1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:04,480 Speaker 1: Fi AM six forty Live Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app. 2 00:00:11,360 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 2: Last year, nearly every county in California lost one person 3 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 2: to fentanyl. Five thy seven hundred and twenty two Californians 4 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 2: died in one year from fentanyl overdoses and poison whether. 5 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:22,960 Speaker 1: Local high school is mourning after a student died from 6 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 1: a fentanyl poisoning. The student local high school student is 7 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 1: dead and at least two others are hospitalized after authority 8 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:31,480 Speaker 1: say they overdosed on drugs. 9 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:35,880 Speaker 2: Seventeen years old, gone before his life really began. Several 10 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 2: young people overdosed in Hollywood last night. 11 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 1: No parent should ever have to mourn the loss of 12 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:43,279 Speaker 1: a child, but that's exactly what one Fullerton mom has 13 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:46,160 Speaker 1: been grappling with as she deals with the tragic death 14 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 1: of her seventeen year old daughter. 15 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:51,240 Speaker 2: The CDC says, in the last twelve months in America, 16 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 2: over one hundred thousand people have died from a drug overdose, 17 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:58,160 Speaker 2: and more than half died from fentanyl. This destroys people. 18 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:00,280 Speaker 3: It's destroyed my family. Me. 19 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: I'm without my son, my baby. 20 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 2: Cops and courts are cracking down hard on those who 21 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 2: may can sell fentanyl. 22 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 1: Who teenage boys have been arrested and connection with the 23 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:13,759 Speaker 1: overdose death of that fifteen year old girl at Bernstein 24 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: High School. 25 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 4: Twenty four year old Aaron Dare is now charged with murder. 26 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 2: Originally, the defendant was charged with the sales of fennel 27 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 2: that ultimately led to the death of the vigdom. 28 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 1: Today is a down payment on our work to tackle 29 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 1: the fentanyl crisis, and the poison peddlars in our. 30 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 3: Neighborhood should watch out, because we are coming for them. Next. 31 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:38,839 Speaker 2: I'm Steve Gregory. Join me for the next two hours 32 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 2: as we explore the history of fentanyl and why opioids 33 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:44,759 Speaker 2: have become a problem in southern California and around the nation, 34 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 2: and how kids are playing Russian Roulette every time they 35 00:01:48,560 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 2: buy another deadly pill. We begin our journey with one 36 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 2: of the agency's tasked with stopping the flow of opioids 37 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 2: in fentanyl. Bill Bodner, is the Special Agent in charge 38 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 2: of the Drug Enforcement Administration here in LA I asked 39 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:12,959 Speaker 2: him when fentanyl popped up on the DEA's radar. 40 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 5: You know, it first started becoming something that we noticed 41 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:21,079 Speaker 5: as a problem in twenty sixteen. I remember specifically what 42 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 5: it was and where I was standing and who I 43 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:27,679 Speaker 5: was talking to. We were doing an investigation, and by 44 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 5: doing this investigation, we learned that this Mexican organization was 45 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:33,080 Speaker 5: compiling a list of chemicals and we wondered, you know, 46 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 5: what in the world is this about. We didn't know 47 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 5: what these chemicals would be used for. We sent them 48 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:41,359 Speaker 5: to our lab director in San Diego and said, hey, 49 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 5: these chemicals, what drug is this for? What are they 50 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 5: going to do with this? And he came back and said, 51 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 5: that's to make fentanyl. And that's when we knew that 52 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 5: the game was going to change. 53 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 3: Well at that point, had you heard of fentanyl? Did 54 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:54,519 Speaker 3: you know what it was? I've heard of it, I 55 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:55,240 Speaker 3: knew what it was. 56 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:58,080 Speaker 5: The high profile case up to that point was the 57 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 5: death of Prince, the musician who died a fentanyl So 58 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 5: it was something that we knew about. But it was 59 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 5: more like almost more like a boutique drug, a designer drug. 60 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:13,079 Speaker 5: Some of it came directly from China to the United 61 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:17,800 Speaker 5: States in powdered form by by package by like DHL package, 62 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 5: and small groups in the United States would would press pills. 63 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:26,920 Speaker 5: It's amazing how that since the cartel's got involved in 64 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 5: the game in the game, the Cineloa cartel, the Haalisco 65 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 5: New Generation cartel, the dynamic completely changed. And really the 66 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 5: drug doesn't come directly from China. Now, the chemicals come 67 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 5: from China to Mexico. The drug is synthesized there and 68 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 5: it's all coming from Mexico into the US. And and 69 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 5: that's when the game changed and we saw this huge 70 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 5: influx of fentanyl because so it. 71 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 2: Sort of happened overnight almost Yeah, what's the attraction? 72 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 3: Profitability? 73 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 5: I mean, the way I explained it to people is 74 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 5: we have a fentanyl problem in this country because the 75 00:03:56,480 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 5: Cineloa cartel and the Jalisco New Generation cartel decided that 76 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 5: we're going to have a fentyl problem. And the question 77 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 5: is why did they make that decision. It's a business decision. 78 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 5: This is an extremely profitable drug for them because of 79 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 5: its synthetic nature. The same is true for methamphetamine. Don't 80 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 5: kid yourself. There's a lot less cocaine in Los Angeles 81 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:20,160 Speaker 5: right now than there was twenty years ago. That's because 82 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:23,919 Speaker 5: the Mexican drug cartels made the decision that ventanyl is 83 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 5: the drug they're going to push because it's more profitable 84 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 5: for them. So they set the tone in pace. They 85 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 5: set the tone. I mean they unfortunately. The reality is 86 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:34,599 Speaker 5: they decide what drugs we're going to have social issues 87 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:35,479 Speaker 5: with in this country. 88 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 3: And think about it. 89 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:41,279 Speaker 5: If you want to increase profitability as a drug cartel 90 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 5: and you want to do it with heroin, what does 91 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:47,040 Speaker 5: that require. It requires you to have control of vast 92 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:51,839 Speaker 5: swatches of land in Mexico where the opium plants, the 93 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 5: poppy plants are grown. Then you have to have people 94 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 5: working in those fields, scoring the plants, scraping the gum. 95 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 5: You need to control that area and it from rival cartels. 96 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:03,720 Speaker 5: With fentnyl, you don't need to do any of that. 97 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 5: All you need to do is get chemicals. You can 98 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:09,040 Speaker 5: make the drugs in a warehouse, in a garage, so 99 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 5: you don't have that all the problems that come along 100 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:15,920 Speaker 5: with scaling heroin production. So they decided, okay, we're not 101 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:18,600 Speaker 5: going to make our money from heroin. The same could 102 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:20,840 Speaker 5: be said for cocaine. If you want to make more 103 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 5: money trafficking cocaine, the coca plant isn't grown in Mexico. 104 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 5: They have to go to South America get a source 105 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:29,720 Speaker 5: for the kilos of cocaine. Not an issue they've had 106 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 5: sources for years, but they have to get that cocaine 107 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:36,600 Speaker 5: through the transit zone in Central America. How many different governments, 108 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 5: you know areas does that load have to go through, 109 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:43,360 Speaker 5: whether it's by air or by boat or by submarine. Now, right, 110 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 5: who has to be paid off or what risk are 111 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 5: they taking that it's going to be seized just to 112 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:51,359 Speaker 5: get it into Mexico so they can then add a 113 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 5: couple thousand dollars to the price and sell it here 114 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 5: in the United States. Risky business, not the most profitable business. 115 00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:00,200 Speaker 5: Why not vertically integrate control of production of the drug 116 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:02,839 Speaker 5: and the distribution of the drug and do it without 117 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 5: the need to control large, large areas of land. And 118 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 5: that's what's happened with synthetic drugs. Tack on top of that, Steve, 119 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 5: the marijuana business used to be profitable for drug cartels. 120 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:16,799 Speaker 5: And you know twenty sixteen is when the vote happened 121 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 5: in California to legalize cultivation. That also plays a factor 122 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 5: because you know, I remember one of the politicians, and 123 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 5: I don't remember which one, said in California this, you know, 124 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 5: by legalizing marijuana, we're going to deal a devastating blow 125 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:33,360 Speaker 5: to the drug cartels. That didn't happen. That was a 126 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 5: little bit of a naive statement. What happened was it 127 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 5: dealt a devastating blow to their marijuana trade. But they're 128 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 5: not going to go out of business. They're going to 129 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 5: find somewhere else to profit, and they turned to synthetic drugs, 130 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 5: and that's what the focus is now and we're kind 131 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 5: of bearing the brunt of that. 132 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 3: Here. 133 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:51,720 Speaker 2: We're speaking with Bill Bodener. He is the Special Agent 134 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:54,159 Speaker 2: in charge of the Los Angeles Division of the Drug 135 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:59,279 Speaker 2: Enforcement Administration. So, Agent you were talking about in twenty 136 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 2: sixteen when you said the fentanyl problem exploded, How does 137 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:06,280 Speaker 2: an agency wrap its head around dealing with a new 138 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 2: problem like this. 139 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:10,960 Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I'm gonna say, you know, lucky for us, 140 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:13,119 Speaker 5: And I hate to use that term because we're talking 141 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 5: about such devastating drug and anything that happens with fentanyl 142 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 5: is tragic. But it's the same people trafficking fentanyl that 143 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 5: we're trafficking meth and cocaine. It's the same roots used 144 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 5: to traffic fentanyl that we're trafficking meth and cocaine. It's 145 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 5: the same organizations that used to traffic cocaine and methamphetamine. 146 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 5: They're now trafficking fentanyl. So we were in the right place, 147 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 5: targeting the right people. That didn't change. Now it's just 148 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 5: a question of the drug changing, right, the drug changing, 149 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 5: and the drug being that much more deadly to the 150 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 5: people of this country. So really, you know, it's very 151 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 5: when we sees a load of fentanyl coming up from 152 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 5: Mexico and we get it in the La area here, 153 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 5: it's very often, a majority of the time mixed with 154 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 5: other drugs, Like there'll be pounds of methamphetamine, packages of fentanyl, 155 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 5: and then sometimes even kilograms of cocaine, all coming across 156 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 5: the border in the same car, same truck driven up 157 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 5: to La So all these Mexican cartels are polydrug They're 158 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 5: moving a lot of different drugs, they're moving them in 159 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 5: the same manner through the same smuggling roots. The issue 160 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 5: is that now more and more every day the focus 161 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 5: is becoming synthetic drugs, fentanyl and methamphetamine. 162 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 2: So the difference though is that you would be able 163 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 2: to fly over these fields at least spot where marijuana grows. 164 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 2: Were you used to be able to you know, coca plants, 165 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:33,960 Speaker 2: if you will, if you had any kind of intel 166 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 2: from other countries, but not this. This can be all 167 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 2: done like you're say, in a warehouse. So does that 168 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:40,440 Speaker 2: because a problem. 169 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 5: I mean, it makes it a lot more difficult course 170 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:45,079 Speaker 5: of course, because you know, like you said, it's very 171 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 5: easy to do flyovers, and that used to be a 172 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 5: big part of what was done in Mexico way back 173 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 5: in the eighties to identify marijuana fields. 174 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 3: Flyovers were a big part of it. 175 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 5: That's not possible with this type of synthetic drug operation. 176 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 5: You know, we're talking away warehouse, a nondescript warehouse in 177 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 5: any kind of industrial neighborhood, and they could be making 178 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:08,839 Speaker 5: literally thousands of pounds of methamphetamine there, or thousands of 179 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 5: pounds of fentanyl there. 180 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 2: Coming up, we speak with a professor of pharmacology about 181 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 2: the history of fentanyl and how future pharmacists are being 182 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 2: trained to spot opioid abuse. But first, this is the 183 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:22,320 Speaker 2: KFI new special Deadly Pill on KFI AM six forty. 184 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 2: Time now for a news update. 185 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 1: K f I Am six forty live everywhere on the 186 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app. If you are someone you know suffers from 187 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 1: a mental end or substance use disorder, call the National 188 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:39,959 Speaker 1: toll free Helpline at one eight hundred sixty six ' 189 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 1: two help. That's one eight hundred sixty six two four 190 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:44,199 Speaker 1: three five seven. 191 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 2: I'm Steve Gregory and this is the KFI News special 192 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 2: Deadly Pill. Doctor Melissa Durham is with the University of 193 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 2: Southern California's a School of Pharmacy. She's also an Associate 194 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 2: Professor of Clinical Pharmacy. She is a wealth of knowledge 195 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 2: and I wanted to start where a lot of addiction starts. 196 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 2: Pain management. 197 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 4: Well, I think a lot of people don't understand how 198 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 4: much of an impact pain has on people's overall life. 199 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 4: Almost twenty percent of all adults in the United States 200 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 4: suffer from chronic pain, and about eight percent actually suffer 201 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 4: from high impact chronic pain, where that actually prevents people 202 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 4: from doing activities of daily living and things that they 203 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 4: enjoy and maybe going back to work, people maybe on 204 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 4: permanent disability. Most folks who suffer from chronic pain also 205 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 4: have a mood disorder along with it, like depression or 206 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 4: anxiety or sleep disorders. So it really has a huge 207 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 4: impact and actually a high cost burden on our society too, 208 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 4: when you think of the loss of productivity and just 209 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 4: that huge impact on quality of life. So what we 210 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 4: do in pain management is focus on restoring functionality and 211 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 4: restoring quality of life by using a whole variety of 212 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 4: treatment modalities from medications to interventional therapies, pain psychology, occupational therapy, 213 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 4: physical therapy. It really takes a holistic approach to caring 214 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:12,319 Speaker 4: for the patient and that's the gold standard and that's 215 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 4: what we do at least in my practice. And we 216 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 4: talk about pain management. 217 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:21,200 Speaker 2: And we are at the campus of USC and you 218 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 2: are a professor, So how are you teaching the pharmacists 219 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 2: of tomorrow if you will, to deal with issues of 220 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 2: addiction in this pain management and how does that all 221 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 2: fit into your curriculum. 222 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 4: Well, it's not just the curriculum here, but I also 223 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:42,320 Speaker 4: take this externally to teaching other healthcare professionals. And some 224 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 4: of the concepts are really tricky and really kind of 225 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:47,839 Speaker 4: like gray area. We don't live in a world of 226 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:51,440 Speaker 4: black and white. So when we talk about treating folks 227 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 4: with chronic pain, we really focus on having a sort 228 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 4: of compassionate side to it, you know, really trying to 229 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 4: have empathy for the suffering that people are going through 230 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 4: while balancing putting safety the sort of these safety guardrails 231 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:13,560 Speaker 4: in place, so that way we don't contribute to the 232 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 4: opioid epidemic that's going on or any other medication related 233 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:22,320 Speaker 4: issues that might be caused from the treatments that we use. 234 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 4: So we focus on optimizing their medications with using what 235 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 4: we call multimodal therapy. So we may use medications like opioids, 236 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:36,079 Speaker 4: but we try to minimize that as much as possible, 237 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 4: but we also use a variety of other therapies available 238 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 4: to us as well. So that's kind of probably a 239 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 4: broad stroke of how we talk about this, the compassionate 240 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:49,840 Speaker 4: care and using a variety of different treatment therapies and 241 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 4: focusing on the whole patient. 242 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 3: So that's where we're at now. 243 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 2: So let's go back ten, fifteen, maybe even twenty years 244 00:12:56,720 --> 00:13:00,160 Speaker 2: when opioids. I don't know that I even remember the 245 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 2: word opioid ten years ago or twenty years ago, but 246 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 2: when it was first prescribed for pain management, it seemed 247 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 2: like it was it was handed out for everything. It 248 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 2: seemed like it was prescribed non stop. 249 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:13,959 Speaker 3: That was that the case. 250 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's probably a semi accurate depiction of it. I'd 251 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 4: say that it was very widely prescribed and widely used 252 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 4: I mean for years, hydro code and aceta menafin, what 253 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:30,320 Speaker 4: you may know as vicodin or norco, that was the 254 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:34,959 Speaker 4: number one prescribed medication in the United States as far 255 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 4: as number of prescriptions. And it was like that for years. Yes, 256 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 4: and everyone had that bottle of vicodin, you know, in 257 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 4: their medicine cabinet where they got it from a dentist. 258 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 4: I'm not trying to vilify any profession a dentist, the potiatrist, 259 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 4: you know, pain managers, the specialists, primary you know, everybody 260 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:56,080 Speaker 4: had it and it was widely accepted. So that's one 261 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 4: example of how prevalent it was. You know, when we 262 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 4: look back to and there's there's a lot of great 263 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 4: resources outlining this process and how this kind of evolved 264 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 4: in our history. But we would look back to the 265 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 4: late nineties early two thousands, that's when the long acting 266 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 4: opioids really sort of came into play in the market 267 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:18,840 Speaker 4: in a big way, and they were touted as allowing 268 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 4: people to live pain free and get back to work 269 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 4: and do the things that they wanted to do, and 270 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 4: also advertise in very unethical ways that they wouldn't cause addiction. Right, 271 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 4: So we had an explosion of those products on the 272 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 4: market in the late nineties early two thousands, and they 273 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 4: were used pretty inappropriately for you know, even in young 274 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 4: teenagers post of sports injury, you know, I mean things 275 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 4: like that were nowadays we would never do anything like that. 276 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 4: So it's been an interesting evolution. We had a huge 277 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 4: sort of flux of the use of opioids for pain 278 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 4: management and kind of inappropriate ways out of you know, 279 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 4: fear of people dying and living in pain, and response 280 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 4: to maybe unethical marketing practices, and then it's evolved to 281 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 4: really decrease over time. 282 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 2: Was you know when and I'm not sure if you 283 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 2: know the answer to this, but anytime there's a medication 284 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 2: on the market, regardless if it's for the most benign 285 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 2: thing or the most severe thing like opioids, wasn't there 286 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 2: any kind of an indication that this over prescribing of 287 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 2: opioids was going to cause a problem with addiction? I mean, 288 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 2: was there any indication that this stuff was addictive? 289 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I've listen, it's no it's no newsflash 290 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 4: that opioids cause quote unquote addiction. I mean, we're kind 291 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:40,200 Speaker 4: of trying to move away from the word addiction to 292 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 4: so you know, to more substance use disorders because addiction 293 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 4: tends to be very stigmatizing term. But yeah, I mean 294 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 4: you look back to the history of opioids we've had, like, 295 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 4: for example, the opium wars, right, the opium dens, big 296 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 4: drug scourges with with heroin, and I mean, this is 297 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 4: no newsflash that opioids are addictive. So it's just it 298 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 4: is kind of mind boggling that no one saw this 299 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 4: coming or no one cared actually because it was a 300 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 4: profit driven maybe, but I know a lot of healthcare 301 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 4: providers who were sounding alarm bells early on and who 302 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 4: didn't take up the prescribing practices of using opioids as 303 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 4: we talked about before, So it's not really surprising. 304 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 2: So our society and the medical infrastructure, they really weren't 305 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 2: prepared for all this. 306 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 3: Were they. 307 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 4: I wouldn't say that we were prepared for the vast 308 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 4: amount of folks who ended up with opioid use disorder 309 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 4: and we weren't prepared to treat them properly. 310 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 2: Bonus interview with doctor Durham is available on the Deadly 311 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 2: Pill podcast through the iHeartRadio app. Coming up, we go 312 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:52,040 Speaker 2: back to the DEA and talk with Special Agent Bill 313 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 2: Bodner about how fentanyl is making its way into California 314 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 2: and just how easy it is to buy it. But first, 315 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 2: this is Deadly Pilled on KFI. Time now for a 316 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 2: news update. 317 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:07,399 Speaker 1: He F I am six forty live everywhere on the 318 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app. 319 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 2: I'm Steve Gregory and this is the KFI Knew special 320 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:18,359 Speaker 2: Deadly Pill. Bill Bodner is the Special Agent in charge 321 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 2: of the DEA's LA office, and we spoke to him 322 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:22,639 Speaker 2: at the top of the show. But I wanted to 323 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 2: ask him how easy it is to get fentanyl, especially 324 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:26,200 Speaker 2: on social media. 325 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 5: That's a major part of the issue today. 326 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 3: You know. 327 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 5: The crux of it is, we have a drug that's 328 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 5: fifty times more powerful as heroin. It's being it's been 329 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 5: disguised as something else, and anyone who has a smartphone 330 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:43,679 Speaker 5: now can get it. 331 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:46,200 Speaker 3: That's a different thing. Years ago. 332 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:47,919 Speaker 5: It used to be, Hey, if you want to do 333 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:50,920 Speaker 5: First of all, people didn't experiment with heroin. You know, 334 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 5: it was an intervenous drug. You had a syringe, a tournique, 335 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 5: there was a process you had to go through to 336 00:17:57,119 --> 00:17:59,239 Speaker 5: inject it. That scared a lot of people away from 337 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 5: that drug. Like I said, a drug that's fifty times 338 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:03,919 Speaker 5: more powerful today that you don't have to go to 339 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,679 Speaker 5: a part of town where there's high crime, or you 340 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 5: don't have to go looking for You can just sit 341 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 5: in your bedroom or your living room, get on your smartphone, 342 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:15,399 Speaker 5: go on Snapchat, go on Instagram, go on one of 343 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 5: the social media apps, find a dealer. You can have 344 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 5: a delivery made to your house, and you can pay 345 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 5: with one of the payment apps. And so here's where 346 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:29,359 Speaker 5: that kind of came from COVID. When when places shut down, 347 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 5: you know, all of us in the working world a lot, 348 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:33,920 Speaker 5: it changed how we did business, right, There was a 349 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:36,879 Speaker 5: lot more remote work, a lot more digit quote digital work. 350 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 5: The same thing happened in the drug trade. The places 351 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:41,639 Speaker 5: where people used to go to get drugs, maybe it 352 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 5: was a nightclub, a bar, some kind of social gathering, 353 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 5: whatever those were, those were kind of non existent. You 354 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 5: couldn't you couldn't go there, and dealers sellers couldn't sell there. 355 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:54,679 Speaker 5: So what did they do. They started getting on social 356 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 5: media and making an effort to connect with people there 357 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 5: and do delivery. And that really exploded during COVID, that 358 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 5: social media delivery model of retail drug trafficking, and now 359 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:09,439 Speaker 5: even with everything open back up, people have found that 360 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 5: it's so easy that they've continued to do that. Think 361 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 5: of it just like when restaurants closed, people went a 362 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 5: lot to door dash during COVID, and maybe now they 363 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:20,880 Speaker 5: stuck with it because they realized this is actually pretty easy. 364 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 5: I can order food, I don't have to go pick 365 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 5: it up. It's the same thing now with retail drug sales. 366 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 5: And the scary part is, you know a lot of 367 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 5: the parents I talk to who have lost children, they say, 368 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 5: I thought my home was safe, and that's such a 369 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 5: riveting statement to hear. And you know, they didn't know 370 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:42,199 Speaker 5: that the threat was in the smartphone. They didn't know 371 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 5: that these powerful drugs could be delivered down the block. 372 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 5: And there's cases I've seen where a kid would just 373 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:50,400 Speaker 5: tell his parents, Hey, I'm running out for a minute, 374 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 5: literally run down the street, meet a dealer that the 375 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 5: deal was arranged over Snapchat, pay on an app, come 376 00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 5: back home, come in the house, go up to his room, 377 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 5: and not wait up the next morning. I mean, those 378 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:05,679 Speaker 5: are real cases that happen, and it's because of the 379 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 5: social media apps and the accessibility now of these super 380 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 5: powerful drugs. 381 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:11,120 Speaker 2: What can parents do. 382 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 5: Parents have to monitor their kids' social media and really, 383 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 5: I guess the first thing I would tell parents is 384 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 5: they have to learn the subject matter. You know. I 385 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:23,920 Speaker 5: used to just tell parents, hey, talk to your kids, 386 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:26,359 Speaker 5: and then I realized, I don't know that parents even 387 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 5: know themselves what's going on in the in the retailed 388 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 5: drug world right now with fentanyl, how dangerous it is, 389 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 5: where it is, the deception that's going on. So while 390 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 5: I'm telling parents, go on social media, there's documentaries about fentanyl. 391 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 5: One is called Debt on Arrival. Watch that yourself so 392 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:47,880 Speaker 5: you're educated, Watch it with your teenager together, and then 393 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 5: that'll be the conversation starter. That'll be the thing that 394 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:53,640 Speaker 5: gets you talking with your kids about drugs, what they 395 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:57,200 Speaker 5: see in schools where they see these drugs being available. 396 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:01,440 Speaker 5: Because I guarantee right now, the kids know a little 397 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:03,920 Speaker 5: bit more than even the parents do about what's going 398 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 5: on in this retail drug world. They know that the 399 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:08,639 Speaker 5: drugs are sold on social media apps. They might not 400 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 5: know that it's fentanyl, which is very important information. And 401 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 5: that's where we need the parents to get educated, talk 402 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 5: with their children and say no, these pills that kids 403 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 5: are buying are not real. They're fake, and they contain fentanyl. 404 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 2: And I suspect that this incident recently at Bernstein High 405 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:25,679 Speaker 2: School that had to have been a. 406 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,119 Speaker 5: Wakeed call for a lot of people. It had to 407 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:31,640 Speaker 5: have been and the only thing. And I know there's 408 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:35,360 Speaker 5: a lot of talk about that specific case. And by 409 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:38,879 Speaker 5: talking about that specific case, I don't want parents to think, who, 410 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 5: thank God, my kids don't go to Bernstein, or man, 411 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 5: I'm glad I don't live in that neighborhood, or. 412 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 3: Hey, that's the city of LA. 413 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:49,400 Speaker 5: That's not where I live in ex suburb of LA, 414 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:50,879 Speaker 5: you know, thirty miles out of town. 415 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:52,640 Speaker 3: The reality is it's everywhere. 416 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 5: Everywhere is an open air drug market right now. That's 417 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 5: the mindset that parents need to have. And the conduit 418 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 5: to that open air drug mank Mar. 419 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:01,240 Speaker 3: Is the smartphone. 420 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:03,639 Speaker 5: So monitor what your kids are doing on the phone, 421 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 5: Monitor what they're doing on social media apps, when they're 422 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 5: friending new people. 423 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 3: Ask them why. It used to be like. 424 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:10,920 Speaker 5: If you wanted to know what your kid was doing, 425 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 5: you would look out the window or look down the street. 426 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,880 Speaker 5: You can't do that now, and the dangers are exponentially 427 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 5: greater now, and the ability to monitor is probably exponentially lesser. 428 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,439 Speaker 5: So it really takes engagement of parents with their children 429 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:27,640 Speaker 5: and what their children are doing on social media. There's 430 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 5: a whole emoji language that children have that I'm sure 431 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 5: parents know very little about. We offer an emoji decoder 432 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 5: dea dot gov backslash one pill. It's a downloadable kind 433 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:45,200 Speaker 5: of guide there that shows what these different emojis mean 434 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 5: in the retail drug trade, and just look out for 435 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:52,359 Speaker 5: that stuff, because the unfortunate reality is kids will probably 436 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 5: continue to experiment with drugs. That's always been something that happens. 437 00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 5: The problem now is the dangers. It used to be 438 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 5: tell kids don't take drugs. It could lead to addiction, 439 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 5: you know, ten years of addiction or whatever. It could 440 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:08,439 Speaker 5: create these huge problems. Now it's don't take drugs. You 441 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:13,440 Speaker 5: could die today. And I think that's the important important 442 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 5: message to get out that it's really not about long 443 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:20,639 Speaker 5: term consequences now, it's about the immediate consequences of that decision. 444 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:22,879 Speaker 3: It could end your life today. 445 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 2: Before I let you go, I see these pictures. I 446 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 2: get you your press releases, and I see these photos 447 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 2: where you've got hundreds and thousands of pills and you've 448 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 2: seized millions of pills, not just here in this market, 449 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 2: but nationwide. I can't help but think that, you know, 450 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:44,160 Speaker 2: while you're sitting there touting all these seizures, that there 451 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 2: isn't more hundreds and thousands of pills and millions of 452 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 2: pills coming across the border. Are you making a dent agent? 453 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:53,679 Speaker 2: I mean, I mean, are you really having an impact 454 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 2: on this? 455 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 3: Yes? 456 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 5: And here's how you know. Here's how I say that 457 00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:00,879 Speaker 5: with such confidence. Steve supply side reduction work to reduce 458 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:03,439 Speaker 5: harm in the community. And what I point people to 459 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:08,440 Speaker 5: is prescription opiate drugs. The Centers for Disease Control they 460 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,360 Speaker 5: track how many opiate prescriptions are written in the United States, 461 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:13,639 Speaker 5: and if you go back and look at say twenty 462 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:17,280 Speaker 5: eleven or twenty twelve, the peak number was about two 463 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:20,439 Speaker 5: hundred and fifty five million opiate prescriptions. Believe it or not, 464 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:24,400 Speaker 5: that's a huge number. Look at how many overdoses there 465 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:29,880 Speaker 5: were those years from prescription opiates, and then contrast that 466 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 5: with today when the number the number of opiate prescriptions 467 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 5: is probably down to around one hundred and forty million. 468 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:39,920 Speaker 5: That's a significant reduction. We saw the overdose debts caused 469 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,919 Speaker 5: by those prescription opiates go down. So I do feel 470 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:47,719 Speaker 5: that by reducing the supply of drugs, you can reduce 471 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 5: the harm. It's easier to quantify that in the prescription 472 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:53,959 Speaker 5: drug market because we know what the total market is. 473 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 5: Quite honestly, we don't know what the total market is 474 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 5: in the illicit drug market. We don't know how many 475 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 5: fentanyl pills that these cartels are creating every day, but 476 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,639 Speaker 5: we know that if we can reduce the number. 477 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 3: You know that, we have the. 478 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 5: Media campaign One Pill Can Kill to get the word 479 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 5: out that it only takes one pill, as we saw 480 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:16,679 Speaker 5: at Bernstein High School, it only takes one pill to 481 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:17,360 Speaker 5: kill someone. 482 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 3: The fact that we're taking. 483 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,280 Speaker 5: This, you know, ten million pills off the street in 484 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 5: a couple months, it shows that there is a demonstratable 485 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:27,199 Speaker 5: benefit to the public with us doing that. 486 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 2: Agent Bodner, I appreciate your time. Thank you very much, 487 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 2: good luck. Thanks to you for an extended interview with 488 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 2: Agent Bodner. Download the Deadly Pill podcast on the iHeartRadio app. 489 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 2: Coming up, we talk with an addiction specialist about the 490 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 2: spike in substance abuse cases and the additional burden it 491 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:43,920 Speaker 2: is caused on the medical community. 492 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,159 Speaker 1: If you are someone you know suffers from a mental 493 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:50,200 Speaker 1: indoor substance use disorder, call the national toll free helpline 494 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:52,880 Speaker 1: at one eight hundred sixty six to two help. That's 495 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 1: one eight hundred sixty six two four three five seven. 496 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,240 Speaker 2: This is Deadly Pill on KFI AM six forty. Time 497 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 2: now for a news update. 498 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:06,200 Speaker 1: K FI AM six forty live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app. 499 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 2: I'm Steve Gregory with KFI News. Welcome back to Deadly Pill. 500 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 2: Doctor Rebecca Trotzky is the director of Addiction and Community 501 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,680 Speaker 2: Medicine in the La County USC Medical System. I asked 502 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 2: her just how bad addictions become in recent years. 503 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 6: Thank you for that question. Addiction is something I think 504 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:31,920 Speaker 6: we're all intimately familiar with, whether it's something that's affected 505 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 6: our friends, our family, or somebody close to us. Professionally, 506 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:37,679 Speaker 6: I have the honor of working at LACUSC, which is 507 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:41,200 Speaker 6: one of our safety net hospitals in the county, where 508 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,399 Speaker 6: we see patients for all kinds of reasons, heart disease, cancers, 509 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:47,119 Speaker 6: liver diseases, and we also see a lot of people 510 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 6: in social crisis, so coming into our er because there's 511 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 6: really no place for them. To go and they're in despair. 512 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 6: And when we talk to our patients in our community, 513 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 6: we see that underlying a lot of issues is substance 514 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 6: use disorders. So we definitely feel the impact of untreated 515 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 6: substance disorders addiction people who've been struggling for years wanting 516 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 6: help and finally finding a place to go for help. 517 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 6: So it's really an honor to privilege to serve our community. 518 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 2: Are you seeing what I mean, what ages? What are 519 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 2: you seeing in? Is there or is there a particular 520 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,159 Speaker 2: age or demographic that you're seeing that's coming in with 521 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 2: addiction issues. 522 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,200 Speaker 6: Yeah. So I am a family medicine doctor, which means 523 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 6: you know, birth to grave is who I care for, 524 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,400 Speaker 6: and my subspecialty is in addiction medicine. So I've really 525 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,440 Speaker 6: focused on how addiction plays within the life course of 526 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 6: a person in their family. We do a lot with adults, 527 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:44,400 Speaker 6: of course, but we also do see more and more 528 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 6: younger people coming in with overdoses and that's been in 529 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:51,359 Speaker 6: the news recently, where people are experimenting with drugs at 530 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,120 Speaker 6: a younger age and those drugs tend to be more 531 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 6: lethal or more deadly or more potent because of what's 532 00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,479 Speaker 6: being mixed into them or is contaminated into them. So 533 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 6: we're seeing a lot of a lot of the legacy 534 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:07,159 Speaker 6: of the opioid crisis or over prescribing of opioids, but 535 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:11,480 Speaker 6: we're also seeing the new street economy of ventanyl. 536 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:13,159 Speaker 3: Now, when you. 537 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,680 Speaker 2: Talk about fentanyl, I mean I've been talking to others 538 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 2: when they say that it wasn't even on their radar 539 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,160 Speaker 2: five or six years ago. And I mean fentanyl there 540 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,919 Speaker 2: is a legitimate use in medicine and in particular for 541 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,919 Speaker 2: surgeries and other things like that, but in terms of 542 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 2: it being so readily available and becoming such an issue 543 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 2: with people like you, who, like you say, are in 544 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 2: the safety net services, where you're seeing sort of the 545 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,199 Speaker 2: end result of the overdose or the end result of 546 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 2: the illicit use of the drug. I mean, have you 547 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 2: ever seen it this bad before? Especially with fentanyl. 548 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 6: Ventanyl has been in our minds for the past couple 549 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,200 Speaker 6: of years. We've been really aware of how opioids in 550 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:55,719 Speaker 6: general have impacted our community. But with ventanyl, it becomes 551 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 6: almost a deadly lottery where people are not knowing that 552 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 6: they're using a substance and it ends up having ventanyl 553 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 6: and then they have a bad reaction to it, so 554 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 6: it's a really different experience. We've had people come and 555 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 6: say that they thought they were using methamphetamines, that they 556 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,080 Speaker 6: were using cocaine, thought they were even using weed and 557 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 6: it turns out to be intermixed with fentanyl. We have 558 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 6: had people who've been using heroin for a number of 559 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 6: decades even and then have a new distributor and all 560 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 6: of a sudden nerve with an overdose because it's just 561 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 6: such a level of potency different than what we had 562 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 6: seen before. The good news is we are equipped well 563 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 6: to help people who use fentanel and use any sort 564 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 6: of opioid, whether that's narco or pills like morphine, or 565 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:44,840 Speaker 6: injecting like heroin or fentanyl, or smoking. We have great 566 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 6: treatments here at the county, and we're more and more 567 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,719 Speaker 6: ready to be able to deploy those treatments wherever you 568 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 6: come in, whether it's for a broken leg, for a 569 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:54,960 Speaker 6: car crash, for a heart attack. If it turns out 570 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,440 Speaker 6: you also have other issues, we're able to co treat 571 00:29:57,440 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 6: those issues with you. 572 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 2: And would you please clarifying explain what a safety net 573 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 2: service is and when you say you're in the safety 574 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 2: net portion of this. 575 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,480 Speaker 6: Yeah, well, I have a really interesting experience of being 576 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,480 Speaker 6: right across the street from usc CACH hospitals, which are 577 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 6: really well funded and serve a very different clientele than 578 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 6: the Safety Nets system, which is the community supported hospital 579 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 6: and medical system of Los Angeles County. So we're really 580 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 6: fortunate in LA County and in California that our civil 581 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 6: society has stepped up and said, hey, healthcare is important 582 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 6: to us. And so even if you don't have insurance, 583 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 6: even if you didn't fill out your paperwork, even if 584 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 6: you don't have immigration status, we're here to help you, 585 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 6: and our doors are open to you, and we're very 586 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:40,240 Speaker 6: excited to be able to make sure that everybody receives 587 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 6: a basic level of care that helps them thrive in 588 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 6: our community. So that's what we mean by safety Net. 589 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:48,080 Speaker 6: People have many options to go for healthcare, and we 590 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:50,720 Speaker 6: encourage people to go wherever they want to go, but 591 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 6: we're here for people who don't have any other option 592 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 6: or choose to come to us. 593 00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 2: You know, you saying that makes me think of something 594 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 2: real quick. 595 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:00,480 Speaker 3: Is this. 596 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 2: You know a lot of times you talk about some 597 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 2: of these drugs and they're very expensive, and you know, 598 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 2: only very wealthy people could afford this really, you know, 599 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 2: all the high end drugs and whatnot or whatever you 600 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,080 Speaker 2: get on the streets. But the one thing I'm noticing 601 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 2: about fentanyl now and officials that I speak with, both 602 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 2: in medical and law enforcement, is that this seems to 603 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 2: be a drug that's going across all demographics, all socioeconomic backgrounds. 604 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 2: Are you seeing that as well? For sure? 605 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 6: It's interesting to note that people use substances across all demographics, 606 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:31,720 Speaker 6: all races, all genders, pretty much at. 607 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 3: The same rate. 608 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,080 Speaker 6: But the harms from use of drugs is really different 609 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:37,640 Speaker 6: based on a bunch of different factors. So we know 610 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 6: certain populations get more criminalized for drug use than other populations. 611 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,040 Speaker 6: And it's important that when we talk about fentanel. Yeah, 612 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 6: there is a sprinkling of fentanyl across everywhere, and it's 613 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 6: harming everybody, but it's really impacting young, poor people of color. 614 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 6: And it's hard for us to imagine that that's the 615 00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,959 Speaker 6: case because I think the media portrays some drug use 616 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,960 Speaker 6: or like high you know, profile cases don't tend to 617 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 6: be that population. But that's often the population that sees 618 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:08,400 Speaker 6: a lot of health harms from drug use and a 619 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 6: lot of societal harms from that, whether that's difficulty getting jobs, 620 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 6: difficulty getting in housing, difficulty with arrests and criminalization histories. 621 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 6: So you know, it's nice kind of being in the 622 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,520 Speaker 6: safety net system is we're really anchored in that concept 623 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:24,680 Speaker 6: of equity, really trying to make sure that what we 624 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 6: do as providers serves everybody and pays a special attention 625 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:30,960 Speaker 6: to people who aren't used to getting the services that 626 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 6: they need. And like I alluded to, we have great 627 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:39,200 Speaker 6: treatments for opioid use disorder, which includes fentonal use. So 628 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 6: those are just technologies in medicine that we're now able 629 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 6: to provide people, whether that's methadone or whether that's PIPA, 630 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 6: norphine and sabosune. We're really able to help people get 631 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 6: access to medications that when they take, they really transform 632 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,960 Speaker 6: their lives. So they go from somebody who often hasn't 633 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 6: seen their family for you know, a decade, has been 634 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 6: living on the streets, to then hey, I got my 635 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,120 Speaker 6: life together because I'm no longer craving opioids, I'm no 636 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 6: longer using fernsonel, I'm no longer living in a tent. 637 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:09,720 Speaker 6: I reconnected with my grandma. I had a patient come 638 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 6: and tell me, you know, my grandma just lent me 639 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:13,560 Speaker 6: ten bucks. And I wanted to tell you that because 640 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:16,280 Speaker 6: she would have never lent me any money for decades. 641 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 6: She was so worried about what I would do with 642 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:21,239 Speaker 6: that money. And things like that are the stories in 643 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,680 Speaker 6: medicine that really carry hope for us, because it is 644 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 6: overall sometimes a depressing city we live in. It's a 645 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 6: depressing time sometimes we live in. We've all been struggling 646 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,480 Speaker 6: these past couple of years. But the treatment for addiction 647 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 6: medicine is just this ray of hope that we are 648 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 6: able to provide for people at a really hard time 649 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 6: in their life. 650 00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 2: You can hear an extended interview with doctor Trotsky by 651 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:45,720 Speaker 2: downloading the Deadly Pill podcast on the iHeartRadio app. Coming up, 652 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:49,080 Speaker 2: we speak with a licensed advanced alcohol and drug counselor 653 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,719 Speaker 2: who walks us through the steps of rehab. But first, 654 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:55,920 Speaker 2: this is Deadly Pill on KFI Am six forty Time 655 00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:57,120 Speaker 2: now for a news update.