1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,360 Speaker 1: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely 2 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 1: those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, 3 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 1: and do not necessarily represent those of iHeart Media, How 4 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:17,080 Speaker 1: Stuff Works, or its employees. When Michael Majeau was recovering 5 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:20,240 Speaker 1: in the hospital, there's evidence that he was shown photographs 6 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 1: of several suspects, people who had been identified by police 7 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: as potential suspects, but there was no solid evidence against them. 8 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:31,320 Speaker 1: Michael Majau was the sole survivor from the Blue Rock 9 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:34,920 Speaker 1: Springs attack on July four, nine sixty nine. He was 10 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: shown photos of potential suspects the morning after the shooting. 11 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 1: As far as we know, according to those police reports, 12 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 1: he never identified any of those individuals at the time. 13 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 1: Alan wasn't in the photo lineup because he wasn't a suspect. 14 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:56,279 Speaker 1: Decades later, in Michael Magee was shown a set of 15 00:00:56,280 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: photographs by retired detective George Bauert from the Leo Police Department. 16 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:04,680 Speaker 1: One of the individuals in that photo lineup was Arthur 17 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 1: Lee Allen. When shown this lineup, according to George Bowart, 18 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:12,959 Speaker 1: Michael Joe pointed to Arthur Lee Allen's photograph and said 19 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:16,639 Speaker 1: that's him that's the man who shot me. And George 20 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:20,840 Speaker 1: Bowart said, are you sure, and he said yes. It 21 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:24,640 Speaker 1: had been more than two decades since the Zodiac attacked Majeaux, 22 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 1: and since that time, Robert Gray Smith's book had popularized 23 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:31,399 Speaker 1: the case against Arthur Lee Allen, which led to Allan's 24 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:35,120 Speaker 1: name and face being widely circulated. It made sense for 25 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 1: Majo to pick Allen in the lineup, but that wasn't 26 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 1: the end of Michael Majoe's statement in It's what happened 27 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: next that changed Michael Butterfield's opinion. And then he pointed 28 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: to the photograph of another individual in that lineup and 29 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: said he had a face like him, and the Valo 30 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: Police Department did not consider his identification to be valid. 31 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 1: Arthur Lee Allen at the time in ninety nine did 32 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 1: not match the description provided by Michael Michelle. And that's 33 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 1: sort of when I woke up to that phenomenon that 34 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: every time you're hearing about the Zodiac case, it's in 35 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 1: the prism of someone's theory. It's not the facts, and 36 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:22,079 Speaker 1: they're tailoring those facts to suit their theory. It's also 37 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: why Michael Butterfield began to doubt Gray Smith's account of events. 38 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: There was a period of time where I was really 39 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:30,519 Speaker 1: impressed with that book and thought that was the whole story. 40 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:33,079 Speaker 1: And then over a short period of time, I started 41 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 1: to realize there's a lot more to that story than 42 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 1: that book. Butterfield doesn't think Arthur Lee Allen is the killer. 43 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:45,120 Speaker 1: And so over a period of years I realized that 44 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:48,519 Speaker 1: the story that you hear about the Zodiac case is 45 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:51,640 Speaker 1: not the real story. And as you examine the facts, 46 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: that story starts to disintegrate, and behind it is this 47 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:59,360 Speaker 1: other story which is much more interesting. It's the true 48 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 1: story of what happened, but that's not often what you 49 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 1: hear in public. A man in a mask robbed, tied, 50 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 1: and stabbed them, leaving them for dad. Subjects stated, I 51 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:19,359 Speaker 1: want to report a murder, no a double murder. I 52 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:23,640 Speaker 1: did it. A man who wore an evil style executioner's hood, 53 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 1: carried a knife and gun and intended to use them. 54 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 1: They haven't Arrestipe because they can't move it. I'm not 55 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 1: damn Zodiac. Who is the Zodiac? And where is he? 56 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 1: From my Heart Radio, How Stuff Works and Tenderfoot TV, 57 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 1: this is Monster, the Zodiac Killer. It seemed as if 58 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 1: the odds were stacked against Arthur Lee Allen. His home 59 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: had been searched over multiple occasions, over decades of time. 60 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 1: He had been harassed by investigators and reporters nearly his 61 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: entire life. But almost all the evidence against Arthur Lee 62 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 1: Allen was Circumstan Danchiel, the timing of the last letters, 63 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 1: the odd items found inside his home, his zodiac watch. 64 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 1: A lot of this was based on one book, Robert 65 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 1: gray Smith's Zodiac, But many people began to notice issues 66 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:16,479 Speaker 1: in that book, including some people whose stories were in it. 67 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 1: There's a lot of rumors around. Everybody said, oh, we 68 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 1: paid cash for that house with drug money. Dean Farren 69 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:27,479 Speaker 1: is the former husband of Darlene Farren, the waitress killed 70 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:31,160 Speaker 1: at Blue Rock Springs. The gray Smith book suggests Darlene 71 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:35,480 Speaker 1: had extra money from selling drugs, which perpetuated the rumor 72 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:39,280 Speaker 1: that Dean and Darlene bought their house with that money. 73 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:41,839 Speaker 1: If they would have done any research, they could have 74 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:43,920 Speaker 1: seen that, Okay, there was a mortgage on it. It's 75 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 1: pretty much public record who owns the house and where 76 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 1: it came from. And that wasn't the only issue Dean 77 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 1: had with the gray Smith book. Then the night of 78 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 1: the shooting itself. He says that the Zodiac called the house, which, okay, 79 00:04:56,560 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 1: that's probably true somebody did. But he says that from 80 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:02,920 Speaker 1: where he was he could look to the back window 81 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 1: of the house and see who answered the phone. Well, 82 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:08,599 Speaker 1: that's impossible because it's like four blocks away and there's 83 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 1: two big buildings with trees and everything around it, so 84 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 1: you can tell he never came to town, and geographically 85 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:16,919 Speaker 1: it couldn't be done. And there's quite a few quotes 86 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: in the book that I've never spoken to the man. 87 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:23,360 Speaker 1: When we spoke with the retired Valeo PD detective at rust, 88 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 1: he was also skeptical of the gray Smith book, the 89 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 1: book that was written about the Zodiac by Robert Graysmith. Yeah, 90 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 1: I never was even contacted by that person. He never 91 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:38,599 Speaker 1: asked me about it or anything, so I I don't know. 92 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 1: He has my name and some comments I made in 93 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 1: his book, but I never spoke with the man, forgot 94 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 1: with him or anything. The book was not the only 95 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 1: source of stories that accused Arthur Lee Allen. There was 96 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 1: also the testimony of Allen's former friend Don Cheney. Cheney's 97 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 1: story heavily implicated Allan, but it's possible he had another motive. 98 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:03,719 Speaker 1: Remember the two men had a falling out because Alan 99 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:07,919 Speaker 1: allegedly tried to molest one of Cheney's children. Could this 100 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 1: be enough motive to try and frame Allan? So by 101 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:18,160 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy one, when the police were investigating, he didn't 102 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: have much to go on or to prove that any 103 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:22,719 Speaker 1: of his accusations were true. They just had to basically 104 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 1: accept what he was saying and then go investigate Allan. Now, 105 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:30,719 Speaker 1: in subsequent years, a lot of people, including myself, who 106 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:34,159 Speaker 1: have gotten access to the police reports, I've interviewed Arthur 107 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 1: Ly Allen's family. UM, I actually interviewed Don Cheney myself 108 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 1: several times, and Don Cheney made statements to me which 109 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 1: were demonstrably false. He embellished elements of his story, he 110 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 1: added elements to his story, he changed elements of his story. 111 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 1: He initially said that this conversation had taken place in 112 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:59,479 Speaker 1: December of nineteen sixty seven, but then he also claimed 113 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 1: that our through Lee, Allen, had been talking about losing 114 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:05,159 Speaker 1: his job, a job that he didn't lose until March 115 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:09,280 Speaker 1: of nineteen eight. So obviously there was something wrong there. 116 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 1: And as soon as Cheney realized that timing didn't match 117 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 1: up with the facts, he changed the date of that conversation. 118 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 1: The date was always crucial because he was claiming this 119 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: occurred before the Zodiac murders began. But later on he 120 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: started claiming that Arthur Lee Allen took him to the 121 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 1: scene of the murders on Lake Cremin Road, that he 122 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 1: talked about disabling women's cars by removing the lug nuts 123 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 1: on their tires. Of course, an allusion to the Kathleen 124 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: John's abduction. That doesn't match up with the Cheney's initial 125 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 1: claim that he hadn't talked to Allen since they're falling 126 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: out in nineteen sixty nine. Also, Cheney didn't add the 127 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 1: detail about disabling cars until he spoke with police for 128 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 1: the second time in nine years after Grace Smith's book 129 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: came out. And what about the connection Cheney made between 130 00:07:56,680 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 1: Arthur Lee Allen and Darlene Farren. Remember, Allen had supposedly 131 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 1: told Cheney he had become friendly with Darlene at the 132 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 1: restaurant where she worked, but Cheney didn't remember Darlene when 133 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 1: he spoke to police in nineteen seventy one and nineteen 134 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 1: ninety one. It wasn't until he spoke with gray Smith, 135 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: not the police, that he made the connection. This was 136 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 1: shortly before gray Smith's second book was published in two 137 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 1: thousand two. The discrepancy in Don Cheney's timelines is the 138 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 1: same with Arthur Lee Allen's watch. Cheney claimed Allen showed 139 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 1: off his new watch on January one, nineteen sixty nine, 140 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 1: but Allen's brother Ron said that's not true. Ron claimed 141 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:41,080 Speaker 1: their mother gave Allen that watch for Christmas in nineteen 142 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 1: sixty seven, the year before. But Cheney originally didn't tell 143 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 1: this to police. Again, it wasn't until years after the 144 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: nineteen six Zodiac book was published that Cheney supposedly remembered 145 00:08:54,400 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 1: this story. So there's some serious, serious problems with Cheney 146 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 1: and his credibility, and he's the foundation for all of this. 147 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 1: I was forced to conclude that Don Cheney was not truthful, 148 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: and that wasn't because I don't like Allen as a suspect, 149 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 1: or because I just didn't want to believe him, because 150 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 1: that's what the facts indicate. That coupled with the accumulated 151 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:23,080 Speaker 1: effect of years of misinformation and propaganda, combined into this 152 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 1: horrible situation for Arthur Lee Allen. Where now most people 153 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:32,080 Speaker 1: were convinced of his guilt, but the information used to 154 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:35,680 Speaker 1: convince them was usually not the truth. I've often thought 155 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:38,200 Speaker 1: about what must have happened when the book Zodiac came 156 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 1: out and had said that Arthur Lee Allen's family believed 157 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:44,960 Speaker 1: that he was the Zodiac and had reported him to police. 158 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: That was not true. Arthur Ly Allen's family never suspected 159 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:52,439 Speaker 1: that he was the Zodiac. They never reported him to police. 160 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 1: But can you imagine the problems that created in his 161 00:09:55,480 --> 00:10:03,319 Speaker 1: family If you think about something like Occam's Razor, was 162 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:07,320 Speaker 1: the most logical explanation that the explanation with the least 163 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 1: unnecessary parts, Then the most likely explanation is that Arthur 164 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 1: Lee Allen was not the Zodiac, and that the reason 165 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 1: most people think he is the Zodiac is because of 166 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 1: that book and then the film adaptation by David Fincher 167 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 1: in two thousand seven, which also altered some facts to 168 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 1: make Allen look more guilty than the facts would permit. So, 169 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:32,440 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, Arthur Lee Allen is 170 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 1: probably the best known Zodiac suspect. He's probably someone that 171 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:40,719 Speaker 1: many people still believe is guilty, but the facts tell 172 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: a very different story. One glaring irregularity in the case 173 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 1: against Arthur Lee Allen was the witness description. Arthur Lee 174 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:07,199 Speaker 1: Allen worked on a hardware store in the Leo and 175 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 1: I had been in that hardware store, and I believe 176 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:13,560 Speaker 1: that contact with him, and he he was about six 177 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 1: ft five light, you know, a big, hefty guy and 178 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 1: probably wade two hundred and fifty pounds or more, big 179 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:25,560 Speaker 1: big man, and I might I dismissed him mainly because 180 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 1: of my interview with Michael Majoe where he described the 181 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: suspect as about five eight or five nine standing next 182 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 1: to that very low profile sports type vehicle that he 183 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 1: was in when he was shot. In my mind, if 184 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 1: Arthur Lee Allen, at six ft five two fifty plus 185 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:49,680 Speaker 1: pounds had walked up to that car, Michael Majoel would 186 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 1: have said this guy was huge or something along that line, 187 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 1: that he would described a very large man, tall, whatever 188 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 1: like that. In his interview with me assistantly stuck to 189 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:04,840 Speaker 1: five a five nine, and the only thing fares being 190 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 1: big and overweight would be the paunch from his belling. 191 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 1: In my mind, that start any anything other than might 192 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 1: what you call gut feeling. There's a cop that Michael 193 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 1: Majol would have given an entirely different description. At the 194 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:22,440 Speaker 1: large man has walked up next to the car too, 195 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 1: But if it's been Arthur Lee Allen, I think it 196 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 1: would have been u much different physical description is at 197 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 1: least in height and weight. Alan's height and weight weren't 198 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 1: the only physical descriptions that didn't add up. Brian Hartnell, 199 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:41,319 Speaker 1: the survivor from Lake Berriessa, did say Alan could possibly 200 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 1: be the Zodiac, but Hartnell also admits the zodiac size 201 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 1: could have been dependent on whether or not the jacket 202 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 1: he was wearing was lined or unlined. Hartnell said if 203 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 1: the killer was wearing a lined jacket, he could have 204 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 1: been a thin man. Again, Hartnell's description didn't match the 205 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 1: six ft two hundred and fifty pound man that was Alan. 206 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 1: But there's a third factor that stands out here. Hartnell said, 207 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 1: when the Zodiac turned his head, he saw some of 208 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 1: the man's hair and it was brown. Arthur Lee Allen 209 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:16,560 Speaker 1: was balding. But it wasn't only victims who said that 210 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:20,680 Speaker 1: Allan didn't match the zodiac's description. It's also interesting to 211 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 1: note that Don Falk, the police officer who reportedly saw 212 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 1: the Zodiac at the scene of the last known murder, 213 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 1: said that Arthur Lee Allen didn't match the description of 214 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 1: the man he saw. Don Falk described the Zodiac as 215 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 1: a white male adult in his early forties, five ft eight, 216 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 1: heavy billed, reddish, blonde, crew cut, and wearing glasses. Again, 217 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 1: the description doesn't match Allan's height or weight, and in 218 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:49,320 Speaker 1: all three cases, not one witness mentioned the Zodiac as balding. 219 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: Majau wasn't the only person in to be shown a 220 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 1: photographic lineup. Kathleen John's, the woman who claims the Zodiac 221 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 1: attempted to kidnap her, was all so shown photos of 222 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 1: possible suspects, but John's didn't pick Allen, she chose someone else. 223 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 1: The eyewitness accounts of the Zodiac didn't match Arthur Lee Allen, 224 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 1: but there was another major factor that also didn't add 225 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 1: up his handwriting. My name is Susan Morton. I am 226 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 1: retired from the San Francisco Police Crime Laboratory, whereas served 227 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 1: for some years as their forensic document examiner. A forensic 228 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: document examiner uses scientific processes to study documents from crime scenes. 229 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 1: Examiners not only compare handwriting, but they can also tell 230 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 1: where the material came from, and if the document has 231 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 1: been altered, I would usually start with the known writing. 232 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 1: My method was to sketch it in my own effort, 233 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 1: and that would make me pay attention to things like size. 234 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 1: Gray shows like if you have a T H combination, 235 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: which is a pretty common combination of letters, which one 236 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 1: is taller, and you'll find that a writer is very 237 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 1: consistent about these ratios. I will figure all of those 238 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 1: out and get fixed in my mind not only how 239 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: this person forms letters and the ratios and things like that, 240 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 1: but how they vary. People are not machines, and they're 241 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 1: never going to write exactly the same way twice, but 242 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 1: they're going to vary within certain parameters. Susan worked at 243 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: a Bay Area laboratory that had done most of the 244 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 1: original work on the Zodiac case. At the time. The 245 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 1: San Francisco Police Department used that lab because they didn't 246 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 1: have a document examiner on staff. The first thing I 247 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 1: would do is see if it was naturally written. When 248 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 1: someone is attempting to copy someone else's signature, they're not 249 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 1: actually right. They're drawing a picture. Drawing and writing are 250 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 1: completely different acts from the writing that is copied. Looks 251 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: very different from normal writing. I'm not going to be 252 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 1: able to tell who did create debt, but I can 253 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 1: determine that the person whose signature it supposedly is did 254 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 1: not write it, because nobody forges their own signature like that. 255 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 1: That's a very laborious process. Susan inherited the Zodiac case 256 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 1: from the San Francisco Police Department. She became what she 257 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 1: calls the custodian of the letters. Susan would do handwriting 258 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 1: comparisons every time a new Zodiac suspect was offered up. 259 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 1: The Zodiac letters were handprinted, and they were extremely fluently 260 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 1: done very rapidly. When you're going fast, you don't have 261 00:16:55,800 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: the ability to disguise your handwriting because you're going to 262 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 1: do what your program tells you to do if you're 263 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:08,640 Speaker 1: going fast. And you can tell this by how the 264 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 1: ends of the letters tail off into a little feathered 265 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 1: because them flying finishes. So I knew that the body 266 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:21,919 Speaker 1: of that writing was the way that person wrote. This 267 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 1: wasn't some disguise that had been devised. The writing had 268 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:35,120 Speaker 1: a right right hand slant, and the D was consistently 269 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 1: more slanted than any of the other letters, and that's 270 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 1: very unusual characteristic and that was consistent throughout all of 271 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:48,199 Speaker 1: the Zodiac's writing. I was of the opinion that it 272 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:52,399 Speaker 1: was the natural writing of that person. Natural handwriting is 273 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:55,680 Speaker 1: the way a person writes with their dominant hand. For example, 274 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 1: if someone who was right handed tried to write with 275 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 1: their left hand, that writing wouldn't be considered natural. Some 276 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:05,960 Speaker 1: people theorized Arthur Lee Allen was ambidextrous and he could 277 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 1: have used his less dominant hand to help disguise his writing, 278 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,680 Speaker 1: but that wouldn't have worked because even if he used 279 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:16,200 Speaker 1: his other hand, it still would have been his natural handwriting. 280 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 1: Susan doesn't believe Arthur Lee Allen disguised his handwriting based 281 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:26,240 Speaker 1: on her findings, and there were numerous consistent differences with 282 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 1: the writing of Arthur ly Allen. I had copious amounts 283 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 1: of his writing contemporaneous to the Zodiac letters. Remember they 284 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: were written back in the sixties and early seventies. But 285 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:43,439 Speaker 1: I had writing of arthurly Allen's from back then, and 286 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:47,160 Speaker 1: it was writing that he did and what we call 287 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 1: a normal course of business. It wasn't something he sat 288 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:54,200 Speaker 1: down and wrote to be used as a handwriting exemplar. 289 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:59,159 Speaker 1: It was application forms and things like that, so he 290 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:02,159 Speaker 1: was unaway or anybody would ever look at that when 291 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:06,880 Speaker 1: he wrote it, and there was just no match whatsoever. 292 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 1: The lab also tried to develop fingerprints from the letters, 293 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 1: but the only usable print developed was a palm print. 294 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 1: It's called a writer's palm, the way a person's hand 295 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 1: rests on a page when they write. So we were 296 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:24,920 Speaker 1: virtually certain that those prints did belong to the writer 297 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 1: of the letters. And also I believe that they did 298 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:34,919 Speaker 1: do a comparison of his palm print to these writer's palms, 299 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:38,919 Speaker 1: and there were several of those of different letters, and 300 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:44,880 Speaker 1: they did not match his palm print. So I don't 301 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 1: think he did not write the Zodiac letters. There was 302 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:53,679 Speaker 1: no indication and much indication that he didn't write it. 303 00:19:56,000 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 1: Every investigation of him eventually cleared him, so it was 304 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:20,119 Speaker 1: not the Zodiac m h. When Arthur Lee Allen was 305 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:23,360 Speaker 1: first questioned in October of nineteen sixty nine, he thought 306 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 1: it made him seem important for the first time. Maybe 307 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:31,200 Speaker 1: instead of being viewed as some pathetic child molester, now 308 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 1: he was being viewed as one of the most brilliant 309 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 1: master criminals in history. And it appears that he may 310 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:39,679 Speaker 1: have bragged about that and may have talked about that. 311 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:42,960 Speaker 1: At least Arthur Lee. Allen's family thought that at first 312 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,679 Speaker 1: he enjoyed that kind of attention, and then it backfired. 313 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 1: It took a lot of my tapes, they took a 314 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 1: samples of my handwriting, and then it became permanent, and 315 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:58,639 Speaker 1: it became a cloud as shadow that followed him for 316 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 1: the rest of his life. I've never been known through 317 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 1: good luck, and I guess this is pretty much living 318 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 1: proof of it. I couldn't murder anyone, but if you 319 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 1: put yourself in his shoes, most people wouldn't want to 320 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 1: be accused of murder. And if they were going to 321 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:18,920 Speaker 1: be accused of murder, at least do it with the facts. 322 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:25,479 Speaker 1: Don't use fiction to accuse somebody. Two types of liars 323 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:28,479 Speaker 1: in the world fishermen and policeman, and not necessarily in 324 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:32,359 Speaker 1: that order. So it's got to be a really terrible 325 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 1: place to be to know that there's a book out 326 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:37,679 Speaker 1: there that claims you're the Zodiac and people believe it. 327 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:40,920 Speaker 1: And while at first you might be tempted to play 328 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:44,200 Speaker 1: along and say, you know, yeah, well maybe I am 329 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 1: the Zodiac or whatever, then it becomes a ball of 330 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 1: chain that you cannot escape. I'm not the Zodiac killer. 331 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 1: I know that. I know that deep my soul. And 332 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:05,400 Speaker 1: by the time they were searching Allen's home and he's 333 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 1: being interviewed by the police and his name is all 334 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:13,439 Speaker 1: over the place, it was all over. At that point, 335 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:16,880 Speaker 1: he had no choice anymore, and he is now going 336 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,640 Speaker 1: to forever be known as the man that was most 337 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 1: likely the Zodiac. I couldn't murder anyone. It's difficult as hell, 338 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 1: and it can be ex it could be terribly depressing. 339 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:37,400 Speaker 1: And if I had deserved any of it, that would 340 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 1: be something different, but I don't today. Ballejo police investigators 341 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:54,919 Speaker 1: said they never charged Allen because they couldn't explain discrepancies 342 00:22:54,960 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 1: in the Zodiac's handwriting. Then you haven't arrested, maybe because 343 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:07,679 Speaker 1: they can't prove a pain. I'm not damn Zodiac, the 344 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 1: Zodiac killer or victim of years at police harassment. Arthur 345 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:16,239 Speaker 1: Lee Allen took the answer to his grave. Arthur Lee 346 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 1: Allen died from natural causes in August of Valio Police 347 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:25,160 Speaker 1: Department officials found him unresponsive on the floor in his basement. 348 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:29,400 Speaker 1: A polygraph agreement was resting in his printer. The Valeo 349 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 1: police had been pushing for Alan to take another polygraph test, 350 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:36,360 Speaker 1: and it seemed he had decided to give in. At 351 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,680 Speaker 1: fifty eight years old, he was still fighting to prove 352 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 1: his innocence. He was one of the most unluckiest people 353 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 1: on the planet because it literally destroyed him. He ended 354 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: up dying about a year after the first search of 355 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 1: his home, and of course they might as well have 356 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:58,119 Speaker 1: carved onto his gravestone the man most people thought was 357 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:03,440 Speaker 1: the Zodiac. So what you're left with is a man 358 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,159 Speaker 1: who has been accused for almost fifty years on the 359 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 1: basis of statements made by two very questionable witnesses. None 360 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,959 Speaker 1: of the evidence implicates them in the crimes. Every single 361 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 1: time they find some evidence, whether it's fingerprints, handwriting, DNA 362 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:23,119 Speaker 1: palm prints, or eyewitness descriptions, it doesn't match Allen, and 363 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 1: his accusers will tell you that's because he's a master 364 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,960 Speaker 1: criminal who was brilliant and could fake evidence and get 365 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 1: away with it. One of those people who clung to 366 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,400 Speaker 1: the belief it was Arthur Lee Allen was Inspector Dave Toski. 367 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,160 Speaker 1: He was first brought onto the case during the cab 368 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:42,639 Speaker 1: driver murder in San Francisco, While Tski hunted for connections 369 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 1: to prove alan was the Zodiac, others began to look elsewhere. 370 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 1: In the late nineteen eighties, I began working for a 371 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 1: company called Orchards Supply Hardware, and later I became a 372 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:02,639 Speaker 1: what's quota regional loss prevention est purity manager for the 373 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 1: hardware stores. I belonged to a couple of different security 374 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:13,240 Speaker 1: associations and one of them, at a luncheon that I 375 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 1: attended at one of the security organizations, they had a 376 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 1: guest speaker who was going to do a presentation on 377 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:24,399 Speaker 1: the Zodiac Killer. And it turned up to be a 378 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 1: man named Harvey Hines Hi n e s who was 379 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 1: actually a police officer, but he had never never worked 380 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:37,880 Speaker 1: in any jurisdiction where any of the claimed Zodiac killings. Yeah, 381 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,280 Speaker 1: he gave a presentation and showed that he had identified 382 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:45,440 Speaker 1: a person named Larry Kine that he believed was the Zodiac. 383 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 1: Next time on Monster the Zodiac Killer, and it was 384 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 1: just so creepy again, just so freaked out. This woman 385 00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 1: is she just quit her job And Larry King was 386 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:04,879 Speaker 1: just a cree be odd char stories like that because 387 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 1: he was part of the mom he may have turned 388 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:13,679 Speaker 1: somebody in and they put him into protection program. For 389 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 1: the last nine years, the Zodiac investigation has been headed 390 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:21,159 Speaker 1: by homicide Inspector David Tusky. I had rulishel de fating 391 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 1: that he was not dead and that he was out 392 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 1: there somewhere and that he would communicate. There is no 393 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:32,360 Speaker 1: official police clamp on Inspectatoski talking with the media. That 394 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,639 Speaker 1: matter is entirely up to him. It went off like 395 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:39,160 Speaker 1: a flash. Oh my goodness, that definitely looks like Zodiac. 396 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 1: So we want to just make some advancements, you know, 397 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 1: and get something major. I think I've come up with 398 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:48,720 Speaker 1: something major. It's an interesting bit of information that nobody 399 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: knew about before, and I think where fifty years into it, 400 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:58,680 Speaker 1: it's time to solve the case. Monster The Zodiac Killer 401 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:02,359 Speaker 1: is a fifteen episode podcast produced by I Heart Radio, 402 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 1: How Stuff Works and Tenderfoot TV. Donald Albright and I 403 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:10,720 Speaker 1: are executive producers on behalf of Tenderfoot TV, alongside producers 404 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 1: Meredith Stepman, Mason Lindsay, and Christina Dana. Jason Hope is 405 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 1: executive producer on behalf of How Stuff Works, along with 406 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:22,200 Speaker 1: producers Trevor Young, Miranda Hawkins, ben Kybrick, and Josh Than 407 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 1: Scott Benjamin provides additional voice talent. Matt Frederick is our host. 408 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:31,919 Speaker 1: Original music is by Makeup and Vanity Set. If you 409 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,160 Speaker 1: haven't already, make sure to check out the first season 410 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 1: of Monster called Atlanta Monster, about the Atlanta child murders 411 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 1: from the late seventies to the early eighties. Download the 412 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 1: ten episode season right now. Have questions or comments, email 413 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:48,159 Speaker 1: us at Monster at how stuff works dot com, or 414 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:51,439 Speaker 1: you can call us at one eight three three eight 415 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 1: five six six six seven. Thanks for listening.