was like this is the quote from an interview

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Speaker 1: that she that she said, I'm so angry with you.

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Speaker 1: You will listen to me on the radio for the

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Speaker 1: rest of your life and it will bug you. I

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Speaker 1: hope it bugs because you listen to the lyrics of

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Speaker 1: that song and like you can't escape the sound of

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Speaker 1: the woman who loves you, like my voice wants you.

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Speaker 1: And of course you know that song. It was left

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Speaker 1: off of rumors it was the B side for go

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Speaker 1: your Own Way, which is just the ultimate and dignity

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Speaker 1: for it, the B side for the song slagging her off. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna put you on the B side, and like

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Speaker 1: you know, and again, like you said, Stevie thought, okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna give the royalties for this song to my

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Speaker 1: mother and it's gonna be a big, you know, big

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Speaker 1: pay for her. But then I didn't. Yeah, they they

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Speaker 1: put on the single and it didn't make news. It

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Speaker 1: would have made a ton more money if it had been. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I have best selling albums of all time. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: But then there's that sequel to this story in nine

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Speaker 1: seven they end up reuniting the classic Land with Fleetwood

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Speaker 1: Mac end up reuniting for the Dance And by the way,

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Speaker 1: do you know how Stevie Nicks and Lindsay Buckingham got

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Speaker 1: back together? Twister, My Favorite Things, Natural Disasters, Bill Paxton,

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Speaker 1: and Fleetwood Mac My three favorite Things. They did a

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Speaker 1: song for the Twister soundtrack in called Twisted. I want

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Speaker 1: to know what business meeting got this movie? It's about

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Speaker 1: a storm, cows fly through the air? Got hell on

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Speaker 1: how we got Paxton? What else do we what do

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Speaker 1: we need? Oh? We need, we need, Yeah, we need,

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Speaker 1: we need. The most tumultuous couple in rock history to

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Speaker 1: record a song that is just a slight variation on

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Speaker 1: the title of the movie. I just like I'm imagining.

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Speaker 1: Like other blockbusters from the nineties, like if you would

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Speaker 1: have had Titanic or in Armageddon, like Armageddon, but that

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Speaker 1: brings Stevie and Lindsay back together. They kind of brings

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Speaker 1: them back into the fold of Fleetwood Mac and Silver

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Speaker 1: Springs ends up being sort of the breakout song from

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Speaker 1: the dance because it's like the before that most people

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Speaker 1: didn't know the song. I know personally, i'd never heard

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Speaker 1: the song before it was in the dance. And the

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Speaker 1: thing that people always remember from the television special of

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Speaker 1: the Dance is Fleetwood Mac playing Silver Springs because it

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Speaker 1: culminates with like two minutes of like Stevie Nixon. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if they're like I murdering each other or

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Speaker 1: I like fucking each other. It's like one of the two.

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Speaker 1: And like there's a part because like you know that song,

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Speaker 1: it's an amazing song because it just builds and builds

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Speaker 1: and builds, and it looks terrified. I have to looks terrified.

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Speaker 1: But he's holding is ground. He's like he doesn't break

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Speaker 1: the stair, which is very balls on the I would

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Speaker 1: never do it because like as the song progresses, Stevie

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Speaker 1: basically like starts walking toward him and like shouting the

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Speaker 1: court like you know, shouting the end lyrics of the

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Speaker 1: song and like shouting at him that like you'll never

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Speaker 1: forget me, Like I will always haunt your dreams. You know,

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Speaker 1: I will be the woman you never get over. Like

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Speaker 1: that's the message of the end of this song. And

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Speaker 1: Lindsay is he is he's rattled, but he also feel like, oh,

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Speaker 1: maybe he's kind of turned on by this because he's

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Speaker 1: like not breaking a stare and he's like given it

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Speaker 1: back to her. So it's like, wow, you know, I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is the the amazing thing about this relationship. And

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Speaker 1: you know there's other twist and turns that came after this,

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Speaker 1: but like and before, we all have that X in

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Speaker 1: our life who is like main X, the number one X.

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Speaker 1: You know, the person who maybe the first person to

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Speaker 1: break your heart. Maybe you almost came close to like

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Speaker 1: marrying that person, maybe you divorced that person. But in

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Speaker 1: most cases you never see that person again, or like

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Speaker 1: you maybe see them occasionally, you don't work with them.

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Speaker 1: You know, they're not a part of your life. They're

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Speaker 1: the person that every time something cool happens to you,

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Speaker 1: you do something cool, you think, wow, I wish this

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Speaker 1: person could see this, right now exactly, I rubbed in

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Speaker 1: their face so I could like spike the ball in

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Speaker 1: the face, But it's always an imagined thing, like you

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Speaker 1: don't actually maybe you look them up on Facebook or

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Speaker 1: something that's that's as close as you get to them.

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Speaker 1: And I think, what is so crazy about food Mac?

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Speaker 1: And we all know this, of course. I mean, the

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Speaker 1: attraction of this band is that, like, these two people

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Speaker 1: were forced to be in the same proximity for forty

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Speaker 1: years and it's so fucked up that they had to

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Speaker 1: do that. But it's amazing. It's so dramatic. It is

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Speaker 1: really fucked up, but also it's cool because then you know,

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Speaker 1: every amazing song that the other one presents is just

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Speaker 1: like spike in the ball in the face the other person.

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Speaker 1: It's the best and the worst of both, but to me,

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Speaker 1: it's mostly the worst. I think it's better you want

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Speaker 1: to spike it in your brain, you don't actually in

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Speaker 1: your proximity. But there a lot better adjusted than I am. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: maybe so. I mean, they have that toxic element to

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Speaker 1: their relationship, but there's also the reality that they sort

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Speaker 1: of need each other in order to completely fulfill their

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Speaker 1: sort of artistic potential, and there is sort of like

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Speaker 1: a functional dysfunctionality to their relationship, obviously because it resulted

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Speaker 1: in all this hugely successful, popular, beloved music, you know

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Speaker 1: that multiple generations enjoy all right hand, We'll be right

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Speaker 1: back with more rivals. Do you know much about the

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Speaker 1: Tango in the Nights? I yes, I was. Actually I

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Speaker 1: was about to to bring that up. It's just like

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Speaker 1: one of my favorite periods of their relationship because it

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Speaker 1: is like the ultimate sour and sweet situation, like where

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Speaker 1: do you feel, like, what in the hell were they

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Speaker 1: still doing each other's lives? But then you're also like, oh,

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00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:19,399
Speaker 1: they kind of needed each other too at the same time.

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Speaker 1: But it's like the worst example of that because like

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Speaker 1: like Stevie Nicks was like she was like in a

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Speaker 1: bad one, was in rough shape. She was like coming

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Speaker 1: out of rehab and been overprescribed klonopin and just was

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Speaker 1: really I mean, she said later mean she lost years

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Speaker 1: of her life in Matt and I guess when they

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Speaker 1: were doing Tango the Night Apparently, Lindsey Bucking I'm installed

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Speaker 1: like a Winnebago at the end of the driveway of

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Speaker 1: the studio, so that I think Mick Fleetwood and Stevie

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Speaker 1: could go and indulge in in private, so we didn't

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Speaker 1: have to deal with it. She went to rehab for

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Speaker 1: cocaine addiction, and I mean, was that before the sessions?

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Speaker 1: I think it was just before Yeah, I think she

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Speaker 1: got out and then you said, yeah, she was prescribed

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Speaker 1: kolonopin as I don't know what as like an anti

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Speaker 1: was that anti anxiety which you're taking klonopin like quite

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Speaker 1: a bit of it. So she's like incoherent a lot

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Speaker 1: of the time. And I know, like one thing that

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Speaker 1: Stevin Nicks has talked about during the Tango in the

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Speaker 1: Ninth Sessions, like she's conceded that she was not in

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Speaker 1: good shape. A lot of the vocals that she was

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Speaker 1: laying down ended up being erased by Lindsey Buckingham because

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Speaker 1: Buckingham was producing the record, and she said, I mean,

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Speaker 1: her quote was, I'm sure they totally sucked. I'm sure.

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Speaker 1: But then she also talked about the fact that, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, Lindsey Buckingham was making this record at his

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Speaker 1: house and the vocal booth was in the vocal booth

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Speaker 1: was in the bedroom, like his bedroom. And again this

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Speaker 1: kind of goes back to that idea of like you

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Speaker 1: have an X, don't invite them in your bedroom exactly

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Speaker 1: the biggest X of your life. And now you're there,

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Speaker 1: you're in their bedroom again, and you know that there's

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Speaker 1: kind of you know they're they've moved on, they have

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Speaker 1: another person in their life, and like you're over them,

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Speaker 1: but like you never totally get over something like that,

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Speaker 1: especially if you have to be around them all the time.

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Speaker 1: So it's extremely fraught and it's a mess. And like

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Speaker 1: I think that Lindsey Buckingham and ended up having to

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Speaker 1: like stitch vocal takes together to like not full takes,

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00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:12,760
Speaker 1: but like Stevie Nicks is barely on that record. I

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Speaker 1: said something like they spent a year on it. She

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Speaker 1: was there for like three weeks or something. I think

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Speaker 1: that's what he said later and in that whole period,

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Speaker 1: I mean he ended up quitting right after that. You

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Speaker 1: didn't go on the tour to promote it, and they

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Speaker 1: had it was in UM I think it was Stephen

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Speaker 1: Davis's biography gold Dust Woman, from I think two years

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Speaker 1: ago UM where they had some kind of physical altercation

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Speaker 1: where Lindsay apparently threw over the hood of his car

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Speaker 1: or something. And well that was Van intervened. I think

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00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:41,800
Speaker 1: that was like in Mick Fleetwood's book, but yeah, because

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Speaker 1: because I know, like I think Stevie and Lindsay denied

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Speaker 1: that later that there was a physical thing, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: I know, like in Mick Fleetwood's book, he talked that

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Speaker 1: there was some sort of physical altercation at the end

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Speaker 1: of the Tango in the Night era and that sort

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Speaker 1: of led to Lindsey Buckingham leaving the band. I gotta say, though,

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00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:06,600
Speaker 1: tang in the Night great record. I love that album.

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Speaker 1: What I'm more of a mirage guy controversial pain well,

396
00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:11,640
Speaker 1: I didn't you can be a mirage guy. And also

397
00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:13,280
Speaker 1: saying Tango on the Night as a banger man, I

398
00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:17,240
Speaker 1: mean also is weird because it's like it was sort

399
00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:19,119
Speaker 1: of aligned at the time. And I feel like if

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Speaker 1: you listen to like indie rock from the two thousand tens,

401
00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:24,560
Speaker 1: a lot of it sounds like Tango in the Night.

402
00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:26,240
Speaker 1: Like Tango on the Night ended up being like a

403
00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:31,320
Speaker 1: hugely influential record, um, and it just came out of

404
00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:33,879
Speaker 1: this like terrible period like where Lindsay Buckingham and Stevie

405
00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:37,280
Speaker 1: Nicks were like in a really bad way, and you know,

406
00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:40,440
Speaker 1: Lindsay ended up leaving the band. Um, we have to

407
00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:43,800
Speaker 1: talk about how Lindsey Buckingham got fired. Yes, the most

408
00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:48,119
Speaker 1: recent Lindsey Buckingham finally got fired from Fleetwood Mac. And

409
00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:51,920
Speaker 1: by the way, Lindsey Buckingham was hired in nineteen four

410
00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:55,200
Speaker 1: and he got Stevie Nicks into the band because Stevie

411
00:20:55,280 --> 00:21:00,240
Speaker 1: Nicks was his girlfriend. So now we flash forward four years,

412
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Speaker 1: four fucking years later, and I'm telling you this is like,

413
00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:08,280
Speaker 1: you know, the Long Come. You know Shakespeare, You know,

414
00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:13,399
Speaker 1: people overuse Shakespearean as like an adjective, but in this case,

415
00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:18,920
Speaker 1: a tragedy apt So they're Fleetwood Mac. They're playing I

416
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,879
Speaker 1: think it's a Music Cares event in New York and

417
00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:25,120
Speaker 1: before they come out, you know, they're going to introduce

418
00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:27,720
Speaker 1: the band to come on stage. And as they're walking out,

419
00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:30,919
Speaker 1: they play Rhiannon, which is a natural thing to do,

420
00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:34,360
Speaker 1: one of the most famous Fleetwood Max songs. But apparently

421
00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:37,840
Speaker 1: this really annoys Lindsey Buckingham. And I don't know, like,

422
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:40,000
Speaker 1: I don't feel like he rolls his eyes or something.

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00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:42,840
Speaker 1: He kind of he's kind of like a snarky asshole

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00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:45,960
Speaker 1: about it, and Stevie's trying to speak comes up. Yeah,

425
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,040
Speaker 1: and like, what was he like at least smirking, And

426
00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:52,520
Speaker 1: I guess Christie mc via mc fleetwood start like slow

427
00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:54,840
Speaker 1: waltzing behind them. Just I guess it's like an inter

428
00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:56,960
Speaker 1: band joke that she talks for when she talks, she

429
00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:58,680
Speaker 1: goes on for a while. I don't know that's what

430
00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:02,840
Speaker 1: what they later said. His behavior at the Music Cares

431
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:07,439
Speaker 1: event apparently really really annoyed Stevie so well, and you

432
00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:11,080
Speaker 1: also feel like, okay, there's probably again forty four years

433
00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:15,480
Speaker 1: pent up. It's like all the times, you know, Lindsey

434
00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:18,240
Speaker 1: Buckingham played go your Own Way, all the times he

435
00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:20,439
Speaker 1: said that her songs weren't that good and he had

436
00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,600
Speaker 1: to improve them a short, short fuse. All these things

437
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,320
Speaker 1: have been building and building, and she's like, okay, well,

438
00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:28,200
Speaker 1: I'm in a band. This part of being in a band.

439
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:32,040
Speaker 1: I can tolerate this. And then finally this Music Cares

440
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:34,119
Speaker 1: event is apparently the strong that breaks the camel's back

441
00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:38,760
Speaker 1: because Lindsey Buckingham, it's two days later, he's watching he's

442
00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:41,680
Speaker 1: watching the Grammys. Irving as Off, one of the most

443
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:45,440
Speaker 1: famous rock managers in music history. He's he's flutiod Max

444
00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:49,359
Speaker 1: manager and and he calls Lindsay and he says, you

445
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:52,680
Speaker 1: really did it this time, dude. Stevie never wants to

446
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:56,239
Speaker 1: be on stage with you again, is the quote. And

447
00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:59,520
Speaker 1: what is kind of like funny to me? And it

448
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:01,639
Speaker 1: says he says so much. It's kind of funny to me,

449
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,240
Speaker 1: it's also kind of heartbreaking. Lindsey Buckingham. Here's this and

450
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:06,920
Speaker 1: he's like, okay, he doesn't really register that he's out

451
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:09,159
Speaker 1: of the band. Like a couple of days later, he

452
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:11,360
Speaker 1: calls Irving A's off back and he says, hey, wait

453
00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:14,880
Speaker 1: a second, wait, when you said that stuff about yeah,

454
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:16,000
Speaker 1: when you said that she has want to be on

455
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:17,520
Speaker 1: stage with me again, you meant did you mean that

456
00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:20,480
Speaker 1: she's leaving or that I'm fired? Like he kind of

457
00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:23,960
Speaker 1: thought like, well, maybe she's actually leaving and I'm still

458
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,119
Speaker 1: in the band, and Irving azof has to tell him no,

459
00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,560
Speaker 1: like you've been ousted was the word. Apparently, when ousted.

460
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:33,160
Speaker 1: She gave them an ultimatum. She said it's him or me,

461
00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:37,680
Speaker 1: and they chose Stevie and Lindsay is gone. And that's

462
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:39,840
Speaker 1: kind of where we're at right now in this conflict.

463
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:44,000
Speaker 1: It's still simmering. Lindsey bucking had ended up suing Fleetwood

464
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,439
Speaker 1: Mac for like lost revenue. I don't you know what

465
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:51,399
Speaker 1: they claims that because part of the main hurt was

466
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:53,880
Speaker 1: that when he called Irving back was because he emailed

467
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,480
Speaker 1: Mike Fleetwood after the first phone call and basically said,

468
00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,399
Speaker 1: you know, oh that's weird Stevie's gone and didn't get

469
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,320
Speaker 1: a response MC Fleetwood and that's man like, oh something

470
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 1: something feels weird here. And then he called Irving back

471
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,040
Speaker 1: and then you know, wait, wait, so she's leaving, right,

472
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,440
Speaker 1: she's leaving off? Cool? Wait to let me on stage

473
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:13,040
Speaker 1: with me again. Okay, that's cool, man, I'll be a

474
00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:16,440
Speaker 1: band rehressal. And next week she's leaving, right or am

475
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:20,960
Speaker 1: I fired? Like you're gone, dude, you're done. That's his

476
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:23,680
Speaker 1: brutal to me. And they apparently stuff and it said

477
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,840
Speaker 1: you go through this lawsuit and there's like he sends

478
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:30,439
Speaker 1: us like heartbreaking email to the band, lengthy, you know,

479
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,320
Speaker 1: pouring his heart on the very ins sent from my iPhone,

480
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,280
Speaker 1: which for some reason crassy. It was like the screenshot

481
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,480
Speaker 1: of this email. Um, and apparently no one really wrote

482
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:41,400
Speaker 1: back him. He got like two cryptic comments. I think

483
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:43,600
Speaker 1: he got like John McVie saying that he wasn't allowed

484
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,159
Speaker 1: to speak to him, and then um, but I guess

485
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 1: after they settled, Christine said something to him about how

486
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:53,200
Speaker 1: like you know Stevie. He says that Christine said, you know, Stevie,

487
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:55,120
Speaker 1: you know, I know on some level Stevie really wants,

488
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:58,280
Speaker 1: you know, wants you to come home, which is like, sure, okay,

489
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 1: well that's the thing. Because, by the way, we should

490
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:04,120
Speaker 1: say that Fleetwood Mac did a tour with Mike Campbell

491
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,920
Speaker 1: from Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers and Neil Finn from

492
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:11,960
Speaker 1: Crowded House. Very successful tour, sold out everywhere. I think

493
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:15,200
Speaker 1: they've toured around the world. I I can only assume

494
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,080
Speaker 1: that tours made tens of millions of dollars. Like people

495
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,760
Speaker 1: did not give a ship that Lindsey Buckingham wasn't on stage,

496
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 1: which to me makes me sad because I actually sad.

497
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 1: I love Lindsey Buckingham. I've never seen Fleetwood Mac with

498
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:30,119
Speaker 1: Lindsey Buckingham. But I did see Lindsey Buckingham play a

499
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:34,400
Speaker 1: solo show five years ago in a high school auditorium

500
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:36,680
Speaker 1: because he was doing this weird to or like where

501
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:38,480
Speaker 1: he was doing kind of like out of the way

502
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,920
Speaker 1: music venues. Where was that It was in Wisconsin. It

503
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,920
Speaker 1: was an outside of Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and it was an

504
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:48,439
Speaker 1: amazing show. And the thing about Lindsey Buckingham is that

505
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 1: when he plays Go Your Own Way for like the

506
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:55,439
Speaker 1: ten billionth time in his life, his face has an

507
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 1: intensity to it. It's like almost twitching with like entered

508
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,679
Speaker 1: g and hate and anger and hurt, and it's like

509
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,640
Speaker 1: he is still reliving the emotions of that song every

510
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:08,880
Speaker 1: time he plays it. In the same way I'm sure

511
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 1: that Stevie Nicks still relives Silver Springs every time she

512
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,640
Speaker 1: sings that. And it's what makes those two I think

513
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 1: still very compelling, two people who are not baby boomers,

514
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,399
Speaker 1: you know, like you talk to younger people, you know,

515
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:24,639
Speaker 1: like Fleetwood Mac to me is like the one classic

516
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 1: rock band that has most transcended the generation Millennials love.

517
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 1: Millennials love Fleetwood Mac. Generation Z loves Fleetwood Mac. You know,

518
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 1: every every you know, like Lord talks about Fleetwood Mac

519
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 1: talks about Fleetwood Mac. You know, they have transcended. And

520
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 1: I think part of that, along which is having great songs,

521
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 1: is that sort of emotional authenticity, like they still have

522
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:50,400
Speaker 1: this sort of live wire, soap opera quality to their

523
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:53,640
Speaker 1: music where you feel like they are living. It's still

524
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:57,719
Speaker 1: all these years later, and Stevie getting Lindsay fired from

525
00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:02,520
Speaker 1: Fleetwood Mac just kind of fuels that more. It's like, no, asshole,

526
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,639
Speaker 1: I'm not over it. I'm not over all of the crap.

527
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:09,199
Speaker 1: And yeah, I can do this to you man. And

528
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 1: like you know, going back to that quote like you

529
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 1: know about go your own way in Silver Springs, like

530
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 1: where they each said I want the person to hear

531
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 1: this song and I want them to suffer every time

532
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,120
Speaker 1: that this is on the radio. I want them to suffer,

533
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 1: and I'm sure they do, so, you know, I mean

534
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 1: to me like, I mean, do you think it's over?

535
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't can't believe it it's over. Yeah,

536
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:34,680
Speaker 1: I can't. I can't. Yeah, I mean, I don't want

537
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:38,680
Speaker 1: to believe that this is the end of Lindsey Buckingham

538
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:41,400
Speaker 1: with Fleetwood Mac. I feel like there will be some

539
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:46,360
Speaker 1: reconciliation at some point. I have no basis to say that,

540
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 1: and I would understand if Stevie Nicks really does feel like,

541
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:53,119
Speaker 1: you know, screw this guy. I don't want to be

542
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 1: around him anymore. Years of history is telling you that

543
00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 1: something will bring them exactly, you know, really like the

544
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,719
Speaker 1: music cares thing is going to be the thing that

545
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:08,480
Speaker 1: ends this relationship, like really after everything else, Like that's

546
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:10,440
Speaker 1: going to be the thing that's the straw that breaks

547
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:13,640
Speaker 1: the camel's back. I mean, as successful as Fleetwood Mac

548
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 1: was with touring with Mike Campbell and Neil Finn, that's

549
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 1: not Fleetwood Mac. And I don't think. And I think

550
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 1: if Lindsey Buckingham did rejoin, they could probably double the

551
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:26,880
Speaker 1: ticket price and people would pay, would happily pay that,

552
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 1: you know, especially now, especially if you feel like they

553
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 1: haven't really reconciled. But they're in the same band because

554
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 1: they know it's good for money, you know, but they're

555
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 1: still gonna hate each other on stage. They're still gonna

556
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 1: play Silver Springs and like even have more hatred towards

557
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 1: each other. Well, here's the hypothetical, I mean kind of

558
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 1: a silly one, but rewinding back the six seventy seven,

559
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 1: if somehow they made it so that you knew nothing

560
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 1: about their personal relationships at all, just the band released

561
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 1: an album, how do you think it would have done?

562
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 1: Do you think it would have been this monumental, you know,

563
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 1: record breaking sales, you know, monolith or how do you

564
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:05,479
Speaker 1: think that their history would have changed if you removed

565
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 1: the personal element from mat I think it would have

566
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:09,360
Speaker 1: been a huge record because I think those songs are

567
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 1: amazing and they would have been hits no matter what.

568
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 1: I do think though, that Fleetwood Mac would maybe be

569
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 1: like Steely Dan sized instead of well, yeah, I think

570
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 1: I think they would be kind of talked about more

571
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 1: in the context of like every other seventies band, you know,

572
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 1: like a Steely Dan or you know, like a Peter

573
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 1: Frampton even you know, like artists that were just hugely

574
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 1: successful and are still played on classic rock radio. But like,

575
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 1: you know, someone like Frampton for instance, like there's no

576
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 1: narrative to his career, Like there's really nothing that you

577
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:41,280
Speaker 1: could say about him that is interesting beyond the music

578
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 1: and that. And really, I mean that's also true like

579
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 1: Steely Dan, who's a band I love, but there's no

580
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 1: really like interesting, kind of larger narrative to their story.

581
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 1: And like with Fleetwood Mac, I feel like that story

582
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 1: it just it just ropes people in so much in

583
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 1: it adds to the music because they're writing about it

584
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 1: on their records. I think the fact that they come

585
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 1: from like a real experience just adds to the residents

586
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 1: of that and it never gets tired. And I think

587
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 1: it doesn't get tired because of you know, there's always

588
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 1: more feel there's always something else. We're gonna take a

589
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 1: quick break to get a word from our sponsor before

590
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 1: we get to more rivals. If you were going to

591
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 1: make a case for Lindsey Buckingham coming out ahead in

592
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 1: this feud, or if you're gonna make the pro Lindsay side,

593
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 1: I guess, like what would like what would be your case?

594
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 1: I guess I mean, I think how you feel about

595
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 1: Lindsey Buckingham. Also, you know, it's dictated by how you

596
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 1: feel about Tusk. I feel like we even talked about

597
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 1: Tusk and oh man um, you know, I think he

598
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 1: sort of brought there your favorite fluid mac record. I

599
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 1: feel like it's become almost it's become the one to

600
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 1: say I think, I I mean, I don't know, it's

601
00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 1: it's definitely up there. I mean, I I like how

602
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 1: he was kind of doing the Brian Wilson, uh, you know,

603
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 1: messing with the formula thing. How I guess there's a

604
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 1: story when the first day that they went into the sessions,

605
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 1: he said to the engineer, Okay, set all the dials

606
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 1: where you usually said him, okay, now turn him add

607
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 1: and eighty degrees and we're going to see what happens.

608
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 1: And he would do, you know, put the microphone on

609
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 1: the floor and getting like a push up position and stuff.

610
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 1: It's like it's like, lindsay, that actually sounds terrible if

611
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 1: we do that, everything sounds distorted and uh and one

612
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 1: of them actually turns the machine off if you do that,

613
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 1: So like you can't do that with that one. You've

614
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 1: been you've been playing for three hours. You had to

615
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 1: turn off the machines didn't record anything. I mean, he

616
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 1: apparently was in kind of rough shape there. I guess,

617
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 1: um have you seen photos of him at that time,

618
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 1: because he cut his Yeah, freaked out in the shower

619
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 1: like like nail scissors and cut all his hair and

620
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 1: he has like the owl's eyes like where it's like

621
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 1: dark like rings around his eyes all the time. He

622
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 1: didn't wait for you know, two weeks on exactly. Just

623
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 1: I mean that is like that is like one of

624
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 1: the great cocaine records of all time, like the cocaine Yeah,

625
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 1: just just just insane. I mean when I listen to Tusk,

626
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 1: I always hear it as like a Lindsey Buckingham solo

627
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 1: record inside of a Fleetwood Mac record, because like one

628
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 1: of their white album kind of thing where it's like

629
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 1: a bunch of different artists just separately bringing this kind

630
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:13,560
Speaker 1: of like alternates between like these kind of classic sounding

631
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 1: Fleetwood Max singles like Sarah, and then it would be

632
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 1: like sort of like a bizarre Lindsey Buckingham song, the Tusk,

633
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 1: the titles. I can't believe that song with a top

634
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 1: ten song or even like you know, so I think

635
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 1: it sounds like what makes you Think You're the One?

636
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 1: Which I always felt like, oh, like that's like a

637
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 1: modest mouse song, like but like twenty years before. You know,

638
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 1: there's like a lot of songs on that record, like

639
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 1: the Lindsey Buckingham songs that sound like indie rock. They

640
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 1: have like the kind of the production style of of

641
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 1: of indie rock because of the Brian Wilson thing, but

642
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 1: also because he was really into like the punk music

643
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 1: of that time. He was trying to punk album, doing

644
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 1: post punk record. I mean, I think the case for

645
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 1: Lindsey Buckingham is that he was the person most responsible

646
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 1: for guiding Fleetwood Mac creatively through that sort of golden

647
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 1: era from like eighties seven, like as a producer and

648
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 1: as a as an arranger of like other people's songs,

649
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 1: and even on the song Silver Springs, the producer of

650
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 1: the record, I think it's the engineering can count he

651
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 1: talks about just like all of these like guitars, that

652
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 1: the acoustic one. They would bring him a new guitar

653
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 1: every twenty minutes because they wanted fresh strings. Yeah, he

654
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 1: kind of painstakingly over dubbed all of these great guitars,

655
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 1: and I mean, that's an amazing song by itself, but

656
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 1: like he really put a lot of care into like

657
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 1: making this song sound as good as it could. Even

658
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 1: with the fact that that song is about him, you

659
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 1: know that he was able to do that. So, you know,

660
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 1: as borish as Lindsey Buckingham could be towards Stevie Nixon

661
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 1: and I think he could be pretty awful to her,

662
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 1: he was I think the chief of that band, and

663
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 1: I think he was acknowledged as such during their most

664
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 1: commercially successful period. I think we would make it such

665
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:58,560
Speaker 1: a brand name now that maybe you can get rid

666
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 1: of Lindsay Buckingham and a lot of people don't care.

667
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 1: But I think for people that actually really love Fleetwood

668
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 1: Mac that is a pretty gaping hole. Here's a hypothetical too.

669
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:08,799
Speaker 1: I mean, what if when Nick Fleetwood in nineteen four

670
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:10,759
Speaker 1: went up to Lindsay and said, hey, you want to

671
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 1: you know, Bob Welsh, left leaning and new guitarist, you

672
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 1: want to join? He just said, yeah, sure, See Stevie,

673
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 1: how do you think history would have unfolded? I mean

674
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:19,759
Speaker 1: that the answer to the hypothetical is that they would

675
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 1: have not been nearly as successful without Stevie Nicks. I

676
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 1: think they would have sounded like America meets E L

677
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 1: O right, which would be an awesome would you be great?

678
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:30,120
Speaker 1: I mean, ye, wouldn't. I mean, I think they would

679
00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:32,360
Speaker 1: have made really cool records with Lindsey Buckingham. But I

680
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 1: think they would have been the kind of albums that

681
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:38,759
Speaker 1: people rediscover, you know, years later, in the same way

682
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:41,320
Speaker 1: that people do to the Bob Welch era and Danny

683
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 1: Kerwin era and you know, all the other Jeremy Spencer,

684
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 1: all those like early seventies Fleetwood Mac records that weren't

685
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:49,279
Speaker 1: that successful at the time, but now people call back

686
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:51,800
Speaker 1: and they're like, wow, these are these are amazing albums.

687
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 1: But you open the door to the pro Stevie argument,

688
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 1: and I think it's a much more obvious argument than

689
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 1: Lindsey Buckingham one. I mean, she is the star Fleetwood Mac,

690
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 1: and I think that has really become I think that

691
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:06,240
Speaker 1: was true in the seventies and eighties, you know, because

692
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:08,279
Speaker 1: a lot of the biggest hits were sung by Stevie Nicks,

693
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:10,719
Speaker 1: and she also had the biggest solo career. As I said,

694
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:12,279
Speaker 1: you do a side by side of their solo career,

695
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 1: it's you know, you can't even compare, You can't even compare.

696
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,440
Speaker 1: I mean Lindsey Buckingham, I think, you know, in his defense,

697
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:22,799
Speaker 1: was doing something I think consciously different from Fleetwood Mac.

698
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 1: He was kind of doing like weirder stuff on his

699
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 1: solo records, Like if you listen to like Go Insane,

700
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,000
Speaker 1: that's that Lindsey Buckingham record which I think came out

701
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:35,480
Speaker 1: it was like early eight You compare that to like Mirage,

702
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:38,839
Speaker 1: Like Mirage is like a much more straight ahead pop

703
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:42,439
Speaker 1: rock record, and then on his solo records he's doing

704
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,720
Speaker 1: these sort of more bizarre experimental stuff and the interesting

705
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 1: thing is go Insane. He's a breakup album too. He

706
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 1: had just broken up with his girlfriend in the eighties,

707
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 1: the one who wrote a memoir recently, Sherry. I can't

708
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 1: remember now, but but yeah, that was. He did a

709
00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:00,120
Speaker 1: big profile on the Rolling Stone, like Lindsey Buckingham lowly

710
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:02,279
Speaker 1: guy or something. That's the headline for it. That's a

711
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,239
Speaker 1: that's a great profile. I forget the lead exactly what

712
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,839
Speaker 1: it talks about. Like he's a great looking, rich guy,

713
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 1: but he's like miserable, you know, and he's like living

714
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 1: in this huge house in the mostly. I feel like

715
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 1: his default state is miserable. Yeah, I mean, like I said,

716
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,799
Speaker 1: like when I saw him live, he was such an

717
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:24,839
Speaker 1: electric presence, in part because there was something about him

718
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:27,759
Speaker 1: that seemed unsettled. You know, that he wasn't just like

719
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 1: the typical rock star in his sixties who's kind of

720
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:33,719
Speaker 1: done it all and knows he can just phone it in.

721
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:37,239
Speaker 1: I didn't get that sense from him. And also the

722
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:39,879
Speaker 1: fact that he was playing this high school auditorium, because

723
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 1: he had this speech about it at the beginning where

724
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:45,640
Speaker 1: he talked about Fleetwood Mac being this big machine and

725
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:47,719
Speaker 1: that in his solo career he kind of liked to

726
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 1: be more almost like an indie rocker type guy, to

727
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 1: kind of step outside the machine. I mean, ultimately that

728
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:57,759
Speaker 1: might have also led to his firing from Fleetwood Mac,

729
00:36:57,800 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 1: because it seemed like he was kind of holding the

730
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:02,120
Speaker 1: band hostage at times for you know, wanting to do

731
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,320
Speaker 1: his own solo tours and that would prevent And that

732
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:06,439
Speaker 1: was the official reason that the band kind of gave

733
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:08,319
Speaker 1: for why that was that he wanted to hold up

734
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 1: their tour. It's solo stuff. It's like Lindsey wants to

735
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 1: play high school auditoriums. Meanwhile, we want to make a

736
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:17,120
Speaker 1: billion dollars on the road. This guy is holding us back.

737
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 1: So fuck this guy will go hire Mike Campbell and

738
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:23,440
Speaker 1: Neil Finn. That always blew me away, like how he

739
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 1: ended up in Fleetwood Mac. I can I can get

740
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 1: Mike Campbell because he's a guitar player, he's from you know,

741
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 1: he's part of that l A rock scene. Obviously, he

742
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,359
Speaker 1: has a history with Stevie Nicks through Tom Petty Tom

743
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 1: Petty Um. But Neil Finn that just seemed like totally random.

744
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:39,520
Speaker 1: I don't know how the hell he ended up in

745
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:42,720
Speaker 1: the band, because I think they actually played like crowded

746
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 1: house songs on that tour, So I did like ringing

747
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:47,800
Speaker 1: the all star band style or brought in his I

748
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 1: think they did like Don't Dream It's Over, Okay. I

749
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 1: don't think they were going to like wood Face Deep Cuts,

750
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:55,440
Speaker 1: by the way, wood Face, that's a shout out for

751
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:58,839
Speaker 1: our card and house listeners. Oh my god, that's good album,

752
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:01,440
Speaker 1: by the way. So what is the case? And I

753
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:04,560
Speaker 1: think we've articulated this already. Fort Stevie and lindsay to

754
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 1: kind of exist in harmony, you know, like how do

755
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 1: they how do they ultimately complement each other? The band

756
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 1: Fleetwood Mac. I think their identity is wrapped up so

757
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:19,320
Speaker 1: much in the disharmony and dysfunction between those two. You know,

758
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:20,880
Speaker 1: as you said earlier, like what would the band have

759
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:23,279
Speaker 1: been without them, Probably would have been as they had

760
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 1: been in the early seventies as just sort of a

761
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:29,880
Speaker 1: you know, a britt blues curio. Um. I think so

762
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:32,400
Speaker 1: much of their identity is tied up in them together,

763
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:35,320
Speaker 1: and there are there are a few or their complicated

764
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:38,400
Speaker 1: relationship and yeah, and and it gives an edge to

765
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:40,919
Speaker 1: their music it wouldn't have otherwise. I mean, a friend

766
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:44,719
Speaker 1: of mine recently described Fleetwood Mac as yacht rock, and

767
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 1: I got into an argument with him because I was, like,

768
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 1: the thing with Fleetwood Mac is that even if their

769
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:52,920
Speaker 1: music is kind of soft, there's nothing smooth about Fleetmod

770
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 1: Like Fleetwood Mac has always had this sort of rock

771
00:38:56,680 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 1: and roll credibility because of the tumultuous nature of their history.

772
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:04,640
Speaker 1: There's fire there. There's like, you know, they might be

773
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:08,400
Speaker 1: beautiful pop songs, but like there's nothing sort of like

774
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 1: contrived about it or manufactured. Like it's very raw emotionally,

775
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 1: and it's drawn from like real heavy stuff that they

776
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:20,080
Speaker 1: sing about in a very sort of authentic way. And

777
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 1: they obviously have lived it, you know, well past the

778
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:27,880
Speaker 1: fact of those hits, you know, and that's none more

779
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 1: true than with Lindsey Buckingham and Stevie Nicks. You know,

780
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 1: they still are hating each other, which also makes me

781
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 1: think that they must also seriously, like really lust that

782
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 1: for each other in some way too. You feel like

783
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 1: that fire is there too, if they if they still

784
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 1: can get it up to have this sort of rancor,

785
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 1: then they must be able to get it up in

786
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:53,400
Speaker 1: other ways. If we can. If I may put it

787
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:57,319
Speaker 1: somewhat indelicately. You know, there's a real passion that still

788
00:39:57,360 --> 00:39:59,719
Speaker 1: exists with them, and I just hope that it's not

789
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 1: the end. I hope that there is some sort of

790
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 1: way to get them back in the same band where

791
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:08,200
Speaker 1: they can barely tolerate each other for another you know,

792
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 1: however many years Hey, now, hey, now, don't dream it off.

793
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:18,840
Speaker 1: In the words of in the words of Fleetwood. So okay,

794
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 1: I think again. I think that's the big thing. Stevie lindsay,

795
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:24,880
Speaker 1: get back together. Keep hating each other for us at Rivals.

796
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:26,880
Speaker 1: I think we'd appreciate it. We need we need you

797
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:30,200
Speaker 1: to keep hate each other. I hate each other together,

798
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:34,279
Speaker 1: hate each other together. Please all right? Well, I feel

799
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:36,359
Speaker 1: like we could talk about this forever. Oh this, Yeah,

800
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 1: I don't want this one to stop, but I feel

801
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 1: like we have to wrap it up. So this has

802
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 1: been Rivals, and it's always fun in Jordan's talking with you,

803
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:47,320
Speaker 1: and uh, we'll talk to you again next week. Thank you, Sarah.

804
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:58,840
Speaker 1: I always a blast, all right, Take care. Rivals is

805
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:01,319
Speaker 1: a production of My Heart Radio. The executive producers are

806
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:04,399
Speaker 1: Shawn Tytone and Noel Brown. We're supervising producers are Taylor

807
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:07,400
Speaker 1: Chacogne and Tristan McNeil. I'm Jordan's Run Talk and I'm

808
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:09,720
Speaker 1: Stephen Hyden. If you like what you heard, please subscribe

809
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:11,759
Speaker 1: to leave us a review from more podcasts from my

810
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

811
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:17,080
Speaker 1: or ever you listen to your favorite shows