1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:03,040 Speaker 1: Before we get started, please rate and review our show. 2 00:00:03,279 --> 00:00:10,039 Speaker 1: It helps people find us. On this episode of Sports 3 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: Illustrated Weekly, what do you know about psychedelics? Most likely 4 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:17,119 Speaker 1: what you've heard about drugs like LSD, magic, mushrooms or 5 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:20,639 Speaker 1: ketamine come from movies or anti drug campaigns. But what 6 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: if we told you that psychedelics might service therapeutics for 7 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: mental health issues? And a report from SI copy chief 8 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 1: Julie Kleigman, we hear from current and former athletes like 9 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: Aaron Rodgers, Kenny Stills, and Daniel Carcilo about the potential 10 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:41,639 Speaker 1: medical benefits and the attendant controversy and using drugs like ayahuasca, ketamine, 11 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 1: d m T, and psilocybin in an attempt at improving 12 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 1: mental health. I'm your host, John Gonzalez from Sports Illustrated 13 00:00:50,120 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: and I Heart Radio. This is Sports Illustrated Weekly. The 14 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 1: Dark's minds are closed and it's like the outline of 15 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:12,399 Speaker 1: this temple and it looked like an outline of a 16 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 1: human with like this, Uh it's gonna sound crazy, but 17 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:20,319 Speaker 1: with like this wolf skin like sheep head on it. 18 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:22,399 Speaker 1: And it was just like ascending to the top of 19 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 1: this pyramids. I'm seeing this and I'm like what, like, 20 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 1: I have no I don't understand what's going on. And 21 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 1: then the music changes, so it's almost like immediately my 22 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:41,039 Speaker 1: brain went to the next picture. It felt like some 23 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:44,679 Speaker 1: type of Buddhist temple. And I had this like bird's 24 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 1: eye view of this Buddhist temple that was like all concrete, 25 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 1: just like with fire coming out, and there's all this 26 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: like greenery all around. It was like I was in 27 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 1: a jungle. And then the music changed again and I 28 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 1: was inside of a temple and it was just pitch 29 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:09,079 Speaker 1: black dark and I wasn't afraid, but I was by myself. 30 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:11,640 Speaker 1: There was no light, and at that point in time, 31 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 1: I I didn't know if I was still like in 32 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 1: the room, because the academy can be so strong that 33 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:20,800 Speaker 1: it will make you feel like I am I even 34 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 1: still here? You know? Am I on another planet and 35 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 1: I another dimension? Like where am I? So I asked 36 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: the therapist like, hey, are you here? And you know, 37 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 1: she came over to me and she held my hand, 38 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 1: and when she held my hand, I knew that I 39 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:43,519 Speaker 1: was like still in the room. For her to come 40 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 1: and hold my hand and give me that piece allowed 41 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 1: me to go deeper into the experience and things started 42 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 1: to wear off, so I took the headphones off and 43 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:55,640 Speaker 1: we started to have a conversation about what I was seeing. 44 00:02:56,800 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 1: The Vision's former NFL player Kenny Stills, was seeing thanks 45 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 1: to ketamine, a psychedelic drug. Ketamine is completely legal in 46 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 1: the United States, and they're fortunate to be a problem 47 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 1: in the league either. But when media outlets reports stories 48 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 1: like this, they can get lost in the strange and 49 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:16,800 Speaker 1: fantastic things athletes like Kenny we're seeing that isn't as 50 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 1: important as what he was seeking. I was diagnosed with 51 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:23,519 Speaker 1: like a small case of depression into as in the 52 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:27,799 Speaker 1: sixteen and I like to referred to that time as 53 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 1: like being underneath a cloud. You know, it's just like 54 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: a dominant cloud because the one depression is just I 55 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 1: guess it's kind of scary, but I think when I 56 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 1: think about that time, I felt like it was just very, 57 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 1: very dark and cloud. Elite athlete mental healthcare overall is 58 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 1: having a moment of greater recognition and support, especially in 59 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 1: light of disclosures from current athletes on the biggest stages 60 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 1: like Naomi Osaka and Simone Biles. It is hard to 61 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 1: talk about mental health because people can't see it they 62 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 1: can't crasp it. For them, it's not an injury, but 63 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 1: it almost is, and it has a worse effect on you. 64 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 1: We're on a daily basis. Seeking therapy for mental health 65 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 1: problems is a widely accepted treatment, but there's still stigma 66 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 1: around taking medication of any kind for mental illness. Traditional 67 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 1: antidepressants often have side effects like mental fog and lethargy, 68 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 1: which don't appeal to athletes. That's why Ronan Levy, co 69 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:33,600 Speaker 1: founder and chairman of Field Trip, a company that provides 70 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 1: psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, I think psychedelics maybe more appealing. I 71 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:43,720 Speaker 1: had this image of the archetype of like a twenty 72 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:48,600 Speaker 1: year old brow from Pittsburgh, as a person who would 73 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 1: probably rather be dead than ever caught in a therapist office. 74 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:54,919 Speaker 1: But then I asked myself, critic convinced that person to 75 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:57,480 Speaker 1: try mushrooms once? And the answer I came back to 76 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:00,279 Speaker 1: is probably yes. And if you get some and to 77 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 1: have that kind of spiritual opening experience just once, then 78 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 1: you open the door for much more meaningful conversations around 79 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 1: mental and emotional health and world being. But psychedelics carry 80 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 1: their own baggage to thanks to a multitude of anti 81 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:18,600 Speaker 1: drug campaigns from seventies p s as to the DARE 82 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:23,840 Speaker 1: program from the nineteen nineties. This is your brain on drugs, 83 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 1: any questions. Daniel Poneman, an NBA agent from Beyond Athlete Management, 84 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 1: knows what places psychedelics hold in the cultural imagination. Some 85 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:38,599 Speaker 1: people still look at it as like something that crazy 86 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 1: hippies do, or you know something you pre parents of 87 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: what stock and don't recognize these is legitimate life saving 88 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 1: medicines and tell someone over and over points and statistics 89 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:52,480 Speaker 1: and the clinical studies show how many lives these can save. 90 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:56,160 Speaker 1: But people can still widely stigmatized. So I think, yeah, 91 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 1: there are athletes that I know who have had life 92 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 1: changing experiences with these medicines, but only a few of 93 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: them are brave enough to speak out if they're being stigmatized. 94 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 1: When I started researching for this story, that stigma made 95 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:15,599 Speaker 1: it difficult to find any players or former players willing 96 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:19,480 Speaker 1: to talk about their psychedelic use. Then on August three, 97 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: Aaron Rodgers went on a podcast and spoke about using ayahuasca, 98 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 1: a psychoactive tea containing the hallucinogenic drug d MT. To me, 99 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:31,600 Speaker 1: one of the core tenets of your mental health is 100 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:36,039 Speaker 1: that self love and that's what Iwaska did for me. 101 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:40,160 Speaker 1: It was help me see how I'm gonna say love 102 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 1: myself and what better way to work on my mental 103 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 1: health and too, to have an experience like that back 104 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: to back NFL m v P. Aaron Rodgers was a 105 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:55,840 Speaker 1: strong endorsement for psychedelics, no doubt, but in the wake 106 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 1: of his confession, the media reacted in a way that 107 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:03,280 Speaker 1: showcases exactly why players find psychedelic use so hard to 108 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 1: talk about. D MT is classified as a Schedule one drug, 109 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: the same as heroin in ecstasy. Trust me on this, 110 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 1: Roger Goodell is not going to be good with the 111 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 1: way that you went about finding your true self. So 112 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 1: Aaron drank a psychedelic tea that made him hallucinate and yak, 113 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 1: and he said it took him to a different realm. Often, 114 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 1: mental health problems that would compel an athlete to seek 115 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 1: the kind of treatment that psychedelics may provide are shrugged 116 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 1: off by those looking in from the outside, a Simone 117 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: Bile said earlier in the show. When people can't see 118 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: the trauma, it's harder for them to grasp. But even 119 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 1: if fans watch their favorite players get smashed up, nightly. 120 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 1: They might not understand what kind of trauma they're trying 121 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: to escape with psychedelics. We started hitting at four years old, 122 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 1: so I started essentially changing my brain chemistry in for 123 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 1: the worst. That's former NHL enforcer Daniel Carsilo, a man 124 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 1: whose job it was to hit and be hit. Meanwhile, 125 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 1: Carsilo is growing some rights on his own. Garrett Little 126 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 1: Balmar Challenge of March. I got my seventh concussion and 127 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 1: these symptoms were just exasperated. I wanted nothing to do 128 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 1: with my kid. I was isolating. I didn't want to 129 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 1: go to the ring. We want to Stanley Cup. That year, 130 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 1: I didn't go to Banner Raising. I retired pretty abruptly. 131 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 1: I wanted nothing to do with any of the people 132 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:40,319 Speaker 1: in hockey, to be honest. CTE, or chronic traumatic encephalopathy, 133 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 1: is a progressive brain condition linked to repeated blows to 134 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 1: the head and concussions. Ct E may cause mental health 135 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: and behavioral issues, including depression, anxiety, impulsivity, and aggression. Daniel 136 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 1: Carsilo had the kind of blows the head that leads 137 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 1: to CTE and had early symptoms of the side effects, 138 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 1: so he started looking for solutions. Just PhD biochemists and 139 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 1: my former teammate met me at this farm and and 140 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 1: surprised me with a large dose of pilocybin. It was 141 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 1: the most difficult two and a half hours of my life. 142 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 1: But what it did was it woke up my brain, 143 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 1: and it woke up my serotonin system and my nervous 144 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: system and my brain hemispheres that were definitely shut down 145 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 1: through emotional and physical trauma. And then I went home 146 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: with a micro dost regiment because I knew that it's like, 147 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 1: can't just be high doats, because I've had so much 148 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:46,840 Speaker 1: sustained trauma that I need to continue to introduce this 149 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 1: on a perception level. Psilocybin or what we'd called magic mushrooms, 150 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 1: worked so well for Carsilo that he started we sawn 151 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 1: A Health. His focus is now on developing a holistic 152 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 1: wellness program for people with traumatic brain injuries that will 153 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 1: include psilocybin treatment. But the success of his business, which 154 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:11,600 Speaker 1: is attached to names like Mike Tyson and Julianna Painia, 155 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 1: might Hinge on garnering FDA approval for clinical trials of 156 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:19,560 Speaker 1: psilocybin in the US out of the classic psychedelics like 157 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:26,959 Speaker 1: LSD or acid psilocybin or magic mushrooms, mescaline in pyote, 158 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:32,680 Speaker 1: d m T in ayahuasca, and ketamine. Only ketamine is legal. 159 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 1: This means that studies showing their efficacy and dealing with 160 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 1: everything from depression to CTE are slow coming, and the 161 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:46,319 Speaker 1: science community is divided. It is kind of it's interesting 162 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 1: back in source that I see in psychedelic research of 163 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 1: kind of one group describing these is kind of going 164 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:57,959 Speaker 1: to change the world and change psychotry forever in one 165 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 1: group that's psychic that work and it's all a scam. 166 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 1: That's Courtney Campbell Walton, the Mackenzie post Doctoral Research Fellow 167 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 1: at the University of Melbourne. He co wrote the article 168 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 1: Advancing Elite Athlete Mental Health Treatment with Psychedelic Assisted Psychotherapy. 169 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 1: As far as I away, that's the first taper that's 170 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 1: ever um discussed psychedelic work in athletes populations. My interest 171 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 1: at the moment are very much like, how could this work, 172 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 1: how's this going to look in the future, and also 173 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 1: kind of preparing for the facts that it it likely 174 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:39,199 Speaker 1: will happen. Those are the big questions right now. One 175 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:45,080 Speaker 1: does it work anecdotally? Kenny Stills, Daniel Carcilo and others 176 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 1: say yes, but what does the science say. These trials 177 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 1: are so controlled, there is so much planning, there's so 178 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 1: much regulation, there's so much exclusion of you know, anyone, 179 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 1: that they might be some issues. But it's a very 180 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 1: different setting to to someone who's read an article online 181 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 1: about how someone was in a trial and took psychedelics 182 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 1: and they've their depressions cured, and so then they want 183 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 1: to go and do it themselves. You don't want to 184 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 1: shut these things down because they're exciting and promising and 185 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:21,320 Speaker 1: it looks like they could be something there. But at 186 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 1: the same time, I'm very cautious about being like, yeah, 187 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 1: they're amazing if everyone should go and give it a go. 188 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:32,440 Speaker 1: So the jury is out, but results are promising, which 189 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:36,199 Speaker 1: brings up the second question, how would psychedelics even work 190 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 1: in sports? In my opinion, we're a long way, if 191 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 1: from athletes being able to do this outside of trials, 192 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 1: and then in sport, there's a whole bunch of other 193 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 1: things we need to think about. Do athletes using these 194 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:54,319 Speaker 1: substances have negative side effects on their performance? That's obviously 195 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 1: going to be a really key factor in terms of 196 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 1: whether athletes want to engage in these things, whether teams, clubs, 197 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 1: organizations are supportive of ethletes using these substances, and on 198 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: the other hand, is you know, if there are positive 199 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: side effects outside of mental health. Obviously one improve mental health, 200 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 1: but if these things have, for whatever reason, positive effects 201 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: on more kind of physical attributes, then that's kind of 202 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:24,080 Speaker 1: a whole another kettle of fish that that kind of 203 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: needs to be explored. So we need to do a 204 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:29,439 Speaker 1: whole bunch of trials to really understand one of the 205 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 1: kind of other effects on top of mental health that 206 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 1: are relevant to sport. I reached out to major men's 207 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 1: and women's pro sports leagues, as well as the International 208 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 1: Olympic Committee to determine whether psychedelic use is allowed. The 209 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 1: World Anti Doping Agency, which governs Olympics policy, fans m 210 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 1: d m A from use during competition, but doesn't mention 211 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:00,120 Speaker 1: other psychedelics. The NBA and w n B a to 212 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 1: prohibit ketamine LSD and m d m A in their 213 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 1: Drugs of Abuse category. MLB prohibits those and also ayahuasca, psilocybin, 214 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 1: and mescaline. None of the other leagues contacted responded with 215 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 1: policy information, so right now it's not looking good. For 216 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 1: psychedelics and sports. Kenny Stills doesn't think the NFL would 217 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 1: be receptive to the idea either. The league has probably 218 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 1: done a good job of keeping those conversations too far 219 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 1: up in out of the headlines. But um, I mean, 220 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 1: obviously don't just takema around psychedelics and being more like 221 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 1: a hippie drug and people really just not understanding the 222 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 1: benefits of the different plant medicines that are out there 223 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: and think of how they can out. Generally, leagues are 224 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 1: conservative and reactionary, like cannabis before it. Professional sports won't 225 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 1: green light psychedelics until a sentiment of the people is 226 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 1: overwhelmingly for it. Psychedelics will have to shake off that 227 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: taboo stigma. I've started to see more people now talk 228 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 1: about to you see the Netflix documentaries that have come 229 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 1: out for the past couple of years. But yeah, there's 230 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 1: just the stigma around psychedelics and just people I think 231 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: honestly are afraid to be transparent about their experiences with them. 232 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 1: The only way that you move the needles through celebrities 233 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 1: or athletes, the only way you be stigmatize is when 234 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 1: they start doing it. The rest of everybody else starts 235 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 1: doing it, right, I think for the athlete community who 236 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 1: may feel that same kind of resistance to conventional talk 237 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 1: therapy and cognitive the annual therapy, then there's certainly a glow, 238 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 1: a real psychedelics that they can seem cool, and I 239 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 1: think that's going to help people take a step into 240 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 1: exploring this, whereas other paths they may have been off limits. 241 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, and a reminder to please rate and 242 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 1: review the show. It helps people find us. Sports Illustrated 243 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 1: Weekly is a production of Sports Illustrated and I Heart Radio. 244 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I 245 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your 246 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 1: favorite shows. And for more Sports Illustrated's best stories and podcasts, 247 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 1: visit SI dot com. This episode of Sports Illustrated Weekly 248 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 1: was produced by Jordan Rizzieri, Jessica your Moski, and Isaac Lee, 249 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 1: who is also our sound engineer. Our senior producers are 250 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 1: Dan Bloom and Harry sward Out. Our executive producers are 251 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 1: Scott Brody and me John Gonzalez, and our theme song 252 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 1: is by Nolan Schneider.