1 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:16,120 Speaker 1: Shauna Game is a certified financial planner, a financial trauma specialist, 2 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:19,240 Speaker 1: and the author of the new book Unraveling Your Relationship 3 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:23,079 Speaker 1: with Money, which blends memoir and research to help women 4 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: ditch shame, heal their money story, and rebuild their lives 5 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 1: from the inside out. Shawna is changing the way we 6 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,520 Speaker 1: talk about money, not in the here's your budget, good 7 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:35,919 Speaker 1: luck kind of way, but in the who are you 8 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 1: underneath your money story? Hi? 9 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:41,480 Speaker 2: Shauna, Hi, I'm so glad to be here. 10 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:44,239 Speaker 1: I'm so grateful that you're here. And I'm just going 11 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 1: to clue the listeners in. I had a migraine last week. 12 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 1: This has been one of those weeks, and obviously my 13 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: listeners know me pretty well astrologically. It was a wild 14 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 1: week last week, and I was. 15 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 2: Very impacted by that what's your sign? 16 00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 1: Well, I'm a cancer son Moon. Are you a cancer? 17 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 2: Yes? I am. 18 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, stop yes. Okay, Well, this just makes 19 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 1: it all makes so much more sense. At least I 20 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 1: know you can understand me, because those waves last week 21 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:15,840 Speaker 1: were wild. And then as I was getting ready for 22 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 1: this morning's podcast, I was listening to some other stuff. 23 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:19,559 Speaker 1: It sounds like we're in for another ride this week, 24 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: so November is off to a great start. 25 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 2: But we are. 26 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 1: Recording super early in the morning, and my listeners also 27 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:31,400 Speaker 1: know I am never super aware or alert in the mornings, 28 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 1: so for warning everyone, it is early, and we'll see 29 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:37,400 Speaker 1: what happens. But I'm super excited to talk about this 30 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:41,399 Speaker 1: with you. I love the way you reframe money like 31 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:44,759 Speaker 1: just in general, and we'll want to talk about all 32 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 1: the trauma that can be related to money, because I 33 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: don't think a lot of people talk about that. But 34 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 1: when we start, I always like to give the listeners 35 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 1: a little backstory on people and how did you get here, 36 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 1: and those kind of pieces to that story. So how 37 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 1: did you get to the place where you're writing books 38 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: about helping people here that heal their trauma around money. 39 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 2: Of course, it's a crazy, you know story, as most 40 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 2: of us have. But I grew up with a father 41 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 2: who'd been in the financial industry his whole career, so 42 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 2: I was already kind of used to that language. But 43 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 2: if you would have told me when I was like, 44 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 2: you know, ten, that I would be talking about money 45 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 2: creating content about money, I would have really laughed in 46 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 2: your face. I have always been a performer when I 47 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 2: was in college. I started at the time it was 48 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:34,080 Speaker 2: the first national student film festival, and I ran that 49 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 2: for five years and ended up actually selling it to 50 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:40,360 Speaker 2: a Hollywood producer. And after that, I was like, I 51 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 2: have this like weird mix bag of skills. What do 52 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 2: I do? So I went back and got an MBA 53 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:48,240 Speaker 2: and my dad at the time was running a small 54 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 2: firm and he's like, I'm kind of bored, Like do 55 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 2: you want to see if we could work together? And 56 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 2: I was like, yeah, okay, why not? So from day 57 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 2: one we were working with people who had massive estates, 58 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 2: lived in Los Angeles for many, many years, and what 59 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:05,800 Speaker 2: I was seeing was people who had a lot of 60 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 2: money and my MBA cohorts who knew nothing about personal finance. 61 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 2: I was seeing the same patterns that people have around money, 62 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 2: their fears, their emotions where they get stuck. And so 63 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 2: I was like, this is really interesting. I didn't have 64 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 2: a language for it, really, but I started to do 65 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 2: what I love, which was speaking and writing and talking 66 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 2: about money, and became a certified financial planner, worked with 67 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 2: women entrepreneurs, and really it was around gosh, I would 68 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 2: say ten twelve years ago I started to notice like, oh, 69 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 2: I'm going to help people with their money, and they're 70 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 2: having all these emotions that come up and it's not 71 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 2: actually about the money. And then I started saying like, wow, 72 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 2: I'm actually having the same things happened to me and 73 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 2: I'm a money expert, Like there's something going on here. 74 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 2: And so I started a podcast in twenty fifteen that 75 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 2: I just ended up selling this year, and that was 76 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 2: really my time of like developing kind of my own 77 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 2: language around money and specifically for women. It's it was 78 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 2: just like, Okay, we just need to rebrand this, because 79 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 2: money is emotion first, it is numbers way down the line, 80 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 2: and so what I really specialize is kind of women 81 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 2: and in kind of that midlife period and also the 82 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 2: role that like perimenopause and menopause plays into our money 83 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:28,720 Speaker 2: and how that shifts things. And so there's something that 84 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:31,159 Speaker 2: I that I created kind of branded it called the 85 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 2: emotional economy, which is all of us have our own 86 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 2: emotional economy, right about how we interact with money and 87 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 2: the things that trigger us and the things that don't, 88 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:42,479 Speaker 2: and things that bring us shame and our stories and 89 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:46,039 Speaker 2: there's just there's so much going on underneath the surface 90 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 2: that no one is really out there with you know 91 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 2: expertise talking about So I blend these kind of weird 92 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:57,599 Speaker 2: things together storytelling trauma expertise as well as with the 93 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 2: actual you know numbers to help people really get to 94 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 2: a place of finding some sort of piece and ease 95 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 2: around money. 96 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:10,039 Speaker 1: You mentioned women and that you work specifically with women. 97 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 1: Do you notice a big difference between the way women 98 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:14,040 Speaker 1: handle money and the way men handle money. 99 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 2: Actually, there's not a huge difference, I would say for women. 100 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 2: If we look at the way trauma works around money, 101 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:27,359 Speaker 2: it is also generational. So if we look back to 102 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 2: our grandmas and our great grandmos, and we go back 103 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 2: that line and we think about how they did not 104 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 2: have access to money right They couldn't get loans, they 105 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 2: couldn't open businesses without a man, they couldn't even get 106 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:41,359 Speaker 2: a credit card till the seventies. So all of that 107 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 2: trauma is in all of our bloodlines. So I think 108 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 2: that just inherently makes us a little bit different. And 109 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 2: then we have the bodily shifts that go on. Even 110 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 2: in we're in our years where we're getting our periods right, 111 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 2: we still have these hormonal transitions that happen every single 112 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 2: month and these change our nervous system, and it also 113 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 2: changes our dopamine, our serotonin, all of our neurotransmitters, and 114 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 2: all of that impacts how we spend and save our money. 115 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 2: And so I think from that expect women are different. 116 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 2: But if we look at like, you know, shame is 117 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:20,039 Speaker 2: kind of the number one thing that we all share 118 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 2: in common, all genders, but men they have a little 119 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 2: bit of a harder time kind of getting to that 120 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 2: place where they're like, Okay, yeah, this actually is shame 121 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 2: around money. But there's there's a lot going on under 122 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:33,920 Speaker 2: the surface for all of us. 123 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:38,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, I had never thought about the hormonal impact of 124 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 1: our relationship with money, But even as you were saying that, 125 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:44,039 Speaker 1: I was thinking to myself throughout the month, the way 126 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 1: that I spend money is very different. Like right before 127 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 1: my period, I am all about luxury, feeling good, you know, 128 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:55,839 Speaker 1: whatever it is. So it's if I'm feeling lazy and 129 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 1: I don't want to cook, I'm going to order in food, 130 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 1: you know, things like that. But that is not we're 131 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 1: taking into consideration the financial implications there. You know, it's 132 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:07,279 Speaker 1: all about the way it makes me feel. But men 133 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: don't really go through that in the same way because 134 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 1: they're the same every day. 135 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, imagine I wouldn't that be? 136 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 1: I know, I'm like, what would I be? 137 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 2: Like? 138 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 1: I don't even know who I would be. 139 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 2: But you bring up a really good point, and that's 140 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 2: something powerful. I think that when we talk about like 141 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 2: traditional personal finance, that is never factored into the equation, 142 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 2: and it makes a huge impact because if we're trying 143 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:35,239 Speaker 2: to get to a certain goal around our money, whatever 144 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 2: that is, if it's payoff debt or buy a new house, 145 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 2: or start a business or retire early, whatever, we have 146 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 2: to factor in that emotional piece because that is going 147 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 2: to change, right. And so if we can build like 148 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 2: a system around those times where when you need to 149 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 2: spend more right and you need to just order out 150 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 2: that that is already like kind of built in the equation, right. 151 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 2: And so when we can think about it from that perspective, 152 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 2: I think that we can do away with a lot 153 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 2: of shame or a lot of whatever that word is 154 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 2: for you. But for a lot of people it's like, oh, 155 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 2: I should know better, I should be better at this, 156 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 2: Like I can't believe I made that choice, and so 157 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 2: we just kind of go in like a hamster wheel 158 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 2: with our thoughts and feelings around money, and it's all internal, 159 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 2: so we just kind of walk around feeling, you know, 160 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 2: really crappy about ourselves when it's just it's very unnecessary. 161 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:30,119 Speaker 1: Right. Well, obviously we've used the word trauma a couple times, 162 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 1: and that's such a buzzword in our society these days. 163 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 1: But you say, money trauma is not only real, but 164 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 1: it's universal, that it's just across the board. What were 165 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:41,679 Speaker 1: some of the things that you were immediately recognizing when 166 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 1: you started working with people around that issue, and then 167 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 1: what made you name it money trauma? 168 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 2: We can just simplify it, right, it's just a fancy 169 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 2: word for like ickiness, right, just icky feelings, ikey thoughts, 170 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 2: and for a lot of us that comes from how 171 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 2: we were raised right and in really good situations because 172 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 2: our parents weren't taught about money. They certainly weren't taught 173 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:07,959 Speaker 2: about feelings, right, so they didn't know what they were 174 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 2: doing either. But there's a scientific study that says by 175 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 2: age seven, our money behaviors and personality is pretty set, 176 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 2: right seven seven, So between zero and seven, we're picking 177 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 2: up all these cues about money, about shame, about belief systems, 178 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 2: about all of these things and they're just sort of 179 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 2: imprinted into our you know, subconscious and our nervous system. 180 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:35,679 Speaker 2: And so as adults we're out here, I often say, 181 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 2: we're like seven year olds driving a financial bus and 182 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 2: like an adult body, and we're just kind of like 183 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 2: running into each other because we just we don't know 184 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:46,200 Speaker 2: how to kind of unpack that. So a lot of 185 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 2: it comes from childhood, but it could also be really 186 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 2: simple things like we tend to think money trauma is 187 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 2: like I don't know, maybe you lost your house, or 188 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 2: you lost your job or like these big things things. 189 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 2: But it could also be specifically when we're talking about money, 190 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:07,439 Speaker 2: like maybe you forgot to pay a bill once and 191 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 2: then suddenly your credit score dipped and that little kind 192 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 2: of nuanced bit that no one else knew made you 193 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 2: feel like, Okay, I'm just I'm terrible with money. So 194 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 2: every time you go to look at like your banking app, 195 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:25,359 Speaker 2: you have this sort of somatic, this like body experience 196 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 2: where you just freak out and you're like, why is 197 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 2: this happening? Right, And it's just we've our nervous system 198 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 2: has kind of stored these moments around money, and so 199 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 2: anytime we interact with it, we just freak out. There's 200 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 2: also a lot of trauma in relationships around money, and 201 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 2: you know that's something is as well. There's some you know, 202 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 2: severe financial abuse and trauma that happens in relationships. But again, 203 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 2: it could also be very nuanced. It could be that 204 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 2: you feel guilty for the salary you make and your 205 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 2: partner doesn't make as much, and that almost creates a 206 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 2: sense of trauma because every time you have to have 207 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 2: a conversation about money, or you have to make a 208 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 2: buying decision, it brings up all of these stories and 209 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 2: belief systems. So there's a lot of ways that this 210 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 2: idea of trauma shows up. But really, I think the 211 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 2: best way to notice it is just any way that 212 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:24,200 Speaker 2: you're interacting with money. If you feel like your palm sweaty, 213 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 2: or like your heart's racing or your shoulders are getting stiff, like, 214 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 2: that's a clue that something is going on here. There's 215 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 2: some sort of story or some trauma kind of locked here, 216 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 2: and so you can use that as the place to 217 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 2: just go, Okay, what is this about? It's true? Is 218 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:42,680 Speaker 2: this a lie? What do I need to think about 219 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 2: in this moment? 220 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:47,439 Speaker 1: It's interesting because as I was just learning about your 221 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 1: work and the book, I was thinking, this is the 222 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:53,680 Speaker 1: first money book that I have ever or just any 223 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 1: sort of like conversation around money in general too, that 224 00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 1: I have ever witnessed that doesn't start with actual numbers, 225 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:04,560 Speaker 1: like that is typically how we think about money, right, 226 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:07,719 Speaker 1: And you start to think budgets, And the truth for 227 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:10,840 Speaker 1: me is my brain immediately shuts down when those things 228 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:12,959 Speaker 1: get brought into the picture because I'm not a math girl, 229 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 1: you know, like that has never been my thing. But 230 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 1: as you're talking about trauma, I was thinking, this is 231 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 1: the way I've healed every other part of my life, 232 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:23,320 Speaker 1: and it's really interesting that I've never thought about it 233 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 1: in relation to money. You know, we start with like 234 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 1: the root causes, and that's what we're talking about a 235 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 1: lot on this podcast. So I'm curious in your work, 236 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:34,840 Speaker 1: what was the reframe like when you were like, wait 237 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 1: a second, we don't need to start with budgets. We 238 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 1: don't need to start with money or numbers. We need 239 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 1: to start with like what is the root? How did 240 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 1: that look? We don't need to start with money or numbers, 241 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 1: we need to start with like what is the root? 242 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 2: How did that look, I mean for me and also 243 00:12:57,360 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 2: for the people I was working with, like a very 244 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 2: freeing experience, and a lot of people before I had 245 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 2: like a language around this, a lot of people that 246 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:08,600 Speaker 2: I would work with where we would sit down and 247 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:10,559 Speaker 2: like the first question I would ask is tell me 248 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 2: how you feel about money? And they would always look 249 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:14,439 Speaker 2: at me a little strange, like, what do you mean 250 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 2: how do I feel about it? I'm like, really, how 251 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 2: do you just tell me the first word that comes 252 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 2: to your mind? And whatever that was, I would just 253 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 2: continue to dig a little bit deeper, a little bit deeper, 254 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 2: a little bit deeper until we got to some sort 255 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:29,720 Speaker 2: of like actual foundational meaning, Oh, you're always nervous about 256 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:33,840 Speaker 2: money because your parents always fought about money and even 257 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:36,200 Speaker 2: though there was money, I mean whatever, you know, like 258 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:40,239 Speaker 2: there's all of us. There's like a different variation of this. Okay, 259 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:44,680 Speaker 2: so now you are bringing that into your current relationship 260 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:48,720 Speaker 2: with money, like, let's examine that. And so it was 261 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 2: really about going through this process of helping people kind 262 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 2: of uncover some of these things and saying, Okay, well, 263 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 2: let's let's try to rewrite this a little bit, like 264 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:00,160 Speaker 2: what do we want this to look like? Going forward. 265 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 2: And so we would go through this process and we 266 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:07,560 Speaker 2: would bring up numbers like way down the line, and 267 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:10,320 Speaker 2: I think for people there was just for me and 268 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 2: for the people I was sitting across, there was just 269 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 2: these aha moments of like, oh, okay, wait, there's something 270 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 2: more to this than just credit card debt right, or 271 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 2: my credit score isn't where I want it to be. 272 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 2: And I love that process because it's like an awakening, 273 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 2: just like you're saying, where people are like, oh, I've 274 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 2: never thought about money this way. I never thought there 275 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 2: could be like a therapeutic experience around it that could 276 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 2: lead to a place where yeah, I feel a lot 277 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 2: freer or I feel a sense of Okay, wait a minute, 278 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 2: I'm not bad with money, Like I can actually do 279 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 2: this thing. And so that's just the goal is to 280 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 2: try and get people to a place of empowerment. And 281 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 2: I just have developed over the years, like all of 282 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 2: these tools and games and you know, little like reset 283 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 2: strategies to kind of throw it people just to help 284 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 2: us interrupt the nervous system, because, as I say, like 285 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 2: the nervous system fires before the budgeting brain fires. So 286 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 2: if your nervous system is always anxious, and nervous around money. 287 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 2: It doesn't matter what we do with the numbers, it's 288 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 2: not going to sink in. You're gonna end up calling 289 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 2: you back in two three months and being like this 290 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 2: doesn't work. And so I feel like the financial industry 291 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 2: has been traditionally male, right, and they charge a fair 292 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 2: amount of money for people to work with them, and 293 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 2: it doesn't usually lend the results that people want, and 294 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 2: so it just keeps them in a cycle of feeling 295 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 2: really terrible about money. 296 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 1: I'm dying that we talked about your astrology at the beginning, 297 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 1: because I'm like, tell me you're a cancer sign and 298 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 1: a pisc's moon without telling me based on your work. 299 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 1: Because you're not just looking at the facts, You're like, 300 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 1: what does that make you feel? You know, which is 301 00:15:57,520 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 1: exactly how I would approach anything, like you want to 302 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 1: the feelings behind it. 303 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 2: You know. It catches people off guard. It's really fun 304 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 2: because when people start opening up and sharing like, oh, 305 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 2: this experience and this story and this and oh my gosh, 306 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 2: I didn't and when they start noticing like oh, every 307 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 2: time I, you know, grab my phone to look at 308 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 2: my banking app, like I literally can feel my heart, 309 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 2: you know, racing, Like I like, I'm I'm literally gonna 310 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 2: have to like run out of the room. And I'm like, yeah, okay, 311 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 2: well let's set up some boundaries around that. You know, 312 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 2: people are like, what do you mean boundaries? I'm like, 313 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 2: do you know that? We could say on every Sunday, 314 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:41,120 Speaker 2: for one minute, you're gonna look at your banking app 315 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 2: and when a minute is up, you're gonna put your 316 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 2: phone away. And they're like, what, I can do that? 317 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 2: Of course you can, you can. So it's you know, 318 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 2: it's helping people create a system around money that actually 319 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 2: moves you to a place where you almost don't even 320 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 2: have to think about it because the numbers is happening 321 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 2: in the background. But more importantly, we're dealing with all 322 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:08,359 Speaker 2: of the emotional stuff so we can make sure the 323 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 2: numbers are doing what we want them to do. And 324 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 2: it's certainly not perfection, Like I tell people, like, if 325 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:16,679 Speaker 2: you get this right like sixty or seventy percent of 326 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 2: the time, beautiful. 327 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:21,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, but isn't that every healing modality. You know, we 328 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 1: don't do it perfectly. But I love too the part 329 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:26,400 Speaker 1: you said about wait, I can do that, Like we've 330 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 1: created all these rules in our world that we live by, 331 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:32,679 Speaker 1: and we don't really ask the question of why is 332 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:35,200 Speaker 1: that the rule though, or why is that the way 333 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 1: that we've structured this? You know? And I really hear 334 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 1: a lot of that in your work. Is you're just 335 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: asking the whys I. 336 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 2: Am, you know, And I'm always trying to figure out 337 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:49,160 Speaker 2: because money is this ginormous taboo topic and it feels 338 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:53,200 Speaker 2: very solo, right because you feel like what you're experiencing 339 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:56,199 Speaker 2: around money, there's no way anyone else is experiencing that, 340 00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 2: and there's also no way you're going to go talk 341 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:00,640 Speaker 2: to anyone else around that. And so what I do 342 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 2: is come in and I'm like, wait a minute, A, 343 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:07,119 Speaker 2: there are no original mistakes. I can tell you that 344 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 2: if we lined a hundred of us up, we have 345 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:13,479 Speaker 2: all made basically the same mistake, different variations, different numbers, 346 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 2: So you know, there's nothing original. And two, if we 347 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 2: actually started talking about it like the way we're talking 348 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 2: about it here, it helps us get to a place 349 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 2: where it's not so scary. So one of the things 350 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 2: that I do is I actually create these baking workshops 351 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:34,400 Speaker 2: because I love to baking. Baking, yes, okay, and we 352 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 2: bake and while we're baking, we talk about money, right, 353 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:44,359 Speaker 2: I infuse in it language because baking is emotional. A 354 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:46,359 Speaker 2: lot of people feel like they can't do it. A 355 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 2: lot of people feel like they can't do it. But 356 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 2: when you've baked something like, you feel really proud of yourself. 357 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 2: And so what I do through the whole process is 358 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:59,399 Speaker 2: help women kind of expose parts of themselves around money 359 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:02,119 Speaker 2: that they didn't think. We're accessible. We talk about identity, 360 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 2: we talk about what we really want, we talk about enoughness, 361 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:07,159 Speaker 2: we talk about all of these things that actually have 362 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 2: nothing to do with numbers, but have everything to do 363 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:12,400 Speaker 2: with numbers. And so I use that as like an 364 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 2: experience to kind of open up the brain and the 365 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 2: nervous system so that when we get to that numbers piece, 366 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:22,160 Speaker 2: it actually is, you know, we have something we can 367 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 2: stick to. 368 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 1: You just mentioned the word identities, and it pinged something 369 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:27,879 Speaker 1: for me, because I want to break that down a 370 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 1: little bit. I feel like a lot of people might 371 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 1: be listening thinking, yeah, I'm all right with money, or 372 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 1: just not really connecting to their own relationship with money specifically, 373 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: and so I like to give them a little bit 374 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 1: of a breakdown of like some of the ways this 375 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:45,120 Speaker 1: might look which I think the identities piece of your 376 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 1: work could be a really good place to do that. 377 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 1: So can you talk a little bit about the different 378 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 1: identities you see in relation to I think specifically women 379 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 1: was what mostly you were talking about in relation to money. 380 00:19:57,400 --> 00:19:59,719 Speaker 2: We all have we can call an identity, we can 381 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 2: call it personality and behavior system whatever it is around money, right, 382 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 2: And there's all sorts of different names, but basically, we 383 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 2: have somebody who is always anxious nervous around money, right, 384 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 2: who does their go to no matter what it could 385 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 2: be good news, it could be bad news, their body's 386 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 2: immediately going to go to an anxious state. Right, So 387 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 2: we have that person. We have somebody else who is 388 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:27,160 Speaker 2: just kind of like going to go for everything, right, 389 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 2: is going to like hit for the fences. This is 390 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:31,919 Speaker 2: who I am, who is always going to go for 391 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 2: the big and kind of gets lost in the details. 392 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:39,920 Speaker 2: That type of person. Then we have the reverse of that, right, 393 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:44,480 Speaker 2: the person who is so into the microscopic details that 394 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 2: they can't see the forest, right, can't see the forest 395 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 2: through the trees. And then we have also, you know, 396 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 2: each one of us is more predominantly either a spender 397 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 2: or saver, and there isn't a better or worse. There's 398 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:01,199 Speaker 2: just knowing kind of who you are are. So I 399 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:05,159 Speaker 2: think understanding like, am I somebody who's always nervous around money? 400 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 2: Am I somebody who is you know, locked in the details, 401 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 2: or someone who kind of sees a big vision? And 402 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 2: then am I more a spender or a saver? And 403 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 2: so when we know those different pieces, then we can 404 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:20,199 Speaker 2: get in there and figure out, Okay, what is a 405 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:24,120 Speaker 2: system that is gonna work best for you? So it's 406 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 2: gonna play to your strengths. We also, you know, have 407 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:29,160 Speaker 2: some support coming on the things that you're maybe not 408 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:32,679 Speaker 2: so strong on, and that is gonna help you, you know, 409 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:35,520 Speaker 2: in this place around your motions not feel like you're 410 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 2: triggered all of the time. So there's that part of identity. 411 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 2: But there's also a part where a lot of us 412 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:45,919 Speaker 2: have and I was guilty of this myself. We have 413 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 2: associated money with who we are as a human. And 414 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 2: so I like to tell people like, money is not 415 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 2: a personality trait, right, I wouldn't walk around and say 416 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 2: you have brown hair, and you know, you're wearing a 417 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:03,400 Speaker 2: gray sweatshirt and you have brown eyes, I think, and 418 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 2: you're also money, like I wouldn't use that right And 419 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 2: so we though have created a society in a system 420 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 2: where we've labeled that. It's so true, and so a 421 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:19,359 Speaker 2: lot of times we're stuck because of money. We're either 422 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,439 Speaker 2: not making a career decision because of money tied to 423 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 2: our identity, or we're making one maybe we shouldn't because 424 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:30,399 Speaker 2: of our identity around money, even in relationships. So really 425 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:35,359 Speaker 2: I think thinking about what role does money currently play 426 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 2: in you who you are as a human and what 427 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:41,480 Speaker 2: role do you want it to play, and can we 428 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 2: separate who you are as human from whatever is in 429 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 2: your bank account. That's really important because that if we 430 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:54,120 Speaker 2: can get a gap there, then we can really work 431 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 2: on the emotional piece where no matter what happens, ups, downs, backwards, 432 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:03,639 Speaker 2: phone words, we're not tied to that being how we 433 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 2: show up in the world. 434 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 1: Well, it's not tied to your worth. Which is so 435 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:10,359 Speaker 1: interesting that you bring this up, because we've talked about 436 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 1: this a lot on the podcast that since the pandemic 437 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 1: specifically because you know, like for me in my day 438 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 1: to day job, the world completely shut down and so 439 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,399 Speaker 1: I didn't have a job for almost felt like almost 440 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 1: two years, and that was a long time, money being 441 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:27,920 Speaker 1: a big piece of that time. That was really stressful 442 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:29,159 Speaker 1: for a lot of people, and I think a lot 443 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:31,960 Speaker 1: of people would still resonate with that, Like I don't 444 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,960 Speaker 1: feel like we fully have found our footing again since 445 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:38,360 Speaker 1: the pandemic, But so much of the work I personally 446 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:41,440 Speaker 1: have had to do around that was about not attaching 447 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:45,679 Speaker 1: the money piece to who I am as a person. 448 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 1: And I wasn't even thinking about the fact that I've 449 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:50,720 Speaker 1: been doing that until you just worded it in the 450 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 1: way of like we describe it as a personality trait, 451 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 1: Like what is that? Actually, I've never thought about that 452 00:23:57,880 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 1: until you said it. 453 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 2: Because we're in this even in the US, like a 454 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:09,880 Speaker 2: hyper media focused world too, right, where the vision around 455 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,440 Speaker 2: who has money who doesn't is in front of our 456 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 2: face all day every day, and it's you know, worse 457 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 2: and worse with social media because that is just over glamorized. 458 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,919 Speaker 2: And then anything that we read, TV, we watch, it 459 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 2: all plays into the scarcity factor around money, and so 460 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 2: it's really easy to feel like if you think the 461 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 2: amount of money in your bank account, savings account, retirement 462 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,639 Speaker 2: whatever is not where you think it should be, or 463 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,679 Speaker 2: is not equivalent to let's say a coworker or a 464 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:49,359 Speaker 2: friend or a partner or your spouse. It's really easy 465 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 2: to internalize that as you did something wrong, you're clearly 466 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 2: not as good of a human as that other person. 467 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:00,480 Speaker 2: And so then it starts to become your eye identity, 468 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,480 Speaker 2: it starts to become how you move in the world, right, 469 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:05,639 Speaker 2: and you start to operate from a different place. And 470 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:10,200 Speaker 2: so it's hard work. Like I'm not gonna lie, I'm 471 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,679 Speaker 2: an expert at it, and it's going to be my 472 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:16,199 Speaker 2: life long struggle for sure. I grew up in a 473 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 2: family where status was really important, so it's taken me 474 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,760 Speaker 2: a long time to break off. It doesn't matter what 475 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:26,239 Speaker 2: car I drive, it doesn't matter what house I live in, 476 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 2: it doesn't matter what brand of pants I'm wearing, Like, 477 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:33,880 Speaker 2: none of that matters who I am as a human, right, 478 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 2: And it takes a lot of work in like really 479 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,679 Speaker 2: cementing who you are and like who you are at 480 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 2: the core if all of it was taken away and 481 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:46,440 Speaker 2: thinking about it from that perspective. Yeah, I mean it's 482 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:48,920 Speaker 2: it's you know, certainly not like a weekend project, but. 483 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 1: It's one day at a time kind of thing. 484 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, But I guess I have a little bit of 485 00:25:54,320 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 2: a naive slash big vision, Okay that like, especially if 486 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 2: we as women could do some of this work, I 487 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:07,480 Speaker 2: think that we would show up even more powerful, We 488 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 2: would show up even bigger in our careers and our 489 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:15,399 Speaker 2: families because we're not tied up in this kind of 490 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 2: old belief system around. 491 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 1: Well, you mentioned at the beginning of the podcast per menopause, 492 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 1: and that just made me think of midlife. So this 493 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 1: is maybe a two part question. I want to talk 494 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:39,120 Speaker 1: about specifically the menopause piece and what that would change 495 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 1: with our relationship with money, but also I think a 496 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 1: lot of people equate midlife to starting over in some capacity, 497 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 1: Like a lot of people go through changes. I'm personally 498 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,719 Speaker 1: in I'm forty three, so you know, going through that 499 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 1: phase of life where I think you start to ask yourself, 500 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:56,439 Speaker 1: is this what I want to be doing for the 501 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 1: rest of my life? Am I doing? Am I on 502 00:26:58,040 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 1: the right path? Is this my purpose? All of this? 503 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 1: But starting over sounds really scary too, So can you 504 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about how we make those decisions? 505 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 1: Not completely disregarding money obviously, like factoring that in, but 506 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:15,720 Speaker 1: also not letting it rule the decisions that we make 507 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 1: for ourselves. 508 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:20,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm in my forties too, so I can 509 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:24,400 Speaker 2: really relate to this that I think forties are one 510 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:28,920 Speaker 2: of the biggest not only sort of life transition decades 511 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 2: in our lives, but also for most women, I see 512 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:35,200 Speaker 2: it being one of the most expensive decades in our lives. 513 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,160 Speaker 2: Like if we look at you know, periomenopause and metopause 514 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,960 Speaker 2: and all of that, we just have a lot of things, right, supplements, 515 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:45,880 Speaker 2: oh yeah, pills, acupuncture, like all the stuff that we're 516 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 2: trying just to feel human by filows buying. I mean, 517 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 2: it's just you know, and it's like I don't care 518 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 2: what it costs, Like I need sleep or I need 519 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:55,960 Speaker 2: function as a human, and I need a brain, and 520 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,719 Speaker 2: I need you know, all of those sorts of things. 521 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:02,200 Speaker 2: So it becomes really excfensive. But also I would say 522 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,879 Speaker 2: that most women, probably ninety nine percent that I've worked 523 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 2: with in the forty to fifty range and some a 524 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,680 Speaker 2: little beyond, have a great impulse of wanting to blow 525 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:16,040 Speaker 2: up their life. Oh okay, just not wanting no, no, 526 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 2: you're not alone of just wanting to implode everything. And 527 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:24,159 Speaker 2: I think that is part of it. Is biochemical It 528 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 2: is our bodies either going through or gearing up to 529 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 2: go through, one of the biggest transitions in our lives. 530 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:38,240 Speaker 2: Right when we go through perimenopause into menopause, Absolutely everything 531 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 2: biochemically about us changes, and so you know, we're just 532 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 2: starting to have really a language around that. But it 533 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 2: would make sense then if all of that is changing, 534 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 2: that our money, our identity, how we view money, how 535 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 2: we spend money, how we save money, that all of 536 00:28:56,400 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 2: that shifts as well. So you're not alone. I probably 537 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:04,959 Speaker 2: on a weekly basis say like I just want to 538 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 2: like get in my car and I just want to 539 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:11,760 Speaker 2: drive away, Like the fantasy is super real. So I 540 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 2: think what you have to in the moments where you're 541 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 2: not in that space, it's really important to root into. 542 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 2: I ask a lot of women like I need you 543 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 2: to write down or think about, whatever way you work best, 544 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 2: what does enough look like for you? What is that? 545 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 2: I want you to come up with a number. I 546 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 2: want you to come up with a feeling. I want 547 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 2: you to come up with where you're living, what you're doing. 548 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:39,280 Speaker 2: I want you to have such a crystal clear picture 549 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 2: of what enough is so that if you're not there, 550 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 2: we can create it right. But when you do get there, 551 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 2: you're gonna know, Okay, I'm in this space. So a 552 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 2: lot of us feel like we just don't have enough, right. 553 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 2: We don't have money, you know, we don't enough time, 554 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 2: we don't have enough this, and so we live in 555 00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 2: this place of lack. And I think that creates even 556 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 2: more the impulse of like if it, I'm just gonna 557 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 2: bring the thing up right, And so having that written 558 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 2: out is usually pretty powerful of this is this is 559 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 2: my ideal, this is what like if I could capture it, 560 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 2: this is what it would be. And so then thinking Okay, 561 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 2: which pieces of this are not aligned? Is it my career, 562 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 2: isn't my relationship? 563 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:24,720 Speaker 1: You know? 564 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 2: Do I need to move? Do I need to think 565 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 2: about moving? Do I want to retire? Do I want 566 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 2: to you know, change my career up? Like all of 567 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 2: these things. Then we kind of bring the money piece 568 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 2: in and go, Okay, where's the money at and how 569 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 2: do we get it to support this this vision? But 570 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 2: we've got to have like the roadmap of what it 571 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:47,240 Speaker 2: looks like first, because I want every woman in particular 572 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 2: to get to a place where they feel like they're 573 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 2: living in that version of enough. So it's honoring, you know, 574 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,360 Speaker 2: during this big transition. It's honoring that your body's going 575 00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 2: through this. You're gonna have moments where you really want 576 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,720 Speaker 2: to spend money. Brilliant Tell women to create I don't 577 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:04,280 Speaker 2: care what you want to call it. Some people call 578 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 2: it my man e spending. Some people call it my 579 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 2: menopause moment. Some people call it my brain fog account. 580 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 2: Create a savings account or another checking account. Okay, put 581 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 2: a certain amount of money in that every month, and 582 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,720 Speaker 2: when you're in those moments of like I just need 583 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 2: to spend money or yeah I just need great, you 584 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:25,560 Speaker 2: already have money set apart, just go and grab it 585 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 2: from that account. No shame, no guilt, right, it's like 586 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 2: build in, yeah, these things that make you feel bad 587 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:38,240 Speaker 2: about money, Like build these into your your system around 588 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:40,840 Speaker 2: money so we can get rid of a lot of 589 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 2: that shame. But really knowing, like what is it that 590 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 2: I really want? Like what it's going to give me 591 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,080 Speaker 2: that feeling? And maybe you might not exactly know, and 592 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 2: that's okay, Like that's part of the experience. But the 593 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:58,400 Speaker 2: more you can see it, feel it, sensory experience around it, 594 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 2: the easier it's going to be. Like ohayka, which parts 595 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 2: are missing. Let's bring the money in to just make 596 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 2: that work. 597 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 1: Well, I think what you're saying is huge, because what 598 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 1: I'm hearing is just to be conscious of it and 599 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 1: to plan for it instead of unconsciously moving through those 600 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 1: emotions and those feelings and then feeling shame later. And 601 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:18,960 Speaker 1: that's what happens to me. It's kind of what I 602 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 1: was saying at the beginning of the podcast. I'll need 603 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,480 Speaker 1: my creatures of comfort type things during certain times of 604 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 1: the month, and that is changing as I go through 605 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 1: different phases and get older and things like that. But 606 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 1: because I'm not exactly planning for those times, then later 607 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, why did you do that? Or you 608 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 1: know what I mean, Like, there's a way to turn 609 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 1: on yourself with it, Whereas what you're saying is no 610 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:45,280 Speaker 1: prepare for those moments, so then when you're doing it, 611 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 1: it's not going to send you into shame because you 612 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 1: prepared for it. 613 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 2: Or if you notice every month around my period, I 614 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:56,080 Speaker 2: want to spend a lot of money. Yeah, brilliant, Like, 615 00:32:56,200 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 2: let's create an account or system or something where it 616 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,959 Speaker 2: is all set up to hold that for you, so 617 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:06,120 Speaker 2: you don't even have to worry about that every month 618 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 2: that time of month comes, you already know you can 619 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 2: go out and you can get your takeout, and you 620 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:13,040 Speaker 2: can go get your latte, and you can go get 621 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 2: your massage because that is already factored into the equation. 622 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 2: And so when we do that, it's like, oh, I 623 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 2: don't have to feel guilty about this, Like I literally 624 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 2: created my system to support me in these moments, and 625 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 2: that just totally changes I think how you show up 626 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 2: in the world too, because you don't have to go 627 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 2: through that, you know, shame and blame, but allowing yourself 628 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,080 Speaker 2: to like I might have to blow up my life 629 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:41,200 Speaker 2: and that might also be okay. Like I think also 630 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 2: holding that truth because I don't want people to feel 631 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 2: so calculated, you know, I want you to leave room 632 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:54,760 Speaker 2: for this is a messy, wild, weird time and yeah, 633 00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:57,720 Speaker 2: you might make some decisions like that, and you can 634 00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:00,959 Speaker 2: also move through those without shame or guilt. Right, So 635 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,760 Speaker 2: you can hold those two and you're gonna be fine, 636 00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 2: I promise. Yeah. 637 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 1: Well, I feel like your story and we didn't fully 638 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:09,279 Speaker 1: touch on this at the beginning, but there were so 639 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 1: many moments in your life leading up to this moment 640 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:13,880 Speaker 1: where you have started over. I mean, I know you 641 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:17,239 Speaker 1: mentioned to me selling your podcast, and then you did 642 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,120 Speaker 1: mention when you were much younger selling that festival, So 643 00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:22,840 Speaker 1: then there's the moment after that and then those cases. 644 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 1: Obviously you're making a decision that was probably in your 645 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:28,640 Speaker 1: best interest. But as I touched on with the pandemic 646 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:30,799 Speaker 1: and stuff, a lot of us did feel this like 647 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:35,279 Speaker 1: starting over energy and we can so easily attach shame 648 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,480 Speaker 1: to that. I think, especially as you get older, do 649 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:41,759 Speaker 1: you have anything with those kind of mentalities that you 650 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:46,000 Speaker 1: would recommend to listeners about If you find yourself in 651 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:49,080 Speaker 1: a place of starting over, how do you not attach 652 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 1: to Oh my gosh, I messed everything up. I didn't 653 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,160 Speaker 1: do this right like everyone else has it figured out 654 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:55,919 Speaker 1: like things like that. 655 00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,080 Speaker 2: Well, I went through a divorce in my early thirties 656 00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:02,080 Speaker 2: where I lost literally everything I had in my car 657 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,640 Speaker 2: and a suitcase to my name. Wow. So I know 658 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,400 Speaker 2: starting over from all different sides of the coin. I 659 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:11,719 Speaker 2: think one of the most powerful things you can do. 660 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:16,400 Speaker 2: I have an exercise called financial forgiveness. It seems very simplistic, 661 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:19,719 Speaker 2: but it's really powerful. It's setting your phone timer for 662 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:23,520 Speaker 2: fifteen minutes without judging yourself. I want you to write 663 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,520 Speaker 2: down everything that you wish you would have done, that 664 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:28,960 Speaker 2: you think you should have done, that you feel guilty about, 665 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:30,759 Speaker 2: that you feel shame about. I just want you to 666 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:33,440 Speaker 2: dump it on a piece of paper. No one is 667 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:36,720 Speaker 2: going to see this, but you so be really honest 668 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 2: with yourself. Then I want you to step away when 669 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:42,120 Speaker 2: that fifteen minutes is up, come back twenty four hours later. 670 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:46,040 Speaker 2: Read over the piece of paper. You're gonna see some things, 671 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:50,640 Speaker 2: usually see some patterns emerge in that from a different perspective. 672 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:53,279 Speaker 2: When your nervous system is calm, and then I need 673 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:54,839 Speaker 2: you to get rid of it. Burn it, shred it, 674 00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:58,960 Speaker 2: throw it away. Right seems very simple, but there is 675 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:06,080 Speaker 2: a very strong brain nervous system money connection around getting 676 00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:10,160 Speaker 2: these things out of your body, of your brain onto 677 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 2: paper and then getting rid of them. It doesn't erase them, 678 00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:15,680 Speaker 2: of course, but what it tells your brain and your 679 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:18,239 Speaker 2: nervous system is, hey, those things don't have to keep 680 00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:22,640 Speaker 2: us stuck anymore. We can start over. I've been doing 681 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:25,960 Speaker 2: this for over twenty years. Almost everyone I've worked with 682 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:30,120 Speaker 2: has had a starting over moment. Most people don't talk 683 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:33,040 Speaker 2: about it, and so I just want you to know 684 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:36,400 Speaker 2: that you can do it right. It goes back to 685 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:39,200 Speaker 2: the same place, the same tools. What do we want? 686 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,319 Speaker 2: What is this vision of enoughness? Okay, where's the money at? 687 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:44,000 Speaker 2: How do we get it to come along with this? 688 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:47,399 Speaker 2: At the same time, we're doing this financial forgiveness thing, right, 689 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:49,040 Speaker 2: we're getting rid of it, getting rid of it, getting 690 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:51,680 Speaker 2: rid of it. So it's the same process that you 691 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:53,480 Speaker 2: just kind of keep moving through. 692 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:57,160 Speaker 1: Well, the book is called Unraveling Your Relationship with Money, 693 00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 1: and I love anything related to die into the feelings 694 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:03,279 Speaker 1: behind why we do what we do. So I'm very 695 00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:06,319 Speaker 1: excited about this. If you had to say, what is 696 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,319 Speaker 1: the one thing that you would want readers to walk 697 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:13,319 Speaker 1: away learning about money from your book? What would it be? 698 00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:17,799 Speaker 2: We've said it many times, but money is emotional. It's 699 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:21,359 Speaker 2: not numbers. So stop playing in the number so much 700 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:23,360 Speaker 2: and get in the emotions and that's where you're going 701 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:24,320 Speaker 2: to see things change. 702 00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:28,360 Speaker 1: Oof. My listeners are like, oh God, this is so Kelly. 703 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:32,560 Speaker 1: This a whole conversation. I one percent know everyone listening 704 00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:34,680 Speaker 1: is like, this is the best guest for her because 705 00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:37,759 Speaker 1: it's all about emotions, right, It's why we do everything 706 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,760 Speaker 1: we do. So I'm so grateful for this conversation Seana, 707 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:42,839 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being here with us, Thanks 708 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:43,680 Speaker 1: for having me