WEBVTT - The Department of Justice V Google Ads: Part 4 0:00:02.440 --> 0:00:03.800 Al Zone Media. 0:00:04.960 --> 0:00:07.600 Hello and welcome to Better Offline. I am, as usual 0:00:07.680 --> 0:00:21.840 your host ed Zichrono. Today I'm joined again for the 0:00:21.920 --> 0:00:26.000 last episode of our DOJV Google Ads series Ariel Garcia 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:29.680 of Check My Ads and of course Jason Kent of DCN. 0:00:29.960 --> 0:00:32.919 Thank you so much for coming. What's happened in this 0:00:33.040 --> 0:00:34.879 week's This Saga? 0:00:35.280 --> 0:00:39.519 So this week we had the opportunity to listen to 0:00:39.720 --> 0:00:43.519 Google's defense. They I haven't done the tally yet, I 0:00:43.560 --> 0:00:47.920 intend to, but the vast majority of witnesses they called 0:00:48.000 --> 0:00:51.440 were people that either have been paid or still are 0:00:51.720 --> 0:00:52.760 paid by Google. 0:00:53.800 --> 0:00:55.319 So that includes people like. 0:00:55.960 --> 0:01:01.160 Current employees, small businesses that get big grants from Google, 0:01:01.440 --> 0:01:07.120 and their expert witnesses. The most notable one is doctor 0:01:07.280 --> 0:01:14.160 Mark Israel, who is at a consultancy called Compass Lexicon. 0:01:14.760 --> 0:01:16.800 He's there, he was their lead economists. 0:01:16.880 --> 0:01:19.800 So, if you remember, we've talked about how Google is 0:01:19.840 --> 0:01:23.160 trying to argue that ad tech is just one big, 0:01:23.240 --> 0:01:30.040 two sided market that connects advertisers and impressions. 0:01:29.440 --> 0:01:30.360 Not even publishers. 0:01:30.360 --> 0:01:36.160 Publicers don't exist, Okay, So that two sided market argument 0:01:36.360 --> 0:01:41.200 comes from Mark Israel's work, or it was his expert 0:01:41.280 --> 0:01:44.120 report that really defined that argument and. 0:01:44.200 --> 0:01:47.640 For the listener's sake, what is this man? Like? What 0:01:47.680 --> 0:01:48.880 does he do for a living? 0:01:49.440 --> 0:01:55.640 Yeah, so that's what the DOJ wanted to know. So apparently. 0:01:56.520 --> 0:01:59.840 He makes eighty percent of his money and spends a 0:02:00.280 --> 0:02:03.440 five percent of his time being an expert witness, so 0:02:03.560 --> 0:02:08.400 literally getting cool paid to say what people want him 0:02:08.440 --> 0:02:10.200 to say cool. 0:02:10.280 --> 0:02:13.880 So is that like a job that anyone could do? 0:02:13.600 --> 0:02:17.519 Just wondering, but in all serious this looking up this 0:02:17.720 --> 0:02:21.360 wonderful man's He has a PhD in economics from Stanford, 0:02:21.560 --> 0:02:24.360 MSc in economics from the University of Wisconsin Madison, so 0:02:24.480 --> 0:02:28.480 big ten BOYBA in economics from Illinois Wesleyan University. This 0:02:28.560 --> 0:02:32.000 man's job is just having a job. It's just like 0:02:32.120 --> 0:02:35.440 existing and saying stuff that people asking, like, come on, man, 0:02:35.480 --> 0:02:37.400 you can't do this, Well, I mean you can, and 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:37.840 he does. 0:02:38.560 --> 0:02:38.640 He. 0:02:39.080 --> 0:02:41.519 I think it's worth noting he was the expert witness 0:02:41.520 --> 0:02:44.040 for Google at the search trial too that they just lost, 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:47.639 and and he's done like fifty or so different cases. 0:02:48.040 --> 0:02:50.600 He's also Albertson's and Kroger, which is playing out in 0:02:50.639 --> 0:02:53.280 the grocery store space. So yeah, this is his full 0:02:53.320 --> 0:02:53.760 time job. 0:02:54.360 --> 0:02:58.919 Wait, so he's in the Albatsons and Kroger case as well. Yeah, Jesus, 0:02:59.400 --> 0:03:02.079 so this man's this man's job is just like kind 0:03:02.120 --> 0:03:04.800 of being a sock puppet, but like a really well 0:03:04.800 --> 0:03:05.440 paid one. 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:08.919 Your words. But as somebody sitting there listening to him testify, 0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:11.040 I guess I would say, and this happens a lot 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:14.280 of time, I think with economists not to be critical 0:03:14.320 --> 0:03:17.000 of the whole field. But it wasn't connected to the 0:03:17.000 --> 0:03:21.040 real world at all, And so it was like, you know, 0:03:21.160 --> 0:03:24.960 an argument that nobody that understands the actual advertising business 0:03:24.960 --> 0:03:28.639 would agree with, like, yeah, it's one big, two sided 0:03:28.760 --> 0:03:32.720 market that also competes with Reddit and Facebook and all 0:03:32.760 --> 0:03:36.800 these other you know, large platforms, as if they're just 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:38.920 directly similar and comparable. 0:03:39.000 --> 0:03:42.800 So, and how did his augument do with the judge? 0:03:43.600 --> 0:03:46.200 I didn't think it did well at all. I mean, 0:03:46.320 --> 0:03:50.840 as he was spinning the yarn in the beginning it 0:03:51.760 --> 0:03:53.880 I could see where somebody could be convinced that they 0:03:53.880 --> 0:03:57.200 didn't really understand the business. But then once the just 0:03:57.240 --> 0:04:00.920 Department did their cross, it really fell apart in my mind. 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:02.360 I don't know if if you have a different point 0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:02.840 of view. 0:04:02.880 --> 0:04:04.640 Yeah, no, I agree with that. 0:04:04.840 --> 0:04:07.480 And you could tell because at one point, when he 0:04:07.640 --> 0:04:12.240 was talking about one of the alleged reasonable substitutes that 0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:16.400 publishers have, he was basically saying that a publisher that 0:04:16.720 --> 0:04:19.400 has a website and sells ads on their website can 0:04:19.560 --> 0:04:23.919 just move those ads to their app, right, And so 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:27.520 the judge asks like, well, what if the publisher doesn't 0:04:27.600 --> 0:04:30.640 have an app, and he's like, well, then there would 0:04:30.640 --> 0:04:32.800 be they would need to build one. She's like, well 0:04:32.800 --> 0:04:35.120 that would cost money, no, And he's like, well, yeah, 0:04:35.160 --> 0:04:37.000 in that instance, they would need to pay money to 0:04:37.000 --> 0:04:40.000 build an app. That was the only and that, like, 0:04:40.040 --> 0:04:43.279 that was the simplest pushback point. We're not addressing the 0:04:43.320 --> 0:04:47.200 fact that, like the amount of people that end up 0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:50.080 on your website versus the amount of readers that will 0:04:50.120 --> 0:04:52.520 download an app are not the same. We got to 0:04:52.560 --> 0:04:55.599 that today when the DJ called their rebuttal witness. But yeah, 0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:59.400 that's the type of flavor that we that we got. 0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:03.799 And if the judge was not already skeptical from the direct, 0:05:04.040 --> 0:05:09.600 definitely the DOJ absolutely, I literally might. My immediate commentary 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:14.160 was that the DJ mopped the floor with him so so. 0:05:14.400 --> 0:05:16.520 And just to be clear, his argument was, if you 0:05:16.600 --> 0:05:20.120 don't like Google's heavy monopoly. You could build your own app. 0:05:20.400 --> 0:05:24.680 That's got yes and that, and it gets more wild, 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:30.400 Like at one point he was saying that if if 0:05:30.800 --> 0:05:37.840 a publisher's ad server is is bad, then advertisers might 0:05:38.040 --> 0:05:42.760 move money to Facebook. Like these two things have nothing 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:45.120 to do so if the tool a publisher uses to 0:05:45.160 --> 0:05:48.600 manage their campaigns as bad, an advertiser might move money 0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:49.440 to social media. 0:05:49.520 --> 0:05:52.240 These It was just completely unhinged. 0:05:53.400 --> 0:05:55.360 This man is meant to be smart. That feels like 0:05:55.400 --> 0:05:57.839 a dumb guy augment that that doesn't even make technically. 0:05:58.120 --> 0:06:00.680 Is this just Google's attempt to just kind of obfiscate 0:06:00.839 --> 0:06:02.520 things and try and muddy the waters. 0:06:03.000 --> 0:06:06.880 So I think I think I'm speculating, but I think 0:06:06.920 --> 0:06:11.520 what he was trying to drive at is that on 0:06:11.680 --> 0:06:18.000 some level, a good product on one side has implications 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:20.400 for the other side. It's part of this bigger argument 0:06:20.440 --> 0:06:24.120 that they're trying to make for why Google being on 0:06:24.200 --> 0:06:27.800 both sides of the market of their alleged you know, 0:06:27.880 --> 0:06:30.880 two sided market is good that when they do something 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:33.520 good for advertisers, the knock on effects are good for 0:06:33.560 --> 0:06:37.640 publishers and vice versa. What the DOJ points out is 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:42.200 like okay, but that means ostensibly it can't always just 0:06:42.320 --> 0:06:45.599 be about the advertisers, right, And we didn't really have 0:06:45.640 --> 0:06:46.760 a good answer for that. 0:06:47.839 --> 0:06:50.280 So we're at the end of this trial, though there 0:06:50.279 --> 0:06:54.120 are closing arguments in NOVEMBI mentioned before the call. How 0:06:54.160 --> 0:06:55.839 did the rest of the last week or so go? 0:06:56.080 --> 0:06:59.440 Was it mostly just Google attempting to muddy more like 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:02.159 they come up with new arguments of any kind. 0:07:03.240 --> 0:07:07.240 There's nothing. I didn't hear anything really new, and I 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:12.040 think really the fireworks were mostly today as the just 0:07:12.080 --> 0:07:16.760 department brought in one of the publisher witnesses for a rebuttal, 0:07:16.840 --> 0:07:19.160 was the only rebuttal witness, and there was a lot 0:07:19.160 --> 0:07:20.960 of back and forth about whether or not he was 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:24.640 gonna be able to testify again, but he basically, you 0:07:24.680 --> 0:07:28.960 know those arguments that Mark Israel Matthew Wheatland from the 0:07:29.040 --> 0:07:31.800 Daily Mail senior executive Daily Mail, and so each of 0:07:31.840 --> 0:07:34.480 those arguments that Israel had made, they kind of cleaned 0:07:34.480 --> 0:07:37.080 that up, I think the apartment and made it clear 0:07:37.160 --> 0:07:39.600 that that wasn't wasn't in the real world, that wasn't 0:07:39.600 --> 0:07:41.640 an issue. And but it got to the point then 0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:45.480 during when the when Google was doing it's cross where 0:07:45.480 --> 0:07:47.560 it got. Really, it's kind of absurd if you were 0:07:47.560 --> 0:07:49.240 in the room. I feel like the judge even knew 0:07:49.240 --> 0:07:52.040 it was absurd where they were, you know, if he 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:54.960 was cleaning up that that it wasn't a real world 0:07:55.000 --> 0:07:57.440 situation that you could just, you know, shut down your 0:07:57.440 --> 0:07:59.840 website if things weren't working well with the Google monopoly 0:07:59.880 --> 0:08:04.800 and launch an app. And then Google's attorney started to 0:08:04.800 --> 0:08:07.840 compare the number of clicks it takes to type in 0:08:07.880 --> 0:08:13.400 a website, like literally down to the https colon slash 0:08:13.440 --> 0:08:18.080 slash versus downloading an app, and was actually comparing how 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:20.920 much time it takes to do the two different things. 0:08:21.440 --> 0:08:23.520 And it was just I could understand how we were 0:08:23.520 --> 0:08:27.160 gaining that literal on the last day in the last witness. 0:08:27.800 --> 0:08:31.440 So was the argument the apps are easier to launch 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:32.360 them websites. 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:34.880 It felt like they were going back to Google's classic 0:08:35.000 --> 0:08:38.119 argument of you know, of efficiency and you know, competitions 0:08:38.120 --> 0:08:40.319 a click away, and you know, and all these arguments 0:08:40.320 --> 0:08:43.360 about how quickly you can do different things. So it 0:08:43.480 --> 0:08:44.800 was not working in my opinion. 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:47.640 So, I mean in Google's world where they can just 0:08:47.760 --> 0:08:50.800 kind of like coerce their users and customers to do 0:08:50.920 --> 0:08:55.440 whatever they want them to. Maybe that that, maybe that works, 0:08:55.480 --> 0:08:58.040 but it doesn't really matter. How If it's the same 0:08:58.080 --> 0:09:00.960 amount of clicks for a consumer, for a user to 0:09:01.000 --> 0:09:03.240 download an app as it is to go to a website, 0:09:03.400 --> 0:09:06.760 no one can force them to download the app, right. 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:10.239 But yes, I completely agree. It was just ridiculous. 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:14.400 It also was like, because she decided to go there, 0:09:15.040 --> 0:09:19.400 it kept every time Wheatland went to talk, she had 0:09:19.400 --> 0:09:21.439 to cut him off because he was trying. 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:23.360 To You could tell me she being the judge here. 0:09:23.679 --> 0:09:24.240 No, no, no. 0:09:24.320 --> 0:09:29.320 Every time Wheatland went to talk beyond a yes or no, 0:09:29.679 --> 0:09:35.240 Google's council needed to cut him off because she probably 0:09:35.320 --> 0:09:37.720 realized that he was going to say, well no, Like 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:40.079 he kept saying, that's one way to get to a website, 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:43.440 and obviously, you know, search results would be another one, 0:09:43.800 --> 0:09:44.040 you know. 0:09:44.840 --> 0:09:47.280 So it was just a very odd. 0:09:48.120 --> 0:09:50.720 It really does feel and I said this last episode, 0:09:50.800 --> 0:09:53.240 it doesn't feel like Google came in with an argument. 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:56.960 I'm astonished because these are meant to For years, we've 0:09:56.960 --> 0:10:00.240 seen these companies as these kind of mammoth organizations that 0:10:00.280 --> 0:10:03.360 can do what they want. But in front of a judge, 0:10:03.400 --> 0:10:05.119 they just seemed kind of pathetic. 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:10.320 I think that the facts were just so not on 0:10:10.440 --> 0:10:15.080 their side that they really struggled. There was not one 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:20.200 witness that they called where on cross examination, DJ didn't 0:10:20.240 --> 0:10:24.640 manage to surface something that set Google back a little 0:10:24.640 --> 0:10:27.920 bit or introduced something new that was bad, you know 0:10:27.960 --> 0:10:28.440 what I mean. 0:10:28.520 --> 0:10:30.160 They just they didn't have very much. 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:35.480 And so that's why their experts, and specifically Mark Israel, 0:10:35.520 --> 0:10:39.040 because the other experts that Google called their analysis relied 0:10:39.080 --> 0:10:43.400 heavily on Israel's report, right, so it was really hinging 0:10:43.400 --> 0:10:49.439 on Israel. I expected that there would be something at least. 0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:53.560 Somewhat compelling there, and when I. 0:10:53.559 --> 0:10:55.920 Saw that there was just absolutely nothing there, I mean, 0:10:56.280 --> 0:10:59.160 to me, that was the nail on the coffin for 0:10:59.200 --> 0:10:59.679 their case. 0:11:09.520 --> 0:11:12.880 It's remarkable. It also kind of suggests that these other 0:11:13.040 --> 0:11:18.199 antitrust cases might be similarly chaotic, because you would think that, 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:21.040 I think what is really stunning me, other than the 0:11:21.040 --> 0:11:24.199 fact that just kind of incompetent is you'd think they'd 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:27.440 have planned for this, Like Jason, you've been getting you 0:11:27.520 --> 0:11:30.640 covered the search trial. Did they have a better argument there? 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:35.040 They did, and you know, I think their argument there 0:11:35.280 --> 0:11:38.240 was you know that they still had kind of a 0:11:38.360 --> 0:11:41.280 giant elf in the room that they were spending you know, 0:11:41.440 --> 0:11:44.079 upwards of twenty twenty five billion dollars a year for 0:11:44.280 --> 0:11:46.680 the search slot. And you know, if they were the 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:49.000 best product out there and consumers, why it naturally then 0:11:49.440 --> 0:11:50.760 why they have to pay all that money? That was 0:11:50.800 --> 0:11:53.160 the big help in the room. But they at least 0:11:53.160 --> 0:11:56.440 could make arguments about exclusionary conduct and a few other 0:11:56.480 --> 0:11:59.680 things that they'll try to make in their appeal. I 0:11:59.679 --> 0:12:01.400 don't think they're going to win because the appeal goes 0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:04.600 to the same as in the same circuit as USB Microsoft, 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:07.560 which it relied on. So but they, you know, it 0:12:07.600 --> 0:12:10.320 was more down to illegal arguments and they didn't have 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:13.040 the same issues with deletion of emails and all that 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:15.160 stuff in the same way that came out in this case. 0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:18.040 So yeah, I you know, one thing and I can 0:12:18.080 --> 0:12:20.800 thinking a lot about is. I mean, as much as 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:23.240 you know they've got, it feels like, you know, almost 0:12:23.240 --> 0:12:26.640 every major law firm at their fingertips when they need them, 0:12:26.679 --> 0:12:30.360 and experts and paid experts, et cetera. It's a really 0:12:30.400 --> 0:12:33.680 complicated chess game when you've got remedies going on in 0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:36.080 California from your app store loss, and you've got the 0:12:36.120 --> 0:12:39.160 Search case remedies going on in DC and all these 0:12:39.160 --> 0:12:43.800 things are you know, dividing executive time within the company, 0:12:44.240 --> 0:12:46.240 and you also are trying to manage, you know, your 0:12:46.280 --> 0:12:48.439 business at the same time you've got Sundar Forsha going 0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:50.760 on TV a couple of nights ago, you know, to 0:12:50.800 --> 0:12:53.280 say that you know, everything's all good, right, It's it's 0:12:53.280 --> 0:12:55.959 a very complicated chess game no matter who you are. 0:12:56.600 --> 0:12:58.320 And do you think, what do you think these cases 0:12:58.320 --> 0:12:59.640 are kind of splitting their attention? 0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:01.960 That would be my I mean, it has to be 0:13:02.000 --> 0:13:04.040 at some point, and you you kind of see that 0:13:04.080 --> 0:13:06.520 play out in the real world, you know, when you've 0:13:06.559 --> 0:13:08.439 got you know, I saw in the Search case. I 0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:10.240 think it was like one of the last days where 0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:13.440 you had Kent Walker, the chief legal officer at Google, 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:16.199 you know, in the front row and then like literally 0:13:16.240 --> 0:13:19.000 move up to the lawyer's table, you know, which was 0:13:19.080 --> 0:13:21.959 kind of unusual to try to whisper to some of 0:13:22.000 --> 0:13:24.640 the lawyers in real time. So like he's gained involved 0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:27.840 right in the actual arguments at the trial as Search 0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:30.720 cases weighing down, And I sensed that a little bit today, 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:32.640 Ari L I don't know if you sens this, you 0:13:32.640 --> 0:13:35.559 were in the courtroom, but like there was shuffling around 0:13:35.960 --> 0:13:39.200 by various Google and and their law firms. 0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:41.679 Folks. You know when you say shuffling around, is he 0:13:41.800 --> 0:13:43.480 just handing papers to the Yeah? 0:13:43.480 --> 0:13:46.160 I mean there was like almost many huddles happening, you know, 0:13:46.800 --> 0:13:50.360 you know, a borderline close to disturbing the judge. But 0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:52.480 you had, you know, three or four people leaning back 0:13:52.520 --> 0:13:54.559 and forth talking to each other, and then people running 0:13:54.600 --> 0:13:56.560 out of the room and stuff. It was it was 0:13:56.720 --> 0:13:59.160 like they were, you know, dealing, They were trying to 0:13:59.280 --> 0:14:02.160 escalate and deal with things in real time because things 0:14:02.160 --> 0:14:02.800 weren't going. 0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:05.000 Well, I'm losing this trial. 0:14:05.480 --> 0:14:10.959 Like their whole team was there today like that. Everyone 0:14:11.000 --> 0:14:12.640 knew that today was going to be the last day. 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:16.520 So Google's entire team was there. And I'll also say 0:14:17.160 --> 0:14:20.760 we knew it was a big team between like their 0:14:21.040 --> 0:14:24.920 associates and their comms people and stuff, but I didn't 0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:27.640 know quite how big it was. They they filled like 0:14:27.800 --> 0:14:31.120 the entire middle section of the courtroom, which is the 0:14:31.240 --> 0:14:36.160 largest section I'd say they have. They had three times 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:39.960 the amount of people there that dooj did. And because 0:14:40.040 --> 0:14:42.720 everyone was there, you could see the full extent of 0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:46.440 the shuffling. So even someone next to me, all the 0:14:46.480 --> 0:14:49.080 way in the back of the room was having you know, 0:14:49.600 --> 0:14:53.200 notes scribbled and people were running back and forth to 0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:54.720 them handing them notes. 0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:57.840 So it was like it was very obvious that there was. 0:14:57.760 --> 0:15:01.320 An all hands on deck scramble when the when DJ 0:15:01.520 --> 0:15:04.320 called their rebuttal witness and the judge decided to allow 0:15:04.520 --> 0:15:05.240 it to proceed. 0:15:05.840 --> 0:15:08.360 And what was so scary about this witness? What was 0:15:08.360 --> 0:15:10.640 it that that like chilled. 0:15:10.280 --> 0:15:14.800 Them that he had the real world experience to knock 0:15:14.960 --> 0:15:21.040 down every single one of Mark Israel's wild recommendation. 0:15:21.240 --> 0:15:23.080 And this was the fellow from the Daily Mail, which just. 0:15:23.280 --> 0:15:24.360 Correct correct, right. 0:15:24.680 --> 0:15:26.760 So it's like they were just going to go one 0:15:26.800 --> 0:15:30.520 by one and be like, you know, if if an 0:15:30.600 --> 0:15:38.360 advertiser moves spending to social does that impact your negotiations 0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:38.920 with Google? 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:43.000 No, you know, like they just kind of went one 0:15:43.080 --> 0:15:43.480 by one. 0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:48.640 And because the questions, the hypotheticals are so outlandish, Google 0:15:48.720 --> 0:15:52.040 knew that he was going to seem confused by the 0:15:52.160 --> 0:15:56.440 very question, like like the premise is so backwards that 0:15:56.560 --> 0:16:01.280 it would that his sincere confusion would come across, you know. 0:16:01.360 --> 0:16:03.160 So that there is one person I want to bring 0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:05.800 up so big on tech, Tom Blakeley over there. He 0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:08.240 brought up on Tuesday that there was testimony from a 0:16:08.240 --> 0:16:14.080 guy called doctor Paul Milgram, Yes, from Stamford. Now Blakely 0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:16.760 seems to think that this was a good a good 0:16:16.840 --> 0:16:17.640 day for Google. 0:16:18.800 --> 0:16:21.000 Well, yeah, thing, I wasn't there that day. I was 0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:24.320 actually up, which is a whole nother, a whole nother story. 0:16:24.360 --> 0:16:24.720 I was up. 0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:26.800 I ram up in New York real quickly for a conference. 0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:28.280 But I think R A. L. 0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:30.960 You were there. I know who he is though, and 0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:35.080 I actually think he probably could have been their best witness, 0:16:35.280 --> 0:16:39.920 expert witness. He's like an auction guru. But but Eril, 0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:41.520 you'd have to say how you thought it went my 0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:42.640 reado that wasn't yet. 0:16:43.920 --> 0:16:46.280 Yeah, I agree with that. 0:16:46.560 --> 0:16:49.560 I think by far he was their best witness, and 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:52.720 and he uh, it was very clear that the judge 0:16:53.160 --> 0:16:54.160 found him credible. 0:16:54.200 --> 0:16:55.400 I would say he's. 0:16:55.240 --> 0:16:59.520 The witness that the judge engaged directly with the most 0:17:00.360 --> 0:17:02.200 on on both sides. 0:17:03.040 --> 0:17:04.879 What was his How did they use him? 0:17:05.800 --> 0:17:11.040 Uh to explain the like the auction dynamics, like try 0:17:11.200 --> 0:17:13.160 they were trying to use him to explain why last 0:17:13.200 --> 0:17:16.480 look wasn't always beneficial to Google. 0:17:16.760 --> 0:17:19.879 Why Why that's where you can see the bits of 0:17:19.880 --> 0:17:21.920 competing advertisers and beat them by a dollar. 0:17:22.480 --> 0:17:22.720 Yeah. 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:26.400 Yeah, yeah, So they went through each of those kind 0:17:26.440 --> 0:17:31.919 of like auction dynamic questions. But I still think that 0:17:32.000 --> 0:17:35.359 the DOJ did well on cross at highlighting things that 0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:38.280 he didn't bring up. I don't want to like get 0:17:38.320 --> 0:17:41.359 too far into the weeds on it, but but. 0:17:41.600 --> 0:17:44.200 Yeah, they but the DOJ did a good job at. 0:17:45.560 --> 0:17:49.679 Illuminating the things that he just didn't emphasize. Right, They 0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:53.040 played some games with a timeline of changes they made 0:17:53.040 --> 0:17:57.080 to their product. And it's not that his testimony necessarily 0:17:57.640 --> 0:18:00.199 was false, but it was a little bit misleading the 0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:04.440 way it presented things. If if you consider the timelines 0:18:04.440 --> 0:18:06.560 of the changes that Google implemented, and I think the 0:18:06.600 --> 0:18:08.520 DJ did a good job of clearing that up. 0:18:08.560 --> 0:18:11.240 But I do think that this was Google's strongest witness. 0:18:24.160 --> 0:18:27.960 Yeah, it's it seems like though having one strong witness 0:18:28.040 --> 0:18:30.320 is not going to win them this case. If I'm honest, 0:18:30.520 --> 0:18:32.440 it doesn't sound like it went well. And I mean, 0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:34.679 maybe this is the right time to lost both of you. 0:18:35.359 --> 0:18:36.560 What do you think happens? 0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:42.800 I mean in terms of the actual opinion. Yeah, it 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:44.760 didn't you've heard from me. It didn't go it didn't go. 0:18:44.840 --> 0:18:48.480 Well there, yeah, they one expert witness actually gained into 0:18:48.520 --> 0:18:53.120 the granular detail of auctions and that you know, that 0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:57.720 element probably isn't need necessary anyway, because the monopoly power 0:18:57.760 --> 0:19:00.720 is clear, and the conflict of me is clear, and 0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:04.119 the tying is clear. So you know, depending on on 0:19:04.160 --> 0:19:08.760 the actual analysis of a paid witness by Google, is 0:19:08.800 --> 0:19:11.040 really a hail mary at that point, it's very I 0:19:11.040 --> 0:19:13.840 think it's very rare that expert witness like that can 0:19:14.280 --> 0:19:18.120 can swing the case. So I think if, if very much, 0:19:18.119 --> 0:19:20.480 the DOJ's case to lose at this point, I mean, 0:19:20.480 --> 0:19:22.919 they've they're going to update their findings of fact and 0:19:22.920 --> 0:19:24.840 and you know, they still have the advantage of the 0:19:24.960 --> 0:19:28.240 judge questioning the credibility of all the Google witnesses from 0:19:28.320 --> 0:19:32.119 the deletion of the chats, et cetera. So so then 0:19:32.119 --> 0:19:34.320 we just get to remedies. And we've you know, since 0:19:34.320 --> 0:19:36.280 we last talked, we've got the schedule for remedies in 0:19:36.359 --> 0:19:39.520 search too, so those are going to be happy, you know, 0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:42.120 probably shortly after the ad tech remedies. 0:19:42.160 --> 0:19:44.560 So here we go when would those be? 0:19:45.400 --> 0:19:48.760 That hearing is going to be in April, and Judge 0:19:48.760 --> 0:19:51.160 Meta said he wants to have his opinion out by 0:19:51.160 --> 0:19:55.119 the summertime. So and so in the asset case, the 0:19:55.160 --> 0:20:00.359 attach case closing arguments are November, and I would think 0:20:00.440 --> 0:20:04.040 that means her opinion probably will be out January. I 0:20:04.080 --> 0:20:06.720 would doubt it before the holidays. 0:20:07.640 --> 0:20:09.240 How are you feeling about a real so what do 0:20:09.280 --> 0:20:10.320 you think might happen? 0:20:10.880 --> 0:20:14.480 I mean, I agree, I like especially when I think 0:20:14.520 --> 0:20:19.840 about like the ad server monopolization claim, the tying claim, 0:20:19.960 --> 0:20:25.640 I don't really see a realm in reality that where 0:20:25.720 --> 0:20:28.440 the DOJ's claims there don't succeed. 0:20:28.800 --> 0:20:30.760 There's just like, there's so. 0:20:30.840 --> 0:20:34.800 Much evidence to prove it, and there's so little evidence 0:20:34.840 --> 0:20:38.159 that Google put forward to even try to refute it. 0:20:38.200 --> 0:20:41.680 They put all of their eggs in that market definition basket. 0:20:41.760 --> 0:20:45.280 And from that perspective, I think, you know, I was 0:20:45.840 --> 0:20:51.280 debating in my mind earlier and actually with Tom Blakely 0:20:51.480 --> 0:20:56.320 if they should have called the rebuttal witness. But I 0:20:56.400 --> 0:20:59.439 do see the value in what they did because they 0:20:59.520 --> 0:21:04.480 literally close their rebuttal by saying, okay, what like, what 0:21:04.600 --> 0:21:09.720 is the tool that ultimately decides what AD is served, 0:21:09.760 --> 0:21:12.520 and he says the AD server, Okay, who's your AD server? 0:21:12.800 --> 0:21:13.200 Google? 0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:13.720 Right? 0:21:14.119 --> 0:21:18.040 So I just I think they ended it perfectly. 0:21:18.119 --> 0:21:20.240 I don't think that there's a way that the AD 0:21:20.320 --> 0:21:24.720 server or the tying claims fail. I'm interested to see 0:21:24.760 --> 0:21:28.119 what happens with the AD network side of things, because 0:21:28.119 --> 0:21:30.320 I think that the DOJ spent the least amount of 0:21:30.320 --> 0:21:30.879 time on that. 0:21:30.920 --> 0:21:33.200 But I also don't think it really changes the remedy 0:21:33.320 --> 0:21:33.800 very much. 0:21:34.600 --> 0:21:36.359 Well, do you think the remedies might be though? Do 0:21:36.400 --> 0:21:39.159 you think that they bring like is it even like 0:21:39.680 --> 0:21:42.080 are we going to just see the entire thing shattered? 0:21:43.000 --> 0:21:45.040 I realized we're all guessing he by the way the 0:21:45.640 --> 0:21:48.400