1
00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:02,960
Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray.

2
00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:10,000
Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you welcome to stuff mom never told you?

3
00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:17,440
Speaker 1: From House to works dot Com. Hey there, and welcome

4
00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:20,680
Speaker 1: to the podcast. I'm Kristen, I'm Molly so well. My

5
00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:23,520
Speaker 1: sex addiction has been in the news a lot lately,

6
00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:27,280
Speaker 1: Oh boy has it? And to be honest, we positioned

7
00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:30,920
Speaker 1: this podcast so hopefully published around the time of the

8
00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:36,120
Speaker 1: Master's Golf Tournament because Tiger Woods is making his comeback. Yes,

9
00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:38,120
Speaker 1: and if there are any words that have been associated

10
00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:42,839
Speaker 1: with Tiger Woods lately, sex addiction. Yes. And that has

11
00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:45,240
Speaker 1: led to a lot of online discussion about whether sex

12
00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:47,319
Speaker 1: addiction is a real thing or if it's just an

13
00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:50,080
Speaker 1: excuse that a cheating husband like Tiger can use for

14
00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:53,520
Speaker 1: having a lot of mistresses. Um, I would I would

15
00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:55,160
Speaker 1: love to meet a woman who hasn't been a mistress

16
00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:58,960
Speaker 1: of Tiger Woods, because it seems like everyone has. Hello jolly, Yeah,

17
00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:03,080
Speaker 1: the mistresses of Tiger Woods are getting fired too much attention.

18
00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:05,840
Speaker 1: But anyway, is it real? Is it a thing? That's

19
00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:07,720
Speaker 1: what we decided to find out. Yeah, because it first

20
00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:11,399
Speaker 1: really popped up into pop culture in two thousand and eight,

21
00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:16,560
Speaker 1: when David D. Kovney checked himself into rehab for sex addiction.

22
00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:19,119
Speaker 1: I started to wonder if it would be the new exhaustion.

23
00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:20,840
Speaker 1: You know how celebrities are always saying that they had

24
00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:22,760
Speaker 1: to go to rehab for exhaustion. I wondered if it

25
00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:25,679
Speaker 1: would become the new new Uh, well, it seems like

26
00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:28,200
Speaker 1: it all of a sudden, everybody's talking about sex addiction.

27
00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:29,920
Speaker 1: So let's get to the bottom of that. What are

28
00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:32,480
Speaker 1: they talking about when they say that sex addiction? According

29
00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:37,240
Speaker 1: to psych Central, is best described as a progressive intimacy

30
00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:41,520
Speaker 1: disorder characterized by compulsive sexual thoughts and acts. Now, the

31
00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:44,959
Speaker 1: National Council on Sexual Addiction and Compulsivity has defined sex

32
00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:48,680
Speaker 1: addiction is quote engaging in persistent and escalating patterns of

33
00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:54,360
Speaker 1: sexual behavior acted out despite increasing negative consequences to self

34
00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:57,720
Speaker 1: and others. So it's basically having an acting on sexual

35
00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:00,200
Speaker 1: urges to the point that it disrupts your life. It's

36
00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:02,400
Speaker 1: not people who just necessarily like sex and have a

37
00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:05,400
Speaker 1: lot of it. There has to be some element of

38
00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:08,000
Speaker 1: it ruining your life in some way. Probably is affecting

39
00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:11,560
Speaker 1: your job, affecting your other relationships, etcetera. And it's not

40
00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:13,920
Speaker 1: necessarily just having sex with another person. It can also

41
00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:17,120
Speaker 1: be an addiction to porn, masturbating excessively to the point

42
00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:19,360
Speaker 1: where you know you may not go to work because

43
00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:21,880
Speaker 1: you need to stay home and be have some alone time.

44
00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:25,440
Speaker 1: And it might not even have anything to do with

45
00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:31,160
Speaker 1: deriving sexual pleasure, because CNN points out that a lot

46
00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:35,720
Speaker 1: of people who are sex addicts don't even like the

47
00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:39,040
Speaker 1: process of sex itself. They're just using it to numb

48
00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:43,280
Speaker 1: out painful feelings or kill time or just stop feeling lonely. Yes,

49
00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:45,840
Speaker 1: it's it's It can be an addiction in the same

50
00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:47,920
Speaker 1: way that drain hans and addiction, where you just have

51
00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:49,840
Speaker 1: to do it. It's not even because you're driving any

52
00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:53,400
Speaker 1: pleasure from it anymore. It's just an impulse you cannot stop.

53
00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:56,239
Speaker 1: And according to the Mayo Clinic, it affects three to

54
00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:59,920
Speaker 1: six percent of adults in the United States and supposedly

55
00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:03,760
Speaker 1: sex addiction has been also on the rise in the

56
00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:08,600
Speaker 1: past ten years or so because of the Internet. Basically

57
00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:12,960
Speaker 1: we have more access to sex than ever before, and

58
00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:17,679
Speaker 1: therefore people are just feeding it more and more on

59
00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:20,560
Speaker 1: the Internet. Now it is not listed, I think that

60
00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:23,800
Speaker 1: we should note it is not in the Diagnostic and

61
00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:27,679
Speaker 1: Statistical Manual of Psychiatric Disorders, which is the a p

62
00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:31,120
Speaker 1: a s. Handbook that we've talked about before in our

63
00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:36,000
Speaker 1: podcast on eating disorders. It is not listed as a

64
00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:41,480
Speaker 1: specific clinical disorder. It is just listed under sexual disorders

65
00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:44,680
Speaker 1: not otherwise specified. Right, And I do want to draw

66
00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:48,680
Speaker 1: again this distinction between sex for pleasure and sex drives

67
00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:51,560
Speaker 1: that you can't control, because when the term is used

68
00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:54,240
Speaker 1: for tiger Woods, I think it's a little bit misleading

69
00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:56,800
Speaker 1: because we just don't know. I mean, it feels like

70
00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:58,160
Speaker 1: we know because he's in the paper every day, but

71
00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:00,600
Speaker 1: wishing to remind ourselves that we don't know the guy,

72
00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:02,440
Speaker 1: and we don't know if this was something that he

73
00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:04,640
Speaker 1: couldn't control or if it was just a lot of affairs.

74
00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,280
Speaker 1: Having a lot of affairs does not necessarily mean you

75
00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:09,920
Speaker 1: are a sex addict. It could just mean that you

76
00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:13,040
Speaker 1: were having a lot of affairs. Yeah, And so that's

77
00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:15,440
Speaker 1: leads some lad some people to question, I mean, is

78
00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:20,080
Speaker 1: this an actual neurological disorder where he could not stop

79
00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:22,280
Speaker 1: himself from doing anything? Or were we just giving a

80
00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:25,280
Speaker 1: cheating man a pass. So let's go into how you

81
00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:29,000
Speaker 1: might decide if you're at risk for this condition. Now,

82
00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:32,120
Speaker 1: sex Addicts Anonymous has a self assessment tests you can take.

83
00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:35,680
Speaker 1: These are twelve questions, and if you answer yes to

84
00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:39,520
Speaker 1: more than one of these questions, you might be a

85
00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:41,120
Speaker 1: sex addict. Don you want to read it for you

86
00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:44,560
Speaker 1: all right? Do you keep secrets about your sexual behavior

87
00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:47,719
Speaker 1: or romantic fantasies from those important to you? And do

88
00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:51,000
Speaker 1: you lead a double life? Have your sexual practices cause

89
00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:55,000
Speaker 1: you legal problems? Could your sexual practices cause you legal problems?

90
00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:59,360
Speaker 1: Do your sexual activities involve coercion, violence, or threat of disease?

91
00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:03,800
Speaker 1: Does your preoccupation with sexual fantasies caused problems in any

92
00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:06,320
Speaker 1: area of your life even when you do not act

93
00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:10,320
Speaker 1: out on those fantasies? Have a few more? Have your

94
00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:12,640
Speaker 1: desires driven you to have sex and places or with

95
00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:16,200
Speaker 1: people you would not normally choose? Do you need greater variety,

96
00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:19,320
Speaker 1: increased frequency, or more extreme sexual activities to achieve the

97
00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:24,360
Speaker 1: same level of excitement or relief? Do you frequently want

98
00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:26,520
Speaker 1: to get away from a partner after having sex? Do

99
00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:29,599
Speaker 1: you feel remorse, shame, or guilt after a sexual encounter?

100
00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:32,920
Speaker 1: And does your pursuit of sex or sexual fantasy conflict

101
00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:35,000
Speaker 1: with your moral standards or I fear with your personal

102
00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:40,600
Speaker 1: spiritual journey. So these questions can also be troubling for

103
00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:45,240
Speaker 1: people who wonder whether or not sex addiction is real

104
00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:49,880
Speaker 1: and valid, because they would say that for plenty of people,

105
00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:56,800
Speaker 1: they have hidden fantasies that might not be necessarily socially acceptable.

106
00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:00,960
Speaker 1: It might not be vanilla missionary style, but it's just

107
00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:05,640
Speaker 1: something they want. Yeah. Sex columnists Dan Savage had a

108
00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:08,080
Speaker 1: really good point in a Slate piece you sent me

109
00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:11,880
Speaker 1: about whether we are just demonizing all sex that doesn't

110
00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:15,040
Speaker 1: fit cultural norms that we think it should. Essentially, if

111
00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:18,000
Speaker 1: you're not you know, married and having you know, as

112
00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:21,600
Speaker 1: Kristen put it, very vanilla plain sex, if you're doing

113
00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:26,080
Speaker 1: anything that's outside of a cultural norm stereotype, then yes,

114
00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:28,200
Speaker 1: you must be a deviant and thus you must be

115
00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:33,159
Speaker 1: a sex addict. Because let's say, Molly, someone has bondage fantasies, okay,

116
00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:37,400
Speaker 1: outside of the social norm if you will, um, and

117
00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:41,679
Speaker 1: probably something that they might not share with their partner.

118
00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:44,760
Speaker 1: Does that necessarily mean they're a sex addict or that

119
00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:48,000
Speaker 1: they just like to get be tied up? You know?

120
00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:51,120
Speaker 1: I mean, is that is one? Is that wrong that

121
00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:53,839
Speaker 1: they have those kind of fantasies. Right. So, I think that,

122
00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:57,000
Speaker 1: you know, a troubling thing within this diagnosis right now

123
00:06:57,080 --> 00:07:00,360
Speaker 1: is it does seem to demonize some forms of sex

124
00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:03,120
Speaker 1: that aren't necessarily addictive behaviors. And I think that that's

125
00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,840
Speaker 1: why the Tiger Woods Association again kind of rubs all

126
00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:08,839
Speaker 1: the wrong way, because we don't know, if you know,

127
00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:10,400
Speaker 1: this is a guy who just wanted to have a

128
00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:12,160
Speaker 1: lot of sex, or if they had, you know, just

129
00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:15,800
Speaker 1: the drive that was consuming his life. So to maybe

130
00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:18,640
Speaker 1: enlighten us a little bit about this whole situation, we

131
00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:22,560
Speaker 1: should look to someone who has been through rehab for

132
00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:27,160
Speaker 1: sex addiction. Uh, there's a sky named annoint dennisit Lewis

133
00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:31,440
Speaker 1: who wrote a piece for the New York Times Modern

134
00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:37,000
Speaker 1: Love column in which he shares his past problems with

135
00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:39,960
Speaker 1: sex addiction. Right. He opens with the story when he's

136
00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:42,960
Speaker 1: twenty four years old and he has driven three hours

137
00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:45,280
Speaker 1: away from his home. He has skipped one of his

138
00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:48,200
Speaker 1: close friend's weddings because he is trying to hook up

139
00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:51,160
Speaker 1: and honestly with two guys came in off the internet. Um,

140
00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:53,200
Speaker 1: one of the guys doesn't show, so he goes with

141
00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:56,040
Speaker 1: the backup plan and he just speaks of you know

142
00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:58,840
Speaker 1: how that was kind of a turning point where he

143
00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:01,960
Speaker 1: he's three hours home, he'd had sex with this guy

144
00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:04,680
Speaker 1: he didn't know had a boyfriend. He was upset because

145
00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:06,440
Speaker 1: the other guy didn't show any realized that something was

146
00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:09,400
Speaker 1: wrong with this picture that you know, he was essentially

147
00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:13,080
Speaker 1: discussed with himself for letting this overtake his life. Um

148
00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:15,520
Speaker 1: And he says, I suspect that my addiction is a

149
00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:18,920
Speaker 1: misguided attempt to find the acceptance and unconditional love that

150
00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:21,360
Speaker 1: I didn't feel growing up. And that's often a theme

151
00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:24,720
Speaker 1: that we'll see with UM. With sex addiction diagnoses as well,

152
00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:27,760
Speaker 1: there's usually some kind of childhood trauma. It goes back

153
00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:32,000
Speaker 1: to or sexual abuse or parental neglect, so we see

154
00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:34,720
Speaker 1: that same theme coming up and um And he talks

155
00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:37,320
Speaker 1: about UM. If you ask alcoholics about the first time

156
00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:39,280
Speaker 1: they became drunk man, he will say it was the

157
00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:41,520
Speaker 1: moment that they finally felt okay in the world. I

158
00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:44,200
Speaker 1: never had that sensation while drunker stone, but I did

159
00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:46,480
Speaker 1: feel it for the first time when I entered a

160
00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:49,320
Speaker 1: gay man's gay men's chat room while in college and

161
00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:52,160
Speaker 1: a kind of hypnotic trance. I sent out photos of

162
00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:56,000
Speaker 1: myself to Rave reviews, and then everything starts to snowball.

163
00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:58,280
Speaker 1: He says, within three months, I had hooked up with

164
00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:01,280
Speaker 1: twenty guys online. With the six months I was skipping

165
00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:03,640
Speaker 1: out on friends that I could spend nights in chat rooms.

166
00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:06,560
Speaker 1: I mean, this really sounds like addicted behavior. It was

167
00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:10,280
Speaker 1: overtaking his life. He was alienating himself from friends and

168
00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:15,719
Speaker 1: family so that he could basically have cyber sex with strangers. Right.

169
00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:17,400
Speaker 1: And when he said that that was the first time

170
00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:20,120
Speaker 1: he felt, you know, like a normal person. That made

171
00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:22,320
Speaker 1: a lot of sense. And then he said, how you

172
00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:25,160
Speaker 1: know how ephemeral that feeling was, how he just had

173
00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:27,080
Speaker 1: to keep seeking it out, and how it was, you know,

174
00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:30,560
Speaker 1: it just never came back the way it it did,

175
00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:33,640
Speaker 1: but it was this constant search to reclaim that UM.

176
00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:36,120
Speaker 1: Then he writes about how he did give treatment a chance,

177
00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:38,640
Speaker 1: and this this will bring us into sort of the

178
00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:41,000
Speaker 1: the controversy about how you treat something that you're not

179
00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:43,600
Speaker 1: even sure as an addiction. UM. He writes about how

180
00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:45,920
Speaker 1: he went to one center where the men would write

181
00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:49,280
Speaker 1: empathy letters, where they would you know, try to identify

182
00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:51,400
Speaker 1: all the hurt that they had caused their wives because

183
00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:54,440
Speaker 1: you know many of these people are married, um, and hey,

184
00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:59,400
Speaker 1: you're doing real damage to friends, spouses, domestic partners and

185
00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:01,800
Speaker 1: you know of wives. Meanwhile, would send the men these

186
00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:05,400
Speaker 1: cost letters that detailed, you know and in very sad detail,

187
00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:07,880
Speaker 1: all the all the things that you know have been

188
00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:11,080
Speaker 1: broken or hurt. And that was one way they did

189
00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:14,520
Speaker 1: did treatment. They also did a lot of journaling and

190
00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:17,199
Speaker 1: one uh excerpt he included in this article was something

191
00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:18,960
Speaker 1: he wrote in his journal where he was trying to

192
00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:23,400
Speaker 1: give voice to this this compulsion to keep having anonymous sex.

193
00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:26,800
Speaker 1: He wrote, I will write in the voice of he wrote,

194
00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:30,600
Speaker 1: in the voice of his addiction. I will make annoit, lie,

195
00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:32,880
Speaker 1: and manipulate and chase sex every of the day until

196
00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:35,439
Speaker 1: he can't feel anything anymore, until everything good and decent

197
00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:37,880
Speaker 1: about him is removed. He needs me, his life is

198
00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:40,040
Speaker 1: boring when I'm not in charge. I control him. I

199
00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:42,199
Speaker 1: keep him numb so he can function and make him

200
00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:44,559
Speaker 1: feel good, and I make him feel worthless. The minute

201
00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:46,760
Speaker 1: he steps out of the stupid rehab, I'll start whispering

202
00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:49,120
Speaker 1: in his ear. That's all it takes. Whispers. I win.

203
00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:52,960
Speaker 1: I always win. So when you hear about sex addiction

204
00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:57,679
Speaker 1: from this perspective. From his first person perspective, it definitely

205
00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:03,080
Speaker 1: sounds like a very serious issue, like a valid mental disorder.

206
00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:06,880
Speaker 1: And there is a guy named Martin Kafka who is

207
00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:09,679
Speaker 1: sort of the expert on sex addiction and treatment, I

208
00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:13,320
Speaker 1: would say in the US, who um studies this at

209
00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:16,600
Speaker 1: McLean Hospital in Belmont, Massachusetts. And we found a New

210
00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:22,800
Speaker 1: York Times magazine piece profiling Kaka and his UH and

211
00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:26,040
Speaker 1: basically this whole issue of what is sex addiction and

212
00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:28,439
Speaker 1: sort of does it reside in the brain, what is

213
00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:32,280
Speaker 1: it related to? And it's interesting, he said. One of

214
00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:36,240
Speaker 1: his biggest breakthroughs was when he noticed a similarity between

215
00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:39,880
Speaker 1: UM these sex addicts. They were all men who he

216
00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:45,800
Speaker 1: was treating and women with eating disorders. UM basically the

217
00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:52,040
Speaker 1: fact that they both involved the difficulties experiencing UM satisfaction

218
00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:56,360
Speaker 1: as well as a general disregulation for these appetite drives

219
00:11:56,400 --> 00:12:01,400
Speaker 1: something completely uncontrollable and outside of their power. And he

220
00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:05,760
Speaker 1: thinks that it might have something to do with serotonin

221
00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:09,360
Speaker 1: levels in the brain. UH. The article references in nineteen

222
00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:13,000
Speaker 1: sixty nine study published in Science in that found that

223
00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:17,040
Speaker 1: in rats, when their serotonin levels drop in the brain,

224
00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:22,439
Speaker 1: their arousal goes up, and there's also this inverse relationship

225
00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:28,280
Speaker 1: between dopamine and serotonin. There was another study on male bears, actually,

226
00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:30,800
Speaker 1: of all thinks, seems like male bears to be hard

227
00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:34,800
Speaker 1: to study, uh, that found that before they made it,

228
00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:38,120
Speaker 1: their dopamine levels would shoot up and the serotonin levels

229
00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:42,000
Speaker 1: would go down, and hence their libidos would their bare

230
00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:45,760
Speaker 1: libidos would go up. And then after they made it,

231
00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:49,480
Speaker 1: the opposite occurs. The serotonin rises, the dopamine falls. So

232
00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:53,000
Speaker 1: they think that it might have something to do with these, uh,

233
00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:56,680
Speaker 1: these levels of brain chemicals. Right, So if you know

234
00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:59,680
Speaker 1: that there's something about the seratonin you can address, you

235
00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:02,120
Speaker 1: might think that that lends itself to an easy treatment.

236
00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:07,080
Speaker 1: We have selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors like prozac, and Dr

237
00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:09,160
Speaker 1: kof has put a few men on prozac and has

238
00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:11,959
Speaker 1: actually found that, uh, it certains almost as like a

239
00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:15,120
Speaker 1: chemical castration. They kept referring at too, because you totally

240
00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:18,199
Speaker 1: lose libido. They get rid of their sex addiction by

241
00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:21,520
Speaker 1: losing their sex, by losing their sex driv and for

242
00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:24,559
Speaker 1: some of these men that's actually huge relief. Yeah, they're

243
00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:27,680
Speaker 1: fine with that. Dr Kafa is hoping that he can

244
00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:31,920
Speaker 1: treat the sex addiction without affecting sex arousal or desire,

245
00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:35,960
Speaker 1: because it is healthy to have a sexual desire. That's

246
00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:39,520
Speaker 1: essential to repopulating the species. UM. So he's hoping that

247
00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:41,280
Speaker 1: one day he can figure out enough about the brain

248
00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:43,400
Speaker 1: to where he could give a man a drug you

249
00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:45,800
Speaker 1: know that's not prozac and just doesn't completely kill the

250
00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:49,360
Speaker 1: labto And he has a lot of interesting theories that maybe, um,

251
00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:52,160
Speaker 1: the part of our brain that controls the deviant behaviors

252
00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:55,280
Speaker 1: is different than the one that just controls normal sexual behaviors.

253
00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:58,600
Speaker 1: And I was surprised to learn too from Kafka's research

254
00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:03,480
Speaker 1: is that there's still not entirely sure how sexual arousal

255
00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:06,920
Speaker 1: works in the brain. They haven't exactly been able to

256
00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:10,920
Speaker 1: pinpoint every single location the exact functioning of it, and

257
00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:13,440
Speaker 1: so they really can't go in and say, well, this

258
00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:17,440
Speaker 1: guy has an enlarged hypothalamus, therefore, you know he has

259
00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:21,760
Speaker 1: an enlarge libido. You know, they can't exactly map out

260
00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:25,040
Speaker 1: the neurology of arousal. So it's still a big question,

261
00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:29,120
Speaker 1: which has lead to I guess other treatments they have

262
00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:32,560
Speaker 1: to rely on that might not be as precise um

263
00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:36,440
Speaker 1: to address this issue of sex addiction, because in a way,

264
00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:40,680
Speaker 1: you could draw a very loose comparison between sex addiction

265
00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:44,680
Speaker 1: and eating disorders. For instance, with an eating disorder, obviously

266
00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:48,360
Speaker 1: the food is the issue at the heart of the matter,

267
00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:51,120
Speaker 1: but you don't want to eliminate the food. You can't

268
00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:54,240
Speaker 1: eliminate the food, and you also don't want to demonize

269
00:14:54,760 --> 00:15:00,560
Speaker 1: eating because, like sex, food is necessary for human functioning, right.

270
00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:02,200
Speaker 1: I mean, it's the kind of thing where you know,

271
00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:05,520
Speaker 1: if you're treating an alcohol addiction, the goal is no alcohol,

272
00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:08,680
Speaker 1: but that's not the approach that people are taking a

273
00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:12,400
Speaker 1: treating sex addiction. Uh. In some clinics, they'll have people

274
00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:15,880
Speaker 1: make a list of what the what the bad behaviors are,

275
00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:17,720
Speaker 1: and they're just not allowed to do those. So if

276
00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:22,000
Speaker 1: your problem was, let's say, um, masturbating every morning, if

277
00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:23,960
Speaker 1: you did that, then that would be yes of fall

278
00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:26,440
Speaker 1: back into your sex addiction, Whereas having sex with a

279
00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:29,800
Speaker 1: spouse would not be a sign of the sex addiction

280
00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:32,280
Speaker 1: manifesting itself. Having sex with ten women in addition to

281
00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:34,240
Speaker 1: your wife, that might be a sign of it. It's

282
00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:37,280
Speaker 1: all about finding for that person what um the middle

283
00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:40,240
Speaker 1: ground is now other doctors you know, are taking maybe

284
00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:44,640
Speaker 1: a more aggressive approach and reconditioning men to disassociate pleasure

285
00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:47,760
Speaker 1: from the behaviors that used to bring them pleasure. So

286
00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:50,360
Speaker 1: there are a wide variety of treatments in how people

287
00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:53,520
Speaker 1: are trying to approach this, not really knowing exactly how

288
00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:55,640
Speaker 1: it comes to be normally. I don't know if you've

289
00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:59,520
Speaker 1: noticed this or not, but we keep using men as

290
00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:04,800
Speaker 1: example with sex addiction, and statistically men are the ones

291
00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:09,360
Speaker 1: who have a bigger problem with sex addiction, but women

292
00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:12,160
Speaker 1: are can be sex addics too, true, And I think

293
00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:14,480
Speaker 1: that this is one of those places where, um, there's

294
00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:17,120
Speaker 1: an uncomfortable double standard for me, because we were talking

295
00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:20,200
Speaker 1: about how, um, we've used sex addiction in some cases

296
00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:23,920
Speaker 1: to demonize certain kinds of sex. But I also think

297
00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:27,000
Speaker 1: that we might throw the term too easily at a

298
00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:30,320
Speaker 1: woman just because she has a lot of sex. Yeah.

299
00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:34,920
Speaker 1: And and there's also a distinction between the how sex

300
00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:38,360
Speaker 1: addiction works for men and sex addiction works for women

301
00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,680
Speaker 1: because according to a Society for the Advancement of Sexual Health,

302
00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:44,880
Speaker 1: a lot of times they will refer to a woman's

303
00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:47,920
Speaker 1: sex addiction as merely love addiction. It always comes back

304
00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:51,720
Speaker 1: to a woman's need for intimacy and closeness. These women,

305
00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:56,120
Speaker 1: you know, aren't actually you know, needing the climax or

306
00:16:56,400 --> 00:17:00,840
Speaker 1: the shot of dopamine from uh, from having sex with someone.

307
00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:03,720
Speaker 1: They really just want to lie tenderly in someone's arms

308
00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:07,640
Speaker 1: and feel close to someone for if only a fleeting moment. Right,

309
00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:11,240
Speaker 1: Women couldn't possibly like sex porting to this and it's

310
00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:13,560
Speaker 1: depiction of it. Yeah, and and it does come up

311
00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:17,040
Speaker 1: again and again. And even even Susan Chiever, who recently

312
00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:19,639
Speaker 1: wrote a book about her own sex addiction problem, kind

313
00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:22,240
Speaker 1: of perpetuates this. And an article we found in The

314
00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:26,720
Speaker 1: Times Online where she was saying that she thinks that

315
00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:30,000
Speaker 1: her sex addiction came from her parents never telling her

316
00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:33,040
Speaker 1: that she was pretty and feeling unsupported by them and

317
00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:35,880
Speaker 1: how you know, it really was just this quiet quest

318
00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:37,960
Speaker 1: for love. And we see that theme over and over

319
00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:41,159
Speaker 1: again where it's just kind of this um, I guess,

320
00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:43,600
Speaker 1: sort of a mating drive for women, whereas with men

321
00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:47,440
Speaker 1: it's just this more primitive urge to just spread their

322
00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:50,760
Speaker 1: seed and leave. Yeah, I mean, I guess Another reason

323
00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:52,880
Speaker 1: I find the term uncomfortable is that it just really

324
00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:56,240
Speaker 1: does tie up a lot of societal conceptions about men

325
00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:58,240
Speaker 1: and women and sex, which is already just I think,

326
00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:02,600
Speaker 1: a battleground of stereotypes and myths. But I will say

327
00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:04,720
Speaker 1: what was interesting to me is that women do seem

328
00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:06,560
Speaker 1: to also have a co addiction. When they have a

329
00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:09,960
Speaker 1: sex addiction, they might also be um suffering with addiction,

330
00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:13,520
Speaker 1: addiction to alcohol, and eating disorders. Some sort of impulse

331
00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:16,080
Speaker 1: control problem could possibly be the thing that kind of

332
00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:20,119
Speaker 1: triggers this constant need for sexual gratification. Yeah, and I

333
00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:23,400
Speaker 1: guess kind of compounding all of those disorders together would

334
00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:25,960
Speaker 1: also leads you to question to like, well, are these

335
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:30,680
Speaker 1: just all symptoms of a different disease altogether. So again

336
00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:33,720
Speaker 1: and again, Molly, throughout this conversation, we keep coming back

337
00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:38,159
Speaker 1: to this gray area of on the one hand, we

338
00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:43,960
Speaker 1: have coughcus patients who obviously have a problem with sex addiction.

339
00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:46,920
Speaker 1: Genuinely there seems to be something going on in their

340
00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:49,760
Speaker 1: brains that's driving them to this. And then on the

341
00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:53,159
Speaker 1: other hand, we do have this, uh, you know, the

342
00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:57,360
Speaker 1: sort of the Tiger Woods question of just cheating men,

343
00:18:57,640 --> 00:18:59,960
Speaker 1: isn't it is a pop psychology chterm. Do we see

344
00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:03,360
Speaker 1: a man who cheats repeatedly and think oh, sex addict. Right?

345
00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:08,439
Speaker 1: Are we just demonizing someone's maybe elevated libido right and

346
00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:11,600
Speaker 1: search for maybe I don't know, maybe kinkie or sex too.

347
00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:16,159
Speaker 1: That would make us uncomfortable, right, that's the question. We

348
00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:18,439
Speaker 1: can't answer it, so we turn as always to our

349
00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:22,160
Speaker 1: faithful listeners. Let us know your thoughts on sex addiction,

350
00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:24,919
Speaker 1: if it's real, if it's not what you think about it.

351
00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:28,080
Speaker 1: The email is mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com,

352
00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:30,320
Speaker 1: and we shall finish with a few emails from that

353
00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:36,919
Speaker 1: email address. UH one is from Mary, who we have

354
00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,840
Speaker 1: to give major props to you because she counted all

355
00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:43,920
Speaker 1: the times we said poop in our poop podcast, which

356
00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:46,399
Speaker 1: was called What's the Scoop on Lady Poop? Now. You

357
00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:48,680
Speaker 1: might remember, Kristen that at the end you said something

358
00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:51,679
Speaker 1: like we've probably said poop sixty five times, and I said, no,

359
00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:56,640
Speaker 1: it's more than that, and I was right. I didn't

360
00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:58,560
Speaker 1: want to say it. You manage to say the word

361
00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:02,159
Speaker 1: poop or poops, pooped, pooping, etcetera seventy three times in

362
00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:05,040
Speaker 1: a twenty two minute episode. That's an average of three

363
00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:08,400
Speaker 1: poops a minute. Thank you Mary for counting. You are

364
00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:10,719
Speaker 1: truly a saint. For doing that. You know what, I

365
00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:13,800
Speaker 1: bet that we topped the poop record with sex in

366
00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:17,119
Speaker 1: this episode. True. There's always a weirds Baldo word in

367
00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:20,800
Speaker 1: our podcast. Yes, speaking of poop, got another one here

368
00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:25,280
Speaker 1: from Kim. She said, just listen to your podcast on

369
00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:27,000
Speaker 1: girl poop, and I gotta say I loved it. In

370
00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:29,920
Speaker 1: the words of Frank Reynolds on It's always stunny in Philadelphia,

371
00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:33,440
Speaker 1: poop is funny. Thank you for that reference. You gotta

372
00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:35,960
Speaker 1: love Frank. I totally got you when you were talking

373
00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:38,639
Speaker 1: about the waiting game. But some of my girlfriends and

374
00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,040
Speaker 1: I go the opposite way in the right circumstance. We

375
00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,920
Speaker 1: nicknamed it the group Poop. It started a few years

376
00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:46,720
Speaker 1: ago when we were at a restaurant on a road trip.

377
00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:49,239
Speaker 1: There were four of us and we took up all

378
00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:52,240
Speaker 1: four stalls at once. One of us just to new

379
00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:54,200
Speaker 1: she was going to go for it, and after that

380
00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:57,040
Speaker 1: we just saw went for it and by it, she's

381
00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:00,840
Speaker 1: meaning poop. Ended up being a rather fun bonding experience,

382
00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:04,200
Speaker 1: laughing about farting and splashing and everything. We still joke

383
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:08,919
Speaker 1: about it and do it again when the right situation arises. Um.

384
00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:11,000
Speaker 1: Thank you Kim for the anecdote. But I'm gonna say

385
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:12,760
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be on high alert next time I see

386
00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:14,480
Speaker 1: a group of four women walking to the bathroom the

387
00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,000
Speaker 1: same time giggling, because it might be a group poop.

388
00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:19,800
Speaker 1: All right, If you don't want a group poop, Christen,

389
00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:23,000
Speaker 1: then I've got an email from page that may help you. Um.

390
00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,280
Speaker 1: She writes about a tip for the bathroom showdown. Ideally,

391
00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:28,000
Speaker 1: you want to wait to hold it until the other

392
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:30,719
Speaker 1: person flushes their toilet. That way, the sound of your

393
00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:33,720
Speaker 1: pooping is masked by the flushing. Otherwise, you can flush

394
00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:35,720
Speaker 1: your toilet to drown out the sound, and it also

395
00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:38,359
Speaker 1: works as a courtesy flush, so there's no stink. The

396
00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:40,840
Speaker 1: second way will probably result in you doing a double flush,

397
00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:42,720
Speaker 1: and the other person or people might still know that

398
00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:45,080
Speaker 1: you pooped, but at least they won't have actually heard

399
00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:48,200
Speaker 1: the incriminating noises. So that's from Page. I will say

400
00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:51,679
Speaker 1: our bathroom sometimes you get like a mystery flush, and

401
00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:53,600
Speaker 1: you can always just say a tough toilet is just

402
00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:56,640
Speaker 1: flushing like crazy flush. I don't know flush. It wasn't

403
00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:00,600
Speaker 1: me flushing to hide my poop. So guys, send us

404
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:04,240
Speaker 1: your thoughts on anything and everything. We love getting emails

405
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:06,520
Speaker 1: from you guys. They make our day. The email addresses

406
00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:10,119
Speaker 1: mom stuff at how stuff works dot com. During the week,

407
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:13,040
Speaker 1: we have a blog. It's called how to stuff and

408
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:14,920
Speaker 1: you can find that blog as well as many other

409
00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:27,840
Speaker 1: articles on sex, at how stuff works dot com. Want

410
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:30,520
Speaker 1: more how stuff works, check out our blogs on the

411
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:37,359
Speaker 1: house stuff works dot com home page. Brought to you

412
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:40,840
Speaker 1: by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera. It's ready, are

413
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:41,080
Speaker 1: you