Speaker 1: I'm just a book way fearing stranger traveling through this
Speaker 1: world below. There's no seedness danger in that bride word
Speaker 1: to which I go, Welcome to death, grief and other
Speaker 1: shit we don't discuss. I'm Kyle McMahon. The rush of
Speaker 1: the funeral was now over. Dad and I were back
Speaker 1: in the car, headed to Aunt Cathy's for the funeral reception.
Speaker 1: I always thought it was weird that you'd have a
Speaker 1: sort of sad party after a funeral. Some call it
Speaker 1: a you passed, Others call it a celebration of life.
Speaker 1: I call it weird, hard sad. At least for me.
Speaker 1: The last thing I feel like doing after burying a
Speaker 1: loved one at a funeral is going and talking to
Speaker 1: people about them while eating tiny sausages. For me, it's
Speaker 1: just a strange tradition, and I guess I get the
Speaker 1: point behind it. Funeral receptions are meant to allow loved
Speaker 1: ones to connect over the deceased, to tell stories and
Speaker 1: commemorate their life. It's just that for me, it's so
Speaker 1: very sad, especially when it's my own mom. After the reception,
Speaker 1: I went back home and got out of my dress
Speaker 1: pants and suit and into some comfortable sweats and a
Speaker 1: T shirt and laid in bed with blue to zone
Speaker 1: out to bad reality TV shows. Immediately a text from Michelle,
Speaker 1: who asked me if I wanted to come over, and
Speaker 1: although I really didn't want to leave my bubble, I
Speaker 1: figured I really should get out and do something, so
Speaker 1: I headed over there. I'm really lucky to have her,
Speaker 1: you see. Over the week or so that Mom had passed,
Speaker 1: I had so many people that had been reaching out
Speaker 1: to me. There were hundreds of texts and calls and
Speaker 1: voicemails and messages. I couldn't muster the will to pick
Speaker 1: up or to respond to most of them. And there
Speaker 1: was no rhyme or reason to who I picked up
Speaker 1: for or didn't, and it wasn't intentional. I was just
Speaker 1: overwhelmed and numb and lost. I was just going through
Speaker 1: the motions. At that point. I was still processing the
Speaker 1: newness of this, and I certainly didn't want to keep
Speaker 1: reliving it over and over and over telling people what
Speaker 1: had happened and how I was feeling. I just couldn't
Speaker 1: do it right then. I was surprised by a number
Speaker 1: of people's reactions, though some surprised me in a good way,
Speaker 1: while others surprised me in a different way. One friend,
Speaker 1: who had gone to the funeral I hadn't really heard
Speaker 1: from in the week prior. She eventually texted me to
Speaker 1: apologize for not being there like she should have. She said,
Speaker 1: I didn't know what to say, and I didn't want
Speaker 1: to upset you. I responded that you didn't have to
Speaker 1: say anything in particular, you could just start with HI.
Speaker 1: Her and I were always texting each other funny memes
Speaker 1: back and forth, so her absence over the last week
Speaker 1: or so had definitely been noticed. She said, I feel
Speaker 1: like you'd think it was insensitive to send you a
Speaker 1: meme when your mom has just passed, And I said,
Speaker 1: I totally get where you're coming from, but so you know,
Speaker 1: for the next person, I probably would have appreciated that
Speaker 1: moment of laughter. She apologized again and told me that
Speaker 1: if I needed anything, she would be there, and in reality,
Speaker 1: I knew that if I had reached out to her,
Speaker 1: she would be there. So many of my friends were
Speaker 1: my family, people that I work with. I'm very lucky
Speaker 1: to have a great support system, and that's a good
Speaker 1: thing to remind myself too. In order to be there
Speaker 1: for my loved ones during times when they lose someone
Speaker 1: that they love. Now that I have the experience of it,
Speaker 1: on the other side, I know, at least for me,
Speaker 1: that anyone could have texted or called or FaceTime like
Speaker 1: they always have. And if I couldn't muster the energy
Speaker 1: to pick up my phone at that moment, then I
Speaker 1: just wouldn't. And again, it was nothing personal to them.
Speaker 1: It could have been anybody. At that time. I had
Speaker 1: friends that really really rose to the occasion. People were
Speaker 1: dropping off food from myself, Elf and Dad. People were
Speaker 1: taking us to dinner, inviting us over. Things like that
Speaker 1: really helped. I mean, I didn't cook dinner on a
Speaker 1: good day, so I certainly wasn't even thinking about food
Speaker 1: during this time. My parents neighbors Wayning Diane, they had
Speaker 1: invited us over for dinner. Brandon had taken me out
Speaker 1: for dinner to talk if I wanted to talk or
Speaker 1: we could just eat, he said. My friend Tamika had
Speaker 1: dropped off a tray of food at my house. And
Speaker 1: it's funny because at the time that she had texted me,
Speaker 1: I just so happened to not pick up because I
Speaker 1: was in one of those moments and she texted and
Speaker 1: made me laugh. I don't care if you pick up
Speaker 1: or not. My ass is coming over and seeing you,
Speaker 1: And that made me laugh so much and know that
Speaker 1: I really am loved. My friend Courtney had texted me
Speaker 1: throughout the entire thing and just said I'm here for
Speaker 1: you if you need me, and so did Jeff and
Speaker 1: In and Luke. Even Mom's friends were dropping off food
Speaker 1: for Dad and myself. I saw one friend the day
Speaker 1: after the funeral by pure coincidence, a very very close
Speaker 1: friend who I had been there for through his own
Speaker 1: father's passing. In fact, i'd been there earlier that night
Speaker 1: watching a movie. We knew his father's time was coming soon,
Speaker 1: and eventually I wanted to give them some space to
Speaker 1: say their goodbye, so I headed home. Within thirty minutes,
Speaker 1: he had called me saying as Dad was gone. So
Speaker 1: I got back in the car and went over there
Speaker 1: just to be there for him and his family in
Speaker 1: whatever way I could. He didn't want to talk, he
Speaker 1: wasn't one of those people. He just wanted me there
Speaker 1: and we ended up falling asleep on the floor watching
Speaker 1: a movie. I was there for him in whatever capacity
Speaker 1: he needed, and for him that meant just being physically present,
Speaker 1: and so I was. And now I've run into him
Speaker 1: the day after my mom's funeral, where he wasn't there,
Speaker 1: and so I asked him, where were you for mom's funeral?
Speaker 1: He had been to my parents' house a million times,
Speaker 1: and my mom had done so much for him as
Speaker 1: his mom had done for me. He nonchalantly replied, I
Speaker 1: knew the church would be at capacity, so I figured
Speaker 1: other people should be there before me. And while anger
Speaker 1: and hurt fueled through my body, I could only reply
Speaker 1: with we had saved you a seat with the family.
Speaker 1: You would have known that, but I didn't hear from
Speaker 1: you at all. I didn't have the energy to fight
Speaker 1: with him about it. I didn't have the energy to
Speaker 1: tell him how selfish that was, or how he could
Speaker 1: have simply asked me or just texted me to let
Speaker 1: me know he was thinking about me. Were asked if
Speaker 1: I needed anything at all, such as his physical presence.
Speaker 1: The fact of the matter, as I realized in that
Speaker 1: moment that his own selfishness and lack of empathy was
Speaker 1: his own very large dysfunction, and I was in no
Speaker 1: position whatsoever to argue with that, not in that moment
Speaker 1: to this day, that still hurts me. It seems there
Speaker 1: were a few people very close to me that didn't
Speaker 1: show up in the way that I expected them to
Speaker 1: that I needed them to. Another good friend I had
Speaker 1: texted the moment we got the funeral info to let
Speaker 1: him know so he could make arrangements to be there,
Speaker 1: and he responded, I'm not coming, Kyle. I don't do
Speaker 1: funerals and crying. You know that I'll grieve in my
Speaker 1: own way. I replied to him, but I need you
Speaker 1: there for me. I didn't get a reply back. He's
Speaker 1: another one that has been to my parents' house and
Speaker 1: family events and have been a good friend for a
Speaker 1: long time. But despite the ones who so deeply hurt
Speaker 1: me in my worst moments, so many others surprised me. Jason,
Speaker 1: which is no surprise, was there as a constant day
Speaker 1: and night. If he hadn't heard from me for a
Speaker 1: few hours, he'd text me to see how I was.
Speaker 1: And that was whether he was at work or at
Speaker 1: the gym, or at home with his wife and young
Speaker 1: son JJ and newborn Braxton. He showed up over and
Speaker 1: over and over again, and to this day he continues
Speaker 1: to show up. In fact, so many of my close
Speaker 1: friends were checking in on me, stopping by asking if
Speaker 1: I needed anything, and of course my family as well.
Speaker 1: I was leaning heavily on Dad and Kim and Aunt
Speaker 1: Kathy and uncle Tom and TJ, and my aunt Kathleen
Speaker 1: and Uncle Kevin and Aunt Michelle and my cousins. I
Speaker 1: was leaning on everybody close to me, heavily and strangely,
Speaker 1: as alone as I really really felt without Mom here,
Speaker 1: I had a small army of people there for me
Speaker 1: that were just the text away. A text from Militia
Speaker 1: actually said this is a quote, you are never alone.
Speaker 1: Those four words helped me more than she'll ever ever know.
Speaker 1: Kat my programming director from my heart, said we will
Speaker 1: get you through this. That's what she texted me. Her
Speaker 1: strength helped me when I had none of my own.
Speaker 1: My cousin TJ showed up just to see how I
Speaker 1: was doing, and although I didn't even want to get
Speaker 1: out of bed to open the door, I'm glad that
Speaker 1: I did. Through my grief journey, I'm learning that some
Speaker 1: people aren't the people you thought they were, and some
Speaker 1: are more incredible than you could have ever imagined. People
Speaker 1: were showing up for me in whatever way they could.
Speaker 1: They were reminders that at some point I was going
Speaker 1: to have to show up for myself too, because that's
Speaker 1: certainly not something that I was doing at that moment.
Speaker 1: This grief journey was going to be a hard, windy
Speaker 1: road that never ends. I'll always be on that journey
Speaker 1: of grieving my mom, but I've got a strong support
Speaker 1: system that will help me through it. And that's not
Speaker 1: something that just appeared. That's something that I've actively worked
Speaker 1: on to show up for them too. Did you know
Speaker 1: that when you have a secure attachment with your loved
Speaker 1: one that has passed, there are actual physiological changes that
Speaker 1: happen to your body, both through their death and again
Speaker 1: whenever you're actively thinking about them. Doctor Jesse Stern is
Speaker 1: a developmental psychologist at University of Virginia who studies attachments
Speaker 1: and their effect on various stages of life. Attachments or
Speaker 1: lack of them, have profound effects or not just our relationships,
Speaker 1: but our entire lives when we return. Doctor Stern and
Speaker 1: I explore how attachments to our loved ones that have
Speaker 1: passed and our attachments to our support systems can help
Speaker 1: or hurt our grieving process. Doctor Jesse Stern has dedicated
Speaker 1: her life to examining attachments, parenting, social neuroscience, child social
Speaker 1: emotional development, and relationships. Her deep study in these topics
Speaker 1: have made her an expert in attachments, human relationships, and
Speaker 1: support systems. I wanted to see just how important support
Speaker 1: systems were in both life and death. But first we
Speaker 1: had to start with the basics, Like what is attachment anyway?
Speaker 1: Attachment is kind of the bond that you have with
Speaker 1: another person. It's a specific type of relationship. It's one
Speaker 1: where you lean on the other person for support when
Speaker 1: you need it. So this is not just a casual
Speaker 1: acquaintance or someone you like hanging out with that it's
Speaker 1: the friend you call when you really need help. So
Speaker 1: those kinds of attachments can be really different from one
Speaker 1: person to the next because the quality of our relationships
Speaker 1: is super different. So I'm interested in how the quality
Speaker 1: of your relationship with somebody, Are they reliable, are they trustworthy?
Speaker 1: How does that allow you to go out into the
Speaker 1: world do the things you want to do, and also
Speaker 1: pay forward that kindness to other people. So some of
Speaker 1: my work shows that if you have a secure attachment,
Speaker 1: let's say, to a parent when you're a teenager, you're
Speaker 1: more likely to be able to show your close friends
Speaker 1: empathy from the time you're sixteen all the way through
Speaker 1: early adulthood, which is pretty cool. That is awesome. And
Speaker 1: I know this is anecdotal, but I can testify to
Speaker 1: that fact. You know, I had extremely secure relationship with
Speaker 1: my mom and dad, and both of them were are
Speaker 1: very loving type of people that you don't leave without
Speaker 1: saying love you, you know, even if you're mad, and
Speaker 1: that sort of thing. And I would say, I'm a
Speaker 1: pretty empathetic person and with you know, all of my
Speaker 1: friends and other relationships. So I think that's interesting because
Speaker 1: I can kind of relate to that totally. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: can see it in your own life. Well, you're very
Speaker 1: lucky to have not one, but two secure relationships. And actually,
Speaker 1: what we know is that those sources of security can
Speaker 1: build on each other right as sources of resilience. So
Speaker 1: if you have one parent with whom you actually you
Speaker 1: don't have a great relationship, but you have a great
Speaker 1: best friend who you can trust, it kind of compensates
Speaker 1: for the difficult relationship you have at home. So I
Speaker 1: often say to my students, like, who maybe aren't as
Speaker 1: lucky as you to have these great parents You can't
Speaker 1: choose your family, but you can choose your friends. So
Speaker 1: try to choose the friends who make you feel most secure.
Speaker 1: Same with romantic partners. If you can find a romantic
Speaker 1: partner who makes you feel really settled in your body
Speaker 1: and who you feel like you can lean on when
Speaker 1: times are hard, those are really the good litmus tests
Speaker 1: for a relationship going forward. Wow. So, knowing this background,
Speaker 1: what do we see when it comes to grief? You know,
Speaker 1: I lost my mom, who was the closest person to
Speaker 1: me in the world. It's a pancratic cancer and oh,
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry, thank you she was. I still sometimes
Speaker 1: talk about her in the present, but I was so
Speaker 1: close with her that what I'm learning is that it's
Speaker 1: not something I'm ever going to get over. Through doing
Speaker 1: this series, I'm learning that, you know, grief is not
Speaker 1: something you get over it. You know, you don't move
Speaker 1: on from that person. You just learn how to live
Speaker 1: with their absence. Yeah, and grief may take different forms
Speaker 1: throughout our lives going forward, but it's always going to
Speaker 1: be there somehow, and it's it's kind of how we
Speaker 1: handle it, you know. And so so that's why I'm
Speaker 1: you know, doing the show is just exploring all of
Speaker 1: all of these things. What have you seen with various
Speaker 1: attachments relating to someone that you love that's passing or
Speaker 1: you know is going to pass. Yeah, it's such a
Speaker 1: good question. The first thing to know is that we
Speaker 1: grieve because we love, so grief and attachment are in
Speaker 1: extreably intertwined. We lose many things over the course of
Speaker 1: our lives, just the nature of impermanence. Right. We lose
Speaker 1: our keys, we lose a water bottle on the subway.
Speaker 1: But you know, if I had a set of keys
Speaker 1: that belonged to my grandmother with whom I was very
Speaker 1: close and I lost that set of keys, suddenly I
Speaker 1: grieve for lost keys. And why is that? Because we
Speaker 1: start to associate objects or places or activities with the
Speaker 1: people we love. And that's actually one of the amazing
Speaker 1: things about the human mind is that we can represent
Speaker 1: the people who were close to in our minds so
Speaker 1: that they can be present and alive in memory even
Speaker 1: when they're not physically present or no longer alive. So
Speaker 1: it yes, this is my mom's ring. Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: that's really beautiful. And in fact, with the data shows
Speaker 1: is that if you're aware that the person has passed
Speaker 1: on and you're you're not in denial about that fact,
Speaker 1: but you're keeping them alive psychologically, and you keep them
Speaker 1: with you here in your heart. That's actually associated with
Speaker 1: pretty positive outcomes. These are called continuing bonds, and it's
Speaker 1: the idea that just because the person close to you
Speaker 1: has died, the relationship doesn't end. You're still connected to
Speaker 1: that person and also calling to mind the positive aspects
Speaker 1: of the relationship can be a source of security and
Speaker 1: comfort even during the grieving process. So it might not
Speaker 1: feel good necessarily to think about your mom when the
Speaker 1: grief is fresh, but with some time and space, her
Speaker 1: memory will be a source of security for you. This
Speaker 1: is actually something we do in our research quite a bit.
Speaker 1: Is called security priming, and regardless of whether you have
Speaker 1: a secure attachment or not in your daily life, you
Speaker 1: can increase your felt sense of security or your sense
Speaker 1: of state of call home, and you can lower your
Speaker 1: heart rate and your blood pressure by doing this. If
Speaker 1: I ask you to close your eyes and think of
Speaker 1: the person you can most depend on to be there
Speaker 1: for you in times of trouble, and just picture their
Speaker 1: face and imagine being with them. Typically people's breathing slows down.
Speaker 1: They have a sense of calm Physiologically, they sometimes say
Speaker 1: I feel warm. Other folks say they feel happy, But
Speaker 1: this cluster of words is always the same. I do
Speaker 1: this in all my classes. All the students say the
Speaker 1: same thing about the feelings that it conjures up. And
Speaker 1: what's interesting about this is just that felt sense can
Speaker 1: get you a lot of the benefits of actually being
Speaker 1: a securely attached person. So if you're insecure with your relationships,
Speaker 1: you can try practicing this yourself, just with one person
Speaker 1: who you can trust. You're more likely to be empathic
Speaker 1: to someone. You're more likely to hold more positive views
Speaker 1: of outgroup members or people different from you. You can
Speaker 1: regulate your emotions a little bit better. You get all
Speaker 1: these benefits from it. So why not. But let's talk
Speaker 1: a little bit about how you know if you don't
Speaker 1: have that security, what that means for grief. One thing
Speaker 1: we know is that for folks who have an anxious
Speaker 1: attachment style, this would be somebody who worries a lot
Speaker 1: about their relationships and especially is worried about abandonment. Usually
Speaker 1: this comes from having a history of inconsistent care. Sometimes
Speaker 1: my parents were there for me, and sometimes they weren't.
Speaker 1: I didn't really get my needs met all the time.
Speaker 1: It was very inconsistent. I didn't know who to trust.
Speaker 1: That kind of history means in your current relationships, it's
Speaker 1: kind of hard to fully know is someone there for me?
Speaker 1: Are you going to leave? Are you really there? And
Speaker 1: what we know about the grief process is it for
Speaker 1: folks with anxious attachment. They tend to have a lot
Speaker 1: higher distress following grief, and they're much more likely to
Speaker 1: experience as anger and preoccupation about the person who has died,
Speaker 1: not in a way that is comforting, more in a
Speaker 1: way that is chronically distressing. Another style of insecure attachment
Speaker 1: is avoidant attachment. Usually this comes from a place of
Speaker 1: having your vulnerability or your needs rejected in some way.
Speaker 1: So it could be that your parents weren't really comfortable
Speaker 1: with you showing emotion and we're kind of like, you
Speaker 1: need to deal with that by yourself, don't be a
Speaker 1: cry baby. Man up all those kinds of messages. And
Speaker 1: in adulthood, what we see with avoidant folks is a
Speaker 1: tendency to downplay with they're feeling. I'm fine, I'm over it.
Speaker 1: You know you talked about how we never fully get
Speaker 1: over lost. The s would be the folks who say, no,
Speaker 1: I'm over it, it's not an issue. They also are
Speaker 1: more likely to stay in denial longer because the numbness
Speaker 1: that comes with denial is protecting them against the vulnerability
Speaker 1: of their pain. The other trick key part about avoidance is,
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes it can look like this person is
Speaker 1: grieving great along the surface, all they're doing great, They're
Speaker 1: already back at work, things must be going really well.
Speaker 1: But there's a fragility to that, and once they become
Speaker 1: under stress, a lot of the grief that has not
Speaker 1: been acknowledged might come up. Those folks are also the
Speaker 1: least likely to seek out social support, which turns out
Speaker 1: to be really important for healthy grieving. That's absolutely incredible information,
Speaker 1: and I love how it has been quantitated. I guess
Speaker 1: is the world totally Yeah, quantified, quantified. This is why
Speaker 1: I try not to use big words, but you know,
Speaker 1: it really is interesting. And I've seen this with my
Speaker 1: own mom, how different people grieve differently, And you know,
Speaker 1: through other of my close connections who they themselves have
Speaker 1: suffered a laws, how they have handed it, And you know,
Speaker 1: I've kind of seen all types of those people, and
Speaker 1: and in fact, in my support system, I've seen that
Speaker 1: a bit. I had a friend, very good friend who
Speaker 1: for years and years and years, he has been to
Speaker 1: my parents house. You know, my mom had made him
Speaker 1: food before, and you know, long term friend. And when
Speaker 1: she passed away, obviously he knew and all that. But
Speaker 1: when I went to send him the funeral information, he
Speaker 1: was like, oh, I'm not coming to that. And I'm
Speaker 1: like but and he was like, yeah, I don't do
Speaker 1: stuff like that. You know, I don't do funerals and
Speaker 1: all those people crying, I just don't do that. And
Speaker 1: I'm you know, at first, I was insanely angry and hurt.
Speaker 1: I wanted to be like, it's not about you, you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's not what you need. I was hoping that
Speaker 1: you would be there for me, just support, and I
Speaker 1: just sided relatively quickly at that time that I didn't
Speaker 1: have the space to handle that at that time because
Speaker 1: I was, you know, totally consumed in everything going on.
Speaker 1: But I eventually kind of thought that that sucks, not
Speaker 1: just for me, but for him, because you know, if
Speaker 1: you are unable to be there for somebody that's close
Speaker 1: to you in a time where they're clearly hurting and
Speaker 1: need your support. That's kind of you know, stunted psychologically
Speaker 1: on your end, you know what I mean. And it's
Speaker 1: just interesting to me. You know. I had one friend
Speaker 1: and she's she's a great friend, and I didn't really
Speaker 1: hear from her, and her and I again very close,
Speaker 1: and we texted all the time, and then suddenly she
Speaker 1: kind of stopped texting, and so I reached out to
Speaker 1: her and I was like, you know, are you doing okay?
Speaker 1: And she's like, yeah, I'm so sorry. I will do
Speaker 1: anything that you need. She said, I just don't know
Speaker 1: how to be there for you. And that was interesting
Speaker 1: for me because basically what she was saying was tell
Speaker 1: me what you need and I'll do it. But I
Speaker 1: don't know what to do. So I'm just kind of
Speaker 1: like over here in the corner. You know. She was like,
Speaker 1: I don't want to like joke around like we normally do,
Speaker 1: because I don't want to like hurt you or whatever.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, just just be, you know, the way
Speaker 1: we always are, you know, and if I don't feel
Speaker 1: like laughing at that moment, I won't laugh. I mean,
Speaker 1: you're not gonna hurt me. And then she was totally
Speaker 1: there and available and you know, there for me. I
Speaker 1: had this third example was a very one of my
Speaker 1: closest friends, and I was there for him through parental loss,
Speaker 1: and I mean very intimately. I was there, very intimately
Speaker 1: for him. I was there, you know, soon after they
Speaker 1: passed and all of that totally you know, didn't come
Speaker 1: to my mom's funeral and I was like, where are
Speaker 1: you And he's like, uh, oh, you know, I knew
Speaker 1: that because during COVID the funeral they had to cap
Speaker 1: a at like two hundred or something, and he was like, oh,
Speaker 1: I knew that. You know, there's gonna be way more
Speaker 1: than two hundreds. So I wanted, you know, you guys
Speaker 1: to have a spot for somebody else. And I'm like,
Speaker 1: we were gonna have you sit with the family and
Speaker 1: just totally absent in any aspect relating to that, even
Speaker 1: though it was quite the opposite for you know, when
Speaker 1: it was the opposite situation. So my point is, and
Speaker 1: then I had a you know, amazing in general, I
Speaker 1: have a very amazing support system. I'm making it sound like,
Speaker 1: you know, these three people represented everybody, but they absolutely didn't.
Speaker 1: Well but those are the ones that absolutely, yeah, they
Speaker 1: do and you don't know, or at least I did
Speaker 1: not know how to handle that at that time. And
Speaker 1: I still hold resentment, you know, in some ways to
Speaker 1: a couple of them, and I'll have to work through that.
Speaker 1: But is that something Do I just you know, have
Speaker 1: a tendency to pick horribul friends of my life or
Speaker 1: is that Is this representative of kind of what anybody
Speaker 1: would go through with their circle. I think it's absolutely representative.
Speaker 1: Part of it is cultural. We live in the Western world,
Speaker 1: where there's a focus on individualism, we are not a
Speaker 1: very communal culture. In communal cultures, if something good happens,
Speaker 1: everybody comes together and celebrates with you, and if something
Speaker 1: bad happens, everybody comes together and brings you food and
Speaker 1: does the whole really supports you closely. In a lot
Speaker 1: of Latino immigrant communities, that communalism is still there in
Speaker 1: ways that four to five the community. It's there for
Speaker 1: a lot of African American folks as well. Actually, marginalized
Speaker 1: communities do this well because they have to. And we
Speaker 1: can learn from the resilience of the communities who do
Speaker 1: this well, who come together for each other However, within
Speaker 1: any community, there are always individual differences. People are hugely
Speaker 1: different one to the next. So even within our hyperindividualistic culture,
Speaker 1: there are people who just they know it to do.
Speaker 1: Some of this is modeled for us. How did we
Speaker 1: see the generation above us deal with loss? If the
Speaker 1: generation above us dealt with loss by not dealing with it,
Speaker 1: by not showing up to the funeral, that's the model
Speaker 1: we have. If even if I don't really feel comfortable
Speaker 1: with people's grief, I'm a little bit just I don't
Speaker 1: like seeing people cry, but I know from my own
Speaker 1: experience that this is what you do when someone dies.
Speaker 1: You show up, You bring them food. I have a
Speaker 1: schema in mind. A schema is just like a roadmap. Okay,
Speaker 1: when this happens, here's my roadmap for making sure I
Speaker 1: show up in some small way. A lot of people
Speaker 1: don't have that roadmap, and I don't think it's their fault,
Speaker 1: but I do think it's our responsibility to create a
Speaker 1: roadmap for loss, and we don't have one. And that's
Speaker 1: in part because we're all going through losses on mass
Speaker 1: scale right now. We need to have some way of
Speaker 1: dealing with it in our social communities. Otherwise our social
Speaker 1: communities are going to get free. I always like to
Speaker 1: say to people, there's no one one right way to grieve,
Speaker 1: as you said, but also there's no one right way
Speaker 1: to show up for somebody. The important part is that
Speaker 1: you show up. Typically, no one is going to remember
Speaker 1: what you said to them. They're going to remember that
Speaker 1: you were there and how you made them feel. Right,
Speaker 1: your presence is powerful. So if you don't know what
Speaker 1: to say to someone who just lost their special person,
Speaker 1: just say I'm so sorry for your loss and just
Speaker 1: sit with them. You don't have to say anything. Actually,
Speaker 1: one of the things about loss is that it actually
Speaker 1: is registered in our body, so in the wake of
Speaker 1: even a breakup, but also the loss of a spouse
Speaker 1: or prolonged separation from somebody. So for migrants who have
Speaker 1: had to move away from their families and their homeland
Speaker 1: and can't return safely, what you see is physiology. Your
Speaker 1: physiological rhythms get out of rhythm, your sleep might be disrupted,
Speaker 1: your levels of inflammation go way up, your immune function
Speaker 1: goes way down. And one other thing we know from
Speaker 1: attachment theory and research is that having the simple presence
Speaker 1: of one other person you trust can help recalibrate all
Speaker 1: of those things. This is called social regulation, and it
Speaker 1: just means that somebody's presence with you in a situation
Speaker 1: that's stressful and where your body and your brain are
Speaker 1: kind of reacting in the way that's totally understandable. Just
Speaker 1: that simple presence totally recalibrates and brings your breathing down.
Speaker 1: You actually heal faster from wounds and injuries if there's
Speaker 1: somebody with you by your hospital bed. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: why old what just simple social presence does. There's a
Speaker 1: great study by my friend and colleague Jim Cone where
Speaker 1: he put people in an MRI scanner under threat of
Speaker 1: electric shock, and he had them either do this alone,
Speaker 1: holding the hand of a stranger or holding the hand
Speaker 1: of their romantic partner. And when you're alone dealing with
Speaker 1: pain essentially, which we're also dealing with pain when you
Speaker 1: talk about loss. When you're alone dealing with pain, you're amygdala,
Speaker 1: which is the part of your brain that's all about
Speaker 1: fight flight freeze response, is just really active. If you're
Speaker 1: holding the hand of a stranger, maybe you get a
Speaker 1: little help. If you're holding the hand of your romantic partner,
Speaker 1: your amygdala response goes way down. This is true for
Speaker 1: kids holding the hand of their parents, and it's also
Speaker 1: true if you don't feel comfortable holding the hand of
Speaker 1: your buddy, that's okay. Just sitting next to them does
Speaker 1: a whole lot. We heal faster from wounds and injuries
Speaker 1: if there's somebody with you by your hospital bed. That
Speaker 1: incredible fact is just one of the benefits of healthy attachments.
Speaker 1: But what happens when the whirlwind dies down and those
Speaker 1: daily check ins turn into monthly texts, but you're still
Speaker 1: left grieving your loved one? Do you reach out to
Speaker 1: others for support? Do you just try and make do
Speaker 1: with what you do have? Doctor stern answers when we
Speaker 1: return often at some point, naturally the rush of people
Speaker 1: who are there for you fades away. It's only human nature,
Speaker 1: and nobody's at fault. Everyone can't be expected to put
Speaker 1: their life on hold while you grieve your loved one,
Speaker 1: because that's going to be something that never ends. But
Speaker 1: so many of us are still left with a devastating
Speaker 1: loss and may not be in a place where they
Speaker 1: feel comfortable reaching out for help, especially in those first
Speaker 1: few months and years, In the first few days and weeks,
Speaker 1: you have this twenty four seven support system, but then
Speaker 1: suddenly it just feels like it's gone. Doctor Stearn says
Speaker 1: that part of this is a result of it being
Speaker 1: the societal norm in the United States, but all hope
Speaker 1: isn't lost. There tends to be this idea that there's
Speaker 1: a timeline for grief, which I really don't think is true.
Speaker 1: But culturally, especially in the West, it's like the sooner
Speaker 1: you get over it, the better. Not every culture is
Speaker 1: like that. A lot of other cultures that have ancestor
Speaker 1: worship as part of the culture, So in Japan and
Speaker 1: other places, it's typical take a full year to really
Speaker 1: honor the person who has died, and the cultural norms
Speaker 1: are such that the social support is a little bit
Speaker 1: more sustained than what we have in the West. But
Speaker 1: the thing about cultural norms is that they can change.
Speaker 1: And what I'm really hoping is a silver lining from
Speaker 1: the pandemic is that we learn how to sustain the
Speaker 1: level of support that people actually need in the wake
Speaker 1: of loss, because we've all experienced it, and not only
Speaker 1: are we experiencing, actually experiencing multiple major systemic losses right now,
Speaker 1: huge loss of biodiversity, with the climate crisis, huge loss
Speaker 1: of life. We just passed one million deaths with COVID nineteen,
Speaker 1: huge loss with gun violence. It's now the top killer
Speaker 1: of youth in the United States, over and above car
Speaker 1: accidents and racism, I would say, is the last one
Speaker 1: that's taken the lie of many African American children and parents.
Speaker 1: I mean, the scale and the scope of these losses
Speaker 1: is huge. We have to find a better way to
Speaker 1: be there for each other in a sustained way. So
Speaker 1: the good news about social norms is that they're flexible
Speaker 1: and that each of us has the power to shift
Speaker 1: them and what we do. This means that if you
Speaker 1: know somebody who has gone through a loss, that you
Speaker 1: and other friends of that person who you know you
Speaker 1: can text all of them and say, hey, let's go
Speaker 1: bring this guy food, right, or Hey, I'm just I'm
Speaker 1: thinking about Kyle, and I think it would be great
Speaker 1: if all of us may be planned to just get dinner,
Speaker 1: something very simple. I mean, it doesn't have to be hey,
Speaker 1: i'm worried about how you're doing with your grief, Like,
Speaker 1: it doesn't have to be that. It can simply be hey,
Speaker 1: I was thinking about you how about we go grab
Speaker 1: dinner together, just like you would with a normal friendship.
Speaker 1: Those very simple ways to reach out to a person,
Speaker 1: and you can make that the norm within your little
Speaker 1: social circle, and it does ripple out because people pay
Speaker 1: forward the care they receive. Typically. The other thing is
Speaker 1: sometimes the people who best understand the long timeline that
Speaker 1: grief can take is other people who are grieving. So
Speaker 1: sometimes people find it helpful to join grief support groups.
Speaker 1: If your parent passed away from cancer, there are groups
Speaker 1: of folks who are either just mourning the death of
Speaker 1: a parent or mourning the death of anyone they loved
Speaker 1: from cancer. There are certainly a lot of COVID support groups. Sadly,
Speaker 1: there are groups of parents who have children who have
Speaker 1: died of gun violence, and those parents are coming together
Speaker 1: not just to grieve together, but also as part of
Speaker 1: making meaning from the loss and advocating for some kind
Speaker 1: of change in our society. So another part of grieving
Speaker 1: in community and continuing to have those social supports is
Speaker 1: doing something like what you're doing, which is making meaning
Speaker 1: from what you've been through in the form of a
Speaker 1: podcast that connects you to people. Meaning making is different
Speaker 1: for everybody, but it typically involves community in some way,
Speaker 1: and when you're thinking about organizing and doing something on
Speaker 1: a larger scale, often it requires sustained involvement. So you're
Speaker 1: just going to see those people more and more. I
Speaker 1: just want to emphasize that when I say making meaning,
Speaker 1: I don't mean that the loss was meaningful. A lot
Speaker 1: of losses are meaningless, like this person shouldn't have died,
Speaker 1: you know, they should still be here. I am saying
Speaker 1: that meaning happens in what you do following the loss.
Speaker 1: How do you make meaning of the person's contribution to
Speaker 1: your life and what you've learned from the grieving process,
Speaker 1: and how do you take the next step that has
Speaker 1: some purpose in meaning to it. So that's what I
Speaker 1: mean by that. I love that. What do you do
Speaker 1: when you know other loved ones, for instance, of the
Speaker 1: person who has passed are at different stages You know,
Speaker 1: you may have this could be somebody's parent and that
Speaker 1: parent is ready to date and blah blah blah, and
Speaker 1: all the kids are like, well, wait, we're still grieving
Speaker 1: or you know whatever that situation. How do you deal
Speaker 1: with when you are at different places with the shared
Speaker 1: grievers if you will? Yeah, So there's no one right
Speaker 1: way to grieve. And if you're feeling like someone in
Speaker 1: your family system is crazy, just remember that it's not
Speaker 1: them that's crazy. It's the situation that's crazy, because losing
Speaker 1: someone you love it's just a shitty situation. But it's
Speaker 1: the situation is crazy, it's not the person. And unless
Speaker 1: there are warning signs of this person is harming themselves
Speaker 1: or others, So that would be things like suicide risk,
Speaker 1: they're wanting to end their own life, or they want
Speaker 1: to follow their loved one into the dying process, you know,
Speaker 1: call the suicide helpline immediately. Second is if they're abusing
Speaker 1: drugs or alcohol. And the third is if they are
Speaker 1: so distressed that they can't function, shower, feed themselves, take
Speaker 1: care of children. Those would be the three warning signs
Speaker 1: that actually, this person needs some additional help, like emergency
Speaker 1: intervention sort of thing. Correct. In the case of suicide,
Speaker 1: you need to interview immediately. In the case of something
Speaker 1: like drugs or alcohol, engage the situation, but probably support
Speaker 1: of a therapist or professional would be good. Aside from
Speaker 1: those things, there's no right or wrong way right there's
Speaker 1: a lot of variation, and I just want to mention that,
Speaker 1: you know, Elizabeth Kobler Ross gave us these wonderful stages
Speaker 1: of grief, but they were actually descriptive of people who
Speaker 1: were dying, not people who are grieving. Now that they've
Speaker 1: been adopted for people who are grieving. But these are
Speaker 1: not linear, and she herself acknowledged that as she was
Speaker 1: in her own dying process. She said, we cycle through
Speaker 1: all of these. Some of us never experienced any of them.
Speaker 1: They're not meant to be proscriptive. They were simply described
Speaker 1: what she saw in her research. So one thing to
Speaker 1: remember is we're not all trying to race to acceptance
Speaker 1: or meaning making, which was what David Kessler added as
Speaker 1: a sixth stage. It's not a race and it's not
Speaker 1: a competition. But within a family system, it can be
Speaker 1: so frustrating when someone else is grieving differently from you.
Speaker 1: I mean, take an example of one person who wants
Speaker 1: to process all their grief verbally. They just want to
Speaker 1: talk all the time about the person, about their memories,
Speaker 1: and you have someone else in the family who just
Speaker 1: wants to be in nature and go for a run
Speaker 1: in the morning and be left alone. They're both processing
Speaker 1: and healthy ways. Both of them, but to each other,
Speaker 1: they're probably endlessly frustrating. The person who just wants to
Speaker 1: be in nature and go for his run is probably like,
Speaker 1: please stop talking to me. I just need quiet to
Speaker 1: really feel my feelings. And this person over here just
Speaker 1: wants to talk is saying you are totally unavailable to me.
Speaker 1: How can you be so cruel to not speak about
Speaker 1: this person? I think what's important is acceptance needs to
Speaker 1: be not just about the loss, but about each other's process.
Speaker 1: You can get to a place of this is this
Speaker 1: person's unique way of dealing with this loss, and really
Speaker 1: it's about being there for each other. Sometimes I need
Speaker 1: to honor this person's need to talk about it and
Speaker 1: I'll just listen. And then sometimes this person is going
Speaker 1: to need to honor my need to be alone and
Speaker 1: be in nature because that's what calms me down. That's
Speaker 1: not easy, right, But I do think that knowing that
Speaker 1: your grief process is not anybody else's grief process is
Speaker 1: really important, and also knowing that these descriptions of what
Speaker 1: grief looks like, from denial to anger, all of these stages,
Speaker 1: it's not the way that we should grieve, right. The
Speaker 1: important part, I think is to notice our own tendencies. Okay,
Speaker 1: my tendency with grief is to shut down and not
Speaker 1: talk to anybody, And I know this comes from maybe
Speaker 1: an avoidant attachment history. I know that's my tendency. I'm
Speaker 1: aware of it, and when I'm under stressed, that's what
Speaker 1: I revert to, because when any of us are under stressed,
Speaker 1: we revert to old patterns. But I'm aware that my
Speaker 1: romantic partner maybe really needs me to be present. So
Speaker 1: I'm noticing my tendency to shut down. What happens if
Speaker 1: I'm just opening the door like one notch and saying, hey,
Speaker 1: I'm having a hard day, that's huge, right, So if
Speaker 1: you can shift your style to turn toward these other
Speaker 1: people in your life are also grieving in their own way,
Speaker 1: it makes a huge difference. You don't have to go
Speaker 1: full one eighty and do what they're doing, but try
Speaker 1: turning towards them a little bit and see if you
Speaker 1: can accept their process is what they're doing. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: that's awesome. And thankfully I think that I'm an only child,
Speaker 1: so you know, I haven't I've seen situations where people
Speaker 1: are at different grieving processes with their brothers and sisters,
Speaker 1: and it just sucks because you want to talk to
Speaker 1: your brother or sister or whatever and say, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm really feeling upset about mom or dad, and they're like, well,
Speaker 1: get over it. It's been six months or you know,
Speaker 1: and I'm at work, leave me alone, or you know,
Speaker 1: And that's got to really be hard. But what you're
Speaker 1: saying is if we can acknowledge each other's needs and
Speaker 1: where we are in our process while kind of giving
Speaker 1: an equilibrium to let me give you some of what
Speaker 1: you need and then you kind of give me what
Speaker 1: I need, we can kind of eliminate a lot of that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that's right. Everyone is on their own timeline.
Speaker 1: You'll never stop grieving your loved one. They were a
Speaker 1: huge part of your life after all. But it's incredibly
Speaker 1: harmful and not at all supportive to tell someone they
Speaker 1: should be over it. And that doesn't matter if it's
Speaker 1: a month later, ten years later, seventy years later. Getting
Speaker 1: over it is just not something that's going to happen.
Speaker 1: It's dismissive, it's toxic, and it's wrong when we were
Speaker 1: Doctor Stern discusses how people with different communication styles can
Speaker 1: actually negotiate to give each other what they need to
Speaker 1: support them on their grief journeys when we return. As
Speaker 1: you move through your grief journey, some people may need
Speaker 1: to set boundaries for their grief, not only with themselves
Speaker 1: but with others. Allowing it to come all at once
Speaker 1: whenever at once twenty four to seven can put them
Speaker 1: in a position of not being able to function. And
Speaker 1: while that's absolutely expected early on, as the years go on,
Speaker 1: if it's still consuming you twenty four hours a day,
Speaker 1: seven days a week, to the point that you can't function,
Speaker 1: it is disrupting your life. That's not to say that
Speaker 1: it's somehow unhealthy to break down over your loved one
Speaker 1: or cry hysterically. None of those are wrong. It's simply
Speaker 1: saying that it wouldn't be healthy to let it affect
Speaker 1: you to the point where you're not able to function
Speaker 1: day in and day out, where you're not able to
Speaker 1: go to work, or go to school, or enjoy activities
Speaker 1: of your own. Doctor Stern has some great suggestions on
Speaker 1: how to keep that in check with yourself and especially
Speaker 1: with other people. The other thing is to know other
Speaker 1: people's communication styles, which you know before the loss. Some
Speaker 1: folks really need boundaries around the times that they allow
Speaker 1: themselves to grieve, because if they kind of let that
Speaker 1: in when they're in the middle of their work day
Speaker 1: or they're dropping their kids up at school in the morning,
Speaker 1: it just disrupts the entire day. So for some people,
Speaker 1: it's a matter of setting a boundary. Hey, I really
Speaker 1: I really want to talk to you about Mom, but
Speaker 1: I can't from nine to six. Those are my work hours,
Speaker 1: and when I think about her during those times, I
Speaker 1: can't get anything done. I can't focus. It's really hard
Speaker 1: for me. That's also part of grief and in trying
Speaker 1: to kind of rebuild your life that those boundaries are
Speaker 1: important for you to maintain, and they're important to communicate
Speaker 1: to the other members of your family system, right, Because
Speaker 1: it could be that the answer is actually, yes, I
Speaker 1: do want to talk about Mom, but no, you can't
Speaker 1: call me at ten am at the office, right, And
Speaker 1: so finding a middle ground of let's find a time
Speaker 1: to talk that works for both of us. I actually
Speaker 1: really want to do this with you, but let's both
Speaker 1: agree on what's going to work with both of us. Right.
Speaker 1: And Similarly, people are going to have varying needs over time,
Speaker 1: so some of that's going to need to be recalibrated
Speaker 1: as you go along. Having a conversation about boundaries right
Speaker 1: now is great and then revisited a few months later
Speaker 1: if you need to. It's interesting that you say that
Speaker 1: because I remember specifically where I was working this gig,
Speaker 1: you know, this project that I was working on, and
Speaker 1: I could not allow myself to start thinking about it
Speaker 1: during those hours because if I did, it would have
Speaker 1: spiraled and I would not have been able to get
Speaker 1: out of it. And then you know, I can't get
Speaker 1: kicked off a project or whatever, or not get the
Speaker 1: work done or whatever because I've been crying in the
Speaker 1: bathroom for the last four hours or whatever. So it's
Speaker 1: also I think important to know from what you've said
Speaker 1: that it's okay to give yourself the space to do
Speaker 1: it and give yourself the space to not do it,
Speaker 1: and by do it, I mean allow to tackle grief
Speaker 1: or whatever it is you're feeling at that time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think it's important to name this phenomenon, so emotion suppression.
Speaker 1: This is a skill that most of us have to
Speaker 1: varying degrees. Folks are more avoidant in their attack hatchment
Speaker 1: are great at suppressing emotion, but it tends to be
Speaker 1: a little too much. Folks who are securely attached, you know,
Speaker 1: we can do this too, but it's not our default mode.
Speaker 1: Folks who are anxiously attached to have a really hard
Speaker 1: time not just expressing their emotions all the time. That's,
Speaker 1: of course a big generalization, but emotion suppression is useful
Speaker 1: in the short term. It's a tool in our tool
Speaker 1: belt for not falling apart when we're doing the things
Speaker 1: we need to do, especially for parents who have lost
Speaker 1: somebody and need to show up and be strong for
Speaker 1: their kids so they don't pass on the trauma of
Speaker 1: that loss. You need to be able to tamp down
Speaker 1: sometimes and hold off on expressing fully what you're feeling,
Speaker 1: but just make sure that you do make time to
Speaker 1: feel and express what you're feeling, and that you have
Speaker 1: somebody to lean on when you need to be taken
Speaker 1: care of, rather than you being the careta right, So
Speaker 1: emotion suppression really good in the short term. What we
Speaker 1: know about emotion suppression in the long term, if you
Speaker 1: never allow that intentional space to feel what you're feeling
Speaker 1: around grief, it does tend to lead to health problems.
Speaker 1: So inflammation again tends to go up, sleep tends to
Speaker 1: be disrupted and your immune function is worse off. So
Speaker 1: just remember, yes, it's a tool in your tool belt,
Speaker 1: but use that emotion suppression when you need it, and
Speaker 1: then make intentional time and space to process honestly and
Speaker 1: to grapple with what you're feeling in a real way.
Speaker 1: It could be in the evenings, it could be first
Speaker 1: thing in the morning if you meditate or do yoga,
Speaker 1: go for a run, but guard those times when you
Speaker 1: sit down and feel what you need to. For some folks,
Speaker 1: that means journaling, writing it down, sometimes just writing down
Speaker 1: all the anger or whatever it is that you're grappling
Speaker 1: with guilt. Writing it down gives it less power over you.
Speaker 1: A lot of people are afraid that once they say
Speaker 1: something out loud or write it down, or I'm feeling
Speaker 1: responsible for this person's death, what if I had done X, Y,
Speaker 1: and Z, all of these regrets you had about the relationship.
Speaker 1: A lot of folks are afraid of saying or writing
Speaker 1: those thoughts down because then it makes them real. The
Speaker 1: opposite is actually true. You can start to release them
Speaker 1: so they don't constantly fled your consciousness. By simply expressing them,
Speaker 1: they have less power over you when you express them.
Speaker 1: The last thing is just the real goal of healing
Speaker 1: is not to get rid of your grief altogether, so
Speaker 1: it's not to be able to go to work and
Speaker 1: never think about this person again. The goal of grief
Speaker 1: is to grieve with more love than pain. In David
Speaker 1: Kessler's words, I really like that, grieve with more love
Speaker 1: than pain. So there's that phrase grief comes in waves,
Speaker 1: which is very true. And in the course of your day,
Speaker 1: even if you've set aside at time and you're like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to think about this right now, there
Speaker 1: might be an emotional trigger for you at the office.
Speaker 1: Let's say you go into the fridge and maybe you
Speaker 1: get yogurt and that was your parents' favorite flavor or whatever.
Speaker 1: It might be something totally mundane and inconsequential, and suddenly
Speaker 1: the grief comes up. And that's okay, that's going to happen.
Speaker 1: There are these little triggers everywhere in your life that
Speaker 1: will remind you of this person. But as time goes on,
Speaker 1: just trust that those triggers will start to be more
Speaker 1: bitter sweet than they are bitter. What is if you
Speaker 1: could leave one thing with people relating to all of
Speaker 1: the things we've talked about grief and attachment in general.
Speaker 1: If they could only take away one thing from you,
Speaker 1: what would that be? That grief reveals what we truly
Speaker 1: love and value, so don't shy away from it, and
Speaker 1: also don't be afraid to lean on people and to
Speaker 1: ask for what you need when you're grieving. Chances are,
Speaker 1: just like your friend, people might need to be asked
Speaker 1: or told what to do because they're in shock or
Speaker 1: they're going through their own stuff. But the biggest mistake
Speaker 1: we make is to think we have to go through
Speaker 1: grief alone, and we don't. The biggest mistake we make
Speaker 1: is to think we have to go through grief alone.
Speaker 1: An incredible insight from doctor Stern. Support systems are vital
Speaker 1: to our very existence as humans. When you want to
Speaker 1: ignore that phone call from your friend because you'll call
Speaker 1: him next week, pick up the phone. Haven't heard from
Speaker 1: your sister in a little while, caller. Not only is
Speaker 1: time not ever guaranteed, and I guarantee you you'll regret
Speaker 1: it when you don't have that time, but you will
Speaker 1: literally be healthier both physically and mentally from those connections
Speaker 1: that you have. Show up for yourself, so you can
Speaker 1: show up for others and they'll show up for you.
Speaker 1: Because support systems and healthy attachments are what get us
Speaker 1: through life and death. On the next episode of Death, Grief,
Speaker 1: and Other shit we don't discuss, I traveled to lily Dale,
Speaker 1: New York, a quaint hamlet whose entire population is made
Speaker 1: up of certified mediums and spiritualists, and it's said to
Speaker 1: be a place for spiritual healing. I talk with a
Speaker 1: few of the residents of lily Dale, including Reverend Angie apt,
Speaker 1: a spiritual counsel and medium, to see if she could
Speaker 1: give me some insight into the other side and if
Speaker 1: I'm truly able to contact my mom. I'm going to
Speaker 1: see my mother. She said she'd be me when I come.
Speaker 1: I just googled overgoa. I'm just glooled. We're over I'm
Speaker 1: into the school.