1 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:20,439 Speaker 1: Body bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. I've had the good 2 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: fortune over a number of years now to travel back 3 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 1: and forth to London, and every time I go to London, 4 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 1: I make it a point to visit the Tower of London. 5 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:40,920 Speaker 1: And for any number of reasons, I like to see, 6 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:46,600 Speaker 1: you know, I like to see the history that's there, 7 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 1: because oh my gosh, it's extensive. I like to see 8 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: the changing in the guards. I do like to see 9 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: the beef eaters as well, and I don't mean Jen, 10 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 1: it's you know, the guys that actually guard the Tower 11 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 1: of London. Many people don't realize that it's still a residence. 12 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 1: It's a royal residence, but you know, it's got a 13 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:12,679 Speaker 1: long history. And that's truly an understatement on my part. 14 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 1: I am no historian, but I am a fan of history. 15 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:18,320 Speaker 1: But one of the things that stands out there is 16 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: that when you make your way through their museum on 17 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 1: those grounds, you come across something that you didn't expect 18 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: to see, and that is an executioner's shopping block. It's 19 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 1: behind glass and it looks exactly like you think that 20 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 1: it would, large, big, very dark piece of wood, hand hewn, 21 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:46,759 Speaker 1: and it's kind of kind of a cupped out area 22 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 1: on the very top of it, where of course the 23 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: condemned would rest their heads, and then the person wielding 24 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: either an axe or sword, many times they brought in 25 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 1: swordsmen from France because they were apparently the best at this, 26 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 1: would proceed to lop that individual's head off there in 27 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 1: the courtyard at the Tower of London for everybody to see. 28 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 1: It went on for a long long time. Of course, 29 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 1: they don't have executions any longer and Great Britain, but 30 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 1: here in America we still do. And there's any number 31 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 1: of ways that the goals of executions can be reached methods, 32 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 1: if you will. Today, we're going to talk about a 33 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 1: recent execution in the state of Alabama that took place 34 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 1: on the twenty fifth of January by unique method nitrogen gas. 35 00:02:50,360 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Body Buys David. 36 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:07,639 Speaker 1: I was chatting with my wife about doing this episode today, 37 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 1: and she had suggested that I speak to the idea 38 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 1: of an experience that I had when I'm still a 39 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: death investigator, where I was having panic attacks all the 40 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:27,639 Speaker 1: time and it signaled the end of my career. I 41 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 1: thought I was always having a heart attack. And what 42 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 1: came along with us panic attacks, other than the crushing 43 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 1: chest paint that I had and no, I didn't have 44 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 1: a heart attack, was my inability to catch my breath. 45 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 1: And I often felt like the proverbial fish on the 46 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 1: dock out of water. You know, you know that there's air, 47 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 1: but yet you try to take it in, but you're 48 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 1: shallow breathing. And I always, you know, i'd get this 49 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:00,120 Speaker 1: idea of these gills, you know, kind of moving like 50 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 1: you see a fish on a deck. And when I 51 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 1: heard about this method that the State of Alabama was 52 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 1: going to employ relative to execution, it really it kind 53 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:15,119 Speaker 1: of stopped me for a moment and made me think 54 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 1: back to cases I've had as a death investigator, which 55 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:24,360 Speaker 1: we can get into, particularly those involving individuals that read 56 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 1: the book what's referred to as final exit. And for me, 57 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 1: the only thing I could think of was gasping for breath, right, 58 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 1: That's what it came down to. 59 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:36,479 Speaker 2: I got to tell you two things. One, I'm so 60 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 2: thankful that you talk about what you went through with 61 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 2: panic attacks, the PTSD, the things that you've shared on 62 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 2: the air, through the podcast, on TV, and in your 63 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 2: book because I think by admitting that as a public figure, 64 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 2: as somebody who is on TV, radio and everything else 65 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 2: every day, that you're giving hope and comfort to those 66 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 2: who are suffering and haven't admitted it yet. And I 67 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:09,919 Speaker 2: think that's something that is remarkable and I'm thankful that 68 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:12,159 Speaker 2: you do it. There are too many people suffering in 69 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 2: silence and don't know there's help. 70 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:18,360 Speaker 1: So yeah, there is truly help. You you can recover 71 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 1: from it. And interestingly enough, Dave, you know what my 72 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:24,360 Speaker 1: best therapy has been what you and I are doing 73 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 1: right now. 74 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:25,360 Speaker 2: Talking about it. 75 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: And I don't mean talking with a therapist, although I 76 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 1: went through all that, but when I can talk about 77 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:34,919 Speaker 1: what I did for a living, it's a purging, I 78 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,159 Speaker 1: think to a great degree. And plus it's educating and 79 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 1: people need to understand that you can bounce back from 80 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 1: these things. 81 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:41,920 Speaker 2: And I think it's important to know that because you 82 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 2: can back, you can bounce back from anything. It really 83 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 2: is a matter of it's a personal honesty with yourself 84 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 2: that you have an issue you've got to deal with, 85 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 2: get it out and get it out. And believe me, 86 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:59,040 Speaker 2: you will be amazed at how many people are ready 87 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 2: to say, Wow, me too. Or wow, let me just 88 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:04,839 Speaker 2: love on you, dude. Everything's going to be fine. And 89 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 2: then part two, of course, is nitrogen hypoxia. What in 90 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:11,720 Speaker 2: the world are we even talking about? Why did they 91 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:15,479 Speaker 2: try to No, back up a second, because my first 92 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:21,039 Speaker 2: question is I have limited sympathy for somebody who is 93 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 2: in this position. Okay, but I would think that there 94 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 2: would not be a guinea pig in the chair, you know, 95 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 2: that we would actually have tried this on but we haven't. 96 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 2: This is like, hey, I think this might work, Let's 97 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:37,040 Speaker 2: try it. He's a condemned man, let's go ahead. And 98 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 2: we tried it once before the other way, And you know, 99 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 2: I'm just a little confused in twenty twenty four that 100 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 2: we actually have a man who's been sentenced to death 101 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 2: and he's been in there long enough to be so 102 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 2: fat we couldn't even find a vein, and now we're 103 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:57,559 Speaker 2: going to have to try something that's never been tried 104 00:06:57,600 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 2: before to try to take his life. 105 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:02,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, isn't that interesting? Because you know they had, as 106 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: you had mentioned, they had previously attempted a lethal injection 107 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:09,239 Speaker 1: on this fellow, and they couldn't get the line started, 108 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:10,960 Speaker 1: you know, where they have to push the drugs, because 109 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 1: there's a series of drugs. It's a it's a lethal 110 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 1: cocktail that's that's a pushed most of the time, it's 111 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 1: something similar to phenobarbital that's gonna you know, put these 112 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 1: people into a very very deep coma and they're essentially 113 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 1: put into a position where they can stop their heart, 114 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 1: stop their brain activity. This is completely different methodology here, 115 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 1: though you're it's not depended upon putting in an IV line, 116 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 1: you know, the individual. If you're thinking about medical devices 117 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 1: for folks at home, you can think about an EKG. 118 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 1: The paths that they hook up to you. You know, 119 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 1: they put them on your chest and put them on 120 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: your legs and they're checking you know, they're checking r 121 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: They have a heart monitor that's hooked up. And here's 122 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 1: something else interesting for those of you that have been 123 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 1: in the hospital. Line don't know yet if they did this, 124 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 1: but there is actually if you've ever been in the 125 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 1: hospital and they put the thing on your finger that's 126 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 1: called a pulse ox it's actually it's actually measuring your 127 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 1: level of oxygen in your system. And that's the crux 128 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 1: of this whole thing, because with nitrogen hypoxia, what is 129 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 1: actually occurring is that they are replacing oxygen with nitrogen. 130 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 1: Even when we were young kids in first learning science 131 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:33,719 Speaker 1: in school, we learned about the various elements that are 132 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 1: out there that we breathe in and out every day. 133 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:40,440 Speaker 1: Nitrogen is a naturally occurring element in a gaseo state 134 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 1: that you do, in fact breed, and nitrogen by itself 135 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 1: is not going to kill you. However, if you absent 136 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 1: oxygen from the environment and make it purely nitrogen, that's 137 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: going to take your life. And I think that that's 138 00:08:56,440 --> 00:09:00,320 Speaker 1: what they were aiming towards here, But you settle lot. 139 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 1: You know, when you talked about never having tried it before. 140 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:06,080 Speaker 1: That the only thing I could really find in the literature. 141 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 1: First off, there have been people that have died as 142 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 1: a result of nitrogen hypoxia, but that data actually comes 143 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: from Oshia or similar organizations. We have on the job 144 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: events that occur, and veterinarians have apparently attempted to use 145 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 1: it as a form of euthanasia with animals. And here's 146 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 1: one of the disturbing things. They said, it works, it's 147 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 1: highly effective if you use it on hogs, but it 148 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 1: shows hang on, let me get the verbage right here. 149 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 1: They found that with other species, it caused them great distress. 150 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:48,439 Speaker 1: So that tells me that they've used it on multiple species, 151 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 1: probably dogs and cats, and that it created this kind 152 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:58,719 Speaker 1: of you know, anxiety or distress or whatever it was 153 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 1: when they started in a life in this glass. But 154 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:05,679 Speaker 1: can you correlate that with is there some kind of 155 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 1: predictability thing that you can apply to that in a 156 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: controlled environment where you're you've got actually a human subject. 157 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:12,839 Speaker 2: You got a feeling this is going to turn out 158 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 2: really ugly for the great State of Alabama. 159 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 1: Well, you know, here's the thing about there's two other 160 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 1: states that have adopted this method and haven't used it yet. 161 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 2: I feel like they're waiting for somebody else to do 162 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 2: it first for it to fail there so they cannot 163 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 2: use it. 164 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, you go first, watch, you know, and so I 165 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 1: think Oklahoma and Mississippi and they're, you know, they're they're 166 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 1: thinking about this, and that's why the. 167 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 2: Other states are sitting around like that serial commercial, Get 168 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 2: Mighty to do it. 169 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I know, precisely, and they're you know, they're 170 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 1: thinking what you know, oh gee whiz, you know, kind 171 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,439 Speaker 1: of snarky, what could go wrong? And yeah, the. 172 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 2: Worst that can happen is you're trying to kill somebody. 173 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 1: Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right, But you don't know 174 00:10:57,280 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 1: how it's going to play. And that's the important thing. 175 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:03,720 Speaker 1: Here's thing about it. Regardless of where you fall on 176 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 1: death penalty, it's important to understand. Let's say that you're 177 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 1: all for death penalty and that's okay. However, if you 178 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: take this path using nitrogen gas and it fails, are 179 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: really really is less than what you would consider a 180 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:30,720 Speaker 1: stellar outing, then that could compromise your ability in all 181 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 1: other areas or all other methodologies to use. You know, 182 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 1: what is acceptable. I think everybody has talked about the 183 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:41,839 Speaker 1: death penalty for so long being you know, it has 184 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 1: been used as a as a deterrent to crime. And 185 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:52,200 Speaker 1: there's an old image that I'm quite fond of from 186 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:57,560 Speaker 1: the Old West, and it is an image of a 187 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 1: public hanging and it's prior to the hanging and many 188 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: you can look this up and people can see this. 189 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 1: But it's really striking. And you know, Dave, when you 190 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:12,719 Speaker 1: look at it, you can see this western town they 191 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: have like their little square, and you see hundreds it's 192 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:19,560 Speaker 1: literally hundreds of people all milling about and there's a 193 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 1: gallows there, and you can see people standing on gallows. 194 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 1: You can't really make out who they are, but there 195 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 1: is one individual in the crowd, actually two. It was 196 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 1: apparently a father and his little boy that looked like 197 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 1: he was about six or seven. And the father had 198 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:43,720 Speaker 1: picked him up and this is like in the eighteen eighties, 199 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:47,479 Speaker 1: had picked him up, put him up on his shoulders, 200 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 1: and they were about fifteen rows deep away from the gallows. 201 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 1: And often when I look at that photo, I think 202 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 1: about the words that the father may have used, or 203 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 1: may have said to his son. Do you see that 204 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 1: man up there? Do you know what he did? Now 205 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 1: he has to pay the ultimate price, And at that 206 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 1: point in time, the little boy was faced with the 207 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:33,560 Speaker 1: reality of determinance. Whether you're the most godly person on 208 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 1: the face of the planet or the single most evil 209 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 1: individual that's ever walked the earth. We've all got story. 210 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:46,440 Speaker 1: We've all got story, and I guess I guess our 211 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 1: story would would have to be with our case today 212 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 1: is you know, how did how did Kennethy Jeene Smith 213 00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: wind up in the position where he is strapped to 214 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:02,320 Speaker 1: a any day and they're putting a face mask on 215 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:06,960 Speaker 1: him that is going to fill his lungs with nitrogen gas. 216 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 1: You know, we have to understand that, and I think 217 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:13,440 Speaker 1: more importantly, we have to understand who his victim was. 218 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 2: That's it, you know, right now, with his news, with 219 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 2: his name and the news over the last week, while 220 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 2: it's been discussed, it's been in the news several times 221 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 2: over the last few years over what he's gone down, 222 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 2: which it's an odd story in that. But the person 223 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 2: that's lost in all of this was a mother, potential grandmother. 224 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 2: Her name Elizabeth Stinnett. She was forty five years old 225 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 2: and her husband's pastor of the uh the church. They 226 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 2: lived in the parsonage, and this story begins with him 227 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 2: calling the police, my wife's been murdered. There's been a 228 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 2: home invasion. Send help quick, and he's freaking out so 229 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 2: loud that the second the danswers the phone doesn't even 230 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 2: understand what he's saying, and she hands it off to 231 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 2: Ronnie May. The reason the name Ronnie May means something 232 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 2: is that he was the investigator for Culbert County, Alabama, 233 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 2: who ends up taking the call ands calm down, you know, 234 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 2: tell me what's happening. And he is the investigator that 235 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 2: goes to the scene. It was Ronnie May who got 236 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 2: there and is talking to the pastor of the church. 237 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 2: It's his wife. His name's Charles Starrett is Stinnett, Rother. 238 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 2: Charles Stinnett says his wife's been murdered by a home invasion. 239 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 2: When the investigators get there, the scene doesn't look right. 240 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 2: They check for a pulse on Elizabeth, can't find one, 241 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 2: and they begin making notes. The paramedics arrive and they 242 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 2: find a pulse. The minute they find a pulse, and 243 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 2: again Ronnie May, the investigator, did check for a pulse 244 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 2: when he got there and said he couldn't feel one, 245 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 2: and so they began the investigation of the crime scene 246 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 2: with her body. They're waiting on paramedics. As soon as 247 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 2: they find the pulse, Joe, it looked like Charles Stennett 248 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 2: was going to fall out right then, and that was 249 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 2: a note the investigators made. Now she died later at 250 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 2: the hospital. She never recovered consciousness, but they began looking 251 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 2: at the scene. It looks stage to the investigators, so 252 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 2: they start looking into this fairly quickly. They bring Charles 253 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 2: Stennet in for an interview, and one thing leads to 254 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 2: another and they find out that he's been having an affair. 255 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 2: They find out that he bought in life insurance, increased 256 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 2: her life insurance coverage, and one thing led to another. 257 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 2: They actually had a call to their crime tip line, 258 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 2: you know, crime watchers, and that was a name that 259 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 2: came through that they threw out at him during one 260 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:41,840 Speaker 2: of their interviews with Charles Stennett. Hey do you know 261 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 2: this guy? And they said that Charles Stennett face turned 262 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 2: beat red and he left. He left the police office. 263 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 2: This is within a week. 264 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, because he wasn't under arrest to go. 265 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 2: They were just talking to him and that's why he 266 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 2: was able to leave. But he left freaking out with 267 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 2: a red face. They knew they hit him with that, 268 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 2: and by this time they kind of knew that he 269 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 2: was involved. They didn't know what a level he was involved, 270 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:08,200 Speaker 2: but Charles Stinnett left. The police goes to the family 271 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:12,120 Speaker 2: home because he told them to meet, and he confesses 272 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 2: to his family he's been having an affair and that 273 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 2: he was involved in their mother's death, and then he 274 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:19,880 Speaker 2: goes out to his old truck and shoots himself. Ronnie May, 275 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 2: the investigator who was there at the crime scene when 276 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:25,119 Speaker 2: he was called about Elizabeth Stennett and rode to the 277 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:27,960 Speaker 2: hospital with her, hoping she would utter something. Was there 278 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:31,119 Speaker 2: for Charles Stennett too, He rode with the paramedics, hoping 279 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 2: he would utter something. 280 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:32,959 Speaker 1: He didn't. 281 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 2: And so now we've got a husband and wife both 282 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:39,360 Speaker 2: dead and a stage crime scene. And they didn't think 283 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 2: Charles Stennett was the one who pulled the trigger. That well, 284 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 2: she wasn't shot. She was actually beaten to death. And 285 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 2: by the way, just to give you an idea how 286 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 2: this forty five year old woman was beaten, they said 287 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:54,199 Speaker 2: that she really fought. Ronnie May, the investigator, said she 288 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:58,399 Speaker 2: really fought hard, and they beat her. They choked her, 289 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 2: They used a fire pokery using the fireplace. I say 290 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 2: they because there were multiple people involved. It ended up 291 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:09,199 Speaker 2: being a murder for hire, the murder for hire of 292 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 2: Elizabeth Stennett by her pastor husband, Charles Stennett. He got 293 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 2: one of the guys that rented a house from him 294 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 2: and reached out. His name was Billy Gray Williams, and 295 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:23,159 Speaker 2: he offered Billy Gray Williams three grand to kill his wife. 296 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 2: Billy reached out to John Forrest Parker and Kenneth Eugene 297 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:31,400 Speaker 2: Smith and they all worked the deal out and staged 298 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 2: the scene. They took a BCR and a TV or 299 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 2: a stereo which they recovered police recovered it from their 300 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 2: houses and that's what happened. The bottom line is Billy 301 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 2: Gray Williams was convicted and sent us to life in 302 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:46,879 Speaker 2: prison without the possibility of parole. He died in prison 303 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:50,640 Speaker 2: November twenty twenty. This happened in March of nineteen eighty eight, 304 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 2: March eighteenth, nineteen eighty eight, and the man lived until 305 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 2: twenty twenty. John Forest Parker was sentenced to death and 306 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:04,120 Speaker 2: he was executed via lethal injection June twenty ten, So 307 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:07,400 Speaker 2: he got what twenty two years in prison before his death. 308 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, and at the time of the STAPIM, we're fourteen 309 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:15,920 Speaker 1: years down range from the initial execution that had taken 310 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 1: place associated with this poor woman's homicide. 311 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:22,119 Speaker 2: So why did it take so long for Kenneth Eugene Smith? 312 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 2: Why are we talking about him today in twenty twenty 313 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:26,679 Speaker 2: four He's just now been put to death by an 314 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 2: experimental means? 315 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, isn't it something you know? You have you have 316 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 1: this much time to kind of work things out and 317 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,439 Speaker 1: pursue this, and I know that he he had a 318 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: defense team. You know that kept appealing these sorts of things, 319 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:48,000 Speaker 1: and that's that's the way the process works. It's not 320 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 1: very streamlined. And and here they are. They're you know, 321 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 1: you wait all of this time, and you're going to 322 00:19:56,119 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 1: hang your your hopes on this this agent because that's 323 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: what it is that would lead to his death. And look, 324 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:09,639 Speaker 1: you know some of the initial reports are coming in 325 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 1: right now, and I really want to, I really want to. 326 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 1: And look, if it was videotape, we're never going to 327 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:17,200 Speaker 1: see that tape. That's not going to happen. 328 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 2: Don't they videotape most of these executions? 329 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:23,919 Speaker 1: I think that they probably do from a documentary standpoint 330 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 1: to document the event. 331 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 2: But we're going to do it, why don't they do 332 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 2: it in public? So you mentioned the story, I'm taking 333 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 2: his son to look at the crime. Right, let's see 334 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 2: the deterrent. I don't see. 335 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:36,479 Speaker 1: Yeah, it happens in a in a vacuum. Here. You know, 336 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 1: you're no one. It's not a it's not an appreciable event. 337 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,640 Speaker 1: If you're talking about this purely from a deterrent standpoint, 338 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 1: you're not going to be deterred from doing something bad 339 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:50,880 Speaker 1: if you don't bear witness to the consequences. It's counterintuitive 340 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 1: to me, it is at least, and I'm not saying 341 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:55,399 Speaker 1: that I want to look. I've seen enough death in 342 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,440 Speaker 1: my life. I'm not saying that I'm going to drag 343 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 1: my family down to the town square and watch this. 344 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 1: But how they limit this thing with a number of 345 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 1: people that can bear witness to it and these sorts 346 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 1: of things, I don't see how it is an effective 347 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:13,239 Speaker 1: to turn. And so this guy has been languishing on 348 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:15,920 Speaker 1: death row. We've been taking care of him, our tax 349 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:19,679 Speaker 1: dollars have for all of these years, and so it 350 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:22,879 Speaker 1: seems it seems as though that we've come to this 351 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 1: point where he has been killed with an experimental method. 352 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 1: And you know what I'm at least initially hearing at 353 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 1: the time of this conversation we're having Dave, is that 354 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 1: this execution lacked efficiency. I think that that's probably the 355 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 1: most gentle way I could put this. He's strapped to 356 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: a table, he strapped across a chest to ways feet 357 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 1: are tied down, and he apparently smiled, acknowledged his family 358 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 1: who he has a wife and a child that were 359 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 1: actually there present for the autopsy, including his spiritual advisor, 360 00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:00,439 Speaker 1: and then victims of this poor woman's family that's still remained, 361 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:02,399 Speaker 1: her son, who was a teenager by the way, at 362 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 1: the time of her her murder. They were there and 363 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:09,400 Speaker 1: then all of the authorities he apparently looked over, told 364 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:13,720 Speaker 1: him he loved them, his family, and he read a 365 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 1: statement which was rather lengthy. It evolved us stepping back 366 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 1: as human race, you know, the lack of humanity, those 367 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,119 Speaker 1: sorts of things. And then they put this this mask 368 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:31,679 Speaker 1: over him, which is kind of fascinating. The mechanism that 369 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 1: they're trying to employ, and this first time that's been done. 370 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 1: Just keep that in mind. And it sounds as though 371 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:43,480 Speaker 1: this mask is very similar to what firefighters use, you know, 372 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 1: it's one of these all encompassing masks. If people have 373 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,359 Speaker 1: ever seen a movie like Backdraft with the firefighters, and 374 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 1: they've got this thing that encompasses the entire face and 375 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:53,359 Speaker 1: you can see out of it. It's not like a 376 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 1: it's not like a mask that you commonly think were 377 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:00,480 Speaker 1: people an oxygen mask, or even a canyon that you 378 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 1: stick in your nose. This is an all encompassing mass 379 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:05,640 Speaker 1: that has to be sealed, because that's what they're trying 380 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:08,639 Speaker 1: to do. They're trying to infuse the air that he 381 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:13,399 Speaker 1: is breathing with pure nitrogen. And you know, it sounds 382 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 1: as though that it didn't go off quite as quickly 383 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:17,480 Speaker 1: as they thought it would. As a matter of fact, 384 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 1: I read one report Dave where they said that it 385 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 1: took close to twenty minutes for him to die. Which 386 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,199 Speaker 1: I know that there are those hearing this and listening 387 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 1: to this, and you're going to think, well, he suffered, 388 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 1: just like this poor woman suffered. Yeah, you're right, he 389 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 1: did suffer. But here's the problem. If you want to 390 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:44,680 Speaker 1: maintain the death penalty, there is a protection in the 391 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 1: US Constitution against cruel and unusual punishment, and so if 392 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,880 Speaker 1: there's even a perception that this was cruel and unusual, 393 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 1: now this methodology is taken off the table and you're 394 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 1: back to square one with drugs. So it's kind of 395 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:02,160 Speaker 1: a it's it's a catch twenty two. I think here, 396 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,640 Speaker 1: the state and everybody else involved in this is kind 397 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:09,160 Speaker 1: of in an interesting position because, trust me, this thing 398 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 1: is going to be examined and re examined over and 399 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 1: over again. I was working in Atlanta with the medical Examiner. 400 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 1: I had one of my old colleagues down in New 401 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:41,879 Speaker 1: Orleans who contacted me. He called me up one evening 402 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 1: while I was at work and he said, have you 403 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:47,120 Speaker 1: worked any final exit cases? And I was like, first off, 404 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,680 Speaker 1: what's a final exit case? And where are you? Asked 405 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 1: me this, and you know, I said, no, I haven't. 406 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:57,400 Speaker 1: What is that? And he said, well, there's a book 407 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: out called Final Exit and it's a it's essentially a 408 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 1: book that was written and published by all people. Hang 409 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 1: on to your hat. I believe the publisher was called 410 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 1: the Hemlock Society. So this book, Final Exit, which was 411 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:22,640 Speaker 1: actually written by a fellow named Derek Humphrey whose wife 412 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:28,680 Speaker 1: had died as a result of poisoning that he facilitated. 413 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 1: He aided her in this, all right. He prepared a drink, 414 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,600 Speaker 1: a tea I think, for her to take. She had 415 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:43,119 Speaker 1: horrible cancer, and she drank it. He didn't force her 416 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 1: to drink it, but he prepared the drink. And so 417 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 1: this is, you know, one of the things that got 418 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 1: this guy thinking about this idea of what he refers 419 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:57,200 Speaker 1: to a self deliverance. It's assistant suicide. And now assistant suicide, 420 00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 1: you know, is in a lot of places around the 421 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 1: and over in Europe as well, and with the publication 422 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,400 Speaker 1: of that book, we in the medical legal community had 423 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 1: any number of cases following that following the publication that 424 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 1: were associated with final exit methodologies. And in this book 425 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,120 Speaker 1: they actually laid out how to go about doing this. 426 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 1: And I'm telling you this because Humphrey himself went on 427 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 1: to tape videos of all things dave of how would 428 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 1: one go about painlessly bringing about your death? How shocked? 429 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 1: You know? These things were for a time up on YouTube. 430 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:45,400 Speaker 1: I don't know if they've taken them down. Who knows 431 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:52,119 Speaker 1: what YouTube does anyway, But his recommendation for people was 432 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 1: to use helium helium and he would actually acquire it 433 00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 1: through going to a party story and purchasing a canister 434 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:04,159 Speaker 1: of helium. Well what does that have in common with 435 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 1: our topic? And well, it's helium, just like nitrogen is 436 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 1: an inert gas, and so it doesn't have elements of 437 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,639 Speaker 1: toxicity to it. You got to think back, you know, 438 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:21,199 Speaker 1: years ago out in Cali, when they were still using 439 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:28,879 Speaker 1: the gas chamber, they would take potassium cyanide and drop 440 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:35,199 Speaker 1: it into sulphuric acid inside of the gas chamber and 441 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 1: the person be strapped in the chair. It was a 442 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 1: horrific death you know, it would fill up with you know, 443 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:45,160 Speaker 1: with the fumes from this stuff, and it was painful, noxious, 444 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:49,439 Speaker 1: burned the lungs, burned, the eyes, you'd have you know, 445 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 1: foaming from the mouth because of congestive failure, and it 446 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,119 Speaker 1: was quite quite horrible to see. And then it was 447 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 1: it's lethal for anybody that was around it as well, 448 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 1: so they were in this it's literally a chamber. And 449 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 1: but that's that's not what this is because this is 450 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:09,919 Speaker 1: not nitrogen is not toxic in that sense. Okay, it's not. 451 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:15,359 Speaker 1: It's not like cyanide. It's something completely different. It's merely 452 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:19,359 Speaker 1: oxygen replacement, just like you know, Humphreys had had written 453 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 1: about and demonstrated to the entire world utilizing helium, which 454 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 1: for many of us was quite shocking, you know, because 455 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 1: none of us had ever seen anybody go to these 456 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 1: links to go through great detail of telling how people 457 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 1: to do this. But here we are where we've literally 458 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:41,520 Speaker 1: we've literally wound up here where they're using nitrogen gas. 459 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:46,960 Speaker 1: That has been suggested actually for people that talk about 460 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 1: self deliverance. They've actually talked about this in Europe as 461 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 1: utilizing nitrogen gas because of the fact that it is 462 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 1: an inert gas. It's it's a peculiar time to be 463 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 1: in this environment and be in the world that we're in. 464 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 2: Right that day, I just keep thinking, Joe, and I've 465 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 2: never witnessed an execution, but I keep I'm thinking about 466 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 2: the victim, the victim's family. I'm I'm a hauled that 467 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:21,040 Speaker 2: this guy gets to make some lifelong statement after he 468 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 2: has spent decades on our dime, that he's been able 469 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:29,680 Speaker 2: to get so fat that we couldn't get a needle 470 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 2: in his arm. You know that we paid for this. 471 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:37,200 Speaker 2: Now the woman that he killed, that he got paid 472 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 2: for killing. He actually took money to take a life. 473 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 2: She died in nineteen eighty eight at the age of 474 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 2: forty five. This guy's been on death row pretty much 475 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 2: since then for the rest of his life, just waiting, 476 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 2: finding ways to mess with the system. You know, he 477 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 2: looks so happy with himself when they couldn't get the 478 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 2: needle in his arm. And there has been talked I 479 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 2: believe it was from a uh Stennet's son who said 480 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 2: that he dehydrated himself before the event so that they 481 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 2: couldn't get a needle in there is Is there any 482 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 2: truth to that? 483 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know there can be because what and look, 484 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 1: any of us can experience this. I don't know if 485 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 1: you've experienced, Dave, But and I'm not saying you dehydrated yourself, 486 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 1: but depended upon how hydrated you are, it can make 487 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 1: it easier or are more difficult, dependent upon circumstances to 488 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 1: find a vein essentially or vessel to put an IV in. 489 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 1: Have you ever been in that circumstance where they were 490 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 1: trying to put an IV in you and they were saying, 491 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 1: oh God, they got to do multiple sticks. There's there's 492 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 1: hardly too many things that are more painful that you 493 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:45,479 Speaker 1: have to go through. And God bless people that do it, 494 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 1: because I could. I couldn't do it, you know, even 495 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 1: even as much time as I spent in the autopsy room. 496 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 1: There's something about sticking a needle into somebody's arm and 497 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 1: seeing them, seeing them squirm, you know, while they're doing it. 498 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,960 Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, the level of hydration body can certainly 499 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 1: play into this idea. Now, whether or not he purposefully 500 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:08,960 Speaker 1: did that, that's certainly interesting, you know, And there have 501 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:13,080 Speaker 1: been other cases over time that you know, where they 502 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 1: have talked about this. I'm going to tell you something 503 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:19,600 Speaker 1: about myself that I don't know that I've ever shared 504 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:24,480 Speaker 1: with you regarding my career. But back in the mid nineties, 505 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:30,360 Speaker 1: I was assigned to the State Medical Examiner's Office for 506 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 1: Georgia as a liaison between my office in Atlanta and 507 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 1: the State Medical Examiner, because our office in Atlanta was 508 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 1: actually doing all of the autopsies for the state of Georgia, 509 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 1: so our doctors would rotate between the two locations, and 510 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,600 Speaker 1: the doctors when they got out to the State Medical 511 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 1: Examiner's Office, it was disorganized, they didn't have a lot 512 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:52,680 Speaker 1: of information, and I was going to be their point 513 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 1: of contact, and so I was reassigned there for I 514 00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 1: don't know about eighteen months and Dave. During that eighteen 515 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 1: month period, there were executions that took place in Georgia 516 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:11,600 Speaker 1: and I was actually I was actually present and participated 517 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 1: in to the autopsies of executed prisoners. 518 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 2: I thought an autopsy was to determine how somebody died. 519 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:21,959 Speaker 2: If you're watching them die based on a you know, 520 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 2: we're planning your death, we have decided this is the 521 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:28,280 Speaker 2: method we're going to use, and we're going to kill you, 522 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:30,560 Speaker 2: and then we do it and now you're dead. I 523 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:33,880 Speaker 2: would think that basically we could use I don't know it, 524 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 2: picked your book and crayons and figured that one out, 525 00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:38,480 Speaker 2: but you really actually have to do a full on 526 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 2: autopsy afterwards. 527 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:47,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think just full on. It's arguably the most 528 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:52,040 Speaker 1: thorough autopsy that is done period. I'm not going to 529 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:55,640 Speaker 1: go into all the detail because even for this show, 530 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 1: it could be a bit unpalatable I think for some people. 531 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:05,520 Speaker 1: But it is so detailed and so thorough. And the 532 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 1: reason for this is, first off, we only have five 533 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 1: classifications of death for manners of death, and an execution 534 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 1: is a homicide, okay, and I you know, look, that's 535 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:20,719 Speaker 1: the reality. And that's why I hate the word murder. 536 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,800 Speaker 1: Murder is such a lawyer's word. I hate it. It's theatrical. 537 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 1: I love the term homicide in my world because it's 538 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:33,320 Speaker 1: not judging the circumstances merely. All the term homicide means 539 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:38,719 Speaker 1: is death at the hand of another. So somebody, somebody 540 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:43,240 Speaker 1: in the death house has to press the button. They've 541 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,040 Speaker 1: committed a homicide. Now we don't know who that person is. 542 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 1: Any executor, any executioner, can you cut that in? Any 543 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: executioner that is out there for you know, forever, and ever, amen, 544 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,240 Speaker 1: when they swing their acts or they pull the handle 545 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 1: and drop the trap door, if they pull the trigger, 546 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:10,400 Speaker 1: they've committed a homicide. By law. That's the way we 547 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:13,680 Speaker 1: define it, all right, And so in this particula, it's 548 00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 1: not accidental, it's certainly not natural, it's not undetermined, okay, 549 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 1: and it's not suicide. It has to be a homicide. 550 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:25,279 Speaker 1: And so in most states, if you die as a 551 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,240 Speaker 1: result of a homicide, your body's going to be autopsy. 552 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 1: But in any case, and it doesn't matter if it's natural, 553 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:38,759 Speaker 1: when an individual dies in the custody of the state, okay, 554 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:42,799 Speaker 1: there has to be an examination. And so that's what 555 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 1: compels them to actually do autopsies on executed prisoners. And 556 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:54,240 Speaker 1: David got to tell you, brother, the position that they're 557 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:56,799 Speaker 1: in right now, because all eyes are on it. I mean, 558 00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:00,160 Speaker 1: you watch that. I have to watch the news. I 559 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,200 Speaker 1: don't know anybody fans. I don't know anybody on the 560 00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:07,400 Speaker 1: face of the planet that watches news closer than my 561 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,920 Speaker 1: buddy Dave mac He sees it day in and day out. 562 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:13,279 Speaker 1: And I can tell you his algorithm has probably been 563 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,760 Speaker 1: lit up with stories about this execution for the last 564 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,600 Speaker 1: seventy two hours, I guess leading up to it, and 565 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:23,000 Speaker 1: when it happened, it all all the eyes of the 566 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:26,239 Speaker 1: world are on Alabama. And they're not just on It's 567 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:29,400 Speaker 1: not just the newspeople, and it's not just a citizenry. 568 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:33,319 Speaker 1: You've got two states out there, Mississippi and Oklahoma that 569 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:36,000 Speaker 1: are also watching this because they've got this on the 570 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:39,040 Speaker 1: books now, Dave. They're trying to figure out is this 571 00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:42,000 Speaker 1: territory we want to get off in with our prisoners? 572 00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:44,040 Speaker 1: Are we going to employ this methodology? 573 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:50,760 Speaker 2: The way you've explained, it sounds like we don't possess 574 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:54,560 Speaker 2: the ability to figure out the best way to kill 575 00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:59,440 Speaker 2: somebody that has been sentenced to death. We have the 576 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 2: firing that seems pretty good. We've got electrocution seems pretty good. 577 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,319 Speaker 2: Bring back the guillotine that seems pretty good. I'm just 578 00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:10,239 Speaker 2: thinking about all the ways that we are certain that 579 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:12,440 Speaker 2: somebody is going to die when we pull the trigger. 580 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,520 Speaker 2: And I don't know why we The firing squad has 581 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:17,359 Speaker 2: set up so far away, when you could just walk 582 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:18,920 Speaker 2: up behind them, and you know, I mean, there's so 583 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:22,839 Speaker 2: many things we could do that are as deliberate but 584 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:26,400 Speaker 2: more effective guaranteed, there's no reason that somebody should have 585 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 2: to squirm. 586 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:29,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. And this is another point that's very 587 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:34,480 Speaker 1: interesting about this. You know, we were talking about this idea. 588 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 1: I can't help but you know, it makes my mind 589 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:42,880 Speaker 1: go hey wire, this term self deliverance. It's assisted suicide 590 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,320 Speaker 1: is what it comes down to. But they it's interesting 591 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:49,960 Speaker 1: how people use verbiage to kind of soften things, you know, 592 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:52,359 Speaker 1: many times, or make it appear like it's something other 593 00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,200 Speaker 1: than what it is. Again, I'm a medical legal death investigator. 594 00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:59,560 Speaker 1: There's only five classifications of death you can rule, you know, 595 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:06,320 Speaker 1: are just of it? Well yeah, yeah, yah, sure, it's homicide, suicide, accidental, natural, 596 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:08,879 Speaker 1: and undetermined. That's our only choices. We don't have any 597 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:12,160 Speaker 1: other choices period in the medical legal community as to 598 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:14,040 Speaker 1: how we're going to classify death. And then you put 599 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:17,000 Speaker 1: the cause of death below that, and so you know, 600 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:18,759 Speaker 1: in this case, you know you're talking about it is 601 00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:21,880 Speaker 1: a homicide and it's homicide as a result of inhaling 602 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:26,880 Speaker 1: nitrogen gas. So you know, it's it's very simple, you 603 00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:29,200 Speaker 1: know when when you look at it from that perspective. 604 00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:33,640 Speaker 1: But yeah, we've had there are any number of methodologies 605 00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,759 Speaker 1: that are out there that have been employed and some yeah, 606 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:39,800 Speaker 1: it's brutal, but you know what, dude, death is brutal. 607 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:42,680 Speaker 1: And it seems as though that people want to make 608 00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:45,560 Speaker 1: this out to be as palatable for them as they 609 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,440 Speaker 1: possibly can. That's not the reality of life, and it's 610 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:53,879 Speaker 1: certainly not the reality of death. Death is unpalatable. It's repugnant. 611 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:56,440 Speaker 1: That's why we don't want people to kill other people. 612 00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,960 Speaker 1: My point I were really I got horribly off track there. 613 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:05,040 Speaker 1: But with the assisted suicide that can be classified, I 614 00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:08,200 Speaker 1: guess some of my friends in the medical community probably take, 615 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:12,720 Speaker 1: you know, take umbrage at me saying this, but it's 616 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:15,520 Speaker 1: it's almost like palliative care, where you've got somebody that 617 00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:20,520 Speaker 1: is in a condition that they're in an unrecoverable flat 618 00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:23,480 Speaker 1: spin physiologically, they're not going to recover from it, and 619 00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:27,160 Speaker 1: so you're providing comfort for them. And that's, I guess 620 00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:31,120 Speaker 1: to some people's way of thinking, that is comfort. That's 621 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:34,160 Speaker 1: executions are different because I think a lot of people 622 00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:37,040 Speaker 1: actually had two people say this to me, why didn't 623 00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:39,080 Speaker 1: they give him something like why didn't they shoot him 624 00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:41,279 Speaker 1: with a bulks of adavant or something, you know, to 625 00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:46,920 Speaker 1: knock down the anxiety and make him, you know, make 626 00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:50,560 Speaker 1: him more compliant, because we don't want to watch him 627 00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:53,359 Speaker 1: squirm on the table and that sort of thing. That's 628 00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:56,279 Speaker 1: not what executions are about. That's not And again it 629 00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:58,040 Speaker 1: goes back to this idea of deterrence. 630 00:38:58,320 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 2: We're showing it to anybody. 631 00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:01,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, you're not showing it to anybody. Well, the people 632 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,560 Speaker 1: in that little room witnessed it, and I don't know that. 633 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:06,759 Speaker 1: And there were people from the press corps that were there, 634 00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:10,360 Speaker 1: a select group. Then you had family from both sides, 635 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:13,760 Speaker 1: and then you had state authorities that were there. And 636 00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:17,799 Speaker 1: so are you making them feel uncomfortable by him see 637 00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:20,799 Speaker 1: by them bearing witness to this. Perhaps it's not the 638 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:26,440 Speaker 1: way that they would want to go. But it's court 639 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:29,880 Speaker 1: hands down, this idea of you know, you're going to die. 640 00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:33,920 Speaker 1: They sentence you to capital as a capital offense, and 641 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:36,480 Speaker 1: they sentence you to capital punishment, whatever methodology in that 642 00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:41,040 Speaker 1: state is. It's not their job to make it palatable 643 00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:44,600 Speaker 1: for the victim. And so that's why they're not given 644 00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:50,160 Speaker 1: they're not given some type of drug to knock down 645 00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:53,440 Speaker 1: their anxiety over this. And also it could be argued, 646 00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:55,759 Speaker 1: I guess some sharp lawyer would say, well, if you 647 00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:59,080 Speaker 1: did that, then you're going to impede their ability to 648 00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:03,000 Speaker 1: effectively communicate. And if there's some kind of big reveal 649 00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:04,560 Speaker 1: they have at the end, have you got them so 650 00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:06,719 Speaker 1: drugged up that they're they're not going to be able 651 00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:10,800 Speaker 1: to communicate effectively with counsel, with their minister, or whoever 652 00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:14,320 Speaker 1: it is. That's that's attached. It's a very complex situation. 653 00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:18,600 Speaker 1: After all, it seems like exactly after all these years 654 00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:24,440 Speaker 1: and and look decades, Okay, let's just go to decades, decades, centuries, 655 00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:30,200 Speaker 1: it seems like it seems like that maybe our ancestors 656 00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:35,080 Speaker 1: had it right relative to methodologies, because capital punishment has 657 00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:38,600 Speaker 1: always been around. It's always been around, and it seems 658 00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:43,160 Speaker 1: as though the more palatable we try to make it, 659 00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:50,239 Speaker 1: the less effective it is. I'm Josephcott Morgan and this 660 00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:51,880 Speaker 1: is body Backs.