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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Are the walls closing in

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Speaker 1: for movie star Alec Baldwin? Is his gun lie as

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Speaker 1: some portray it falling apart? Remember when the shooting occurred

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Speaker 1: on the set of Rust, he insisted he never pulled

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Speaker 1: the trigger. Well, the FBI says something entirely different. I mean,

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being

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Speaker 1: with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM one eleven.

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Speaker 1: A brand new FBI report has come out, a ballistics analysis.

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Speaker 1: What does it say and what does it mean? First

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Speaker 1: of all, take a listen to this tonight and FBI

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Speaker 1: analysis revealing new details about the investigation into the deadly

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Speaker 1: shoot on the set of the movie Rust. After testing

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Speaker 1: the firearm, the FBI concluding the gun quote could not

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Speaker 1: be made to fire without a pull of the trigger.

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Speaker 1: Baldwin adamant, he never pulled the trigger. Well, the trigger

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Speaker 1: wasn't pull I didn't pull the trigger, So you never

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Speaker 1: pulled the trigger? No, no, no, no no. I would

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Speaker 1: never point a gun anyone and pull a trigger at them. Never.

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Speaker 1: But tonight, the FBI contradicting that account, authorities contending testing

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Speaker 1: showing the trigger had to have been pulled. You were

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Speaker 1: hearing our friend Will Carr at ABC, and you heard

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Speaker 1: Alec Baldwin speaking there. And that is precisely why we

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Speaker 1: have the Fifth Amendment, the right to remain silent. Now,

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Speaker 1: the Constitution protects us all, including Alec Baldwin, from undue

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Speaker 1: forced by police or the state to make you utter

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Speaker 1: a statement. It does not protect you from mouthing off

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Speaker 1: to ABC. Now take a listen now to our friends

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Speaker 1: at GMA. This has been a question now for months.

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Speaker 1: Was the trigger pulled in this fatal shooting? While Baldwin

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Speaker 1: says no, FBI says yes. This morning, a new FBI

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Speaker 1: analysis contradicting Alec Baldwin's account of the deadly shooting of

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Speaker 1: cinematographer Helena Hutchins on the set of the movie rusted

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Speaker 1: one of the FBI's key findings after testing the firearm,

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Speaker 1: the FBI concluding in a new report the gun quote

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Speaker 1: could not be made to fire without a pull of

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Speaker 1: the trigger. Two things that stand out in these multiple

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Speaker 1: FBI reports really Number one, they basically conclude that they

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Speaker 1: contradict really this report that Baldwin's claimed that he did

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Speaker 1: not pull the trigger of the gun that killed Helena Hutchins.

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Speaker 1: Number two, the FBI did some fingerprint in DNA analysis

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Speaker 1: and tests on the gun, the cases, the ammunition box,

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Speaker 1: and basically it revealed that there were no surprise mystery individuals,

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Speaker 1: meaning there was no evidence that anyone other than those

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Speaker 1: directly involved tampered with the gun or ammunition. And that's important.

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Speaker 1: You're also hearing our friends at Fox News. So what

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Speaker 1: does it all mean? You know, when you get a report,

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Speaker 1: a scientific report from the crime lab, whether it's about DNA,

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Speaker 1: fiber evidence, blood evidence, or ballistics evidence, they're really hard

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Speaker 1: to read. Like I did with medical examiners when they

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Speaker 1: would see my beat up hooda coming their way, they'd

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Speaker 1: hide under the table because they need they were in

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Speaker 1: for a grilling, not in an angry or hostile way,

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Speaker 1: but to understand what each in every line means. It's

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Speaker 1: literally a scientific report. The same thing goes for ballistics

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Speaker 1: with me an all star panel. To make sense of

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Speaker 1: what we know right now? And what does this FBI

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Speaker 1: report mean for a movie star? Alec Baldwin to Dave

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Speaker 1: Matt Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, what do you

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Speaker 1: know about the report? What we know is that the

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Speaker 1: FBI did intense investigation into this gun, Nancy. They test

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Speaker 1: fired it. The FBI worked through everything they could with

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Speaker 1: this gun and determined that the only way this gun

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Speaker 1: would be fired could be fired was if the trigger

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Speaker 1: was pulled. I'm just soaking in everything you said because

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Speaker 1: of what we got here, justice got Morgan, Professor forensics,

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Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon.

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Speaker 1: Starve a brand new hit series on iHeart called Body

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Speaker 1: Backs that j Scott Morgan, Joe Scott, I hear everything

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Speaker 1: that Dave Matt just said. I know that he's correct,

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Speaker 1: but I am a JD basically a trial lawyer. Break

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Speaker 1: it down for me and try not to use any

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Speaker 1: medical terms or any Latin phrases. Okay, I'll don descending laughter, Okay,

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Speaker 1: all right, okay, worried, Well in this particular case, don't

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Speaker 1: know what you're talking about. Don't like it when you

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Speaker 1: have that condescending weapon. Okay, go ahead, Yeah, all right, Okay.

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Speaker 1: The weapon was collected from the scene in New Mexico,

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Speaker 1: and it was not tested by the state crime lab

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Speaker 1: in New Mexico. It was sent to Quantico. Nancy, you

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Speaker 1: know what that just gives me a chill down my

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Speaker 1: spinal here Quantico, because that's where business goes down. Let

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Speaker 1: me tell you what kind of a weapon is it,

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Speaker 1: just Scott, Well, it's a forty five caliber revolver and

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Speaker 1: it's a single action revolver. And if folks at home,

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Speaker 1: we'll just think about Western's all right, this was a

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Speaker 1: Western they were filming, so you're going to use weapons

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Speaker 1: that marry up to that. Now, this is what's referred

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Speaker 1: to as a reproduction weapon, but it's still functional and

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Speaker 1: this weapon fired forty five caliber ammunition. It's a cult

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Speaker 1: long I believe that, if memory serves me correctly. And

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Speaker 1: so this weapon was actually sent to Quantico for their

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Speaker 1: ballistics people to take a look at. And when you

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Speaker 1: get into the ballistics lab, which is absolutely fascinating in

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Speaker 1: our world and forensics, there's only one thing I love

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Speaker 1: more than going to the morgue Jackie to talk to

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Speaker 1: the medical examiner, and that's the ballistics division of the

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Speaker 1: crime lab. It's you're right, Jesso, it is. It's fascinating.

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Speaker 1: And the ones I've been in walls and walls of

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Speaker 1: weapons and it's it's pretty incredible. They have a huge database,

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Speaker 1: but for the specific testing for this weapon. If you

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Speaker 1: think about a big what's called external hammer, which is

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Speaker 1: this large hammer on the back, you have to actually

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Speaker 1: actuate the hammer. That means pull it back. In this

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Speaker 1: particular weapon, I believe has three separate settings. You have

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Speaker 1: what's called quartercock, which means just slightly back. Right. For

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Speaker 1: those of people that don't know what the hammer is, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: did you describe that place? Yeah, it's it's actually functioned.

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Speaker 1: It is use you can actuate it by using your thumb.

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Speaker 1: You mean, it's the thing on top of the gun.

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Speaker 1: It is. And so when you pull the trigger, the

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Speaker 1: hammer goes forward, all right, and it strikes It strikes

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Speaker 1: the pen and that actually initiates the blast of the weapon.

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Speaker 1: That's this process has to go on. And so when

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Speaker 1: they're testing this, so when you pull the trigger, you

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Speaker 1: bring down the hammer, you do, but the weapon has

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Speaker 1: to be cocked first. And do you mean pull the

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Speaker 1: hammer back? It has to be pulled back and not

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Speaker 1: just simply you can't just pull the trigger with this weapon.

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Speaker 1: It's a single action, which means you have to there's

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Speaker 1: a couple of moves. You have to pull back the

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Speaker 1: hammer specifically and then pull a trigger. So you've got

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Speaker 1: yeah all the way. Well, I'm writing this down. I

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Speaker 1: heard Del Carson, who high profile lawyer out of Jackson

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Speaker 1: will also former FED with the FBI. We also have

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Speaker 1: Steve Wolf weapons safety for film expert. You producing a

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Speaker 1: TV and film. We're all weighing in on this. Me

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Speaker 1: last of all, since I'm the least experienced compared to

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Speaker 1: you guys. But I heard Del Carson jump in and

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Speaker 1: he's right, Joe Scott, you have to pull the hammer

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Speaker 1: back all the way on this weapon. Go ahead. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So you know, when you begin to think about this

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Speaker 1: from just a basic mechanics standpoint, it requires multiple actions.

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Speaker 1: It's not just a matter of drawing the weapon, which

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Speaker 1: he used what's called a cross draw, where the weapon

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Speaker 1: is actually holstered on his left side, he's right handed,

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Speaker 1: reaches across his body, pulls it out. So in this

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Speaker 1: action he's pulling it out and apparently cocking the hammer

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Speaker 1: at the same time. That means pulling it all the

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Speaker 1: way back and then he has to pull the trigger.

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Speaker 1: And when they did the testing Nanswer at Quantico, one

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Speaker 1: of the things that they found is that they do

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Speaker 1: what's called a drop test, where if you cock it

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Speaker 1: all the way back and you drop the weapon. A

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Speaker 1: weapon doesn't fire on its own, you have to pull

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Speaker 1: the trigger, and so there's no They found that there

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Speaker 1: was no defect in the weapon, is what it comes

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Speaker 1: down to. I'm now going to go to Steve Wolf,

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Speaker 1: weapons Safety for Film expert thirty years producing TV and film.

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Speaker 1: He is the CEO of Teamwildfire dot com. Steve Wolf,

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Speaker 1: I imagine this FBI report has shaken the prop community

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Speaker 1: to its core with the reality of what can go

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Speaker 1: wrong on a set. Jump in Steve, we need you now. Okay, Well,

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Speaker 1: first of all, nobody was shaken to the core. I

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Speaker 1: was to think of an innocent mother, wife, just standing

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Speaker 1: there doing her job get shot by what should have

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Speaker 1: been a prop gun on a set. Right. You know,

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Speaker 1: when I come to the studio every day, I don't

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Speaker 1: think Jack is going to pull a gun. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I hope. Yeah. So here she is getting ready that

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Speaker 1: afternoon to go home to her husband and her child,

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Speaker 1: and bam, she's lying on the floor bleeding out. So

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Speaker 1: that was pretty disturbing to me. Well, it is disturbing,

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Speaker 1: but the disturbing actions were not as a result of

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Speaker 1: the FBI report. The FBI report really confirmed that it

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Speaker 1: was a real gun, and it was a working gun

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Speaker 1: in working condition, and that the gun did not malfunction.

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Speaker 1: The malfunction, you know, was the loose nut behind the grip,

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Speaker 1: mister Baldwin um. And you know, you don't point guns

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Speaker 1: at people unless you want to hurt them, and you

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Speaker 1: don't put live ammo in guns. You don't hire an

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Speaker 1: armorer to make sure that your gun is safe and

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Speaker 1: then send them away to go do something else while

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Speaker 1: you play with the guns. This is this is what happened,

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Speaker 1: and it's you know, it was not the fault of

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Speaker 1: the gun. One thing that's been overlooked though in the

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Speaker 1: in discussing the way this single action gun works, that

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Speaker 1: nobody has mentioned is that the traditional way to fire

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Speaker 1: a single action revolver is that you cock the hammer

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Speaker 1: with your thumb and then you press the trigger with

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Speaker 1: your forefinger. However, it does not have to be done

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Speaker 1: in that order, and this is what I think led

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Speaker 1: to this accident. You can press the trigger and then

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Speaker 1: pull the hammer back and release it, and the gun

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Speaker 1: will also fire if you were continuing to maintain pressure

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Speaker 1: on the trigger. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Guys with

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Speaker 1: me in addition to doctor Angela, Arnold just got Morgan

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Speaker 1: Dale Carson with us a weapon safety expert film expert

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Speaker 1: at Team wildfire dot com, Steve, Would you mind saying

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Speaker 1: that last part absolutely one more time, you said, and

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Speaker 1: say it very slowly For gun dummies like myself, you said,

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Speaker 1: the traditional way to shoot a weapon like a forty

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Speaker 1: five calib or single action called long is to cut

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Speaker 1: the hammer, pull the hammer back on top with your thumb,

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Speaker 1: and then fire, I believe you said with your forefinger

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Speaker 1: or your index finger. Traditionally, first you would pull the

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Speaker 1: hammer back and then you would press the trigger. The

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Speaker 1: gun would discharge as it is designed to do. Correct. However,

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Speaker 1: if in the course of grasping the gun you are

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Speaker 1: applying pressure to the trigger and you maintain that pressure

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Speaker 1: on the trigger and simultaneously pull the hammer back and

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Speaker 1: then release it, the gun will fire because the sear

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Speaker 1: will not engage and hold the hammer back if your

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Speaker 1: finger is on the trigger. So, as opposed to the

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Speaker 1: traditional way of firing, you can also simultaneously pull the

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Speaker 1: trigger and pull back the hammer at the same time.

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Speaker 1: And that is good or bad. It's neither good or bad,

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Speaker 1: but it would explain how the gun could fire without

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Speaker 1: mister Baldwin having been aware of intentionally pressing the trigger. Okay,

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Speaker 1: pressing the trigger he means I cocked the gun and

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Speaker 1: then I pressed the trigger or I didn't press the trigger.

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Speaker 1: But if he was maintaining continuous pressure on the trigger

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Speaker 1: by the way he held the gun and then he

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Speaker 1: pulled the hammer back and released it, the gun would

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Speaker 1: discharge because the trigger was continuously depressed. I got it.

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Speaker 1: I got it that time. Del Carson with me, high

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Speaker 1: profile lawyer out of Jackson, full former fed with the

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Speaker 1: FBI as an Asian and author of Arrest Proof Yourselfies

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Speaker 1: at del Carson Law dot com. Dale, You know, in

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Speaker 1: the distric Attorney's office where prosecuted for over a decade.

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Speaker 1: We had to take continual gun practice multiple times a

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Speaker 1: year because assistant Day's or a licensed to carry gun

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Speaker 1: and affect arrests. I however, did not carry a gun

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Speaker 1: for any of those years, being a gun violence victim

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Speaker 1: that my investigator did. Anyway, during all that time, Dell Carson,

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Speaker 1: I never really voud practice at the range a lot.

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Speaker 1: I never really understood the intricacies that we're talking about

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Speaker 1: today unless it was part of a case I was prosecuting.

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Speaker 1: I've never had this specific issue come up where you know,

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Speaker 1: the trigger person, the protugger person says, yes, I had

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Speaker 1: the gun in my hand at the time of the

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Speaker 1: fatal shooting, but I didn't pull the trigger. Okay. That

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Speaker 1: reminds me who was that Jackie sending? Was it Lindsay

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Speaker 1: Lohan that said, yes, that's cocaine in the pocket, but

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Speaker 1: those weren't my pants I had on. Okay, so how

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Speaker 1: do you say that, Yes, I had the gun in

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Speaker 1: my hand, but I didn't pull the trigger. Was it

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Speaker 1: Lindsay Lohan? Poor thing? Now she's all grown up and

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Speaker 1: happy and leading a normal life, and I had to

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Speaker 1: go bring up the cocaine and her pants. So, Dell Carson,

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Speaker 1: what do you make of it? Well, your expert is

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Speaker 1: absolutely right. Those guns are unusual today because when you

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Speaker 1: pull press the trigger and it's back. Yes, you do

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Speaker 1: what the cowboys always did, which was fanning the pistol. Okay, say, wait,

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Speaker 1: there you go. There you go with a gun phrase.

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Speaker 1: What's fanning the pistol? What you're waving it around like

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Speaker 1: a fan? No, I'm sorry, you'll hold it in your

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Speaker 1: hand and with your other hand, your opposite hand, you

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Speaker 1: strike the hammer all the way back and let it go.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah like that? Okay, yeah too, Fanny, and I

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Speaker 1: will simply tell you that Baldwin's problem is that he

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Speaker 1: runs his mouth too much. As you mentioned early on

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Speaker 1: in the show, you can't be talking to the press

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Speaker 1: well speaking of in sessant talking. Take a listen to

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Speaker 1: feel lipoff at GMA. Baldwin adamant he never pulled the trigger. Well,

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Speaker 1: the trigger wasn't put I didn't pull the trigger, So

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Speaker 1: you never pulled the trigger. No, no, no, no no.

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Speaker 1: I would never point a gun to anyone and pull

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Speaker 1: a trigger at them. Never. But this morning the FBI,

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Speaker 1: contending they're testing shows the trigger must have been pulled,

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Speaker 1: authority saying, based on all available information, including the absence

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Speaker 1: of obvious intent to cause harm or death, the manner

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Speaker 1: of death is best classified as accident. Your gun experts

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Speaker 1: will basically tell you and Alec Baldwin is not a

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Speaker 1: stranger to guns. You've done a lot of movies with

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Speaker 1: guns in them. That even though let's said the armorer

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Speaker 1: and I hand you the weapon, I tell you this

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Speaker 1: is a cold gun. It's not loaded. It's your responsibility.

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Speaker 1: Most experts say that you check the gun, you should

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Speaker 1: not point it at someone, let alone keeping your finger

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Speaker 1: on the trigger when it's not necessary. This was rehearsal, remember,

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Speaker 1: so all those things can add up to potential liability

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Speaker 1: on the part of the actor, but again it's going

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Speaker 1: to be up to the day to determine those factors.

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Speaker 1: As well as this new FBI report that claims that

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Speaker 1: the gun could not have quote accidentally misfired if you will,

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Speaker 1: that you had to pull the trigger for basically the

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Speaker 1: trigger to hit the bullet and the bullet to fire.

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Speaker 1: You're here also William Lane Janessee at Fox News talking

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Speaker 1: about the intricacies of the gun and what would be

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Speaker 1: required to pull the trigger. You're also hearing Alec Baldwin

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Speaker 1: saying I didn't pull the trigger. This is what he

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Speaker 1: says happens Take Lost our Friends at GMA in December,

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Speaker 1: Alec Baldwin describing the moment of that fatal accident. She's

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Speaker 1: guiding me through how she wants me to hold the

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Speaker 1: gun for this angle, and I draw the gun out

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Speaker 1: and I find a mark. So I take the gun

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Speaker 1: and I start to cock the gun. I'm not going

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Speaker 1: to pull the trigger. I said, do you see that

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Speaker 1: she was. We'll just cheat it down and tilt it

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Speaker 1: down a little bit like that, and I let me

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Speaker 1: go with the hammer of the gun, and the gun

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Speaker 1: goes off. I let go of the hammer of the gun,

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Speaker 1: the gun goes off. Alec Baldwin talks and asks for

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Speaker 1: a living, maybe talking too much, you know, to doctor

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Speaker 1: Angela Arnold, renowned psychiatrists joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction.

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Speaker 1: You can find her at Angela Arnold MD dot com,

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Speaker 1: Doctor Angie. You heard earlier Steve Wolf, the weapons safety

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Speaker 1: for film expert at Team wildfire dot com. He said

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Speaker 1: that there was no gun malfunction, that the shaker hydro

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Speaker 1: been pulled, which is an intentional act unless you're acting

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Speaker 1: really recklessly or negligently. I mean, it would be a

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Speaker 1: cold day in h E double l before I pointed

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Speaker 1: a weapon at anyone, even if I thought all the

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Speaker 1: chambers were empty. Oh, I agree with you, Nancy. And

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Speaker 1: you're taught that if anyone's ever gone to a gun range,

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I imagine Alec Baldwin has been taught

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Speaker 1: how to deal with a gun. And it's it's very

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Speaker 1: reckless behavior that he that he pulled the trigger and

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Speaker 1: shot this girl, or what Steve Wolfe said, simultaneously had

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Speaker 1: the hammer down and pulled the trigger at the same time. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: one of those teams ahead. I'm sorry. What I was

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Speaker 1: going to say is, Nancy, do you know what the

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Speaker 1: number one the most common motive for telling a lie

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Speaker 1: is to avoid punishment. I think we all ought to

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Speaker 1: think about that and just let it sink in. The

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Speaker 1: number one motive for telling a lie is to avoid punishment.

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Speaker 1: How do you know that, I've read about it. It's punishment, fear, punishment,

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Speaker 1: to avoid punishment. Interesting, doctor Angie, very interesting and your experience,

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Speaker 1: you know, doctor Angela Arnold. Let me give you a

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Speaker 1: good example. People, court watchers, legal egals believed that orenthal

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Speaker 1: James Simpson O J. Simpson told the same lie so

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Speaker 1: many times that he actually started believing it. I've never

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Speaker 1: accepted that theory. I think, you know inside what really happened.

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Speaker 1: Is there a chance that See replays this in his mind?

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Speaker 1: Balin actually thinks he didn't pullets. I think there's a

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Speaker 1: slight chance of that. None of us are ever going

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Speaker 1: to know, because he's not going to come forward with

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Speaker 1: that information. Just like O. J. Simpson would never come

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Speaker 1: forward with that information. I'll tell you another instance when

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Speaker 1: this happens, Nancy, When when people have affairs and they

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Speaker 1: never tell the truth. Are there are lots of instances

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Speaker 1: when people lie and lie and lie. They know what

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Speaker 1: the truth is underneath all of us, and it looks

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Speaker 1: like they believe it. Certainly looks like they believe that lie.

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Speaker 1: But I agree with you, Nancy. I don't think that

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Speaker 1: there's any way, unless they're psychotic, that they start to

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Speaker 1: actually believe that what they're saying is truth. I think

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Speaker 1: sometimes that they think in their minds they've covered all

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Speaker 1: their bases, and they get actually indignant that you are

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Speaker 1: not going them along with their big fat lie. Or

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Speaker 1: in his mind he may think, well, I didn't mean

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Speaker 1: to pull the trigger. I never intended to pull the trigger.

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Speaker 1: Though surely I didn't pull the trigger. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: but the FBI is something is saying something entirely different. Well,

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Speaker 1: this is how it all started. Take a listen to

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Speaker 1: the nine one one call from our friends at GMA.

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Speaker 1: People accidentally shot on a movie set by a prop done.

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Speaker 1: We need healthy media. The Santa Fe County District attorneys

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Speaker 1: saying nothing is off the table. There's no evidence that

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Speaker 1: this was intentional. This was clearly an accident, but perhaps

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Speaker 1: a criminal accident. Just because something is an accident doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean that a criminal act didn't occur to Dale. Carson,

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Speaker 1: high profile while you're out of jacksonal in former fed

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Speaker 1: with the FBI. Dale, That's why we have statutes such

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Speaker 1: as vehicular homicide, where you have a crash, it didn't

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Speaker 1: mean to have a crash, but you kill somebody. That's

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Speaker 1: vehicular homicide. I think this is. And there's also, however,

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Speaker 1: that's negligent homicide, which is a more of a voluntary manslaughter.

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Speaker 1: But there's also abandoned malignant heart, which means, for instance,

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Speaker 1: this is the example I would give a Jurydale, I

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Speaker 1: would say against him. Yes, for instance, you drive your

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Speaker 1: car at ninety mph into a street fair, you don't

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Speaker 1: even know anybody you mow down, but you have your

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Speaker 1: heart is abandoned toward the suffering or the risk of

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Speaker 1: injury up to other people. And pointing a gun at someone,

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Speaker 1: a real gun with real bullets in it is an

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Speaker 1: abandoned malignant heart. That is a murder charge right there. Well,

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Speaker 1: I don't intend to defend Alex Baldwin, but you're expert.

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Speaker 1: Wolf has got it. But let me explain it just

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Speaker 1: a little bit more. When you pick up a handgun

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Speaker 1: and you pull the hammer back, your hand naturally presses

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Speaker 1: the trigger. That's called negligence. And when that hand presses

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Speaker 1: the trigger just unintentionally, the hammer comes back and it

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Speaker 1: goes forward and fires. And that's why so many children

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Speaker 1: are killed with these handguns that have a semi automatic

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Speaker 1: hand guns that have a very light three pound trigger pull.

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Speaker 1: They can grab that gun and their hands naturally fit

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Speaker 1: around it and fire. But these guns have to be

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Speaker 1: coughed so they're safer. And if you know anything about guns,

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Speaker 1: you never I carried the guns since nineteen seventy two

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Speaker 1: every day, and they're dangerous. They will hurt the people

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Speaker 1: you care about if you're not really gun contract you know.

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Speaker 1: Steve Wolfe joining me from Team wildfire dot com. He's

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Speaker 1: a weapons safety for film expert. Steve. For those that

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Speaker 1: don't know what a trigger pull is, what is it? Simply? Well,

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Speaker 1: first of all, that's the widely used and incorrect term

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Speaker 1: for activating the trigger. Triggers are actually pressed, not hold,

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Speaker 1: you press the trigger. But what it means is to

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Speaker 1: apply pressure to the trigger to the degree that the

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Speaker 1: trigger moves and activates the linkages inside the gun that

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Speaker 1: release the sear and allow the hammer to fall. And

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Speaker 1: we say three pounds trigger pole, what does that main

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Speaker 1: versus It's just like when you press on a doorbell

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Speaker 1: and then the doorbell rings. You know, if you leaned

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Speaker 1: against the doorbell and it rings, you then say, oh,

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Speaker 1: I didn't press the doorbell. You know, you still caused

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Speaker 1: it to be pressed, whether you intended to or not.

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Speaker 1: In the doorbell ring. That's a really good comparison as

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Speaker 1: far as the weight of a trigger pole. If you

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Speaker 1: say I scot ten pound trigger pole, that means it

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Speaker 1: takes ten pounds of effort. It's the only way I

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Speaker 1: can explain it versus three pounds or one pound suggar pole.

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Speaker 1: That's exactly correct. Okay, And I know you're saying that's

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Speaker 1: not the correct verbiage, but I think it's a familiar

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Speaker 1: vernacular to say the weight of the trigger pole. Because

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Speaker 1: you've got a ten pound tuggar pull, it's a lot

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Speaker 1: harder to pull that trigger, which would indicate more a

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Speaker 1: forethought because you have to really pull. Guys, you're hearing

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Speaker 1: Alec Baldwin said, I didn't pull the trigger. Well, that

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Speaker 1: is not what the FBI is saying. Take a listen

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Speaker 1: our friends at gm an FBI lab report concluding that

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Speaker 1: of the four people they tested, the only prints that

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Speaker 1: were found on the ammunition box were from two of

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Speaker 1: rust armorer Hannah Gutierrez Reid's fingers. Back in April, authorities

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Speaker 1: released this video of Baldwin being questioned and the moment

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Speaker 1: he has told that Hutchins was dead and you have

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Speaker 1: some very unfortune is to tell you she didn't need it.

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Speaker 1: The bottom line right now is the medical examiner his

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Speaker 1: calling Hudgens death an accident. The question now is will

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Speaker 1: the FBI reports lead to maybe criminal charges against Baldwin.

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Speaker 1: It could be something like negligence or even involuntary manslaughter.

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Speaker 1: That will now be up to the Santa Fe District Attorney.

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Speaker 1: In addition toepfers at GMA. You just heard William Launchingness

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Speaker 1: at Fox News speaking, So I'm trying to figure out

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Speaker 1: Dave mac joining me Crime Online dot Com investigative reporter Dave.

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Speaker 1: The FBI has concluded that with the hammer at a

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Speaker 1: full cock position, the revolver could not fire without a

427
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:26,160
Speaker 1: pull of the trigger. I can't put it any more

428
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 1: simply than that. Now Baldwin's team is saying that is

429
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 1: a misstatement. But what will it take for the DA

430
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 1: to get off the dime and make some kind of

431
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 1: a resolution in this case, either drop it or move forward?

432
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:48,399
Speaker 1: Right now, the DA is waiting on a couple more reports. Really,

433
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:52,359
Speaker 1: what you got a crime lab report for Kauanica. What's

434
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 1: he waiting on? My understanding, the DA is waiting for

435
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,639
Speaker 1: the Sheriff's department to come back with their full report.

436
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 1: They've had three reports so far, and I think they're

437
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 1: waiting for one more report, and that will kind of

438
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 1: put a bow on it. They've already determined that the

439
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 1: shooting was accidental, but determining what if any crime occurred

440
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,119
Speaker 1: is what they're trying to determine, and that should be

441
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 1: done fairly quickly, Nancy, Like what they're going to present

442
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:20,680
Speaker 1: to the grand jury if anything. Well, you've heard Alec

443
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 1: Baldwin speaking out and speaking out and speaking out, and

444
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 1: remember this is not under police questioning, investigatory questioning at all.

445
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 1: He's speaking of his own volition now here he is

446
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,399
Speaker 1: at the Chris Cuomo Project. What is he saying, every

447
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,120
Speaker 1: single person on the set of the film knows what happened.

448
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,359
Speaker 1: And the people that are talking loudest about what happened

449
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 1: or speculating about what happened, we're not on the set

450
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,360
Speaker 1: of the film. The La Times, the Hollywood reporter, they

451
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:48,639
Speaker 1: talk on and on and on about what if this

452
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:53,120
Speaker 1: and if that, and have dined out on this. And

453
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 1: the thing that they have in common is nobody was there,

454
00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:59,919
Speaker 1: and everybody who was there they know exactly what happened.

455
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 1: And a big Zachary who's to blame? Blah blah blah,

456
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 1: well speaking of talk on and on and on. Who Okay,

457
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 1: that's Alec Baldwin speaking out again. But take a listen now.

458
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 1: He's saying, no one on the set is speaking out,

459
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,680
Speaker 1: and it saw the Hollywood reporter in the La Times

460
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 1: and the media who were not obviously on the set.

461
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 1: Take a listen to Tina patel Akkl, the armorer on

462
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 1: the set of the Ill Fated Rust movie, is speaking

463
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 1: out after a court fining by actor Alec Baldwin. In

464
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:37,160
Speaker 1: his claim, Baldwin says Hutchins told him to quote cock.

465
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 1: The gun rest armorer Hannah Tierres responded saying she was

466
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 1: never called to inspect a gun as was protocol. She

467
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 1: issued a statement saying, quote, mister Baldwin knew that he

468
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 1: could never point a firearm at crew members under any

469
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 1: circumstances and had a duty of safety to his fellow

470
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 1: crew members. Yet he did point the gun at Helena

471
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 1: before the fatal incident, against all rules and common sense.

472
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 1: To see wolf running us. He is the weapon's safety.

473
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 1: For film expert Steve, it sounds like a lot of

474
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 1: fingerpoint to me. Bobin saying I didn't pull the trigger.

475
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 1: The armorer who is in charge of weapons on a

476
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 1: set is saying he knew better. I find it really

477
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 1: hard to believe that Helena Hutchins told him to cut

478
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 1: the gun, And of course she can't be cross examined.

479
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 1: She's dead. What do you make of this? I think

480
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 1: she may have if she believed that it was a

481
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 1: cold gun and she was trying to line up her shot.

482
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 1: She was. It's credible that she was coaching him in

483
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 1: what position the gun should be held in order for

484
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 1: the shot to be You know what she visualized. But

485
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 1: what does that have to do with anything, Steve? I

486
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 1: didn't get it. Why does the position your point how

487
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 1: you're pointing the gun had to do with cocking the gun. Yeah,

488
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 1: as you said, we can't know what he was told

489
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 1: to do. But if someone tells you to do something

490
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:58,640
Speaker 1: that's unsafe, you use your judgment thing you don't do it,

491
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 1: or you'd say you'd tell Helena. Look, if you want

492
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 1: the gun pointed at the camera, Okay, step away from

493
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:06,520
Speaker 1: the camera and then I'll point it and you can

494
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 1: watch on the monitor and see if if that's the

495
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 1: shot that you want. But you don't point the gun

496
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 1: when there's a person in front of you. Time stories

497
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. You know, doctor Angie Arnold, we need

498
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 1: a psychiatrist. There's no way that Alec Baldwin does not

499
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 1: know about the fifth and emmic right to remain silent.

500
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:47,719
Speaker 1: Why is he continually going on Aaron and speaking well, Nancy,

501
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 1: I feel like he I don't know Alec Baldwin, but

502
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 1: seems like this is indicative of someone who is very

503
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 1: entitled and may think that he's a little bit better.

504
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 1: I've one and knows and he's above the law, and

505
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 1: somehow it's not. It's not thinking in his brain that

506
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 1: he did something wrong and he should keep his mouth shut.

507
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 1: And in my world that means that you're very entitled.

508
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 1: Maybe he's a bit of a narcissist, and I know

509
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 1: I use that word a lot, but it's but it's

510
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 1: it's a good word that describes behavior like us. He

511
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 1: is an incredible actor, there's no doubt about that. Yes,

512
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 1: here we have a dead body, not just a dead body,

513
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 1: a dead mother, a child growing out without without the

514
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 1: mom for the rest of his life, a life sentence.

515
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 1: So here is Baldwin. You just heard him talking about

516
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 1: the media going on and on, yes, where it's not

517
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 1: mine And here he is going on and on the

518
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 1: Christ Carolla project. You're familiar with what fanning a gun

519
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 1: is if you heard of that phrase fanning a gun, Yes,

520
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 1: but explain. If you pull the hammer back and you

521
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 1: don't lock the hammer. If you pull the hammer back

522
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 1: pretty far. In old Western movies, you'd see someone fan

523
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 1: the hammer of the gun. The hammer didn't lock. You

524
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 1: pulled it back to an extent where it would fire

525
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 1: the bullet without you pulling the trigger, without you locking

526
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 1: the hammer. The man who's the principal safety officer on

527
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 1: the set of the film declared that the gun was

528
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 1: safe when he handed it to me. The person who

529
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 1: was the principal safety officer of the film declared in

530
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 1: front of the entire assemblage, this is a cold gun. Okay,

531
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 1: Steve Wolf, what did he just say? Why is he

532
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 1: saying that? Does that help him or hurt him? And

533
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 1: it doesn't help him at all? Because no one can

534
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 1: tell you that the gun in your hand is safe.

535
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 1: That matters other than you. You're the one holding the gun.

536
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 1: Is your responsibility to make sure the gun is clear,

537
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 1: not to listen to what if someone else says who

538
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 1: may or may not checked the gun, or may or

539
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 1: may not know what they're doing. If he had an

540
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 1: armorer available to him, they sent her off to go

541
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 1: do something else. She's the one who could have checked

542
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 1: the gun and actually showed him what was inside so

543
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 1: that he would know the condition of the firearm in

544
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 1: his hand. But when you discharge a firearm, you are

545
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 1: responsible for the path of that bullet and all of

546
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 1: the damage it does. No one else you know. Joseph's

547
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 1: got Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University and also death investigator.

548
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 1: You have testified in front of mini jury trials. I

549
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 1: tell you, whenever I would handle a gun in front

550
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 1: of a jury. I would be so careful with it

551
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 1: because you know, even though I checked the chamber before

552
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 1: the jury would even come back in, I was always

553
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 1: worried that something would go wrong. That gun went off

554
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 1: in the middle of a trial. Number One, it can

555
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 1: hurt somebody. Number Two, I have a mistrial, I start

556
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 1: all over again. Plus I didn't want to alienate jurars,

557
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 1: so I would always when they would come in, go

558
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 1: pick up the gun in front of them, pull out

559
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 1: the chamber, look in it, put the chamber back, and

560
00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 1: then hold it facing down so the jury would not

561
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 1: be alarmed in any way. I just kind of really

562
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 1: hard to believe that you would pull back the hammer

563
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 1: and pull the trigger ever, unless you met shoot somebody.

564
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 1: Bigger question they're playing pretend, Nancy, who is that a

565
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:20,440
Speaker 1: BA specific place? This is a this is a movie shoot,

566
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:24,279
Speaker 1: this is not real life. What in the hill are

567
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 1: you doing with live ammunition? Oh? I'm glad you said that.

568
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:30,800
Speaker 1: That leads me to our cut twenty seven. This is

569
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:35,399
Speaker 1: Alan Ballwin again talking on the Chris Como project. Listen, now,

570
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 1: why did he say that if he didn't know, if

571
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 1: he hadn't checked. The point is all of us were

572
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 1: told that everything was cool and you can relax, and

573
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 1: we're working with a gun that's saved to reherswa bubbly.

574
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,400
Speaker 1: He explained it to me effectively that exactly what can

575
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 1: happen if you pull a hammer back and let it

576
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:52,239
Speaker 1: go if there's a live round. See, there's only one

577
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 1: question to ask here, who put a live round in

578
00:34:54,680 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 1: the gun? That's it. There is no other question to ask. Okay,

579
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 1: yes there is, and that is who pulled the trigger? Well,

580
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:13,359
Speaker 1: of course, the spokespeople for Baldwin as telling all the

581
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 1: media how they're misinterpreting this brand new FBI ballistics report.

582
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:22,319
Speaker 1: Good luck telling the FBI they're wrong. Okay, take a

583
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 1: listen to our cut thirty four our friends at Fox News.

584
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 1: A spokesman for Baldwin has already said that the media

585
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:33,120
Speaker 1: is misinterpreting the report right, that that we're getting it wrong.

586
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 1: But the second part is they do point out that

587
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 1: this gun malfunctioned during testing at the FBI. In fact,

588
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:43,279
Speaker 1: it was only actually successfully fired once and when it did,

589
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 1: part of the trigger seer basically sheared off and the

590
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:52,799
Speaker 1: firing pit hit the bullet and it fired. But they're

591
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 1: going to be able to look at that and go listen,

592
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 1: this was an unreliable weapon at the first place, and

593
00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 1: what my clients said or claimed could actually be true.

594
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 1: That's what they'll maintain. Sta Wolf, please interpret that. Well,

595
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 1: what the FBI did ended up being destructive testing. But

596
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,239
Speaker 1: the test that they did showed that the gun was

597
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 1: in fact working properly. It did not malfunction. It did

598
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:21,959
Speaker 1: not fire other than one the trigger was pressed as

599
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 1: would be expected. The FBI is testing was a little

600
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 1: heavy handed on this old gun, and they ended up

601
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 1: breaking it before they could further fire it. Why prior

602
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:35,320
Speaker 1: to having broken it, they will table to verify that

603
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 1: the gun had been in proper working Why how do

604
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:41,319
Speaker 1: you break a gun of firing it? Well, they were

605
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:46,400
Speaker 1: hitting the gun, would try to get the hammal forward

606
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,400
Speaker 1: and were unable to. Okay, well, you know what's going

607
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 1: to happen with that, Sta Wolf, if there ever is

608
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:54,000
Speaker 1: a trial, the defence is going to argue, well, the

609
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 1: FBI destroyed the gun on purpose, so we couldn't test it.

610
00:36:57,560 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 1: I can tell you that's going to happen. Well, it

611
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 1: already was test said, they had already they had already

612
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 1: confirmed that the safety stops worked properly on the hammer.

613
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 1: Yeys take listen our friends at Inside Edition, Baldwin's lawyer

614
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 1: says the FBI report is being misconstrued. Meanwhile, the criminal

615
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 1: investigation by the Albuquerque DA continues. I'm waiting and waiting

616
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 1: and waiting, and then the announcement's going to come about.

617
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:23,800
Speaker 1: Who is or isn't going to be charged? The process

618
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 1: is slow. I am deeply, deeply, deeply resentful and bitter

619
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 1: about how slow the process has been. The interview ends

620
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:34,399
Speaker 1: on a note of dark humor. I told people I'm

621
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:36,480
Speaker 1: gonna be a greeter in Vegas any day. Now. I'm

622
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 1: gonna remember me I was in Beetlejuice. How are you? Everybody? Please?

623
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 1: Table nine, Frank, Table nine, As long as you do

624
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:45,359
Speaker 1: it without a gun in your hand. We wait as

625
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:50,600
Speaker 1: justice unfolds. What will the district attorney do now, if anything?

626
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 1: Or is he simply starstruck? Nancy Grace corm story, Sidney All, goodbye,