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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: It's important to me to correct those misconceptions. They've been

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Speaker 2: going on almost since We're body was fout.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the

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Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,

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Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken

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Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down

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Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,

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Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true

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Speaker 1: crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both

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Speaker 1: good and bad, and it's a deep into the unpublished

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Speaker 1: details behind their stories. One of the most enduring mysteries

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Speaker 1: in crime history is the horrible murder of Elizabeth Short.

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Speaker 1: The Black Dahlia case has been told over and over again,

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Speaker 1: including by Paul and me on Buried Bones, but author

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Speaker 1: William J. Mann has taken a different angle, and I

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Speaker 1: really like it. He's written a deeply researched victim forward

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Speaker 1: book about Elizabeth, her life, her struggles, and her death.

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Speaker 1: But his focus is right where it's supposed to be

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Speaker 1: on her. William tells me about his new book, Black Dahlia, Murder,

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Speaker 1: Monsters and Madness in mid Century Hollywoodly surprised. I have

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Speaker 1: a true crime podcast class at the University of Texas,

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Speaker 1: so of course it's filled with twenty something year olds

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Speaker 1: and I often ask how many of you have heard

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Speaker 1: of the Black Dahlia Case, And most of them have

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Speaker 1: heard it in some capacity. So what do you think

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Speaker 1: before we get into the life of Elizabeth Short, what

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Speaker 1: do you think is that that makes this endure for people,

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Speaker 1: that makes people fascinated by the case. Is it the

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Speaker 1: brutality or is it the mystery behind Elizabeth Short or

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Speaker 1: just the lore.

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Speaker 2: I think it's a combination of things. You know, the

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Speaker 2: original detectives surmise of the continuing fascination with the case

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Speaker 2: was because of two things. One, the severity on the

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Speaker 2: brutality of the crime, that there's nothing really you can

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Speaker 2: compare to that, and so that's scathing people's mind. But

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Speaker 2: also because this moniker that was put on the links

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Speaker 2: for Short, the Black Dahlia nickname that was never given

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Speaker 2: to her in life, it only came in death. It

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Speaker 2: made her into some sort of mythological creature, you know,

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Speaker 2: who walks by night, who you know, was working with

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Speaker 2: sinister men and the shadows. And it becomes in many

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Speaker 2: ways the troupe or Bill Noir. You know, so many films,

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Speaker 2: the nineteen boys and nine and fifty's have some shadow

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Speaker 2: of the Black Dollar case, you know, whether he you

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Speaker 2: know'st the tall or innocent victim ortalized by the Wicked City,

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Speaker 2: it's there, and so it becomes part of pop culture. Really,

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Speaker 2: black Dahlia becomes more than just this case. It becomes

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Speaker 2: a symbol of Hollywood's dark underground. And and I think

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Speaker 2: that's really why today people still know the black Dahlia,

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Speaker 2: not because of a woman involved. They don't know who

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Speaker 2: was short, but they know that something happened back in

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Speaker 2: those days in Hollywood in which this creature called the

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Speaker 2: Black Dahlia was moving through the night. Sometimes they actually

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Speaker 2: think the Black Doahlia was the killer, you know, they

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Speaker 2: think that's that's you know, oh, the black Dolli is

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Speaker 2: going to get you. But that's just how this name

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Speaker 2: has seeked in public imagination.

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Speaker 1: It's a little like Frankenstein. I think my kids started

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Speaker 1: reading Frankenstein and said, wait what, doctor Franken, I don't

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Speaker 1: understand it. I said, yeah, that's a great point.

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Speaker 2: Yeah exactly.

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Speaker 1: People don't know. One thing that I that I like

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Speaker 1: about your book is that, you know, I have always

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Speaker 1: felt that Black Dahlia was sort of meant to be

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Speaker 1: this scary, cautionary tale about young women finding their way

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Speaker 1: to Hollywood and being not modest enough and putting themselves

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Speaker 1: out there too much, and you know, like a just

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Speaker 1: be a good girl sort of lesson. I think you

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Speaker 1: really turned that on its head because you're not focusing

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Speaker 1: necessarily on the crime. You have theories of the crime,

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Speaker 1: but you're focusing more on Elizabeth as a person, which

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Speaker 1: I think is a really fresh take.

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Speaker 2: Yes, thank you. I intended to tell the story of

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Speaker 2: the victim rather than the killer. I wanted to find

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Speaker 2: the victim more than I wanted to find the killer.

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Speaker 2: But even using the word victim to describe Elisabeth Short

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Speaker 2: was so inadequate, because you know, she was far more

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Speaker 2: than a victim. She was brtally murdered, and you know

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Speaker 2: sheans victimized by this horrible event, but you know, she

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Speaker 2: was someone who had far more agency than most people

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Speaker 2: ever have given her. Credit before she leaves her small

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Speaker 2: town in New England to go find something. She wasn't

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Speaker 2: really looking for anything except for adventure. She had a

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Speaker 2: wanderlo She want the steep places, she wanted to meet people,

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Speaker 2: She wanted to just experience different cities. She tried Miami, Chicago, Indianapolis,

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Speaker 2: and then went to Los Angeles. And I just don't

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Speaker 2: see her as this cautionary tale because she wasn't. Of course,

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Speaker 2: she took risks, right, she took risks. Everybody takes risks.

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Speaker 2: If you want to live in the world, you take risks.

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Speaker 2: So for me, the cautionary tale is more about how

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Speaker 2: do we how do we respond to tragedies such as this?

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Speaker 2: You know, how does the media respond to this? How

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Speaker 2: does the media keep the humanity of the victim front

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Speaker 2: and center? You know, it's not Elizabeth doing something outrageous

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Speaker 2: or terribly dangerous. That's not the cautionary tale that I see.

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Speaker 1: And also to me, it's in the forties. It's the

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Speaker 1: you all should be married, right, well, you know this

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Speaker 1: wouldn't have happened if her fiance hadn't been killed the pilot,

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Speaker 1: and she would have been happily married. And we don't

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Speaker 1: know any of this, but but but it is that, like,

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Speaker 1: this is what happens when you're a bad girl, and

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Speaker 1: she is framed throughout history as the finn fetale, I mean,

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Speaker 1: a slut, the whole thing.

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Speaker 2: Right, Oh yeah, And as you mentioned in the book.

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Speaker 1: And then I really do want to get into the

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Speaker 1: story as you mentioned in the book, where you have

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Speaker 1: investigators essentially saying, well, she was a tease and she

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Speaker 1: just pushed some poor demented man too far right, you know,

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Speaker 1: which is still something we certainly sometimes we get hints of,

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Speaker 1: and also very blatantly here about today's victims, women, women

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Speaker 1: and men, frankly, you know, being blamed for their own deaths.

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Speaker 2: It's just outrageous. And e Lizabeth had that right very start. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you know, right from the moment there my body was found,

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Speaker 2: well started saying, you know, what was she doing? Did

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Speaker 2: she share some of the blame withns? Even a newspaper

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Speaker 2: runs an articles and asking what's the block dollar? It's

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Speaker 2: a blame, yeah, And it's just it's outrageous and the

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Speaker 2: fact that nobody's ever previously kind of looked at that

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Speaker 2: with these eyes. I realized earlier on that's what I

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Speaker 2: had to do.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about Elizabeth. Where does it make sense

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Speaker 1: for you? Where you know how she grew up. She

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Speaker 1: had a very complicated family. I don't know if you

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Speaker 1: want to start there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know. She was the middle daughter of five.

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Speaker 2: Her father was in miniature golf installer. So this has

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Speaker 2: been the nineteen twenties. It's miniature golf wasn't what it

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Speaker 2: is today. It was actually an actual golf course, but

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Speaker 2: it was just a tiny little fraction of what you

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Speaker 2: get if you're actually playing around the golf and became

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Speaker 2: very popular and he would install them in places in

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Speaker 2: our cities and he was making good money at that.

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Speaker 2: But then comes to the depression and he loses all its money,

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Speaker 2: and what he does is he takes all of his

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Speaker 2: savings and leaves disappears, leaving his wife with five little

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Speaker 2: girls to raise them on our home. So at that

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Speaker 2: point they have to move around the various place seems

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Speaker 2: to try to keep that rent down. Elizabeth's mother, TV

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Speaker 2: Short was a remarkable woman and just so determined to

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Speaker 2: keep her daughters safe and bed school. She was she

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Speaker 2: had to work, She had to go out to work,

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Speaker 2: and that bothered her because she didn't think oligious. One moment,

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Speaker 2: she felt that, you know, women should be home nurturing

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Speaker 2: the children, but she had no choice. She taught her

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Speaker 2: daughters that their destiny was in her own hands, that

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Speaker 2: they couldn't rely on a man to do that they

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Speaker 2: had to find ways to survive in the world. And

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Speaker 2: that I believe Elizabeth absorbed. She really took that to heart.

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Speaker 2: She knew that. So when Elizabeth decided to drop out

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Speaker 2: at school and go away in the wintertime because she

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Speaker 2: had pasthma and she cold what it made her difficult

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Speaker 2: to breathe, her mother trusted her. She knew she had

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Speaker 2: she had sense, she knew that she could go do that.

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Speaker 2: And you know, I think Elizabeth's her confidence comes from

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Speaker 2: her mother. So I think her wife nderlust came from

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Speaker 2: her father. Because she was sitting there in Medford looking

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Speaker 2: out of this small town and she was growing up

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Speaker 2: in and she imagined her father living ree and easy, somewhere,

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Speaker 2: an exploring place. She didn't understand that he had abandoned

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Speaker 2: the family. Her mother always never spoke badly about him,

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Speaker 2: So Elizabeth wanted to find her father. She wanted to

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Speaker 2: live the life of carefree, moving from place.

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Speaker 1: Now, what about the story that he had apparently kind

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Speaker 1: of set up a supposed suicide so that that would

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Speaker 1: really make him vanish. Is there a credibility to that.

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Speaker 2: The newspapers do say that they suspected that because they

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Speaker 2: found his car near a river and you know, perhaps

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Speaker 2: taken his life because he was being fallen into bankruptcy.

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Speaker 2: Elizabeth's mother never believed that. She knew that he had

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Speaker 2: taken off because she saw the money he had taken

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Speaker 2: out of their bank account. She knew he was somewhere

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Speaker 2: in the world. And I don't then that the daughter's

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Speaker 2: never believe that he was. They knew he was out

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Speaker 2: there somewhere and that maybe one day we would come back.

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Speaker 1: Now was she close? Was Elizabeth close to her four

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Speaker 1: sisters or was she just sort of the black sheep

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Speaker 1: and a completely different type of girl than they were.

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Speaker 2: She was actually very close to her sisters. I was

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Speaker 2: very fortunate to find in the Medford Historical Society interviews

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Speaker 2: with Elizabeth's younger youngest sister, Muriel, and Muriel was she

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Speaker 2: shared so many stories about like Elizabeth, you know, when

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Speaker 2: she was still going to get home and when Muriel

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Speaker 2: and the other sister, the younger sisters would be getting

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Speaker 2: ready for school. It was Elizabeth and took them to

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Speaker 2: buy them pencil boxes and you know, notepads, and for

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Speaker 2: school because her mother was working every day to keep

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Speaker 2: you know, keep the roof over their heads, so they

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Speaker 2: had door toys. But Elizabeth was she loved stray dogs,

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Speaker 2: and she'd be rescuing stray dogs and bringing them into

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Speaker 2: her room at the house and paying for mother. But well,

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Speaker 2: he's cold. We don't want to get rid of them.

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Speaker 2: Durl Muriel's letters and interviews, which I'm so fortunate to find.

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Speaker 2: I really got a sense of Coolizabeth was that kind

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Speaker 2: of basic compassion that she had and the empathy she had.

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Speaker 1: So has no one else used those letters from Muriel

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Speaker 1: that you know of.

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Speaker 2: No one has. They were taken by Mary Passios, who

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Speaker 2: wrote a memoir of Elizabeth several years back, but she

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Speaker 2: didn't use any of it. She kind of referenced them

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Speaker 2: a little bit, but she never actually used the letters.

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Speaker 2: But she donated them thankfully to Metre Historical Society. So

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Speaker 2: reading through them, I just got into wonderful pictures of

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Speaker 2: coolness for short looks.

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Speaker 1: You know, now I'm going to deviate to or the

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Speaker 1: philosophy behind other authors who have written about Elizabeth Short,

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Speaker 1: and there have been many, including a couple of very

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Speaker 1: prominent ones. So do you think the idea of leaving

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Speaker 1: out people like Muriel, who you have scooped up and

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Speaker 1: put into this wonderful portrait of a murder victim. Do

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Speaker 1: you think that that was intentionally left out because it

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Speaker 1: would it would take away from the allure of you know,

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Speaker 1: the sexual deviant, the whatever is that sort of like

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Speaker 1: odd intersection of fantasy and violence and sexual violence. Do

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Speaker 1: you think that's why things? I don't want to accuse

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Speaker 1: anybody of anything, but why not put that kind of

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Speaker 1: stuff in?

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, it's possible they didn't know these letters existed.

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure when Mary Passios donated it, but I

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Speaker 2: do think even without them, there are other ways to

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Speaker 2: do that. There's been very very little focus on rulisbith Was.

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Speaker 2: You know, she basically turns up, you know, in the

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Speaker 2: first scene of the book, and you know, as a corpse,

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Speaker 2: and then and then it becomes the investigation, then it

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Speaker 2: becomes the media surface around her death. So I think

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Speaker 2: Elizabeth's story has to begin with her arrival in California

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Speaker 2: and why she did that. And if you lose that out,

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Speaker 2: if you don't have those months of her moving from

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Speaker 2: place to place, that's what that's the first third of

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Speaker 2: my book. You don't get her as a person, and

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Speaker 2: that is so vital for telling the story.

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Speaker 1: Remind me of her age. And then what's her first stop?

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Speaker 1: Where does she go after she tells her mom, listen,

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Speaker 1: I'm done with school and I need to figure out

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Speaker 1: who I am.

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Speaker 2: Right. This is when she meets in nineteen forty six.

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Speaker 2: It's the summer of nineteen forty six, and previously she'd

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Speaker 2: been to Florida during the winter. She stayed with family friends.

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Speaker 2: That's where she met for fiance Matt Gordon, who by

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Speaker 2: this point has recently been killed an accident, not during combat,

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Speaker 2: but in an accident at one of the news bases.

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Speaker 2: And she's just ready to go find something else for herself.

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Speaker 2: She does have a letter from a young man that

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Speaker 2: she date it briefly and when she met him in Florida,

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Speaker 2: Gordon Fickling, and he's in Long Beach and stationed in

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Speaker 2: Long Beach, and she tells her mother, I'm going to

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Speaker 2: go out and see him, and she maybe we're going

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Speaker 2: to get married. Well, Gordon never intended to marry her,

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Speaker 2: but he was. He didn't care for he a great deal.

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Speaker 2: So she goes out to California to meet him, but

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Speaker 2: first stops in meeting Midianapolis, and then she stops in Chicago.

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Speaker 2: She spent that being at each place and makes friends

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Speaker 2: and sees the sights, and it's enjoying the trip out there.

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Speaker 2: So right there it tells us she really wasn't rushing

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Speaker 2: out to see Gordon. She was just on a way

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Speaker 2: of her own adventure. So she does eventually arrive in

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Speaker 2: Long Beach in July of nineteen twenty six, and Gordon

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Speaker 2: Picklan gets her apartment, seeing each other when he's not flying,

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Speaker 2: and in the meantime, she starts to explore luggage on

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Speaker 2: the pipe, which is where all these musical parts were.

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Speaker 2: So right away she's into exploring the places and people

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Speaker 2: forward meeting people. And I see that as myself when

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Speaker 2: I get to New Town, I'd like to just start explore,

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Speaker 2: going like what's this nearbor? Like what's this over here?

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Speaker 2: And that's what she was doing.

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Speaker 1: She well, knowing what you know about Elizabeth, I want

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Speaker 1: to go backwards a little bit, back to Matt Gordon

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Speaker 1: because you know, I felt like I've read a decent

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Speaker 1: amount about her, and I was thinking, this seems like

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Speaker 1: such a different relationship than what we hear about later on,

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Speaker 1: which I feel like have always been framed as very

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Speaker 1: transactional relationships with men, And I want for you to

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Speaker 1: either confirm or dispel those things, as you know, as

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Speaker 1: we talk about the people she's been involved with going forward.

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Speaker 1: Matt seemed different to me. She was on a road

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Speaker 1: that I wonder if you think would have worked out

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Speaker 1: had he not been killed. I mean, she's engaged to

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Speaker 1: somebody and she's writing, you have a wonderful quote about

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Speaker 1: you know, he talks about flying and she says I

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Speaker 1: want to be in the s GUIs too, And you know,

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Speaker 1: she just seems like a different person than what six

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Speaker 1: months later or a year later. I mean, things go

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Speaker 1: so quickly for this woman.

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Speaker 2: So tell me what you think.

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Speaker 1: About that relationship with Matt Gordon and was this going

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Speaker 1: to be something that could endure.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's hard to say. When I first approached this story,

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Speaker 2: you know, I'd read about Matt Gordon and I assumed

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Speaker 2: it was this this you know, very intense, you know,

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Speaker 2: lobbing relationship, and it may have been. But in fact,

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Speaker 2: as Matt Gordon's mother points out, he and Elizabeth only

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Speaker 2: had one date. They met once, and you know, so

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Speaker 2: I put that into perspective. This is the wartime, and

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Speaker 2: young men flying off to the war like to know

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Speaker 2: they had a woman. And I'm waiting for them, you know,

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Speaker 2: somebody to come home to. Will you wait for me?

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Speaker 2: And it's in movies all the time. You see those,

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Speaker 2: you know, those scenes and will wait for me. I'll

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Speaker 2: be home. I'll wait for you, darl I think Elizabeth

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Speaker 2: cared for him and liked him, and I think she

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Speaker 2: was caught up in the romance. You know, I'm waiting

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Speaker 2: for this flier, and when she learns that he's been killed,

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Speaker 2: I don't doubt that she breathed. I'm sure she breathed

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Speaker 2: for him. She had wonderful memories of him. They had exchanged,

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Speaker 2: you know, dozens of letters in that time, so they

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Speaker 2: got to know each other in that way. They hadn't

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Speaker 2: spent much physical time together. But that doesn't mean she

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Speaker 2: didn't three either, But I also think she was I

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Speaker 2: don't know, is it possible that she was more in

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Speaker 2: love with love than she was with Matt Gordon. I

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Speaker 2: don't know it's possible. I know that he had Bobera

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Speaker 2: ring and the ring was given to her doing one

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Speaker 2: of his friends, but then there's no mention of the

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Speaker 2: ring afterward ever, And I have to wonder if she

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Speaker 2: pund it to get money to go across country. Again,

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Speaker 2: I don't that shouldn't suggest that she could agree with them.

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Speaker 2: I know she did, yeah, but I wonder if it

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Speaker 2: wasn't you know, the great romance that sometimes tried to

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Speaker 2: think apart.

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Speaker 1: But see this is why if you listen to her,

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Speaker 1: or watch the episode that Paul Holes and I did

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Speaker 1: about Black Dahlia, then you must go read this book,

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Speaker 1: because you know the way that I had read that

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Speaker 1: without knowing from you that this was a very short

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Speaker 1: relationship where they did get to know each other. But

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Speaker 1: this was not like some high school you know, love

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Speaker 1: of five years, and she was penning all her hopes

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Speaker 1: on him. It to me felt very much like I

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Speaker 1: wonder if she felt abandoned after Matt's death, the way

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Speaker 1: she may have felt abandoned by her father when he left.

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Speaker 1: Maybe I was overreaching there. Maybe that's not really what happened.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's again it's hard to say, can't inside

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Speaker 2: her head, but you know we know that after he dies,

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Speaker 2: she does right to Matt's family and asks for some

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Speaker 2: money and the money and the family doesn't like that,

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Speaker 2: but you know, look she was. It's Beyonce, you know.

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Speaker 2: And you know his letters to his mothers. He's gushing over.

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Speaker 2: He's saying like, oh, she's wonderful, and I think she

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Speaker 2: really likes me. And when I come home, I'm going

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Speaker 2: to stop the Medford or you get married and I

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Speaker 2: bring her to me too. So you know, I don't

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Speaker 2: want to I don't want to say it was completely transactional,

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Speaker 2: but I do wonder so Matt's death. I looked into

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Speaker 2: his death and it was a very strange accident. It

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Speaker 2: was almost seemed as if he deliberately grounded the plane.

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Speaker 2: Now again that's just the observations of some of the

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Speaker 2: other men on the bags. And of course that says,

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Speaker 2: could she have broken up with him, said I'm not

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Speaker 2: going to get married. You know, whatever it was, she

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Speaker 2: did grieve them, and she did. You know, he was

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Speaker 2: somebody to whom she compared everybody else. You know that

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Speaker 2: nobody was going to be as good as that. From

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Speaker 2: that point out.

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Speaker 1: Now let's talk about because I know one of the

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Speaker 1: things besides dispelling myths about her, you know, you have

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Speaker 1: to own some things that she does going forward. Did

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Speaker 1: she say to people that she had lost her husband

359
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Speaker 1: or fiance, was it in an accident or the world?

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Speaker 1: Did she misrepresent anything about Matt Gordon to other people?

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Speaker 2: Oh, she certainly did. She certainly did, And and I'll

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Speaker 2: talk about what she did and no, no, try to

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Speaker 2: get inside her head maybe why she's doing that. So

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Speaker 2: you know, she did tell people that she she either

365
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Speaker 2: had a hero boyfriend who had been killed in the war.

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Speaker 2: That gave her perhaps some sympathy from people who never

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Speaker 2: she when she goes to San Diego and stays with

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Speaker 2: Dorothy and Eldner Branch, she says that they were make

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Speaker 2: and they had actually had a child who died. She

370
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Speaker 2: would often sometimes say that her fiance was a ward hero,

371
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Speaker 2: but he wasn't dead, and that also had a certain

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Speaker 2: effect for people. I believe that that she's doing this

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Speaker 2: largely as a way of self protection. You know, women

374
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Speaker 2: looking through the world on their own in nineteen forty six,

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Speaker 2: there needs to be some precautions. Women are so easily

376
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Speaker 2: could be so easily taken advantage of. And you know

377
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Speaker 2: when she signs her hotel Redinister, she always signs herself

378
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Speaker 2: a missing missing is always before that. You know, the

379
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Speaker 2: idea that there's a husband or a tance out there somewhere.

380
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Speaker 2: Jella's give her some protection, some some defense of self control.

381
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Speaker 2: You know this this idea that if she was just

382
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Speaker 2: a single woman wandering through the world without any attachments,

383
00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:54,359
Speaker 2: she probably felt and may have felt that it's easier

384
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Speaker 2: to take advantage of it. This was the same with

385
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Speaker 2: some of the friends. And she makes me a long

386
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Speaker 2: time with so Marjorie grab the same thing. Would you know,

387
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Speaker 2: would tell people, Hey, I've got a husband. She had

388
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Speaker 2: left them, but she let people know I have a husband.

389
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Speaker 2: And it's a sad thing that women have to do

390
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Speaker 2: this to kind of set up some way of feeling safe,

391
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Speaker 2: creating this safety net thing solves. So I yes, Elizabeth

392
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Speaker 2: did tell tall tales at times, but I think it

393
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Speaker 2: was it was usually because she needed only someone give

394
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Speaker 2: her some simpathy and help her out with something, or

395
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Speaker 2: also just to think herself safe. Well.

396
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Speaker 1: And the reality is is that married women in the

397
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Speaker 1: nineteen forties, no matter where you were in the country,

398
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Speaker 1: even La, which was fairly independent. Married women carried a

399
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Speaker 1: certain sort of upstanding, you know, a view that's right

400
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Speaker 1: in society. If she were married, no matter how young

401
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:51,840
Speaker 1: she were, she had made a commitmentp hopefully she had

402
00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:54,800
Speaker 1: been faithful. She had been planning to sell. So she

403
00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:57,560
Speaker 1: fit into what we were just talking about, which is

404
00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:01,119
Speaker 1: women who want to be with me for security and

405
00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:03,240
Speaker 1: be at home and take care of them. And there's

406
00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:06,000
Speaker 1: nothing wrong with that. The point was, I see that

407
00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,000
Speaker 1: even more than protection, more like, I fit into this

408
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:11,720
Speaker 1: part of society and that and that must have helped

409
00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,399
Speaker 1: her give her confidence at least maybe gave.

410
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Speaker 2: Her confidence, you know, when she when she moved in

411
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Speaker 2: Mark Hanson's house, they gave her some uh some protection

412
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:22,359
Speaker 2: that you know that there's a there's a there's a

413
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Speaker 2: serviceman out there who's very jealous. You know. So people

414
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,680
Speaker 2: say this and this, we'll talk about these and they say, wells,

415
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,240
Speaker 2: who's making up wise just so she can get a

416
00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:34,520
Speaker 2: man to buy her dinner. Well, sometimes that was the case,

417
00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:36,760
Speaker 2: but at the same time it was also sometimes to

418
00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:39,920
Speaker 2: keep herself safe and keep herself give herself the kind

419
00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:43,359
Speaker 2: of as you're saying, the kind of status that she

420
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Speaker 2: she would require to move through society.

421
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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, and would explain why she's traveling from place

422
00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:51,040
Speaker 1: to place, and it just would make it. It would

423
00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:53,879
Speaker 1: make her more acceptable, is what I would think. Okay,

424
00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:56,760
Speaker 1: exactly exactly, So tell me what happens. I know she

425
00:22:56,840 --> 00:23:00,080
Speaker 1: goes to Indianapolis, she goes to Chicago and win. How

426
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Speaker 1: does she get to la and how does that all

427
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:03,080
Speaker 1: start to work out?

428
00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:05,400
Speaker 2: A few weeks, you know, there's three weeks. I don't

429
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,399
Speaker 2: remember exactly, think about three weeks. She is getting a

430
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,359
Speaker 2: little tired of the log each and she wants to

431
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:16,080
Speaker 2: get to Los Angeles and she meets her friend Marjorie Graham,

432
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:20,480
Speaker 2: and Gordon takes her to Los Angeles because she wants

433
00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:22,399
Speaker 2: to go up there. And she meets her friend margin

434
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:26,040
Speaker 2: Grand who she knows him Boston, and Margine said, hey,

435
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:27,639
Speaker 2: you know, you can move in with me, and you

436
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:31,119
Speaker 2: know we can sum around together. And Elizabeth that's more

437
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:33,720
Speaker 2: appealing to hers, but at that point and staying with Gordon,

438
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,760
Speaker 2: So she and Gordon split, not on bad terms, but

439
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 2: not entirely amicably. I think Gordon would have liked her

440
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:43,560
Speaker 2: sort of stuck around a little longer, but he also says,

441
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:45,640
Speaker 2: you know, well you're kind of pickle. You know, maybe

442
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:47,720
Speaker 2: you don't really know what you want yet. Gordon Pickling

443
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:49,680
Speaker 2: was a really good guy. He said, if that's what

444
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:53,240
Speaker 2: you want. So so she then moves in with Marjorie

445
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:58,119
Speaker 2: Graham and they become a pair of explorers themselves. You know,

446
00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:01,200
Speaker 2: mar Marjorie's always got a job, so Marjorie's paying bills.

447
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:03,439
Speaker 2: But you know, if they go out to the clubs

448
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:06,680
Speaker 2: and walk around town and meet people, sit at lunch

449
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 2: counters together. So right there, I think Elizabeth is finally

450
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 2: doing what she wants to do, hanging out with her

451
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:13,920
Speaker 2: friend and seeing the city.

452
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:21,440
Speaker 1: What are the employment opportunities in the nineteen forties in

453
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 1: LA I have primarily worked like you in the nineteen

454
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,359
Speaker 1: twenties in La where it was like showgirl, right, what

455
00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:28,440
Speaker 1: were the opportunities?

456
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,439
Speaker 2: It was probably unlikely that Elizabeth had get a job

457
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 2: as a secretary because she pipe, you know, she don't

458
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:37,679
Speaker 2: make two years of high school. Marjorie Graham worked as

459
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 2: as a saleswoman in a couple of apartment stores drug stores.

460
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:47,639
Speaker 2: She also worked as a babysitter for a welcome couple.

461
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 2: I think she worked greeting as a waitress and restaurant

462
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,240
Speaker 2: and Elizabeth could have done any of those jobs, you know,

463
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,440
Speaker 2: those kinds of jobs. And Marjorie, I think from talking

464
00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 2: to her family, I think she was a affecting that

465
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:02,920
Speaker 2: Elizabeth would get one of those jobs and that she

466
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:06,160
Speaker 2: wouldn't have to be pulling her rand helping her buy food.

467
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:10,040
Speaker 2: But Elizabeth didn't. And you know, people say, well she was,

468
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 2: she was coasting for a gring ride. Yeah she was,

469
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:14,879
Speaker 2: and can't and all that, but I think there's far

470
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 2: worse things that in the Bodle could do. You know,

471
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 2: she you know, Margie was paying to build and I'll

472
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 2: take care of it for you. Well they're like, sure, great,

473
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 2: why not? So Elizabeth never gets a job. She later

474
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,960
Speaker 2: on tells and talks that she has a job at

475
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:31,440
Speaker 2: Western Airlines, but you know, she never really did have

476
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,639
Speaker 2: a job, and that's in some ways, well good for her,

477
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 2: And again as like saying good for her, because you know,

478
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:42,879
Speaker 2: if you there's so many stories of young men who

479
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 2: go out to search for themselves, right, and they get

480
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 2: by on telling tall tales and they're charmed and they're

481
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 2: wit and oh I got them to buy me something

482
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,920
Speaker 2: because I you know, I sugarcoated them and smooth talk

483
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 2: them and they're not criticized or you know, condemned in

484
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 2: the way that women do that. So you know, I

485
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:03,399
Speaker 2: really think we out to see her as Thomas Sawyer

486
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 2: and go off, I'm going to get this guy to

487
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:07,200
Speaker 2: do this for me, and I don't have to do that.

488
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 2: So you know, she's twenty two, that's awesome, and she's coach,

489
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 2: starting with friends, and I know a lot of twenty

490
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:14,119
Speaker 2: two year old Oh, don't have.

491
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:16,400
Speaker 1: A job and the couch her with friends, bro wife,

492
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 1: So you know, I mean so much of this is

493
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:20,120
Speaker 1: when you read books like this and you read about

494
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:23,399
Speaker 1: victims who have been so called controversial in the past.

495
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 1: You know, I think you a lot of times you

496
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 1: view this stuff through and the details of their lives

497
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:31,480
Speaker 1: through your own perspective. And what I was thinking about

498
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 1: that when you know she's sort of taking advantage If

499
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:36,960
Speaker 1: we just start focused on Marjorie, a woman, she's not

500
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 1: sleeping with, we assume, and you know she's just sort

501
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:43,400
Speaker 1: of it is taking advantage of her. I often thought, well,

502
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 1: a man one of five girls who you have to

503
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 1: assume had tremendous responsibility, probably before her father even left,

504
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,960
Speaker 1: you know, or whatever. But after two I could see,

505
00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 1: you know, I have people in my life who have

506
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 1: had that tremendous amount of responsibility when they're young, and

507
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:03,680
Speaker 1: when they get older they just kind of go, I

508
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:05,399
Speaker 1: need a break, I need a break. I need No,

509
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:07,359
Speaker 1: I don't want to answer to anybody. I want to

510
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 1: do exactly what I want to do. And I'm not

511
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 1: trying to look at this through rose colored glasses. I'm

512
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 1: just saying, there are other ways to look at these things.

513
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:15,399
Speaker 1: And it sounds like you've been doing that too a

514
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 1: lot with her.

515
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a really good insight. I wish I'd had

516
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:19,960
Speaker 2: it when I'm writing the book, because in fact, you're

517
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,359
Speaker 2: absolutely right. She had a tremendous amount of responsibility. Her

518
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 2: elder sister, Virginia, had gotten married and left the house,

519
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 2: and her second oldest sister was actually in the war,

520
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,359
Speaker 2: so Elizabeth was the oldest sister for a while and

521
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,440
Speaker 2: taking care of the two younger ones. And yeah, I

522
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,200
Speaker 2: could definitely see her saying, Okay, you know, it's always

523
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,640
Speaker 2: been about Nanny and the Muriel, and it's about time

524
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 2: that I take one, you know, put e Lizabeth first

525
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:46,879
Speaker 2: for a while. Yeah, there's no way she would have

526
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 2: continued to live this life if always say like, well,

527
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,040
Speaker 2: you know, would she have ever gotten a job? I

528
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 2: imagined she would have eventually.

529
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,879
Speaker 1: Or gotten married and not had to have or gotten.

530
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,200
Speaker 2: Married or gone home, right, right, But for this moment

531
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 2: of time, she is time. Now, That's what I hope

532
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 2: people see that this was a period of less than

533
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 2: six months, and so you know, let's give her a

534
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 2: six months and just go out and walk on.

535
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:12,399
Speaker 1: And I was also thinking too, you had mentioned that,

536
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 1: you know, Phoebe short, her mother was very religious, so

537
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 1: that was probably another layer of you know, be a

538
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 1: good girl, keep your ankles crossed, sit still. So the

539
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:27,440
Speaker 1: rebellion against that, and with her looks, you know, probably

540
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:29,639
Speaker 1: she could have been I don't know how far she

541
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 1: would have gone, but quote unquote discovered in Hollywood. So

542
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,879
Speaker 1: so yeah, And I think people don't keep in mind

543
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 1: this is such a short amount of time. I mean,

544
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:40,960
Speaker 1: this is not a woman who was floating around Hollywood

545
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 1: for years. This is like months, This is nothing.

546
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 2: And you know, it makes me think about the fact

547
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 2: that she knows and gets that tattoo on her thought.

548
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:52,120
Speaker 2: You know, I feel like that was right after her

549
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 2: father rejected her for the second time, and it was

550
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 2: I have to see it as some form of rebellion. Okay,

551
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 2: you think you think I'm a bad girl, I'll get

552
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 2: a tattoo. But again, I think it talks to what

553
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 2: you were just saying that she was. She had a

554
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 2: certain amount of set rules and structures that she had

555
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 2: to follow at home, and now she's on her own,

556
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 2: She's gonna push the end book a little bit.

557
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:17,479
Speaker 1: And we see that so much when you do research

558
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 1: in the twenties and thirties and the forties in Hollywood,

559
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 1: all of these young women coming and you know, rebelling

560
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 1: in different ways. I think of what, you know, when

561
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 1: I had written about the Fatty Arbuckle and you know,

562
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 1: Virginia Repay dying and he goes on Trafford Manslaughter in

563
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 1: nineteen twenty one, and just that the furvor around the

564
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 1: judgment against you know, people called her Virginia Repay a

565
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 1: B list actress, which is just like f off I mean,

566
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 1: come on, who's going to define that?

567
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 2: Right?

568
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 1: So so I think we see that this isn't you know,

569
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 1: Elizabeth Short is not the first person to come to

570
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 1: Hollywood and want to rebel. I do want to go

571
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,480
Speaker 1: back to her father. So I do know that she

572
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 1: recon with him. Tell me what the time period is.

573
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 1: I know there's a mention of the car being found

574
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 1: near a bridge. He vanishes. Phoebe never says, I think

575
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 1: he took his own life. What motivates Elizabeth? Does he

576
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 1: contact her eventually or does she contact him?

577
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 2: He comes back, and he comes back to Massachusetts and

578
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 2: he asks Phoebe to take him back, and she tells

579
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 2: him where good for her, good for her. But he

580
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:29,239
Speaker 2: you know, he meets his daughters. Some of them were

581
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 2: so young when he left, they didn't even know. And

582
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 2: Elizabeth was smitten, like, oh, this is the guy. If

583
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 2: you don't saying earlier, you know, look at him. He's

584
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:40,719
Speaker 2: traveling the country and he's going to all these Franks.

585
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 2: How exciting that much? And you know, she writes the

586
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 2: one after that and I come to California and you know,

587
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 2: I've got this asthma and he really needs me in

588
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 2: one more climate. And he says, all right, and send

589
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 2: her money for to come out. And and he's living

590
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 2: in Ballero at the time, and so Lizbeth comes and

591
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 2: stays with him for a very brief Bottify the queens

592
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 2: immediately is horrible to work. You know, he's always criticizing her.

593
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 2: I'm telling her she's sloppy and not kicking the house

594
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 2: queen that he started criticizing her for talking to so Man.

595
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 2: At this point, she's she's eighteen years old and she's

596
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 2: starting to just finally feel like an adult and he

597
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 2: kicks her out. She's get out of here, you know,

598
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 2: she doesn't know where to go. So she gets the

599
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 2: job at the PX camp work the war's still going on,

600
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 2: and from there she makes her way down to Santa

601
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,800
Speaker 2: Barbara and that's where she gets attached. So this is

602
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 2: nineteen forty three, and that's when the arrests were underage

603
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 2: drinking happens. And again when you look at the record,

604
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 2: Elizabeth wasn't underage drinking. She was just with some people

605
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 2: in a restaurant and they were drinking. But because they

606
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 2: found that Elizabeth was on the routine, they arrested her.

607
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 1: Well, so does she reconnect with her father after that

608
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 1: or is that it?

609
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 2: As far as we know, she does not. He moved

610
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 2: to Los Angeles, however, and when the murder occurs, the

611
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 2: police are very surprised to find that the father was

612
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:07,960
Speaker 2: living in Los Angeles, and they knew that there are

613
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 2: many times in this went you know, it didn't have

614
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 2: a place to stay I certain night, and they kept

615
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 2: saying that, wouldn't she have reached out to her father?

616
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 2: Maybe she did, but I find no record of it,

617
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 2: and idn't seemed likely that she would have.

618
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 1: Well, she doesn't want to be rejected yet again and.

619
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 2: Yet again a third time? Right exactly?

620
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 1: Well, remind me of it? Is it a butterfly? I

621
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 1: can't remember what the tattoo was. It's a rose, It's

622
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 1: a rose.

623
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 2: Yeah.

624
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 1: And I remember reading accounts where, you know, people would

625
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 1: comment that they felt like she was exposing it on

626
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 1: her leg as a sort of like a way to

627
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 1: tease men. And that was another part of it, you know,

628
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 1: that's part of the public shaming aspect of this. Again,

629
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 1: so it's speculation.

630
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. You know the policewoman who took her under

631
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 2: her wing after the arrest, she is the one where

632
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 2: that story starts with. And she said that she was

633
00:32:57,440 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 2: very proud of the tattoos. She liked it, she liked

634
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 2: it to show. And that's meetings much more childlike, you know, like,

635
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 2: oh look what I have this pretty rather than I'm

636
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 2: doing it to try to seduce you.

637
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 1: You know.

638
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's two different ways we've seeing that.

639
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 1: In one of my second season of tien Fulmore Wicked,

640
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 1: which was like a kind of a documentary series, I

641
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 1: cover the murders in Scotland by Birkenhair and you know

642
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 1: a pair of serial killers and one of them was

643
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 1: a woman who has forever and ever and ever been

644
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 1: framed as a sex worker. She wasn't, it turns out

645
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,360
Speaker 1: right at all? Now would it matter if she had

646
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 1: been or not?

647
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 2: No, of course not.

648
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:37,720
Speaker 1: And that's not what you're saying about Elizabeth Short either.

649
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 1: The point is let's be real about what happened and

650
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 1: don't take tidbits to create a profile of somebody who

651
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 1: did not exist. And so that is the point of

652
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 1: your book that I think is so lovely and though

653
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 1: we don't get enough of in true crime books or

654
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:54,240
Speaker 1: any content really.

655
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're right, And Elizabeth has been portrayed as a

656
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 2: sex worker, and she's been portrayed this you know, hang

657
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 2: out with gangsters and you know or that she was,

658
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 2: you know, she was this aspiring actress who would take

659
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:08,839
Speaker 2: do anything to get apart and none if that's true,

660
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 2: she wasn't any of those things, not that any of

661
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 2: those things is necessarily wrong or would have made her

662
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 2: her murder any any more horrible. So yeah, but as

663
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 2: you say, it was important to me some correct there's

664
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 2: misconception they've been going on almost since her body was found.

665
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:31,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, now we're approaching you know, what happens to her?

666
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:34,840
Speaker 1: Tell me about, you know, the kind of the people

667
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 1: in her life. I know that she at some point

668
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:41,360
Speaker 1: goes down to see the Frenches rite in San Diego

669
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:43,879
Speaker 1: and that doesn't go particularly well. Is that a good

670
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:45,879
Speaker 1: place to kind of pick up leading up to where

671
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:46,920
Speaker 1: we're going with the story?

672
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,440
Speaker 2: Yeah? Sure, you know she at a certain point she

673
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 2: takes the bus to San Diego. I've never been able

674
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:55,960
Speaker 2: to figure out exactly why she went to San Diego.

675
00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:59,320
Speaker 2: There's a sense that maybe she wasn't happening with this

676
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 2: guy was associating with at the time by the name

677
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 2: of Carl Bausinger, And you know, she may have just said,

678
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 2: got on the next bus out of town because he

679
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 2: was he was a bad guy, and he was you know,

680
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:16,279
Speaker 2: had a record for sexual assault, crooked and all of that,

681
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:18,319
Speaker 2: And soon she may just want to get away from him,

682
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 2: so help them the next bus, or maybe she just

683
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,000
Speaker 2: said San Diego might be warmer than Los Angeles. So

684
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 2: she goes down to San Diego and was very kindly

685
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 2: taken in by Dorothy French and her mother. And it's

686
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 2: it's I point out a book, it's always the people

687
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 2: with police means who are there? Former's milk, so you

688
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 2: know it's people like Marjorie Graham or Dorothy French. People

689
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:40,879
Speaker 2: don't have a lot of money. And you know it's

690
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:44,879
Speaker 2: usually women, not usually the men, and and so here

691
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 2: there are. She stays with the French family for about

692
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 2: a month and finally they think, listen, there would be

693
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 2: a tiny table trailer essentially, and they finally say, listen,

694
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 2: you've got to get moved on. So thiss and she

695
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 2: heads back to Los Angeles with a young man who

696
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:05,239
Speaker 2: she met a few weeks earlier, and he's driving back

697
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:08,360
Speaker 2: to Los Angeles. She asks him for a ride. He

698
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 2: drops her off at bill Mark Hotel around seven o'clock

699
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 2: in the evening, and that's the last confirmed sight until

700
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:18,120
Speaker 2: her body spotted a cot.

701
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:23,040
Speaker 1: Now, what is her friendship for a living situation with

702
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 1: Marjorie Graham at this point has that dissolved also because

703
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:28,920
Speaker 1: Marjorie needs her to bring in some money and Elizabeth

704
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 1: is not into that idea right now.

705
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, well toback up a little bit then, So when

706
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:37,799
Speaker 2: Marjorie and Elizabeth eventually moved in with their two boyfriends

707
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:39,400
Speaker 2: that they were dating at the time, So there was

708
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 2: Bill Robinson and Marvel Markgolis from Lisabeth was dating Margolis

709
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:47,759
Speaker 2: and it's it's only a week and it's during this

710
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 2: period of time when Elizabeth shows up to her friend

711
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 2: an Talk's house in tears because she's been assault She's

712
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:56,719
Speaker 2: been struck and push out, pushed out of the car

713
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 2: now and wasn't sure whether it was Bill or Marvin,

714
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 2: when it seems to me it was likely Marvin because

715
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:05,719
Speaker 2: that's the one Elizabeth was dating at the time. But

716
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 2: at that point both young women are like, don We're

717
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:10,440
Speaker 2: just we got to get out of here. Marjorie decides

718
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 2: to go back to Boston, and the Lusban says, I'm

719
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:15,239
Speaker 2: gonna go with you, but in the last minute she

720
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 2: changes her mind and changing her mind and staying in

721
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:20,759
Speaker 2: Los Angeles. She ends up breaking with Martin marc Oris

722
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:23,840
Speaker 2: and moving back into Mark Hansen's house.

723
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:25,959
Speaker 1: With Anne paul I want to, of course, know about

724
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:28,800
Speaker 1: Marvin because he becomes pretty pivotal in the story. But

725
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:31,799
Speaker 1: tell me about Mark Hansen because he pops up quite

726
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:32,799
Speaker 1: a lot after the murder.

727
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, Mark Hanson was a wealthy theater owner, restaurant owner.

728
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 2: It's like the perfect noir build, right, he's you know,

729
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 2: he's always in a toxedo and he's Hanson, and he's

730
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:45,879
Speaker 2: always got a new woman on his arm, and its

731
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:51,479
Speaker 2: gangster my club. And Keith becomes fascinated for and really,

732
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 2: you know, according to several people, he really kind of

733
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:58,839
Speaker 2: was crushing on her, and Elizabeth was not crushing on him,

734
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 2: and so she home she was a virgin, and I

735
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:04,560
Speaker 2: think you know that's that was That's probably not a

736
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:08,319
Speaker 2: huge exageration, but it's it's somewhat different collaboration. But she says,

737
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 2: I'm a virgin and I'm I'm not going to put

738
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:14,200
Speaker 2: out for you, and that keeps her safe in Mark

739
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 2: living in Mark Hanton's house until he gets fed up

740
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,560
Speaker 2: with waiting and picks her out. Mark Hanson works, you know,

741
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:23,440
Speaker 2: we see so many men like him today, so many men,

742
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 2: you know, go to women and using them, discarding them

743
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:29,400
Speaker 2: when they walk. And this was who he was. I

744
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:33,239
Speaker 2: think Elizabeth was fortunate never to get too close to him.

745
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:36,800
Speaker 2: But she does get kicked out of Hanson's house and

746
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:40,839
Speaker 2: she ends up staying a few plates and then ends

747
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 2: up with Carlin Belsoner who I mentioned, And that's the

748
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:48,640
Speaker 2: last conflict in Los Angeles before she goes to San Diego.

749
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:50,920
Speaker 2: But I wish in so many ways that she had

750
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:54,400
Speaker 2: followed Marjorie back to Boston. Yeah, you know, because uh,

751
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:56,960
Speaker 2: you know, Marjorie was always there for Marjorie gives her

752
00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:59,840
Speaker 2: one hundred dollars need the amount of money, you know,

753
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:01,840
Speaker 2: right before she leaves. So right up to the end,

754
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:04,640
Speaker 2: Margie's taking care of her, but the list isn't quite

755
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 2: ready to give up her adventuring, actually not willing to

756
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 2: pull back home. And she's still thinking maybe there's something

757
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 2: out here that I could I could get.

758
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 1: So you know, you've ticked off several different names that

759
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:19,800
Speaker 1: come up with the police, Carl Baalsinger, and then of

760
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:24,279
Speaker 1: course you know Mark Hanson, and then you've got Marvin also,

761
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:27,799
Speaker 1: who will talk about. But one thing that you want

762
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 1: to point out is that the assumption is that she

763
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 1: is sleeping with everybody right when it sounds like and

764
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:35,440
Speaker 1: now I want to know what your sources are here

765
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:37,320
Speaker 1: kind of in your research you found like that's not

766
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:39,759
Speaker 1: really the case as you had hinted at a little

767
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 1: bit ago.

768
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,279
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, it really isn't. I mean, certainly she never

769
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 2: slept with Mark Hanson. That was That was ultimately why

770
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:48,080
Speaker 2: I picked them up, kicked her out. Some of the

771
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:51,480
Speaker 2: other young men that the police will later interview that

772
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 2: they find in her at this book, they all say, no,

773
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 2: we never, we were never. You know, I took her

774
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 2: to dinner. We maybe tissed a little bit, but that

775
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:01,400
Speaker 2: was it. Read Mandling. The same thing. The friend who

776
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 2: gives her a ride back to Los Angeles from San Diego.

777
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 2: All of them say there's there was no sexual involvement. However,

778
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 2: it may have been different with Carl Balsinger because Elizabeth

779
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:16,680
Speaker 2: goes to the doctor shortly after she recurs from her

780
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 2: Highway Ballason books, right before she leaves from San Diego,

781
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 2: and she tells the doctor there that she she has

782
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:29,680
Speaker 2: an inflamed glad and it's the barbelp glad. Something I

783
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 2: didn't know existed and a lot of people have never

784
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 2: heard of it. But it's a what a barbolin glad

785
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 2: b R T H O L. I am, it's in

786
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 2: the vagina and it's it is I will easily be inflamed.

787
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:47,799
Speaker 2: But if you have allergies, especially to lateex, so it's

788
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 2: clear that the reason Elizabeth supposedly didn't enjoy having sex

789
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 2: and you didn't have sex very often, it was because

790
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:58,279
Speaker 2: she had this latex allergy. And if a guy did

791
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:00,879
Speaker 2: it were a rubber a condom which they were using

792
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 2: in like before said, she could end up having this

793
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:09,520
Speaker 2: really painful information she So that's why I suggested perhaps

794
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 2: perhaps she did have sex with a potential or not.

795
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:17,080
Speaker 2: We don't know. With Carl Bausinger and she apeudition leaves

796
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 2: for San Diego. So for the most part, Elizabeth was

797
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,400
Speaker 2: not having sex with any news back. She used flirtation,

798
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 2: not sexuality to get what she wanted.

799
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:31,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, what is her sister? So it's Muriel Short. What

800
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:33,880
Speaker 1: does she say about any of that? I mean, was

801
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:37,320
Speaker 1: she privy to any intimate information from Elizabeth or no?

802
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 2: No, she never saw Lilizbith obviously after Elizabeth went left

803
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 2: for California. But she always said that Elizabeth was known

804
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:50,880
Speaker 2: as the good girl in high school, that she was

805
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:53,920
Speaker 2: the girl who if some of her friends were using

806
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:57,239
Speaker 2: swear words, a cuss words, she got very embarrassed and left.

807
00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:00,239
Speaker 2: She was there was a bit of a prudishness to her,

808
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:03,759
Speaker 2: and you know, again being raised by her mother who

809
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 2: is a you know, devout Baptist and religious. I think

810
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:12,360
Speaker 2: that problem makes sense that Elizabeth's reputation and Metford was

811
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:16,520
Speaker 2: you know, the very straight links pipe and so you know,

812
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 2: I think that fits with the young notions. She's trying

813
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 2: to break out of that a little bit, but she's

814
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:23,400
Speaker 2: she still has some grammars and.

815
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:25,719
Speaker 1: I think part of that, for me is framed with

816
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 1: that photo which everybody uses, including you you use on

817
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:32,279
Speaker 1: the cover, which to me, if you look at the

818
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 1: photo of her, now that's when she was arrested, not

819
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 1: for drinking underage, right, but being there when people were

820
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:42,759
Speaker 1: underage drinking. But it's her younger, four years younger than

821
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:46,880
Speaker 1: before she was murdered, and she looks rough, which is

822
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:50,360
Speaker 1: interpreted I think by you know, a modern day readers

823
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:54,439
Speaker 1: and viewers as sexy. She's kind of tussled and everything. Boy,

824
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:57,040
Speaker 1: you look at all the other photos, she doesn't look

825
00:42:57,040 --> 00:42:57,840
Speaker 1: at anything like that.

826
00:42:58,000 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 2: I mean, she does not have that.

827
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:01,800
Speaker 1: So if you look in any other photo that I

828
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 1: saw right right.

829
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:07,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know that the the mugshot is as soon

830
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:10,320
Speaker 2: as I saw it, I didn't actually see, you know,

831
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:12,680
Speaker 2: bad girl in it. What I saw is I see

832
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:16,240
Speaker 2: resolved in her eyes. I see like you know, I'm okay.

833
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:19,279
Speaker 2: I mean, there's fear in her eyes, definitely, but there's

834
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:23,719
Speaker 2: also it's almost like she's looking to break free at

835
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 2: any moment, like you know, you think you've got me,

836
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:29,239
Speaker 2: but I'm going to get out of this. I'm going

837
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 2: to find my way out of this. And so I

838
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:34,799
Speaker 2: see that agency in racks as well as the fear.

839
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:37,880
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that that photo. Of course, you know,

840
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 1: most everybody would use it because to me, in crime,

841
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 1: there are very few photos throughout history where if you

842
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 1: show it, you probably don't even have to say what

843
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:49,960
Speaker 1: it's about. I think everybody knows that's Elizabeth Short, or

844
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:52,239
Speaker 1: at least they know that's Black Dahlia, sort of like

845
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:55,279
Speaker 1: the Delphi Bridge, you know, these there are some of

846
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 1: these iconic images, and she happens, she happens to to

847
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:01,520
Speaker 1: you know, that mug shot is it for her? But man,

848
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:03,840
Speaker 1: it's just so different than any of the other stuff.

849
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 1: The post of even when she's in a you know,

850
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,879
Speaker 1: in a in a bathing suit and right right, So yeah,

851
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:13,719
Speaker 1: let's talk about Marvin, because Marvin really does pop up too.

852
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:16,800
Speaker 1: So tell me about that relationship with with Elizabeth.

853
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:20,279
Speaker 2: They they meet on Hollywood Boulevard. He's with his friend

854
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 2: Bill Robinson and Martinie Brown and they hit it off.

855
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:29,719
Speaker 2: Pears that always been liked his Marvin's irreverence hating have

856
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:32,320
Speaker 2: a lot of patients for upitty people, so you know,

857
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 2: when they would go to Mark Hampton's house market courses

858
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:39,799
Speaker 2: and slightly guy and Marvin seems to you know, knew

859
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 2: how to needle it, which Elizabeth probably enjoyed because Martin's

860
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 2: always set controling. Their enjoyed that. But Marvin has a

861
00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:50,520
Speaker 2: has a real dark side as well, and he's he's

862
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 2: not a very sarcastic, very cutting. He had been in

863
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:56,759
Speaker 2: the in the war in which he had served in

864
00:44:56,840 --> 00:45:00,840
Speaker 2: open hour and had it's involved some terrible, terrible battles

865
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 2: in which he nearly lost his life. He comes back

866
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:07,800
Speaker 2: with a lot of PTSD. One of his jobs he

867
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:10,640
Speaker 2: was he wanted to be a doctor simp. He was

868
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:14,399
Speaker 2: working as his surgeon's assistant and one of his jobs

869
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 2: was to go out and fields the battlefields after the

870
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:21,520
Speaker 2: ballot was over and collect king and legs and try

871
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 2: to put them back together. So this is a guy

872
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 2: who emerges from the service with a fifty percent psychiatric disability,

873
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:32,920
Speaker 2: and his psychiatry seemed to be went on his discharge.

874
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:37,480
Speaker 2: It could be violent and they making some danger around him.

875
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 2: Then enrolls with the gi Bill at USC, where is

876
00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:48,120
Speaker 2: major ed wraps out of all of his classes his

877
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:52,200
Speaker 2: first semester. He's a guy who has ambition, but has

878
00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:55,680
Speaker 2: always been told by his superior rooms in the military

879
00:45:56,239 --> 00:46:00,920
Speaker 2: and his professors at USC and the his father that

880
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 2: he'll never mock to him. So he's got a lot

881
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:06,719
Speaker 2: of resentment on rage and that's that pretty much. Will

882
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:07,359
Speaker 2: defines Helf.

883
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 1: What is the time frame between when he or Bill

884
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 1: we don't know who, but we're gonna assume more of

885
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:16,520
Speaker 1: and pushes Elizabeth out of the car in La to

886
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 1: when she walks into the biltmore and then walks out

887
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:22,440
Speaker 1: and vanishes.

888
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:27,400
Speaker 2: It's about a month or so. There's probably in October

889
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:31,440
Speaker 2: sometime when that incident happens. After that, she goes back

890
00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:36,200
Speaker 2: with Mark Hanson. Marvin gets married to a woman who

891
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:39,799
Speaker 2: I believe his family sent from Chicago and I've kind

892
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:43,440
Speaker 2: of been arranged Merrick and they get married and Elizabeth

893
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 2: goes sent to San Diego and then comes back. We

894
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:50,759
Speaker 2: know when she's got to build more well. Doorman told

895
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:53,400
Speaker 2: Glass that we saw her several times going back towards

896
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:55,480
Speaker 2: where we pay phone to her, so that she was

897
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:58,759
Speaker 2: likely calling people to say, you know, CA, can can

898
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:00,800
Speaker 2: pick me up? Or can I say to play tonight.

899
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:04,799
Speaker 2: We know that she called Mark Hampson and Test Martin

900
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:07,800
Speaker 2: and that she could stay there and said no, that

901
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:10,960
Speaker 2: Anne Talker is away. But you know, when Anne was back,

902
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 2: she could Palmer to call in once an back, so

903
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:17,759
Speaker 2: that was ruled out. It didn't have that place to go,

904
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:20,919
Speaker 2: So she's left with you know, who might she have called?

905
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:24,120
Speaker 2: And I think, you know, I don't think she would

906
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:26,360
Speaker 2: have called Carl Bows and Europe because she seems to

907
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 2: have tried to get away from him. She Marjorie Margine

908
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:33,360
Speaker 2: is now gone. She may have called her former landlord,

909
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:36,600
Speaker 2: Colin Wolf, and she may have called Marvin or Lees.

910
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:41,560
Speaker 1: Okay, and do they know whether he has had any

911
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 1: contact with her in between the incident in October and

912
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 1: when she disappears or is there no way to prove

913
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:50,399
Speaker 1: that in nineteen forty seven they did.

914
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:52,399
Speaker 2: They saw each other again in November, so there we've

915
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:56,960
Speaker 2: been shortly before Elsbith left or San Diego. They ran

916
00:47:57,000 --> 00:47:59,840
Speaker 2: into each other, and we know that there was contact

917
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:04,919
Speaker 2: to Elizabeth and both Bill Robinson Martins. She's not seen

918
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:07,800
Speaker 2: by anyone who at least by anyone who came forward

919
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:10,040
Speaker 2: or about a week after the after being able to

920
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:12,360
Speaker 2: Biltmore and the next and then her body is found

921
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:17,320
Speaker 2: in the vacant lot in Layman part. She's spotted a

922
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:20,440
Speaker 2: few places people would come forward and say like, oh

923
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:24,080
Speaker 2: I saw her, I saw her. None of those were

924
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 2: able to be confirmed, and some of them were absolutely

925
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:30,600
Speaker 2: not credible. So we have literally no idea where she

926
00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:33,000
Speaker 2: spent her time there. So I have to believe at

927
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:36,439
Speaker 2: some point, sadly during that week she was being held

928
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:40,400
Speaker 2: against her will, because she she would have called on

929
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:43,560
Speaker 2: Talk and Talk was her best friend and and who

930
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:45,440
Speaker 2: lived with a lot of guilt about this, and she

931
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:48,640
Speaker 2: wasn't home that night and she said, you know, she

932
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:51,239
Speaker 2: could have she would have called it. So at some

933
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:53,760
Speaker 2: at some point I believe she was being held against

934
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:56,560
Speaker 2: her will. Maybe it didn't feel like against her will

935
00:48:56,600 --> 00:48:59,799
Speaker 2: at first, but you know, she was somehow she would

936
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:03,600
Speaker 2: have up from contacting people. And then when her body

937
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:06,040
Speaker 2: is found, of course there's no way to identify her,

938
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:11,640
Speaker 2: so it's hot to find her. Eventually she's identified by

939
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 2: her fingerprints because when she was arrested at the younger

940
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:20,879
Speaker 2: age drinking, the f y her fingerprints, so they're able

941
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:25,040
Speaker 2: to identify her. And then becomes the whole hunt, you know,

942
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 2: going to her address book, trying to find anyone who

943
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:31,680
Speaker 2: might be a suspect in this case. Her mother comes

944
00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:34,759
Speaker 2: out to identify the body, and you know, for the

945
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:37,720
Speaker 2: first few weeks everyone thought was wrapped up pretty quickly,

946
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:41,120
Speaker 2: and then it started driving out. Now, so the case

947
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 2: goes off the wails in nineteen forty eight.

948
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:49,359
Speaker 1: So they investigate LAPD investigates, you know, a lot of men,

949
00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:52,359
Speaker 1: and they seem to have cleared almost all of them.

950
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:54,799
Speaker 1: Is that right or where where did they stand before

951
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:56,560
Speaker 1: this case really goes cold cold?

952
00:49:57,080 --> 00:49:59,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, most of them had been clear. There was a

953
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:02,800
Speaker 2: thought that maybe that Robert brand Mandally had been the killer,

954
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:05,760
Speaker 2: that this year he had been technically the last person

955
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:08,520
Speaker 2: to see her alive. But then of course he was exonerated.

956
00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:11,640
Speaker 2: They thought perhaps one of her roommates, and Mark Lynn

957
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:14,480
Speaker 2: Martin might have been been the killer, and that was

958
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 2: also quickly disproved. Pickle, like Marvin Margolis and Jill Robinson

959
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:22,280
Speaker 2: were intervened. Both of them had alibi's. Marvin's was provided

960
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:25,480
Speaker 2: by his wife of about a month's fine. By the

961
00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:27,719
Speaker 2: end of nineteen forty seven into night and fourty eight,

962
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:29,000
Speaker 2: there were no needs.

963
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:33,480
Speaker 1: And you have to think that alibis would be incredibly

964
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:37,359
Speaker 1: problematic because it had been a week no one saw

965
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:40,279
Speaker 1: her with anyone. She could have gone and stayed with

966
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:43,719
Speaker 1: some brand new girlfriend of hers for six days and

967
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:47,799
Speaker 1: then went to the corner market and some stranger snatched her.

968
00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 1: So that makes it so much more difficult to nail

969
00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:53,960
Speaker 1: down any of these men. And I know a lot

970
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:58,560
Speaker 1: of people focus on Marvin because the acrimony and the relationship,

971
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:01,440
Speaker 1: but also you know, obviously what he did, what he

972
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:04,840
Speaker 1: had to do, you know, during war, and just his

973
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:07,719
Speaker 1: PTSD and his just sort of the way things went

974
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:11,520
Speaker 1: generally for him. Do you think that the police, you know,

975
00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:14,240
Speaker 1: in their heart of hearts, was he the main suspect?

976
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 1: Do you think or they just threw up their hands

977
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:18,080
Speaker 1: and said, I have no idea, it could be Mark Canson,

978
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:18,800
Speaker 1: could be anybody.

979
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 2: In the beginning, though he wasn't. He wasn't even on

980
00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:23,719
Speaker 2: their radar Marvin, because you know, he had come in

981
00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:26,960
Speaker 2: reluctantly and he had to be an alibied, so they

982
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:28,880
Speaker 2: just kind of put him on the back burner and

983
00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:32,040
Speaker 2: they went after everybody else. Mark Canson was a suspect

984
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:35,440
Speaker 2: for a long time until the DA essentially clears him

985
00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:39,120
Speaker 2: in nine at the end of that period, but the

986
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:42,200
Speaker 2: district Attorney has to step in to oversee the case.

987
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:44,960
Speaker 2: But like the cretic go off the rails, you know,

988
00:51:45,160 --> 00:51:48,920
Speaker 2: botched the investigation by the police psychiatrist. It's at the

989
00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:53,320
Speaker 2: very end of the DA's investigation that they say Marvin

990
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:55,759
Speaker 2: Margots couldn't be a very good suspect. But we don't

991
00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:58,160
Speaker 2: have reference after that, and because then it goes back

992
00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:01,279
Speaker 2: to the investigation goes back to you know, and those

993
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:03,640
Speaker 2: records are all clothes to us, So we don't know

994
00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:05,880
Speaker 2: what they did after that. We don't know how how

995
00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:08,160
Speaker 2: much they invent mad mar Goal was Well, what I

996
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:10,879
Speaker 2: always say is, you know, I make it really clear

997
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:12,279
Speaker 2: in the book that I'm not here to solve it

998
00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:14,799
Speaker 2: because I don't think it's solvable. Yeah, you know, it's

999
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:17,440
Speaker 2: just not unless all of those records were open and

1000
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:21,480
Speaker 2: there's some new, startling information. And I always make room

1001
00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:25,480
Speaker 2: for the ideas. Just what you said that it was

1002
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:29,919
Speaker 2: she ran into a stranger, A stranger, A stranger could

1003
00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:32,120
Speaker 2: have done this, and I know that's unsatisfying for a

1004
00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:35,480
Speaker 2: lot of people, but you know that couldn't exactly have

1005
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:38,440
Speaker 2: been the case. That she ran into somebody who she

1006
00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:41,400
Speaker 2: had never met before, and that person, you know, it

1007
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:44,399
Speaker 2: was not on the police's radar because the name wasn't

1008
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:46,600
Speaker 2: it was it's address book or anything like that. It

1009
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:50,080
Speaker 2: was something brand new, and we can never dismiss that

1010
00:52:50,239 --> 00:52:51,560
Speaker 2: as a possibility. Yeah.

1011
00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:53,640
Speaker 1: Absolutely, And I think one of the things we talked

1012
00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:56,400
Speaker 1: about in our episode that a Barry Bones at Poland

1013
00:52:56,440 --> 00:52:59,200
Speaker 1: I had was, you know, the idea of people it's personal.

1014
00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:01,200
Speaker 1: It looks so personal, especially if you read about the

1015
00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:05,279
Speaker 1: really truly awful details of what happened with her, it's

1016
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:07,720
Speaker 1: so personal. Well, and then Paul says, and I agree,

1017
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:10,040
Speaker 1: based on everything I've ever read about you know, crime

1018
00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:12,640
Speaker 1: and history, now people are really sick.

1019
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:13,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they don't.

1020
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:15,680
Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be personal for anyone to do

1021
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:17,319
Speaker 1: any of the things that happened to her.

1022
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:20,719
Speaker 2: Right, So the rage that someone feels about society or

1023
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:24,040
Speaker 2: about women in general, that could have been enacted on

1024
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:27,080
Speaker 2: Elizabeth in fantasy, right in fantasy. Yeah, And that she

1025
00:53:27,760 --> 00:53:29,160
Speaker 2: happened to be there, and so she's.

1026
00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:30,920
Speaker 1: The one that was the one who was taking The

1027
00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:33,840
Speaker 1: only conclusion I can make is that you know, and

1028
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:36,359
Speaker 1: I don't have a particular interest in solving it either.

1029
00:53:36,719 --> 00:53:39,400
Speaker 1: The only conclusion I can make is that Elizabeth was

1030
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:41,839
Speaker 1: vulnerable on a lot of different levels, like a lot

1031
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:44,560
Speaker 1: of women were, not just in LA in the forties

1032
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:47,680
Speaker 1: and not just in Austin, Texas now in twenty twenty

1033
00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:50,160
Speaker 1: six where I am. You know, it could have been

1034
00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:52,440
Speaker 1: a crime of opportunity. But you're right, people want to

1035
00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:54,800
Speaker 1: know who Jack the Ripper is, and so you know,

1036
00:53:55,200 --> 00:53:57,759
Speaker 1: really the bottom line when we kind of wrap this

1037
00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:01,080
Speaker 1: around about things that we learned from this case and

1038
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:03,440
Speaker 1: what I say about history, is that there was an

1039
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:07,239
Speaker 1: Elizabeth short decades hundreds of years before her, and there

1040
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:10,439
Speaker 1: is you know, someone like her who will who will

1041
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:15,120
Speaker 1: unfortunately be murdered tomorrow. Who knows are we going to

1042
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:18,920
Speaker 1: learn from that story or do we just continually keep

1043
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:21,600
Speaker 1: repeating it over and over again, you know, And I'm

1044
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:23,200
Speaker 1: afraid there's there's some of both of that.

1045
00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:24,920
Speaker 2: Maybe. Yeah, I think we're right.

1046
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:29,160
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, Well, I hope that with this book, which has

1047
00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:33,239
Speaker 1: been called by many places the definitive book on Elizabeth

1048
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:35,799
Speaker 1: Short Black Dahlia. You know, I hope that this book

1049
00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:38,839
Speaker 1: people really remember what we are always trying to say,

1050
00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:41,840
Speaker 1: which this has to be about the victim, right. You know,

1051
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:45,000
Speaker 1: Elizabeth Short was not some avatar for all women. She

1052
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:47,480
Speaker 1: was her own person. She had her own story. It

1053
00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:51,040
Speaker 1: was complicated like everybody else's story was. And what we

1054
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:54,640
Speaker 1: want to do is remind people who are consuming true

1055
00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:58,799
Speaker 1: crime that we are talking about real people, real tragedies,

1056
00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:02,040
Speaker 1: and their family. I care, and it is still painful.

1057
00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:04,640
Speaker 1: It is the tapestry, right, part of a little bit

1058
00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:07,920
Speaker 1: of the tapestry of their family history, and they deserve

1059
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:11,560
Speaker 1: to have the truth told about them absolutely. Under a saying,

1060
00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:26,000
Speaker 1: if you love historical true crime stories, check out the

1061
00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:29,080
Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Sinners All Bow, The

1062
00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:32,279
Speaker 1: Ghost Club, All That Is Wicked, and American Sherlock and

1063
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:35,640
Speaker 1: don't forget There are twelve seasons of my historical true

1064
00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:40,120
Speaker 1: crime podcast tenfold More Wicked. Right here in this podcast feed,

1065
00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:43,120
Speaker 1: scroll back and give them a listen if you haven't already.

1066
00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:47,040
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production. Our senior producer

1067
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:51,560
Speaker 1: is Alexis M. Morosi. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.

1068
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:55,560
Speaker 1: This episode was mixed by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is

1069
00:55:55,600 --> 00:55:59,920
Speaker 1: our composer. Artwork by Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia h.

1070
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:03,920
Speaker 1: Hard Stark, Karen Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words

1071
00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:07,600
Speaker 1: on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more Wicked and on

1072
00:56:07,719 --> 00:56:10,160
Speaker 1: Twitter at tenfold More. And if you know of a

1073
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Speaker 1: authors for Wicked Words