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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to stuff.

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Speaker 1: Moon never told your production of I Heart Radio. So

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Speaker 1: today we are excited to bring another crew who also

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Speaker 1: love to talk about amazing women in history and talk

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Speaker 1: about all the amazing or even unknown accomplishments they did.

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Speaker 1: So let's welcome Olivia. Olivia him so happy to be here. Yay, Olivia,

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Speaker 1: thank you for joining us. Can you introduce yourself for us? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: my name's Olivia Michael, and I teach women's studies in Denver, Colorado,

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Speaker 1: and I am the host of the What's her Name

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Speaker 1: Women's History podcast with my sister and co host Katie Nelson. Ah,

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Speaker 1: and we are so excited that you have joined us.

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Speaker 1: You and I actually kind of connected because well I

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Speaker 1: thought you and I because I was the one handling

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Speaker 1: the social media at that point. Um, because we got

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Speaker 1: listed together and I was like, oh my god, it's

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Speaker 1: be a crossover, so exciting. So can you tell a

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Speaker 1: little bit about yourself, our listeners, and about your fantastic

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Speaker 1: podcast and the reason you and your sister decided to

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Speaker 1: start all of it. Yeah. So I was finishing up

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Speaker 1: grad school and jobs were very thin on the ground here.

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Speaker 1: I live in Boulder, and like the people bagging your

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Speaker 1: groceries have a master's degree, so it's really hard to

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Speaker 1: get an academic job here, and I was afraid I

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Speaker 1: wasn't gonna find anything. Thank goodness, I did, but um,

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Speaker 1: and I didn't want to do nothing with my degree.

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Speaker 1: It felt like it felt frustrating to not do anything

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Speaker 1: with this degree that I had discerned. And so I

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Speaker 1: called Katie, my sister, who is a history professor, and

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Speaker 1: we had been talking for a while about doing something

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Speaker 1: for women's history since it was the perfect crossover of

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Speaker 1: our interests, and so we thought about writing our goals

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Speaker 1: or doing a blog or something to get more women's

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Speaker 1: history into the world. And at that point, podcasting was

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Speaker 1: just about to shift from do you know what a

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Speaker 1: podcast is? Two? Do you listen to podcasts? And so

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Speaker 1: we realize if we can jump on this early on,

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Speaker 1: then we have an advantage over all the other podcasts

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Speaker 1: that will start, and this really seems like the venue

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Speaker 1: that we're looking for. We want this to be public

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Speaker 1: and accessible and something that you can use in classes,

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Speaker 1: but also something that your next door neighbor will enjoy.

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Speaker 1: And so we decided to do this to try to

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Speaker 1: find a way to do a podcast. We knew nothing

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Speaker 1: about it at all, and humanities professors learning to audio

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Speaker 1: edit was hilarious, so we'll tell you, um and incredibly frustrating,

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Speaker 1: But so we we weren't really exactly sure what we

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Speaker 1: wanted to focus on. Just you know, we knew women's history,

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Speaker 1: and that you were frustrated that you keep hearing the

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Speaker 1: same five women's stories over and over again. And there

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Speaker 1: are I don't know if you know this, but there

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Speaker 1: are more women than five who didn't want There might

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Speaker 1: be dozens of women who did stuff throughout history. And

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Speaker 1: Katie's idea was that she really wanted to focus on

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Speaker 1: all the women that have not been talked about. The

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Speaker 1: tagline is fascinating women you've never heard of, and she

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Speaker 1: knows this now. I didn't tell her at the time.

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Speaker 1: I thought it was a terrible idea, because you have

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Speaker 1: has a brilliant idea, but a terrible idea because, as

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Speaker 1: you know, it's really hard to get people interested in

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Speaker 1: women's history anyway, and doing a whole podcast around women

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Speaker 1: that you've never heard of before just seemed like such

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Speaker 1: a hard sell to me. And I was worried that

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Speaker 1: nobody would listen to it. And then I was walking

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Speaker 1: through a graveyard, as one does. I do. I'm informed

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Speaker 1: that people don't, but apparently they I do. And I

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Speaker 1: was walking through this great old Semitarian boulder and I

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Speaker 1: just sort of stumbled across this gravestone that didn't have

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Speaker 1: any name on it. All it said was mother. And

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Speaker 1: I was just horrified. I mean it, it gutted me

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Speaker 1: because I'm I'm a mother and I love being a mother.

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Speaker 1: I have three children who I love, and I am

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Speaker 1: not mother. I am Olivia, and I am more than

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Speaker 1: that identity. And I just it suddenly just felt so

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Speaker 1: horrifying to me that this woman was gone. Um. And

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Speaker 1: I know that that usually there's a larger gravestone with

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Speaker 1: all the names and and you know that it was

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Speaker 1: probably attached to something at one point, but nothing else

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Speaker 1: was there anymore, and all she was was mother. And

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Speaker 1: I freaked out frankly and called Katie on the way

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Speaker 1: back to my car out of the reabue. Yes, we're

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Speaker 1: doing it, We're doing the Forgotten Women podcast. We have

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Speaker 1: to rescue these women from the security and and that

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Speaker 1: was it. And she claims that since then that I've

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Speaker 1: been four seeing her to do it, but it was

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Speaker 1: her idea, so and it's been it's been really fun

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Speaker 1: to to do, and it's been way more successful than

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Speaker 1: we expected, especially given that setup of you've never heard

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Speaker 1: of any of these people, but we're going to make

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Speaker 1: you interested in them. And it's been really fun to

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Speaker 1: have it take off and and be much much more

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Speaker 1: successful than we anticipated it being. I love that. And

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Speaker 1: it is the last day of March, which is still

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Speaker 1: technically Women's month. We'ven'tgotten it. Oh my god, it's March. March,

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Speaker 1: the longest month in the world. It really feels like

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Speaker 1: it's been this month for over two years now, because

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Speaker 1: I'm like, wait, I've been in quarantine for how long?

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Speaker 1: Because it feels like six years. I'm pretty sure I

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Speaker 1: died and came back and it's still the same time frame, right,

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Speaker 1: it's Groundhogs Day all the time. Well, we were so

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Speaker 1: excited when you talking with you about bringing in some

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Speaker 1: women that you want to talk about, and can you

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Speaker 1: kind of introduce us to who you have brought for

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Speaker 1: our listeners. Yeah, so, um, I have picked two of

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Speaker 1: our women who I think are some of my favorite

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Speaker 1: stories to tell and and it really is hard I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's you probably get this one, which is your favorite episode.

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Speaker 1: All of them don't make me choose a child. But

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Speaker 1: but I think these are two um important ones to

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Speaker 1: tell and and some of the most surprising that they

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Speaker 1: have been erased or that they have been ignored, because

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Speaker 1: some of the women that we profiled are are just

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Speaker 1: genuinely like no one knows about them except the person

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Speaker 1: that we talked to, because every every episode we have

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Speaker 1: a guest, and some of them just genuinely like this

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Speaker 1: guest found this person and no one in the world

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Speaker 1: knows about them except this person that's talking to us.

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Speaker 1: And those are exciting. But these ones are more well

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Speaker 1: known in certain circles and certain areas of the world,

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Speaker 1: but still just way less celebrated than they should be.

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Speaker 1: So I've chosen Harriet Jacobs, who is the author of

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Speaker 1: Incidents in the Life of a Slave Girl and she

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Speaker 1: was a self emancipated slave in the American South. And

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Speaker 1: noor Jahan, who was the only Mughal empress to rule

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Speaker 1: as a co emperor and sort of even more important

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Speaker 1: than her husband. So we're India and the uses a

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Speaker 1: couple of centuries apart, and the composite sides of the world, right,

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Speaker 1: and completely different situations. One was so yeah, I love

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Speaker 1: this variation, So yeah, tell us about Harriet Jacobs. I'm

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Speaker 1: not gonna lie. When I was delving into it, we

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Speaker 1: kind of had a similar story from our female first

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Speaker 1: also named Harriet, right, yeah, yeah, there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: I think we even set up the episode with her

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Speaker 1: similarity to Harriet Tubman, the famous Harriet, because the one

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Speaker 1: of the things that is frustrating about women's history is

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Speaker 1: that we have one slot for each story, right, we

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Speaker 1: have one slot for a runaway slave, and we have

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Speaker 1: one slot for a pilot, and we and we well,

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Speaker 1: we already talked about a black woman singer, so now

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Speaker 1: there's no more room for them, and there's plenty of

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Speaker 1: room for everyone. We talk about all kinds of kings,

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Speaker 1: and we don't just have room for one queen. But

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Speaker 1: her story is bananas, like, you couldn't make it up.

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Speaker 1: If you made it up, no one would believe you.

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Speaker 1: And that's what happened, is that her story is so

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Speaker 1: amazing and ridiculous that four hundred years everybody thought it

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Speaker 1: was fiction. They believed that this must be a composite

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Speaker 1: story trying to invoke the worst possible experiences in order

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Speaker 1: to serve abolition, and instead it's the absolutely factual narrative

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Speaker 1: of this real woman who was an enslaved person who

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Speaker 1: emancipated herself and whose story is not at all what

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Speaker 1: we expect. And that's what I love about her, is

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Speaker 1: that we when we think of in the u S,

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Speaker 1: when we think of runaway slave stories, the story is

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Speaker 1: that you run away, that you run north, and you,

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Speaker 1: if you're lucky, you go all the way to Canada.

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Speaker 1: But at least you run to the north, you leave

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Speaker 1: the location and you go somewhere else, and that's how

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Speaker 1: you become free. And Harriet Jacobs didn't. She ran away

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Speaker 1: across the street because she was the man who owned her,

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Speaker 1: who probably stole her by forging a will um, which

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Speaker 1: is a whole other horrific side of the story. She

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Speaker 1: probably should have been freed, but he forged a will

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Speaker 1: and he becomes to own her and is at least

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Speaker 1: sexually harassing her, and probably more. She can't tell the

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Speaker 1: truth about this. In nineteenth century writing eventually reatens to

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Speaker 1: sell her children to try to force her to put

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Speaker 1: up with his sexual advances, and she knows that as

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Speaker 1: long as she is there, he's going to keep trying

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Speaker 1: to abuse her children to get to her. But she

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Speaker 1: doesn't have any way to get north. She doesn't have

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Speaker 1: any funds, she doesn't have a network, she doesn't know

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Speaker 1: where the underground railroad is running, and so she runs

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Speaker 1: away across the street to her grandmother's house, wherein I

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Speaker 1: didn't know this was going to be this appropriate when

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Speaker 1: I chose her for this, but where she self isolates

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Speaker 1: in a coffin sized space in her grandmother's attic for

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Speaker 1: seven years. Now, if we're all losing our minds after

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Speaker 1: two weeks, and we can still go to the grocery

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Speaker 1: store and we can sit up, she is literally laying

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Speaker 1: down in a space that is seven by ten by

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Speaker 1: three ft tall, and it's in the eaves of the attic,

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Speaker 1: so it's three ft tall at the point, but it

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Speaker 1: slopes down to the side. She can lay on one side.

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Speaker 1: She can't even lay down and roll over in this

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Speaker 1: space for seven years. It's I genuinely don't even know

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Speaker 1: how to think about this right. My back's already heart

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Speaker 1: and thinking about this, and our our guest Mario and Dell,

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Speaker 1: who's wonderful. She's a professor at CE Boulder, and she

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Speaker 1: talks about when she teaches this book, she tapes out

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Speaker 1: on the floor these dimensions, and the tables in the

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Speaker 1: classroom are exactly three feet tall, so she teaches it

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Speaker 1: from under the table, just to help them realize how

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Speaker 1: small this space is. And you know, after one hour,

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Speaker 1: she can barely get up, and I mean very occasionally,

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Speaker 1: in the middle of the night, they would sneak her

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Speaker 1: down and let her walk around a little, and that's

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Speaker 1: the only reason she can walk. But she has physical

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Speaker 1: damage to her body for the rest of her life

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Speaker 1: from this. She has difficulty walking, and she has back problems,

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Speaker 1: and and you know, aside from the the extreme isolation

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Speaker 1: and the you know, being forced to be in the space,

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Speaker 1: it's also it's North Carolina and it's you know, a

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Speaker 1: hundred and twelve degrees and hundred percent humidity, and there

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Speaker 1: are bugs. And this is not a modern attic, this

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Speaker 1: is just planks, and it's raining and it's hot and

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Speaker 1: then it's freezing cold, and she is just entombed alife

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Speaker 1: in this space and that that to her, is preferable

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Speaker 1: to what looked from the outside as a good situation

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Speaker 1: as an enslaved person, I think really drives home. We

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Speaker 1: can tell all the narratives we want about, Oh, slavery

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Speaker 1: wasn't that bad. It was bad enough that this woman

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Speaker 1: spent seven years in a coffin to escape. Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: worse than that, to me is that her children didn't

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Speaker 1: even know where she was. Her grandmother knows where she is,

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Speaker 1: and her uncle knows where she is. No one else

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Speaker 1: knows where she is. And so she can see her

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Speaker 1: children in the streets, she can hear them visiting her

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Speaker 1: grandmother's house, and they don't know she's there. That I

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Speaker 1: just can't. I can't imagine. It's brilliant too, because he's

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Speaker 1: not looking here. No one would stay here, and he

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Speaker 1: immediately assumes she's gone north, and she plays into that.

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Speaker 1: She is writing letters as if she's in New York

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Speaker 1: and sending them with people to mail back from the north,

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Speaker 1: and he is spending all of this time, he keeps

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Speaker 1: going north and wasting all this time looking for her

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Speaker 1: when she's five hundred feet away and he has no

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Speaker 1: ideas she's there. I mean, it's brilliant and horrifying and

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Speaker 1: sobering and amazing. Eventually he agrees to sell her children

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Speaker 1: to their father, who's a white lawyer in town, and

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Speaker 1: so she knows children are safe. He doesn't free his children,

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Speaker 1: this lawyer, but at least they're not going to get

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Speaker 1: sold to the plantation anymore. So then she eventually does

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Speaker 1: go north and gets incredibly involved in abolition. She's running

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Speaker 1: reading rooms, she is working on running other slaves. You know,

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Speaker 1: she's doing all of this incredible work, but mostly she's

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Speaker 1: focusing on education. She was educated because the woman who

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Speaker 1: owned her before this man treated her well for an

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Speaker 1: enslave person and educated her. And she knew how important

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Speaker 1: that was to be able to read and write, to

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Speaker 1: be able to escape in a way from the the

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Speaker 1: absolute brutal reality of her world. So she starts some

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Speaker 1: of the first colored schools. She starts these massive education

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Speaker 1: programs for all of these escaping and and freed slaves.

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Speaker 1: And she is a huge force for black education in

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Speaker 1: the Northern United States and just a hugely important person.

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Speaker 1: And so when she publishes this memoir anonymously because she

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Speaker 1: at the point she publishes this memoir, she is still

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Speaker 1: officially owned by Dr. Norkam her the man who owns her,

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Speaker 1: or Dr Norcom's daughter technically owns her, and so she

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Speaker 1: publishes this memoir anonymously and no one knows who it is,

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Speaker 1: and it eventually gets it's so it's so wild that

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Speaker 1: people assume it must be fake and it must be

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Speaker 1: written by a white woman. And so the woman who

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Speaker 1: writes a preface for her one of her friends, it

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Speaker 1: starts being ascribed to her lydia child. And even though

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Speaker 1: she keeps saying no, no, no, no no, I didn't

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Speaker 1: write this. But that's how it's taught for a hundred

258
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Speaker 1: years in schools that this is fiction by a white woman.

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Speaker 1: And it's not until the nineteen eighties someone starts putting

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Speaker 1: this together and realizes, wait a minute, this story tracks

261
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Speaker 1: exactly with the things that that important, famous abolitionist educator

262
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Speaker 1: Harriet Jacobs said about her life. Tracks everything down and

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Speaker 1: even to the floor plans of the houses and the

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Speaker 1: description of all of these places. It matches exactly. And

265
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Speaker 1: they realized this was Harriet Jacobs who wrote this, So

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Speaker 1: she was already important and famous, and no one knew

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Speaker 1: she wrote this book. It's it's just unbelievable to me.

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Speaker 1: So it took over a hundred, like hundred forty years

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Speaker 1: almost for them to realize who this belonged to. When

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Speaker 1: even though when it first came out it wasn't sold

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Speaker 1: as fiction, it was sold as this is a narrative,

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Speaker 1: this is a true narrative, but there were some fake

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Speaker 1: narratives floating around. And but I think, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: very easy for people to say, well, and I'm sure

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Speaker 1: that there was an element of this is very well written.

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Speaker 1: It must be a white woman, and it's not employing

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Speaker 1: all of the tricks that we expect, and and so

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Speaker 1: it just it makes me so happy that she's getting

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Speaker 1: credit now and it is being taught a lot more

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Speaker 1: in classes. But we don't have enough slave narratives, as

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Speaker 1: this genre is called already taught, but that when we

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Speaker 1: do read them, we read Frederick Douglas is or we

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00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:30,560
Speaker 1: read these men's narratives. When frankly, her story is the

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Speaker 1: wildest story that you have ever heard about. All this,

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is the very pair debt. There's so

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Speaker 1: much more going on in her story than these tiny

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00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:43,919
Speaker 1: little vignettes here and you know, running off over and

288
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Speaker 1: over again, nor con traming to find her and the

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00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:48,280
Speaker 1: white family she's living with, sending her off with their

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Speaker 1: baby so that she can escape, like, no, no one

291
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Speaker 1: will stop you if you have a white baby with you, go,

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Speaker 1: go go, and just astonishing, and the way that she

293
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Speaker 1: talks about the importance of emancipating herself that one of

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Speaker 1: her friends eventually purchases her to free her. And while

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00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:10,960
Speaker 1: that's a very kind act and she acknowledges like that

296
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Speaker 1: was probably the best way to prevent me from being

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Speaker 1: sold back into slavery, it breaks her heart because once

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Speaker 1: again she's been you know, after decades of being free

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Speaker 1: of her own work, she is again, she said, Now

300
00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:30,480
Speaker 1: history has a bill of sale that Harriett Jacobs was

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Speaker 1: sold in the nineteenth century in New York City, when

302
00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:40,239
Speaker 1: I had already freed myself. So it it's complicated and

303
00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:44,119
Speaker 1: it's messy, and it doesn't conform to the ways that

304
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Speaker 1: we like to tell these stories. And this really was

305
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Speaker 1: the first one that pointed out that women have an

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00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:56,639
Speaker 1: exceptionally specific problem when they are enslaved people. Right that now,

307
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Speaker 1: our standard narrative of slavery includes sexual violence, but didn't

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00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:03,240
Speaker 1: until that point, no one had talked about it, and

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Speaker 1: it was carefully hidden away as a thing that didn't happen,

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Speaker 1: and and she's the one who shone a light on

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Speaker 1: it and said, women, if you value Christianity, if you

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Speaker 1: value fidelity and marriage, you have to abolish slavery, because

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00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:21,320
Speaker 1: look what's happening right under your nose. It was just

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00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:27,199
Speaker 1: brilliantly strategic writing too. Yeah. One of the things I

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00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:30,480
Speaker 1: read while UM we were researching this, there was a

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Speaker 1: quote that our researchers said that this was specifically for

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Speaker 1: white women and for them to acknowledge that this is

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Speaker 1: something that's happening and to call out the patriarchy for

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00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:45,600
Speaker 1: sexual tyranny over black women like herself, and that she

320
00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:47,840
Speaker 1: was trying to put it in delicate ways, but to

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Speaker 1: let them know this is actually happening, and you were

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Speaker 1: allowing this to happen, and it's happening in your house,

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Speaker 1: because I think until it had been talked about, of course,

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00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:02,600
Speaker 1: most women knew this was happening because it's happening in

325
00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:05,960
Speaker 1: their house, but it's not spoken about, and so they

326
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:09,760
Speaker 1: don't know that it's happening everywhere. It's humiliating and shameful

327
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Speaker 1: that it's happening in my house. But once I find

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00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:15,840
Speaker 1: out that it's happening, everywhere. This is not me. This

329
00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:19,160
Speaker 1: is not a me problem. This is a societal problem. Right.

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Speaker 1: It's not that I can't keep my husband's interest, which

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Speaker 1: is usually how it was framed, horrifyingly, It's that this

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Speaker 1: system is a system of sexual assault that we have,

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Speaker 1: you know, codified, and that has to go if we're

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Speaker 1: going to call ourselves Christians. Yeah, and I did like

335
00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:41,440
Speaker 1: her point of saying that she almost it almost seemed

336
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Speaker 1: like she was implying, and you can correct me if

337
00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:47,119
Speaker 1: I'm wrong, that it was a lesser evil to have, uh,

338
00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:51,960
Speaker 1: this love affair with this white man, definitely in order

339
00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:55,280
Speaker 1: to kind of validate what's happening and to actually pull

340
00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:59,080
Speaker 1: herself from that situation as well. Right, Yeah, that her

341
00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:03,359
Speaker 1: her only choice chices were succumb to. I mean, in

342
00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,080
Speaker 1: the story she doesn't succumb, but right, that's not a

343
00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:09,639
Speaker 1: choice you can make, uh to her owner who is

344
00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:14,920
Speaker 1: trying to rape her or have an affair consensually. Whatever.

345
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Speaker 1: We can argue about what consent means in this scenario

346
00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:21,720
Speaker 1: with a white man who at least might be able

347
00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:25,360
Speaker 1: to buy her children his children, right and might at

348
00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:30,000
Speaker 1: least protect them from this system in a tiny amount,

349
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,520
Speaker 1: and might at least give her some semblance of agency

350
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:35,760
Speaker 1: that she made a choice to do this, and but

351
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,280
Speaker 1: she knows that very well that this is a choice

352
00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:40,760
Speaker 1: that will be hugely frowned on by these very devout

353
00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:44,440
Speaker 1: Christian abolitionist women she's writing to, and that balancing act

354
00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:48,560
Speaker 1: she has to do of that's the point. Look, what

355
00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:51,720
Speaker 1: choices you left me? You left me no choices. My

356
00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:55,760
Speaker 1: choices are affair. Her owner wouldn't let her marry the

357
00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:59,400
Speaker 1: man she wanted to marry, a free black man, so

358
00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:03,359
Speaker 1: she does have choices outside of these ones, and she

359
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,639
Speaker 1: made the best choice she could, even though she says repeatedly,

360
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:10,160
Speaker 1: knowing her audience, I know this was wrong, but it

361
00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:14,080
Speaker 1: was less wrong than the other choices. And that old

362
00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:16,679
Speaker 1: man was Sam tread Well Sawyer, who ended up being

363
00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:20,280
Speaker 1: in the US House of Representatives, right right, Yeah, the

364
00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:23,960
Speaker 1: man who significance, Yeah, and who was sent who bought

365
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:27,719
Speaker 1: his children and then sent them to work for his

366
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:33,280
Speaker 1: white children as enslaved people. I mean they treated them

367
00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:37,080
Speaker 1: a little better. No, they didn't. They didn't. He bought

368
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Speaker 1: his children and put them to work. It's just it's

369
00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:42,439
Speaker 1: not the White Night story that we wanted to be,

370
00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:46,160
Speaker 1: which is an important thing to pay attention to, you know,

371
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:48,520
Speaker 1: and that's kind of there are no white saviors in

372
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,240
Speaker 1: this story. Yeah, and that was kind of her point,

373
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Speaker 1: is Hey, I think quote she said, to tell you

374
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Speaker 1: the truth, let it cost me what it may. Yeah,

375
00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,520
Speaker 1: and and that makes a lot of sense. This, like,

376
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,480
Speaker 1: there's no good situation. This is the best that I

377
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:06,520
Speaker 1: could do. And now I'm able to fight for my

378
00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,560
Speaker 1: rise and for others and let people know the atrocities

379
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:11,840
Speaker 1: that are happening that you are turning a blind eye to,

380
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:16,560
Speaker 1: which is really significant of a conversation in itself. Yeah,

381
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:19,840
Speaker 1: it's I mean, aside from the story, which is all

382
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,159
Speaker 1: very I mean, it seems it's the first time you

383
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:25,159
Speaker 1: read it. You know, students reading go, this can't be true.

384
00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:29,560
Speaker 1: This is exaggerated, it's verified, it's fact checked. She is

385
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:34,919
Speaker 1: underplaying the story, if anything. They literally said that she

386
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:37,399
Speaker 1: was kind of trying to make it mild enough that

387
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:40,280
Speaker 1: people would read it, right, Yeah, you can't tell the

388
00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:43,760
Speaker 1: truth about what really happened, or it'll be too vile

389
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:47,240
Speaker 1: for ladies to read. I mean, and walking that line

390
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:51,280
Speaker 1: of making it voyeuristically exciting enough that people want to

391
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:53,800
Speaker 1: read it who might not be interested in abolition, but

392
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 1: also not selling out your own dignity. I mean, it's

393
00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:02,359
Speaker 1: a masterful of writing. It really is. And and the

394
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:06,320
Speaker 1: woman who edited it, Lydia Child. Again, often even when

395
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 1: they said once they realized, oh, she didn't write this,

396
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 1: Harriett Jacobs right it, there are a lot of people

397
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,080
Speaker 1: who still say, well, she heavily edited, but she herself

398
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:16,520
Speaker 1: was very upfront and said, I did almost nothing. I

399
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:20,679
Speaker 1: moved a few things around this. She wrote this. I

400
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:24,360
Speaker 1: didn't fix this. This is how she wrote it. Um

401
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:29,359
Speaker 1: and that urged to delegitimize her voice. I think is

402
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:34,200
Speaker 1: it tells us a lot and it's upsetting. So, I mean,

403
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:38,239
Speaker 1: it's an amazing book. I really strongly recommend everybody read it.

404
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:43,439
Speaker 1: It's just astonishing from a plot perspective, from a literary perspective,

405
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 1: from a history perspective, it's a gem of a book.

406
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 1: And her daughter went on to become an extremely important educator.

407
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,800
Speaker 1: And I mean she just she really she made a

408
00:24:56,040 --> 00:25:00,640
Speaker 1: powerful impact on the world and changed it in really

409
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 1: important ways, even when no one knew that she wrote this.

410
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 1: And now that we put these things together, that this

411
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:12,400
Speaker 1: woman wrote this book, that's it's amazing. So Yeah, Harriet Jacobs.

412
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:18,119
Speaker 1: I hope she deserves a lot more attention she's getting.

413
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:22,640
Speaker 1: And she died in d C. Right, Yeah, and she

414
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,440
Speaker 1: was a significant impact in just women in bondage and slavery.

415
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:31,119
Speaker 1: And again, the horrendous things that were are happening that

416
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:35,359
Speaker 1: people oftentimes want to ignore because it's just you know, shames,

417
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 1: there sensibilities. Yeah, the the determination of so many people

418
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,919
Speaker 1: to clean this up and too, to convince ourselves that

419
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 1: slavery wasn't that bad. It was so much worse than

420
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 1: you can imagine. Imagine the worst thing you can imagine

421
00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 1: about slavery, and it was worse than that. And just

422
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 1: let's just go it's slavery the word of itself. It's

423
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,920
Speaker 1: gonna be bad. That's such an obnoxious conversation. And saying

424
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 1: ownership is not a bad thing, right, well, as long

425
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 1: as you know, as long as they weren't physically beaten,

426
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 1: it wasn't that. But no, you owned a person, You

427
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,920
Speaker 1: own a person. They didn't get paid, they didn't get

428
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 1: any kind of compensation, they didn't get help, they weren't

429
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 1: treated as equals. That means as bad and whatever. The

430
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,679
Speaker 1: greatest situation is, Yeah, if you wouldn't be willing to

431
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 1: trade right now. Then it was bad. We have some

432
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:36,200
Speaker 1: more of our conversation, but first we have a quick

433
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 1: break for a word from our sponsor, and we're back.

434
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,680
Speaker 1: Thank you sponsor. So let's get back into it now.

435
00:26:54,760 --> 00:27:00,040
Speaker 1: Let's go back even further into the past side of

436
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 1: the world. Yes, and tell us about our next famous

437
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:08,440
Speaker 1: fabulous woman. Yeah, nor Johan. And first nor Johan, I

438
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,680
Speaker 1: had never heard of her until I did this interview

439
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 1: for this episode with Dr Ruby Lall of Emory University,

440
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:19,880
Speaker 1: who's wonderful and Katie teaches this period in history a lot,

441
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:21,959
Speaker 1: so she had heard of her, but there was still

442
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 1: this whole aspect of the story that she had never heard.

443
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 1: Because nor John is wildly famous in India. She is

444
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:34,199
Speaker 1: a household name. Her story is the story that you

445
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,200
Speaker 1: hear from your grandmother and your mother. It is a famous,

446
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:42,679
Speaker 1: famous story. But her story doesn't tell any of her story.

447
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:47,880
Speaker 1: The story that is famous about nor Johan is about

448
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 1: her falling in love with Emperor John Gear and then

449
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 1: marrying him. And that's her story, like she she married

450
00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:00,639
Speaker 1: him the end, and it's a beautiful love story. I

451
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 1: mean it is, and I think that's important too, for

452
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,159
Speaker 1: especially those who study European history and Western history, have

453
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 1: this idea that like love wasn't a thing courtly, you know,

454
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:13,639
Speaker 1: until courtly love, no one fell in love. Nonsense. The

455
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 1: Eastern world has been talking about love for thousands of years.

456
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:20,920
Speaker 1: But this love story, this really powerful genre of love story,

457
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 1: is an important thing to talk about in the way

458
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 1: that women influence society's But it's so frustrating because this

459
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 1: woman was amazing and none of the stuff she did

460
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:37,240
Speaker 1: is in her story that everyone knows. And so Ruby

461
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 1: Law's biography, which is called Empress, and it's just amazing.

462
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,959
Speaker 1: It's so great, and I recommend it really strongly takes

463
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 1: all of that and puts it all back together. And

464
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,959
Speaker 1: as not a historian myself, but someone who has studied

465
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 1: a lot of history and women's studies in one of

466
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 1: these related fields, I love when historians acknowledge the power

467
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 1: of literally true, the power of mythology, the power of story,

468
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 1: and that it's not just written off as well, that's

469
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 1: the legend, yeah, but the legend has affected the history.

470
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:12,719
Speaker 1: She is as much her legendary self as she was

471
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 1: her historical self now, and so she brings all of

472
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 1: those things in together and talks about the intersection of

473
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 1: those in ways that I really love, and but then

474
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 1: also tells us the unbelievable forgotten facts about Nora Jahn,

475
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 1: such as she was a world renowned tiger hunter and

476
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 1: she once shot four man eating tigers with six musket

477
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 1: shots from the top of an elephant. I mean, there's

478
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 1: not a better story in the world than that, no

479
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 1: matter what else happened, Like just those sentences. Tier Queen.

480
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 1: Yeah she was. I mean she was at the time

481
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 1: when only the king, only the emperor is allowed to

482
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:09,960
Speaker 1: kill a tiger, and she does it, which is how

483
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 1: we know she was the emperor. She was co regent

484
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 1: with her husband, who was either ill or alcoholic or

485
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,239
Speaker 1: maybe both and kind of out of the picture for

486
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 1: a lot of it. She took over and she is

487
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 1: running it and instead of thankfully running scary side chose

488
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 1: who's she is rescuing people from man eating tigers on

489
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 1: the rampage. But that, I mean, I just muskets have

490
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 1: barely been invented. No one knows how to shoot them,

491
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 1: and if anyone has ever shot an old school like

492
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 1: black powder rifle, musket something, they are difficult and they

493
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 1: are wildly inaccurate. I mean, if you hit anything within

494
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 1: an eight foot range, you did well. And she kills

495
00:30:55,400 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 1: four man eating tigers in one day with six shots

496
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 1: from an elephant, which you know is not standing there

497
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 1: nicely while tigers nippet its heels and she's shooting a

498
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 1: musket like this is an impossible job and she does it.

499
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 1: That's that woman is. I don't care what else she did.

500
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 1: That woman I want to learn about, right, and but

501
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 1: she was absolutely incredible. She is taking over this very

502
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 1: male dominated society and ruling and stepping into the role

503
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 1: of emperor in very public and meaningful ways, and and

504
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 1: doing it effectively that people love her. She's mint minting

505
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 1: coins in her own name, which is the number one

506
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:44,959
Speaker 1: sign that you know, that's how in most of history

507
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 1: we know who was in charge there on the coin.

508
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 1: And she's doing executive orders with her own seal, not

509
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 1: her husband's name, her name. Just really astonishing power that

510
00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 1: she's wielding. But then, like her husband gets kidnapped by

511
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 1: people who are trying to take over, probably one of

512
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 1: his sons is involved trying to undermine his his rule,

513
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 1: and rather than send the army or send one of

514
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 1: her stepsons or do political channels or whatever you know,

515
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 1: a good wife he should do. She gets on another

516
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 1: elephant and storms off across India to go rescue him.

517
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 1: And then when her stepson sells her out and it

518
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 1: doesn't work, she gets captured, and she's now captured with him.

519
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 1: Rather than feeling bad about that, she goes, great, I'm

520
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 1: inside the machine. Now this will be even easier, and

521
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 1: she stages an elaborate like escape coup from inside the

522
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:45,480
Speaker 1: prison camp, raises an army under the noses of her captors.

523
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 1: Because she's a woman, she couldn't be and escapes and

524
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 1: rides triumphantly back into town with her husband that she

525
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 1: has saved. I mean, it's just it's made up, crazy,

526
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 1: hilarious nonsense, and it absolutely happened. It's impossible that you

527
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 1: did that, and she did it. She was just the coolest,

528
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 1: unstoppable force of this Mughal empress. She dressed like a man.

529
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 1: She would go hunting. She sometimes dressed like a man,

530
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 1: but other times was like the peak of fashion. She

531
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 1: was a fashion designer and influenced the entire fashion of

532
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 1: a hundred years of India. She designed jewelry, She was

533
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 1: an artist. She designed tombs, she designed buildings. She shifted

534
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 1: the course of Indian architecture forever. Like the most famous building,

535
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 1: the taj Mahal, is based on the tomb she built

536
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 1: for her parents that was wild and ridiculous white marble.

537
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 1: Who uses white marble, We use red sandstone. And she

538
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 1: made up this new hole entirely different form and then

539
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 1: everyone went, oh, it's kind of cool and copied it.

540
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 1: And that's where we get the taj Mahal from her

541
00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 1: step son. She was just this massive force in society

542
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:11,720
Speaker 1: and that she's known for getting married. It's frustrating because

543
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,359
Speaker 1: not only well, yes, she got married, but she kind

544
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 1: of fixed the mistakes have been occurring or what are

545
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,399
Speaker 1: the card under the husband's reign, who again was either

546
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 1: sick or an alcoholic or whatever whatnot, And she was like, no,

547
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,839
Speaker 1: I got this, let me let me not. On top

548
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 1: of that, she's like, and you're gonna see me do it.

549
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 1: You're going to see that no one making this change right,

550
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,760
Speaker 1: and that everybody apparently was cool with it until until

551
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:38,879
Speaker 1: she wrote off on elephant at the head of the army.

552
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 1: That seems to have been the line when her stepson went, okay,

553
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:45,399
Speaker 1: stop it no, I'm in charge now you're not a man.

554
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:50,479
Speaker 1: But I mean, it's just it's amazing, and I think

555
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 1: it it illustrates the point that we we as soon

556
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:56,920
Speaker 1: as she is out of power, they erase her again.

557
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 1: And they not only erase her, they base all women,

558
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,439
Speaker 1: that all women are chaotic and unstable, and that's why

559
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 1: she was chaotic and unstable, and therefore she was terrible

560
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 1: and we should not talk about her anymore. And it

561
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 1: this very effective erasure that doesn't just erase her, that

562
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:16,400
Speaker 1: we do this over and over and over again. We

563
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 1: act like women weren't ever in power. And this comes

564
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 1: up in the podcast all the time that we pretend

565
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 1: that women ruling is an aberration that just every once

566
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:29,799
Speaker 1: in a while we get a weird queen victoria, but

567
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:32,320
Speaker 1: it's not the norm, and it doesn't happen very often,

568
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:36,240
Speaker 1: and it's and we shouldn't encourage it. And that's nonsense.

569
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:38,800
Speaker 1: Women are in power all over the place all the time.

570
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 1: And one of our other guests, Pam Toler, who's wonderful.

571
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,880
Speaker 1: She has a book called Women Warriors that's fantastic. She

572
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:48,359
Speaker 1: Um was a guest on another episode, but she talked

573
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 1: about when she went into writing that book, she had

574
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:53,760
Speaker 1: a list of, you know, a few dozen famous warrior

575
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:55,920
Speaker 1: women that she knew about, and she stood by the

576
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 1: end she had thousands. She had thousands of names of

577
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,440
Speaker 1: these women who were rulers, warriors and broke all of

578
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:04,759
Speaker 1: these norms, which means they aren't norms. I mean, it

579
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 1: happens all the time, but we every time we pretend like, oh,

580
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,279
Speaker 1: this was unusual, and then five years later happens again

581
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 1: and go, oh, unheard of, never seen this happen before.

582
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,360
Speaker 1: Maybe pay attention that it happens a lot and it's normal.

583
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:21,759
Speaker 1: But as long as we keep women convinced that women

584
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:23,840
Speaker 1: have never been in power, women don't ask for power,

585
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:30,239
Speaker 1: it's easier to insist that it's not normal. I think

586
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 1: that's one of the conversations that we've had with past guests,

587
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 1: as the fact that there's always a discovery that when

588
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:38,400
Speaker 1: we think we know who did the first, there was

589
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:40,840
Speaker 1: also someone else who may have done that first, and

590
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,160
Speaker 1: we just didn't recognize it until then because they weren't

591
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 1: given the credit for the world that they had done.

592
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:49,359
Speaker 1: And then as we keep continuing to dig more and more,

593
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,400
Speaker 1: we're realizing there's a lot of significant people is specifically

594
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:54,760
Speaker 1: women are those who identify as women are non binary

595
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 1: that just got passed over, right, or at least just

596
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:03,359
Speaker 1: the their ideas stolen or their the credit taken from them, right. Yeah,

597
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:06,920
Speaker 1: I mean even even when we give women credit, it's

598
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:10,440
Speaker 1: often at the expense of other women, like the famously

599
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:14,600
Speaker 1: and I adore her. Mary Shelley invented science fiction, as

600
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:19,360
Speaker 1: we all are told. No, she didn't. Margaret Cavendish invented

601
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:23,840
Speaker 1: science fiction two years earlier, but we don't pay attention

602
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 1: to it, you know, and I love Mary Shelley, but

603
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:28,800
Speaker 1: she didn't invent science fiction. It was a thing well before,

604
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 1: and and that we don't talk about the many, many

605
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:35,400
Speaker 1: generations and layers of women who have been doing stuff.

606
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:39,280
Speaker 1: We picked the one story and and Mary shelley story

607
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 1: is amazing and fantastic and we should tell it, but

608
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:45,759
Speaker 1: we don't need to add things that, you know, Frankenstein

609
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 1: stands on its own. Whether it was the first time

610
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:50,360
Speaker 1: someone had done something like that or not, it's it

611
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 1: is peak science fiction, but it's not the person. Yeah,

612
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,479
Speaker 1: and I do love when we talk about these amazing women,

613
00:37:57,480 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 1: whether it's true or not. We do have this fantasized

614
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:03,799
Speaker 1: level of and and we know beauty does accentuate and

615
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 1: help give some privilege. But the fact Nor John was

616
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 1: known as a beauty as one of the first things

617
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 1: as you recognize, and then all of the soap opera backgrounds, yea,

618
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 1: that she was in love with the emperor but had

619
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 1: to marry someone else. And I mean, it's an unusual

620
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 1: story anyway, because now the Empress is someone who is

621
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 1: a widow, right, she's already been married. That's not something

622
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 1: that's supposed to happen, you know, But but he loved

623
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 1: her before she got married, So I mean, it's it's

624
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 1: an interesting, unusual story, especially from a Western perspective who

625
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 1: doesn't understand the way these stories work in Mughal culture.

626
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:47,320
Speaker 1: But it's it's just it's a wild ride no matter

627
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 1: what you know about her, And and Ruby Lall had

628
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:52,719
Speaker 1: to do all of this detective work to find out

629
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 1: these things about her, you know that, Yeah, we all

630
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 1: why do they keep talking about her hunting? Why is

631
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:01,919
Speaker 1: they they're so obsessed with her tigers? Because they were

632
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,440
Speaker 1: telling us something because if you you know, if we

633
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:07,319
Speaker 1: don't know until Ruby Lall digs this up, who was

634
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 1: allowed to hunt tigers the emperor. When they keep talking

635
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 1: about this in court documents, they're making a point she

636
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:16,920
Speaker 1: is the emperor that we we don't have the historical

637
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 1: knowledge to understand the clues they've been trying to give us,

638
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:24,320
Speaker 1: you know. And I do love that her fact that

639
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 1: her name was and I'm going to butcher this mayor Nissa,

640
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:30,759
Speaker 1: that she was born with the name which was son

641
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,880
Speaker 1: among women, and then the Emperor changed her name to

642
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:36,839
Speaker 1: new John, which is the light of the world. Right.

643
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:40,400
Speaker 1: I love that kind of like the transition for that

644
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 1: as well, to show the significance of how amazing she

645
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:49,319
Speaker 1: was an influencing the emperor. Yeah, I mean he absolutely that.

646
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 1: The love story part is not a lie. He absolutely

647
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:57,040
Speaker 1: adored her. I mean it was a devoted, passionate love

648
00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 1: affair that also turns into this honest ng story of

649
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 1: female power and political boundary pushing and and historical detective work.

650
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:13,240
Speaker 1: It's it's interesting. It's really the portraits of her bizarre

651
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:17,799
Speaker 1: and fascinating. There's one of her loading a musket. I mean,

652
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:20,720
Speaker 1: have you ever seen a royal portrait of a queen

653
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:24,880
Speaker 1: where she's loading a musket? No, And she's dressed like

654
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:26,440
Speaker 1: a man. The only reason they can tell it's a

655
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 1: woman is the very small waist and the henna on

656
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 1: her feet. I mean, this broke every boundary of art.

657
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 1: Women all look the same in moughal art. Right, it's

658
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,759
Speaker 1: the same woman, the perfect woman with different dresses on,

659
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:41,040
Speaker 1: and she doesn't look anything like that? Was that her?

660
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:43,920
Speaker 1: The royal artist who did this had never done another

661
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:46,320
Speaker 1: portrait like that ever for the rest of his career.

662
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:50,080
Speaker 1: So is she insisting? Is she saying no drama draw?

663
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:53,319
Speaker 1: You know who knows? And it's so it's so many

664
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:56,400
Speaker 1: fun rabbit holes to go down, like who was this woman?

665
00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:01,239
Speaker 1: And you know, how did she manage all of this,

666
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 1: all of these grown stepsons that are vying for power

667
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:10,359
Speaker 1: as soon as her husband dies. And it's just it's fascinating,

668
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 1: it is she's she's such a fascinating woman. I did

669
00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:16,920
Speaker 1: love that that there was like a poem about her.

670
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:22,279
Speaker 1: He was like, though, nor John being formal woman in

671
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:26,520
Speaker 1: the ranks of men, she's a tiger slayer. Yeah, yeah,

672
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:30,760
Speaker 1: making it very clear, like don't mess with her. She's

673
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:34,320
Speaker 1: she's in charge here, you know. I mean, unfortunately it

674
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 1: does sound like, oh, she's not one of those women

675
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:39,400
Speaker 1: different I mean, that's an unfortunate say, but at the

676
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 1: same time, it kind of is the credit to her

677
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 1: that she took a challenge. It was like, Nah, I'm

678
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:45,800
Speaker 1: not I'm not going to stay behind. I'm going to

679
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:49,360
Speaker 1: be the forefront of this. Watch me. Yeah, I will

680
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:52,799
Speaker 1: write an elephant into battle and I will bring my

681
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:56,880
Speaker 1: husband home. And she did. I mean, it's just amazing.

682
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:02,320
Speaker 1: And I especially love the stories where patriarchy ignores women

683
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:06,839
Speaker 1: and gets bitten for it. Right that over and over

684
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:09,439
Speaker 1: again women, i mean the Roman Empire, every single time

685
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,279
Speaker 1: a woman rises up against them, they're like, what is this?

686
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:14,920
Speaker 1: We have never seen a woman. We had no idea

687
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 1: how women could fight, and they don't. They refuse to

688
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:20,840
Speaker 1: acknowledge that as possible. So it keeps happening over and

689
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:23,240
Speaker 1: over and over all. These women defeat the Roman Empire

690
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:26,360
Speaker 1: because they refuse to admit that it might happen. It

691
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:30,279
Speaker 1: just happened three years ago. Man, Hey, attention. Yeah, there's

692
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 1: nothing more dangerous than underestimate made woman. So that when

693
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:38,239
Speaker 1: you can use that ideology, you know they're not going

694
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 1: to pay attention to you. You know, so many spies

695
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:43,640
Speaker 1: during the Civil War, spies all the time, who just

696
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:47,320
Speaker 1: are absolutely they know that the men aren't going to

697
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 1: think they're anything, so they could do whatever they want.

698
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 1: It just didn't interview about these amazing teenage girls who

699
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:57,279
Speaker 1: were the some of the most effective anti Nazi resistance

700
00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:01,760
Speaker 1: workers in the nether Lens during World War Two because

701
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:04,759
Speaker 1: they were cute teenage girls. And nobody thought that cute

702
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:07,279
Speaker 1: teenage girl is gonna ride by on her bicycle and

703
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:11,799
Speaker 1: assassinate the Nazi captain, but they did. I mean, it

704
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:18,160
Speaker 1: was just I love those when you you take the

705
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:20,560
Speaker 1: terrible structure as you've been given and use them to

706
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:23,960
Speaker 1: subvert the power. Those my favorite stories always. I love it.

707
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:27,360
Speaker 1: I'm just so glad people are doing this work because

708
00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:30,080
Speaker 1: it is something we talked about a lot. How unfortunately,

709
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 1: these stories have been lost, And there's a part of

710
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:36,080
Speaker 1: me that when I hear such an amazing stories like these,

711
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:38,719
Speaker 1: I'm so glad to hear them. They're great, but I'm

712
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:42,359
Speaker 1: also angry that I'm learning them so late in life.

713
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:45,879
Speaker 1: I would have loved this story about a tiger slayer

714
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:47,439
Speaker 1: when I was a kid. I would have loved How

715
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:51,360
Speaker 1: did this not feature in our history classes? Come on,

716
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:55,279
Speaker 1: you know, it's not a movie like a big you know,

717
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:00,440
Speaker 1: lots in India. Right, there's lots of great Bollywood versions

718
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 1: of this, which I adore Bollywood, so like they've done

719
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:06,120
Speaker 1: it better than you need more dancing anyway, So we

720
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:09,439
Speaker 1: wouldn't got enough dancing in that fight. My teenage sons

721
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 1: when they were quite young, they've grown up watching Bollywood

722
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:13,720
Speaker 1: with me and one of them, Um, we were watching

723
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:17,000
Speaker 1: some American, famous American movie I can't remember, and my

724
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 1: son at that point, probably about nine, set the problem

725
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:22,560
Speaker 1: with American movies is there aren't enough angry dance offs.

726
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 1: That is the problem with American movies. You can only

727
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 1: get that in the fifties and sixties. And yeah, why yeah,

728
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:36,240
Speaker 1: that's why we love that. Right, you need more dance offs.

729
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 1: And I'm just saying, Hollywood, get it together, agreed. And

730
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:44,279
Speaker 1: that's the other part of this, right, that that we

731
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:47,920
Speaker 1: the Western world in scare quotes just feel free to

732
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:52,680
Speaker 1: absolutely ignore the entire rest of the world, and that

733
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:55,799
Speaker 1: you know, with that story doesn't matter. I mean, come on,

734
00:44:57,040 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 1: that story is amazing. And if you want to make kids,

735
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:03,239
Speaker 1: you know, my son, my younger son, just about a

736
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:06,440
Speaker 1: year ago, just in passing, mentioned that history was boring

737
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:10,160
Speaker 1: and I just like his brother went, oh, don't, don't

738
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:15,440
Speaker 1: what do you know? It's like what? And so I

739
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:19,160
Speaker 1: pulled it together because I know what he means. Right,

740
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:21,879
Speaker 1: we tell history so badly. And so we were out.

741
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 1: I was forcing him to walk with me around this lake,

742
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:26,319
Speaker 1: and so for three laps around the lake, I told

743
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:28,319
Speaker 1: him just the story of Henry the eighth and his

744
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:32,760
Speaker 1: three wives and his six wives and just all the details,

745
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:35,600
Speaker 1: and people walking past we're looking at us like what

746
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:39,879
Speaker 1: that's a weird conversation. And then she was beheaded. But

747
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:41,880
Speaker 1: by the end of the lake, I said, so, do

748
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:43,640
Speaker 1: you think history is boring? He said, no, I think

749
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:49,839
Speaker 1: my history teachers are boring. That's amazing, thank you. But

750
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:52,799
Speaker 1: that's that's like so many good stories. And I think

751
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:55,759
Speaker 1: it's from where you're from too, because growing up in

752
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 1: Georgia myself, as you can tell from my accident, uh,

753
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 1: I got the a edited dumb down, not completely history

754
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:07,560
Speaker 1: of things, because you know, when you are from a

755
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:13,840
Speaker 1: very politically angled Yeah. I don't even know how to

756
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:15,439
Speaker 1: say that all of that, but you know your your

757
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:18,839
Speaker 1: history is it through a very specific filter variation. I mean,

758
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:21,239
Speaker 1: even to the point when we're talking about Harriet Jacobs again,

759
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:24,439
Speaker 1: that point of slavery wasn't that bad. The Civil War

760
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:29,680
Speaker 1: wasn't based on slavery. A little more like every single

761
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:33,280
Speaker 1: one of the state's mentioned slavery and their statement of secession.

762
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 1: But that's probably just a coincidence, right, I mean, that's

763
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:37,839
Speaker 1: kind of like a variation of history. So you start

764
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 1: being like, wait, this is not this history is not

765
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 1: pertained And again for me as an Asian woman that

766
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 1: I could call myself brown woman, and I'm like, that's

767
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:48,440
Speaker 1: this is not pertained to me in that level. So

768
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 1: you have a very like excued version. And I would

769
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 1: love to, yeah, hear about this badass empress who was

770
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:58,840
Speaker 1: shooting up tigers and doing her thing, rescuing her husband

771
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 1: and fighting too much a civil battle with her own

772
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:05,600
Speaker 1: stepsons because we're afraid of women. I'm like, oh my god,

773
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:08,239
Speaker 1: where was that at in my growing up? I want

774
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:11,239
Speaker 1: to know about those heroes. Yeah, we you know, you

775
00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 1: can't be what you can't see. How are we supposed

776
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 1: to grow into tiger shooting, elephant writing warrior women. No.

777
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:21,919
Speaker 1: And I will say, as someone who adores tigers a lot,

778
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:25,480
Speaker 1: like I can't even I can't even bring myself to

779
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:29,120
Speaker 1: watch the Tiger King show because it will hurt my

780
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:33,160
Speaker 1: heart too much. But she's only shooting man eating tigers.

781
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:36,839
Speaker 1: She's doing that are killing people. It's not just out

782
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:41,760
Speaker 1: shooting tigers. They send, no, they send for the emperor

783
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:43,799
Speaker 1: to come and rescue them from the tiger who's killed

784
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:46,839
Speaker 1: a hundred people, and then she shoots the tigers. That's

785
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 1: the kind of awesome, badass warrior queen that I can

786
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 1: get behind. Again, it was, So that's a hold of

787
00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:56,279
Speaker 1: the level. We have some more for you listeners, but

788
00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:58,040
Speaker 1: first we have one more quick break for word from

789
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:14,920
Speaker 1: our sponsors, and we're back. Thank you sponsored. Well, I mean,

790
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:18,759
Speaker 1: these stories are not just for like a feminist perspective.

791
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:23,400
Speaker 1: These stories are the live realization of the amazing people

792
00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:27,120
Speaker 1: are and the fact that women are very much ignored

793
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:29,080
Speaker 1: and a race through history, and so we have to

794
00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:32,319
Speaker 1: acknowledge and go beyond and be like, hey, listen to this.

795
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:34,840
Speaker 1: This is a fascinating story about a human being. But

796
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:37,560
Speaker 1: because she's a woman, or because she has a vagina,

797
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:40,600
Speaker 1: people chose to ignore it. But now it's time. This

798
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:42,840
Speaker 1: is just just listen to the good stories if you

799
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:46,760
Speaker 1: want to. Yeah, I mean that you know, amazingly half

800
00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:54,239
Speaker 1: of humanity has done stuff and it's worth talking about. Yeah,

801
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 1: I mean, my my field makes me both very aware

802
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:01,120
Speaker 1: of things and very soon the goal on some level.

803
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:03,759
Speaker 1: Like I'm angry all the time doing these podcasts, Like

804
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:05,759
Speaker 1: some of them are super inspiring, but a lot of

805
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:10,080
Speaker 1: them might end up just furious, furious about these women's

806
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:11,799
Speaker 1: lives or the things they had to endure or the

807
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:14,759
Speaker 1: way they were erased or you know, it's it's it's

808
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:17,359
Speaker 1: frustrating in so I do this, and then I teach

809
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 1: women's studies, and then I was writing a lot of

810
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:21,719
Speaker 1: women study stuff. And finally my husband said, I think

811
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:24,359
Speaker 1: you need a hobby that's not about feminism, because like

812
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:26,880
Speaker 1: I just it was aiding me alive, and I thought,

813
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 1: you were right. I need something else that is just fun. Right,

814
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:34,680
Speaker 1: that's just positive all the time, but it also makes

815
00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:37,880
Speaker 1: me unsurprised by things. So like I have the platonic

816
00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:41,719
Speaker 1: ideal of a supportive husband. He is the best there

817
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:47,359
Speaker 1: if you could not improve as a person, my husband, um,

818
00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:51,120
Speaker 1: and so he is super helpful and supportive and and

819
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:55,319
Speaker 1: great on all this stuff, and he is consistently surprised

820
00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:58,080
Speaker 1: by how few men listen to our podcast. You know,

821
00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:02,040
Speaker 1: we have pretty clear demographics. And when when the demographics

822
00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:04,080
Speaker 1: came through the first time, he came in just furious

823
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:06,360
Speaker 1: and he said, do you how many men? What? What

824
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:08,440
Speaker 1: percentage of your listeners do you think our men? And

825
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 1: I said, uh three, and he looked at me startled,

826
00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:14,239
Speaker 1: and he said, how did how did you know? How

827
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:16,920
Speaker 1: do you do why? And he just was so angry.

828
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:20,440
Speaker 1: He was like incandescen with anger that men aren't listening.

829
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:24,000
Speaker 1: He's like, why are men so terrible? Why aren't they

830
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:27,520
Speaker 1: listening to this? Don't they understand that this is just history.

831
00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:29,880
Speaker 1: Women's history is not a niche subject. And he like

832
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:32,399
Speaker 1: ranted for a long time, and it was very good

833
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:36,080
Speaker 1: for my soul to see my husband just so angry

834
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:39,279
Speaker 1: that other men just blow this stuff off. You know

835
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:43,799
Speaker 1: that it's not a podcast for women just because it's

836
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:48,279
Speaker 1: about women, right, you can listen to it boys, exactly.

837
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:50,520
Speaker 1: And I love that. So tell your husband he gets

838
00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:54,080
Speaker 1: an A plus from us, okay, and we are very

839
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:58,319
Speaker 1: much approving that those are very bad. He's like out there, yeah,

840
00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:01,040
Speaker 1: I mean he's out there pushing and challenging people like,

841
00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:03,719
Speaker 1: oh you listen to history podcasts. Do you listen to

842
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:09,200
Speaker 1: any women's history and they're like like, here's a list

843
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:13,239
Speaker 1: of options for you. But and it's frustrating, right, it is,

844
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:16,480
Speaker 1: just it keeps repeating, generation after generation, your trains to

845
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:19,279
Speaker 1: believe that women aren't interesting and didn't do anything. And

846
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:21,920
Speaker 1: even if we do the what we think is progressive

847
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:24,800
Speaker 1: version of it's not women's fault. They didn't do anything.

848
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:28,080
Speaker 1: They just weren't allowed to. Women weren't allowed to write,

849
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:32,400
Speaker 1: and so they didn't write anything good. It's not their fault. Rubbish.

850
00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 1: There's so much good stuff that's been thrown out and

851
00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:38,960
Speaker 1: this objective standard of only white men are good writers.

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00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:44,000
Speaker 1: Oh interesting, who decided? Oh white man? Right, who's the

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00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:48,719
Speaker 1: one that's the judges? And this moment there's so much

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00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:51,760
Speaker 1: good stuff, you know when you watch I'm a huge

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00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:54,480
Speaker 1: fan of The Good Place, the TV show, because there

856
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:56,680
Speaker 1: are so many jokes in that show we've never heard

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00:51:56,719 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 1: before in our lives. Right, we've heard every joke on sitcoms.

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00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:02,040
Speaker 1: You always know where the joke is going, even when

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00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:04,200
Speaker 1: they're funny. You're like, oh yeah, all right there, and

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00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:06,160
Speaker 1: we don't never know where the jokes are going there

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00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:09,080
Speaker 1: because they're written by people who have never written for television.

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00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:13,480
Speaker 1: We've never let them right before, and it's great. It's

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00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:16,200
Speaker 1: not about diversity because we need to check the boxes,

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00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:21,399
Speaker 1: because it's better to have more people talking. There are

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00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:28,040
Speaker 1: new stuff you've never heard before. We love that. Well, Olivia,

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00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:30,600
Speaker 1: you are amazing and obviously going to be one of

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Speaker 1: our best friends. Yeah, because we're going to collaborate again.

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Speaker 1: I have a feeling that's the dream. Yes, and of

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00:52:38,239 --> 00:52:42,359
Speaker 1: course let your system know. She is always welcome as well. Yeah,

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00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:47,800
Speaker 1: hopefully she's a she's quarantined with small children, quarantine with teenagers,

871
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:52,359
Speaker 1: so mine are happy to ignore me and hers are.

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00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:56,480
Speaker 1: I'm going to say those women and the mothers with

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00:52:56,840 --> 00:53:00,239
Speaker 1: tiny children children at all during quarantine times are rock

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00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:03,920
Speaker 1: stars and heroes, because I'm annoyed with my dogs sometimes

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00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:09,160
Speaker 1: and I could just tell her to be quiet. Can

876
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:13,960
Speaker 1: you tell our listeners where to find you? Yes, we're everywhere.

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00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:17,000
Speaker 1: We're everywhere that there are podcasts is what's your Name?

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00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:19,719
Speaker 1: All one word with the apostrophe. Some of them are

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00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:23,160
Speaker 1: very picky about getting that apostrophe in there, or just

880
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:25,359
Speaker 1: google us. We're also at what's your Name podcast dot

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00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:28,319
Speaker 1: com and from there there's links to all the main platforms,

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00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:32,640
Speaker 1: and we're also on Spotify and YouTube. Our website has

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00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:34,680
Speaker 1: tons of pictures and we always try to have pictures

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00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:36,920
Speaker 1: and links and more information about all our subjects and

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00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:40,520
Speaker 1: our guests who are amazing. That brings us to the

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00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:43,600
Speaker 1: end of that wonderful interview with Olivia. Definitely go check

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00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:46,040
Speaker 1: out their podcast. Um if you want to learn more

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00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:50,680
Speaker 1: about these two women, are so many other women, and

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00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:53,440
Speaker 1: if you would like to email us about women we

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00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:56,239
Speaker 1: should be talking about, our other podcasts we should be

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00:53:56,239 --> 00:53:59,080
Speaker 1: collaborating with. You can Our email is Stuff Media mom

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00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:01,279
Speaker 1: Stuff at i heeart meatia dot com. You can also

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00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:03,759
Speaker 1: find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast and on

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00:54:03,840 --> 00:54:06,080
Speaker 1: Instagram at Stuff Whom I've Never Told You. Thanks as

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00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:09,720
Speaker 1: always to our super producer producing from Afar, Andrew Howard,

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00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:13,120
Speaker 1: and thanks to you for listening Stuff I've Never Told You.

897
00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:15,360
Speaker 1: Protection of I Heart Radio. For more podcast from I

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00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:17,840
Speaker 1: Heart Radio is the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast,

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00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:19,600
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.