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Speaker 1: Al Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Better Offline. I am, as usual

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Speaker 2: your host ed Zichrono. Today I'm joined again for the

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Speaker 2: last episode of our DOJV Google Ads series Ariel Garcia

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Speaker 2: of Check My Ads and of course Jason Kent of DCN.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for coming. What's happened in this

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Speaker 2: week's This Saga?

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Speaker 1: So this week we had the opportunity to listen to

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Speaker 1: Google's defense. They I haven't done the tally yet, I

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Speaker 1: intend to, but the vast majority of witnesses they called

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Speaker 1: were people that either have been paid or still are

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Speaker 1: paid by Google.

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Speaker 3: So that includes people like.

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Speaker 1: Current employees, small businesses that get big grants from Google,

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Speaker 1: and their expert witnesses. The most notable one is doctor

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Speaker 1: Mark Israel, who is at a consultancy called Compass Lexicon.

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Speaker 3: He's there, he was their lead economists.

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Speaker 1: So, if you remember, we've talked about how Google is

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Speaker 1: trying to argue that ad tech is just one big,

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Speaker 1: two sided market that connects advertisers and impressions.

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Speaker 3: Not even publishers.

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Speaker 1: Publicers don't exist, Okay, So that two sided market argument

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Speaker 1: comes from Mark Israel's work, or it was his expert

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Speaker 1: report that really defined that argument and.

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Speaker 2: For the listener's sake, what is this man? Like? What

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Speaker 2: does he do for a living?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's what the DOJ wanted to know. So apparently.

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Speaker 1: He makes eighty percent of his money and spends a

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Speaker 1: five percent of his time being an expert witness, so

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Speaker 1: literally getting cool paid to say what people want him

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Speaker 1: to say cool.

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Speaker 2: So is that like a job that anyone could do?

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Speaker 2: Just wondering, but in all serious this looking up this

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Speaker 2: wonderful man's He has a PhD in economics from Stanford,

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Speaker 2: MSc in economics from the University of Wisconsin Madison, so

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Speaker 2: big ten BOYBA in economics from Illinois Wesleyan University. This

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Speaker 2: man's job is just having a job. It's just like

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Speaker 2: existing and saying stuff that people asking, like, come on, man,

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Speaker 2: you can't do this, Well, I mean you can, and

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Speaker 2: he does.

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Speaker 1: He.

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Speaker 4: I think it's worth noting he was the expert witness

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Speaker 4: for Google at the search trial too that they just lost,

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Speaker 4: and and he's done like fifty or so different cases.

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Speaker 4: He's also Albertson's and Kroger, which is playing out in

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Speaker 4: the grocery store space. So yeah, this is his full

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Speaker 4: time job.

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Speaker 2: Wait, so he's in the Albatsons and Kroger case as well. Yeah, Jesus,

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Speaker 2: so this man's this man's job is just like kind

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Speaker 2: of being a sock puppet, but like a really well

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Speaker 2: paid one.

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Speaker 4: Your words. But as somebody sitting there listening to him testify,

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Speaker 4: I guess I would say, and this happens a lot

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Speaker 4: of time, I think with economists not to be critical

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Speaker 4: of the whole field. But it wasn't connected to the

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Speaker 4: real world at all, And so it was like, you know,

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Speaker 4: an argument that nobody that understands the actual advertising business

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Speaker 4: would agree with, like, yeah, it's one big, two sided

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Speaker 4: market that also competes with Reddit and Facebook and all

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Speaker 4: these other you know, large platforms, as if they're just

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Speaker 4: directly similar and comparable.

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Speaker 2: So, and how did his augument do with the judge?

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Speaker 4: I didn't think it did well at all. I mean,

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Speaker 4: as he was spinning the yarn in the beginning it

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Speaker 4: I could see where somebody could be convinced that they

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Speaker 4: didn't really understand the business. But then once the just

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Speaker 4: Department did their cross, it really fell apart in my mind.

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Speaker 4: I don't know if if you have a different point

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Speaker 4: of view.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I agree with that.

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Speaker 1: And you could tell because at one point, when he

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Speaker 1: was talking about one of the alleged reasonable substitutes that

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Speaker 1: publishers have, he was basically saying that a publisher that

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Speaker 1: has a website and sells ads on their website can

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Speaker 1: just move those ads to their app, right, And so

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Speaker 1: the judge asks like, well, what if the publisher doesn't

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Speaker 1: have an app, and he's like, well, then there would

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Speaker 1: be they would need to build one. She's like, well

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Speaker 1: that would cost money, no, And he's like, well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: in that instance, they would need to pay money to

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Speaker 1: build an app. That was the only and that, like,

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Speaker 1: that was the simplest pushback point. We're not addressing the

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Speaker 1: fact that, like the amount of people that end up

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Speaker 1: on your website versus the amount of readers that will

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Speaker 1: download an app are not the same. We got to

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Speaker 1: that today when the DJ called their rebuttal witness. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's the type of flavor that we that we got.

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Speaker 1: And if the judge was not already skeptical from the direct,

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Speaker 1: definitely the DOJ absolutely, I literally might. My immediate commentary

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Speaker 1: was that the DJ mopped the floor with him so so.

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Speaker 2: And just to be clear, his argument was, if you

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Speaker 2: don't like Google's heavy monopoly. You could build your own app.

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Speaker 1: That's got yes and that, and it gets more wild,

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Speaker 1: Like at one point he was saying that if if

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Speaker 1: a publisher's ad server is is bad, then advertisers might

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Speaker 1: move money to Facebook. Like these two things have nothing

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Speaker 1: to do so if the tool a publisher uses to

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Speaker 1: manage their campaigns as bad, an advertiser might move money

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Speaker 1: to social media.

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Speaker 3: These It was just completely unhinged.

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Speaker 2: This man is meant to be smart. That feels like

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Speaker 2: a dumb guy augment that that doesn't even make technically.

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Speaker 2: Is this just Google's attempt to just kind of obfiscate

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Speaker 2: things and try and muddy the waters.

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Speaker 1: So I think I think I'm speculating, but I think

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Speaker 1: what he was trying to drive at is that on

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Speaker 1: some level, a good product on one side has implications

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Speaker 1: for the other side. It's part of this bigger argument

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Speaker 1: that they're trying to make for why Google being on

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Speaker 1: both sides of the market of their alleged you know,

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Speaker 1: two sided market is good that when they do something

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Speaker 1: good for advertisers, the knock on effects are good for

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Speaker 1: publishers and vice versa. What the DOJ points out is

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Speaker 1: like okay, but that means ostensibly it can't always just

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Speaker 1: be about the advertisers, right, And we didn't really have

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Speaker 1: a good answer for that.

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Speaker 2: So we're at the end of this trial, though there

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Speaker 2: are closing arguments in NOVEMBI mentioned before the call. How

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Speaker 2: did the rest of the last week or so go?

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Speaker 2: Was it mostly just Google attempting to muddy more like

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Speaker 2: they come up with new arguments of any kind.

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Speaker 4: There's nothing. I didn't hear anything really new, and I

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Speaker 4: think really the fireworks were mostly today as the just

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Speaker 4: department brought in one of the publisher witnesses for a rebuttal,

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Speaker 4: was the only rebuttal witness, and there was a lot

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Speaker 4: of back and forth about whether or not he was

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Speaker 4: gonna be able to testify again, but he basically, you

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Speaker 4: know those arguments that Mark Israel Matthew Wheatland from the

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Speaker 4: Daily Mail senior executive Daily Mail, and so each of

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Speaker 4: those arguments that Israel had made, they kind of cleaned

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Speaker 4: that up, I think the apartment and made it clear

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Speaker 4: that that wasn't wasn't in the real world, that wasn't

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Speaker 4: an issue. And but it got to the point then

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Speaker 4: during when the when Google was doing it's cross where

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Speaker 4: it got. Really, it's kind of absurd if you were

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Speaker 4: in the room. I feel like the judge even knew

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Speaker 4: it was absurd where they were, you know, if he

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Speaker 4: was cleaning up that that it wasn't a real world

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Speaker 4: situation that you could just, you know, shut down your

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Speaker 4: website if things weren't working well with the Google monopoly

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Speaker 4: and launch an app. And then Google's attorney started to

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Speaker 4: compare the number of clicks it takes to type in

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Speaker 4: a website, like literally down to the https colon slash

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Speaker 4: slash versus downloading an app, and was actually comparing how

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Speaker 4: much time it takes to do the two different things.

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Speaker 4: And it was just I could understand how we were

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Speaker 4: gaining that literal on the last day in the last witness.

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Speaker 2: So was the argument the apps are easier to launch

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Speaker 2: them websites.

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Speaker 4: It felt like they were going back to Google's classic

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Speaker 4: argument of you know, of efficiency and you know, competitions

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Speaker 4: a click away, and you know, and all these arguments

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Speaker 4: about how quickly you can do different things. So it

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Speaker 4: was not working in my opinion.

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Speaker 1: So, I mean in Google's world where they can just

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Speaker 1: kind of like coerce their users and customers to do

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Speaker 1: whatever they want them to. Maybe that that, maybe that works,

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Speaker 1: but it doesn't really matter. How If it's the same

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Speaker 1: amount of clicks for a consumer, for a user to

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Speaker 1: download an app as it is to go to a website,

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Speaker 1: no one can force them to download the app, right.

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Speaker 3: But yes, I completely agree. It was just ridiculous.

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Speaker 1: It also was like, because she decided to go there,

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Speaker 1: it kept every time Wheatland went to talk, she had

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Speaker 1: to cut him off because he was trying.

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Speaker 2: To You could tell me she being the judge here.

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Speaker 3: No, no, no.

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Speaker 1: Every time Wheatland went to talk beyond a yes or no,

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Speaker 1: Google's council needed to cut him off because she probably

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Speaker 1: realized that he was going to say, well no, Like

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Speaker 1: he kept saying, that's one way to get to a website,

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Speaker 1: and obviously, you know, search results would be another one,

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Speaker 1: you know.

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Speaker 3: So it was just a very odd.

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Speaker 2: It really does feel and I said this last episode,

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Speaker 2: it doesn't feel like Google came in with an argument.

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Speaker 2: I'm astonished because these are meant to For years, we've

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Speaker 2: seen these companies as these kind of mammoth organizations that

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Speaker 2: can do what they want. But in front of a judge,

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Speaker 2: they just seemed kind of pathetic.

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Speaker 1: I think that the facts were just so not on

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Speaker 1: their side that they really struggled. There was not one

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Speaker 1: witness that they called where on cross examination, DJ didn't

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Speaker 1: manage to surface something that set Google back a little

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Speaker 1: bit or introduced something new that was bad, you know

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Speaker 1: what I mean.

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Speaker 3: They just they didn't have very much.

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Speaker 1: And so that's why their experts, and specifically Mark Israel,

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Speaker 1: because the other experts that Google called their analysis relied

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Speaker 1: heavily on Israel's report, right, so it was really hinging

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Speaker 1: on Israel. I expected that there would be something at least.

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Speaker 3: Somewhat compelling there, and when I.

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Speaker 1: Saw that there was just absolutely nothing there, I mean,

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Speaker 1: to me, that was the nail on the coffin for

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Speaker 1: their case.

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Speaker 2: It's remarkable. It also kind of suggests that these other

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Speaker 2: antitrust cases might be similarly chaotic, because you would think that,

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Speaker 2: I think what is really stunning me, other than the

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Speaker 2: fact that just kind of incompetent is you'd think they'd

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Speaker 2: have planned for this, Like Jason, you've been getting you

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Speaker 2: covered the search trial. Did they have a better argument there?

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Speaker 4: They did, and you know, I think their argument there

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Speaker 4: was you know that they still had kind of a

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Speaker 4: giant elf in the room that they were spending you know,

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Speaker 4: upwards of twenty twenty five billion dollars a year for

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Speaker 4: the search slot. And you know, if they were the

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Speaker 4: best product out there and consumers, why it naturally then

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Speaker 4: why they have to pay all that money? That was

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Speaker 4: the big help in the room. But they at least

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Speaker 4: could make arguments about exclusionary conduct and a few other

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Speaker 4: things that they'll try to make in their appeal. I

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Speaker 4: don't think they're going to win because the appeal goes

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Speaker 4: to the same as in the same circuit as USB Microsoft,

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Speaker 4: which it relied on. So but they, you know, it

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Speaker 4: was more down to illegal arguments and they didn't have

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Speaker 4: the same issues with deletion of emails and all that

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Speaker 4: stuff in the same way that came out in this case.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, I you know, one thing and I can

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Speaker 4: thinking a lot about is. I mean, as much as

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Speaker 4: you know they've got, it feels like, you know, almost

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Speaker 4: every major law firm at their fingertips when they need them,

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Speaker 4: and experts and paid experts, et cetera. It's a really

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Speaker 4: complicated chess game when you've got remedies going on in

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Speaker 4: California from your app store loss, and you've got the

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Speaker 4: Search case remedies going on in DC and all these

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Speaker 4: things are you know, dividing executive time within the company,

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Speaker 4: and you also are trying to manage, you know, your

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Speaker 4: business at the same time you've got Sundar Forsha going

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Speaker 4: on TV a couple of nights ago, you know, to

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Speaker 4: say that you know, everything's all good, right, It's it's

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Speaker 4: a very complicated chess game no matter who you are.

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Speaker 2: And do you think, what do you think these cases

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Speaker 2: are kind of splitting their attention?

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Speaker 4: That would be my I mean, it has to be

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Speaker 4: at some point, and you you kind of see that

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Speaker 4: play out in the real world, you know, when you've

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Speaker 4: got you know, I saw in the Search case. I

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Speaker 4: think it was like one of the last days where

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Speaker 4: you had Kent Walker, the chief legal officer at Google,

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Speaker 4: you know, in the front row and then like literally

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Speaker 4: move up to the lawyer's table, you know, which was

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Speaker 4: kind of unusual to try to whisper to some of

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Speaker 4: the lawyers in real time. So like he's gained involved

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Speaker 4: right in the actual arguments at the trial as Search

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Speaker 4: cases weighing down, And I sensed that a little bit today,

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Speaker 4: Ari L I don't know if you sens this, you

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Speaker 4: were in the courtroom, but like there was shuffling around

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Speaker 4: by various Google and and their law firms.

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Speaker 2: Folks. You know when you say shuffling around, is he

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Speaker 2: just handing papers to the Yeah?

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Speaker 4: I mean there was like almost many huddles happening, you know,

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Speaker 4: you know, a borderline close to disturbing the judge. But

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Speaker 4: you had, you know, three or four people leaning back

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Speaker 4: and forth talking to each other, and then people running

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Speaker 4: out of the room and stuff. It was it was

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Speaker 4: like they were, you know, dealing, They were trying to

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Speaker 4: escalate and deal with things in real time because things

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Speaker 4: weren't going.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm losing this trial.

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Speaker 1: Like their whole team was there today like that. Everyone

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Speaker 1: knew that today was going to be the last day.

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Speaker 1: So Google's entire team was there. And I'll also say

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Speaker 1: we knew it was a big team between like their

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Speaker 1: associates and their comms people and stuff, but I didn't

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Speaker 1: know quite how big it was. They they filled like

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Speaker 1: the entire middle section of the courtroom, which is the

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Speaker 1: largest section I'd say they have. They had three times

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Speaker 1: the amount of people there that dooj did. And because

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Speaker 1: everyone was there, you could see the full extent of

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Speaker 1: the shuffling. So even someone next to me, all the

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Speaker 1: way in the back of the room was having you know,

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Speaker 1: notes scribbled and people were running back and forth to

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Speaker 1: them handing them notes.

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Speaker 3: So it was like it was very obvious that there was.

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Speaker 1: An all hands on deck scramble when the when DJ

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Speaker 1: called their rebuttal witness and the judge decided to allow

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Speaker 1: it to proceed.

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Speaker 2: And what was so scary about this witness? What was

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Speaker 2: it that that like chilled.

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Speaker 1: Them that he had the real world experience to knock

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Speaker 1: down every single one of Mark Israel's wild recommendation.

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Speaker 2: And this was the fellow from the Daily Mail, which just.

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Speaker 3: Correct correct, right.

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Speaker 1: So it's like they were just going to go one

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Speaker 1: by one and be like, you know, if if an

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Speaker 1: advertiser moves spending to social does that impact your negotiations

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Speaker 1: with Google?

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Speaker 3: No, you know, like they just kind of went one

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Speaker 3: by one.

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Speaker 1: And because the questions, the hypotheticals are so outlandish, Google

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Speaker 1: knew that he was going to seem confused by the

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Speaker 1: very question, like like the premise is so backwards that

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Speaker 1: it would that his sincere confusion would come across, you know.

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Speaker 2: So that there is one person I want to bring

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Speaker 2: up so big on tech, Tom Blakeley over there. He

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Speaker 2: brought up on Tuesday that there was testimony from a

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Speaker 2: guy called doctor Paul Milgram, Yes, from Stamford. Now Blakely

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Speaker 2: seems to think that this was a good a good

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Speaker 2: day for Google.

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Speaker 4: Well, yeah, thing, I wasn't there that day. I was

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Speaker 4: actually up, which is a whole nother, a whole nother story.

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Speaker 1: I was up.

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Speaker 4: I ram up in New York real quickly for a conference.

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Speaker 2: But I think R A. L.

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Speaker 4: You were there. I know who he is though, and

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Speaker 4: I actually think he probably could have been their best witness,

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Speaker 4: expert witness. He's like an auction guru. But but Eril,

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Speaker 4: you'd have to say how you thought it went my

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Speaker 4: reado that wasn't yet.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree with that.

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Speaker 1: I think by far he was their best witness, and

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Speaker 1: and he uh, it was very clear that the judge

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Speaker 1: found him credible.

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Speaker 3: I would say he's.

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Speaker 1: The witness that the judge engaged directly with the most

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Speaker 1: on on both sides.

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Speaker 2: What was his How did they use him?

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Speaker 1: Uh to explain the like the auction dynamics, like try

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Speaker 1: they were trying to use him to explain why last

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Speaker 1: look wasn't always beneficial to Google.

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Speaker 2: Why Why that's where you can see the bits of

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Speaker 2: competing advertisers and beat them by a dollar.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, So they went through each of those kind

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Speaker 1: of like auction dynamic questions. But I still think that

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Speaker 1: the DOJ did well on cross at highlighting things that

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Speaker 1: he didn't bring up. I don't want to like get

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Speaker 1: too far into the weeds on it, but but.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they but the DOJ did a good job at.

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Speaker 1: Illuminating the things that he just didn't emphasize. Right, They

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Speaker 1: played some games with a timeline of changes they made

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Speaker 1: to their product. And it's not that his testimony necessarily

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Speaker 1: was false, but it was a little bit misleading the

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Speaker 1: way it presented things. If if you consider the timelines

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Speaker 1: of the changes that Google implemented, and I think the

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Speaker 1: DJ did a good job of clearing that up.

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Speaker 3: But I do think that this was Google's strongest witness.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it seems like though having one strong witness

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Speaker 2: is not going to win them this case. If I'm honest,

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Speaker 2: it doesn't sound like it went well. And I mean,

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Speaker 2: maybe this is the right time to lost both of you.

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Speaker 2: What do you think happens?

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Speaker 4: I mean in terms of the actual opinion. Yeah, it

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Speaker 4: didn't you've heard from me. It didn't go it didn't go.

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Speaker 4: Well there, yeah, they one expert witness actually gained into

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Speaker 4: the granular detail of auctions and that you know, that

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Speaker 4: element probably isn't need necessary anyway, because the monopoly power

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Speaker 4: is clear, and the conflict of me is clear, and

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Speaker 4: the tying is clear. So you know, depending on on

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Speaker 4: the actual analysis of a paid witness by Google, is

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Speaker 4: really a hail mary at that point, it's very I

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Speaker 4: think it's very rare that expert witness like that can

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Speaker 4: can swing the case. So I think if, if very much,

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Speaker 4: the DOJ's case to lose at this point, I mean,

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Speaker 4: they've they're going to update their findings of fact and

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Speaker 4: and you know, they still have the advantage of the

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Speaker 4: judge questioning the credibility of all the Google witnesses from

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Speaker 4: the deletion of the chats, et cetera. So so then

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Speaker 4: we just get to remedies. And we've you know, since

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Speaker 4: we last talked, we've got the schedule for remedies in

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Speaker 4: search too, so those are going to be happy, you know,

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Speaker 4: probably shortly after the ad tech remedies.

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Speaker 2: So here we go when would those be?

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Speaker 4: That hearing is going to be in April, and Judge

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Speaker 4: Meta said he wants to have his opinion out by

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Speaker 4: the summertime. So and so in the asset case, the

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Speaker 4: attach case closing arguments are November, and I would think

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Speaker 4: that means her opinion probably will be out January. I

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Speaker 4: would doubt it before the holidays.

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Speaker 2: How are you feeling about a real so what do

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Speaker 2: you think might happen?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I agree, I like especially when I think

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Speaker 1: about like the ad server monopolization claim, the tying claim,

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Speaker 1: I don't really see a realm in reality that where

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Speaker 1: the DOJ's claims there don't succeed.

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Speaker 3: There's just like, there's so.

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Speaker 1: Much evidence to prove it, and there's so little evidence

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Speaker 1: that Google put forward to even try to refute it.

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Speaker 1: They put all of their eggs in that market definition basket.

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Speaker 1: And from that perspective, I think, you know, I was

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Speaker 1: debating in my mind earlier and actually with Tom Blakely

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Speaker 1: if they should have called the rebuttal witness. But I

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Speaker 1: do see the value in what they did because they

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Speaker 1: literally close their rebuttal by saying, okay, what like, what

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Speaker 1: is the tool that ultimately decides what AD is served,

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Speaker 1: and he says the AD server, Okay, who's your AD server?

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Speaker 3: Google?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 3: So I just I think they ended it perfectly.

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Speaker 1: I don't think that there's a way that the AD

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Speaker 1: server or the tying claims fail. I'm interested to see

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Speaker 1: what happens with the AD network side of things, because

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Speaker 1: I think that the DOJ spent the least amount of

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Speaker 1: time on that.

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Speaker 3: But I also don't think it really changes the remedy

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Speaker 3: very much.

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Speaker 2: Well, do you think the remedies might be though? Do

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Speaker 2: you think that they bring like is it even like

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Speaker 2: are we going to just see the entire thing shattered?

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Speaker 2: I realized we're all guessing he by the way the

401
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Speaker 2: entire Google thing chattered, I mean, I mean that's where

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Speaker 2: the AD side of Google.

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Speaker 4: The adside of Google. I mean, I don't think there's

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Speaker 4: any way that if Google loses, I don't see there's

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Speaker 4: any way that's not the remedy, because that's what the

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Speaker 4: JUST Department said was the appropriate relief and all the

407
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Speaker 4: evidence points. Do you know, unless you believe it's a

408
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Speaker 4: two sided market that is just more efficient that way,

409
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Speaker 4: then there's no other real defense that doesn't you know,

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Speaker 4: you can't go anywhere else except for break the ad

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Speaker 4: tech business apart.

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Speaker 2: So, and to take a step back, when you say

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Speaker 2: it's a two sided market, is that what are they

414
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Speaker 2: actually arguing that? Like, what is Google's argument in that way?

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Speaker 2: Is it?

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Speaker 1: That?

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Speaker 2: Is it just the publishers don't exist.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a little bit of a messnomer to explain it. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: it's a because I know there is the argument that

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Speaker 4: there's publishers and advertisers are on both sides. And that's

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Speaker 4: actually the DJ's case. This is a legal term for

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Speaker 4: a two sided market. That and it relates to the

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Speaker 4: America Express Ohio case and and so yes, yeah, so

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Speaker 4: you know it actually you know, it stems from the

425
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Speaker 4: notion of when you run a I think technically a

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Speaker 4: debit card through like are you, as the merchant if

427
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Speaker 4: I if I get this right, like as a merchant,

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Speaker 4: if somebody is about to use an American Express card

429
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Speaker 4: that costs them more money, is the merchant allowed to say, hey,

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Speaker 4: if you use your Visa card or whatever other card,

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Speaker 4: then you won't have to pay me, as you know

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Speaker 4: you I want to pay as much and can you steer?

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Speaker 4: And so there's some some legal following out from there

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Speaker 4: that that leads to an offense.

435
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Speaker 2: So and that argument isn't gonna work for Google though, because.

436
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:32,520
Speaker 4: That in Google's world, it's a single Yeah, it's one

437
00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:36,320
Speaker 4: big thing, like one big contraption, right, that just handles

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Speaker 4: more efficiently the entire ad marketplace.

439
00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:42,720
Speaker 2: So yeah, as opposed to what it is, which it

440
00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:46,639
Speaker 2: sounds like you're paying Google to advertise with Google and

441
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Speaker 2: then Google messing with the old shapes that Google exactly

442
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:54,120
Speaker 2: effectively led it. Yeah, exactly what a bizarre I mean,

443
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:57,000
Speaker 2: you two have been there. This feels like a very

444
00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:01,719
Speaker 2: bizarre trial, just a peculiar one to have watched because

445
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:04,480
Speaker 2: all these other tech trials, having obviously not been in

446
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 2: court with myself, haven't read a good amount of transcripts

447
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 2: listening listen to various depositions and stuff, even going back

448
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 2: to like the Bill Gates deposition one where he was

449
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:17,240
Speaker 2: asking for like the very minute definitions. They always seem

450
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,159
Speaker 2: very cocky. They always seem like they add a bit

451
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:22,720
Speaker 2: pisson vinegar to them. This one they just seem to

452
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:23,879
Speaker 2: be kind of milling about.

453
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,560
Speaker 3: Oh no, they were, they're they're. The arrogance is definitely there.

454
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,600
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, oh yeah, Like if you talk to anyone

455
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:34,399
Speaker 1: that goes to their secret briefings, they're like, they're so

456
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 1: they appear so confident in their case that they actually

457
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,880
Speaker 1: start to confuse the people that have been there watching

458
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:44,960
Speaker 1: the trial about whether they are seeing what they think

459
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 1: they're seeing. But that Google's entire strategy, you know what

460
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:52,960
Speaker 1: I mean? So confidence no matter what they they put

461
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:53,400
Speaker 1: out there.

462
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:55,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, cool, So what do.

463
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 4: You think about if I can ask Gurriel question? There

464
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:03,680
Speaker 4: was a moment this morning where when Matthew Wheland from

465
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 4: Daily Mail was testifying and they were trying, they were

466
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 4: they were objecting to back and forth to something just

467
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 4: department was asking. But ultimately the judge made a comment

468
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,159
Speaker 4: about there's clearly a lot of competition in that market,

469
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,680
Speaker 4: and I think she was my read I was she

470
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 4: was talking generally about something and they were all talking

471
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 4: over each other. But like that was the one line

472
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,400
Speaker 4: where I was like the judge, it didn't make any

473
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 4: sense in the context of DFP, which is really what

474
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 4: mattered there, and DFP has ninety one percent of the market,

475
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 4: so like it didn't fit. But so I found it

476
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 4: quite like.

477
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:37,359
Speaker 2: You break that down a little bit, what do you

478
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:38,960
Speaker 2: mean by DFP and what'd.

479
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,640
Speaker 4: You mean publisher at So the publisher ad server, which

480
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:42,439
Speaker 4: Google has.

481
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,159
Speaker 2: The place where it publishes sell their ads.

482
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, and Google has ninety one percent of the marketplace

483
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,439
Speaker 4: for that software. So that's the that's one of the

484
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:55,440
Speaker 4: three monopolies alleged, is the publisher ad server marketplace. And

485
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 4: and Google has ninety one percent of the market, which

486
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 4: most average person street and definitely any lawyer would say

487
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 4: is monopoly power at ninety one percent.

488
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:09,200
Speaker 1: And so yeah, there's no way, there's no way that

489
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:12,880
Speaker 1: that judge that the judge was talking about the ad

490
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,400
Speaker 1: server market. My read is so it was a chaotic

491
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:19,679
Speaker 1: flurry of objections, right, And if we remember how the

492
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 1: objection started, it was the DOJ wanted to call Wheatland.

493
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 1: Karen Dunn was upset because why is a fact witness

494
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 1: being called to rebut an expert, And they argued about it,

495
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:34,680
Speaker 1: and then finally he's allowed to go on, and then

496
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,200
Speaker 1: they asked him the first question, and there's a flurry

497
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 1: of objections again, and then they asked the question about

498
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 1: whether Google whether the ad server market is competitive, and

499
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,200
Speaker 1: that's where this objection fest happened.

500
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:53,360
Speaker 3: And so my understanding is.

501
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:57,199
Speaker 1: The judge knew that the everything at issue here was

502
00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 1: they wanted to use him to rebut Mark Israel Mar

503
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 1: Israel thinks it's all one two sided market. And I

504
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 1: believe that the judge was thought that the question was

505
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,639
Speaker 1: about that big market when she said that it was,

506
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:15,679
Speaker 1: it's clear that it's competitive, because remember just it was

507
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 1: like five minutes ago that the judge was saying that

508
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 1: market definition is a core issue in this case, and

509
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 1: it's one that the court is going to need to resolve.

510
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 4: You know, got it, got it makes sense? Makes sense.

511
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,160
Speaker 2: What a bizarre year year this has been for tech

512
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 2: in general. I mean, as we wrap up this wonderful

513
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,160
Speaker 2: series and thank you both for doing this, it does

514
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 2: feel like something has changed with how definitely like society,

515
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,159
Speaker 2: but almost all of these judges are looking at the

516
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 2: tech industry. They're not friends anymore. There's no it doesn't

517
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 2: feel like the government is on tech's side anymore.

518
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 4: Well, I think that my rate is that, you know,

519
00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 4: the courts are very much just calling balls and strikes,

520
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 4: and I I would applaud this judge. I mean, incredible

521
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 4: that she got through everything in three weeks instead of six.

522
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:09,920
Speaker 4: She clearly was tracking and followed what happened with Judge

523
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:15,120
Speaker 4: Meta's case in DC. She actually referenced today something from

524
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:19,400
Speaker 4: the California case where Google had argued the very opposite

525
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 4: defense as what they were arguing in court today, and

526
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,440
Speaker 4: she said that that was very problematic for Google, and

527
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 4: so they'd address it during the final closing argument. So,

528
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 4: you know, they're all paying attention to each other, and

529
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 4: they're calling balls and strikes. And then yes, the PRUS,

530
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:37,359
Speaker 4: you know, the AGS and the Just Department are doing

531
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 4: a masterful job of understanding the you know, the sophistication

532
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 4: of these companies.

533
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's a fun time to be alive and

534
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 2: reporting on this and you two have done just incredible work.

535
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 2: And I want to thank you on behalf of listeners

536
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 2: as well. You've both been kicking off and checked my ads,

537
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 2: in particular with usv Google Ads, which will be linked

538
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 2: at the end of this episode. You've done just a

539
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 2: phenomenal job here and I I don't know if this

540
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 2: would have been as well covered without you both, actually,

541
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 2: so thank you.

542
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 4: Thank you, thank you for having us.

543
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 2: So I'm going to call it there, Ariel work and

544
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 2: people find you.

545
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 3: You can find me a check my adds dot org.

546
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 3: You can find me at Ariel s Garcia on.

547
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 4: Twitter, Jason Underscore kent ordigitalcontentnext dot org sometimes called DCN.

548
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 2: That works for thanks, and you can find me by

549
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 2: googling who ruined Google search. That will bring you to

550
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 2: an article that I wrote thanks to an AI overview,

551
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 2: you've been listening to Better Offline. That's the end of

552
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 2: our coverage for now, but I'll be bringing back both

553
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 2: Ariel and Jason for the closing arguments sometime in November.

554
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening. Thank you for listening to Better Offline.

555
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 2: The editor and composer of the Better Offline theme song

556
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 2: is Matosowski. You can check out more of his music

557
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 2: and audio project at Mattasowski dot com m A T

558
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 2: T O. S O W s ki dot com. You

559
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 2: can email me at easy at Better offline dot com

560
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 2: or visit Better offline dot com to find more podcast

561
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 2: links and of course my newsletter. I also really recommend

562
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 2: you go to chat dot Where's your heead dot at

563
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 2: to visit the discord, and go to our slash Better

564
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 2: Offline to check out our reddit. Thank you so much

565
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 2: for listening.

566
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 3: Better Offline is a production of cool Zone Media.

567
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 2: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

568
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 2: zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

569
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.