1 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:08,720 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg p m L Podcast. I'm Pim Fox. 2 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 1: Along with my co host Lisa Bramowitz. Each day we 3 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 1: bring you the most important, noteworthy and useful interviews for 4 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 1: you and your money, whether you're at the grocery store 5 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: or the trading floor. Find the Bloomberg p m L 6 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:31,320 Speaker 1: Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, and Bloomberg dot com. Well, 7 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 1: we are broadcasting live from the Bloomberg look Ahead Conference 8 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: You're Ahead, which we are having a hosting here in 9 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:43,199 Speaker 1: our Bloomberg headquarters in New York and pim you know, 10 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 1: one conversation that is paramount this year is UH corporate 11 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 1: governance and the the amount that secial harassment and other 12 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 1: types of activities are kind of hindering corporate growth. And 13 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 1: this is something that obviously has been brought to the 14 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:04,760 Speaker 1: foreg part by Harvey Weinstein and the increasing allegations for 15 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:09,759 Speaker 1: a number of different actresses about his unwanted approaches of them, 16 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: and UH and other other people as well have been 17 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:15,840 Speaker 1: accused of similar attributes, and so this is something that 18 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 1: is actually coming to the four as a corporate issue 19 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:22,399 Speaker 1: and one that is important more than it has in 20 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 1: a long time. Well, corporate issue, yes, and the financial 21 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 1: issue for those corporations. And you know, just to make 22 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:31,680 Speaker 1: clear that there are a variety of different, uh sort 23 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:34,679 Speaker 1: of remedies that exist. And in the federal in the 24 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 1: government sphere, you think that there would be a process 25 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 1: that would allow that kind of uh what my restitution 26 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 1: or payment for this, but it's not. So. Federal workers 27 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: have a cap on the amount. And let's say you're 28 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: able to prove sexual harassment, there is a cap on 29 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 1: the punitive and compensatory damages. They're based on the size 30 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 1: of the company. And so if you are doing business 31 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 1: with the government, you are let's say, only have between 32 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: fifteen and a hundred employees. You only the campus fifty. 33 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: So the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission has a very different 34 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 1: set of rules for almost every different business. You know, 35 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: I have to say, uh, Sam our producer, and I 36 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: were talking about this and one thing that really struck 37 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 1: us is, you know, in a society where there's so 38 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:28,679 Speaker 1: much money and time spent putting in creating a sense 39 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 1: of beauty for women that's sort of flaunce their their 40 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 1: sort of sexual attributes. How that sort of plays into 41 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:37,239 Speaker 1: this whole debate, and there has been no one who 42 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 1: has been more at the forefront of this entire debate 43 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:43,920 Speaker 1: than Anita Hill, who is currently a professor of Law, 44 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 1: public policy, and Women's Studies at the hell Are Graduate 45 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: School of Policy and Management at Brandise University in Washington, 46 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 1: d C. Of course, she is known and became a 47 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 1: national figure in one when she accused US Supreme Court 48 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: nominee Clarence Thomas for boss at the United States Department 49 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 1: of Education UH and Equal Opportunity Employment Opportunity Commission of 50 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 1: sexual harassment. And she joins US here today. UM. Professor Hill, 51 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us. UM. Do you 52 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 1: think that things have gotten better since as far as 53 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: people being receptive to accusations of sexual harassment and discussing 54 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:22,920 Speaker 1: them in an open way? I do think things have 55 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 1: gotten better. I think that the latest media attention UH 56 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 1: is much better now. I think people are really pondering 57 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: women's experiences differently now. UH. They've stopped asking a question, 58 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: why didn't you come forward? And they're starting to really 59 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 1: examine the behavior and the structures that in people who 60 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 1: keep the behavior in place. So I think this is 61 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 1: an improved conversation, UM, and we just need to take 62 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 1: those next steps there in the problem. What are some 63 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 1: of those next steps? Is it uh, recognizing the potential 64 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:04,279 Speaker 1: finance liability, let's say, in the corporate setting, a reputational liability, 65 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: and obviously all those things play into it, But what 66 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:08,839 Speaker 1: would you see as some of the next steps. Well, 67 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: one of the things that I think companies ought to 68 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 1: do is to really assess their workplaces. There are a 69 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 1: combination of things that need to be done in order 70 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 1: to make change, and we know that from just history 71 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: and and the whole history of social change in this country. UM. 72 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 1: Some of the things that are structural, uh in terms 73 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 1: of policies and procedures within the company, and some have 74 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 1: to do with changing the culture of certain companies, cultures 75 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 1: that actually in fact encourage the behavior, and then other 76 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:43,279 Speaker 1: cultural aspects that sort of minimize the behavior and say, well, 77 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 1: it's not really that bad or anything that we need 78 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 1: to be concerned about. And of course there's always the 79 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 1: economic interests that a business has, and I know that 80 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: that's what drives businesses. But the that harassment does cost. 81 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 1: It costs business in terms of payments or people who 82 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 1: are asked, but it also costs in terms of the 83 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 1: human resources. UM. And that's something that companies need to 84 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,160 Speaker 1: take into account. But I also like to flip the 85 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:14,919 Speaker 1: questions sometimes, and I said and say, you know what, 86 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 1: how are you profiting from harassment? How what good? There's 87 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 1: what benefit do you get as a company from having 88 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:26,279 Speaker 1: a culture that is harassing when instead what you should 89 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:30,040 Speaker 1: be looking for is making sure that people are judged 90 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:32,799 Speaker 1: on their merit and that they can perform to their fullest. 91 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:35,839 Speaker 1: You know, sometimes when sexual harassment is in the news, 92 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:38,600 Speaker 1: you start getting a lot of backlash where uh, you know, 93 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: men in particular will say, well, does that mean that 94 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 1: no man can never hit on a woman, or that 95 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 1: you know, if a woman is wearing uh, you know, 96 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 1: if she's putting herself together in a certain way and 97 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 1: you can't comment on it, what's her response to that? Well, 98 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 1: I think one of the things that I have her 99 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:59,040 Speaker 1: very often is, you know, even in ninety one, when 100 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:01,039 Speaker 1: people said, well, now we have to think about what 101 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 1: we say, well, there's no danger in thinking about what 102 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:07,360 Speaker 1: you say. Oh, in fact, we should all be quite thoughtful, 103 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 1: especially now that we know, um what the problem is 104 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 1: that these are situations that women are finding themselves in, 105 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 1: and some of them are called workers who are men 106 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:21,039 Speaker 1: find themselves and then make them uncomfortable that really have 107 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:25,480 Speaker 1: no place in the workplace. It's time out for people saying, oh, well, 108 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:28,480 Speaker 1: you know we used to be able to do this. Well, 109 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 1: it's a new day. And women have spoken that they 110 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 1: find it offensive. You know, if women don't find it offensive, 111 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 1: then you know, that's fine, But that doesn't mean that 112 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 1: you should continue and keep pushing the issue when we 113 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 1: have been put on you've been putting people on notice 114 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:46,480 Speaker 1: that this is a problem in the workplace and it's 115 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: it's hindering our abilities to do our job. Does it 116 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 1: also speak to the sort of lack of just good 117 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 1: manners and and you know, the way you treat other people, 118 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:01,359 Speaker 1: because this seems to be an shoot not just about 119 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,480 Speaker 1: whether someone wants to have a sexual relationship or not. 120 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 1: It's about power, and it's about the power that one 121 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 1: person has over another person, and it just manifests itself 122 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 1: in this way. But harassment doesn't necessarily mean sexual harassment. Well, 123 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 1: there's sex based harassment that can happen on any you know, 124 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 1: to any number of people. It's a sexual harassment that 125 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 1: we're talking about. It's been in the news lately. But 126 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 1: you're absolutely right um. This typically can manifest itself UM 127 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 1: in different forms depending on the person who is exhibiting 128 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 1: it and the person who they talked to. So it 129 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 1: can harassment can come in the form of racist harassment, 130 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 1: It can come in form a homophobic harassment. It can 131 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 1: come in the form of all kinds of of of 132 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 1: language that is inappropriate and that is offensive and that 133 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 1: really has no benefit, gives no benefit to the work. 134 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 1: But I you know, it is at some point a 135 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 1: level on the level of civility. How much civility are 136 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 1: we going to try to promote in a workplace? But 137 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 1: there is something that is very special and peculiar about 138 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 1: sexual harassment when you look at the numbers, and they range, 139 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: but some of the numbers suggested as many as forty 140 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 1: two fifty percent of the limit in a workforce of 141 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:32,840 Speaker 1: being harassed sexually harassed. So we know that this is 142 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 1: a peculiar problem, but there are variations on the thing. Well, 143 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 1: and we talk about big corporations, and we talk about Hollywood. Uh, 144 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 1: what about government? Right? I mean, we're hearing an increasing 145 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 1: amount about allegations with the government. President Trump was caught 146 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 1: on tape talking about doing whatever he wanted, Uh, with people. 147 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 1: I mean, do you get the sense that, first of all, 148 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 1: Clarence Thomas would be on Supreme Court today had he 149 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:04,320 Speaker 1: faced the same kind of UH challenges as he did 150 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:07,559 Speaker 1: back in I'm not sure that there would have been 151 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 1: a nomination that I would have could have gone forward 152 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:14,440 Speaker 1: had there been allegations of harassment. I'm not sure we 153 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 1: would have even had the hearing, That's what I'm saying. 154 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:20,839 Speaker 1: So you can't go back and say in time and say, 155 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:25,439 Speaker 1: wouldn't it have happened if X, Because I mean, we 156 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:28,560 Speaker 1: wouldn't be talking about it if that hearing hadn't occurred. 157 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 1: But do you think that there are procedures that are 158 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 1: appropriate and adequate in Congress right now and just in 159 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:38,440 Speaker 1: general and throughout Washington to prevent this? Well, I think 160 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 1: that if if there was a nominee, uh, my complaint 161 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 1: or my statement to the Senate Judiciary Committee came before 162 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 1: the vote and before the hearing and which I testified, 163 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: I think that the procedure would be to take that 164 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 1: kind of complaint very seriously before pushed a nomination through. 165 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 1: So I think we're in a different place now. Uh. 166 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 1: The presumption at that point was always either that it 167 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:14,559 Speaker 1: didn't happen or that it didn't matter and the harassment. 168 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 1: And I don't think that we're willing to make that 169 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 1: bold a statement right now about what's going on in 170 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 1: the workplace that we all live in. A lot of 171 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: times the conversation becomes broad and it goes under the 172 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: heading of corporate governance. Do you think it'd be valuable 173 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 1: to put an actual grade or rape me? Companies that pollute, 174 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 1: they might get a grade. Companies that don't enforce a 175 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: sexual harassment free environment for people, they would get a grade. 176 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:50,200 Speaker 1: Do you think that would get any traction in terms 177 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 1: of investors, Because as you said, you have a workforce 178 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 1: that feels harassed in any way, you're not gonna be 179 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 1: doing their best work. They're not going to be doing 180 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 1: their best work. And we know now that are not 181 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:04,199 Speaker 1: about just personal decisions. These are these examining It is 182 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:07,959 Speaker 1: about a business decision too. And um, with all the 183 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 1: kind of media platforms that we have now, reputations can 184 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 1: be out there on the record. And I think that 185 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 1: that is perhaps a coming wave of things that people 186 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 1: are going to be putting things on social media. You 187 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:22,600 Speaker 1: know that that's what happened at Ober. You know, one 188 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:26,679 Speaker 1: bog put that on the record and other people stepped up. 189 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:30,559 Speaker 1: So no, we are not and they will be grading 190 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 1: whether or not there is an official grade. Reputation is 191 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:39,160 Speaker 1: at stake, and um, I know that there's new studies 192 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 1: and says that say that the reputation really is what 193 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 1: UH really is motivating companies to behave differently or to 194 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 1: put into place different different policies and processes, to end 195 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:56,680 Speaker 1: a problem, or to react to a problem, maybe fire someone, 196 00:11:56,840 --> 00:12:00,439 Speaker 1: to to change the culture. So I you're absolutely right 197 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 1: in the social media is the conduit. Thank you very 198 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 1: much for spending time with us. Anita Hill is a 199 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:09,559 Speaker 1: professor of Law, of Public Policy and Women's Studies at 200 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:12,719 Speaker 1: the Heller the Graduate School of Policy and Management at 201 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:28,079 Speaker 1: Brandeis University. Thank you. We are broadcasting alive from the 202 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,960 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Year Ahead conference in our world headquarters here in 203 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 1: New York. And one of the big questions for the 204 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:37,679 Speaker 1: Year of head is in the age of Netflix and 205 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:41,600 Speaker 1: Amazon Prime, how does a company like IMAX compete? And 206 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:45,200 Speaker 1: here to address that is Richard Gelfond, a chief executive 207 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 1: officer of Imax, which is based in Stony Brook, New York, 208 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 1: but he joins us here in our seven thirty one 209 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:53,680 Speaker 1: Lexington headquarters. So, uh can you address that? How do 210 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:56,359 Speaker 1: you how do you compete? I think in certain respects 211 00:12:56,440 --> 00:13:00,199 Speaker 1: the modern streaming trends help a company like i'm X 212 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 1: because streaming, definitionally is on a small device. Usually it's 213 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:06,840 Speaker 1: in your home or in your office. And I think 214 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 1: people want a fuller life than that. I used to say. 215 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 1: You know, if you want to be changed to your cow, 216 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:13,959 Speaker 1: sure that's a that's one way to live your life. 217 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 1: But if you want to get out of your home, 218 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:18,440 Speaker 1: you want something really special to do it. So if 219 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 1: you go to a regular multiplex theater, let's say, and 220 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 1: it smells a popcorn and the uh um, you know, 221 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:27,560 Speaker 1: it's noisy and people are yelling, that might not be 222 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:30,439 Speaker 1: enough of a difference to stop you from streaming and 223 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:33,400 Speaker 1: do something social. But in the case of IMAX, it's 224 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 1: a fabulous experience. It can't be replicated in the home 225 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 1: unless you want to spend millions of dollars. And if 226 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 1: you know, it really provides you with a reason. Um, 227 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:45,679 Speaker 1: last night I was at a Springsteen to play here 228 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 1: in New York on Broadway. I mean I could buy 229 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:50,599 Speaker 1: the I could stream it, I could listen to the 230 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 1: music in lots of ways, but this amazing experience, immersive 231 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:57,599 Speaker 1: experience is why you go. And I think IMAX is 232 00:13:57,640 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 1: part of that trend. All right, So we got the 233 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 1: immerg of experience and obviously the it's great if the movie, 234 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 1: so the experience is a hit, right, I mean, if 235 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 1: people really want to want to do that. Can you 236 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 1: speak to the challenge that you have with the actual 237 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:15,960 Speaker 1: content providers, because we've been following, for example, the report 238 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 1: that Disney at one point was holding negotiations to purchase 239 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 1: Century Fox. Now you are as much a technology company 240 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: as you are a sort of holding to the theater world. 241 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 1: Does having smaller numbers of of of content providers make 242 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 1: it more challenging for you? You know? I think maybe 243 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: the opposite. And the reason I would say that is 244 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 1: because we do blockbuster films. We do you know, larger 245 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 1: than life kind of movies. We did thor this weekend 246 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 1: and we did million dollars worldwide and thor and so 247 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 1: we're not really interested in the mid level and the 248 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 1: small movies. And I think to the extent big content 249 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 1: providers come together, they could afford more budgets and more 250 00:14:56,600 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 1: blockbuster films higher production value, the kinds of things that 251 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 1: really work in Imax. We've also experimented with alternative content, 252 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 1: so we did episodes of the Game of Thrones in Imax. 253 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 1: This year we did a Marvel TV series, the pilots 254 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 1: for in Humans in Imax. So how did they do? Uh? 255 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 1: The they did? Okay? I mean the one on Game 256 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 1: of Thrones was kind of amazing because it was last 257 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 1: year's episodes that you could kind of reruns, you could 258 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 1: get on TV and people paid fifteen dollars for them. 259 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 1: In Humans was was the beginning of a TV series, 260 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 1: which people didn't know, and I think one of the 261 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 1: problems we had. We were really excited about doing Marvel, 262 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: but I think people expected production values commensurate with a 263 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 1: Marvel film, and when it was a TV pilot not 264 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 1: a Marvel film. You know, we did three million dollars, 265 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 1: so it wasn't terrible, but people didn't distinguish that. In 266 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 1: five years from now, do you think that Imax will 267 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 1: be thought of as much as a virtual reality company 268 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 1: as it is? Uh, the massive screen and very big 269 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 1: production kinds of films. I wish that was the case, 270 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 1: but I don't think so. Um, we are playing around 271 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:09,240 Speaker 1: with virtual reality, as you know, and we have a 272 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 1: number of VR test pilots, but um, that's gonna it's 273 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 1: gonna take a while. I think the VR experience is amazing. 274 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 1: Um we we and IMAX have a CEO conference. We 275 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 1: invite speakers in and I invited one person who has 276 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 1: helped invent the technology and another who makes films. I 277 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 1: don't know one to tend scale. I asked them to 278 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 1: rate VR technology today and the films today, and they 279 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 1: both independently said one. So, I think we're trying to 280 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 1: do the best VR there is in the world today, 281 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 1: but I think it's a long way until it gets 282 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 1: where it's going to go. One tension here is the 283 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: amount of money that's required to invest in virtual reality 284 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 1: or bigger and better experiences, paired with the fact that yes, 285 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 1: people want experiences, but there's a limit to how much 286 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 1: they're willing to pay for them. How are you addressing 287 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 1: that tension and how is that sort of challenging your 288 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 1: balance sheet? Well, it's it's not because we're it's not 289 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 1: challenging our balance shee. Because we're doing it as a 290 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 1: pilot and we're eliminating the tension by doing it slowly 291 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 1: and not spending a lot of money. So we're opening 292 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 1: ten pilots around the world. We now have four open 293 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 1: New York, l a UM, Toronto, and in Shanghai, and 294 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: we're monitoring them in in a cost efficient way. So 295 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 1: if it starts slowly, we're not going to spend a 296 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 1: lot of money, and I'm not gonna push it. But 297 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:26,160 Speaker 1: if it takes off and it really works, we're gonna 298 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:28,879 Speaker 1: put a lot more money in. And that's kind of 299 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,119 Speaker 1: what I was addressing. I don't think it's right for 300 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 1: prime time now. I think it's gonna take a number 301 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:36,119 Speaker 1: of years until it gets to the point back to 302 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:39,360 Speaker 1: your question, where it exceeds the image of our company's 303 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 1: big screens. I think it works very well. It's complimentary, 304 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 1: but it's gonna take a while. You mentioned big screens. 305 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:48,360 Speaker 1: I want to talk about a big market China. Tell 306 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 1: us people what you're doing there, because that's a different 307 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 1: You can't just, you know, import what goes on in 308 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 1: one place into another and expected to do well. Well. 309 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 1: That was exactly the model we tried what you're alluded 310 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:02,720 Speaker 1: to in your question, which as I started going to 311 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:06,960 Speaker 1: China almost twenty years ago, and I met with the government, 312 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:10,199 Speaker 1: and I met with studios, and we really tried to 313 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:13,879 Speaker 1: build something that was much more organically Chinese than a 314 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:16,920 Speaker 1: lot of US companies do. So now we have a 315 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty employees in China. We're a public company 316 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:24,119 Speaker 1: on the Hong Kong Stock Exchange. We have a Chinese CEO. 317 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:27,679 Speaker 1: We we have Chinese content in China. So we have 318 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:30,920 Speaker 1: about five hundred theaters now open. We do about ten 319 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:34,119 Speaker 1: percent of the Chinese box office when we're involved with 320 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,439 Speaker 1: the movie, either Chinese movie or a US movie. And 321 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:40,639 Speaker 1: we're as comfortable in Chinese Hollywood as we are in 322 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:43,199 Speaker 1: this Hollywood. Thank you very much for being with us 323 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 1: in our world headquarters. Much appreciated. Richard Gelfont is the 324 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 1: chief executive of Imax Corps. He's all about the experience. 325 00:18:52,160 --> 00:19:08,199 Speaker 1: You're listening to Bloomberg n B I A making a 326 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 1: move today, UM, I want to talk now about well, 327 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 1: I want to bring in Will Marshall. He is the 328 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:15,679 Speaker 1: co founder and the chief executive of Planet based in 329 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:18,880 Speaker 1: San Francisco. And just to kind of set the context, Lisa, 330 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 1: you know, one of the things I like to do 331 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 1: is look about space programs and NASA and In two 332 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 1: thousand and ten, there was a solar satellite, a a 333 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 1: dynamics observatory that was launched by NASA. It weighed sixty 334 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 1: eight hundred pounds and it costs eight hundred and fifty 335 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:40,119 Speaker 1: million dollars to build. That's expensive. Our next guest, Will Marshall, 336 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 1: has a way to maybe bring down the cost of 337 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:43,880 Speaker 1: something like that. Well, thanks for being with us here. 338 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:46,920 Speaker 1: So is that kind of an accurate way to kind 339 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:49,359 Speaker 1: of look at the chronology of what we'd like to 340 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,000 Speaker 1: see happen. Absolutely and what we have done at planet 341 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 1: as miniaturi as satellites. We've taken satellites the size of 342 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:56,919 Speaker 1: a BOS and bring them brought them down. Most of 343 00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:59,120 Speaker 1: the cost of involved with satellites is the launched cost, 344 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:02,200 Speaker 1: and so s d O that you just mentioned, you know, 345 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 1: would have taken up a single whole rocket, and rockets 346 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 1: are expensive. By miniaturizing the satellites, we can launch many 347 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:12,120 Speaker 1: many satellites in one rocket um thus bring the cost 348 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:15,359 Speaker 1: down and therefore the data the cost per unit data 349 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 1: down by many orders of magnitude. And this is possible 350 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:22,640 Speaker 1: because of the leveraging of consumer electronics, which have miniaturized 351 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 1: sensors and processes and hard drives for things like smartphones. 352 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:30,200 Speaker 1: So we leverage that to miniaturize satellites. So how cheap 353 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 1: is a cheap satellite? Um orders a magnitude less than 354 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:36,879 Speaker 1: the one that your colleague just referred to, like a 355 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 1: thousand dollars. Yeah, exactly. We have to sell data, and 356 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: we don't like to talk about this cost of the 357 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:48,439 Speaker 1: satellites themselves, but we brought down the cost of the 358 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 1: imagery by many orders of magnitude. All right, so let's 359 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:54,120 Speaker 1: talk about the practical application of this imagery. First of all, 360 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 1: have you already started to sell that data to a 361 00:20:57,680 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 1: number of different industries. Can you give us a sense 362 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 1: of what they are, how it's being used. Absolutely? Firstly, Yeah, 363 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: we've launched more than two hundred satellites, is the largest 364 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 1: fleet of satellites in history, and we're getting about three 365 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 1: under forwarding million square kilometers of imagery down every day. 366 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 1: We image the entire Earth every single day. What that 367 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 1: enables us to do is rapid change. See rapid changes 368 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 1: over the planet. Um. The industries that are interested in 369 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:24,880 Speaker 1: that include agriculture, consumer mapping, governments. So in agriculture, what 370 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 1: we've what we see is that this the people. We 371 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 1: can help improve crop yields by bearing in season diagnostics, 372 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: so we sell it to big AD companies. We can 373 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 1: tell crop yield on a pixel by pixel basis and 374 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:39,639 Speaker 1: then they can inform the farmer when to add water, 375 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:42,439 Speaker 1: so when to add firdliers during the growing season to 376 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 1: help improve the crop yield. UM in consumer mapping, that's 377 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,239 Speaker 1: companies like Google that buy our data to have up 378 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 1: to date sabaite imagery layers on their on their satellite 379 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 1: imagery layer maps UM and then UM governments use it 380 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:59,919 Speaker 1: from a range of things from security to things like 381 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 1: response to the hurricanes that have been happening here recently, 382 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 1: or the earthquake in Mexico, so disaster response. Can I 383 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:10,160 Speaker 1: ask you a question. Whenever I think about people shooting 384 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 1: things up into the atmosphere and it's sort of satellite 385 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:15,640 Speaker 1: revolving the earth, I think about all the trash or 386 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 1: sort of all the refuse. Is that a problem for you? 387 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 1: Not for us? But it is a problem satellite debris. 388 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 1: Space debris is a big problem. There's there's about thirty 389 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 1: million pieces of man maybe debris orbiting the Earth. I 390 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 1: worked on this for many years when as a NASA. 391 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 1: It's mainly up at higher orbits where the Russians and 392 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:34,639 Speaker 1: the Americans put a lot of their satellites. Back in 393 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 1: the early part of the space agent didn't realize that 394 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:41,639 Speaker 1: this could have this effect of of of where debris 395 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 1: hits debris and then causes more debris that then causes 396 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:46,920 Speaker 1: increases the collision. So we actually have a runaway situation 397 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:50,399 Speaker 1: um in certain altitudes. It's very slow, but just like 398 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:52,639 Speaker 1: climate change, the sooner you nip it in the budda burdder. 399 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 1: Now we stay out of that problem by keeping us 400 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:57,920 Speaker 1: are like way lower in orbits, like more like four 401 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,440 Speaker 1: hundred five hundred kilometers, where that stuff is eight hundred 402 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:04,920 Speaker 1: and twelve hundred kilometers four or five kilometers. There's very 403 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 1: little stuff, and it re enters because of the atmospheric 404 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 1: decay after a couple of years, so it gets quickly 405 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:11,679 Speaker 1: out of the way. But it is a problem we 406 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:14,639 Speaker 1: have to address. What about the problem of raising money. 407 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:18,200 Speaker 1: It doesn't seem like it's a problem because you're smiling. Sure, 408 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:22,159 Speaker 1: we've raised a bunch of capital from venture capitalists in 409 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,920 Speaker 1: the Bay Area who are interested both in the commercial 410 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 1: applications of this data and also the fact that it 411 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 1: can do a lot of good. Um. So there's a 412 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 1: huge amount of good that can come from this data set. 413 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 1: To do you ever have to refuse to sell your 414 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 1: data to certain governments that you have to vet. We 415 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:41,159 Speaker 1: do have to vet um. I mean it is important 416 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 1: to to be stewards of this data to try and 417 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: have the most positive impact, and of course economic impact 418 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 1: for us, we care about revenue. But the point is 419 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 1: that that that yes, sir, and and and there are 420 00:23:57,760 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: certain regulations. Of course we can't sell the datas in 421 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 1: a well iran and think things like that. Thank you 422 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 1: so much for joining us. It's really fascinating. Well well 423 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 1: Marshall co founder and chief executive officer of Planet, which 424 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 1: is based in San Francisco. Also uh, formerly of NASA, 425 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 1: and uh, fascinating stories. I have to I have to 426 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 1: just plug a story. The Ashley Vans of Bloomberg business 427 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 1: Week wrote that include a lot of really colorful details 428 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:25,479 Speaker 1: about your past. I highly recommended that The title of 429 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:29,120 Speaker 1: the article is the tiny satellites ushering in the New 430 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:44,640 Speaker 1: Space Revolution. He is one of the world's most successful 431 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:51,119 Speaker 1: and wealthiest individuals. The er Yes, there you go, Well done, 432 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 1: all right then, let's just bring him in Eric Shatzker 433 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 1: as our editor at large for Bloomberg News, and Eric, 434 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 1: let's clear up him when we're really talking. I'm just saying, 435 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:04,399 Speaker 1: I'm hoping a little maybe just it rubs off a 436 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:08,040 Speaker 1: little bit, but seriously, the gentleman I'm really speaking about 437 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 1: is Al Walid bin Talal al Salt, which is his 438 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:15,959 Speaker 1: full name of Saudi prince. Yes, indeed, and you know 439 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 1: him perhaps better than most of us, because you have 440 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 1: spent quite a bit of time with him over a 441 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 1: period of years, and you most recently had a late 442 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 1: night dinner with him, and that really doesn't go anywhere 443 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 1: near describing the experience, and wondering if you could tell 444 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 1: us who he is to you and your experience with him, 445 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 1: and then maybe give us your perspective on his most 446 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 1: recent arrest by the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia of 447 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,359 Speaker 1: course happy to. Of course, the reason we are talking 448 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 1: about Al Walid bin Talala's that he was swept up 449 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 1: in his anti corruption probe along with ten other princes, 450 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 1: a bunch of former ministers, some Saudi businessmen, and his 451 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:56,920 Speaker 1: whereabouts today and the whereabouts of all those other people 452 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:02,200 Speaker 1: are unknown. I saw him less than two weeks ago 453 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 1: in Saudi Arabia. I was there for the Future Investment Initiative. 454 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 1: This was a financial and economic conference put on by 455 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 1: Mohammed Been Salmon and the Public Investment Fund, which is 456 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:15,680 Speaker 1: Saudi Arabia's sovereign well fund. Mohammed Been Salmon of course, 457 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:17,439 Speaker 1: being the Crown Prince, the son of the current king, 458 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 1: King Salmon. And after that conference was over on Thursday, 459 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 1: I went out to al Wilds desert camp as part 460 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:31,040 Speaker 1: of a small caravan. We got there, we spent the 461 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 1: evening in the desert. It involved, as you said, a 462 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,959 Speaker 1: dinner which was quite lavish. It involved watching a soccer 463 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 1: match in the open air on some large screen TVs 464 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 1: that he had set up. We sat on these elaborate 465 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:51,359 Speaker 1: gigantic rugs against cushions. Um. We talked about politics, which 466 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 1: is one of his favorite subjects us politics. In fact, 467 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,120 Speaker 1: we talked about We talked excuse me about Breggsit, which 468 00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:00,439 Speaker 1: he described to me as stupid. We talked about stocks, 469 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:02,880 Speaker 1: because as you may recall, that was sort of super Thursday. 470 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:07,080 Speaker 1: Google was reporting, or Alphabet if you prefer, Amazon was reporting, 471 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 1: and Alva Lead is an investor in tech stocks has 472 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 1: been for a long time as a current investor in Twitter, 473 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 1: as a current investor in Lift and we uh, we 474 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:21,480 Speaker 1: spent a very pleasant evening together, and over the course 475 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:29,520 Speaker 1: of those several hours, I developed no inkling whatsoever that 476 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:33,120 Speaker 1: all of this was going to transpire only ten days later. 477 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:35,440 Speaker 1: And this is what I wanted to get out with you. 478 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,000 Speaker 1: I mean, you said in your article that you wrote 479 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:40,879 Speaker 1: on the Bloomberg you did not get any sense, uh, 480 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:42,920 Speaker 1: there was anything imminent through earth that he had any 481 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,440 Speaker 1: sense of that. But just reading through the tea leaves 482 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:50,959 Speaker 1: what could potentially have put him in the crosshairs of 483 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,359 Speaker 1: the current air apparent and frankly, the the factor ruler 484 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 1: right now of Saudi Arabia. There's probably two things. One 485 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 1: is the I e And this is really a theory 486 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 1: because we haven't heard from him on the subject himself, 487 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:10,480 Speaker 1: that Mohammed bin Salman, acting with the full support of 488 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:19,399 Speaker 1: his father, King Salmon, is determined to eliminate, if you will, uh, 489 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 1: and I don't mean that any euphemistic way, eliminate descent 490 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,520 Speaker 1: or freedom of expression in Saudi Arabia while he is 491 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 1: trying to consolidate power. And the second is that possibly 492 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:36,200 Speaker 1: Prince Al Walid in some way, shape or form, represented 493 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 1: a different kind of a threat. Now what kind of 494 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 1: a threat could it be? Under the old king, King Abdullah, 495 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 1: there were, if you will, worrying factions in the royal family, 496 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 1: and the fact that they were all pitted against one 497 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 1: another in a strange way, maintained a sense of stability. 498 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 1: This king and his son of approaching uh Saudi politics, 499 00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 1: if you will, Saudi rule in a totally different way. 500 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 1: It is much more autocratic and the power is centralized 501 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 1: under Mohammed bin Salman, and so if al will lead 502 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 1: were part and I don't have any facts to corroborate this. 503 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 1: If he were part of one of those other factions, 504 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 1: perhaps the crown prince perceived him as some kind of 505 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 1: a threat. Let's also add to the fact, add to 506 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 1: that that he is wealthy, independently wealthy. Doesn't get his 507 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 1: money from a Ramco if you will, like almost all 508 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 1: the other Saudi royals do. He's made it as an investor. 509 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 1: He's really well connected. He's personal friends with Bill Gates 510 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:39,320 Speaker 1: and Rupert Murdoch, for example, and as a result, he 511 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 1: wields influence, and perhaps that influence presents a threat to 512 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 1: the crown. But again these are all theories. Now let's 513 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 1: talk about the other one, which is the descent freedom 514 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,960 Speaker 1: of expression part and further for that, we actually do 515 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 1: have a piece of evidence. Back in February of two 516 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:58,200 Speaker 1: thousand fifteen, Al Wilead had started an Arabic language news 517 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,360 Speaker 1: channel based in Bahrain and that news news channel, i 518 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:03,959 Speaker 1: should add, actually had a partnership agreement with Bloomberg. We 519 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 1: were going to provide them with information and with data. 520 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 1: And that channel was shut down by the Bahraini government 521 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,640 Speaker 1: on day one. It never reopened. Now it appears that 522 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 1: the cardinal mistake that Al Arab that was the name 523 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 1: of the news channel made was interviewing a Bahraini opposition politician, 524 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,880 Speaker 1: because the Bahraini government subsequently issued a statement saying that 525 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 1: the channel had failed to respect the need to fight 526 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 1: terrorism and extremism, and it was a signal that Al 527 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 1: will lead in the channel itself had misread, if you will, 528 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 1: the degree to which bahrain and more importantly, Saudi Arabia's 529 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 1: economic sponsor and neighbor, were willing to tolerate dissent and 530 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 1: freedom of expression. And while on the surface, it appears 531 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 1: that Mohammad bin Selman is modernizing the Saudi economy and 532 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:56,000 Speaker 1: liberalizing social values, and he wants to return to a 533 00:30:56,120 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 1: pre Wahabi form of Islamism. Uh. He does not appear 534 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 1: to tolerate dissent well. So if under the surface there 535 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 1: was a lot more of that going on, he perceived 536 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 1: al will lead as a voice of free expression, as 537 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 1: a voice of descent, that too, may have been one 538 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:20,400 Speaker 1: of the reasons to take him into custody. Officially, this 539 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 1: is according to an official in the Saudi government whom 540 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,160 Speaker 1: Bloomberg spoke to. The charges against him our money laundering, 541 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:28,719 Speaker 1: bribery and extortion. So they have nothing to do with dissent. 542 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 1: They have nothing to do ostensibly with royal politics. But 543 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:39,640 Speaker 1: we have to at least contemplate the possibility that there 544 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 1: are other things involved. Every conspiracy theorist is heading in 545 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 1: that direction. Of course, there is a possibility that some 546 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 1: of those charges are based on fact, but the Saudi 547 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 1: government has not shared with us any of that evidence 548 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 1: and probably won't because it doesn't operate. The criminal justice 549 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 1: system doesn't operate there the way that it does here. 550 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 1: We're told that due process will be granted to these people, 551 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,239 Speaker 1: that they're going to get legal representation that they're going 552 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:11,800 Speaker 1: to have a day in court, But who knows whether 553 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 1: that procedure bears any resemblance to what we know here 554 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 1: or what we know if you will in the Western world. 555 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 1: Eric Schatsker, thank you so much for joining us and 556 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:22,720 Speaker 1: for writing the story. I highly recommended it. I dined 557 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 1: with Olive a lead in the desert days before his arrest. 558 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 1: Eric Schasker is an editor at large for Bloomberg News 559 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,480 Speaker 1: and New joins us here where we are broadcasting live 560 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 1: from Bloomberg's The Year Ahead Summit in our New York headquarters. 561 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 1: Fascinating story. Quickly, just how was the food? It's pretty good. 562 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,120 Speaker 1: When you're done, I have to say. I had some lamb, 563 00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:45,800 Speaker 1: I had some shrimp, I had some rice salads. It's um. 564 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 1: There's a lot on offer, at least two dozen courses. 565 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:50,680 Speaker 1: I was kind of picking. I could deal with a 566 00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 1: course right now. This is Bloomberg. Thanks for listening to 567 00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:01,000 Speaker 1: the Bloomberg P and L podcast. You can subscribe and 568 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:05,040 Speaker 1: listen to interviews at Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, or whatever podcast 569 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,520 Speaker 1: platform you prefer. I'm pim Fox. I'm on Twitter at 570 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 1: pim Fox. I'm on Twitter at Lisa Abramo. It's one 571 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,040 Speaker 1: before the podcast. You can always catch us worldwide on 572 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:15,880 Speaker 1: Bluebirg Radio