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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Noel. They called

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Speaker 1: me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer

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Speaker 1: or Alexis code name Doc Holiday Jackson. Most importantly, you

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Speaker 1: are you. You are here, and that makes this the

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Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to know. You could call

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Speaker 1: them UFOs, You can call them u a p s.

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Speaker 1: You can call yourself a skeptic. You can call yourself

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Speaker 1: a true believer in strange things in the sky. But

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Speaker 1: one thing is for sure. UFOs are part of the

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Speaker 1: mainstream conversation now more than any time since the UFO

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Speaker 1: craze of the fifties. We have been living through exciting times.

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Speaker 1: Mentioned this earlier on the air, Guys, but uh, it

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Speaker 1: was so funny. Amid the pandemic, the United States government

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Speaker 1: came out and said UFOs are real, we don't know

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Speaker 1: what's going on, and the American public pretty much went,

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Speaker 1: uh fine, I got I got other stuff, you know.

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Speaker 1: Collective shrug emoji you know, and it was a strange

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Speaker 1: time and this this continues and we um, but we

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Speaker 1: are very much invested in this ongoing conversation here on

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Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to know. And fellow conspiracy realist,

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Speaker 1: you know, one of our favorite things to do is

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Speaker 1: to speak with experts in the field, regardless of what

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Speaker 1: field we are talking about. And that is why we are, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, flying saucer over the moon to be speaking

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Speaker 1: today with the journalists, the educator, the creator of Alien State,

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Speaker 1: a podcast that dives deep into this conversation with m

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Speaker 1: J Benyas. M J. Thank you so much for coming

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Speaker 1: on the show with us today. I am honored to

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Speaker 1: be here. Thank you so much for having me. This

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Speaker 1: is unbelievable. Oh man, get out of here. You know

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Speaker 1: what we didn't mention is you're an author. Uh just

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Speaker 1: really quickly, before we even jump in, let's just go

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Speaker 1: over some of the the works you've created. I believe

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Speaker 1: one of the main ones is the UFO People, a

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Speaker 1: curious culture. Yeah. So um. In early I think or gosh,

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Speaker 1: I you ever remember anymore? Seventeen who knows anymore? I

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Speaker 1: wrote a book, yeah, called the UFO People, and it

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Speaker 1: was Um, it's a book about the UFO subculture as

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Speaker 1: a sort of collective um group that that sort of

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Speaker 1: has a very sort of similar belief system, ideological framework, whatever.

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Speaker 1: And I really wanted to sess out why do people,

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Speaker 1: even UFOs like what's going on here? And how does

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Speaker 1: it impact our culture in our society. So the book

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Speaker 1: is sort of like a subcultural analysis of of the

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Speaker 1: UFO community. And then that led to me sort of

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Speaker 1: engaging with Vice and I was their weird weird shit

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Speaker 1: guy for a while writing about UFOs and other spooky

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Speaker 1: things and other strange events, um. And then a ton

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Speaker 1: of that that just led to a bunch of other

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Speaker 1: projects with Vice and Popular Mechanics and and now Sony.

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Speaker 1: So um, yeah, it's been. It's been this kind of

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Speaker 1: trajectory of of I'm not sure how it happened, but

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Speaker 1: I was able to turn my weird sort of interest

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Speaker 1: in UFO subculture to somehow like a very prolific side

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Speaker 1: hustle that is like verging on main hustle, say, like

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Speaker 1: got you on a tractor beam and you're just right

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Speaker 1: and pulled up there. It is. I'm so glad that

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Speaker 1: we're starting with the UFO people because I really appreciated

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Speaker 1: your approach to this subject. I mean, let's be honest, J.

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Speaker 1: This is a world that is fraught with at times

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Speaker 1: problematic hyperbole. UH. And we'll get into move on, I hope,

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Speaker 1: in a little bit. But one thing about the book

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Speaker 1: is that you approach this concept of ufology and the

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Speaker 1: search for the unknown through UH a lens that I

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Speaker 1: find distinct. It is cultural exploration, there's anthropology to it.

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Speaker 1: It's critical thought, and I believe this makes it incredibly

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Speaker 1: different from many other books that publishers would say are

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Speaker 1: in the same field. You you talk about how this

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Speaker 1: book set you on a trajectory that in a very

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Speaker 1: real way led to our conversation today. But could you

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Speaker 1: tell us what inspired you to set about writing the work,

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Speaker 1: like writing the actual book. Are you one of those

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Speaker 1: you know did you have all right, I'll say it plainly,

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Speaker 1: did you see a UFO MJ? And say, I have

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Speaker 1: to know about I'm one of the few people in

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Speaker 1: this world who have I've never had a single UM

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Speaker 1: I guess you could say sort of euphological or paranormal experience.

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Speaker 1: I've never seen a ghost, I've never um seen a

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Speaker 1: strange light in the sky and was unable to sort

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Speaker 1: of figure out what it was after a bit of

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Speaker 1: you know, thinking and maybe some research. Um so so, No,

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Speaker 1: I have never seen anything strange. My interest sort of

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Speaker 1: was academic purely at the beginning. I was really just

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Speaker 1: interested in figuring out why people think about this subject

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Speaker 1: the way they do. And I have a background in

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Speaker 1: history and philosophy and culture studies. So for me, it

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Speaker 1: was just my jam my sort of academic interest and

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Speaker 1: it I guess, I guess that he kind of evolved

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Speaker 1: as I started doing the research. I realized that this

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Speaker 1: was a very kind of prolific mindset that exists amongst

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Speaker 1: people like you can, like I I say in the podcast,

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Speaker 1: you can walk into any bar in North America. You

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Speaker 1: can walk into any bar probably in the world and

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Speaker 1: just say, hey, have you ever seen anything weird? To

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Speaker 1: just like a table of people like any like ghosts, monsters, bigfoot, UFOs, aliens, whatever,

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Speaker 1: And you will get eventually, like fifty or sixty of

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Speaker 1: that bar will come to you sort of throw your

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Speaker 1: night there, and they'll be like, yeah, you know, my

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Speaker 1: mom saw something or my dad saw something, or my

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Speaker 1: brother or I or whatever, and all of a sudden

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Speaker 1: you have this these stories coming at you, and that's

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Speaker 1: how it all started. I just wanted to hear people's

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Speaker 1: stories because I maybe had never had my own experience,

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Speaker 1: and that's how it all began. It was just sort

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Speaker 1: of this collection of me trying to interview people and

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Speaker 1: have their stories written down, and then it evolved into

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Speaker 1: trying to have way too many stories. How do I

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Speaker 1: now boil this down into kind of like the key

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Speaker 1: key ideas that surround the UFO topic. It's interesting, I mean,

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Speaker 1: it really is kind of this modern folklore. You know,

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Speaker 1: all of the things you just kind of laundry listed,

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Speaker 1: you know, ghosts, the paranormal, UFOs, government cover ups, all

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Speaker 1: of these things. Everyone's got something to say, some inside

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Speaker 1: perspective or some scoop that that they think, you know,

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Speaker 1: they caught a glimpse of something mysterious that they want

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Speaker 1: to talk about. Um and it is largely passed around

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Speaker 1: in the same way as you know, these kinds of

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Speaker 1: stories of fairies and goblins and wizards and stuff were

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Speaker 1: passed around. It's like verbal you know, oral tradition like

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Speaker 1: at bars or around campfires or what have you. Um

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Speaker 1: with us, you know, every time someone asked us about

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Speaker 1: the show. We always start off by saying, it's a

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Speaker 1: critical thinking approach to conspiracy theories. And I think it's

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Speaker 1: very important caveat because it is a measured, you know,

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Speaker 1: thoughtful way of discussing these things that are, whether you

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Speaker 1: believe them or not, a very important part of the

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Speaker 1: fabric of kind of the world. Um. You are obviously

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Speaker 1: taking a very similar approach and kind of an academic

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Speaker 1: way of discussing these things, UM with real gravitas. Um.

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Speaker 1: How do you tell people what you do, uh, without

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Speaker 1: sounding like without making them think that it's sort of

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Speaker 1: fringe or like some kind of like out there whack

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Speaker 1: job kind of you know, side project. My my my

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Speaker 1: wife still doesn't know how to tell people what to

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Speaker 1: do for a living. Um, because it's just like I

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Speaker 1: don't actually know. I think the best way to describe

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Speaker 1: it is, at the end of the day, I'm on

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Speaker 1: a journalist and I I do journalism sort of that's

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Speaker 1: focused a lot on like science and tech, and you know,

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Speaker 1: I do some national security defense reporting and whatever, and

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Speaker 1: UFOs kind of fits into that that world, especially today

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Speaker 1: after seen Um, you know, UFOs became a national security

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Speaker 1: issue or at UFOs became like a national defense topic

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Speaker 1: of conversation. Literally, like Congress has like meetings and open

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Speaker 1: uh public hearings about it, and there's a Pentagon task force.

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Speaker 1: So so UFOs kind of, after Seen, really got themselves

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Speaker 1: wedged up into the sort of reporting that I'm currently doing. Um.

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Speaker 1: So it's easy today to say like, oh, yeah, I'm

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Speaker 1: I'm like you know, I'm a journalist. I cover you know,

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Speaker 1: national security and defense sometimes tech and whatever. UFOs are

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Speaker 1: kind of part of that. But before Seen, it was

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Speaker 1: just like I was just really into writing about the

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Speaker 1: culture as you as you said the folklore of UFOs,

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Speaker 1: because UFOs very much are a folkloric idea. All conspiracy

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Speaker 1: theories are folkloric in nature, right, Um, they sort of

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Speaker 1: have to be. And and I guess I guess the

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Speaker 1: best way that I've kind of always talked about it

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Speaker 1: when people start asking me like what you do, I mean, Um,

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Speaker 1: these are stories. Right at the end of the day,

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Speaker 1: I'm sort of a collector of stories because humans have

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Speaker 1: been telling stories about weird ship for really really really

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Speaker 1: long time. Um, and we still do. Um. And the

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Speaker 1: big question that I want to answer as a journalist

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Speaker 1: maybe is is are we telling those stories because there's

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Speaker 1: something to them, something like objectively real out there that

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Speaker 1: is that is influencing the creation of these stories. Or

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Speaker 1: is it's something that's kind of just inherently human. Is

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Speaker 1: just something about us we are just genetically and and

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Speaker 1: sociologically driven to create stories, you know? Is that something

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Speaker 1: just kind of inherently built within us? So so you know,

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Speaker 1: I kind of vacillate between both of these ideas all

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Speaker 1: the time. You know, at times you look at some

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Speaker 1: UFO stuff or you know, paranormal stuff, you're just like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is just humans being humans, right, We're just making

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Speaker 1: shut up because that's how we how we function as

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Speaker 1: a society and have for you know, a hundred thousand years.

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Speaker 1: And then there's the other side where it's like, you know,

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Speaker 1: but you know, maybe something weird did happen and something

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Speaker 1: is influencing this story, um, some kind of anon less

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Speaker 1: event from the outside, and and it's yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'll never I'm not sure if you'll ever really know.

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Speaker 1: That's that's the problem. So, first off, when everything you're saying,

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Speaker 1: I felt like one of those people, uh in one

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Speaker 1: of those people in in a Pentecostal church. I was

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Speaker 1: slowly going mm mmmm mmm mmmm. Amen. Because, Uh, the

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Speaker 1: reason that I describe so many conspiratorial thoughts or theories

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Speaker 1: as modern folklore is because of those commonalities that you

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Speaker 1: find yourself vacillating between in your work as a reporter. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know how much of this is just humans using

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Speaker 1: pattern recognition and confirmation biased to craft a narrative. Why

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Speaker 1: do stories about of the Fay folk abducting children and

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Speaker 1: alien abductions have beat for beat the same story notes?

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Speaker 1: These are these are questions that, like you said, maybe

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Speaker 1: difficult to answer, but you have dived so deep into

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Speaker 1: attempting to at least explore those questions with people who

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Speaker 1: believe they do have the answer. And Uh, that's that's

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Speaker 1: gotta be. Um, that's gotta be a strange position at times,

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Speaker 1: because you've spoken with UM and you do speak with

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Speaker 1: in Alien State folks who are very convinced of specific things,

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Speaker 1: right even to the point where they might say, Hey,

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Speaker 1: this other person is dis info or this other person

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Speaker 1: is UM well intentioned but incorrect. But I have the

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Speaker 1: insight and I can tell you. And with this, I

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Speaker 1: want to introduce a recurring character in Alien State, Tom DeLong.

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Speaker 1: We've talked about Matt Nolan. I have spoken about Tom

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Speaker 1: DeLong and then to the Stars Academy, but you speak

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Speaker 1: directly with Tom in alien state, UM, and that I

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Speaker 1: think these are questions you and I are both dying

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Speaker 1: to ask. I'm not sure where to start. Well, this

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Speaker 1: is what I would say. Three months before September eleven,

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Speaker 1: we took off our pants and we jacked it and

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Speaker 1: we we loved it. But did we ever? Uh? And

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Speaker 1: that was you know, that was what Tom Geelong was

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Speaker 1: was known for. Right, Sorry, that was a reference to

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Speaker 1: an album. Everybody doesn't get it. Blink two times so

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Speaker 1: that we know. But but then in two thought you

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Speaker 1: mentioned MJ. Then, you know, sixteen years later, to have

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Speaker 1: that same guy that we were all rocking in, you know,

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Speaker 1: for me it was like my first vehicle, which was

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Speaker 1: a van. Sorry everyone, um. But now to have him

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Speaker 1: come out and like with a straight face, you know,

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Speaker 1: say like I've got this information and I'm going to

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Speaker 1: share it with you about a secret UFOs and in

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Speaker 1: a program and all this stuff and aliens like just

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Speaker 1: take us there to that moment and what occurred in

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Speaker 1: seventeen to really change the narrative and the discussion yeah, sure.

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Speaker 1: So so somewhere in twenty fift actually DeLong sixteen, DeLong

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Speaker 1: leaves Blink eighty two and he kind of goes on

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Speaker 1: his own um and and you know, I mean I

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Speaker 1: blink an e two was like my high school right,

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Speaker 1: like it was. It was played at every dance ever. Um. So,

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Speaker 1: so you know when it this happened, I was a

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Speaker 1: holy shit, like I can't believe, you know, Tom left

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Speaker 1: Blink um. And then there was like he starts kind

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Speaker 1: of popping up more frequently the UFO world and it's

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Speaker 1: kind of this un everyone kind of knew in the

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Speaker 1: UFO beat. Everyone kind of knew DeLong was into UFOs,

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Speaker 1: like this was this is not a secret. And because

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Speaker 1: he was at conferences, he'd shoop at UFO conferences often,

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Speaker 1: he'd show up at kind of other paranormal conferences and

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Speaker 1: hang on the back. And you know, there was this

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Speaker 1: kind of understanding that tommed along from liquin into was here,

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Speaker 1: but it was like not discussed very much. It was

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Speaker 1: just kind of kept down low. And then all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden hits on October he makes this big announcement

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Speaker 1: that he's starting this company, and it's like a live

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Speaker 1: video presentation there. They're like a public service company that

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Speaker 1: raising like I want to raise like fifty million dollars.

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Speaker 1: There's something shares and this idea stems of of you know,

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Speaker 1: I've connected, this is Tom. I've connected with a bunch

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Speaker 1: of government insiders as well as people from like defense contractors,

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Speaker 1: and we are going to do and create a sort

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Speaker 1: of a scientific research organization that will merge entertainment with

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Speaker 1: science to to like do UFO research and and reverse

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Speaker 1: The idea was to reverse engineer the physics and the

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Speaker 1: engineering to build our own like fucking spaceship um that

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Speaker 1: will be able to travel faster than light. And there

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Speaker 1: was like a mock up of it, and and he

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Speaker 1: brought these these people in and I mean it was like,

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Speaker 1: I mean, like your jaw like hit the floor. I

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Speaker 1: mean this sounded completely batshit crazy, and we a, it

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Speaker 1: sounds unbelievable. I mean it totally tracks a little bit.

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Speaker 1: But you're so, you're so, so this happens in October

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Speaker 1: and and people are like what the funk? And and

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Speaker 1: he has these people standing next to him on stage,

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Speaker 1: and then you know, journalists like kind of like looking

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Speaker 1: into who these people are, Like no, sure as ship.

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Speaker 1: That guy was like Defense secretary and sure as ship

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Speaker 1: that guy ran lockeed Martin skunk Works, like who, like

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Speaker 1: what is happening right? Like there was this two month

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Speaker 1: period of like scrambling to figure out how these people

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Speaker 1: were involved. Tom DeLong and his company were kind of

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Speaker 1: speaking to certain journalists and not others. There was very

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Speaker 1: much a sort of year the with us or against

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Speaker 1: us mentality. So then you need to start like again journalistically,

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Speaker 1: and all journalists, all journalists do this is you start

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out how do you get your sources

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Speaker 1: and how do you figure out how to win them

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Speaker 1: over to your side so that you can get the

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Speaker 1: whole story. And then like obviously there's always like that

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Speaker 1: potential like I haven't always tell the truth, and if

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Speaker 1: the truth is ugly, I may end up slitting your throat.

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Speaker 1: But it's the truth. I have to publish it. So

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Speaker 1: you have this moment of like back and forth for

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Speaker 1: two months and people are like, this is just Tom

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Speaker 1: DeLong has gone crazy, He's gone completely nut. He's gonna

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Speaker 1: build a spaceship. And then in December, like these pilot

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Speaker 1: videos dropped two months later from the Navy of like

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Speaker 1: fighter pilots encountering sort of these unknown objects in the sky,

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Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, everyone's like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: Like Tom DeLong was right the whole fucking time, right

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Speaker 1: like like we should have put our faith in like

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Speaker 1: Tom for president, right, Like that's kind of what happened, right,

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Speaker 1: Correct me if I'm wrong. The videos you're mentioning, is

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Speaker 1: that the tic tac video. Yeah, so so sort of

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Speaker 1: two videos dropped, and the third one was released a

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Speaker 1: few weeks later. I don't remember how long. It was,

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Speaker 1: like four weeks or so by we had two videos.

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Speaker 1: One was the tik tak video from two thousand and

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Speaker 1: four off the Pacific coast. The second one was called

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Speaker 1: the Gimbal video, which happened in sorry, in June off

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Speaker 1: the off of the coast of Florida. And and then

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Speaker 1: the third video was connected to the gimbal video. It

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Speaker 1: was the same thing, just like a different angle or

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Speaker 1: as like a day later, so it was related to

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Speaker 1: the same incident. And and these so these videos drop

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Speaker 1: and there's a New York Times article about it, and

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Speaker 1: it's like the New York Times just said that there's

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Speaker 1: a UFO program and there's pilot seeing UFOs and the

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Speaker 1: nation is not safe, and it's like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: what the hell? Um, And it started everyone off down

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Speaker 1: this journey of like trying to figure out what the

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Speaker 1: whole story was. UM. But as we do in the podcast,

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Speaker 1: you know, we start peeling away the layers of who

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Speaker 1: these people are, who they're talking to, how they're all

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Speaker 1: connected to one another, and what the story really is,

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Speaker 1: and all of a sudden you realize that this is

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Speaker 1: much more convoluted and complicated and it's not how it

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Speaker 1: seems on the surface, like like there's more going on

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Speaker 1: in the background that um is the stuff they don't

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Speaker 1: want you to know. Basically, thanks Ja, but you've you've

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Speaker 1: actually spent some time, you know, talking with Tom Um,

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Speaker 1: which is honestly something I think we would very much

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Speaker 1: like to do as well one day. But he's a

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Speaker 1: really thoughtful guy. I mean, you know, he definitely is

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Speaker 1: a smart dude. He he was very smart with his money. Um.

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Speaker 1: He left Blake what he too because he wanted to pursue,

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Speaker 1: you know, something completely different. I think he was just

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Speaker 1: tired of the limelight and only being known as this

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Speaker 1: kind of nasal singing like emo boy or mallpunk rather um,

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Speaker 1: and he has a lot to say. Can you talk

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Speaker 1: a little bit about what he's like as a person,

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Speaker 1: like the level with which he carries himself and the

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Speaker 1: passion that he kind of has behind these ideas. Tom's great, Like,

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Speaker 1: I'll be honest, straight up, he just he was. He

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Speaker 1: was fun to talk to. UM. He he is really

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Speaker 1: respectful and and he tries his best to answer the

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Speaker 1: questions he can. I think Tom is generally like a

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Speaker 1: smart guy. He's no fool. You know, he's significantly more

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Speaker 1: successful than I will ever be in my life. And

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Speaker 1: I agree with you, I think. I think for him,

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Speaker 1: he he got to a point in his life where

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Speaker 1: he should listen, I've made my money, I've made my wealth.

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Speaker 1: I don't I don't need to make any more money, right,

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Speaker 1: And he made the wise decision of realizing I'm going

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Speaker 1: to just pursue what I'm interested in and at the

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Speaker 1: end of the day, right, like when you're lying on

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Speaker 1: your deathbed, you never like lie there and say to yourself, Man,

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Speaker 1: I wish I made more money, Right, You wish for

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Speaker 1: like more times you could do what you want to do,

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Speaker 1: um and experience as much as you can. So so

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Speaker 1: I think that's what he did. And and and good

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Speaker 1: for him. Um and he started really at the end

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Speaker 1: of the day playing people. UM. He started to talk

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Speaker 1: to specific individuals within the United States government, and then

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Speaker 1: he would tell other individuals in the United States government

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Speaker 1: that he was talking to these people, and they knew

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Speaker 1: each other, so they like talk yeah I talked to yeah, okay.

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Speaker 1: And then suddenly he started basically doing good espionage, and

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Speaker 1: he started talking to people who are kind of connected

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Speaker 1: in this world, within the United States government or within

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Speaker 1: defense contractors, saying that like, oh he was named. He's

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Speaker 1: name dropping names, and all of a sudden, he's building

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Speaker 1: this web of influence around him until he's ready to say,

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Speaker 1: all right, let's do this. I'm starting a UFO company.

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Speaker 1: And they're like, oh yeah, if you're talking to this guy,

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Speaker 1: I'm in. And they just start like signing up like yeah,

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Speaker 1: in in, in, And Tom did what he did good

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Speaker 1: or ill, doesn't matter. He did because he loves it,

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Speaker 1: um and and and it's amazing. I think that's terrific.

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Speaker 1: I think where it's complicated is when you start, um

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Speaker 1: leading let's say the discourse. When you start like leading

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Speaker 1: the conversation about a specific topic, let's say, like the

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Speaker 1: UFO topic, you now don't need to be really honest

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Speaker 1: with yourself, like is this the voice of the person

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Speaker 1: who should be leading it or is this like me?

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Speaker 1: And there was a lot of pushback from the UFO people,

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Speaker 1: Like the UFO people were like, we don't want Tom

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Speaker 1: DeLong being like the UFO pope because of like the

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Speaker 1: other ship he sometimes says, which just sounds totally crazy,

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Speaker 1: and there was like drama and and so mad. Props

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Speaker 1: to Tom for being amazing, but you know, the UFO

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Speaker 1: people were very much like e galvanized in two parties

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Speaker 1: like pro Tom or against Tom, and there's like no

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Speaker 1: one in the middle, but terrific person. Yeah, that that

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Speaker 1: makes sense because you know, for many, many years, for decades,

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Speaker 1: there were people who were existing in the world of

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Speaker 1: ufology and they were perhaps um one could even say,

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Speaker 1: superstars in that field in their own right, but very

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Speaker 1: much not mainstream. So we can, I think we can

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Speaker 1: exercise the empathy to understand they feel like, hey, this

396
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Speaker 1: guy already has everything and now he's coming in and

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Speaker 1: we think he's a tourist who is now appointing himself president.

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Speaker 1: But I'm sure he doesn't see it that way. UM.

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Speaker 1: I do want to touch on something that that you mentioned.

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Speaker 1: The idea of disclosure is inextricably intertwined with the concept

401
00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:59,640
Speaker 1: of conspiracy. Right. The gist of the the legend here

402
00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:03,520
Speaker 1: is that these things are real and I explained them

403
00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:06,960
Speaker 1: as insert here. Depending on whom you're speaking with, the

404
00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:11,159
Speaker 1: government knows, and they want, for one reason or another

405
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Speaker 1: to hide it from the public. Uh. And you know

406
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Speaker 1: it's no secret that uh Tom DeLong at times has

407
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Speaker 1: stated that he does feel there is some sort of

408
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Speaker 1: cover up a foot and he is by no means

409
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Speaker 1: unique in that belief. Um. When you encounter people who

410
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Speaker 1: not only believe uh in you know, their particular version

411
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Speaker 1: of a UFO narrative, but also believe there is a

412
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Speaker 1: cover up of foot, Um, how how do you respond

413
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Speaker 1: to that? M And do you see do you hear

414
00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:53,199
Speaker 1: people um alleging the same conspiracy? And so what I

415
00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:56,800
Speaker 1: think this this now verges into sort of really like

416
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Speaker 1: dubious territory, right, because you have, Okay, when you're talking

417
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Speaker 1: to people and they believe there's a UFO cover up

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Speaker 1: of some sort, right, typically of the time it's like

419
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,760
Speaker 1: this just innocent belief they have um that that won't

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Speaker 1: really influence like their life or or or like like

421
00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:20,720
Speaker 1: popular discourse, right. Um. But then you have segments within

422
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Speaker 1: the UFO community who are very vocal, who hold a

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Speaker 1: lot of sway in the sense that they have a

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Speaker 1: lot of followers let's say through social media or on

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Speaker 1: YouTube or Facebook or whatever. Um, and they do kind

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Speaker 1: of hold court. As you said, they were sort of

427
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:37,040
Speaker 1: like the big players, the big actors within this world.

428
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:40,399
Speaker 1: And Tom DeLong kind of nicely wedged himself in there. Um.

429
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:42,560
Speaker 1: And and they hold sway let's say, over like a

430
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:45,240
Speaker 1: million YouTube subscribers, and they start saying there's a government

431
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,240
Speaker 1: cover up there, the government is lying to us about UFOs,

432
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:53,320
Speaker 1: there's a shadow government or a deep state that is

433
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:56,560
Speaker 1: purposefully misleading us um. And a lot of these narratives

434
00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,239
Speaker 1: will often then go into stuff to to discuss like

435
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,040
Speaker 1: their per purposefully hiding the UFOs from us because they

436
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 1: know that it's going to upset the oil industry, and

437
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:06,400
Speaker 1: the oil barons are the ones who run the government,

438
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:10,480
Speaker 1: and actually the big oil and big pharma are actually

439
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:12,640
Speaker 1: working together, and they don't want this to come out

440
00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:14,919
Speaker 1: because if the UFO technology does come out, well, it's

441
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:16,920
Speaker 1: gonna be life changing. There'll be no more poverty, there'll

442
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:20,000
Speaker 1: be no more scarcity. Right, everything's gonna be like like

443
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:24,040
Speaker 1: futuristic Star Trek level shit. Um, but what's stopping us

444
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,880
Speaker 1: is the deep state, Right, what's stopping us is this cabal.

445
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:31,160
Speaker 1: And then all of a sudden you start getting into

446
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:33,840
Speaker 1: really dubious like but you know there's people who are

447
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:38,720
Speaker 1: working against us, right, there's patriots, there's there's um uh,

448
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:41,240
Speaker 1: you know, Donald Trump has publicly said he would release

449
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 1: UFO information, whereas this presidential candidate is not. And then

450
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 1: it starts to verge into like actual conspiracist narratives to

451
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 1: the point where you have individuals who, for example, have

452
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:56,600
Speaker 1: committed heinous, tragic murders of people, and they had a

453
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,520
Speaker 1: UFO sticker and it was like, I believe in disclosure,

454
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,040
Speaker 1: strapped side of their van um and like, you know,

455
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 1: tell us the truth about aliens because that's part of

456
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:09,680
Speaker 1: their kind of um conspiratorial kind of ideological framework that

457
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,359
Speaker 1: UFOs are just another aspect of that. So so you

458
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:14,680
Speaker 1: can very easily draw connections between like let's say, the

459
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,399
Speaker 1: Q and non conspiracy and the UFO crowd. You can

460
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:20,719
Speaker 1: very easily draw lines between the anti vax community and

461
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,399
Speaker 1: the UFO crowd. You can very easily draw lines between

462
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:27,439
Speaker 1: sort of neo Nazi white supremacist movements and the UFO crowd.

463
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,360
Speaker 1: It's not like a big segment of it, but it's

464
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:33,919
Speaker 1: definitely an aspect of the subculture that that really percolates

465
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:37,920
Speaker 1: under the uh, under the surface that doesn't make CNN

466
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 1: or doesn't make funt well, Fox News. It doesn't make

467
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 1: CNN makes Fox News all the time, doesn't make um,

468
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 1: you know, other sort of mainstream headlines. But there very

469
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:51,199
Speaker 1: much is this kind of coalescing of conspiracy narratives, and

470
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 1: UFOs fit perfectly into it. Um. You know, we were

471
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,119
Speaker 1: I was tracking particular sort of UFO celebrity and he

472
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:01,680
Speaker 1: shows up on the rush in State Um the media

473
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 1: RT um all the time as a as a spokesperson

474
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,920
Speaker 1: talking about how the CIA killed his friends. Um, they're

475
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,960
Speaker 1: hiding secrets from the United States government or sorry, they're

476
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:12,960
Speaker 1: hiding secrets from the world rather than the Unitiates government.

477
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,679
Speaker 1: Is the CIA can't be trusted. And obviously RT loves

478
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:19,879
Speaker 1: this guy because he's literally doing their job for them, right.

479
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 1: He's literally he's an American who's creating disinformation for them

480
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:26,920
Speaker 1: without them having to try, and then they just put

481
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,200
Speaker 1: that on loop on YouTube, right, and it just it

482
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 1: shows up on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, wherever, TikTok, and all

483
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,200
Speaker 1: of a sudden, you know, like Russian state media is

484
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 1: is able to take shots at sort of the democratic

485
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 1: systems that have been created, um, and start kind of

486
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 1: peeling them down. And I mean, you know, January six happened.

487
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 1: I mean you know, I mean like it's it's it's

488
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:49,440
Speaker 1: literally you can see how these all intertwined together. Um,

489
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 1: And that's when things get scary for people, and especially

490
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 1: for me as a journalist. We'll pause here for a

491
00:26:55,320 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 1: word from our sponsor and be right back and we're

492
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 1: back with more from m J. So, m J, I'm

493
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:14,280
Speaker 1: thinking about what you're saying about this belief that there's, uh,

494
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,880
Speaker 1: there's some kind of unseen force within the government that's

495
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 1: like feeding disinformation, holding us back, and you know, all

496
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:23,879
Speaker 1: these things. I just want to relate it back to

497
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 1: something that did happen within the UFO community. I think

498
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,800
Speaker 1: it was in the eighties early eighties, a guy named

499
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,359
Speaker 1: Bill Moore. I'm sure you know some about this. We

500
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:36,119
Speaker 1: we just put it in our book that's coming out

501
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 1: in October, by the Way to First book. UM. But

502
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 1: it's the concept that there was disinformation being fed to

503
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 1: the UFO community at large by a single person who's

504
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:51,159
Speaker 1: working with a documentarian who you know, wanted to create

505
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:53,360
Speaker 1: media much in the same way that To the Stars

506
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 1: wants to be this entertainment company that is disseminating information,

507
00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,879
Speaker 1: but you know, hopefully real information where they're trying to

508
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 1: read truth, but they were being lied to. I just

509
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 1: I want to relate that back to our current scenario

510
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:07,720
Speaker 1: and situation with Two the Stars, like do you see

511
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 1: anything like that happening? Does it feel like anything like

512
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 1: that is happening? The Bill Moore situation is interesting and

513
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:15,199
Speaker 1: where this is all I think where a lot of

514
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:17,359
Speaker 1: these ideas came from of like that there is a

515
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,680
Speaker 1: sort of active disinformation project within the government. The inherent

516
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:24,160
Speaker 1: problem though, is is we can't really link the specific

517
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 1: Air Force UM agent to his superiors who told him

518
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:32,200
Speaker 1: to do that. For example, he makes the claim that

519
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 1: that's the case, but there's no documentation paperwork, There's there's

520
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 1: no way that that can be confirmed. Um And and

521
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 1: generally the consensus I think falls to this guy just

522
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 1: act alone. He was an Air Force UM investigator. He

523
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 1: was technically an intelligence officer for the U S. Air Force,

524
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 1: but he wasn't given the order by someone above him

525
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 1: to funk with this guy and and and funk with

526
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 1: the EVA community. That was not a standing thing for

527
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 1: him to do. He just did it UM for whatever reasons.

528
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 1: And it could be a bunch, whether it's financial or

529
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 1: glory or fame or just have fun whatever. So so

530
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 1: the whole Bill Moore thing is interesting, but what it's

531
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 1: really done is it's laid this kind of interesting patchwork

532
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 1: and kind of seeded the ground for now that Tom

533
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 1: DeLong has stepped out and said in seen, here's all

534
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 1: of these people from the US government that I have

535
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:32,120
Speaker 1: a lot of people, especially the the UFO group that

536
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 1: was the celebrity prior to Tom DeLong really came out

537
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 1: and said, listen, this is all disinformation. We've been here before,

538
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 1: guys like like like lu Alesondo and Chris mel and

539
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 1: all these guys, they're all disinformation agents sent by the

540
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 1: government because you know, Bill Moore happened, UM and Richard

541
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 1: Doughty happened, and that that's a thing in the past

542
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 1: that we should be learning from Meanwhile, I think, you know,

543
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,720
Speaker 1: there's no real evidence to indicate that lu Alesondo was

544
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 1: given the order to create misinformation or disinformation or to

545
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 1: do counterintelligence work within the folk community. There's no standing

546
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 1: order for Chris Mellon to do. Like, there's just that

547
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 1: doesn't exist. There's no way to connect those dots back, um,

548
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 1: because you can't find them. There's no one who's come

549
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 1: forward to said that's the case. Um. I think rather

550
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 1: what's happening is and the reason why the show is

551
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 1: literally called alien State is because I think within the

552
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 1: government you have individuals who are really into this stuff,

553
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 1: and they sort of form a little alien state inside

554
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 1: the larger context of the government, and they are interested

555
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 1: in this topic. So they are going to work themselves

556
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 1: to push this topic out into the mainstream as best

557
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 1: they can. Um. It's the same way you have um,

558
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 1: right wing kind of Christian fundamentalist individuals within the US

559
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 1: government who are pushing a Christian um kind of you know,

560
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 1: right wing ideology onto the American public because that's what

561
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 1: they personally believe. Um. You know, it's it's the same

562
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 1: idea that the difference is that obviously the right wing

563
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 1: Christian fundamentalism thing is is like taking a lot more

564
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 1: root compared to like the alien state, but I think

565
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 1: it's the same concept. Um. I think lou Elizondo kind

566
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 1: of just did said what he said he did. He

567
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 1: kind of just left and was like, fuck this ship.

568
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 1: I believe in UFOs and aliens. I'm going to make

569
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 1: this a big deal. Chris Mellen kind of did the

570
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 1: same thing, and I think Jim some event kind of

571
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 1: did the same thing. And Tom DeLong kind of brought

572
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 1: them all together because he was able to connect those

573
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 1: dots and and did it. Um. There is no like conspiracy.

574
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 1: It's just these people all were like, let's just make

575
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 1: this a big fucking deal and go, And that's what

576
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 1: they did. Um, and here we are today. Yeah. You know,

577
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 1: I love that analogy because I think there's often a

578
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 1: a tendency in the public to think of a government

579
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 1: as a monolithic power structure instead of groups of people

580
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 1: who often disagree and have their own, you know, agendas

581
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 1: or the things they want their desires. M J twelve

582
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 1: is incredibly interesting to me. Majestic twelve. You're m J one.

583
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 1: We're talking about Yeah, yeah, you're g m J g MG. Yeah, sorry,

584
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,720
Speaker 1: Mary Jane, you've got spider Man. You can just coast

585
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 1: on that. So what what's fascinating about this is that

586
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 1: it creates a UM, the concept of a monolithic government,

587
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 1: right instead of a bunch of people just sort of

588
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 1: trying to look like they know what they're doing, which

589
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:39,960
Speaker 1: is the human condition. A monolithic government combined with this UM,

590
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 1: this beautiful framework that says anyone I disagree with in

591
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 1: the UFO sphere is therefore a disinformation agent. They're not

592
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 1: just wrong, they're purposely wrong. And you must listen to

593
00:32:56,440 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 1: me to learn the truth. That seems like some thing

594
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 1: that has bedeviled this field for UM for quite some time,

595
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 1: I would think, even before UH Majestic twelve and the

596
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:17,480
Speaker 1: Bill Moore debacle. But I'm I'm interested in the idea

597
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 1: of competing views or contradictory views among the people that

598
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 1: you have spoken with and encountered, not just not just

599
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 1: an alien state, but in your work in vice UM.

600
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 1: Could you talk a little bit about the the discord

601
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 1: not servers, but like the discord UH that you find

602
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 1: in in the community, And could you tell us a

603
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:50,920
Speaker 1: little bit about UM the people who are generally seen

604
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 1: as quote unquote disinfo agents and the people who are

605
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 1: generally seen as legit is there is there a number

606
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 1: one bad person? Is there a number one person? Well, listen,

607
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 1: I mean you just that that is like the whole

608
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 1: Volk community, so so so you know, I think I

609
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:09,719
Speaker 1: think it depends on who side you're on. This is

610
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 1: why I think uphology will never become a scientific field

611
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 1: or a scientific um sort of study. And the key

612
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 1: reason is because you followed itself doesn't agree to a

613
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:25,879
Speaker 1: certain term of like factual like baseline data, right um,

614
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 1: Because uthology is probably primarily kind of fractured and always

615
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 1: has been and always will be into different sort of

616
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,279
Speaker 1: sects and schools and frames of thought. It's aliens or

617
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 1: it's interdimensional beings or it's um time traveling humans or

618
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 1: government secrets or whatever, and you have this fracturing. So

619
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:46,799
Speaker 1: so it's very difficult for different individuals within the EU

620
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 1: folk community at times, so sort of engage in sort

621
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 1: of good conversation because then it becomes a fight of

622
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 1: of what beliefs you have. Um. So that's sort of

623
00:34:55,680 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 1: number one. So with that in mind, right, um, you

624
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 1: autom I can give an example when Luis Alazando first

625
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:06,319
Speaker 1: went public and Chris Mellon and the rest of them.

626
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 1: With the Tom DeLong, you had an immediate gut reaction

627
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:13,359
Speaker 1: within certain elements of THEO community um because it was like,

628
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 1: hold on a second, this guy who's a counter intelligence

629
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:22,640
Speaker 1: officer whose job has literally been for decades to um

630
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:25,399
Speaker 1: lie to some people in order to get the truth

631
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 1: out of them and then use that truth to to

632
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,279
Speaker 1: like at times do sort of things that you know,

633
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,359
Speaker 1: the US government has done that maybe it ought not

634
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 1: to be proud of, but you know, is a thing

635
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,879
Speaker 1: so so automatical. People are like, holy shit, like why

636
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 1: are we Why are we trusting him? Why are we

637
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 1: putting all our our faith in this guy from the government,

638
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 1: this counter intelligence agent. And then you had the people

639
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:49,040
Speaker 1: on the other side being like, well, no, no, like

640
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 1: he's he's on our side now right, he's he's gone

641
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:54,920
Speaker 1: rogue and he's a whistle blower and he's with us,

642
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 1: and he's here to tell us the truth about UFOs

643
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 1: UM And then like you have him later saying you

644
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 1: know this department I worked for was engaged in a

645
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 1: cover up about UFOs. Don't trust them. And then people

646
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 1: like see, like he just said his own department you

647
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:10,800
Speaker 1: can't trust it. And then now that department has a

648
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 1: new UFO task force, and then the same people on

649
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 1: the other or the other people on the other side

650
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 1: of like, but they have a task force and they're

651
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 1: gonna be investigating UFOs and that's amazing, and they're gonna

652
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:21,719
Speaker 1: have money and big funding and and but it's never

653
00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:24,359
Speaker 1: gonna become public because I'll be classified, like and then

654
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 1: the people like, see it's people being classified now. Now

655
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:28,359
Speaker 1: we're never gonna get the information. It's all gonna get

656
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:31,440
Speaker 1: locked down. We're basically fucked. UFOs is over. Everyone go

657
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 1: study Bigfoot now, Like you have this back and forth

658
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 1: all the time. And then oh my gosh, you guys,

659
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,839
Speaker 1: I'm going full I'm going full Canadian here. Okay, um,

660
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 1: we're at the Timmy's now talking over double double Um.

661
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 1: You then have the other people who are saying, oh, no,

662
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:48,399
Speaker 1: the aliens have been here all the time. In fact,

663
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 1: they're communicating with us and me right now. And if

664
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:53,359
Speaker 1: we sit and meditate, or if we channel, or if

665
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:55,279
Speaker 1: we do whatever, the aliens are gonna come through and

666
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 1: they'll appear for us and they'll blink lights at us.

667
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 1: We don't need Alesando and the governant people to help us.

668
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:04,320
Speaker 1: Their liars, they're just trying to, you know, blow up Russia.

669
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:08,880
Speaker 1: Our plan is to engage in peaceful contact with like

670
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 1: the Galactic Federation, and and I mean it's it's I mean,

671
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:13,960
Speaker 1: it becomes preposterous after that. And I mean it was

672
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 1: preposterous well before, but it was you know, we're really

673
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:21,359
Speaker 1: going down the rabbit hole. And these factions fight each

674
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 1: other constantly, and you know, Louis Alisando has said on

675
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 1: his Twitter before that like, don't trust these people. They're

676
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:30,760
Speaker 1: engaged in disinformation. They're crooks, they're just trying to steal

677
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 1: your money. They're basically a cult. And these people on

678
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 1: the side, I said, don't trust Louis Alisando. This is

679
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:38,160
Speaker 1: what he did in his past. This is who he is.

680
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:41,240
Speaker 1: He's a disinformation guy for the government. Don't trust the government.

681
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:45,279
Speaker 1: And it just explodes into an argument of flame war

682
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 1: on Twitter. Of of then the armies of both of

683
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:52,759
Speaker 1: these groups fighting one another, trolling each other, and there

684
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 1: you are, we essentially have a credibility problem here, you

685
00:37:56,080 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 1: know what I mean? Right, well, well that's exactly that's

686
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 1: the crux of of why you say this could never

687
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:06,839
Speaker 1: really truly be a science because so much of it

688
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,880
Speaker 1: is based in belief. Like it's not all based on

689
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:12,800
Speaker 1: empirical evidence. So much of it is based on belief.

690
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 1: Not only belief in the great beyond and and and

691
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 1: things that we will never be able to maybe fully

692
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:24,799
Speaker 1: experience or touch or see, but belief in who to believe. Yeah, right,

693
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:26,480
Speaker 1: and just like you guys said earlier, right, like like

694
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 1: belief that there is a conspiracy and belief that there's

695
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 1: a cover up either the aliens are covering up or

696
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 1: the government's covering it up. Um And like you mentioned,

697
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 1: like the government is like one giant, monolithic structure when

698
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:40,560
Speaker 1: when really isn't. There's like seventeen or eighteen intelligence agencies

699
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:44,440
Speaker 1: within the United States government, all working for different bosses,

700
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:48,400
Speaker 1: all functioning other different branches or other under various branches

701
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:51,719
Speaker 1: of the military of military. I mean, they don't like

702
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 1: each other generally, they don't work together half the time. Um.

703
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 1: And And it's like, how could you possibly think that

704
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:01,360
Speaker 1: this is all unified? I mean, look at the United States,

705
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:04,759
Speaker 1: it's fractured beyond belief. If the government was monolithic, it

706
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 1: wouldn't be so like divided all the time. Um. It's

707
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 1: because as you say, it's human nature, right. People want

708
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 1: to think they have a handle on it um and

709
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:16,120
Speaker 1: and really we don't. It's pandemonium. I gotta tell you

710
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:19,319
Speaker 1: I had that reaction. I think it's episode one of

711
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:23,120
Speaker 1: Alien State where sim Evan comes in Jim Simmovan or

712
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 1: maybe six. I'm sorry, I can't remember exactly which episode.

713
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 1: There's an episode of Alien State where you introduced Jim

714
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 1: Simmovan and I had that initial reaction really thinking about

715
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:37,759
Speaker 1: him and his role right or his like what was

716
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:40,239
Speaker 1: it like forty years or something he worked as a

717
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 1: CIA asset and he comes in. He's saying, oh, I

718
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 1: read this book that Tom DeLong was a part of

719
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:50,399
Speaker 1: about secret Machines, and I was like, oh man, he's

720
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 1: got a bunch of stuff right, not everything, but some stuff,

721
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 1: but I can't tell you the parts that he got right.

722
00:39:55,920 --> 00:40:00,080
Speaker 1: And my instinct was like, Oh, this dude's gonna go

723
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,919
Speaker 1: in there and wreck everything. He's gonna like feed him disinformation.

724
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 1: And it's just my initial reaction to hearing that there's

725
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:09,280
Speaker 1: an x C I as set that's interested enough personally

726
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 1: in this stuff that he's going to insert himself into

727
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,760
Speaker 1: the situation. Jim some event is a beautiful, beautiful person,

728
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,160
Speaker 1: like he is like the nicest guy to let me right. Um,

729
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:19,840
Speaker 1: But yeah he was, and he wasn't as he was

730
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:22,759
Speaker 1: a c I A a human his intelligence officers here

731
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 1: and especially with human intelligence. So his job was to

732
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:27,839
Speaker 1: go into a place and be like, this guy over

733
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:31,280
Speaker 1: here has information we want or need. Um. So Jim's

734
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 1: job was to go in, become friends with the guy,

735
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:37,919
Speaker 1: and then basically turn that guy into an asset. Um.

736
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 1: So right, So his job is to go in, figure

737
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:43,040
Speaker 1: out what your weaknesses are, what your pressure points are,

738
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 1: or or how they can befriend you and then bring

739
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:49,880
Speaker 1: you into the inner circle of of Jim. And you know, listen,

740
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 1: you have information. We want to help you. We can

741
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:53,480
Speaker 1: get you out, we can pay you, we can you know,

742
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:55,840
Speaker 1: we can find that you're having an affair with somebody

743
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:57,279
Speaker 1: and we'll use that against you if we need to,

744
00:40:57,640 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 1: um whatever. But these becomes kind of very intimate relations

745
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 1: ships where where you now have somebody who typically works

746
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:05,920
Speaker 1: for foreign government and is now providing you information from

747
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:09,840
Speaker 1: that foreign government in exchange for X. Jim is a

748
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:11,839
Speaker 1: wonderful human. This is what he does for a living,

749
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 1: or what he did for a living right. So when

750
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:15,719
Speaker 1: he had to go suss Tom out, there's a bit

751
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:17,840
Speaker 1: of like the old CIA brain kicks and of like

752
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:20,200
Speaker 1: oh shit now. The other thing too, though, is with Jim,

753
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:23,960
Speaker 1: he's also admitted he has been a long time fan

754
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 1: and believer of not just UFOs but generally the esoteric

755
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:30,960
Speaker 1: and the occult um. He is very much into sort

756
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:34,440
Speaker 1: of the more sort of fringe topics. So when he

757
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:38,160
Speaker 1: says Tom got some stuff right, we really need to like,

758
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 1: is that stuff what? What? What is actually right? Like

759
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 1: objectively correct or is it just what Jim thinks is

760
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 1: right based upon the reading he's done and the people

761
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:52,880
Speaker 1: he's communicated with who also share similar beliefs with him,

762
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:55,920
Speaker 1: and and the big thing about the book Secret Machines

763
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:58,839
Speaker 1: was that there was a crash flying saucer alien ship.

764
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 1: The American government reverse engineered it and was able to

765
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 1: create a vehicle that a pilot could sit in and

766
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 1: fly without controls. You'd think it the aircraft would do it, right,

767
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:10,359
Speaker 1: And that's how the aliens fly around, right. They they

768
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:12,400
Speaker 1: don't have control panels. They just sit there and it's

769
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:15,440
Speaker 1: it's telepathy or remote viewing or clairvoyance. That was kind

770
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 1: of the that's his book. You know, I think Jim's

771
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,840
Speaker 1: under the impression that this technology exists, UM, that the

772
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:25,800
Speaker 1: United States government is developing this technology. Unfortunately, Jim's background

773
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:27,960
Speaker 1: of the CIA would not really give him access to

774
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 1: that information. Like he was on an aerospace guy, right,

775
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:33,080
Speaker 1: he was. He was a spy UM and he spought

776
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:35,879
Speaker 1: up spied on humans, not necessarily like aerospace. So again

777
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 1: you have to kind of wigh that in your assessment,

778
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:39,800
Speaker 1: like does Jim really know or is just Jim talking

779
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,279
Speaker 1: to people who say they know? And then why are

780
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:44,279
Speaker 1: those people saying they know these things? And how are

781
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:46,600
Speaker 1: they connected to this? And then again you start going

782
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 1: down the rabbit hole. You read too much. Stephen Greer

783
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 1: in the ce fives right there, you go, Yeah, hold

784
00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:58,719
Speaker 1: the phone, we're gonna take a quick break. We're gonna

785
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:00,920
Speaker 1: hear some words from our answers, and then we'll be

786
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 1: back with more of this incredible conversation with m J.

787
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:14,759
Speaker 1: And we've returned. I think for people who are more

788
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 1: on the outside, the the average person who sees that

789
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:24,840
Speaker 1: New York Times article or who reads UM, reads something

790
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:29,239
Speaker 1: on Reddit or what have you, uh, they they may

791
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 1: also make the same mistake that people make about insert

792
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 1: government here. They often it's easy to think of the

793
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:43,200
Speaker 1: world of UFOs as this monolithic thing largely in agreement

794
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:47,640
Speaker 1: with itself. That with that in mind, and I greatly

795
00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:51,000
Speaker 1: appreciate you pointing out that it is very much not

796
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:56,799
Speaker 1: um One thing. I would love to ask, what is

797
00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:02,200
Speaker 1: one of the strangest conversations that you have had in

798
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:05,440
Speaker 1: your time working in this field, Because you've been in

799
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:09,759
Speaker 1: the trenches. I'm sure you have some war stories. Okay,

800
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:12,239
Speaker 1: I'll give you sure, this is this is some of

801
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:14,440
Speaker 1: the Okay, there's a lot. Okay, well let me let

802
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:17,760
Speaker 1: me me with but there are a lot of weird stories.

803
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:20,880
Speaker 1: So what weird means depends on like who you are

804
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 1: as a person like and I've heard everything from I

805
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:27,960
Speaker 1: personally have been referred to and like directly informed to

806
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 1: my face by a person that I am a ci

807
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 1: A like operative trying to create skepticism within the UFL

808
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 1: world to undermine UM like right, and it's just like, well,

809
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 1: first of I'm Canadian, so no, Secondly, like my like

810
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 1: have you seen my home? And I wish I wish

811
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:52,239
Speaker 1: I was you know, um so, so you know, FMJ

812
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:54,520
Speaker 1: is just trying to enjoy in Italiana and some wedges

813
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 1: over there at Timmy's. That's right. Did you look up

814
00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:03,920
Speaker 1: the menu Timmy? So so, so you know, I've had

815
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 1: a lot of weird I've been called a reptilian alien before,

816
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:10,560
Speaker 1: like so, so, I have gone down the weirdest places

817
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:13,759
Speaker 1: the moment, I guess that that has really Let's the

818
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:16,520
Speaker 1: impacted me was. I was working on a docuseries with

819
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:20,520
Speaker 1: Vice land On on a UFO cult and and this

820
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 1: woman ran an online UFO cult that is really just

821
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:25,880
Speaker 1: shades of current cults that exist in the UFO world,

822
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 1: um and and um it basically everyone's reptilian. They clone

823
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:35,480
Speaker 1: each other. Long story short, but part of her financial

824
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:38,759
Speaker 1: system was she created this thing called Orgone. And I'm

825
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:41,000
Speaker 1: sure you guys have talked about Orgon before on the show,

826
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 1: which is for you guys everyone who doesn't know. It's

827
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:45,239
Speaker 1: sort of like, um, you take a bunch of like

828
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:48,400
Speaker 1: rocks and metal and shove it into a resin and

829
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:51,560
Speaker 1: you bake it and then it forms a pock usually

830
00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 1: and and allegedly the way this stuff is designed is

831
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 1: it keeps aliens, evil spirits, you insert any sort of

832
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 1: bad cult ship, keeps it away. Bus clouds. Yeah, yeah,

833
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 1: that's right. It often within chem trail conspiracy theories, right,

834
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 1: it breaks up the chemicals and stuff in in the

835
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 1: So you're so the cam trails don't don't affect you anyway.

836
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:14,799
Speaker 1: This woman, UM, this cult leader, she a lot of

837
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:17,840
Speaker 1: her money came from making and selling Orgon and in

838
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:20,279
Speaker 1: the show I was for this, For this documentary, I

839
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:22,200
Speaker 1: was hired as a consultant researcher. I was able to

840
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:24,479
Speaker 1: track down the woman she made it with. The cult

841
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:27,279
Speaker 1: leader was was was deceased, but the woman who made

842
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:29,759
Speaker 1: the organ was still alive. So so I was able

843
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:31,799
Speaker 1: to track her down and I reached out to her

844
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 1: as as a buyer. UM. I pretended to be somebody

845
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:39,680
Speaker 1: who was being like affected by these entities in my home.

846
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 1: I had been listening to this cult leaders sort of

847
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:45,759
Speaker 1: YouTube show and podcasts and I was under the impression

848
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:47,440
Speaker 1: I told this person that that this is what was

849
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 1: going on. Well, this this woman reached out contact me back,

850
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:52,759
Speaker 1: said this is what you need to do, and she

851
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:56,319
Speaker 1: basically started selling me Orgon as best she could, like

852
00:46:56,520 --> 00:47:00,680
Speaker 1: the pocks that the Orgon blaster machine, UM, appendance that

853
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:03,359
Speaker 1: my family could wear UM. And I remember having this

854
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:05,600
Speaker 1: weird moment of of I was pretending to be this

855
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:08,840
Speaker 1: buyer and and she was telling me about how my daughter,

856
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:11,560
Speaker 1: who was being impacted by the evil entities in our house,

857
00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:15,719
Speaker 1: needed to where it was a crucifix with like an

858
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:18,840
Speaker 1: Oregon piece inside it that this woman had made, and

859
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 1: she says this will keep her safe from the devil

860
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:23,200
Speaker 1: as well as the evil reptilian aliens that are in

861
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:26,280
Speaker 1: your home. And I had this fundamental moment like holy

862
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 1: sh it, like what if this woman actually finds out

863
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 1: who I am, where I live, what I'm doing. She

864
00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:33,239
Speaker 1: probably will now because she probably since this show, But

865
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 1: like what happens if she's able to track me down?

866
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:38,920
Speaker 1: And like how stable is this individual that they believe

867
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:41,879
Speaker 1: this or is this just a con? They're just doing

868
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:43,920
Speaker 1: it to make money and like sucking it puts my

869
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:46,880
Speaker 1: kids through college. Um, And I had this kind of

870
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 1: weird moment of like I was told that this is

871
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:50,400
Speaker 1: what I needed to do to prack my house from

872
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:53,200
Speaker 1: the evil aliens and and I'm I'm like soaking all

873
00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:55,080
Speaker 1: this in and I'm just like nodding, and I'm like, yeah, no,

874
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:57,440
Speaker 1: for sure, I agree, Um, what are you thinking about this?

875
00:47:57,480 --> 00:47:59,600
Speaker 1: And I'm trying to get the financial information with this

876
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:03,399
Speaker 1: cult leader on how how much money they made, right,

877
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:06,440
Speaker 1: And it was like it was in like it was

878
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:10,440
Speaker 1: nearing a hundred grand in Oregon sales that kept this

879
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:14,560
Speaker 1: cult leader funded to keep going. Um. Eventually we got there,

880
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:15,759
Speaker 1: but you had to I had to build trust with

881
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:18,439
Speaker 1: this individual to kind of get there. Um. And it

882
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:20,960
Speaker 1: was like diming out my wife and kids for like

883
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:24,480
Speaker 1: even reptilian aliens and and Oregon sales. Um. And that

884
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:27,279
Speaker 1: was my weirdest moment of like, oh shit, I'm I'm

885
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:29,520
Speaker 1: in it now and I have to like go to ground.

886
00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:31,719
Speaker 1: And I had like I I created a whole online

887
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:35,600
Speaker 1: profile like Facebook, email whatever, had a fake name and everything,

888
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:38,160
Speaker 1: and I just burned it all down after I was done. Um,

889
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:41,160
Speaker 1: but it was it was it was a spooky moment

890
00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:42,920
Speaker 1: of like this person was like, you tell me everything

891
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:45,680
Speaker 1: about the reptilians as you see. Well I didn't see reptiliens.

892
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:47,600
Speaker 1: I said, they're kind of like entities. Tell me about them.

893
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:50,560
Speaker 1: Are they shadows? Do they roam down your do they

894
00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:52,440
Speaker 1: visit you in your bedroom while you sleep? Or is

895
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:54,120
Speaker 1: it while you're awake? And it was like, um, and

896
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:56,319
Speaker 1: I'm just making stuff up as some going based upon

897
00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:58,120
Speaker 1: what I knew about this cult leader and just trying

898
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:00,560
Speaker 1: to fit it into this worldview. And it was like

899
00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:03,200
Speaker 1: on her end just eating it up right, It was like,

900
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:04,680
Speaker 1: tell me more, tell me more, Well, this is what

901
00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:06,440
Speaker 1: you need. This is the product you need, tell me more,

902
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:07,919
Speaker 1: tell me more. Oh, this is the product you need

903
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:10,440
Speaker 1: for that right, And I was like whole like, this

904
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 1: person is either really good at selling or they are

905
00:49:12,760 --> 00:49:17,279
Speaker 1: one they believe it outright, and both of those are scary, right, Like,

906
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:19,239
Speaker 1: both of those are really scary that you're willing to

907
00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:23,440
Speaker 1: sell bullshit to that extent or you believe it to

908
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:26,600
Speaker 1: that extent. I'm like, ah, So that was my weirdest

909
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 1: story of pretending to be an Orgon buyer um and

910
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:33,000
Speaker 1: and having to deal with his cult follower and then

911
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:36,919
Speaker 1: burning your persona after I vanished. I literally had to vanish. Yeah,

912
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 1: I respect your opset. That's pretty cool. So many people

913
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:41,719
Speaker 1: listen to the show. I mean, there are probably many

914
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:44,960
Speaker 1: believers out there who have something either from their past,

915
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:48,480
Speaker 1: from the culture, from you know, their family, something like

916
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:50,560
Speaker 1: an evil eye that you put up in your house

917
00:49:50,640 --> 00:49:52,919
Speaker 1: to keep away ward spirit, you know, ward away evil

918
00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:55,319
Speaker 1: spirits and things like that. It's just such the through

919
00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:58,640
Speaker 1: line of that kind of belief is so old it

920
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:00,560
Speaker 1: feels to me. And this is why PEND it feels

921
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:02,759
Speaker 1: like the Oregon thing is just kind of an evolution

922
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:05,799
Speaker 1: of some of those older ideas with the crucifix, right

923
00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:09,040
Speaker 1: like where it's going to protect you, some unknown force

924
00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:12,040
Speaker 1: or some known force that is unseen is going to

925
00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:14,640
Speaker 1: protect you. I really just I want to ask one

926
00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:17,960
Speaker 1: last question. I know we're running pretty late here, um,

927
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:23,000
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about all of these, Um, the UFO research

928
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:26,239
Speaker 1: is happening right now within the government, within these private organizations,

929
00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:29,919
Speaker 1: the stuff that you're reporting on, m J. And I'm

930
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:35,480
Speaker 1: imagining the SR Semini one and the B two bomber. Uh,

931
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:39,240
Speaker 1: these two huge pieces of secret tech that the United

932
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:43,400
Speaker 1: States government paid contractors like Northrop Grumman to create, you know,

933
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:46,200
Speaker 1: in secret for as long as they needed to, and

934
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:48,680
Speaker 1: test them as long as they needed to until they're operational,

935
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:51,200
Speaker 1: and then even then keep them secret so that the

936
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:53,879
Speaker 1: enemy doesn't know the tech that we have and how

937
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:56,120
Speaker 1: advanced it is, and that our SR seventy one can

938
00:50:56,120 --> 00:50:59,480
Speaker 1: go eight tho feet in the air unlike any other

939
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:01,880
Speaker 1: craft that's operational right now, or the B two can

940
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:04,520
Speaker 1: fly over your country and nobody will even know it

941
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:07,359
Speaker 1: was there. Um. I'm just you know, if you think

942
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:11,759
Speaker 1: about that, what was that ben SR seventy one was sixties?

943
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:15,319
Speaker 1: I think it was like nineteen four or something like that. Um.

944
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:18,480
Speaker 1: And then the B two bomber, the stealth bomber, the

945
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:20,720
Speaker 1: one that looks like the big V in the area,

946
00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:25,279
Speaker 1: the cool one. I mean, that's I mean, that's like

947
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:29,440
Speaker 1: eighties nineties, right. I have to imagine with the way

948
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:32,880
Speaker 1: our technology has advanced from the phone I was using,

949
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:36,680
Speaker 1: uh in the eighties, to the phone that my you know,

950
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:40,160
Speaker 1: my parents were using in the sixties, to what could

951
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:42,360
Speaker 1: be flying around there right now that was created in

952
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:46,880
Speaker 1: skunk works. And I do wonder how much of this

953
00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:51,680
Speaker 1: current movement towards disclosure, towards at least even just the

954
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:54,480
Speaker 1: excitement in the in the popular mind, how much of

955
00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:57,200
Speaker 1: that is just really skunk works in the things they've

956
00:51:57,239 --> 00:52:00,799
Speaker 1: been creating since the nineties. Are and I mean, you

957
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:02,560
Speaker 1: know like that that's a that's a big theme, right,

958
00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:05,600
Speaker 1: Like are these just test craft that we're seeing right? Um?

959
00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:10,040
Speaker 1: Are these just sort of you know, misidentified vehicles that

960
00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:12,760
Speaker 1: that we're building or somebody else's building, like a foreign government.

961
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:16,440
Speaker 1: I mean, that's a massive, massive aspect of the UFO

962
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:19,040
Speaker 1: discourse that that's all we're really seeing. We're just seeing

963
00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:21,439
Speaker 1: test craft, because we know for a fact that test

964
00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:23,160
Speaker 1: craft were seen, Like we know for a for a

965
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:24,879
Speaker 1: fact that the SR seventy one was spotted a whole

966
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 1: bunch of times, and it was choked up to UFO

967
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:30,360
Speaker 1: citing um sending with the B two right and and

968
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:33,040
Speaker 1: and if somebody sees a test craft, the United States

969
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:34,399
Speaker 1: government isn't going to go out of their way and say,

970
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:36,000
Speaker 1: oh no, no no, listen, listen, it's just a secret plane work.

971
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:37,360
Speaker 1: And they just gonna be like, yeah, UFOs whatever, man

972
00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:38,640
Speaker 1: like I don't I don't give a ship. Sure, yeah,

973
00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:41,040
Speaker 1: you keep go ahead, Um, good to UFOs are great,

974
00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:43,319
Speaker 1: like go nuts, like, yeah you saw that. Um it's

975
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:45,480
Speaker 1: the same thing that happened at Roswell, right. Um. You

976
00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:49,320
Speaker 1: know the Roswell, New Mexico story was a downed um

977
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:51,960
Speaker 1: spy balloon that that the United States Air Force had

978
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:55,320
Speaker 1: no interest in exposing because it was being used to

979
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:58,879
Speaker 1: spy on Russian atomic weapons tests. Um. And it wasn't

980
00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:02,040
Speaker 1: exposed until any four, when the Air Force said, yeah,

981
00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:03,680
Speaker 1: this is what it was. Was a balloon basically, and

982
00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:05,520
Speaker 1: we can talk about it now because the technology is

983
00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:07,600
Speaker 1: so archaic it doesn't matter. We don't use them anymore,

984
00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:10,120
Speaker 1: but this is what what it was. Um during the

985
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:13,440
Speaker 1: you know, eighties and you know seventies and eighties, when

986
00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:16,160
Speaker 1: the Roswell story really became a big thing, there was

987
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:17,680
Speaker 1: no interest in the part of the Air Force to

988
00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:19,279
Speaker 1: like be like, no, I listen, guys, it was a balloon.

989
00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:21,160
Speaker 1: Like we're gonna tell you the truth. Like why, like

990
00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:24,520
Speaker 1: your opinion that it's a UFO or a crash doesn't

991
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:27,719
Speaker 1: really matter to us. Now in hindsight, like looking back

992
00:53:27,760 --> 00:53:30,760
Speaker 1: at it in a post Trump world, you know, maybe

993
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:32,680
Speaker 1: the government needs to be a bit more open because

994
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:34,560
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, what it's only doing

995
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:38,000
Speaker 1: this building conspiratorial narratives. And in the eighties and nineties,

996
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:42,480
Speaker 1: those conspiratorial narratives were kind of limited to very small communities.

997
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:46,000
Speaker 1: And then now we live in a world where anybody

998
00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:48,560
Speaker 1: can start a YouTube channel, anybody can have a massive

999
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:52,240
Speaker 1: Twitter account or a Reddit or whatever and start spinning

1000
00:53:52,239 --> 00:53:55,960
Speaker 1: these narratives, and all of a sudden, um that information

1001
00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:59,200
Speaker 1: spreads like wildfire. Um so, so I can see this

1002
00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:02,120
Speaker 1: kind of the government being reticent to engage with the

1003
00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:06,560
Speaker 1: UFO topic in any sort of serious way, creating problems

1004
00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:09,800
Speaker 1: that we're now dealing with where there's like literally pundits

1005
00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:13,480
Speaker 1: on mainstream news channels like Fox telling the American public,

1006
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:17,120
Speaker 1: don't trust your government because they're lying to you, trying

1007
00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:18,920
Speaker 1: to poison you, trying to murder you. Whatever. I mean

1008
00:54:19,239 --> 00:54:21,920
Speaker 1: that is that is a product of just like government

1009
00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:24,400
Speaker 1: just being like whatever, man um and now we're like,

1010
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:26,160
Speaker 1: we're dealing with the repercussions. I think of this kind

1011
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:28,720
Speaker 1: of conspiratorial world. We live in this division that exists.

1012
00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:33,480
Speaker 1: Um absolutely, But you listen, this is I'm a Canadian,

1013
00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:38,080
Speaker 1: So for me, I'm a card carrying like socialist liberal

1014
00:54:38,719 --> 00:54:45,880
Speaker 1: probe like healthcare, free healthcareah so, so I's not I

1015
00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:48,080
Speaker 1: appreciate that some listeners might not like my lack of

1016
00:54:48,239 --> 00:54:51,440
Speaker 1: right rightness, but it's okay, Well this this is uh.

1017
00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:56,840
Speaker 1: I think this is a valuable perspective because this gives

1018
00:54:57,120 --> 00:55:01,120
Speaker 1: some objectivity. Right. This is a perspect that comes from

1019
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:04,960
Speaker 1: someone who does not live in the United States but

1020
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:09,560
Speaker 1: clearly knows what's going on. And I think that um,

1021
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:13,200
Speaker 1: whatever people want to UM characterize it as you know,

1022
00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:15,960
Speaker 1: if you say it's at a remove or something like that,

1023
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:22,640
Speaker 1: then I would argue that further increases objectivity, and your

1024
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:27,600
Speaker 1: point about the government capital g government of any country,

1025
00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:35,000
Speaker 1: I argue stands true across the planet. Uh. Sometimes, yes,

1026
00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:39,720
Speaker 1: secrecy is a matter of national defense, but that argument

1027
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:43,759
Speaker 1: of the greater good becomes such a slippery slope. And

1028
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:47,120
Speaker 1: we say it all the time on the show. Speculation

1029
00:55:47,280 --> 00:55:53,120
Speaker 1: thrives in the absence of transparency, and sometimes, uh, at

1030
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:58,400
Speaker 1: least in our experience, UM, sometimes the most frequent actual

1031
00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:05,440
Speaker 1: conspiracy incompetent act or some mistake, and the conspiracy is

1032
00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:09,960
Speaker 1: trying to cover that up so as not to look incompetent.

1033
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:14,520
Speaker 1: And I'm just interested in would you agree with that?

1034
00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:17,160
Speaker 1: M J? Are we off base in that? You know?

1035
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:20,439
Speaker 1: I think, I think for the listeners of Alien State,

1036
00:56:20,840 --> 00:56:23,239
Speaker 1: who who potentially are still going to listen, I think

1037
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:24,759
Speaker 1: I think I don't want to I don't spell too much,

1038
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:27,000
Speaker 1: but I'll go here. I think as we start in

1039
00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:30,279
Speaker 1: the show to peel away the layers of UFO story

1040
00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:34,160
Speaker 1: and this government program, you start to kind of realize

1041
00:56:34,239 --> 00:56:36,879
Speaker 1: as those layers get peeled away that the reason why

1042
00:56:37,440 --> 00:56:41,040
Speaker 1: currently the Pentagon doesn't want to talk about UFOs or

1043
00:56:41,080 --> 00:56:45,719
Speaker 1: engage in the subject in a public way, UM, not

1044
00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:48,680
Speaker 1: through Congress, because Congress is engaged with How the Pentagon itself,

1045
00:56:48,680 --> 00:56:51,239
Speaker 1: as like an institution, doesn't want to engage in this

1046
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:56,080
Speaker 1: UM is because of embarrassment. Right as we start to

1047
00:56:56,120 --> 00:56:58,080
Speaker 1: peel the layers way in the show, you realize that

1048
00:56:58,120 --> 00:57:01,000
Speaker 1: this uf UFO study that was conducted by the US

1049
00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:06,440
Speaker 1: government UM dealt with some pretty far out things that

1050
00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:12,040
Speaker 1: in hindsight look ridiculous, and all of a sudden, the

1051
00:57:12,120 --> 00:57:16,000
Speaker 1: d i A has to figure out a way of saying, Okay,

1052
00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:18,160
Speaker 1: so we gave a whole bunch of money to a

1053
00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:20,440
Speaker 1: bunch of people who believe in what, and they did

1054
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:23,680
Speaker 1: what with the money, and we're accountable to the taxpayers

1055
00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:27,440
Speaker 1: for that money. Oh shit, Okay, listen, guys, shut it

1056
00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:29,720
Speaker 1: down no more. You have post this is insanity, and

1057
00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:32,160
Speaker 1: it's just like, lock this ship down as fast as

1058
00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:35,200
Speaker 1: we can UM. And it's not because there's a cover up.

1059
00:57:35,200 --> 00:57:38,520
Speaker 1: It's because you had guys in You were able to

1060
00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:43,520
Speaker 1: successfully convince the people within the d i A to

1061
00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:47,240
Speaker 1: spend money on this when in reality, like the money

1062
00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:52,120
Speaker 1: was spent on something totally different, totally way out there. Um.

1063
00:57:52,160 --> 00:57:55,120
Speaker 1: That that that was was like in no way connected

1064
00:57:55,160 --> 00:57:58,120
Speaker 1: to what they said they were gonna use the money for. Um.

1065
00:57:58,160 --> 00:58:01,280
Speaker 1: So so you have this this amazing ability to play

1066
00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:04,680
Speaker 1: fast and loose with with language and wording and and

1067
00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:08,280
Speaker 1: and phrasing of ideas to the point where the d

1068
00:58:08,400 --> 00:58:10,520
Speaker 1: i A turned around and said, yeah, here's here's money.

1069
00:58:10,520 --> 00:58:14,600
Speaker 1: Go uh. And then as that money was spent kind

1070
00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:17,720
Speaker 1: of realized, sorry, what did we pay for? And all

1071
00:58:17,760 --> 00:58:21,160
Speaker 1: of a sudden that realization of like oh shit, right,

1072
00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:26,640
Speaker 1: like there's goblins involved and werewolves and it's like, oh no, right,

1073
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:29,920
Speaker 1: and and that's it. Funding was kind Did they restart

1074
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:33,360
Speaker 1: the did they restart the Stargate program or something? I

1075
00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:35,480
Speaker 1: need to finish listening to Alien State? You do need

1076
00:58:35,520 --> 00:58:40,880
Speaker 1: to finish listening to um and anything about that? Yeah, yeah,

1077
00:58:40,920 --> 00:58:44,720
Speaker 1: And we can't we can't spoil too much of the show, folks.

1078
00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:49,800
Speaker 1: We are listening along with you. As you can tell,

1079
00:58:49,880 --> 00:58:53,320
Speaker 1: we are fans of Alien State. We don't say that lightly.

1080
00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:58,120
Speaker 1: We can't wait to get to the end of the show.

1081
00:58:58,360 --> 00:59:03,240
Speaker 1: Episodes are available now. I believe wherever people find podcast

1082
00:59:03,320 --> 00:59:05,600
Speaker 1: isn't that correct, m J. Yes, you can find it

1083
00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:10,560
Speaker 1: on Apple podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, Google Podcasts. If people use that,

1084
00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:12,840
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, and then just like anywhere else you can

1085
00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:15,480
Speaker 1: get a podcast, it's kicking around and where can people

1086
00:59:15,520 --> 00:59:18,840
Speaker 1: go to learn more about your work, not just with

1087
00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:23,000
Speaker 1: Alien State but in general. Yeah. So, um, I am

1088
00:59:23,600 --> 00:59:26,400
Speaker 1: a co founder of a news site called The Debrief

1089
00:59:26,560 --> 00:59:29,760
Speaker 1: www dot the debrief dot org where we cover sort

1090
00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:33,080
Speaker 1: of science technology I like to say, from the fringes,

1091
00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:35,760
Speaker 1: but not really, it's just sort of the outer peripheries

1092
00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:38,960
Speaker 1: of where we are scientifically. Um. We talk about defense

1093
00:59:38,960 --> 00:59:41,480
Speaker 1: and national security as well. So the Debrief is a

1094
00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:44,040
Speaker 1: great resource if you're into the UFO subject or any

1095
00:59:44,120 --> 00:59:47,320
Speaker 1: kind of science and tech subject, but not this, that's

1096
00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:50,760
Speaker 1: the stuff Wired isn't like bold enough to cover. Um.

1097
00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:54,280
Speaker 1: So so hopefully, uh, you know, you find me there

1098
00:59:54,320 --> 00:59:56,800
Speaker 1: at the Debrief dot org. You can find my personal

1099
00:59:56,840 --> 01:00:00,320
Speaker 1: website at m J Banis dot com or I'm on

1100
01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:04,080
Speaker 1: Twitter and the social media's um really just Twitter at

1101
01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:06,640
Speaker 1: m J Bania's um feel free to track me down.

1102
01:00:06,680 --> 01:00:08,600
Speaker 1: I want to hear your ghost stories, your big foot stories,

1103
01:00:08,600 --> 01:00:11,720
Speaker 1: you UFO stories, tell me the weird things. Um. I

1104
01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:15,160
Speaker 1: love it and MJ, you mentioned a very specific Viceland video.

1105
01:00:15,240 --> 01:00:17,360
Speaker 1: Do you know if that's still available on YouTube or

1106
01:00:17,920 --> 01:00:20,240
Speaker 1: if you if you go on YouTube. Yeah, I was

1107
01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:24,120
Speaker 1: involved in a docuseries called The Devil you Know, um,

1108
01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:27,960
Speaker 1: and it's on Viceland if you can get it. If

1109
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:30,360
Speaker 1: you don't live in a country that has Viceland, you

1110
01:00:30,360 --> 01:00:33,320
Speaker 1: can find it on YouTube. People have posted it online.

1111
01:00:33,360 --> 01:00:34,760
Speaker 1: So if you just type in the Devil you Know

1112
01:00:34,960 --> 01:00:37,840
Speaker 1: season two, um, it'll pop up. And it's about a

1113
01:00:37,840 --> 01:00:41,840
Speaker 1: cult leader named Sherry Shriner. Um. And and we do

1114
01:00:41,920 --> 01:00:47,160
Speaker 1: a six or eight episode, six episode deep dive into

1115
01:00:47,640 --> 01:00:50,160
Speaker 1: who this cult leader was. Um. And I'm in a

1116
01:00:50,160 --> 01:00:52,360
Speaker 1: couple episodes, which is fun. So yeah, you can find

1117
01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:55,000
Speaker 1: me there. I'm also like on History Channel. I'm kicking around, man,

1118
01:00:55,040 --> 01:00:59,680
Speaker 1: I'm all over the place. Man, Well, you've given us

1119
01:00:59,680 --> 01:01:02,440
Speaker 1: a lot of things to consume, so we're very excited

1120
01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:04,640
Speaker 1: about that. Thank you so much, MJ for hanging with us.

1121
01:01:05,120 --> 01:01:07,000
Speaker 1: Appreciate it. It's been my pleasure. This has been a

1122
01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:10,919
Speaker 1: lot of fun. What a wild ride puts Mr Toad

1123
01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:15,520
Speaker 1: to shame? There we go. Oh, I love the reference.

1124
01:01:15,560 --> 01:01:19,479
Speaker 1: So um off, Mike, folks, what what you didn't hear

1125
01:01:20,040 --> 01:01:24,600
Speaker 1: was a in depth conversation about moth Man, which is

1126
01:01:25,360 --> 01:01:29,480
Speaker 1: our palm Jay's favorite cryptid. Um. We might have to

1127
01:01:29,520 --> 01:01:31,880
Speaker 1: have him back on the show to talk cryptids. What

1128
01:01:31,880 --> 01:01:34,000
Speaker 1: do you guys think? Dude, I need to wear the

1129
01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:36,200
Speaker 1: shirt you got me way more often every time I

1130
01:01:36,240 --> 01:01:38,360
Speaker 1: wear it. I feel like people we talked to just

1131
01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:40,959
Speaker 1: get super excited about moth Man. I think it's because

1132
01:01:40,960 --> 01:01:43,600
Speaker 1: you look so good in the shirt. You're probably the

1133
01:01:43,600 --> 01:01:47,440
Speaker 1: best advertisement for Mothman that Mothman has ever had. I

1134
01:01:47,480 --> 01:01:50,320
Speaker 1: think they just see his booty in their minds when

1135
01:01:50,360 --> 01:01:52,280
Speaker 1: they like see the reference on my shirt. It's not

1136
01:01:52,360 --> 01:01:55,000
Speaker 1: just the booty, Fellas, it's the abs man. He doesn't

1137
01:01:55,040 --> 01:01:57,000
Speaker 1: only have a six pack, he has like a twelve pack.

1138
01:01:57,360 --> 01:02:00,720
Speaker 1: The dude is like the Masters of the Universe action figure.

1139
01:02:01,120 --> 01:02:03,920
Speaker 1: Just so, and we hope that you enjoyed this interview

1140
01:02:04,240 --> 01:02:09,600
Speaker 1: as much as whomever made that Mothman statue clearly enjoyed.

1141
01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:14,360
Speaker 1: Abs and and butts uh uh and he Matt to

1142
01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:16,720
Speaker 1: your point, noel uh. We are going to call it

1143
01:02:16,800 --> 01:02:19,920
Speaker 1: a day. We hope you tune in for upcoming episodes

1144
01:02:20,400 --> 01:02:24,440
Speaker 1: where we are going to explore the bleeding edge of

1145
01:02:24,600 --> 01:02:29,640
Speaker 1: so called artificial intelligence. As well as allegations of conspiracy

1146
01:02:29,800 --> 01:02:33,040
Speaker 1: and cover ups. In the meantime, we would love to

1147
01:02:33,200 --> 01:02:38,400
Speaker 1: hear from you. Do you have personal experience with UFOs, U,

1148
01:02:38,480 --> 01:02:43,360
Speaker 1: a P or just something strange in the sky reach out?

1149
01:02:43,560 --> 01:02:46,680
Speaker 1: Let us know. We try to be easy to find online.

1150
01:02:46,760 --> 01:02:49,600
Speaker 1: You can find us on Facebook, YouTube and Twitter at

1151
01:02:49,640 --> 01:02:53,120
Speaker 1: the handle Conspiracy Stuff on Instagram or Conspiracy Stuff Show.

1152
01:02:53,600 --> 01:02:55,600
Speaker 1: Let's just say you're not down with the the Internet

1153
01:02:55,720 --> 01:02:59,040
Speaker 1: at all. You can use the telephone analog rotary phone

1154
01:02:59,080 --> 01:03:03,400
Speaker 1: booth by giving us a telephone call. Yes, pick up

1155
01:03:03,440 --> 01:03:06,480
Speaker 1: the phone and call one eight three three st d

1156
01:03:06,960 --> 01:03:10,880
Speaker 1: w y t K. That is our number. You can

1157
01:03:10,960 --> 01:03:14,000
Speaker 1: leave a three minute voicemail when you call in. Please

1158
01:03:14,000 --> 01:03:16,200
Speaker 1: give yourself a cool nickname. We don't care what it is.

1159
01:03:16,240 --> 01:03:18,360
Speaker 1: We can't wait to hear what you choose. Let us

1160
01:03:18,360 --> 01:03:20,440
Speaker 1: know if we can use your name and voice on

1161
01:03:20,520 --> 01:03:23,200
Speaker 1: the air and then just have at it. Do whatever

1162
01:03:23,240 --> 01:03:25,360
Speaker 1: you'd like. We do ask that if you've got more

1163
01:03:25,400 --> 01:03:28,200
Speaker 1: to say than can fit in that three minute voicemail message,

1164
01:03:28,280 --> 01:03:31,280
Speaker 1: instead type it all out and send it to us.

1165
01:03:31,480 --> 01:03:53,680
Speaker 1: We are conspiracy at I Heart radio dot com. Stuff

1166
01:03:53,720 --> 01:03:55,600
Speaker 1: they don't want you to know is a production of

1167
01:03:55,680 --> 01:03:58,600
Speaker 1: i heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio,

1168
01:03:58,760 --> 01:04:01,640
Speaker 1: visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

1169
01:04:01,680 --> 01:04:03,000
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.