1 00:00:02,080 --> 00:00:04,440 Speaker 1: Before we begin, I just wanted to warn you this 2 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 1: episode contains descriptions of physical violence and war. Previously on 3 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: Hot Money, at. 4 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:16,920 Speaker 2: That point, we just kind of had this sense that 5 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:21,239 Speaker 2: Marcello was this kind of man of action and was 6 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:25,079 Speaker 2: mixed up somehow in Viennese politics. 7 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 3: I know politics is corrupt, I know everything. I know that, 8 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 3: I know that I believed to know that, but this 9 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:32,640 Speaker 3: is too much, I thought. 10 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 2: I hope that he will talk to you and you 11 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 2: will be able to investigate on it and perps misdeeds 12 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 2: and misbehavior stopped. 13 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 1: I'm in tunis, the capital of Tunisia in North Africa. 14 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: I'm in a taxi on the way to meet Killian Klinsmith. 15 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:05,320 Speaker 1: When I first met Killian at Cafe Procul in Vienna, 16 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 1: he began to unravel what he knew about Jan Marcelet. 17 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 1: It was a fantastical tale. It seemed impossible to substantiate, 18 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 1: and as far as Killian was concerned at the time, 19 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 1: it was absolutely not for publication. But I believed it, 20 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 1: and one of the reasons I did was because I 21 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: found out more about who Killian is, not just a fantasist, 22 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 1: someone who should be taken deadly seriously yes, monsieur. We 23 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:42,480 Speaker 1: kept in touch and now he's ready to talk to 24 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:46,320 Speaker 1: me on tape. I can't tell you exactly where he lives. 25 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 1: In fact, we've put our phones in Faraday bags to 26 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 1: come here, electromagnetic shields that will stop the phones giving 27 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:57,279 Speaker 1: away our location. Everything on this trip will be cash only. 28 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: But what I'll say is it's a big private house 29 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 1: on the edge of a fashionable area of the city. 30 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 1: It's surrounded by a high white wall, like all the 31 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 1: houses on this dusty street, and there are great clumps 32 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 1: of magenta bouganvillia spilling over the top. 33 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 3: It is this way. 34 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 1: Ay Killian, I learned, has never led a conventional life. 35 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 1: I'm not even sure he knows what one is, and 36 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 1: perhaps that's why he ended up getting so involved in 37 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 1: one of Jan marsal X's wildest schemes, something so left 38 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 1: field that it helped me truly see marsal x ambitions 39 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:45,640 Speaker 1: something about the lives of tens of thousands of the 40 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: world's most desperate people and how they might be controlled used. 41 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: I've often found that people who operate outside the mainstream 42 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:59,679 Speaker 1: can be weirdly drawn together, sometimes meeting in the ambiguous 43 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 1: space between what the world deems to be good and bad. 44 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:06,360 Speaker 1: We tend to think that our values are at the 45 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 1: core of us, but people on the edge, well, they 46 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 1: can sometimes show us how fragile that notion can be. 47 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 1: In this episode, we're gonna hear Killian's story and how 48 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 1: he found himself in Yan marslex world one very close 49 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 1: but very different to his own. 50 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 4: I have said this census that certain things in my 51 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 4: life since then have done terribly wrong that I sometimes 52 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 4: think this can be a core incidence. 53 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: I'm Sam Jones from The Financial Times and Pushkin Industries. 54 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 1: This is Hot Money, Season three, Agent of Chaos, Episode 55 00:03:48,960 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 1: three Prill Seeking, So where do you want us? Killian, 56 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 1: as we call them. We're walking across a big, open 57 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 1: plan room that takes up almost the whole ground floor. 58 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 1: It's cool and airy, and Killian is directing us over 59 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:18,479 Speaker 1: to an arrangement of low sofas around a coffee table. 60 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 1: He's left the dogs outside, but indoors, there's an assortment 61 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:26,599 Speaker 1: of cats who indifferently reveal themselves to us over the 62 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 1: next few hours. Killian grew up in Berlin in the 63 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies, and he felt drawn to alternative ways of 64 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:39,840 Speaker 1: life from a young age. After some hard partying as 65 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:43,279 Speaker 1: a young punk teen, he left Germany aged just eighteen 66 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 1: to go and live in the mountains in southern France. 67 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 1: And so first there were the goats, thirty five goats 68 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:52,279 Speaker 1: to be exact. 69 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 4: Making gold cheese, which is a pain in the neck 70 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:56,559 Speaker 4: because you have to get up at four in the morning, 71 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:59,799 Speaker 4: five in the morning melting these bloody goats. 72 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 1: So your first job was as a goat farmer basically. 73 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 5: Yes. 74 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:07,599 Speaker 1: Later he founded a housing cooperative, learned how to be 75 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:10,480 Speaker 1: a roofer and picked up a series of odd jobs 76 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: along the way. 77 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 4: Worked as a stuntman somehow Any five Movies We Might 78 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:20,720 Speaker 4: Know or How was a TV series Jan dach. 79 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:24,719 Speaker 1: Jehan dark as in Joan of harc Yes, okay, but 80 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:28,039 Speaker 1: Killian was still restless. He left France and he decided 81 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 1: to tour Africa on a motorbike, and in doing that 82 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 1: he stumbled into humanitarian and peacekeeping work through a chance 83 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 1: encounter over what else but drinks. 84 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 4: I always tell people when they asked me how did 85 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:42,920 Speaker 4: you do your career? I mean how do you apply it? 86 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:44,600 Speaker 4: So that said, they got into the baths. 87 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 1: These are my favorite kind of stories. In a bar 88 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:50,159 Speaker 1: in Mopti, a city in Marley, Killian met a young 89 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:53,559 Speaker 1: French couple. They were building a school and he well, 90 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:57,160 Speaker 1: he had those roofing skills, so he helped them out 91 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:00,159 Speaker 1: and things just took off from there. He got more 92 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 1: construction jobs in the AID world. His responsibilities grew. Eventually, 93 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 1: Killian became a trusted partner for the un working across Africa. 94 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 1: He'd found the unconventional life he was looking for, but 95 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:18,479 Speaker 1: he'd yet to experience real danger, and then one day 96 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:24,599 Speaker 1: all that changed. In nineteen ninety one, Killian was twenty 97 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 1: nine with a young family. They were living happily in Uganda. 98 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 1: It was early in the morning, so he didn't hear 99 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:38,039 Speaker 1: them come in, four men armed. He woke up his 100 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 1: wife next to him with a kalashnikov pressed against his head. 101 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 1: Someone had told these four boys, really that he had 102 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 1: thirty thousand dollars hidden in the house. It was a setup. 103 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 4: And then they did everything with me what you can 104 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:57,039 Speaker 4: do to someone who tried to get thirty thousand dollars. 105 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:59,600 Speaker 1: From as in they beat you up. 106 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 4: Or beating me up, putting me against the wall and 107 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 4: saying now we shoot in your legs, Now we rape 108 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 4: your wife. We've just killed your gardener. We're just oh, 109 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 4: by the way, we killed your cook. Now we're going 110 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 4: to kill your baby or baby crying. 111 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 1: I mean, in that moment, did you think you were 112 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: going to die? 113 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 4: Yes, because at the four guys looking for something they 114 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 4: don't get, getting increasingly agitated and angry. 115 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 3: That's it. 116 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 1: They turned the house upside down. The money, of course, 117 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: wasn't there, but for whatever reason, they didn't kill Killian. 118 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 1: In fact, thankfully they didn't kill anyone. They just left 119 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 1: Killian badly beaten up. The horror of that experience would 120 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 1: have broken most people, and maybe it did Killian, but 121 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:50,880 Speaker 1: not how you would expect. I guess most other people, 122 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 1: or many other people would think, Okay, that's it. I'm 123 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 1: moving back to the Pyrenees with my wife and my 124 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 1: young child. I'm guessing that you didn't do that. 125 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's kind of correct. My wife said, I headed 126 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 4: I need a break somehow, and then she left for 127 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 4: Canada for many months, and I went and said, now 128 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 4: I need to go into it. I need to deep 129 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 4: dive into violence. 130 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 1: And he did. In the coming years, Killian would put himself, 131 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: using his connections in the un into the most dangerous 132 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:32,840 Speaker 1: places he could. When the fighting died down in one place, 133 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 1: he moved somewhere else, often somewhere with an even more 134 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:43,960 Speaker 1: challenging humanitarian situation. South Sudan, Somalia, Zaia, Sri Lanka. He 135 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:47,959 Speaker 1: describes days hiding in swamps while being hunted by militias. 136 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:52,079 Speaker 4: I was surrounded by war, I was surrounded by guns. 137 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:56,119 Speaker 4: Everything I was in fact afraid of or was there plentiful. 138 00:08:56,920 --> 00:08:59,200 Speaker 4: I mean I had sort of transformed from the soft 139 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:05,400 Speaker 4: gold keeping hippie guy into a tough sort of manager 140 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 4: him in the middle of the war. And in transformation 141 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:11,560 Speaker 4: goes pretty fast, I must say. 142 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 1: He told me about one time his compound in Mogadishu 143 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:14,960 Speaker 1: was attacked. 144 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 4: When we get out of the banker, security says it's 145 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 4: all over, but. 146 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 1: There's one guy lying in the street in an army uniform, 147 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:28,199 Speaker 1: and too late they realize he's a suicide bomber, and. 148 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 4: He pulls the trigger and then and then sort of 149 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:33,199 Speaker 4: all the body pads fly over the. 150 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:35,959 Speaker 3: Wall and the rain between us. 151 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:43,079 Speaker 4: So today, when there's a dead mouse somewhere, that's when 152 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 4: everything comes back. That's when the images come back of 153 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 4: dead bodies on the road. 154 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 1: In another story, he tells me it's the height of 155 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:55,200 Speaker 1: the battle for control of Mogadishu when he and a 156 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 1: few others climb up onto the roof of the hotel 157 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 1: where they're staying at dusk, heavy orange sun is in 158 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 1: the sky. 159 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:05,079 Speaker 4: So we were sitting there with a few people having 160 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 4: a beer or whiskey or so, which we've still managed 161 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 4: to get and. 162 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:10,680 Speaker 3: Watching the fighting. 163 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:16,320 Speaker 4: I mean, what's crazily wild, pervertly romantic in the same time, 164 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 4: like watching Apocalypse Now or something. We're seeing the black 165 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:23,960 Speaker 4: Hawks and other choppers flying into the sunset and then 166 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 4: again fighting somewhere and shooting, and you're sitting on your 167 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:29,679 Speaker 4: roof and over you're whiskey. 168 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:35,080 Speaker 1: The horror, it's also bound up with the thrill, with 169 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 1: the sense that this, and not the comforts of a 170 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: peaceful home life, is what's real. And I do get it. 171 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:47,560 Speaker 1: Even listening to Killian recount this stuff is intoxicating. There's 172 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:51,840 Speaker 1: a powerful, hugely seductive kind of beauty to it. It's 173 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:57,440 Speaker 1: disturbing in some ways, but also cinematic. And who hasn't 174 00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 1: thought about their lives as a film? Can I just ask, 175 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:04,679 Speaker 1: how are you feeling during this? Were you afraid? I mean, 176 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:08,440 Speaker 1: given that you've described earlier that in a way you 177 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 1: wanted to plunge into violence to cure yourself with your 178 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 1: fear of it maybe or to somehow kind of move 179 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 1: beyond it. 180 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 3: I mean that's also what to maintain. 181 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 4: Organizations are exploiting in a way because they're getting people 182 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 4: into the sort of this adrenaline hyper thing and they 183 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 4: begin to feel invincible. You're becoming the coolest of the 184 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 4: coolest in all of this. I mean, you're completely hyped up. 185 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:37,959 Speaker 4: I mean I started to feel already very good at this. 186 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 4: That was just basically after two and a half years 187 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 4: of being in war zones, and it felt I was 188 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:45,840 Speaker 4: a champion. 189 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:47,319 Speaker 3: It sounds like a bit of an addiction. 190 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 4: It's, of course it's an addiction, and that's but it's 191 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 4: been also used by the organization. 192 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:56,440 Speaker 1: The organization meaning the un his employer at the time. 193 00:11:57,280 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 1: This is how Killian sees it. 194 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 4: Identifying the people becoming junkies, and they set them a 195 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 4: shot from time to time, so they stay junkies. You 196 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 4: don't get the chance to cool down and get back 197 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 4: to your family. I mean I had a family at 198 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:19,199 Speaker 4: the time, sitting in there. Robit that recuperation becomes stressful 199 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:22,679 Speaker 4: because nobody understands you. I mean, your colleagues become your 200 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 4: friends and your family. They understand what it means when 201 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 4: you say, well, we had an ied, we had an 202 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 4: improvised explosive device, or we had a vbi ID. They 203 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 4: understand what it means. Yes, there has been a car bomb. 204 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 4: Nobody else understands. Nobody understands the feeling of what it means. 205 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 1: Killian climbs the UN ladder, but over time he finds 206 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 1: his Maverick methods rub up against an increasingly bureaucratic organization, 207 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 1: and the way humanitarian work is funded is changing too. 208 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 1: NGO and government budgets are going down, the private sector 209 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 1: institutions and individual wealthy donors are becoming more important than ever. 210 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 1: Over time, Killian begins to feel that perhaps he should 211 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 1: at least try a more normal way of life, so 212 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: after three decades, finally in twenty fourteen, Killian decides to 213 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:24,600 Speaker 1: leave the UN. He settles in Vienna as far as 214 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 1: he can settle, and launches an aid consultancy. A burgeoning 215 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 1: migrant crisis on Europe's borders and in the Balkans in particular, 216 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 1: means he's in high demand, but he doesn't exactly thrill 217 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: to the work. European governments are mostly looking to find 218 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:44,959 Speaker 1: short term domestic solutions for the problem. They don't want 219 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 1: to do the hard stuff tackling it at its source 220 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: in Africa and the Middle East. The consultancy work is 221 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 1: all about fundraising, meetings with stakeholders, trial a la over 222 00:13:56,000 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 1: canopies and powerpoints. It's not a very Killian kind of world. 223 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 1: Enter Jan Marcelek. It was around this time that an 224 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:10,319 Speaker 1: Austrian lobbyist government connected got in touch. He tells Killian, 225 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 1: I want you to meet someone. 226 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:16,959 Speaker 4: I have a client called Jan Masele. He's the CEO 227 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 4: of Wire Cards. That is, in his private capacity, he 228 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 4: wants to contribute to the stabilization of Libya. 229 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 1: In twenty eighteen, Killian gets an invitation to come and 230 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 1: meet his new prospective backer, Marcelek. Marcelex suggests they meet 231 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 1: at the keef Schenker, the very place he met my 232 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 1: editor Paul Murphy and handed him the chemical formula for Navechok. 233 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 1: Keifa Schhenk in English means the ladybird tavern lady barg 234 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 1: If you're American, there are little ladybird emblems and pictures 235 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 1: dotted around, but it's not Kitchie. This is still a 236 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 1: white tablecloth place. All Killian knows is that he's meeting 237 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 1: a wealthy Austrian businessman. He's never heard of Yan Marslek, 238 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 1: but that's not an issue, at least nothing A little 239 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: keyboard due diligence can't smooth. 240 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 4: Started googling a bit and okay, a big luge DAX company. 241 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 1: The DAX is Germany's main stock market index, the forty 242 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 1: largest public German companies. A bit like the S and 243 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 1: P five hundred or the Footsy one hundred. It signals 244 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 1: to Killian that wirecard and mars Lek should be taken seriously. 245 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 4: I had been sort of a lot looking into how 246 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 4: the industry, how business can actually do what the humanitarance 247 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 4: can do. So I thought was a great idea that 248 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 4: if somebody has personal interests or business interests actually contributes, 249 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 4: and it's not the humanitarians are going to stabilize places, 250 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 4: it's business. It's this type of other resources which the 251 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 4: humanitarian world will never produce. 252 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 1: Killian has been told that Marcelek is interested in funding 253 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 1: humanitarian projects in Libya. Libya was a mess since the 254 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 1: Kadafi regime was deposed in twenty eleven at the height 255 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 1: of the Arab Spring. It had been mired in civil war. 256 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 1: Nothing about its future seemed at that point certain, and 257 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 1: it was also thanks to its newfound lawlessness, a highway 258 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 1: for African refugees looking to get into Europe, the longest 259 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 1: then unpatrolled coastline of any African country on the Mediterranean. 260 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 1: A reporter with the ft Borzu Daragahi was on the 261 00:16:57,600 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 1: ground to see what conditions in one of the countries 262 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 1: notorious migrant detention centers were like. 263 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 6: Hot, dirty, Overcrowded cells like this one are a way 264 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 6: of life. At the Garabouli migrant detention Center, just east 265 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:16,160 Speaker 6: of Libya's capital, Tripoli, rooms meant for perhaps twenty people 266 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:20,119 Speaker 6: are commonly filled with one hundred. These men, women and 267 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 6: children have come from as far as Eritrea and Ethiopia. 268 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 6: They risk their lives along desert smuggling routes lined with 269 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:30,159 Speaker 6: bandits and other dangers. 270 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 1: But Libya was also a place rich in opportunities for 271 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:39,160 Speaker 1: those with an appetite for danger. A huge oil exporting nation, 272 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 1: a major military power in Africa, a playground for spies, 273 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:52,360 Speaker 1: the prospect of some work there tantalized Kilian. Marcelek arrives 274 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 1: for lunch. He's all Polish. 275 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 3: They got a little bit jealous. 276 00:17:56,920 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 4: While the sky is bier de mere and he is 277 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 4: good looking, and he is well dressed. Everything he has 278 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 4: smells money and care and everything is perfect. 279 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 3: And I come with my cheap trousers and whatnot. 280 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:16,879 Speaker 1: A little envy prompts some German Austrian rivalry. 281 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 4: Well, there's a typical Austrian sort of showing off person. 282 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:24,639 Speaker 4: I've seen many of those in Vienna. 283 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:30,119 Speaker 1: Over lunch, the conversation becomes competitive, what. 284 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:34,199 Speaker 4: They call alas the male cockfight. In the beginning, they 285 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 4: try to impress the other one of how cool you 286 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:39,439 Speaker 4: are and how tough you are, and where you have 287 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:40,360 Speaker 4: been and so on. 288 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:41,880 Speaker 1: This is you and Marcelec. 289 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 3: You know how two cocks are when they're showing the 290 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 3: nice feathers and so on. 291 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 1: Killian tells Marcelec stories. He recounts the dangerous, violent and 292 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 1: volatile situations he has lived in around the world. But 293 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: Marcelek is not to be outdone. 294 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:06,119 Speaker 4: And then very fast actually he started then talking about 295 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:11,439 Speaker 4: his experience in Syria, facilitated by the boys. Just after 296 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 4: the recapture of the city of Panira from Isis. 297 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 1: When he said, with the boys, what did you now? 298 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 3: He basically said, with the Russians. 299 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 1: Marcelek tells Killian that he arrived in Syria in a migate. 300 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 1: He describes how the helicopter banked and turned, and with 301 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 1: a blast of dry hot air through the open door, 302 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:38,919 Speaker 1: he looked down on the vast ruins of Roman Palmyra below. 303 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 1: He was the guest of the head of intelligence for 304 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 1: the Wagner Group, Russia's most notorious mercenary army. They didn't linger, 305 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 1: Marcelex said it was too dangerous, but there was time 306 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:55,360 Speaker 1: for some photos. I've seen those photos. There's a hastily 307 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 1: snapped selfie in front of the amphitheater, and another shot 308 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 1: in in front of a burned out tank, and one 309 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:06,439 Speaker 1: of him aiming a bazooka. In all of them, Marcelek 310 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 1: is posing basically in body armor and sometimes wearing dark 311 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:16,920 Speaker 1: blue aviators. To me, he seems almost boyishly excited. What's 312 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 1: remarkable is that Marcelek's story, all this boasting about being 313 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:24,879 Speaker 1: in Syria didn't strike Killian as unusual at the time. 314 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:28,679 Speaker 1: But Killian is not a very usual kind of person. 315 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:32,879 Speaker 4: It didn't click in my head that it's a bit 316 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:36,400 Speaker 4: strange that a payment provider would be going into such 317 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 4: an area. 318 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 1: If it had clicked, maybe he could have avoided what 319 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:46,560 Speaker 1: happened next. I can only assume Killian wasn't taken aback 320 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:51,360 Speaker 1: because of the way Marcelek framed the story. He told 321 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 1: Killian that when he saw war ravage Syria for himself, 322 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 1: he realized he wanted to stop that kind of thing 323 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 1: from happening elsewhere, like in Libya. Marcelett convinced Killian that 324 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 1: he wanted to make a difference to make the world 325 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:09,639 Speaker 1: a better place. As Killian understood it, Marcelett wanted to 326 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:13,399 Speaker 1: commission a development plan, a blueprint for how to end 327 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:17,640 Speaker 1: lawlessness on Libya's southern border where there was no government control. 328 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 4: He spoke about the gold mines at the border to 329 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:23,679 Speaker 4: Chat where people have to work for two years to 330 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:27,439 Speaker 4: get their passage to Europe paid off. He spoke about 331 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 4: the guys sitting in Monaco and being the people behind 332 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:35,920 Speaker 4: the whole business, that they were earning one hundred dollars 333 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:40,919 Speaker 4: per person crossing into Europe. He displayed sort of a 334 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 4: more emotional something has to be done to stop out 335 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:46,400 Speaker 4: of that. 336 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:54,679 Speaker 3: And maybe I felt that he was genuine in that. 337 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 1: Somehow he sounds quite impressive. 338 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:01,439 Speaker 4: It didn't click as sort of a police ploid at 339 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 4: that moment. It felt more, Yes, I want to do something. 340 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 4: I want to contribute, so I will put two hundred 341 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:10,679 Speaker 4: thousand euros into your Killian and your team so that 342 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 4: there should be collateral financing to have a full plan 343 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:18,639 Speaker 4: of what to do with Libya so that this doesn't happen. 344 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,880 Speaker 1: Killian came away from his first lunch with Jan Marsleg 345 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:27,200 Speaker 1: feeling good about his new project and his new client. 346 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 1: He built a team and he got to work doing 347 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 1: research and making plans to pull together a kind of 348 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:37,119 Speaker 1: feasibility study on how to bring law and order to 349 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:40,240 Speaker 1: the region and improve the lives of the people living there, 350 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 1: who to speak to and what to say to them. 351 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,359 Speaker 1: But it wasn't long before there were signs that not 352 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:49,639 Speaker 1: all was as it seemed. Killian had been told that 353 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 1: he could trust Marcelec's handshake and that Marcelec wouldn't sign 354 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:57,400 Speaker 1: a contract anyway, so there wasn't much Killian could do 355 00:22:57,520 --> 00:22:59,880 Speaker 1: about what happened next. 356 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 3: Then no money. There was no payment for me. 357 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:06,160 Speaker 1: I mean, did it not strike you as odd that 358 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:10,920 Speaker 1: there's this. There's this wealthy backer who has money and 359 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: he's just not not paying. 360 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:14,520 Speaker 4: Yes, of course, I said, what's this? I mean, you 361 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 4: told me it's undshake quality. Finally engaged with our the contracts. 362 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 4: Should have never done this, big mistake. 363 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:28,159 Speaker 1: At this point, Killian is still dealing with marcele X 364 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 1: through an intermediary marcele X's lobbyist in Vienna, and after 365 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 1: a lot of pestering about the missing finance, the intermediary 366 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:40,920 Speaker 1: gives him a very strange answer. He says, send your 367 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:47,119 Speaker 1: invoice to the Libyan Russian Institute in Moscow, which is 368 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 1: odd because no such institute even seems to exist there. 369 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:55,399 Speaker 1: There's more. When Killian suggests that they should organize a 370 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 1: trip to Libya so he can talk to his backer 371 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,400 Speaker 1: about his plans and show him how they might work 372 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 1: on the ground. He gets told this will also be arranged, 373 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 1: but from Moscow. 374 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 4: The trip will be organized by Colonel tribly Gin under 375 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 4: the Triblean in Moscow. So who was colonel and the Triblegian, Oh, 376 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:23,159 Speaker 4: here's the coordinator of Russian interests in Northern Africa and 377 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 4: the Middle East. 378 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,640 Speaker 1: By now I'm thinking for almost anyone, the jig would 379 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:32,200 Speaker 1: be up. Whatever this project was, it was not simply 380 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 1: some idea from an Austrian businessman with a good heart 381 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:39,399 Speaker 1: and an open checkbook. Killian, though, still didn't pull the plug, 382 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:43,280 Speaker 1: maybe because at this point he's already paid his team 383 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,879 Speaker 1: a considerable amount of money from his own pocket, and 384 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 1: he's really quite proud of the work they've done, the 385 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:53,160 Speaker 1: study they've begun to produce. So he needs to sort 386 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 1: things out one way or the other, and the only 387 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 1: way to do that is to demand another face to 388 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 1: face meeting with Mas. And that's how. In February twenty eighteen, 389 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 1: Killian finds himself standing on a street corner in a 390 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 1: wealthy district of Munich. On the opposite side of the 391 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:19,879 Speaker 1: street is the Russian Consulate. He's waiting directly outside a grand, 392 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:23,879 Speaker 1: four story Grundadzite nineteenth century villa. 393 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 4: One of these big mansions will find in Vienna, you 394 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:29,600 Speaker 4: will find in Munich, you will find in all the 395 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 4: century of European cities where very wealthy business families built us. 396 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 1: At some point, it's so big he struggles to figure 397 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:42,480 Speaker 1: out how to get in. There doesn't seem to be 398 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 1: a doorbell when. 399 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 4: Somehow the doors of the villa they open mysteriously. 400 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 1: This is Jan Marcelek's house and personal office. Marcelect meets Killian, 401 00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 1: who is with a colleague on the first floor. There's 402 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:03,480 Speaker 1: some impressive contemporary art on the walls, but not a 403 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 1: lot tells. 404 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 4: Normal people when they live in a place, there is 405 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,959 Speaker 4: always some crap lying around. I mean it's a place 406 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:14,960 Speaker 4: where we kind of live. And when I come into 407 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:19,159 Speaker 4: place like that and it feels like it's like a showroom, 408 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 4: it's nothing personal. 409 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 1: They enter a capacious meeting room. There's a spread of coffee, 410 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,239 Speaker 1: juices and biscuits. They make small talk and then they 411 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 1: get down to business, but it doesn't go well. 412 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:35,919 Speaker 3: Marsidic was visibly bored. 413 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:41,479 Speaker 4: He sort of treated as little boys who come up 414 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 4: with ridiculous, humilitanian crap. Basically said, this was all child's stuff, 415 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 4: children's stuff, This is too small. I was thinking big projects, 416 00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 4: big industries. 417 00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 3: I mean, basically dismissed what we had done. 418 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:04,399 Speaker 1: But Marceilllek is excited about something else. He's got a 419 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 1: video he wants to show Killian. 420 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,880 Speaker 4: I have in German as a guile, I mean exciting 421 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 4: a video material. 422 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 1: Gile in this context, I think you'd probably best translators. 423 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:22,680 Speaker 1: Sexy cool. Marcelex seems pretty psyched up about it. It's 424 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 1: a video filmed using some new military equipment, body cams 425 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 1: worn by soldiers, bodycams worn by Wagner the Russian Mercenary Army. 426 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 1: Marceilek is interested in getting some of these cameras for 427 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:40,600 Speaker 1: his own purposes. He boasts to Killian that the content 428 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 1: of the video is shocking. 429 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 4: Can show it because the boys are killing all the prisoners, 430 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:49,720 Speaker 4: So it can be used in public. 431 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 1: Because it's the video is graphic footage of people being murdered. 432 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,960 Speaker 4: Yes, but it's great footage, and so it's pretty basically 433 00:27:58,040 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 4: we can show it. 434 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:01,359 Speaker 3: And I sort of Butt's talked about all this after 435 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:01,840 Speaker 3: the meeting. 436 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 1: What were you thinking when he was saying that. 437 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 3: Or should there's something going on here? 438 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:19,439 Speaker 1: Killian finally begins to understand that this humanitarian project is 439 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 1: not at all what it seems. Trying to move things 440 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,199 Speaker 1: on from the video, Killian asks how this relates to 441 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 1: their work. The answer chills Killian. He says, Marcelett told him. 442 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:37,160 Speaker 4: What I want really is to convert militia men into borderguards. 443 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 4: Fifteen twenty thousand something big, and we train and equip them. 444 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 1: And sid he wants to create a military force in Libya, 445 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 1: a border guard that would stop migrants crossing into or 446 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 1: out of Libya. He wants to equip it, and fund 447 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 1: it and control it. 448 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 3: That was sort of a key moment where it said 449 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 3: there's something very wrong. 450 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 1: Afterwards, Killian replayed that meeting over and over in his head. 451 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,040 Speaker 1: He asked himself, who is Jan Marcelek? 452 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 3: Really? 453 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,080 Speaker 1: He couldn't come up with a clear answer, and perhaps 454 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 1: since his invoices were still open, he didn't want to. 455 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 1: But there was something about the whole situation which made 456 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 1: him think that Marcelek might not just be a wealthy fantasist, 457 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 1: that he might be serious about these proposals, and he 458 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 1: might even have the means to achieve them. He tried 459 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: to ignore that feeling until he couldn't. 460 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:42,840 Speaker 4: It really sort of clicked completely later that year, October November. 461 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 1: That's when Killian bumped into a military contact who had 462 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 1: also been working on the side with Marceilek. 463 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 3: He tells him, Killian, you know, with Jan one cannot work. 464 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 3: He's too close to the Russians. 465 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 4: So from that point onward, yes, and that's late twenty eighteen. 466 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 4: Here I am with something that I knowed that is 467 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 4: a lot more to the whole story. 468 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 1: Killian Kleinschmidt knows he has potentially explosive information about jan Marcelek, 469 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,200 Speaker 1: but Killian also knows he has to be careful. He 470 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 1: knows Austria well enough now enough to know that Marcelek, 471 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 1: while somewhat in the shadows, seems to be extremely well connected. 472 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 1: Months go by, and then in the summer of twenty nineteen, 473 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 1: Killian sees an opportunity to raise the alarm. He's in 474 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 1: Tunis and he's invited to a garden party at the 475 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 1: residence of the Austrian ambassador to Libya who's based there. 476 00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 1: He grabs a few minutes with the host and. 477 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,960 Speaker 4: I explained to him the story an Austrian national very 478 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 4: much doing strange things and Libya and whether there was 479 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 4: on the radar screen and so on. And when I 480 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 4: had finished the story, and he said, how you have 481 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 4: to be careful. 482 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 3: It could be one of them. 483 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 1: You have to be careful. I could be one of them. 484 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:24,000 Speaker 1: Even though this sounds ominous. When I first heard this, 485 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:27,320 Speaker 1: I took it as a joke. And the ambassador confirmed 486 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 1: as much to me. He told me he remembers meeting 487 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:34,440 Speaker 1: Killian but doesn't recall exactly what he said, and that 488 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:38,520 Speaker 1: making joking remarks sounds like something he'd probably do just 489 00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 1: to try and break the ice. He wanted to make 490 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,520 Speaker 1: clear though, that he didn't and doesn't have a connection 491 00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:49,560 Speaker 1: to Marcelek regardless. Back then, at this party, Killian is 492 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,560 Speaker 1: already feeling nervous and gets the impression he should hold 493 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 1: his tongue, an impression reinforced when a year later, at 494 00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 1: the same garden party, the ambassador joked again. 495 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 4: That's when he's said in front of other people and 496 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 4: saying it, Oh, that's Kleinschmidt. Yeah, I have the instruction 497 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 4: to not let you out alife. So obviously humor, but 498 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:18,720 Speaker 4: it was as well kind of menacing, kind of immature. 499 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 1: I mean, even though it was a joke, there is 500 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:25,800 Speaker 1: a slight message there for you, isn't there. He's trying 501 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 1: to tell you something, which is maybe that you're annoying 502 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:29,600 Speaker 1: or maybe you should shut up. 503 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 3: But basically yes. 504 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 1: So from then on, Killian only speaks to one or 505 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 1: two close friends about Marcelek. He worries that if he 506 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:42,880 Speaker 1: tells anyone who knows him less well, he might land 507 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 1: himself in serious trouble or end up sounding like well, 508 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 1: a bit cracked, another unpaid contractor with an ax to 509 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:53,920 Speaker 1: grind and a conspiracy to pedal but other events at 510 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 1: the time, they keep making him a question again and again, 511 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:02,200 Speaker 1: just what was Marcelek up to. A few months after 512 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 1: Killian broke off his connection with mars Leg, he moved 513 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 1: to northern Greece. The borders were closed. Huge numbers of 514 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 1: migrants were trying to come into Europe from the Levante 515 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:14,960 Speaker 1: due to the war raging in Syria. Even though Killian's 516 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:19,120 Speaker 1: officially retired from the UN he'd remained plugged in. Thanks 517 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 1: to Killian's years of frontline work. His network of sources 518 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:27,680 Speaker 1: bring him disturbing nuggets of information about the situation. They 519 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 1: tell him, even though the borders are closed, it seems 520 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:34,480 Speaker 1: that over and over again, desperate groups of migrants believe otherwise. 521 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:36,840 Speaker 1: They're being fed lies. 522 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:42,280 Speaker 4: Through my network, we found out that somehow there were 523 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:46,719 Speaker 4: rumors spread that Merkel would open the borders again. 524 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:52,000 Speaker 1: Angela Merkel, Germany's chancellor. At the time, she had already 525 00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 1: accepted hundreds of thousands of migrants into Germany. 526 00:33:55,240 --> 00:34:00,280 Speaker 4: We've found very strong indications in photos of people who 527 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 4: were in different locations telling that story. And this story 528 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:08,920 Speaker 4: of it went from northern Iraq, and it was in Turkey, 529 00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 4: it was in the entire region, the sort of go Europe. 530 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:17,760 Speaker 1: Telling that story to refugees and camps. 531 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 4: And camps and out of camps already on the move, 532 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:24,960 Speaker 4: already in Greece and so on. So people have started 533 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:25,920 Speaker 4: moving in this direction. 534 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,279 Speaker 1: Hospitals are being bombed in Syria at the time by 535 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:34,040 Speaker 1: the Russians who are fighting alongside their client Basha Asad, 536 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:38,600 Speaker 1: the country's ruler. They seem to be deliberately worsening the 537 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:44,080 Speaker 1: humanitarian crisis, and something for Killian falls into place. What 538 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:47,240 Speaker 1: if the Russians are spreading these lies about open borders 539 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,920 Speaker 1: in Europe too? He makes the leap back to Marsilek. 540 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:54,800 Speaker 1: What if Marsilek wanted to do something similar in southern Libya, 541 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:59,720 Speaker 1: to use a force controlling the border to influence migrant flows. 542 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:04,799 Speaker 1: At first, it all feels too outlandish to him, but 543 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 1: with time he starts to believe it. For the most part, though, 544 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:12,240 Speaker 1: he keeps all these suspicions to himself now to fear, 545 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:20,160 Speaker 1: until the day he spoke to me. When Gillian told 546 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:23,960 Speaker 1: it to me, it rang Bells. I thought straight away 547 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:27,319 Speaker 1: of the late US Senator John McCain. He'd said the 548 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:30,800 Speaker 1: very same thing in twenty sixteen at the Munich Security 549 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,359 Speaker 1: Conference with reference to Syria. 550 00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:37,400 Speaker 7: Mister Putin is not interested in being our partner. He 551 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:39,960 Speaker 7: wants to shore up the Asad regime. He wants to 552 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:42,880 Speaker 7: re establish Russia as a major power in the Middle East. 553 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,839 Speaker 7: He wants to use Syria as a live fire exercise 554 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:51,640 Speaker 7: for Russia's modernizing military, and he wants to exacerbate the 555 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:56,640 Speaker 7: refugee crisis and use it as a weapon to divide 556 00:35:56,680 --> 00:36:01,400 Speaker 7: the Transit Plantic Alliance and undermine the European Project. 557 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:08,719 Speaker 1: Russia's interest in weaponizing migration was being taken seriously as 558 00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:11,800 Speaker 1: a threat to NATO by the world's biggest military power, 559 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:17,680 Speaker 1: the USA. So this idea of Killians that marsilect could 560 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:20,960 Speaker 1: be working for Russia in Libya to control migration for 561 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:26,520 Speaker 1: political influence, it's actually not as far fetched as it seems. Then, 562 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:31,840 Speaker 1: six months after I first met Killian in June twenty twenty, something. 563 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:38,200 Speaker 8: Happened extraordinary story admission, of course, from payments for wirecard 564 00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:41,319 Speaker 8: this week that the missing two billion dollars may never 565 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:42,520 Speaker 8: have existed at all. 566 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,200 Speaker 1: After months of tireless reporting by my colleague at the FT, 567 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:51,480 Speaker 1: Dan McCrumb Wirecard, the fintech giant Marcelect had helped build 568 00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:55,120 Speaker 1: as chief operating officer, the corporate edifice around which he 569 00:36:55,200 --> 00:37:00,960 Speaker 1: had constructed his entire public persona collapsed. Meanwhile, Wire Cards 570 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:02,839 Speaker 1: auditors are in hot water too. 571 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:05,839 Speaker 3: E Y says a two point one billion dollar hole 572 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:09,280 Speaker 3: in the firm's accounts is the result of sophisticated fraud. 573 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:12,480 Speaker 1: Now Marcus Brown, of course has resigned or has we done? 574 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:14,960 Speaker 1: On Friday as the CEO of that company. 575 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:17,560 Speaker 8: The chief operating officer was also sacked over the weekend. 576 00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 1: Once our card exploded, some of the other people involved 577 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 1: in marcelex Libya scheme they became more talkative, and within 578 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:31,719 Speaker 1: well just four weeks or so, Killian's crazy tale went 579 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:35,920 Speaker 1: from being an unprintable conspiracy to an established set of 580 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:41,080 Speaker 1: facts we could attribute to multiple sources. But I wanted 581 00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:43,920 Speaker 1: to be certain we weren't overinterpreting marcle X's links to 582 00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:47,440 Speaker 1: Russian intelligence, so I went with what we knew to 583 00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 1: one of my most important contacts, I can't really tell 584 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:53,440 Speaker 1: you about them. That's a condition of me being in 585 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:56,480 Speaker 1: touch with them. But they work for a European government. 586 00:37:56,680 --> 00:38:01,920 Speaker 1: Let's leave it there. They confirmed what I thought, Marceleck 587 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:05,720 Speaker 1: really did have ties to Russian spies. Specifically, it seemed 588 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:11,480 Speaker 1: to the GRU, Russia's fearsome military intelligence agency, the organization 589 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:16,279 Speaker 1: responsible for the Salisbury poisonings. Killian decided he wanted to 590 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:20,040 Speaker 1: go public. He outed himself and gave testimony to a 591 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:25,040 Speaker 1: special committee of the German Parliament investigating Wakaart. Killian doesn't 592 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:28,600 Speaker 1: regret doing that, but he's also over time become more 593 00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:31,400 Speaker 1: and more convinced that he was right to be afraid. 594 00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:35,520 Speaker 1: His life has never quite been the same. Twice now 595 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:38,440 Speaker 1: he's been on the edge of financial ruin thanks to 596 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:42,120 Speaker 1: projects he's gotten involved in which have exploded in his face. 597 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:44,719 Speaker 1: And he doesn't think it's a coincidence. 598 00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:48,040 Speaker 4: It may not be sort of the extreme sort of 599 00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:51,239 Speaker 4: movie style revenge, but it may be a sort of 600 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:58,680 Speaker 4: destroy option of guiding me and leading me into traps, 601 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:04,280 Speaker 4: which is very intelligent if you want to make somebody suffer. 602 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:08,480 Speaker 4: I was promised things which never happened, and so almost 603 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,520 Speaker 4: by design, and it led to one of the most 604 00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:16,520 Speaker 4: horrible years in my life and being completely destitute. 605 00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:21,600 Speaker 1: In fact, even now he struggles. He keeps being approached 606 00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:25,759 Speaker 1: by odd characters, people connected to Russia, who seemed to 607 00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:30,200 Speaker 1: be trying to lure him into misadventures. For all his experience, 608 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:34,759 Speaker 1: his bravery, and his force of personality, Killian still ended 609 00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:41,440 Speaker 1: up vulnerable. What Killian revealed about Marcelek was it still 610 00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:44,800 Speaker 1: is wild. But it wasn't the end of the story 611 00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:48,120 Speaker 1: at all. It was really just the beginning. It was 612 00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:51,280 Speaker 1: a revelation that triggered as many questions as it answered. 613 00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:55,400 Speaker 1: Was marcelect working exclusively for the Russians? Was he a 614 00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:59,319 Speaker 1: kind of freelancer? Did the wire card fraud involve Russia too? 615 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:04,480 Speaker 1: What did Russia want from Marcelek? The obvious person to ask, 616 00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:13,680 Speaker 1: of course, was Marcelec himself, except we couldn't. On June seventeenth, 617 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:18,960 Speaker 1: twenty twenty, with Warkard's management, employees and shareholders still reeling 618 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:22,600 Speaker 1: from the fact that billions were missing, Jan Marcelek told 619 00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:26,520 Speaker 1: colleagues he was urgently flying to Manila, where the money 620 00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:30,560 Speaker 1: was supposed to have disappeared. He said he was going 621 00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:33,760 Speaker 1: to sort out the mystery and prove Warkard had nothing 622 00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:38,240 Speaker 1: to hide except in reality. He was in a car 623 00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:43,920 Speaker 1: heading across the Alps. It was a beautiful day, hot, 624 00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:49,440 Speaker 1: a clear blue sky, perfect weather to fly. Pad Verslau 625 00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:53,440 Speaker 1: Airport is a small regional airstrip in Austria used mostly 626 00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:56,960 Speaker 1: by amateur aviators. A car pulled up on the tarmac 627 00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:02,200 Speaker 1: that day and outstepped Jan Marcelek. The border checks were 628 00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:06,440 Speaker 1: a formality. No one was really watching down there. Marceleck 629 00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:09,840 Speaker 1: had a suitcase with him. It was full of cash. 630 00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:18,120 Speaker 1: Here's you're fair, he must have told the pilot, next stop, Minsk, Belarus, 631 00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:22,879 Speaker 1: coming up on hot money. The people who were left 632 00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:25,479 Speaker 1: behind trying to make sense of it. 633 00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:33,800 Speaker 5: All, and we walked around and unbelievable. You walk around 634 00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:37,600 Speaker 5: and you see a parallel world and all the explanation 635 00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:40,120 Speaker 5: he had. This room is sound proof. This room is 636 00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:46,320 Speaker 5: got searched every other week by a specialist for microphones 637 00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:48,200 Speaker 5: and surveillance stuff. 638 00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:53,040 Speaker 1: We were flabberg acid, We were speechless. 639 00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:55,120 Speaker 3: It had never happened like that. 640 00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:58,920 Speaker 6: I mean, we were all important people in the company 641 00:41:59,000 --> 00:41:59,680 Speaker 6: that it. 642 00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:03,880 Speaker 3: Was like a persona face. The top ten white collar 643 00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:05,960 Speaker 3: crime of Theory. 644 00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:12,920 Speaker 2: Minas and Financier from Lubishop Vad and Me. 645 00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:19,279 Speaker 1: Hot Money is a production of The Financial Times and 646 00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:24,520 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries. It was written and reported by me Sam Jones. 647 00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:28,719 Speaker 1: The senior producer and co writer is Peggy Sutton. Our 648 00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:33,719 Speaker 1: producer is Izzy Carter. Our researcher is Marine Saint. Our 649 00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:37,960 Speaker 1: show is edited by Karen Shakerji, fact checking by Kira Levigne. 650 00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:43,120 Speaker 1: Sound design and mastering by Jake Gorsky and Marcelo de Olivia, 651 00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:47,920 Speaker 1: with additional sound design by Izy Carter. Original music from 652 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:52,359 Speaker 1: Matthias Bossi and John Evans of Stellwagen Symphonet. Our show 653 00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:57,280 Speaker 1: art is by Sean Carney. Our executive producers are Cheryl Brumley, 654 00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:03,240 Speaker 1: Amy Gains McQuaid and Matthew Garreher. Additional editing by Paul Murphy. 655 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:09,120 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Ruler Claugh, Dan McCrumb, Laura Clark, Alistair Mackie, 656 00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:15,640 Speaker 1: Manuela Saragosa, Nigel Hanson, Vicki Merrick, Eric Sandler, Morgan Ratner, 657 00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:21,560 Speaker 1: Jake Flanagan, Jacob Goldstein, Sarah Nix and Greta Cohne. I'm 658 00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:22,240 Speaker 1: Sam Jones.