WEBVTT - Ep. 284: The Archer's Paradox 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:13.320 This is me Eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:18.320 bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You 0:00:18.400 --> 0:00:24.080 can't predict anything presented by first, like creating proven versatile 0:00:24.160 --> 0:00:28.040 hunting apparel from Marino Bass layers to technical outerwear for 0:00:28.160 --> 0:00:36.280 every hunt. First like go farther, stay longer. Okay, we're 0:00:36.320 --> 0:00:39.960 recording remotely right now from Kerrville, Texas in a hotel 0:00:40.159 --> 0:00:45.599 thing like a very bland stale hotel meeting room with 0:00:45.720 --> 0:00:49.519 the not very bland at all, highly esteemed Dr ed 0:00:49.680 --> 0:00:54.120 Ashby from the Ashby Bow Hunting Foundation, who is um 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:59.240 developed lifelong expertise and arrow and broadhead technology. But before 0:00:59.280 --> 0:01:01.640 we get to him, we got to talk with with 0:01:01.680 --> 0:01:03.400 our buddy, Jason Phelps has been on the show a 0:01:03.400 --> 0:01:06.320 bunch of times, including some of our most popular episodes 0:01:06.360 --> 0:01:09.920 ever when he comes down and explains, uh, what elk 0:01:09.959 --> 0:01:12.560 are saying when they make noises? How to mimic those noises? 0:01:12.560 --> 0:01:15.440 And of course you know from Phelps game calls, and 0:01:15.520 --> 0:01:18.959 you know what, Yannie, what was the uh? Um? Tell 0:01:19.000 --> 0:01:20.840 people go how to find that hunt you did with 0:01:20.840 --> 0:01:23.720 you and Phelps the YouTube hunt. You can go to 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:27.320 meat EAT's YouTube page and uh find the latest season 0:01:27.520 --> 0:01:31.080 of meat Eator Hunts and uh, it's the first two episodes, 0:01:31.200 --> 0:01:34.400 Part one and part two when I was stunting pelts. 0:01:34.440 --> 0:01:36.840 He's all nervous. He keeps watching to make sure you're 0:01:37.400 --> 0:01:42.560 ELK episode out in view metrics. He doesn't want it 0:01:42.600 --> 0:01:44.800 to get it's I guess it's like neck and neck 0:01:44.959 --> 0:01:47.760 between your metator Hunt's meal your episode and you meet 0:01:47.760 --> 0:01:51.200 your Hunts elk episode. He wants that one to be 0:01:51.320 --> 0:01:54.080 number one. Yeah, he's got real strong opinions about why 0:01:54.080 --> 0:01:57.080 I should be number one. And he thinks squirrel hunting stupid. 0:01:59.520 --> 0:02:01.880 So if you make a scroll hunting one and it 0:02:01.920 --> 0:02:06.800 whoops that one, I've got one plan for this fall, 0:02:06.920 --> 0:02:10.600 So get ready, Jason. Okay, So Jay's felts Uh why 0:02:11.200 --> 0:02:15.639 He's like, what's wrong with plastic vehagle tubes? Why? Why 0:02:15.680 --> 0:02:19.720 did you want to mess around an aluminum vegle tube? Yeah? Up, 0:02:19.800 --> 0:02:23.240 un to this point, we had all relied on plastic 0:02:23.560 --> 0:02:26.160 um to try to get a high pitched um you know, 0:02:26.200 --> 0:02:29.040 those better familiar with oak vocalizations, like a bowl vehagle 0:02:29.120 --> 0:02:32.000 gets to a very very high frequency um up around 0:02:32.040 --> 0:02:36.079 like hers. And we've always used plastic and harder plastics 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:38.640 to try to get there. Uh, And so the idea 0:02:38.720 --> 0:02:42.760 came about where, well, if we used an aluminum um material, 0:02:42.800 --> 0:02:44.440 we would able to be able to get to that 0:02:44.520 --> 0:02:48.639 frequency um maybe better than plastic um would get there. 0:02:48.680 --> 0:02:50.840 So nobody had used it. And then the idea of 0:02:50.840 --> 0:02:53.600 trying to solve a problem that we had with plastic 0:02:53.639 --> 0:02:55.760 vehagle tubes. The other thing that it did in a 0:02:55.840 --> 0:02:58.280 roundabout way by being able to get to a higher pitch, 0:02:58.320 --> 0:03:00.360 we were able to put like a near premaus on it, 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:05.000 which fixes another issue of bigger plastic tubes. UM. They're 0:03:05.000 --> 0:03:07.040 extremely noisy as you walk through the woods, if you 0:03:07.120 --> 0:03:09.040 hit a tree, if you hit brush, as they dragged 0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:11.639 through the brush. So by putting the neoprenus sleeve on 0:03:11.800 --> 0:03:13.400 the aluminum, we were able to kind of make a 0:03:13.440 --> 0:03:16.079 hybrid system that solves a couple of issues. We can 0:03:16.120 --> 0:03:19.079 maintain the high note, keep it quiet um. The end 0:03:19.080 --> 0:03:22.359 result is a very very loud vehicle tube, louder than 0:03:22.400 --> 0:03:24.720 I can be on my plastic tube. So it is 0:03:24.760 --> 0:03:27.600 an effective tool in the woods where you know, I 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:30.000 got a better chance at getting a response from a 0:03:30.080 --> 0:03:33.079 bowl at a further distance. And then we had one 0:03:33.080 --> 0:03:35.560 shot we've been also working on attachments called the easy 0:03:35.600 --> 0:03:38.040 vehgler mouth piece and the flared mouth piece, and we 0:03:38.080 --> 0:03:40.880 didn't have the right system to attach those two and 0:03:40.960 --> 0:03:44.840 so during this aluminum design process, UH, we were able 0:03:44.880 --> 0:03:47.720 to design it to accept these attachments, UM, which will 0:03:47.760 --> 0:03:50.880 really assist people that can't put a diaphragm in their 0:03:50.920 --> 0:03:52.920 mouth to be able to steal bogle and be effective 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:54.840 out in the woods. And so another thing about the 0:03:55.760 --> 0:03:58.520 metal vehicle tubes, it comes with like a mouth piece 0:03:58.680 --> 0:04:01.080 that which you call the easy bagleer mouth piece, which 0:04:01.080 --> 0:04:02.880 you make clear is for people that don't want to have, like, 0:04:02.960 --> 0:04:05.119 don't like to have a diaphragm calling her mouth. Can't 0:04:05.120 --> 0:04:08.040 make a diaphragm calling her mouth? Yeah, so right now, 0:04:08.200 --> 0:04:09.720 and you know the best way to bagle is to 0:04:09.760 --> 0:04:12.640 put an internal diaphragm which consists of a piece of latex, 0:04:12.720 --> 0:04:15.640 a frame and some tape to seal the call off 0:04:15.680 --> 0:04:18.640 in your mouth. And we create our vehicles to that. UM. 0:04:18.720 --> 0:04:21.160 One thing we've noticed over a lot of time, UM 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:24.240 talking with a lot of customers, you know, gag reflexes. 0:04:24.279 --> 0:04:27.400 People that just can't figure out, UM how to run 0:04:27.400 --> 0:04:29.600 the call. Their mouths don't work right, you know, on 0:04:29.640 --> 0:04:33.760 and on there are reasons why people can't run a diaphragm, 0:04:33.839 --> 0:04:37.400 and so what we design is we've taken our very 0:04:37.480 --> 0:04:40.600 very popular ant diaphragm, taking the tape off and then 0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:44.680 created a seal inside of an external attachment and all 0:04:44.720 --> 0:04:46.920 you have to do is put your bottom lip over 0:04:47.040 --> 0:04:50.520 the small air opening and blow. Uh. There is a 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:55.359 little bit of of skill involved, but it's it's you know, 0:04:55.440 --> 0:04:58.200 at ten percent of being able to run an internal diaphragm. 0:04:58.240 --> 0:05:00.080 You literally just have to put your lip over the 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:03.359 bottom of whole, apply you know, different pressures, and blow 0:05:03.400 --> 0:05:06.040 through it to achieve in a bold bagle. So it's 0:05:06.160 --> 0:05:08.480 very easy and it solves a lot of issues that 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:12.279 people have it running a diaphragm. So I want you 0:05:12.320 --> 0:05:16.640 to compare what these different things sound like. So take 0:05:16.720 --> 0:05:18.680 one of your regular diaphragms and hold it up to 0:05:18.720 --> 0:05:23.159 the aluminum bagle tube and rip right, and then go 0:05:23.200 --> 0:05:25.960 ahead and crank one out with the mouthpiece and maybe 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:28.640 do whatever back and forth, you know, so people can 0:05:28.680 --> 0:05:31.000 hear the difference between what they're what you're getting with 0:05:31.040 --> 0:05:35.040 a diaphragm and what you're getting with the easy beagle 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:36.640 or mouthpiece. Which you really just like kind of put 0:05:36.680 --> 0:05:39.760 your mouth over and and blow. Yeah. So we've taken 0:05:39.880 --> 0:05:41.839 the this tube had the easy bogle are on it, 0:05:41.920 --> 0:05:44.159 so we've switched over to the flared detachment, which is 0:05:44.240 --> 0:05:59.360 meant for diaphragm colors, and we'll give it a little go. So, yeah, 0:05:59.360 --> 0:06:01.760 that's a diat it. It's got great back pressure, it's 0:06:01.760 --> 0:06:05.440 easy to run, and it's got great sound. So we 0:06:05.560 --> 0:06:08.400 just went ahead and took the flared mouthpiece off, snap 0:06:08.440 --> 0:06:11.000 the easy Bugler on, and we'll give it a give 0:06:11.040 --> 0:06:21.360 it a go. So one thing I can tell by 0:06:21.360 --> 0:06:23.520 blowing it in my office here versus the first one, 0:06:23.760 --> 0:06:25.280 and you may not be able to tell since we're 0:06:25.279 --> 0:06:29.159 going over the phone Steve, is that this is extremely loud. 0:06:29.400 --> 0:06:33.400 Um not easy Bugler was. I don't know if it's louder, 0:06:33.839 --> 0:06:37.240 but it's definitely louder, and it's it's it's evident by 0:06:37.240 --> 0:06:39.000 what my ears are feeling right now that that easy 0:06:39.040 --> 0:06:42.320 Bugler is louder. And I'm allowed diaphragm color, but I 0:06:42.400 --> 0:06:45.160 cannot get the same volume out of a diaphragm as 0:06:45.160 --> 0:06:47.359 I can that easy Bugler mouth piece. So, like I 0:06:47.480 --> 0:06:49.599 mentioned earlier, I don't want to be a broken record, 0:06:49.720 --> 0:06:52.480 but it's got some good utility out in the woods. 0:06:52.720 --> 0:06:55.480 Or an Elk hunner trying to get something to respond. Yeah, 0:06:55.520 --> 0:06:58.320 there's a like there's a market difference in the volume 0:06:58.640 --> 0:07:02.400 and how well it carries. So you're either gonna Elk 0:07:02.440 --> 0:07:04.480 are gonna hear better, other dudes are gonna know you're 0:07:04.480 --> 0:07:09.160 there and move away. Either way, it's win win, all right, man, Um, 0:07:09.320 --> 0:07:11.840 we will talk to Jason Susan take our Yeah, thanks 0:07:11.880 --> 0:07:13.360 for having me. You guys have fun in Texas and 0:07:13.360 --> 0:07:18.360 we'll see you guys soon. Doctor ed Ashby big time 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:22.960 researcher and arrows and broadheads Wow Ashby Bowl Hunt Foundation. Right, 0:07:23.160 --> 0:07:24.840 but now you don't have a doctor in that. You 0:07:24.880 --> 0:07:27.600 got a doctor at eyeballs. Yep, that's it, that's all right. 0:07:27.880 --> 0:07:32.119 The military doctor. I was in the military yep. Spent 0:07:32.400 --> 0:07:35.640 uh almost ten years in the Air Force and changed 0:07:35.680 --> 0:07:38.840 over the Public Health Service. Worked out on the Indian 0:07:38.880 --> 0:07:41.880 reservations for a number of years. That was in the 0:07:41.920 --> 0:07:45.880 area office covered seven states up in Minnesota, that area 0:07:45.920 --> 0:07:48.400 up in there, and then it ran the eye care 0:07:48.480 --> 0:07:51.040 program nationwide for the Federal Bureau or Prisons. In my 0:07:51.160 --> 0:07:54.520 last four years, so I did twenty six years with 0:07:54.600 --> 0:07:59.080 the government, long enough, and then you went off to Africa. 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:02.400 I retire, liquidated everything I had in the States, moved 0:08:02.400 --> 0:08:05.200 to Africa, got it and got into the Then he 0:08:05.240 --> 0:08:07.119 got into the broad heads and arrows. But I actually 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:10.520 I was doing stuff like that long before uh. I 0:08:10.600 --> 0:08:15.680 got involved with the Tall study back in eighty four. 0:08:16.800 --> 0:08:21.440 And uh by pure accident, pure good luck. Good luck 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:24.440 has seemed to follow me the whole time I was. 0:08:25.520 --> 0:08:29.560 I had written over trying to see if I could 0:08:29.720 --> 0:08:34.440 uh hunter rhino with bowing era and no, it wasn't legal, 0:08:34.520 --> 0:08:37.800 couldn't couldn't do it. And then what gave you the 0:08:37.840 --> 0:08:40.280 idea that you should have should have to even ask 0:08:40.480 --> 0:08:43.120 somebody to if you could shoot a rhino with a 0:08:43.160 --> 0:08:45.240 born arrow? Or who did you write to? Well? I 0:08:45.640 --> 0:08:49.240 wrote to the game department there in South Africa asking 0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:52.520 about him. And then when they decided they wanted to 0:08:52.559 --> 0:08:57.280 look at archery and see about legalizing it. Uh, they're 0:08:57.280 --> 0:09:00.480 in the Tall Province. They were having an eating sitting 0:09:00.480 --> 0:09:03.040 around talking about, you know, how they were gonna set 0:09:03.080 --> 0:09:04.720 this up, how they were going to do it, what 0:09:04.880 --> 0:09:07.040 animals are going to shoot? And they got talking about 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:08.880 the big animals. What you know, how big an animal 0:09:08.920 --> 0:09:11.920 could you take? And stuff? And somebody there and I 0:09:12.000 --> 0:09:13.800 still don't know which. One of them said, you know, 0:09:13.880 --> 0:09:18.160 somebody wrote me to three years ago, uh, asking about 0:09:18.240 --> 0:09:20.960 hunting a rhino. So I think I've still got the letter. 0:09:21.000 --> 0:09:23.880 Went and looked in their files. They did contacted me, 0:09:23.920 --> 0:09:25.599 said you still want to come try to shoot the 0:09:25.679 --> 0:09:29.079 rhino with boring air. Told me about ten seconds to 0:09:29.120 --> 0:09:32.840 say yes, and uh, so you know we set that up. 0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:35.640 I went over, I did the rhino hunt while I 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:38.280 was there and talking to him and stuff. It's got 0:09:38.320 --> 0:09:42.240 a few other animals on that trip. Uh. They said, Look, 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:44.080 I said, this is what we're doing, and we're looking 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:47.200 at if we want to legalize this. So would you 0:09:47.280 --> 0:09:50.280 like to come back next year? So let's repeat the 0:09:50.400 --> 0:09:56.440 rhino and then you bring as many different broadheads as 0:09:56.480 --> 0:10:00.000 you can lay your hands on, and we'll go into 0:10:00.520 --> 0:10:04.120 Maccouzi Park and before the Rifle Cup, we have to 0:10:04.120 --> 0:10:07.880 cull animals every year and we will shoot as many 0:10:07.960 --> 0:10:12.080 animals as we can shoot. And we want to, you know, 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:14.160 take a look at the effectiveness and what we turned 0:10:14.160 --> 0:10:17.559 out and doing is they literally wanted to take any 0:10:17.600 --> 0:10:20.480 shot that we thought we could make because they wanted 0:10:20.480 --> 0:10:22.920 to look at what happened when you made bad shots 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:27.840 with different arraw set ups and so forth. And so 0:10:27.920 --> 0:10:29.679 we went in there and I think you shot a 0:10:29.760 --> 0:10:36.199 hundred fifty four animals in thirty days in Maccuzi. Uh. 0:10:36.400 --> 0:10:38.080 But we were backed up with a rifle for that, 0:10:38.480 --> 0:10:41.000 so that if you shot an animal and you weren't 0:10:41.000 --> 0:10:43.280 sure it was gonna be a lethal head, they would 0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:46.760 put it down with a rifle immediately somewhere remote from 0:10:46.760 --> 0:10:49.680 where the era was, so that we could dissect the 0:10:49.720 --> 0:10:51.960 animal and look and see what the air had done, 0:10:52.520 --> 0:10:56.360 make a determination would it have been lethal? Would it not? Um? 0:10:56.440 --> 0:11:00.000 You know what happened? Why was it not lethal? Um? 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:01.920 And if we couldn't determine, they had a couple of 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:05.360 veteranarians on staff that we could take the animal back 0:11:05.400 --> 0:11:08.760 into their shed. There the veteranarians were dissect them and 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:12.120 tell us exactly what they found if, you know, and 0:11:12.160 --> 0:11:14.080 make a determination would it have been a lethal hit, 0:11:14.160 --> 0:11:18.760 would have not? It was rather interesting experiment. Uh. It's 0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:20.960 rare to get an opportunity to do that. All the 0:11:21.120 --> 0:11:24.559 later research we had to do on freshly cold animals, 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:28.200 but all of that initial was done live animals, and 0:11:28.280 --> 0:11:31.319 most of it was on Oh, we did a few 0:11:31.440 --> 0:11:35.520 zebra and kudo and in y'alla, in Paula ward hogs. 0:11:36.240 --> 0:11:38.840 Most of the initial study was done on smaller animals 0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:42.480 other than the rhinos. And uh, what haven't you shot 0:11:42.480 --> 0:11:47.600 at the rhino? They died? How quick? Uh? They were 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:53.360 a pretty good distance. The first one probably covered I 0:11:53.400 --> 0:11:57.600 would say it probably at least a half mile. But 0:11:57.679 --> 0:11:59.920 we have much better air setups now than we had then. 0:12:00.600 --> 0:12:04.760 Then I'm working with no knowledge of of what's gonna 0:12:04.800 --> 0:12:07.520 make the most effective ERA set up. All I could 0:12:07.559 --> 0:12:10.439 go on was a little bit of historical data. There 0:12:10.520 --> 0:12:14.120 wasn't and nobody had shot a white rhino. He's twice 0:12:14.120 --> 0:12:17.000 as big as a black rhino. He's six thousand pounds 0:12:17.040 --> 0:12:19.880 instead of three thousand. Uh. There had been a couple 0:12:19.920 --> 0:12:25.800 of people shoot black rhinos. Um. Bill Nagley had shot one, 0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:30.200 and Bob swine Hardy shot one. Uh. And of course 0:12:30.200 --> 0:12:32.199 Howard Hill didn't do a rhino, but he'd done the 0:12:32.240 --> 0:12:34.360 elephant and stuff like that. So I had to draw 0:12:34.440 --> 0:12:37.520 on what I could find in their writings to try 0:12:37.520 --> 0:12:43.480 to devise an error. And uh, um, I actually designed 0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:46.040 a different era for the second time around. It was 0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:49.360 one era hill and it went a little bit further. 0:12:50.000 --> 0:12:52.640 It was a rather exciting story on him because I 0:12:52.679 --> 0:12:55.600 shot him from from six ft away seven feet give 0:12:55.640 --> 0:12:59.320 me away from my footprints to his with no rifle 0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:04.000 back up. And so it was and that's the only 0:13:04.040 --> 0:13:06.560 animal that's ever shaking me up. After it was over, 0:13:07.040 --> 0:13:09.719 what was going on, as calms could be. After I 0:13:09.720 --> 0:13:12.480 shot him, I shook like a leaf. Didn't know where 0:13:12.480 --> 0:13:17.199 you were standing there. Well, it was an old bull 0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:19.400 that had actually been d hornedy. Is actually bigger than 0:13:19.400 --> 0:13:24.920 the first rhino, which was huge. Uh. It lived in 0:13:24.960 --> 0:13:27.679 this one valley and said we were trying to take 0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:29.680 off one of these old bulls but no longer breed. 0:13:30.520 --> 0:13:32.560 And every time we would see him he would go 0:13:32.640 --> 0:13:35.520 out and he'd go through this mountain pass. Well, we'd 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:38.480 gone out that morning. We dropped all the trackers off 0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:41.440 on fresh tracks to gold look and see what kind 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:44.640 of rhino it was and which rhino it was. Uh, 0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:46.440 see if it's one, we're going to go after night 0:13:47.040 --> 0:13:50.360 and there was just Chris Freeman and I left. He's 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:53.920 one of the game Game War game rangers there and uh, 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:58.160 we came to that big basin and looked there was 0:13:58.200 --> 0:14:01.800 that bull down there again. And Chris said, okay, now 0:14:01.800 --> 0:14:04.880 he's done this to us several times, said, I'll give 0:14:04.920 --> 0:14:09.200 you forty five minutes. Associated you go around to that 0:14:09.200 --> 0:14:12.200 that cut he's going out in, you'll probably got the 0:14:12.240 --> 0:14:14.920 same way. Then I'll try to stalk him real slow 0:14:14.960 --> 0:14:18.480 and easy, just like we have and and he'll probably 0:14:18.520 --> 0:14:20.960 push right out through there. And I did. So I 0:14:21.000 --> 0:14:23.520 went up to that draw and it kept getting there, 0:14:23.680 --> 0:14:27.160 and there in this real steep bank, like sixty degree 0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:30.800 on both sides, and as you got it right up 0:14:30.840 --> 0:14:32.600 to the end of it, it opened up into a 0:14:32.600 --> 0:14:35.000 big white area. But they're at the end of it. 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:38.320 There's two trails. There's one that's about three ft up 0:14:38.320 --> 0:14:41.560 on the side and one down in the bottom. And 0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:43.520 I look and all the tracks are on the bottom. 0:14:44.360 --> 0:14:46.000 So I said, well, there's nowhere where else to go. 0:14:46.800 --> 0:14:50.880 I gotta stand on this upper track. And so I 0:14:50.920 --> 0:14:52.920 get up standing there and I'm waiting and waiting pretty 0:14:52.920 --> 0:14:56.080 soon and hear rocks rolling, rocks kicking. I'm sitting there 0:14:56.080 --> 0:14:59.160 and I'm all ready and I cut my eyes around 0:15:00.160 --> 0:15:02.720 and he's about twenty yards from me. On the upper 0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:06.840 trail and he comes on and he gets about fifteen 0:15:06.920 --> 0:15:09.120 yards or so from me, and he drops down to 0:15:09.160 --> 0:15:12.080 the lower trail to come out, and he walks by 0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:17.480 me as closest across this table. And because they're big, 0:15:17.720 --> 0:15:19.640 you know, he's more than six and a half feet 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:23.880 at the shoulder. So we're right there together, and I 0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:27.000 got nowhere to go. You know, there's I can't climb 0:15:27.040 --> 0:15:29.800 this bank, can't run out that way, can't run that way. 0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:31.760 And as a rhino, sorry, I don't even know, as 0:15:31.760 --> 0:15:35.880 a rhino known to like cause problems with humans, like 0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:39.560 oh yeah, oh yeah, they killed several people there, yes, 0:15:40.520 --> 0:15:42.680 there where we were hunting. They had they had killed 0:15:42.680 --> 0:15:45.200 several including one of the game rangers had been killed 0:15:45.200 --> 0:15:48.640 by one stomping on him, goring him, stomping on him. 0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:51.040 Most of they just hitch you and toss you around 0:15:51.040 --> 0:15:53.880 a little, which is enough, you know, can can you? 0:15:54.400 --> 0:15:56.240 I want to also want to back way up and 0:15:56.240 --> 0:15:58.960 talk about when you were a kid, But um, before 0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:02.400 I do that, you mentioned and being de horned. At 0:16:02.440 --> 0:16:05.400 some point someone tranquilized them and cut can you can 0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:07.200 you explain what you're explaining to me last night when 0:16:07.240 --> 0:16:12.000 we're having dinner about the deal with the deal with 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:16.560 rhinos that can't breed. Yeah, the whole thing with rhinos 0:16:16.640 --> 0:16:19.960 is that they will live. The bulls will live uh 0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:24.280 way past their breeding age, but they will hold a territory. Now, 0:16:24.360 --> 0:16:26.240 years ago, when there was all of Africa to rom 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:29.280 there's no problem bush, I'll find new territory. But now 0:16:29.320 --> 0:16:33.480 there's people everywhere, a little islands of animals scattered around Africa, 0:16:33.720 --> 0:16:37.000 so they have a limited habitat. So unless you go 0:16:37.120 --> 0:16:41.160 take these old bulls off, the younger bulls can't establish 0:16:41.200 --> 0:16:44.680 a territory. If they have no territory, they will not breede. 0:16:45.200 --> 0:16:48.760 Territory pretty big, so they have to have a lot 0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:52.400 of area. And as long as that dominant bull is 0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:55.760 holding the territory, nobody gets to breathe. If he's past 0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:57.880 his breeding age, does he still think he can breede? 0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:00.080 He's just shooting blanks or no, Yeah he should be. 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:03.680 He's still shooting blanks. Yeah, he's he's now sterile at 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:07.359 him and he will live another ten or twelve years 0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:11.080 holding that territory. So no breeding is going to go 0:17:11.119 --> 0:17:13.920 on in that territory that he controls. So one way 0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:15.720 around that has cut his horn off and he can't 0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:18.200 defend it as well. Uh No, they cut it off. 0:17:18.400 --> 0:17:20.280 They cut the horns off. Keep the poachers from killing 0:17:20.359 --> 0:17:24.080 him doesn't work. The poachers will kill him for nub 0:17:24.080 --> 0:17:26.600 of a horn. You have to keep cutting it off, 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:29.960 just right down to skin level. And even if it's 0:17:30.160 --> 0:17:33.040 cut down the skin level, they followed up, find a 0:17:33.119 --> 0:17:35.200 d hornman, they shoot it so they never ever have 0:17:35.280 --> 0:17:39.080 to track it again. Yeah, So the poachers are a 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:42.720 major problem, and that's one of the nice things with 0:17:43.040 --> 0:17:47.640 the hunting programming there is that the rhinos are so 0:17:47.720 --> 0:17:52.800 expensive to hunt. They have a huge monetary value. So 0:17:53.240 --> 0:17:57.119 that monetary value is both to the people that are 0:17:57.160 --> 0:18:00.679 on the land because a portion of that money if 0:18:00.720 --> 0:18:03.440 you're hunting on one of the camp fire areas something 0:18:03.480 --> 0:18:07.480 like that, it's going to the local population, and of 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:10.520 course the meat's gonna all go to them too, Or 0:18:10.560 --> 0:18:12.600 if it's a private landowner, which a lot of them 0:18:12.600 --> 0:18:15.320 are on private ranches and so forth, it's a huge 0:18:15.520 --> 0:18:19.000 amount of money to him. So they actually hire game 0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:21.640 scouts out of their own pocket to go out and 0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:24.760 try to keep the poachers under control. But if that 0:18:24.880 --> 0:18:28.360 animal didn't have that economic value, they're not gonna lay 0:18:28.400 --> 0:18:30.560 out all that money to hire game scouts to go 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:36.600 out and try to control the poachers. You've you've eaten 0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:40.600 rhino and hippopotamus, and yeah, does all look like dear meat? Like, 0:18:40.640 --> 0:18:43.840 what's it looks like? No? Actually, the the white rhino 0:18:44.240 --> 0:18:47.240 is a grazer. He eats only grass, and uh and 0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:50.600 the hippo same thing. They're they're both grazers and it's 0:18:50.720 --> 0:18:54.520 very much like a range beef, grass fed beef. It's 0:18:54.720 --> 0:18:58.920 very very similar meat and excellent meat, excellent eating. Uh. 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:00.880 You also mentioned I stay with that. We were talking 0:19:00.920 --> 0:19:04.239 about bullfrog hunting. Yeah, and you said you grew up 0:19:04.280 --> 0:19:06.800 poor hunted for me? What was that all about? Like, 0:19:07.240 --> 0:19:09.639 what were the circumstances and you're growing up? Well, you know, 0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:11.240 my brother and I we we just thought it was 0:19:11.320 --> 0:19:14.920 great fun. But uh, we were basically feeding the family 0:19:15.440 --> 0:19:17.720 and you just didn't realize it. So we hunted all 0:19:17.720 --> 0:19:20.879 the time, and uh dad was he was an r 0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:25.200 rifle instructor and so we you know, I shot competition 0:19:25.240 --> 0:19:27.200 in my first match when I was five years old, 0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:30.600 and he used to when we were small. And I've 0:19:30.640 --> 0:19:33.240 actually still got the twenty two five twenty one t 0:19:33.480 --> 0:19:38.800 Remington's real small little match rifle. Uh. He gives us 0:19:39.440 --> 0:19:42.880 one shell and you go out. If you kill something, 0:19:42.880 --> 0:19:45.359 bring it back in and have another shell. You can 0:19:45.440 --> 0:19:47.800 hunt all day. The first time you miss your through 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:51.280 for today, you can go back tomorrow start all over again. 0:19:51.680 --> 0:19:55.840 What would you guys hunt for anything that moved? Uh? 0:19:56.440 --> 0:19:58.640 Where where was that? Where did you go? East Texas? 0:19:58.760 --> 0:20:02.200 East Texas? Ye? Yep? And you and you started in 0:20:02.280 --> 0:20:05.640 on bow hunt early. Yeah really, I mean like both 0:20:05.720 --> 0:20:08.520 early in terms of your age, but also early in 0:20:08.640 --> 0:20:12.000 terms of oh yeah, bo hunt. My dad always talked like, 0:20:12.080 --> 0:20:14.159 you know, he started bowl hunting in the fifties, you know, 0:20:14.520 --> 0:20:17.800 and there weren't even both seasons and stuff. Yeah, there weren't. 0:20:17.800 --> 0:20:20.320 There weren't any special both seasons early on. And there 0:20:20.320 --> 0:20:21.960 were only two of us in the whole county that 0:20:22.200 --> 0:20:25.080 uh they shot a bow many and the guy enterup 0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:27.280 hunting with he was a World War two that named 0:20:27.320 --> 0:20:31.080 James Hayes. And uh, we could shoot a bull frog 0:20:31.600 --> 0:20:33.480 and get a picture on front page of the paper. 0:20:33.520 --> 0:20:37.399 I mean big picture. It's a big time and because 0:20:37.400 --> 0:20:39.800 people are just unfamiliar with it. Oh yeah, and we 0:20:39.840 --> 0:20:42.080 did a lot of armor calling and stuff, and uh 0:20:42.440 --> 0:20:46.200 James shot a bobcat one night, and lord, it took 0:20:46.280 --> 0:20:48.000 up the whole front of the front page of the 0:20:48.000 --> 0:20:51.199 paper stories about because a lot of people didn't know 0:20:51.240 --> 0:20:55.680 we had bobcasts in these Texas. So it was great fun. 0:20:56.280 --> 0:20:59.399 And then uh, we'd come down and we deer hunt. 0:20:59.480 --> 0:21:02.800 And then when they did get a deer season going, Um, 0:21:02.840 --> 0:21:06.840 Bob Lee had a lease that he established the first 0:21:06.920 --> 0:21:10.480 bow hunting only lease in Texas if Wheelock, and we 0:21:10.600 --> 0:21:13.720 hunted on that lease there with with Bob Lee. When 0:21:13.720 --> 0:21:16.000 we see the first establishment, they were like the first 0:21:16.000 --> 0:21:20.439 guys that thought to go pay for hunting excess. No, no, 0:21:20.560 --> 0:21:22.560 people paid before that. But it was a lot cheaper 0:21:22.600 --> 0:21:24.760 than it is now. I mean when I was because 0:21:24.760 --> 0:21:27.280 you could go back in time and and and rubbed 0:21:27.320 --> 0:21:29.680 that guy out. Yeah, when I was about maybe it 0:21:29.720 --> 0:21:32.200 would never become a thing. Yeah, seven or eight years old. 0:21:32.240 --> 0:21:34.760 We would come down to this area Rock Springs, Lanto, 0:21:34.840 --> 0:21:38.560 Marble Falls all through there. Our lease year round lease 0:21:38.840 --> 0:21:43.200 was ten dollars. So we'd come down, we'd fished, we 0:21:43.400 --> 0:21:46.439 squirrel hunt, we turkey hunt, so that that was a 0:21:46.440 --> 0:21:49.800 whole year round lease was ten dollars. Uh, So it's 0:21:49.880 --> 0:21:53.600 changed a good bit. Now. Even back then, were you 0:21:53.680 --> 0:21:56.280 interested in uh? I mean, I'm sure you were interested, 0:21:56.320 --> 0:21:58.840 But when when did you first start getting interesting like 0:21:58.920 --> 0:22:03.760 tinkering with well, I'm taking with Archer equipment. Oh what 0:22:03.920 --> 0:22:07.360 really got me interested in it was when Howard Hall 0:22:07.480 --> 0:22:11.200 made the movie Timber. He toured the United States doing 0:22:11.480 --> 0:22:16.480 going to schools, doing shooting exhibitions to let people know 0:22:16.760 --> 0:22:19.440 there's the movie in town. And I got to see 0:22:19.440 --> 0:22:23.000 Howard Hills shoot and uh, things that wouldn't let you 0:22:23.080 --> 0:22:25.600 do now, you know. We're all on the auditorium there, 0:22:25.960 --> 0:22:28.240 and and the opening thing was the targets up on 0:22:28.240 --> 0:22:30.400 the stage and he comes through the doors the back 0:22:30.440 --> 0:22:33.719 and shooting airs over everybody's head into the target up 0:22:33.760 --> 0:22:35.720 on stage. And that was back in the day where 0:22:35.720 --> 0:22:38.200 he'd have assistance, you know, whole stuff and shoot it 0:22:38.200 --> 0:22:40.080 out of their hands and put it on the head 0:22:40.080 --> 0:22:44.320 and shoot it off their head. So they would go 0:22:44.400 --> 0:22:47.760 nuts for stuff like that. Now, wasn't it Burrows? William? 0:22:47.840 --> 0:22:50.439 Was it William Burrows that shot his wife trying to 0:22:50.440 --> 0:22:53.000 shoot Apple's off her head? Oh goodness, I do not 0:22:53.200 --> 0:22:58.560 now know. Tropical tropic of cancer and tropic capricorn author, 0:22:59.000 --> 0:23:01.600 wasn't that hill they got the drink in one night? 0:23:01.960 --> 0:23:07.359 H So that guy like his big deal was he 0:23:07.400 --> 0:23:09.680 went he was the first guy to shoot up I 0:23:09.720 --> 0:23:11.640 don't know about the first see that's the weird part 0:23:11.680 --> 0:23:14.359 about it, Like the first guy to shoot an elephant 0:23:14.840 --> 0:23:18.480 with a bow. But there's research now that suggests that 0:23:18.720 --> 0:23:24.479 the bowl had been invented. Oh perhaps you know, I 0:23:24.520 --> 0:23:26.560 know they say the bow and arrow was invented multiple 0:23:26.560 --> 0:23:31.600 times around the world, correct, like independently, but perhaps away 0:23:31.640 --> 0:23:36.399 long time agoing after was somebody probably killed some yeah, yeah, 0:23:36.400 --> 0:23:40.679 and you do have you know tribes there uh in 0:23:40.720 --> 0:23:44.440 East Africa that like the Hogsa and so forth, uh 0:23:44.600 --> 0:23:49.000 As they hunt with poison eras. But historically there's four 0:23:49.040 --> 0:23:52.840 back of people to remember, uh. They would build these 0:23:53.480 --> 0:23:56.160 deep cuts into the banks going down to the rivers 0:23:56.200 --> 0:23:59.040 so that hippo and elephant could go down there and 0:23:59.040 --> 0:24:01.560 they could stand above of them and shoot them as 0:24:01.600 --> 0:24:05.760 they came through these cuts. And and who knows how 0:24:05.800 --> 0:24:10.200 far backs that goes. And with poison arrors, it's poison 0:24:10.240 --> 0:24:12.760 arrors sometimes you know, it might take them forty eight 0:24:12.760 --> 0:24:15.840 hours to die, but they fought just following the animals. 0:24:15.840 --> 0:24:20.360 He dies Yeah, there's an old documentary I've seen. You've 0:24:20.359 --> 0:24:22.720 probably seen it where these these boys go out and 0:24:22.840 --> 0:24:26.840 uh stick a draft with a poison arrow. And the 0:24:26.920 --> 0:24:30.480 documentary a friend of mine was, she's an anthropologist that 0:24:30.520 --> 0:24:32.320 she was doing work in African She sent this thing 0:24:32.320 --> 0:24:35.520 to me um and they just spent a couple of 0:24:35.560 --> 0:24:39.360 days trailing after it eventually gets pretty sick. Yeah, that's 0:24:39.400 --> 0:24:42.880 basically what they did. Kind of stands there, sweating and 0:24:43.400 --> 0:24:45.280 convulsion and whatnot, and they can finally go on and 0:24:45.359 --> 0:24:46.920 kill it, but they stuck with it for days. Well, 0:24:47.000 --> 0:24:49.840 that's why you have great, great trackers. And of course 0:24:49.880 --> 0:24:52.800 the best trackers that are laughter probably probably the Bushman 0:24:53.040 --> 0:24:57.040 and the Hodza, these tribes that hunt with with the 0:24:57.040 --> 0:25:01.120 poison arress. Uh. There's not a lot of great trackers 0:25:01.200 --> 0:25:04.480 left in Africa. There's some. They would be great by 0:25:04.480 --> 0:25:07.320 our standards, because very few people in this country can 0:25:07.359 --> 0:25:11.320 track anything. They have trouble tracking something through the snow. 0:25:12.200 --> 0:25:16.200 It's really pretty sad. But some of the I've had 0:25:16.680 --> 0:25:21.440 the opportunity to work with some trackers that were just unbelievable, uh, 0:25:21.520 --> 0:25:25.000 that literally could track animals across what looked like bare rock. 0:25:25.800 --> 0:25:29.720 I'm a pretty fair tracker. But they would they would 0:25:29.800 --> 0:25:33.320 draw a circle, says right here, and they would explain 0:25:33.359 --> 0:25:36.280 what they're seeing, and I still couldn't see it. And 0:25:36.359 --> 0:25:39.760 I'm not a bad tracker. Uh, some of them are. 0:25:39.800 --> 0:25:44.000 Just it seems super human, it really does. But there's 0:25:44.040 --> 0:25:46.840 not many of those trackers left. Did you get into 0:25:47.160 --> 0:25:52.639 medical school through the military? Drafted? I was drafted in 0:25:52.760 --> 0:25:56.480 the last draft we ever had, the United States Special 0:25:56.560 --> 0:26:01.119 Draft called forty four. All the medical people. Yeah, that 0:26:01.119 --> 0:26:02.760 one of the one when they started drawing numbers and 0:26:02.800 --> 0:26:05.399 it matches up to your last name and whatnot ever 0:26:05.480 --> 0:26:10.160 won in my life was a draft lottery and they 0:26:10.359 --> 0:26:14.600 so they drafted you. But you were already a med student. 0:26:14.960 --> 0:26:18.240 I was already out of school. Oh I got you. Yeah, 0:26:18.520 --> 0:26:21.560 I was deferred from the draft while you're in school 0:26:23.080 --> 0:26:29.120 and then got out. Okay your numbers up? Yeah? Did that? 0:26:29.320 --> 0:26:32.040 Did all that knowledge of anatomy and everything? Uh? That 0:26:32.119 --> 0:26:34.080 you were trained and when you're in school did that all? 0:26:34.600 --> 0:26:36.760 Do you think that that led you to start becoming 0:26:36.800 --> 0:26:40.440 interested in air lethality? Uh? No, I was always interested. 0:26:40.800 --> 0:26:45.120 You know, we were a hunting family, and common topics 0:26:45.160 --> 0:26:49.760 would be terminal ballistics of cartridges and bullets and things 0:26:49.800 --> 0:26:52.119 like that. And even from the very start, we'd shoot 0:26:52.119 --> 0:26:55.159 an animal and um, you know, Dad warned us to 0:26:55.240 --> 0:26:57.919 dissect it to see what the bullet did, recover the 0:26:57.920 --> 0:27:01.560 bullet we possibly could, and so forth. And I got 0:27:01.560 --> 0:27:04.680 into bow hunting, and uh, I didn't think a whole 0:27:04.760 --> 0:27:09.000 lot about it really until I've been hunting twenty five 0:27:09.119 --> 0:27:14.520 years or so, and all with traditional equipment, and I decided, okay, 0:27:14.520 --> 0:27:18.440 it's about nine eighty, I'm gonna get a compound. Now, 0:27:18.520 --> 0:27:21.879 you know, everybody's going the compounds and the amount of 0:27:21.920 --> 0:27:24.440 improvement you had in the bow and how accurate you 0:27:24.480 --> 0:27:27.320 could be with it and everything. So I read what 0:27:27.400 --> 0:27:30.840 I could find new magazines and this that bought into it. 0:27:30.920 --> 0:27:34.879 Whole hall got uh it was a garden uh compound 0:27:35.680 --> 0:27:39.960 and you got some light errors and some multi blade 0:27:40.720 --> 0:27:44.720 replaceable blade broad heads. So they had those even in 0:27:44.880 --> 0:27:47.280 nineteen eighty. Oh yeah, they had a placeable broadheads are 0:27:47.280 --> 0:27:51.040 already replaceable blade heads were oh yeah, very common then. Yeah, 0:27:51.440 --> 0:27:53.520 And was trying to remember like some of the ones, 0:27:54.440 --> 0:28:03.879 Oh yeah, thunderheads, remember having a thunderhead and what was 0:28:03.920 --> 0:28:08.960 the one hit six blades? Razor back had five and 0:28:10.920 --> 0:28:13.560 like that plastic Yeah, I had kind of that plastic 0:28:13.840 --> 0:28:18.520 combing wing on the front. Fake, I interjected, just real quick, 0:28:18.920 --> 0:28:21.760 it'll drive my dad nuts if we don't introduce our 0:28:21.800 --> 0:28:25.840 other two guests real quick. Sure, you just introduce yourself, 0:28:25.920 --> 0:28:29.240 tell us what you do. Go ahead. Second, Todd Smith, 0:28:29.359 --> 0:28:35.280 I'm with Grizzly Stick Garrett Sleef, owner a Grizzly Stick Arrows, 0:28:35.440 --> 0:28:39.120 and we've been working with Doc on his research for 0:28:39.400 --> 0:28:45.160 a long time years, So we're starting with your dad, 0:28:45.320 --> 0:28:48.960 starting back with two generations of working on this stuff. 0:28:49.000 --> 0:28:51.600 And we were kind of the first guys to really 0:28:51.680 --> 0:28:54.960 look at what he was brilliant and then try to 0:28:55.000 --> 0:28:57.960 build equipment following what what he was doing. So we 0:28:58.000 --> 0:29:00.240 didn't really have a roadmap. It was just more of yeah, 0:29:00.280 --> 0:29:02.280 and we were learning news. We went well, I mean 0:29:02.320 --> 0:29:05.400 we were still learning lots of it. We've learned lots. 0:29:08.200 --> 0:29:11.440 There's still a lot of unanswered questions. Yep. Thank you 0:29:11.560 --> 0:29:16.680 appreciated it. Yep. So when do you uh was your 0:29:16.720 --> 0:29:19.080 first was that deal when you went to shoot the 0:29:19.240 --> 0:29:23.680 rhino in South Africa? Was toying with getting uh? Both season? Yeah? 0:29:24.280 --> 0:29:26.760 What year were they thinking about doing that? And they 0:29:26.840 --> 0:29:29.760 ultimately did it right, we went eight four and eighty five. 0:29:30.200 --> 0:29:33.680 I shouldn't say a bow season they're gonna legalize, Yeah, 0:29:33.920 --> 0:29:36.160 but the I mean, it's it's surprising to me that 0:29:36.200 --> 0:29:39.800 they even had at that time. A lot of countries 0:29:39.800 --> 0:29:42.840 in Africa probably didn't. They probably hadn't prohibited it because 0:29:42.840 --> 0:29:47.120 they didn't have that you could legally hunt. Were places 0:29:47.160 --> 0:29:50.120 that were signing on on ways and means there's the 0:29:50.160 --> 0:29:52.960 only place you could legally bow hunt. That law in 0:29:53.080 --> 0:29:56.400 South Africa was the first affirmative bow winting law in 0:29:56.440 --> 0:30:00.920 Africa in si So prior to that, prior they had 0:30:01.000 --> 0:30:04.000 spelled out what leader was no place that it set 0:30:04.160 --> 0:30:08.600 is legal to bow hunt. So if you want, if 0:30:08.680 --> 0:30:11.080 you look at look at those early hunts that everybody did, 0:30:11.200 --> 0:30:14.960 like Bob Swinehard and Howard Hill. Uh they did him 0:30:15.000 --> 0:30:18.840 up in Kenya which was still open then Uh, Tanzania 0:30:19.400 --> 0:30:23.880 and Mozambi all places that were silent. That's where like 0:30:23.960 --> 0:30:28.480 the adeladdle crowd drifts off to Alaska. Yeah, or that 0:30:28.640 --> 0:30:30.600 dude that wanted to kill a barrow the spear like 0:30:30.720 --> 0:30:33.480 she went somewhere in the Mississippi. Then after they did that, 0:30:33.560 --> 0:30:35.320 they clarified it that in fact, you can't kill a 0:30:35.360 --> 0:30:38.200 barrow to spear and yeah, yeah, I got you. So 0:30:38.280 --> 0:30:41.040 South Africa was the first place in Africa to decide 0:30:41.080 --> 0:30:45.880 to do after we did all decide, presented it all 0:30:46.000 --> 0:30:49.280 to the parks board. Uh, they legalized bow hunting and 0:30:49.320 --> 0:30:52.719 then it's just Domino, you know. Then it was Zimbabwe 0:30:53.040 --> 0:30:56.080 and it was Zambia and it wasn't a maybe. Uh 0:30:56.200 --> 0:30:57.920 and it just went on and on because they were 0:30:57.920 --> 0:31:00.320 afraid of lose in business. So yeah, well once they say, hey, 0:31:00.680 --> 0:31:02.760 you know these people getting this bow hunting money in, 0:31:03.040 --> 0:31:06.040 so you know they're making foreign you know, for X 0:31:06.200 --> 0:31:09.200 is coming in. Uh, let's get on the bandwagon here 0:31:09.240 --> 0:31:13.480 and get some of this. When you earlier mentioned getting 0:31:13.520 --> 0:31:17.280 into compound bows and you said, like you bought into 0:31:17.280 --> 0:31:20.080 you bought into all that, bought into all? What to 0:31:20.600 --> 0:31:23.520 the light fast arass you know? And U what I 0:31:23.560 --> 0:31:30.240 had beamons, remember little skinny beamons, And that year I 0:31:30.400 --> 0:31:34.440 hit and lost four deer. I had never done that, 0:31:35.360 --> 0:31:40.280 So I said, something's wrong. So I did what I 0:31:40.360 --> 0:31:42.400 would have done with a rifle. I said, you know, 0:31:42.480 --> 0:31:46.560 unless research, somebody who's got to research what works what 0:31:47.080 --> 0:31:50.480 doesn't other than just reading a magazine and seeing what 0:31:50.760 --> 0:31:53.920 you know, the companies are advertising and stuff is being pushed. 0:31:54.520 --> 0:31:57.160 So I was looking for stuff like Chamberlain's work with 0:31:57.440 --> 0:32:01.720 rifles and you know, some some honest research. Nothing, it 0:32:01.800 --> 0:32:05.200 didn't exist. So I decided, okay, I'm gonna have to 0:32:05.240 --> 0:32:08.840 find out for myself. And now this was about you know, 0:32:09.040 --> 0:32:12.120 early ages before the Tall thing came up. So I 0:32:12.280 --> 0:32:16.680 was already started doing stuff and looking at what was 0:32:16.760 --> 0:32:19.680 happening before the the Tall thing. Well, when the Tall 0:32:19.760 --> 0:32:24.000 thing just really kicked started me. Now I had a database. 0:32:24.200 --> 0:32:26.480 I mean, we had to really collect data to do 0:32:26.640 --> 0:32:29.880 these reports for the Tall Parks Board. Well the time 0:32:30.000 --> 0:32:34.240 we did than the Tall study, I had more questions 0:32:35.000 --> 0:32:37.640 than I did when I started that. And I found 0:32:37.680 --> 0:32:40.320 that all the way through twenty six years of research 0:32:40.800 --> 0:32:42.880 is every time I do and you set a test, 0:32:43.480 --> 0:32:45.800 I end up with a new set of questions of 0:32:45.920 --> 0:32:48.000 things to look at, and I'm still not through. That's 0:32:48.000 --> 0:32:51.200 why we established the foundation because after I hurt my back, 0:32:51.280 --> 0:32:55.360 I can't do anymore. Uh So somebody had to take over. 0:32:56.280 --> 0:32:59.240 And you're not gonna find any idiots like me. I 0:32:59.360 --> 0:33:02.400 did all of eye out of my own pocket. Every era, 0:33:02.600 --> 0:33:07.280 every Broadhead, every feather, everything was purchased by myself. I 0:33:07.360 --> 0:33:10.160 won't to stay independent of the archery industry. Wish we 0:33:10.240 --> 0:33:13.920 still do. We do not take donations from archery companies 0:33:14.400 --> 0:33:17.800 things like that. Yeah, noticing on your boy's website, the 0:33:17.840 --> 0:33:21.440 Grizzly Stick website, there's a note on the bottom that says, uh, 0:33:22.280 --> 0:33:25.240 because you have an asked me Broadhead yep, but a 0:33:25.320 --> 0:33:27.040 note on the bomb says you won't take any money 0:33:27.080 --> 0:33:29.600 from that Broadhead. Nope, not even a little bit. Nope. 0:33:31.000 --> 0:33:33.200 That was hard. That was part of the agreement. That 0:33:33.360 --> 0:33:38.040 was everybody, I wouldn't use my name on it. Yeah, 0:33:38.280 --> 0:33:40.240 and I'm not that smart, but I got I'm like, 0:33:40.360 --> 0:33:44.840 that sounds like a pretty good deal. Yeah. The other 0:33:44.920 --> 0:33:49.760 covenants on there was not at all. The other covenant was, 0:33:49.840 --> 0:33:53.640 when we do the testing, if the Broadhead works, you 0:33:54.000 --> 0:33:56.640 pull use my name on it YEA, with a disclaimer 0:33:56.760 --> 0:33:59.800 that I don't receive any funds out at it. Because 0:34:00.280 --> 0:34:05.040 unless you stay totally independent of industry, your research is tainted. 0:34:05.880 --> 0:34:09.680 And there's a lot of stuff out there, a lot 0:34:09.760 --> 0:34:13.360 of wound lost studies that were financed by the archery 0:34:13.400 --> 0:34:17.680 industry that come up with these incredibly low wounding rates 0:34:18.320 --> 0:34:24.759 by archery standards. They're showing. All of the studies that 0:34:24.840 --> 0:34:29.719 were independently done by game departments all show almost a 0:34:29.800 --> 0:34:33.359 one to one race. I would say, I would say 0:34:33.360 --> 0:34:36.080 it with and I would say with Elkin America, I 0:34:36.200 --> 0:34:38.040 definitely say that that's the case. I think it is 0:34:38.239 --> 0:34:40.920 just about everything. And I guided while I was in Africa. 0:34:41.000 --> 0:34:44.080 I did quiet particularly there's bow hunters. I'm sort of 0:34:44.120 --> 0:34:46.600 a freelance guide, so you know, if they had too 0:34:46.640 --> 0:34:48.440 many clients, I would go in or if they had 0:34:48.440 --> 0:34:51.120 bow hunting clients because there was almost nobody over there 0:34:51.120 --> 0:34:53.400 and anything about bow hunting that I would go in 0:34:53.480 --> 0:34:57.400 and work with whoever with their bow hunting clients. And 0:34:57.480 --> 0:35:01.319 I would say it's definitely it least one to one 0:35:01.760 --> 0:35:05.280 in Africa, whether the equipment that people were bringing and using. 0:35:06.520 --> 0:35:10.799 Yet you can cut it down to almost nothing as 0:35:10.880 --> 0:35:16.920 I got towards the better error systems. UH. Out of 0:35:17.200 --> 0:35:20.280 the last twenty five years where I have actual records 0:35:20.840 --> 0:35:24.440 tracking the animals that I've killed, there's six hundred and 0:35:24.520 --> 0:35:32.640 twenty seven animals, four lost animals four. I get that, 0:35:32.760 --> 0:35:35.200 but like it has so much to do with ask 0:35:35.239 --> 0:35:37.799 your question about consistency, Yanni, because it has so much 0:35:37.840 --> 0:35:39.480 to do with like, did you punch a hole through 0:35:39.480 --> 0:35:41.600 its heart? Like if you're if you're a very good 0:35:41.719 --> 0:35:43.799 archer taking very close shots, you're gonna have a very 0:35:43.880 --> 0:35:48.680 high recovery rate. You can't really always do that. I 0:35:48.840 --> 0:35:51.640 was a ground hunter. I've shot a few animals out 0:35:51.680 --> 0:35:55.680 of tree stands up, but very few stalker. Now, stalkers 0:35:55.719 --> 0:36:00.520 don't necessarily get set up shots. Now, my whole goal 0:36:01.120 --> 0:36:04.279 from the get go was to find the most effective 0:36:04.560 --> 0:36:07.880 error system you could possibly use, because a lot of 0:36:07.920 --> 0:36:12.800 the shots I took were shots that they're not broadside shots, 0:36:14.360 --> 0:36:19.240 you know, they're long quartering shots facing you, shots moving animals, 0:36:19.280 --> 0:36:20.480 you know. I used to when I was a kid. 0:36:20.560 --> 0:36:23.080 I mean, we shot a lot of moving targets. Animals 0:36:23.160 --> 0:36:26.080 just as big moving as he is standing still. Target 0:36:26.160 --> 0:36:28.560 size is still the same. So I didn't have too 0:36:28.640 --> 0:36:31.600 much trouble at all shooting moving animals. Now. We used 0:36:31.640 --> 0:36:35.640 to do a lot of bird hunting and stuff flying birds. Uh, weller, 0:36:35.719 --> 0:36:37.120 both didn't hit a lot of them. It's got a 0:36:37.160 --> 0:36:40.000 lot of practice running rabbits in front of dogs, and 0:36:40.120 --> 0:36:43.480 you can get pretty good on running shots, good enough 0:36:43.520 --> 0:36:46.960 to shoot big animals. A big animal actually gets pretty 0:36:46.960 --> 0:36:49.120 easy after you, you know, practice on stuff like that. 0:36:50.000 --> 0:36:54.560 Nobody does that kind of stuff anymore, um. And you know, 0:36:54.719 --> 0:36:57.800 there were some things in there that I didn't have, 0:36:57.880 --> 0:37:00.719 a lot of animals that were gut shots. I've never 0:37:00.920 --> 0:37:02.719 lost a gut shot as I got into these better 0:37:02.800 --> 0:37:06.120 era setups. But a lot of that's careful management of 0:37:06.840 --> 0:37:11.440 after the shot, of leaving it long enough, of stalking 0:37:11.480 --> 0:37:15.400 the trail, you know, and and not spooking just like 0:37:15.560 --> 0:37:20.319 you're hunting the animal again to find it. And most 0:37:20.360 --> 0:37:23.120 of the time, if you give them eight, ten, twelve hours, 0:37:23.480 --> 0:37:27.759 they're dead. Um. As a matter of fact, I don't 0:37:27.760 --> 0:37:30.200 think I've ever had one go beyond about a hundred 0:37:30.200 --> 0:37:34.120 and sixty yards when I didn't pursue him. He feels bad, 0:37:34.239 --> 0:37:38.000 he lays down, You give him time, and he will 0:37:38.080 --> 0:37:41.080 bleed out. There's a lot of think of your digestive system. 0:37:41.480 --> 0:37:45.600 There is a lot of blood vessels in there carrying 0:37:45.600 --> 0:37:49.880 away all this digestive food, nutrients and so forth. And 0:37:50.040 --> 0:37:55.840 the single bevel heads that rotate actually will wind intestines 0:37:55.920 --> 0:37:57.880 up around them, and you get a thing called a 0:37:58.000 --> 0:38:00.879 starbursts cut. Now, I didn't know this. TI was doing 0:38:00.880 --> 0:38:04.480 a lot of the research. But you'll get cuts that 0:38:04.600 --> 0:38:07.839 are five or six inches away from the path where 0:38:07.880 --> 0:38:10.960 the air went through, where it's wound stuff up around 0:38:11.040 --> 0:38:14.000 it and made all these little cuts. And I was 0:38:14.080 --> 0:38:17.600 doing that by taking die in a syringe and injecting 0:38:17.680 --> 0:38:20.040 it into the intestines and looking at them where the 0:38:20.120 --> 0:38:24.040 dye is coming out, And so you get these huge 0:38:24.080 --> 0:38:28.239 starbursts cuts in mobile tissues, and you get some of 0:38:28.280 --> 0:38:31.280 that effect even in lung tissues, where it just almost 0:38:31.480 --> 0:38:38.359 liquefies the lungs just MUSHes it up. And I've got 0:38:39.520 --> 0:38:43.120 a lot of photos of dear that you will look 0:38:43.200 --> 0:38:45.879 at and think they were shot with a rifle because 0:38:45.920 --> 0:38:48.840 of the amount of blood shot tissue. You do not 0:38:49.000 --> 0:38:53.240 get that with double bevel heads. Let's save the double 0:38:53.320 --> 0:38:55.000 and single bevel you you want to get into that 0:38:55.120 --> 0:38:59.319 right now. I want to get into grains, all right, 0:39:01.400 --> 0:39:03.520 explain that you are we there? Yeah? Have we covered 0:39:03.560 --> 0:39:07.319 off on enough of like how we how doc did 0:39:07.440 --> 0:39:11.680 the studies? No? Okay? But for people that aren't real 0:39:11.760 --> 0:39:15.399 familiar with aero setups, that's true. I think that when 0:39:15.400 --> 0:39:17.279 he's talking about aero setups, I think people need to 0:39:17.280 --> 0:39:21.080 know what he's talking About's true, that's true. Um, it's 0:39:21.080 --> 0:39:24.080 an arcane unit of measurement. But explain what a grain 0:39:24.239 --> 0:39:26.319 is because we're gonna talk a lot about grains. Well, 0:39:26.840 --> 0:39:29.480 it is a unit of measure, and there's seven thousand 0:39:29.560 --> 0:39:33.320 grains to a pound. What is that based off just 0:39:33.520 --> 0:39:37.759 counting up powder grains? Well, I'm not counting grains, but 0:39:37.920 --> 0:39:40.680 that's where the unit of measure works out. That's what 0:39:40.880 --> 0:39:43.920 a grain is. Yeah, but it's got seven thousands of 0:39:44.000 --> 0:39:47.080 a pounds. It's an English measure moment, it's got to 0:39:47.120 --> 0:39:50.279 be something like some dude took a pound, some dude 0:39:50.280 --> 0:39:54.000 took a pound of like granulated powder or something. No, no, 0:39:54.120 --> 0:39:58.439 it came from actual like seeds or whatever. I don't know. Yeah, 0:39:58.560 --> 0:40:00.280 I don't remember which one of the stage, but together 0:40:00.360 --> 0:40:03.160 a unit, it came from like a foot about as 0:40:03.200 --> 0:40:07.000 long as your foot. Yeah, So that's where all these 0:40:07.040 --> 0:40:10.480 weird English stuff comes from. Is you know, what's the 0:40:10.520 --> 0:40:13.560 cloth yard? What's the foot? What's the yard? Yeah? You 0:40:13.600 --> 0:40:17.520 know there's a clay nucom our colleague. He's telling me 0:40:17.600 --> 0:40:21.440 there's an old unit of measurement called the eel. How 0:40:21.520 --> 0:40:26.000 it's spelled, and it's No, it's a deer neck. It's 0:40:26.000 --> 0:40:27.879 a sack made out of it. It's a sack made 0:40:27.920 --> 0:40:31.600 from a deer's neck. And you would and they would 0:40:31.680 --> 0:40:35.000 put how you would sell tallo, you would sell tallow 0:40:35.080 --> 0:40:37.960 in it, and it would be an eel. We're trying 0:40:38.000 --> 0:40:40.440 to start a cryptocurrency called we're trying to start a 0:40:40.480 --> 0:40:44.320 cryptocurrency called bear grease, and it's gonna trade and eels. 0:40:45.239 --> 0:40:48.480 That'd be good bear greacy, useful stuff. This. We got 0:40:48.520 --> 0:40:51.759 a whole plan for this cryptocurrency. Man, it's gonna a 0:40:51.760 --> 0:40:55.719 little bit point out of the water. Uh. Okay, So 0:40:58.080 --> 0:41:00.920 seven thousand grains to a what can you give it 0:41:00.960 --> 0:41:03.480 in like fractions of it converted to metric or or 0:41:03.480 --> 0:41:04.640 don't you know how to do that? On top of 0:41:04.640 --> 0:41:12.520 your head? Four hundred and what is it? Thirty something? Tom, 0:41:13.320 --> 0:41:16.920 It's something like that. It's four thirty something. Okay, I 0:41:16.960 --> 0:41:20.279 can't remember exactly what point. Uh, let's say the point 0:41:20.360 --> 0:41:24.320 being this, most broadheads today, most like when you go 0:41:24.400 --> 0:41:30.040 online and buy broadheads, um, you'll hit a little drop 0:41:30.120 --> 0:41:34.719 down menu and it's virtually certain that they're gonna be 0:41:34.760 --> 0:41:43.680 available on one tens and hundred was if they got 0:41:43.760 --> 0:41:48.239 to that'll be the two right, yeah, um, and those 0:41:48.280 --> 0:41:51.720 are what I mean they're they're not an ounce fractions 0:41:51.760 --> 0:41:56.000 of an ounce and then the arrow explain arrow weeight 0:41:56.160 --> 0:41:59.040 like like like you're like, what would be the most 0:41:59.160 --> 0:42:02.680 like currently day most guys going into their archery shop 0:42:03.239 --> 0:42:06.239 and buying arrows for a contemporary compound set up or 0:42:06.280 --> 0:42:11.600 buying arrows, and what would you say is three. It's 0:42:11.600 --> 0:42:16.960 about where they're gonna be, and that is people maximizing speed. Well, 0:42:17.320 --> 0:42:21.719 speed has been pushed. Kinnetic energy has been pushed to 0:42:21.800 --> 0:42:26.640 get connetic energy because the formulas squares the velocity. It 0:42:27.000 --> 0:42:31.280 looks really good as sells speed cells. And the industry 0:42:31.400 --> 0:42:35.600 has pushed this stuff since the nineteen fifties when the 0:42:35.800 --> 0:42:39.920 Allen compound first came out, and then the Jennings compound 0:42:40.080 --> 0:42:43.480 and and those were the first of the compound bows 0:42:44.560 --> 0:42:48.400 and uh, they were so much faster than traditional bows. 0:42:48.840 --> 0:42:50.920 And then as they got them faster and faster and faster. 0:42:51.360 --> 0:42:55.400 This is what people buy. I met a guy at 0:42:55.440 --> 0:42:58.120 the archery range when it was out tuning Eras in 0:42:58.480 --> 0:43:03.960 Australia who had just bought a new bowl because this 0:43:04.200 --> 0:43:06.640 new bowl was four ft per second faster than his 0:43:06.800 --> 0:43:11.960 old boat. He spent on this boat to get four 0:43:12.000 --> 0:43:14.880 ft per second m HM, which is not gonna make 0:43:14.920 --> 0:43:18.040 a bit of difference. It is the error that kills. 0:43:18.840 --> 0:43:21.560 I'd be much happier to go out here and there's 0:43:21.560 --> 0:43:23.800 no onld Indians. It's the arrow that kills, but it 0:43:23.800 --> 0:43:27.560 doesn't kill land on the ground. You have to once 0:43:28.400 --> 0:43:31.640 it's in fly. He didn't know what launched it care 0:43:31.760 --> 0:43:34.440 like damn sure knows how fast it's going. It knows 0:43:34.480 --> 0:43:36.359 how fast it's going and how much force has got, 0:43:36.400 --> 0:43:38.000 but it doesn't take as much as you think it 0:43:38.080 --> 0:43:41.680 does to get it to perform. Still, it's still, it's 0:43:41.680 --> 0:43:44.480 gonna be moving. It's gotta be moving. Moving one mile 0:43:44.560 --> 0:43:47.759 an hour isn't gonna do it. So there's a point. 0:43:47.920 --> 0:43:50.120 I mean, there's an argument to be made for it 0:43:50.280 --> 0:43:53.040 moving really fast. Well, there's a argument to be made 0:43:53.080 --> 0:43:57.680 for not moving fast. It's moving at late speed. The 0:43:57.800 --> 0:44:08.160 resistance quadruple as the speed doubles. Example is go down 0:44:08.239 --> 0:44:11.400 the road at thirty miles an hour and stick your 0:44:11.440 --> 0:44:13.719 hand out the wind and field of resistance. Now go 0:44:13.920 --> 0:44:17.800 sixty and field of resistance. Now go ninety and field 0:44:17.800 --> 0:44:21.520 of resistance it goes up as the square of the 0:44:21.640 --> 0:44:24.919 velocity inquiries, so you get at ninety, you've got nine 0:44:25.040 --> 0:44:29.040 times of resistance you have at thirty. One of the 0:44:29.120 --> 0:44:31.080 things we're finding because we get all his data back 0:44:31.160 --> 0:44:36.600 in from thousands of hunters over Buffalo shot now and 0:44:37.000 --> 0:44:41.480 over a hundred elephants with these era setups, we're seeing 0:44:41.640 --> 0:44:48.560 more passed through shots with bows sub seventy pound film 0:44:48.640 --> 0:44:51.640 war with heavier draw eight bows. That's one of the 0:44:51.680 --> 0:44:55.279 things we're gonna research. Something's happening. We don't know what, 0:44:56.040 --> 0:44:59.080 but there it's a significant difference in the number of 0:44:59.120 --> 0:45:03.719 passed through shots. Is it the tissue resistance going up 0:45:04.000 --> 0:45:06.400 at the higher veloss Like, is it more flexional in 0:45:06.440 --> 0:45:09.920 the shaft on the shafts not stiff enough to handle 0:45:09.960 --> 0:45:14.200 the impact at the higher force? You know what? What 0:45:14.440 --> 0:45:16.080 is it? We got to find out that's less one 0:45:16.080 --> 0:45:18.880 of the things on our list of research. Okay, Yanni 0:45:18.920 --> 0:45:22.800 asked all about the research now. So man, there's a 0:45:22.840 --> 0:45:25.800 lot of questions right now because I think you just 0:45:26.200 --> 0:45:29.320 very quickly because numerous times now you've said, like the 0:45:29.520 --> 0:45:32.200 arrow set ups that we're using now, So we sort 0:45:32.239 --> 0:45:35.800 of Steve laid out what the what like a contemporary 0:45:36.440 --> 0:45:39.040 you know in this crowd seems to be an insufficient 0:45:39.120 --> 0:45:41.560 arrow set up. So explain what the what a sufficient 0:45:41.840 --> 0:45:44.240 arrow set up is? Now that what we're talking about. 0:45:44.560 --> 0:45:46.440 And then also on the heels of that, tell me 0:45:47.120 --> 0:45:49.400 when when all these other archers are sending in this 0:45:49.560 --> 0:45:52.200 information and data points, I want to know, like, is 0:45:52.239 --> 0:45:54.840 it just like a phone call and they're sort of 0:45:54.920 --> 0:45:57.960 giving you, like the anecdotal story of what happened or 0:45:58.120 --> 0:46:01.080 is it literally they have a form? Don't that they 0:46:01.160 --> 0:46:04.000 fell out for you. I've tried having other people collect 0:46:04.200 --> 0:46:06.360 form dat I was called out the forms and stuff, 0:46:06.920 --> 0:46:09.520 and you can't get people do it. It's a lot 0:46:09.600 --> 0:46:13.120 of work. They just won't do it. It's just too much. 0:46:13.680 --> 0:46:16.799 Pictures you get, pictures you get. We get a lot 0:46:16.840 --> 0:46:20.360 of dissection pictures though people. I try to push that 0:46:20.600 --> 0:46:23.759 if I could get every hunter, every bow hunter, to 0:46:24.000 --> 0:46:27.759 just dissect the animals he shoots and look at what 0:46:27.920 --> 0:46:31.040 has happened. But more importantly, if he ever get the 0:46:31.120 --> 0:46:35.440 chance to dissect the unsuccessful shots to find out when 0:46:35.480 --> 0:46:38.160 they want they fail, That's where you really learned something. 0:46:38.719 --> 0:46:41.920 Successful shot didn't tell me much. But anytime there's an 0:46:42.000 --> 0:46:46.160 unsuccessful shot, it gives you an opportunity to find out 0:46:47.080 --> 0:46:51.799 what happened, why did it fail? And that's really where 0:46:51.840 --> 0:46:55.920 you learn to develop these better error systems. If I 0:46:56.040 --> 0:46:59.200 take what I like to call a penetration maximized ERA 0:47:00.280 --> 0:47:04.000 and put it against what I would consider a good error, 0:47:05.800 --> 0:47:08.759 better than what most people are shooting today, I can 0:47:09.239 --> 0:47:14.879 more than triple the penetration. That's fifteen inches and set 0:47:14.920 --> 0:47:19.840 of five are thirty inches instead of ten. That's a 0:47:19.920 --> 0:47:24.160 big difference penetration. We've got people out there with women 0:47:24.680 --> 0:47:29.319 with with low forty pound compounds getting five and six 0:47:29.400 --> 0:47:33.200 ft of penetration on things like eating on quartering shots. 0:47:35.000 --> 0:47:37.479 It's incredible. Explain the aerra set ups that they're using. 0:47:38.520 --> 0:47:43.200 Those those ERA setups are very high FOC because most 0:47:43.239 --> 0:47:47.239 of them are short drawals. Would would normally bet or 0:47:47.280 --> 0:47:51.920 more with the ERA set ups that they're using. FOC 0:47:52.480 --> 0:47:56.520 that's the weight forward the center and uh we actually 0:47:56.600 --> 0:48:01.120 established munch those because traditionally you had you know, a 0:48:01.280 --> 0:48:04.640 low FOC in a normal FOC, which was you know, 0:48:04.760 --> 0:48:07.160 eight or nine percent, and then a high one which 0:48:07.280 --> 0:48:12.120 was fifteen and sometimes as much as eight. And as 0:48:12.200 --> 0:48:13.920 I got into the research, I had to develop some 0:48:14.080 --> 0:48:16.760 names for other stuff. So we went into extreme FOC, 0:48:17.320 --> 0:48:20.760 which is from nineteen on up to thirty and above 0:48:20.880 --> 0:48:23.839 thirty we call ultra extreme. Now, the reason I come 0:48:23.920 --> 0:48:26.719 up with those names was real quick to explain the 0:48:26.800 --> 0:48:31.080 percentage of talking about that's how much the weight the 0:48:31.200 --> 0:48:34.320 balance point of the area is full of the center 0:48:34.480 --> 0:48:37.960 of the era, the physical center. Yeah, but how do 0:48:38.040 --> 0:48:40.400 you I don't understand how it's reflected in percentages and 0:48:40.480 --> 0:48:44.480 not is the is the percentage that it is forward 0:48:44.520 --> 0:48:47.400 to the center, and then you count from the knock 0:48:47.880 --> 0:48:50.560 to the front of the broadhood the shaf you can 0:48:50.719 --> 0:48:54.600 use there. They are both methods are used, but the 0:48:55.360 --> 0:48:59.200 AMO standard is from the throw to the knock to 0:48:59.440 --> 0:49:02.080 the end of the shaft, does not include the head. 0:49:03.680 --> 0:49:06.000 About the overall set up you're talking about the erralf 0:49:06.160 --> 0:49:08.239 I prefer that one because if you take the same 0:49:08.320 --> 0:49:10.600 era and you put a field point on it and 0:49:10.680 --> 0:49:12.359 a broad head on it, they're gonna be different links 0:49:12.680 --> 0:49:16.440 and you're count with different FOC percentages. The FOC we 0:49:16.560 --> 0:49:20.080 measure is a relative term, just like the static spine 0:49:20.120 --> 0:49:23.960 of an era. It does not tell you much dynamically. 0:49:24.320 --> 0:49:27.879 FOC actually is an aeronautical term and it's how far 0:49:28.560 --> 0:49:32.760 the center of gravity is from the center of pressure 0:49:33.280 --> 0:49:38.200 of an object in flight. M hm. So we've just 0:49:38.560 --> 0:49:42.520 used that picked it up an archery because it gives 0:49:42.640 --> 0:49:46.080 us a rough idea. Now with it works the same 0:49:46.120 --> 0:49:49.280 way with a plane. The higher the FOC with the plane, 0:49:49.480 --> 0:49:52.040 the more stable the plane is in flight, the harder 0:49:52.040 --> 0:49:54.520 it is to turn the plane. The lower the foc, 0:49:54.680 --> 0:49:56.920 the more maneuverable it is. Well, which one do you 0:49:57.000 --> 0:49:59.040 want your error? You want your error going all over 0:49:59.080 --> 0:50:01.960 the place? Do you want it only if you have 0:50:02.040 --> 0:50:06.200 a saying where it's going? You want possible? But now 0:50:06.320 --> 0:50:09.120 I like to listen to that analogy before and something 0:50:09.440 --> 0:50:12.120 that I was listening to you speak, and yeah, it's 0:50:12.160 --> 0:50:15.799 like a fighter jet. As the foc is very low 0:50:16.120 --> 0:50:20.360 take F twenty two. Rafter can almost fly sideways. But 0:50:20.480 --> 0:50:22.759 a human cannot fly it. He has to have a 0:50:22.840 --> 0:50:27.600 computer to do it. It's that unstable. But you take 0:50:28.400 --> 0:50:32.640 uh k C one thirty all that it has a 0:50:32.760 --> 0:50:37.319 high weight forward as stable as can be. Probably can 0:50:37.360 --> 0:50:39.080 sit there and turn loose of it for two or 0:50:39.080 --> 0:50:43.560 three medicine talk to you it is that's the big difference, 0:50:43.600 --> 0:50:46.360 and that's one of the benefits of high foc in 0:50:46.400 --> 0:50:49.600 an era. An era is always once it leaves the boat, 0:50:49.640 --> 0:50:56.080 it's always flying. The medium that it goes through changes 0:50:57.040 --> 0:50:59.839 It flies through the air, it flies through the skin, 0:51:00.040 --> 0:51:03.360 and it flies through the audipose tissue, through the muscle, 0:51:03.520 --> 0:51:06.200 through the bone, all the way through. The animal is 0:51:06.280 --> 0:51:10.279 still flying until it comes to stop. It's flying even 0:51:10.320 --> 0:51:11.960 when it hits the dirt. As long as this movie 0:51:12.239 --> 0:51:16.040 is still flying, it's just flying through dirt now, so 0:51:16.200 --> 0:51:17.960 you have to get the concept of what it's doing. 0:51:18.480 --> 0:51:22.879 This stability carries on through the animal. This is where 0:51:22.920 --> 0:51:26.360 it really makes a difference in terminal ballistics. To have 0:51:27.400 --> 0:51:31.160 that high foc is we now have a very stable 0:51:31.320 --> 0:51:36.040 era that is much more difficult to redirect. To have 0:51:37.160 --> 0:51:40.239 hit a bone and glance off at an angle so 0:51:40.440 --> 0:51:43.280 higher we get the foc. It makes a huge difference. 0:51:43.320 --> 0:51:46.480 Now it makes no difference in the testing we have 0:51:46.640 --> 0:51:50.080 so far, makes no difference as far as penetrating a 0:51:50.160 --> 0:51:54.560 heavy bone. That depends totally on the weight of the 0:51:54.640 --> 0:51:56.760 air how long he is able to push on the bone. 0:51:57.920 --> 0:52:02.520 But once it breaches the bone, the foc comes into play, 0:52:03.120 --> 0:52:05.880 and that's where you get a huge increase in post 0:52:06.000 --> 0:52:20.640 breaching penetration the archery industry's reluctance to look at what 0:52:20.840 --> 0:52:28.680 you have. You're divorced from the industry intentionally. Um, they're 0:52:28.680 --> 0:52:32.399 coming around though, Yeah, but I mean are you how 0:52:32.719 --> 0:52:35.319 were you making your own broadheads? And like, how are 0:52:35.360 --> 0:52:37.640 you testing different setups that didn't exist if the archery 0:52:37.640 --> 0:52:40.640 industry didn't produce them. Uh. The only single bevel was 0:52:40.680 --> 0:52:44.319 out there was the Grizzly and I used a lot 0:52:44.400 --> 0:52:46.920 of and that's not what they made is different when 0:52:47.000 --> 0:52:51.319 Harry Elberd used to make um and Uh, I mean 0:52:51.400 --> 0:52:54.239 the way the different way arrows. How are you making those? 0:52:54.719 --> 0:52:57.120 I was building them up, I was waiting the eras 0:52:57.760 --> 0:52:59.960 there all sorts of different things like drilling them out 0:53:00.000 --> 0:53:02.360 and filling them and stuff. Uh. Some I feel some 0:53:02.480 --> 0:53:07.120 were double shafted eras. Uh, some internally footed eras. Uh. 0:53:07.360 --> 0:53:10.480 All sorts of ways to increase the weight on there. 0:53:10.760 --> 0:53:13.399 And uh yes, Uh in the early days, I made 0:53:13.400 --> 0:53:16.320 a lot of the uh when they weren't available, steal inserts, 0:53:16.400 --> 0:53:19.920 brass inserts, had people make them for me. Machinist. I'm 0:53:19.920 --> 0:53:23.000 lon't good enough to make them. Uh, I see, but 0:53:23.520 --> 0:53:25.840 that's what I was curious, Like so you had to 0:53:25.880 --> 0:53:29.479 be You were testing things that didn't technically not didn't exist. 0:53:29.560 --> 0:53:31.880 You were testing things that weren't available on the market, 0:53:32.120 --> 0:53:34.680 right because I was finding as I would do a 0:53:34.800 --> 0:53:38.000 test and I would say, Okay, we need to look 0:53:38.680 --> 0:53:41.319 at this, and we need to look at this. Well, 0:53:41.520 --> 0:53:45.320 this isn't available for all that out of pocket. Everybody 0:53:45.320 --> 0:53:50.279 at it, even having hardness. You get married, to have kids, uh, 0:53:50.480 --> 0:53:55.160 married twice, divorce twice. I learned what they think? What 0:53:55.239 --> 0:53:58.600 do they think about all that arrowhead buying and all that? Uh, 0:53:59.520 --> 0:54:03.960 I'm divorced twice. Probably How long did you stay married? 0:54:04.000 --> 0:54:09.040 The longest thirteen years? Yeah, yeah, the next one was 0:54:09.440 --> 0:54:12.480 three years. I got smarter factors. I just had my 0:54:12.560 --> 0:54:18.640 thirteenth anniversary. Yeah. So you were saying that the current 0:54:18.760 --> 0:54:22.320 the heavy aerosystems that you like high FOC. Can you 0:54:22.400 --> 0:54:26.360 explained FOC, but then explain the rest of the aero system? Okay, 0:54:27.239 --> 0:54:30.080 there are actually if you look on our website, we'll 0:54:30.120 --> 0:54:34.279 go through them in detail there Hunting Foundation. Yes, you 0:54:34.320 --> 0:54:36.719 can go through the twelve factors that are there. We 0:54:36.840 --> 0:54:39.719 also have all of the updates that we did through 0:54:39.719 --> 0:54:42.719 the years. Now when people start reading those and there's 0:54:42.760 --> 0:54:45.560 a lot of pages of them. They need to read 0:54:45.640 --> 0:54:48.360 the whole thing because some of the things early on 0:54:49.160 --> 0:54:51.400 that I look at the research and the data that 0:54:51.480 --> 0:54:54.080 we had in sent low, you know, it indicates it 0:54:54.200 --> 0:54:57.200 might be this, might be that. But we learned stuff 0:54:57.239 --> 0:55:00.000 as we go along and things get better and better, 0:55:00.000 --> 0:55:03.399 are better um as we as we do get more 0:55:03.480 --> 0:55:07.120 information on it, so we would find these new things 0:55:07.200 --> 0:55:09.840 that that need to be looked at. Man, that's just 0:55:09.920 --> 0:55:11.160 what we had to do. And if we had to 0:55:11.200 --> 0:55:14.680 build something, we built it. You know, it's just what 0:55:14.840 --> 0:55:18.240 you did. The hardest part was coming up with shafty 0:55:19.239 --> 0:55:23.760 no good shafts, and and the long process of every 0:55:23.960 --> 0:55:28.640 era that we've used in the study is teamed uh 0:55:28.920 --> 0:55:33.520 bear shaft team, every one of them. Because without that, 0:55:33.760 --> 0:55:36.560 that's one of the high factors is you've got to 0:55:36.640 --> 0:55:40.520 have structural integrity the era. That's the most important thing. 0:55:41.160 --> 0:55:43.759 Without that, it doesn't matter if it flies perfect, where 0:55:43.760 --> 0:55:46.280 do you hit the animal? Nothing. If that aer breaks 0:55:46.400 --> 0:55:49.040 or part of it breaks when it hits the animal, 0:55:50.280 --> 0:55:53.839 every everything's lost. You've got no control over what's happening. 0:55:53.840 --> 0:55:56.880 You're probably gonna lose an animal. Uh. And then you 0:55:57.040 --> 0:56:00.399 have to have perfect flight. Now those two things ever 0:56:00.640 --> 0:56:03.840 ever change. So you got to go through all this 0:56:04.080 --> 0:56:08.120 long tuning process for every error before you start testing it, 0:56:08.480 --> 0:56:12.080 or your testing is no good mm hmm. And then 0:56:12.160 --> 0:56:15.759 you go down through all of the other factors, and 0:56:16.120 --> 0:56:21.600 each factor they'll compound each other so that this factor 0:56:21.719 --> 0:56:25.160 has a certain percentage gain and this factor has a 0:56:25.239 --> 0:56:28.200 certain percentage gain. Well, if you've got one of them there, 0:56:28.239 --> 0:56:31.160 you've got this game. When this game kicks in, it 0:56:31.280 --> 0:56:34.040 takes in a portion of this game, so it keeps 0:56:34.160 --> 0:56:39.000 adding up as you go to more and more factors. Two, 0:56:39.480 --> 0:56:40.680 if you want to get the most out of it, 0:56:40.760 --> 0:56:43.680 you incorporate as many of the factors you can. But 0:56:43.880 --> 0:56:47.400 the important thing is that anything you do out of 0:56:47.440 --> 0:56:50.040 these factors to your error setup is gonna make it better. 0:56:51.840 --> 0:56:55.160 And you have twelve factors. Yeah, we have twelve factors 0:56:55.239 --> 0:56:59.279 in there. Can you go through some of them? If 0:56:59.320 --> 0:57:01.160 I get my note so out, I can, because we're 0:57:01.160 --> 0:57:07.360 gonna do that later today, because I'll forget all their 0:57:07.440 --> 0:57:11.520 ranking relative order. If you took in all shots together, 0:57:12.480 --> 0:57:17.160 the ranking will change under certain situations. For instance, the 0:57:17.560 --> 0:57:20.320 heavy bone threshold is right at the bottom of the 0:57:20.400 --> 0:57:23.600 list because it's not important unless you hit a heavy bone. 0:57:24.560 --> 0:57:27.560 But when you hit a heavy bone, it'll jump to 0:57:27.600 --> 0:57:33.760 the number three position. And so there is some movement 0:57:33.840 --> 0:57:36.800 in these things depending on the shot. That's why you incorporate. 0:57:37.320 --> 0:57:39.120 You don't know what's gonna happen on a shot. The 0:57:39.200 --> 0:57:43.400 animal's gonna move, it's rare. We've got a lot of 0:57:43.560 --> 0:57:47.560 video footage here in Texas shooting hogs and deer and stuff. 0:57:48.360 --> 0:57:53.400 Uh compounds, fast compounds, slow compounds, traditional bones, so forth. 0:57:53.480 --> 0:57:55.520 We don't have a video of an animal that does 0:57:55.600 --> 0:57:58.360 not move before the air gets there. And most of 0:57:58.400 --> 0:58:03.280 these yards m hm. So if you look at it 0:58:03.320 --> 0:58:07.560 in slow motion, the animals in motion, in motion, in motion, 0:58:07.640 --> 0:58:10.920 in response to the bow noise. Yes, and most of 0:58:11.000 --> 0:58:14.800 the time it's a duck and roll away. Duck can 0:58:14.960 --> 0:58:17.760 roll away from the source of the north from the source, 0:58:17.840 --> 0:58:21.680 but not always. Sometimes they'll completely reverse only sometimes they'll 0:58:21.680 --> 0:58:25.000 actually turn into it. But there's always some movement going 0:58:25.040 --> 0:58:30.120 on in there. Really, there's not a single video of 0:58:30.200 --> 0:58:34.520 an animal not reacting at all. Now, only times I've 0:58:34.600 --> 0:58:38.360 ever seen animals not react at all to the shot 0:58:39.400 --> 0:58:42.160 was on a very long range shot. That's all been 0:58:42.240 --> 0:58:46.960 small game varmint shooting, varmint calling that kind of stuff, 0:58:47.840 --> 0:58:51.600 uh where they might not hear, but we were going 0:58:51.680 --> 0:58:53.840 to do more. I've done a little bit of research 0:58:54.440 --> 0:58:58.160 looking at air noise, and you can quiet down an 0:58:58.160 --> 0:59:03.360 air a lot by different types of fletching. And we've 0:59:03.400 --> 0:59:05.240 worked out of fletching that we call an A and 0:59:05.320 --> 0:59:09.520 a fleshing very small triangular shape. It will only work 0:59:09.600 --> 0:59:12.880 with very high foc aras the higher you've got the 0:59:13.000 --> 0:59:16.520 foc you now have a long rear steering arm on 0:59:16.600 --> 0:59:21.800 the air, so it does not take much fletching to 0:59:22.000 --> 0:59:24.840 overcome the wind share of the broad head. It's way 0:59:24.880 --> 0:59:28.240 you bear shaft tuned. If it shoots perfectly, bear shafted, 0:59:28.960 --> 0:59:31.760 and then you put your broad head on there. The 0:59:31.880 --> 0:59:34.360 only fletching you need is enough to overcome the wind 0:59:34.400 --> 0:59:39.000 share under all wind conditions. So I tune that fleshing 0:59:39.120 --> 0:59:41.800 just like I would anything else that I put the 0:59:41.840 --> 0:59:44.120 broad head that this era is going to be used with, 0:59:44.840 --> 0:59:47.360 and then I see how small I can go in 0:59:47.480 --> 0:59:50.880 that fletching before I get unstable flight, and I go 0:59:51.040 --> 0:59:54.280 back up slightly. We actually use the thing called a turbulator, 0:59:54.680 --> 0:59:57.280 which is a little pin stripe thing that goes around 0:59:57.880 --> 1:00:00.960 in front of the feathers out a quarter of an inch. 1:00:01.360 --> 1:00:04.080 Feathers do work better than veins because they've they've got 1:00:04.280 --> 1:00:08.400 higher drag and they're lighter. Gives us higher foc The 1:00:08.520 --> 1:00:12.400 turbulator disrupts the laminar flow down the air shaft, which 1:00:12.480 --> 1:00:15.600 creates increased pressure, just like wood on an airplane. They 1:00:15.720 --> 1:00:19.480 use turbulators on airplanes too, uh, which will increase the 1:00:19.520 --> 1:00:23.840 pressure on the small reflection and that has a much 1:00:23.920 --> 1:00:27.760 lower sound effect. So we're gonna do a lot more 1:00:27.840 --> 1:00:30.040 research for that. That's coming up. Because you think they're 1:00:30.080 --> 1:00:32.080 responding to the sound of the approaching arrow or through 1:00:33.800 --> 1:00:36.360 to take a big fletch and shoot it a rabbit 1:00:36.440 --> 1:00:39.480 at about eighty yards, watching perk up and move where 1:00:39.480 --> 1:00:46.520 the arrogance there? Oh, here's it coming. Yeah, So you 1:00:47.200 --> 1:00:52.120 don't sound too dissimilar from a that's true and very 1:00:52.160 --> 1:00:55.720 similar yep, and and so big fleshing it. Now. When 1:00:55.800 --> 1:00:59.680 I first started hunting and it started into this research, 1:00:59.760 --> 1:01:02.520 he I had to use really large feathers because I 1:01:02.720 --> 1:01:06.440 realized that at close range I had to get my 1:01:06.560 --> 1:01:10.560 air out of paradox to get the penetration up. Because 1:01:10.600 --> 1:01:14.600 I could shoot animals at yards a lot more penetration 1:01:15.040 --> 1:01:16.680 that if I shot him in seven or eight yards, 1:01:18.480 --> 1:01:22.320 that's the paradox. The era is flexing, So you have 1:01:22.600 --> 1:01:25.480 archer's paradox, and let me give it a shot and 1:01:25.520 --> 1:01:29.160 then you can correct me. But basically as that your 1:01:29.240 --> 1:01:33.200 bowstring starts to push your arrow. The arrow doesn't immediately 1:01:33.240 --> 1:01:37.200 start moving at first flexus. Your arrow does this as 1:01:37.240 --> 1:01:39.200 it's coming out of your boat, like it bends in 1:01:39.280 --> 1:01:44.080 the sideways, um, you know, a half moon arc arc, 1:01:44.520 --> 1:01:47.360 and then as it leaves it does that the other direction, 1:01:47.560 --> 1:01:50.800 and then the other direction, and eventually it straightens out 1:01:51.120 --> 1:01:54.160 and then flies completely straight. But the paradox is that 1:01:54.360 --> 1:01:58.640 it's not that you think the closer it is the better. Well, 1:01:58.720 --> 1:02:02.040 the original paradox so weren't center shot bows, was that 1:02:02.280 --> 1:02:04.600 in order to hit the target, it has to bend 1:02:04.680 --> 1:02:06.800 around the boat. It has to not be pointed at 1:02:06.840 --> 1:02:08.960 the target. But that's not a paradox, well it is. 1:02:09.040 --> 1:02:11.640 It's paradox that you don't point at it to be 1:02:11.720 --> 1:02:14.120 able to hit it. Ah, there's the paradise. I was 1:02:14.120 --> 1:02:15.919 trying to figure out where the paradox is. I thought 1:02:15.920 --> 1:02:19.680 the paradox was you think really close is better. No, no, no, 1:02:19.840 --> 1:02:23.800 it's actually the fact that on an tradtional bow that 1:02:24.520 --> 1:02:25.880 you know, and in some of the boats I used, 1:02:25.920 --> 1:02:28.600 have no self for that reason, let me use lighter 1:02:28.640 --> 1:02:30.600 air shafts. When I was trying to get it high officially, 1:02:31.080 --> 1:02:33.439 and the arrows pointed off like this to shoot out there, 1:02:33.680 --> 1:02:36.600 I guess the rifleman's paradox would be that if you're 1:02:36.600 --> 1:02:39.880 shooting at something at point blank range, you'd have to 1:02:40.360 --> 1:02:42.480 account for the fact that you're cross there is an 1:02:42.480 --> 1:02:47.040 inch and a half higher than you're essentially and a 1:02:47.080 --> 1:02:49.040 half that's right. You'd have the line of sight and 1:02:49.080 --> 1:02:51.600 the board access and somewhere out there they're gonna cross, 1:02:51.600 --> 1:02:54.480 and they're gonna cross again. I'm gonna douve the rifleman's 1:02:54.480 --> 1:02:59.840 paradox trademarking because a lot of people don't know are 1:03:00.000 --> 1:03:03.280 there's paradox. We also call it shot flex. Yeah, and 1:03:03.400 --> 1:03:09.680 you get it again on impact. Now it's hit, the 1:03:09.800 --> 1:03:12.280 front of the air has slowed down and the back 1:03:12.360 --> 1:03:14.920 of the air is still trying to push it forward. Now, 1:03:15.120 --> 1:03:17.040 one of the things we found with the higher fo 1:03:17.160 --> 1:03:20.000 cs is that they come out of paradox and you 1:03:20.040 --> 1:03:23.840 shoot it much faster. Because it's lighter at the back end, 1:03:24.600 --> 1:03:27.000 and when you hit the animal, most of the weight 1:03:27.120 --> 1:03:29.840 is up front. You've got a very stiff forward leaver 1:03:30.120 --> 1:03:32.919 arm and the back of the shaft is very light. 1:03:33.800 --> 1:03:36.040 And because it's very light, it doesn't push his hard, 1:03:36.280 --> 1:03:39.920 it doesn't flex as much, and it stops flexing much faster. 1:03:40.600 --> 1:03:43.880 So that helps you get increased penetration because when that's 1:03:43.920 --> 1:03:46.400 flexing going through the wound channel, just having to push 1:03:46.480 --> 1:03:49.640 tissue every time it bends and goes through a bone. 1:03:49.720 --> 1:03:52.360 Same thing he's trying to push against that moan and 1:03:52.480 --> 1:03:54.680 that slows it down. Now, there's a couple of things 1:03:54.720 --> 1:03:57.120 you can do to see that really easy. Uh. You 1:03:57.200 --> 1:04:00.600 can take a dowe rod long your four or five 1:04:00.640 --> 1:04:03.600 ft drill. You a hole on the board and put 1:04:03.640 --> 1:04:07.240 it in there and get a rubber ball. Put the 1:04:07.320 --> 1:04:09.000 rubber ball away at the back end and pull it 1:04:09.040 --> 1:04:10.920 over the side and watch it go. There's like a metronome. 1:04:12.040 --> 1:04:15.480 Takes forever to stop. Move it down about halfway, which 1:04:15.560 --> 1:04:18.640 you're a little more than halfway like most eras are. No, 1:04:18.880 --> 1:04:20.920 you can go a long time. Put it right down 1:04:20.920 --> 1:04:26.040 against the board and stops. The same thing happens with 1:04:26.120 --> 1:04:29.520 an era. Now you can do that with ashual eras 1:04:29.600 --> 1:04:32.120 by drilling up pretty good sized holes, say five eighths 1:04:32.160 --> 1:04:34.800 of an inch or something, and take two errors, one 1:04:34.880 --> 1:04:37.240 with a normal foc, one with a high effles, very 1:04:37.280 --> 1:04:40.760 high effles. Put it in there so there is identical 1:04:40.840 --> 1:04:43.880 except for the foc, same chef, size, everything about it. 1:04:44.560 --> 1:04:46.479 Pull it over to the side and turn it loose. 1:04:46.840 --> 1:04:51.360 Time it with a stopwatch to drop through the hole. 1:04:51.840 --> 1:04:53.880 Now take the high foc when it goes take a 1:04:53.920 --> 1:04:57.440 take a tu m hm. Same things happen when it 1:04:57.440 --> 1:04:59.959 goes to the bone or a hole in the bone. 1:05:00.000 --> 1:05:04.040 Once you've placed to hold through there, they're very easy 1:05:04.120 --> 1:05:07.480 to see. You guys even use a Doppler radar when 1:05:07.480 --> 1:05:10.440 you're doing research. Yes, yes, we we have. Well, Daryl's 1:05:10.480 --> 1:05:12.480 got one, so now we've got three. The foundation is 1:05:12.480 --> 1:05:16.040 about too, and we've got a high speed camera on 1:05:16.120 --> 1:05:17.760 the way. You might be here by now where I'll 1:05:17.800 --> 1:05:20.480 just home. We'll find out where we can u a 1:05:20.600 --> 1:05:24.240 genuine high speed camera, not a regular camera that's you know, 1:05:24.360 --> 1:05:28.160 shooting three or four hundred frames whatever, This is three 1:05:28.240 --> 1:05:30.800 thousand frames a second. Well, how does the how does 1:05:30.880 --> 1:05:34.200 the what do you do with the Doppler radar. Uh. 1:05:34.320 --> 1:05:37.120 It works like any other chronograph, but it will read 1:05:37.800 --> 1:05:40.160 the ERA at at whatever range does you want to 1:05:40.200 --> 1:05:43.080 set it for. So this reading is goes out so 1:05:43.240 --> 1:05:45.400 you can shoot one ara by it and you can 1:05:45.440 --> 1:05:47.960 read the launch velocity. You can read it at five 1:05:48.080 --> 1:05:51.840 yards ten yards fifty out to where it will no 1:05:51.920 --> 1:05:54.880 longer pick it up. Well, it'll pick these Doppler radar 1:05:55.040 --> 1:05:58.240 like that. We'll pick up a thirty caliber rifle bullet 1:05:58.720 --> 1:06:01.680 out to about seven yard words, so let'll take up 1:06:01.720 --> 1:06:05.080 an ERA a long way out there. And we've just 1:06:05.200 --> 1:06:08.760 started started doing some testing with those. Are you able 1:06:08.800 --> 1:06:10.720 to test it coming in and going out with something? 1:06:10.960 --> 1:06:12.880 That's why we're trying to work out a system to 1:06:12.920 --> 1:06:15.200 do That's one of you've got multiple level because you're 1:06:15.200 --> 1:06:17.600 gonna have to have one to read it going in 1:06:18.880 --> 1:06:22.880 and one to read it coming out because the animals 1:06:22.880 --> 1:06:25.080 going to be in the way. So we're trying to 1:06:25.160 --> 1:06:28.880 work out a system to do that. Uh. So Darryl 1:06:28.920 --> 1:06:30.640 and Troy are working on that now, trying to come 1:06:30.760 --> 1:06:36.040 up with a methodology and uh having Darryl with us, 1:06:36.040 --> 1:06:39.120 who's a true I mean calling the rocket man, he's 1:06:39.120 --> 1:06:42.600 true rocket scientists work for the government. All these worked 1:06:42.640 --> 1:06:47.920 on rail guns and uh uh tank penetrating projectiles and 1:06:48.880 --> 1:06:51.760 uh cruise missiles and all this kind of stuff that 1:06:52.520 --> 1:06:55.360 you know for years. So he's very much into both 1:06:55.480 --> 1:07:00.160 terminal ballistics, but more so probably into flight ballistics. Are 1:07:00.160 --> 1:07:04.600 you gonna hit us with the twelve factors? Oh? I was, yeah, 1:07:06.040 --> 1:07:09.800 I will, Okay. The very first one to the first 1:07:09.840 --> 1:07:13.640 four are are really ones about the only ones I 1:07:13.760 --> 1:07:16.080 remember on the top of my head. The structural integrity 1:07:16.120 --> 1:07:18.920 was talked about, which is an absolutely must have. That's 1:07:18.920 --> 1:07:22.640 gonna always be number one. The second one is going 1:07:22.720 --> 1:07:25.960 to be the air of flight. I talked about perfect 1:07:26.000 --> 1:07:28.280 air of flight. You're going to have to have that. 1:07:29.400 --> 1:07:36.080 The next most important overall is the extreme foc that's 1:07:36.280 --> 1:07:39.400 percentage wise going to give you the biggest gain in 1:07:39.440 --> 1:07:47.360 penetration through soft tissues, postmone breaching, so forth. The next 1:07:47.400 --> 1:07:51.320 one is the mechanical advantage of the Broadhead. Now Broadhead 1:07:51.400 --> 1:07:55.800 has it's inclined planes. It's a series of inclined planes 1:07:56.880 --> 1:07:59.800 on most Broadhead song got some other weird stuff stuck on. 1:08:00.960 --> 1:08:04.360 But the longer and narrower it is, the higher the 1:08:04.440 --> 1:08:08.560 mechanical advantage is. And you can think of it like 1:08:08.720 --> 1:08:12.880 wheelchair ramps. Wheelchair ramps are low and gradual because it's 1:08:12.880 --> 1:08:15.440 easier to move a load from here to there. It 1:08:15.480 --> 1:08:18.800 will do more work with the same applied force. That's 1:08:18.840 --> 1:08:22.000 what mechanical advantage is. So if we get a broad 1:08:22.080 --> 1:08:24.640 head that is a true three to one mechanical advantage, 1:08:25.160 --> 1:08:28.000 it will take the force of the era and multiplied 1:08:28.080 --> 1:08:32.599 by factor of three, and if it's two to one, 1:08:33.360 --> 1:08:36.639 you're multiplying it by a factor of two. A lot 1:08:36.720 --> 1:08:40.880 of broadheads are way down there, bow one on some 1:08:41.080 --> 1:08:46.160 of them, so you're actually losing force from the mechanical 1:08:46.200 --> 1:08:49.240 advantage of the broadhead. What's the shittiest broadhead being sold 1:08:49.280 --> 1:08:56.439 out there? Most mechanicals, most mechanical, most mechanicals, Yeah, because 1:08:56.479 --> 1:09:00.240 those things got some If I had my druthers, I 1:09:00.400 --> 1:09:02.240 just just going by what you're saying. They have a 1:09:02.400 --> 1:09:05.040 very low with their deploy that a very low mechanics 1:09:05.160 --> 1:09:08.439 and also the force of deployment. And we also have 1:09:09.240 --> 1:09:11.320 gauges that were now starting to use that, and we 1:09:11.439 --> 1:09:14.160 use it in some of our demonstrations of letting people 1:09:14.200 --> 1:09:18.200 take their own broadheads and and bring a hide and 1:09:18.680 --> 1:09:21.360 let them push it through there. And we've actually got 1:09:21.439 --> 1:09:23.479 a gauge you can put on there and you can 1:09:23.600 --> 1:09:26.599 see the force required to push it through the hide. 1:09:26.880 --> 1:09:31.040 There's a thing called a trap pan trap Pantenson gauge. 1:09:31.760 --> 1:09:34.280 This essentially it's pressed down and measure your pay attention 1:09:36.120 --> 1:09:40.320 and it's it's really uh graphic because we have had 1:09:40.400 --> 1:09:44.920 people with heads that with all the force they could use, 1:09:45.000 --> 1:09:49.120 could not push them through the hide, and then they 1:09:49.200 --> 1:09:53.560 take a good cut on contact a chisel tip, I 1:09:53.640 --> 1:09:56.479 guess is is what's Yeah, A lot of the chisel 1:09:56.520 --> 1:09:59.800 tips are tough like that are the calm tips Okay, 1:10:00.560 --> 1:10:03.439 hard to push through, very hard to push through. Uh, 1:10:03.760 --> 1:10:05.559 And a lot of the mechanicals very hard to push through. 1:10:05.640 --> 1:10:07.519 Got very that blind angle even when you get the 1:10:07.600 --> 1:10:11.280 front part through trying to get him to deploy and 1:10:11.320 --> 1:10:13.639 then trying to get them through there, and it takes 1:10:13.680 --> 1:10:16.519 almost no force. With a good high mechanical advantage cut 1:10:16.600 --> 1:10:20.840 on contact broadhead is sharp. You just push through one finger, 1:10:20.880 --> 1:10:25.240 it's no problem. And all of that force that you 1:10:25.479 --> 1:10:29.040 say there of the era is forced you can apply 1:10:29.120 --> 1:10:33.040 to more penetration. So you want to get through all 1:10:33.080 --> 1:10:35.519 the tissues with the leash resistance you can which is 1:10:35.600 --> 1:10:38.240 basically what we do with all the factors. We're looking 1:10:38.360 --> 1:10:43.400 to maximize the force that the air carries with withever 1:10:43.520 --> 1:10:45.320 factors in there. I want to get back to that list, 1:10:45.360 --> 1:10:48.120 but I just have but I have one to go ahead, 1:10:48.160 --> 1:10:49.720 Go ahead, you've gotten a bunch of ince. I think 1:10:49.760 --> 1:10:53.080 you can let me have one, because can you tell 1:10:53.200 --> 1:10:55.640 the story about or because you talk about penetration, some 1:10:55.720 --> 1:10:58.040 people are gonna say, well, at what point is it 1:10:58.120 --> 1:11:00.719 too much? Because if I go through you both sides, 1:11:01.200 --> 1:11:03.680 that's enough. But I read something where you were saying that, no, 1:11:04.040 --> 1:11:07.000 it's definitely better because of what the was it the 1:11:07.160 --> 1:11:12.160 Royal Academy of veter Science. Yeah, and in Great Britain. Uh, 1:11:12.240 --> 1:11:14.559 they actually did some research for what reason, I don't 1:11:14.560 --> 1:11:17.760 know own errors. I never did figure that out. But 1:11:18.960 --> 1:11:25.840 if the shaft remains in, it impedes the hemorrhaging. If 1:11:26.160 --> 1:11:29.320 it stays in and the animal is moving, it impedes 1:11:29.680 --> 1:11:34.559 even more the hemorrhaging. But if it goes completely through, 1:11:35.760 --> 1:11:38.920 the shaft is out and the hemorrhaging is freer. And 1:11:39.040 --> 1:11:41.679 one of the one of the things try for yourself. 1:11:42.840 --> 1:11:47.360 Get your zip block bag gallon size three quarters full 1:11:47.439 --> 1:11:52.560 of water, get you some barbecue skewers going, stick the 1:11:52.600 --> 1:11:57.600 skewers through. Look at the leak that's coming out. You know, 1:11:57.720 --> 1:12:00.680 start first, just stick on one side, stick it on 1:12:00.800 --> 1:12:03.800 one side, then push them all the way through, both 1:12:03.840 --> 1:12:05.720 sides still in there. Now pull the two out and 1:12:05.760 --> 1:12:10.160 watch what happens. This is essentially what happened if you 1:12:10.280 --> 1:12:16.120 go talk to any emergency room that hershing or leaking both. Yeah, 1:12:16.120 --> 1:12:18.840 because like for blood trailing, Yeah, for blood trailing, I 1:12:18.880 --> 1:12:21.280 can see it's having Yeah, we notice it like it's 1:12:21.560 --> 1:12:24.120 like it could still be bleeding internally. It's not doing 1:12:24.160 --> 1:12:27.160 you any good on the ground. Don't having the projectile 1:12:27.240 --> 1:12:34.200 in there impedes bleeding any just responders, emergency room physician. 1:12:34.400 --> 1:12:36.960 If you have an embedded object, the first thing they're 1:12:36.960 --> 1:12:39.920 gonna tell you do is not removed. It should not 1:12:40.080 --> 1:12:43.320 really removed until you have that patient in a setting 1:12:43.720 --> 1:12:47.160 where you can control the increased hemorrhay gene that's going 1:12:47.240 --> 1:12:50.040 to occur when you remove that. And that's exactly what 1:12:50.160 --> 1:12:52.439 it'll say. You didn't look that one up on internet. 1:12:52.520 --> 1:12:59.720 That's easy to find, yeah, even internet. Yeah, yeah, Plus 1:12:59.800 --> 1:13:02.000 you you know, if the error is gone completely through, 1:13:02.680 --> 1:13:07.080 it's now you have sucking, chest wound, collapse lungs. What 1:13:07.200 --> 1:13:08.960 do you do when you've got somebody that does have 1:13:09.080 --> 1:13:11.800 a penetrate shop with a bullet, what do you do? 1:13:12.080 --> 1:13:14.720 You put a seal over there. You don't want to 1:13:14.760 --> 1:13:16.840 collapse that lung. They've got to have that seal to 1:13:16.880 --> 1:13:21.080 be able to breathe. So that's not what we will. 1:13:21.120 --> 1:13:23.160 We want him to die. We're not trying to keep 1:13:23.240 --> 1:13:29.400 him alive. So you want that error to exit completely. 1:13:30.840 --> 1:13:33.720 And if they people talk about airror staying in and 1:13:34.000 --> 1:13:37.439 moving around and causing all these lacerations and stuff, if 1:13:37.479 --> 1:13:39.120 it goes for enough stick on the other side, it's 1:13:39.120 --> 1:13:42.240 not gonna move around much. But even if it's in there, 1:13:42.320 --> 1:13:45.120 if they will dissect that animal, you don't see a 1:13:45.200 --> 1:13:49.559 lot of that laceration. It doesn't happen. The tissues hold 1:13:49.640 --> 1:13:53.759 it firm enough. And why we're talking about very mobile tissues. 1:13:54.040 --> 1:13:57.680 Lungs are very mobile, much like intestines and stuff. You 1:13:57.760 --> 1:14:00.920 know they'll move because I think that's something if you 1:14:01.080 --> 1:14:03.280 look at people have sort of accepted that, Yeah, if 1:14:03.280 --> 1:14:05.200 you're broad as this at least in there and the 1:14:05.240 --> 1:14:08.479 animals running around, it's moving and cutting and it's good 1:14:10.280 --> 1:14:13.240 it is not there. If you dissect animals, you don't 1:14:13.280 --> 1:14:17.000 do don't see this massive laceration. It's like in our 1:14:17.080 --> 1:14:19.360 head we think it's doing that. Oh yeah, you see 1:14:19.400 --> 1:14:23.840 the man that's gotta be cutting. Well he's moving too, 1:14:24.040 --> 1:14:25.880 but the tissue is holding it and so it's just 1:14:26.000 --> 1:14:31.439 going this, just staying straight, not cutting. So it's just 1:14:31.560 --> 1:14:34.519 not there. That's why I wish I could get people 1:14:34.640 --> 1:14:38.120 to to dissect animals and look at it, and they 1:14:38.120 --> 1:14:41.280 would start to learn some of this stuff. But most 1:14:41.320 --> 1:14:42.920 people don't do it and got the animal and get 1:14:42.960 --> 1:14:46.400 out of here, you know, and they very rarely looked at. 1:14:46.439 --> 1:14:48.880 Gun Hunters need to do that too, get an idea 1:14:48.920 --> 1:14:51.040 how their bullets performed with a lot of crappy bullets 1:14:51.080 --> 1:14:53.040 on the market too. I did a lot of terminal 1:14:53.400 --> 1:14:57.240 ballistic research for Barnes bullets too, so I got quite 1:14:57.240 --> 1:15:03.080 a background and in doing terminal bullists. Uh but any him, 1:15:03.520 --> 1:15:13.720 we're on our list. Well okay, uh, well we're all 1:15:13.800 --> 1:15:17.320 mechanical advantage. But one of the things that people don't 1:15:17.360 --> 1:15:21.640 look at also is it's your edge. Bevel has a 1:15:21.680 --> 1:15:25.160 mechanical advantage. This is also an incline plane. If you've 1:15:25.200 --> 1:15:29.000 got a double bevel. It's like that the most commons 1:15:29.040 --> 1:15:31.000 back up a little bit because I think already we've 1:15:31.000 --> 1:15:35.560 probably maybe lost some listeners just to explain, like the 1:15:35.680 --> 1:15:38.960 bevel and this angle, and and just like back it 1:15:39.040 --> 1:15:42.200 up to just one oh one. So we were dude 1:15:42.280 --> 1:15:46.720 off of knife blades and razor blades. Basically, most most 1:15:46.800 --> 1:15:50.240 double bevel broadheads how much like a knife blade. Most 1:15:50.320 --> 1:15:52.320 common angle is the same on both of them's twenty 1:15:52.360 --> 1:15:57.280 five degrees on each side. You now have a fifty 1:15:57.360 --> 1:16:01.400 degree cutting angle. When you get to a single bevel, 1:16:02.000 --> 1:16:04.599 one side is flat, you've got a bevel on the other. 1:16:05.200 --> 1:16:07.439 Now we've got some out there with twenty degrees. Now 1:16:07.560 --> 1:16:10.280 we're we're testing some of those in Africa right now 1:16:10.400 --> 1:16:13.479 to see if that'll hold up at twenty Now. I 1:16:13.640 --> 1:16:18.479 worked originally the gritties. I god had about thirty five 1:16:18.600 --> 1:16:22.320 degree I think, and I worked from different bevels, working 1:16:22.360 --> 1:16:24.760 them down, and the lowest I can get to is 1:16:24.840 --> 1:16:28.080 twenty five. Below twenty five the steel wasn't strong enough. 1:16:28.080 --> 1:16:30.280 It starts to roll the edge, So that was as 1:16:30.320 --> 1:16:34.280 slow as low as you get. But those when you 1:16:34.360 --> 1:16:37.360 get to twenty five degree bevel, you've got to see 1:16:37.479 --> 1:16:40.920 row in twenty five. It is now twice as thin 1:16:41.200 --> 1:16:45.599 as a double bevel broadhead. It's mechanical advantage is twice 1:16:45.640 --> 1:16:49.679 as high. Now what does that mean for you? Okay, 1:16:49.720 --> 1:16:52.920 a blood vessel is touching it with the same amount 1:16:52.920 --> 1:16:56.400 of pressure between the two edges. The single bevel, it's 1:16:56.439 --> 1:17:00.320 going to slice twice as deep or twice as easily, 1:17:00.800 --> 1:17:03.840 whichever you want to look at it as that double bevel. 1:17:04.560 --> 1:17:08.720 Because it has a higher mechanical advantage. It does more 1:17:08.840 --> 1:17:12.920 work with the same applied pressure. By definition, that's what 1:17:13.040 --> 1:17:17.640 mechanically managed does. But you have to have steel of 1:17:17.760 --> 1:17:21.120 a good enough quality for that edge to hold up. 1:17:22.160 --> 1:17:26.680 That's why a real premium single bevel head. You know, 1:17:26.720 --> 1:17:30.880 our hundred plus dollars for three heads, but as you 1:17:30.920 --> 1:17:32.760 can at least reuse them. Look at the price of 1:17:32.960 --> 1:17:36.679 UH five N express rifle cartridge. Now have four dollars 1:17:36.720 --> 1:17:41.519 a box of twenty. You know, the broadhead is going 1:17:41.600 --> 1:17:43.880 to be one of the least expensive things of your hunt. 1:17:44.479 --> 1:17:48.599 So it's old ara set up, you know, and white 1:17:48.640 --> 1:17:52.080 people scrimp on the one thing that's going to come 1:17:52.120 --> 1:17:55.680 in contact with the animal. I have never understood, but 1:17:55.880 --> 1:18:00.040 they do it. But Basically, that's where mechanical advance and 1:18:00.080 --> 1:18:02.200 it's just come in. I hope that's clear enough you 1:18:02.400 --> 1:18:07.280 understand it. The people, most people really overlook the mechanical 1:18:07.280 --> 1:18:10.439 advantage of the edge bettle. It's a big one. And 1:18:10.600 --> 1:18:13.120 another thing is that we've talked about why I would 1:18:13.200 --> 1:18:15.479 guess that right now, if we looked at just picked 1:18:15.680 --> 1:18:20.280 a random ten arrowheads on the Internet, that the edge 1:18:20.320 --> 1:18:23.360 bevel the angle might not even be listed under the 1:18:23.400 --> 1:18:25.840 specific most of the times not It's probably not even 1:18:25.880 --> 1:18:28.519 a thing that people even think about. But that's something 1:18:28.600 --> 1:18:31.040 we tracked, and in the study, we tracked the edge 1:18:31.080 --> 1:18:34.120 babble of every if it's got six blades, we're gonna 1:18:34.160 --> 1:18:36.280 have the edge battle of all six blades listed there. 1:18:37.240 --> 1:18:39.920 You know, if it's got bleeder blades, four blade blader blades, 1:18:40.000 --> 1:18:43.320 sometimes they have different angles ground on them. So we've 1:18:43.360 --> 1:18:46.240 got that all track. And that's one of the factors 1:18:46.280 --> 1:18:48.680 you can look at. It's a's what difference does it make? 1:18:49.840 --> 1:18:51.439 And the one thing that we found when we were 1:18:51.439 --> 1:18:56.200 looking at single babble versus double bebble in absolute identical 1:18:56.640 --> 1:19:01.560 profile broadheads on the same error that up is that 1:19:01.840 --> 1:19:05.280 the single bevels will give you more penetration both in 1:19:05.360 --> 1:19:10.519 soft tissue and drastically so in bone. Huge difference in 1:19:10.600 --> 1:19:13.920 bone because the rotating single bevel will pop the bone. 1:19:14.920 --> 1:19:17.840 I think that we should, uh, you should explain the 1:19:18.080 --> 1:19:24.519 how a single bevel uh like makes itself when it 1:19:24.600 --> 1:19:26.439 hits an animal and bones when it when it's flat 1:19:26.520 --> 1:19:30.040 on one side. Okay, well we'll put the bevel over here. 1:19:30.800 --> 1:19:33.080 If it's flat on one side and beveled on the other, 1:19:33.840 --> 1:19:37.080 when you apply pressure to this side as it goes 1:19:37.200 --> 1:19:40.960 through something, there's no pressure on this side, and it 1:19:41.080 --> 1:19:46.840 castes the rotation. There you go. He's got a big 1:19:46.880 --> 1:19:49.320 old plastic broadhead, but he's got a left bevel. That's 1:19:49.360 --> 1:19:54.280 all right. Uh, it's going to press here but not here. 1:19:54.800 --> 1:19:58.880 And it's going to press here but not here. When 1:19:58.920 --> 1:20:02.160 he says press here, he's pointing at the bevel of 1:20:02.360 --> 1:20:06.920 the broadhead, not the flat edge. Yes, the torque generated 1:20:07.600 --> 1:20:09.960 is going to be proportional to the amount if you 1:20:10.040 --> 1:20:13.400 go talking about a bone, the amount of surface area 1:20:14.320 --> 1:20:16.519 of the bevel in contact with the bone or any 1:20:16.560 --> 1:20:20.240 given time. Now, there's also going to be a differential 1:20:20.920 --> 1:20:23.920 by how wide the broadhead is. When you get a 1:20:24.040 --> 1:20:27.680 very wide broadhead. You're putting a lot more stress on 1:20:27.760 --> 1:20:30.760 the edge at any given bevel angle because you've got 1:20:30.800 --> 1:20:34.200 a longer leaver arm coming out here torking. So it's 1:20:34.200 --> 1:20:38.880 going to be more likely to roll that edge or 1:20:39.000 --> 1:20:40.960 chipped the hedge or whatever it's going to do. Now, 1:20:41.040 --> 1:20:42.640 if it's got to do one or the other, you 1:20:42.720 --> 1:20:47.040 want to chip rather than roll. A chipped steel blade 1:20:47.520 --> 1:20:51.240 is a whole lot sharper than a rolled edge rolled edge, 1:20:51.280 --> 1:20:53.560 and you can saw your hand with it. It's not 1:20:53.640 --> 1:20:58.320 gonna cut anything, but that's where you get the torking effect. 1:21:00.040 --> 1:21:02.960 When you have a double bevel, you got even pressure 1:21:03.000 --> 1:21:05.960 on both sides. When they hit a bone, it has 1:21:06.040 --> 1:21:09.479 to push its waist straight through. Now, with a high 1:21:09.520 --> 1:21:13.160 speed camera, we're gonna find out just how far it 1:21:13.280 --> 1:21:16.639 goes into the bone before it pops it with that torque. 1:21:18.040 --> 1:21:22.200 M hmm. Yeah, I think it's happening very quickly. I 1:21:22.280 --> 1:21:24.599 don't know that, but we're going to find out. Can 1:21:24.600 --> 1:21:27.360 I tell you something. I was reading the thing one 1:21:27.400 --> 1:21:29.160 time where a guy was just you holding that thing, 1:21:29.560 --> 1:21:31.960 the single bevel, talking about that. I was reading a 1:21:32.000 --> 1:21:35.360 thing where a guy was writing a paper on what 1:21:35.600 --> 1:21:40.280 he believed the prevalency of left handedness was among Folsome hunters, 1:21:41.240 --> 1:21:45.679 based on resharpened Falsome point that they assumed we're hafted, 1:21:47.160 --> 1:21:50.720 and that he was working with his left holding the 1:21:50.800 --> 1:21:52.519 half of his right hand and working with the left, 1:21:52.560 --> 1:21:54.040 and I think they found that they were had a 1:21:54.120 --> 1:21:56.840 higher prevalency of I think this guy suggests I had 1:21:56.880 --> 1:22:01.000 a higher prevalency of left handedness at least a months 1:22:01.040 --> 1:22:08.120 on the hunters believe people. It's interesting anyway, that gives 1:22:08.120 --> 1:22:09.560 you a good idea what we're talking about with the 1:22:09.600 --> 1:22:14.720 torqu generator. What number one right now? Uh, we're still 1:22:14.840 --> 1:22:18.400 number four mechanical advantage. Oh you got all that rolled 1:22:18.479 --> 1:22:22.719 under mechanical advantage. That's like ABC. Well it's not necessarily 1:22:22.800 --> 1:22:25.840 with the torque that would come down generaly further where 1:22:25.840 --> 1:22:29.719 we talked about the type of edge babbove But okay, five, 1:22:30.160 --> 1:22:35.519 it's the shaft diameter to feral diameter ratio right there, 1:22:36.120 --> 1:22:41.200 because chaft goes into the broadhead. If it's like this, smaller, 1:22:42.120 --> 1:22:46.960 you gain about ten penetration as opposed to be even 1:22:47.760 --> 1:22:53.240 if the shaft is bigger, you lose penetration. What he's 1:22:53.240 --> 1:22:58.760 sawing about about is the the drag. Yeah, like if 1:22:58.800 --> 1:23:01.160 you run your hand from a aft downe of the broadhad, 1:23:02.160 --> 1:23:05.160 you definitely don't want it to drop off at the broadhead. 1:23:05.240 --> 1:23:07.559 Well that's further down the list too, But yes, broadhead 1:23:07.600 --> 1:23:13.320 profile error profile is important. But that's the important one 1:23:13.400 --> 1:23:15.920 to have right there, and we're going to do more 1:23:15.960 --> 1:23:18.360 research on. But in what the data we have now, 1:23:19.240 --> 1:23:24.360 it doesn't seem to increase very much in penetration once 1:23:24.439 --> 1:23:29.560 you're about five smaller than the broadhead feral hm. But 1:23:29.840 --> 1:23:32.080 we've got a lot more skinny shafts to work with now, 1:23:32.960 --> 1:23:35.320 so we may code with something new as we do 1:23:35.479 --> 1:23:39.240 the newer testing and and find out that okay, going down, 1:23:39.280 --> 1:23:42.160 the more you might gain some more penetration. And why 1:23:42.640 --> 1:23:45.200 why I'm guessing is just that the broadhead has created 1:23:45.240 --> 1:23:48.680 a bigger channel than the arrow needs to go just 1:23:49.200 --> 1:23:54.160 pure drag. If if you look at this coming down 1:23:54.960 --> 1:23:58.320 and having to bump up over an errow shaft, now 1:23:58.479 --> 1:24:03.000 it's going to have more pressure against this tissue and 1:24:04.520 --> 1:24:07.440 shaft profiles on there too. As we look at shaft profiles. 1:24:07.920 --> 1:24:12.920 If you have a barrel taper shaft, then you can 1:24:13.000 --> 1:24:15.960 go and buy a barrel tapertechularly in wood ares and 1:24:16.000 --> 1:24:18.519 traditional areas. Yes, they're very common and being used for 1:24:18.600 --> 1:24:23.120 centuries and for various things. But it'll it'll be on 1:24:23.200 --> 1:24:26.040 one diameter here then gets bigger towards the metal than 1:24:26.160 --> 1:24:29.800 tapers at the back. Those will have the lowest penetration. 1:24:30.560 --> 1:24:33.759 If you took identical eras for everything's up the shaft profile, 1:24:34.080 --> 1:24:37.519 same weight, same broad head, shopping the same bowl, shoot 1:24:37.680 --> 1:24:40.959 each one fifty times and and look at the averages, 1:24:41.800 --> 1:24:45.520 You're you're going to lose u significant amount of penetration. 1:24:46.320 --> 1:24:51.719 The highest penetrating is the taper shaft. The taper shaft, 1:24:52.360 --> 1:24:54.920 the further it gets in in the drag of the 1:24:54.960 --> 1:24:58.519 shaft drops. Now you have to remember too when it's 1:24:58.560 --> 1:25:01.639 why you can't. I haven't been able to find artificial 1:25:01.800 --> 1:25:07.160 mediums that worked well because you're shooting that era through 1:25:07.320 --> 1:25:10.839 a blood in an animal, through a blood suffused environment, 1:25:11.439 --> 1:25:13.560 which lubricates you. You know how slick blood is, you 1:25:13.640 --> 1:25:15.920 had blood on your hands, Try to hold your knife 1:25:15.960 --> 1:25:19.680 handle when you're gutting an animal, and it actually has 1:25:19.680 --> 1:25:23.679 a lubricating effect, which is another reason we do our testing. 1:25:23.960 --> 1:25:26.439 Within thirty minutes of putting the animal down. Not only 1:25:26.560 --> 1:25:30.040 for changing the tissue rigged mortis, but blood will start 1:25:30.040 --> 1:25:32.680 to coagulate. You no longer have a bleeding when you 1:25:32.720 --> 1:25:34.640 shoot them. When they're fresh put down, you still have 1:25:34.760 --> 1:25:37.200 some blood coming out of the tissues you have. You 1:25:37.439 --> 1:25:41.920 guys into a guy that sent in this thing about 1:25:42.000 --> 1:25:44.080 how he was in a He has a cadaver lab, 1:25:44.160 --> 1:25:47.519 or was in a cadaver lab. Human cadaver lab. They 1:25:47.680 --> 1:25:54.679 pump beef blood through cadavers to keep them. I don't know, yeah, 1:25:55.120 --> 1:26:02.680 freshened up. You could apply that you started. He's a 1:26:02.720 --> 1:26:07.080 lab guy there. I do feel stuff. They even do 1:26:07.160 --> 1:26:13.880 it at tempt so they use souvied warm beef blood 1:26:13.920 --> 1:26:18.320 and roll it through cadavers, keeping and fresh. He's making 1:26:18.400 --> 1:26:24.280 note that transfer knowledge, transfer a knowledge right there, if 1:26:24.320 --> 1:26:31.719 the rifleman's paradox doesn't work out, yelled Pat, and that okay, 1:26:31.760 --> 1:26:35.040 what number you know? Okay? With number six? Aerra masks 1:26:35.600 --> 1:26:39.800 the physical airra weight, and that's a real simple one 1:26:39.840 --> 1:26:43.360 from physics. The heavy or something is the longer it 1:26:43.520 --> 1:26:49.040 takes to stop period and as all, it will also 1:26:49.200 --> 1:26:51.840 gave more energy from your boat. I don't care what 1:26:52.000 --> 1:26:55.559 kind of boat you shoot. If you put a heavier 1:26:55.640 --> 1:26:58.519 air on there. It's going to happen. It won't be big, 1:26:59.520 --> 1:27:03.800 but it's going to have an increase in kinetic energy transfer, 1:27:04.439 --> 1:27:07.280 which is the proper use of kinetic energy, not what 1:27:07.439 --> 1:27:11.439 the ARA does from the bow into the era, because 1:27:11.680 --> 1:27:14.120 all of the noise and the sound of the vibration 1:27:14.200 --> 1:27:16.800 you get with a light era, the heavier area you 1:27:16.840 --> 1:27:19.920 go to, the more it diminishes. Now I haven't gone all. 1:27:20.120 --> 1:27:23.400 I've gone up to about six grain eras, and it's 1:27:23.439 --> 1:27:27.960 still showing that you're still seeing a small kinetic energy 1:27:28.080 --> 1:27:31.880 gain as you go to the heavier eras. Out of 1:27:31.920 --> 1:27:36.880 any given boat, compound recurves long bows, doesn't matter, works 1:27:36.920 --> 1:27:42.800 with all of them, and that ERA mass is going 1:27:42.880 --> 1:27:47.960 to carry this additional force that it has received from 1:27:47.960 --> 1:27:50.040 the bowl. And what we're doing with all these factors 1:27:50.160 --> 1:27:54.760 is trying to maximize the conservation of this force the 1:27:54.880 --> 1:27:58.200 era has derived from the bow to be able to 1:27:58.280 --> 1:28:01.240 apply it to the animal when it hit. Because this 1:28:01.400 --> 1:28:04.200 is the endpoint. This is what really matters, is the 1:28:04.320 --> 1:28:09.360 terminal ballistics. And you know, kinetic energy tells you how 1:28:09.520 --> 1:28:15.559 hard something it um, It doesn't tell you the forward 1:28:15.680 --> 1:28:18.839 motion of it. It doesn't kinnectic energy doesn't have a direction. 1:28:19.560 --> 1:28:23.960 Sound is kinetic energy. Vibration, the shaft is the wiggling 1:28:24.000 --> 1:28:26.040 of the shaft, the resistance of it against the air, 1:28:26.160 --> 1:28:29.760 the paradox. These are all part of kinetic energy. They 1:28:29.840 --> 1:28:33.960 have nothing to do with penetration, because penetration is directional force, 1:28:35.320 --> 1:28:39.600 and that's what you get with momentum. Momentum does have 1:28:39.720 --> 1:28:42.880 a direction, and momentum has to be met by an 1:28:42.920 --> 1:28:47.920 equal force of resistance before it stops. So the more 1:28:48.040 --> 1:28:51.960 momentum you can put into that era, which is mass 1:28:52.040 --> 1:28:56.800 times velocity, not velocity squared, and not all of the 1:28:56.960 --> 1:29:00.800 momentum is force, penetration is concern works out equal. The 1:29:00.960 --> 1:29:04.120 more of that momentum that is invested in the mass 1:29:04.200 --> 1:29:07.120 of the era, the more outcome penetration you're going to have. 1:29:07.760 --> 1:29:09.960 Because the mass of the air is not going to change, 1:29:10.479 --> 1:29:14.360 the velocity is going to decreases, it penetrates, but a 1:29:14.439 --> 1:29:18.360 significant portion of that momentum is invested in the weight 1:29:18.479 --> 1:29:21.439 of the air, and that weight of the error is 1:29:21.479 --> 1:29:24.920 going to carry all the way till it stops. So 1:29:25.120 --> 1:29:27.679 even as that slows down, is still carrying more momentum 1:29:28.880 --> 1:29:31.559 right up to the end, and that's why a bowling 1:29:31.640 --> 1:29:39.760 ball carries a lot more momentum than baseball's next one. Yeah. Now, 1:29:39.840 --> 1:29:42.400 if you're talking connectic energy is one of my things 1:29:42.479 --> 1:29:45.600 I get off on because there are places that have 1:29:45.680 --> 1:29:50.360 applied kinnectic energy as a standard for hunting animals and 1:29:50.520 --> 1:29:52.920 it is not aptical. I'm sorry, it does not apply 1:29:53.840 --> 1:29:56.679 to take a baseball picture. That get a Major League 1:29:56.720 --> 1:30:00.400 baseball picture in pitch ninety six miles an hour with 1:30:00.479 --> 1:30:03.360 a softball. If you look at the laws, they where 1:30:03.360 --> 1:30:05.599 they applied it to Cape Buffalo, that's legal hunt Cape 1:30:05.600 --> 1:30:09.120 Buffalo with that's enough kinetic energy. They don't penetrate worth 1:30:09.160 --> 1:30:11.840 a damn on a Cape Buffalo. It'll make him real 1:30:11.960 --> 1:30:13.960 mad and probably get your pounder in the ground. Oh, 1:30:14.360 --> 1:30:17.200 I got what you're saying. You're saying that kinetic energy 1:30:19.080 --> 1:30:21.080 picture could take a baseball and get the right amount 1:30:21.080 --> 1:30:27.759 of Connecticut more than enough. He's legal. He's legal, he's illegal. 1:30:28.560 --> 1:30:32.600 I got what you're saying. Yeah, And that's one of 1:30:32.640 --> 1:30:35.479 the things the industry has applied for years. Because that 1:30:35.600 --> 1:30:40.880 have speed cell, they push kinetic energy because okay, we 1:30:41.000 --> 1:30:44.280 get this error going faster, we've got more kinetic energy. Wow. 1:30:44.400 --> 1:30:47.040 And Okay, you need this amount of kinetic energy. Now, 1:30:47.600 --> 1:30:49.280 look at all the things where you can see on 1:30:49.360 --> 1:30:51.479 the internet where they tell you you need this much 1:30:51.520 --> 1:30:54.320 kinetic energy for hunting amount an elk, and this much 1:30:54.360 --> 1:30:57.519 front to deer, this much fronting the black bear. Show me. 1:30:57.640 --> 1:31:00.920 One that tells you is that launch connetic energy or 1:31:01.000 --> 1:31:08.519 kinetic energy to impact? Nobody ever says down our study, 1:31:08.560 --> 1:31:12.639 we tracked the momentum and the connectic energy at impact 1:31:12.680 --> 1:31:15.880 as well as it launch. It's the impact one that counts, 1:31:18.080 --> 1:31:20.160 and that's one thing that that heavier error is going 1:31:20.280 --> 1:31:24.080 to carry out. There is that increased momentum to give 1:31:24.120 --> 1:31:28.040 you the penetration you need. And that's why eerroweights imported. 1:31:30.280 --> 1:31:33.280 Next factor seven we're up for seven now is the 1:31:33.640 --> 1:31:39.799 edge finish. We did some testing where we took multiple 1:31:39.880 --> 1:31:43.559 layers of fresh buffalo hide, which is about an inch thick. 1:31:43.840 --> 1:31:47.360 Talking like buffalo buffalo, Asian buffalo. Any of the buffalo 1:31:47.560 --> 1:31:51.080 Asian buffalo actually have a heavier hide across the shoulders 1:31:51.120 --> 1:31:54.880 and chest area. Then they're actually a tougher animal. In 1:31:54.960 --> 1:31:59.600 kate buffalo, bigger, bigger heart by full kg. But we 1:31:59.720 --> 1:32:02.679 made multiple layers of this and took a series of errors, 1:32:03.560 --> 1:32:07.360 and we we sharpened them by different methods. You're talking 1:32:07.400 --> 1:32:10.280 like you was taking green high, green high, fresh green 1:32:10.360 --> 1:32:13.439 high and sandwiching them, sandwiched them together, hung them up 1:32:14.280 --> 1:32:16.600 truck to pull them up. I mean they're heavy, and 1:32:16.880 --> 1:32:19.360 we would shoot them with these ferrets with the edge 1:32:19.600 --> 1:32:24.360 sharpened by different methods. And then we compared for each 1:32:24.520 --> 1:32:30.759 era individually. It's performance against itself with a different edge finish. 1:32:32.400 --> 1:32:36.760 And the worst edge is the old Howard Hills serrated 1:32:36.920 --> 1:32:39.479 edge where you take a file and drag it back 1:32:39.479 --> 1:32:42.360 across the broad head and you make all these little 1:32:42.680 --> 1:32:45.880 look like salt teeth. Run the file lately down wants 1:32:45.920 --> 1:32:48.960 to make a point forward because the first thing it 1:32:49.040 --> 1:32:51.719 does is load up with tissue and then it won't 1:32:51.760 --> 1:32:57.200 cut nothing, nothing at all. File sharpened edges were better, 1:32:57.960 --> 1:33:00.680 but they still do the same thing. My christophey, that 1:33:00.760 --> 1:33:02.960 they've still got I don't care how smooth you file it. 1:33:03.720 --> 1:33:06.559 It's still got these little rough areas if you look 1:33:06.600 --> 1:33:09.599 at it, their high magnification, and they do the same thing. 1:33:10.040 --> 1:33:13.519 They load up with fibers and they get dull a 1:33:13.720 --> 1:33:18.479 honed and stopped edge as thin and smooth and sharp 1:33:18.560 --> 1:33:21.920 as you can get it is your best edge, the 1:33:22.080 --> 1:33:25.360 thinnest so forth for that mechanical advantage we're talking about earlier, 1:33:26.120 --> 1:33:31.120 but honed and stropped where it is just there's not 1:33:31.200 --> 1:33:33.880 a rough place on it, not catching anything, not catching it. 1:33:34.160 --> 1:33:37.360 And actually once you get good at sharpening, as you 1:33:37.479 --> 1:33:41.679 get them that that finish, they actually feel less sharp. 1:33:42.640 --> 1:33:47.240 They're so smart they no longer will great gripped your tissue, 1:33:47.880 --> 1:33:50.160 so they don't they feel like they actually start dulling, 1:33:50.400 --> 1:33:54.560 but they're not. They're actually getting sharper. And you know, 1:33:54.600 --> 1:33:59.080 on the testing we sharpened every broadhead to that honed 1:33:59.120 --> 1:34:03.240 and stripped left. Otherwise the testing is not not valid. 1:34:04.400 --> 1:34:07.120 Now some broad heads that come in the package and 1:34:07.160 --> 1:34:10.439 say they're already factory sharp, well, we'll dress them that way, 1:34:11.040 --> 1:34:12.760 but then when we have to redo them, we'll have 1:34:12.800 --> 1:34:14.960 to sharp them. And you know, and see what they do. 1:34:15.040 --> 1:34:17.879 That one you see fishhooks. The advertise is chemically sharpened. 1:34:18.120 --> 1:34:21.960 Oh yeah, you get all sorts of stuff. Would you 1:34:22.040 --> 1:34:23.880 always buy that, man, I'm like, well that must be 1:34:23.960 --> 1:34:27.640 prete damn sharp. Yeah. Would you say that most broadheads 1:34:27.640 --> 1:34:33.599 coming out of the package are sharp enough? No, very 1:34:33.760 --> 1:34:36.280 few in the world are sharpened, But there are a couple. 1:34:36.439 --> 1:34:40.400 There are a couple that are sharp enough, but not many. 1:34:40.920 --> 1:34:43.439 And you like them spit shined you leathers drop them? 1:34:43.640 --> 1:34:47.280 Oh yeah, well not just. I use a horse hide strap, 1:34:48.200 --> 1:34:50.280 which is probably the best leather strop you can get 1:34:52.360 --> 1:34:56.240 the rump the rump hide off the horse years ago. 1:34:56.520 --> 1:35:02.040 That used to be one leather. Yep, there's only one 1:35:02.080 --> 1:35:04.160 factory in the world that makes it. A leather is 1:35:04.240 --> 1:35:08.559 definitionally horse hide rump yep. Yep, no ship, only one place. 1:35:08.600 --> 1:35:10.280 The one factory in the world makes it in Chicago. 1:35:10.600 --> 1:35:14.000 It's the toughest leather in the world. And and I 1:35:14.200 --> 1:35:18.840 used uh, I used double sided and and one one 1:35:18.920 --> 1:35:24.719 side is uh finished with. I put polishing compoundering sixty 1:35:24.760 --> 1:35:27.760 tho grid and the other side has nothing on it. 1:35:27.800 --> 1:35:31.560 It's just the hide sixty grid sixty thou grid. But 1:35:31.760 --> 1:35:34.120 the other side that has nothing on it has been 1:35:34.160 --> 1:35:38.760 sanded down with ten thousand grid sandpaper to poloshy so 1:35:38.920 --> 1:35:42.519 that it's just a hard polished surface. And that punches 1:35:42.560 --> 1:35:47.920 some buffalo hide that'll punch through some buffs with with 1:35:48.600 --> 1:35:52.960 incredible difference in the penetration that you had. But it 1:35:53.080 --> 1:35:55.360 was consistent with every error. It didn't matter. For it's 1:35:55.400 --> 1:35:59.360 a three blade, four blade, whatever kind of head we used, 1:36:00.080 --> 1:36:04.840 the hone is dropped always penetrated the most, The file 1:36:04.920 --> 1:36:09.320 sharpened always was second, and the hill ones were always last. 1:36:10.200 --> 1:36:13.120 With all these different kinds of broad heads and different 1:36:13.200 --> 1:36:16.000 errors and different weight errors, but every error is compared 1:36:16.040 --> 1:36:18.160 only back to self, not to all the other errors. 1:36:19.000 --> 1:36:21.719 So it was strictly sharpening method that made the difference 1:36:21.720 --> 1:36:24.080 in penetration. I got a problem right now. So we're 1:36:24.080 --> 1:36:27.080 on seven. This is great, and I want to open 1:36:27.160 --> 1:36:28.600 up a real can of worms. But I want you 1:36:28.680 --> 1:36:31.479 to I want you to not take de bait too much. 1:36:34.640 --> 1:36:38.640 So like set a timer because we were going to 1:36:38.680 --> 1:36:40.160 get into this heavy duty but we're not gonna be 1:36:40.160 --> 1:36:44.400 able to work. I'm too I like the list too much. Now. 1:36:44.560 --> 1:36:47.200 Yanni was mentioned to me. I didn't know this. He 1:36:47.360 --> 1:36:51.920 was mentioned to me that you've spent time in Papua 1:36:52.000 --> 1:36:55.880 New Guinea. Yes, research and arrows. Yes. And I just 1:36:55.960 --> 1:36:59.720 want to bring up one anecdote, Okay, I just want 1:36:59.760 --> 1:37:06.120 you to very quickly address um ancestral archery technology real quick. 1:37:06.120 --> 1:37:08.920 And the anecdote is this, you know the guy we 1:37:09.040 --> 1:37:12.400 bought rush off of. Yeah, Alex that one of the 1:37:12.439 --> 1:37:16.280 tsars his kid. I think it was his twenty second 1:37:16.320 --> 1:37:21.360 birthday in eighteen seventy one, seventy two, his kid came 1:37:21.400 --> 1:37:25.120 out and went on a buffalo hunt with Custer Yeah, 1:37:25.160 --> 1:37:29.560 and wild Bill Cody. Afterward. I believe it was a 1:37:29.760 --> 1:37:33.000 I can't mamber if you Cheyenne. The guy went out 1:37:33.280 --> 1:37:40.479 rode up alongside of buffalo bison, not a buffalo. Yeah, 1:37:40.600 --> 1:37:42.400 I know. Okay, But if I said I was going 1:37:42.479 --> 1:37:44.160 and if I said I was going to antelope hunting 1:37:44.160 --> 1:37:46.240 and Wyoming, would you be like, boy, I'm very confused 1:37:46.320 --> 1:37:47.800 right now, or would you know what I was talking about? 1:37:48.560 --> 1:37:54.679 Buffalo gets to be a very contentious terms about buffalo testing, 1:37:54.920 --> 1:38:01.600 they think, But I'm using it extremely intentionally. Uh What 1:38:01.760 --> 1:38:04.320 was I getting at Buffalo? He wrote up beside it 1:38:04.360 --> 1:38:06.120 and shotty, oh yeah, I once. Here's the funny store. 1:38:06.120 --> 1:38:08.080 I'll tell you real quick. When I was doing some 1:38:08.160 --> 1:38:09.840 research one time, and I was with these guys from 1:38:09.880 --> 1:38:13.760 the Buffalo Field Campaign, Okay, and these are like activists 1:38:14.080 --> 1:38:17.679 who were working to prevent state slaughter of bison leaving 1:38:17.760 --> 1:38:20.960 Yelsto National Park, but their organizations called the Buffalo Field Campaign. 1:38:21.000 --> 1:38:23.280 I'm standing there with the guy from the Buffalo Field campaign, 1:38:23.560 --> 1:38:25.640 and here comes the pronghorn running by, and I say, oh, 1:38:25.640 --> 1:38:28.439 there's an antelope. He goes, that's actually a prong horn. Yes, 1:38:28.560 --> 1:38:33.160 And I'm like, here, organizations named wrong, there's like popular terminology, right. 1:38:34.160 --> 1:38:38.720 So a bison, the American bison, the American bison punches, uh, 1:38:39.520 --> 1:38:42.720 punches a nail right through it and then presents the arrow. 1:38:43.920 --> 1:38:46.960 So pass through shop presents the arrow to whatever his 1:38:47.080 --> 1:38:52.439 name was, okay, and brings it home. Um. In your 1:38:52.840 --> 1:39:00.519 research of the planes bow archery tackle used in Papua 1:39:00.560 --> 1:39:07.880 New Guinea, Clovis points, have you found um different cultures 1:39:08.040 --> 1:39:12.840 that had uh? Have you found evidence of different cultures 1:39:12.920 --> 1:39:18.680 that accidentally or intentionally we're applying things that you're now 1:39:18.800 --> 1:39:22.200 impressed by? Have you found cultures that, man, how did 1:39:22.240 --> 1:39:25.160 they not realize? I think a lot of this stuff 1:39:25.960 --> 1:39:29.400 was known probably thousands of years ago, and we've lost 1:39:30.720 --> 1:39:34.479 We're just rediscovering what people need. If you look at 1:39:35.760 --> 1:39:40.720 Japanese eras, uh, you look at Chinese eras, these were 1:39:40.920 --> 1:39:45.840 high foc eras. Look at the medieval war eras, high 1:39:46.000 --> 1:39:50.840 foc eras, high mass. This stuff has been used all 1:39:51.080 --> 1:39:54.720 all around New Guineas, and not just because the limitations 1:39:54.720 --> 1:39:57.640 of the materials like evidence that there was like intentionally 1:39:57.720 --> 1:40:00.320 like could have been different, but was intentionally the The 1:40:00.479 --> 1:40:04.679 perfect example is New Guinea of intentional because I examined 1:40:04.800 --> 1:40:09.000 archery equipment that was pre World War Two, no steel available. 1:40:09.400 --> 1:40:13.120 The points are made of hardwood. The bowls were made 1:40:13.160 --> 1:40:16.360 of black palm. These are beautiful, graceful bowls would not 1:40:16.600 --> 1:40:19.000 look out of place at a at a primitive archery 1:40:19.040 --> 1:40:24.160 shoot now today. And the air shafts were much like 1:40:24.280 --> 1:40:26.160 we would think of the diameter of an air shaft, 1:40:26.840 --> 1:40:30.960 and the wooden points are quite long, made out of hardwood, 1:40:31.520 --> 1:40:36.280 but these eras were uh. I think the lowest that 1:40:36.360 --> 1:40:39.840 I measured was about which should be altered. Extreme f 1:40:39.960 --> 1:40:44.360 o z going up into the World War two comes 1:40:44.439 --> 1:40:50.680 along and all of a sudden, there's rebar. There're steel now. 1:40:50.800 --> 1:40:52.760 All the points are made out of steel. They're huge, 1:40:52.840 --> 1:40:55.920 looks like a spear. Well in order to use them, 1:40:56.120 --> 1:41:00.240 they had to go to a big cane shaft. They 1:41:00.360 --> 1:41:02.960 make these things. You know, they're five and a half 1:41:03.000 --> 1:41:07.240 six ft long, these eras. But even with that big shaft, 1:41:07.320 --> 1:41:10.479 these points weigh so much and we're talking to the light. 1:41:10.640 --> 1:41:13.920 Errors are on up three thousand and thirty five grains 1:41:14.280 --> 1:41:17.080 and go up, you know, well above four thousand grain eras. 1:41:18.400 --> 1:41:22.960 They couldn't get it to tune. And they actually tune 1:41:23.000 --> 1:41:25.679 their eras just like we do when we bear shaft, 1:41:25.680 --> 1:41:29.479 the same process off of their traditional bows. So what 1:41:29.560 --> 1:41:32.760 do they do? They change their entire bow. It is 1:41:32.800 --> 1:41:40.920 no longer you know, long um beautiful black palm. It 1:41:41.080 --> 1:41:43.679 is now seven and a half feet long. It's made 1:41:43.680 --> 1:41:47.760 out of bamboo. It's about that wide. Why is it 1:41:47.840 --> 1:41:50.320 that wide? If you put that era way over here, 1:41:51.160 --> 1:41:53.840 paradox that chaft can be in an old lot more 1:41:54.439 --> 1:41:59.240 in tune around to straight flight. But they build these 1:41:59.280 --> 1:42:01.639 heavy aras, no two errors alike, because they're just hammering 1:42:01.680 --> 1:42:04.400 them out. But they'll get up there and shoot that 1:42:04.479 --> 1:42:07.280 era and do just like we do. They'll keep shortening 1:42:07.360 --> 1:42:11.000 that shaft until it shoots straight. Now, they don't use 1:42:11.040 --> 1:42:15.599 any fletching, but there foc on the post World War 1:42:15.720 --> 1:42:19.479 two eras is even heavier. Most of those are above 1:42:21.160 --> 1:42:24.960 foc That's why I didn't get away with shooting them 1:42:25.000 --> 1:42:28.639 with no fletching whatsoever. Plus the factor not going very fast, 1:42:28.840 --> 1:42:33.479 which decreases the wind shear on the on the broadhead. Uh. 1:42:34.479 --> 1:42:38.080 I didn't have any way to measure the velocity. I 1:42:38.120 --> 1:42:40.800 didn't have a chronograph there or anything like that. And 1:42:40.920 --> 1:42:44.960 the bows both the pre World War two post World 1:42:45.040 --> 1:42:48.760 War two. Uh, they said the pre World War two 1:42:48.800 --> 1:42:51.280 bowls were about as heavy. And just pulling it, I 1:42:51.320 --> 1:42:53.760 would say it's in the eighty pound range is the 1:42:53.840 --> 1:43:00.320 typical boat um And the velocity I was the specter 1:43:00.400 --> 1:43:02.840 is less than a hundred feet per second m hm. 1:43:04.040 --> 1:43:07.360 And they consider out to twenty five meters good shooting range. 1:43:08.360 --> 1:43:10.800 And these guys are deadly with him. What are they hunting? 1:43:11.479 --> 1:43:15.519 Roosa deer and pigs? Those are the two commons. Roosa 1:43:15.600 --> 1:43:20.400 deer live out in bald open country floodplains. The only 1:43:20.560 --> 1:43:22.519 stalking youn do is just the role of the ground. 1:43:23.400 --> 1:43:26.519 And for whatever reason, they generally stalk three guys at 1:43:26.520 --> 1:43:29.599 a time, but only one shoots. And I watched them 1:43:29.640 --> 1:43:31.719 went out with one hunt and watched them from distance 1:43:31.800 --> 1:43:34.280 with the blocktors, I probably wouldn't get enough stalker to 1:43:34.320 --> 1:43:37.479 stay with them. And uh, they it's about a twenty 1:43:37.520 --> 1:43:41.120 five yards shot the guy took. Now, they traditionally carry 1:43:42.000 --> 1:43:45.479 three eras all three will be different and a blunt. 1:43:47.080 --> 1:43:51.639 And he took his heaviest era, which was about grains, 1:43:52.800 --> 1:43:57.719 is the one he chose to shoot, and plump drives 1:43:57.760 --> 1:44:00.200 this big head all the way sticking out the other 1:44:00.280 --> 1:44:02.880 side of the atom. Of course, the shaft is great, big. 1:44:02.960 --> 1:44:06.160 It stops at the shaft but points long enough it's 1:44:06.200 --> 1:44:08.479 coming out to the other side of the rooster. Dear. Yeah, 1:44:08.560 --> 1:44:14.120 when and when docs saying the points long, he's like showing, yeah, 1:44:14.640 --> 1:44:17.040 the short ones will be about a foot. Wellmber, those 1:44:17.080 --> 1:44:19.439 boys in Guyana when they had the like the tape 1:44:19.520 --> 1:44:21.519 year points yeah, I mean it's like, I don't know, 1:44:21.760 --> 1:44:26.599 eleven twelve inches of hammered thin steel. And I asked 1:44:26.640 --> 1:44:28.439 the guy. He had the best answer I've ever heard. 1:44:29.360 --> 1:44:31.840 I asked him he was one of the few that 1:44:31.920 --> 1:44:35.800 spoke in English, and why he chose that are out 1:44:35.800 --> 1:44:37.400 of his three because he was the heaviest area he 1:44:37.520 --> 1:44:53.840 had and the best answers there was works best all right, 1:44:53.920 --> 1:44:59.960 Number eight, Okay, the shaft profile, we actually touched him. 1:45:00.160 --> 1:45:03.920 We've talked about the parallel shaft, the taper shaft, and 1:45:04.000 --> 1:45:06.720 the barrel taper shaft. That's what we're looking at. Their 1:45:07.120 --> 1:45:11.000 Then the taper shaft works the best parallel shaft as 1:45:11.120 --> 1:45:14.519 long as it's not bigger than the farrel works really well. 1:45:15.160 --> 1:45:18.280 It's probably the standard most people would go by. And 1:45:19.080 --> 1:45:22.920 the barrel taper shaft is definitely the worst, no question 1:45:23.000 --> 1:45:28.639 about it. And uh oh yeah, that's enough on that one. 1:45:28.760 --> 1:45:30.880 Then we talked about the broad head and an air 1:45:30.920 --> 1:45:33.679 of silhouette, and we touched on that too. You want 1:45:33.760 --> 1:45:39.200 the smoothest transition you can get. You don't want any lumps, bumps, 1:45:39.560 --> 1:45:46.639 spot wells, uh trash, abrupt transitions and stealth bomber other 1:45:46.760 --> 1:45:49.519 than the step down you might get just back of 1:45:49.560 --> 1:45:52.600 the farrel to the shaft. You do not want a 1:45:52.720 --> 1:45:56.400 bump on that era if you can avoid it. Sometimes 1:45:56.439 --> 1:45:58.519 you can't avoid it, like put that old turbulator on there. 1:45:58.680 --> 1:46:01.880 But that's a little We actually used model airplane pin 1:46:02.000 --> 1:46:07.920 stripe that's about six minute wide, no maybe even smaller 1:46:08.040 --> 1:46:13.400 than that, very narrow, just enough to disrupt that lambent 1:46:13.479 --> 1:46:17.679 or airflow. You remember, remember delta broadheads from a long 1:46:17.800 --> 1:46:21.160 time ago. I have a deer skull that's got one 1:46:21.160 --> 1:46:23.800 of those rattling around inside the dad shot in the 1:46:24.000 --> 1:46:28.360 shot the deer in the forehead, um it has serrated bleeders, 1:46:28.520 --> 1:46:33.599 so it's got double beveled. But then they would put 1:46:33.640 --> 1:46:37.400 little bleeders there and the bleeders are serrated. Uh, you 1:46:37.439 --> 1:46:41.920 don't like that profile because that's that's a double sin, 1:46:42.120 --> 1:46:45.479 right said. So it made it past that because they 1:46:45.560 --> 1:46:48.320 had a heck of a bump. Yeah no, it's it's 1:46:48.400 --> 1:46:52.960 rattling around and it's awesome. Yeah, Well, I prob they 1:46:53.000 --> 1:46:56.519 had They knew where a deer was feeding alongside a 1:46:56.680 --> 1:47:01.680 road and it was very accustomed to vehicular traffic. So 1:47:01.840 --> 1:47:03.560 he had his friend. He opened the door on a 1:47:03.640 --> 1:47:07.360 van and he had his friend drive very slowly. He 1:47:07.600 --> 1:47:09.920 rolled out of the moving van with the with the 1:47:10.000 --> 1:47:12.880 re curve, and then that dud would just watched cars 1:47:12.960 --> 1:47:14.920 go by. And he rolled out of the van while 1:47:14.960 --> 1:47:16.720 I was moving, rolls up and shot and she like 1:47:16.800 --> 1:47:18.800 took notice something she had swung her head around. It 1:47:18.880 --> 1:47:21.840 punched right in the forehead. So I gotta hang it 1:47:21.880 --> 1:47:26.360 on my wall with that thing. Guy. Only other guy 1:47:26.439 --> 1:47:29.280 in my county that but one beside me shot one 1:47:29.439 --> 1:47:32.439 in the forehead, did not get it. It ran off 1:47:32.520 --> 1:47:38.439 for the air across fifty yards open field by a unicorn. 1:47:38.640 --> 1:47:40.320 That does that does a lot of good for pr 1:47:41.320 --> 1:47:43.040 Can you can you touch on I guess while we're 1:47:43.040 --> 1:47:46.920 talking about bleeder blades, just why I guess I can 1:47:46.960 --> 1:47:48.920 tell you why people think they're good right because it 1:47:49.439 --> 1:47:51.920 gives you, like another access of a cut. There's more 1:47:52.040 --> 1:47:54.720 things they have lost, the premise of it. I had. 1:47:54.800 --> 1:47:58.240 I had the honor of actually hunting with Fred there. 1:47:59.160 --> 1:48:01.479 I heard him tell list around the campfire. I had 1:48:01.560 --> 1:48:05.200 lunch with him and yeah, nice guy Acroan Ohio. He uh. 1:48:06.040 --> 1:48:08.640 He said that the bleeder, the original bleeder blade if 1:48:08.680 --> 1:48:11.280 you've seen the original bear razor heads were made out 1:48:11.320 --> 1:48:15.120 of that hard blue carbon steel. He said. The purpose 1:48:15.200 --> 1:48:17.840 of that is as soon as it hits a hard 1:48:17.880 --> 1:48:21.760 surface like a bone, its shatters, then the broad hid 1:48:21.800 --> 1:48:25.960 can carry on like a normal single blade broadhead is 1:48:26.080 --> 1:48:29.639 only to open a bigger hole in the soft tissue 1:48:29.920 --> 1:48:34.280 to reduce the drag of the shaft. Where you hoping, 1:48:34.320 --> 1:48:37.000 Fred Bear, he came to the least that Bob Lee 1:48:37.040 --> 1:48:40.880 had Uh sod Ben Pierson, Yeah, I gotta be good, 1:48:40.880 --> 1:48:43.400 pretty good friends with Ben Pierson. I picked up a 1:48:43.520 --> 1:48:48.000 lot of valuable shooting information from him. So the blades 1:48:48.080 --> 1:48:53.080 just got misnamed. Well, no, people said oh, these blades 1:48:53.160 --> 1:48:55.360 break off and they leave blades in the meat, and 1:48:55.439 --> 1:48:57.640 somebody made eat them. So they started to make him 1:48:57.640 --> 1:48:59.600 out of stuff that would ben and then destroyed the 1:48:59.640 --> 1:49:03.120 whole inceptive at working. Now I just increase error drag 1:49:04.080 --> 1:49:09.439 and you just ruined your penetration. But that wasn't the 1:49:09.520 --> 1:49:13.160 intent when Fred Bare designed him. He had the design right, 1:49:13.200 --> 1:49:15.559 if you're gonna use a bleeder blade, that's the one 1:49:15.640 --> 1:49:20.519 you want. And so bleeder blades they're advertised or put 1:49:20.600 --> 1:49:25.879 onto broadheads. Now they're just reducing your drag. But they've 1:49:25.920 --> 1:49:28.000 been pretty easy, most of them, because the very thing 1:49:28.520 --> 1:49:32.880 instead of breaking shattering like the original bleeder blades on 1:49:32.920 --> 1:49:36.439 the bear razor head, they've been once you could be 1:49:36.479 --> 1:49:38.679 in like that tiny tip Ben, when we're talking about 1:49:39.400 --> 1:49:43.519 just they I mean almost as small you can hardly 1:49:43.560 --> 1:49:49.920 see it. That's looses of the penetration. Just that little band. 1:49:50.120 --> 1:49:52.639 And what's the band of any kind gonna do. It's 1:49:52.680 --> 1:49:55.760 going to read that direct the path of that era. 1:49:56.120 --> 1:49:58.559 What's that gonna do? The shaft, Now, the shaft has 1:49:58.600 --> 1:50:01.120 got to try to make this be in pushing all 1:50:01.200 --> 1:50:06.200 that tissue, it just kills your penetration. It just doesn't 1:50:06.240 --> 1:50:10.479 work at all. That's why structural integrity is the number 1:50:10.520 --> 1:50:18.120 one thing. Okay, we're down number ten, which we've already 1:50:18.120 --> 1:50:21.080 touched on, is going through the type of edge bevel 1:50:22.240 --> 1:50:25.040 through soft tissue. I thought that was earlier on the thing. No, 1:50:25.280 --> 1:50:26.960 we just got off on it because we were talking 1:50:27.000 --> 1:50:29.880 about edge thickness and stuff. That's why don't remember me 1:50:29.960 --> 1:50:32.320 saying I thought you you described for like it was 1:50:32.479 --> 1:50:36.720 for A, B and C. No, it is just we 1:50:36.960 --> 1:50:39.640 we just got off on it. So way down to 1:50:39.720 --> 1:50:43.880 number ten, the type of edge bevel you do get 1:50:43.920 --> 1:50:47.840 an increase in penetration. And we used it with different profiles, broadheads, 1:50:48.400 --> 1:50:52.840 identical identical error set ups. You know, compared double bevel 1:50:52.920 --> 1:50:55.880 to single bevel, you get an increase in penetration even 1:50:55.920 --> 1:50:59.000 a soft tissue with a single bevel. And this was 1:50:59.400 --> 1:51:01.560 one of the things in the testing that had a 1:51:01.680 --> 1:51:08.880 hundred percent frequency. It happened every time and looking at 1:51:09.320 --> 1:51:13.280 no matter what you hit, yeah with well a soft 1:51:13.280 --> 1:51:16.759 tissue with bone, it's even more start because the single 1:51:16.800 --> 1:51:20.200 bevel torqus and pops that bone. You get a massive 1:51:20.280 --> 1:51:27.720 increase in average penetration. Are mean or media median or minimum, 1:51:27.960 --> 1:51:29.680 you know, any any of the factors you want to 1:51:29.720 --> 1:51:32.720 take out maximum penetration on every area. You can look 1:51:32.760 --> 1:51:35.439 at that, you know, full graph, compare any of them 1:51:35.479 --> 1:51:39.479 back and forth. You always have a higher percentage of 1:51:39.520 --> 1:51:43.479 penetration with a single vel, and it was frequency in 1:51:43.520 --> 1:51:49.160 the testing. So it is important, particularly on bone though, 1:51:49.200 --> 1:51:51.880 that's where it makes the biggest difference, and a lot 1:51:51.960 --> 1:51:55.439 of that is the higher mechanical advantage of the edge 1:51:55.680 --> 1:52:00.679 less resistance. Going through slice is easier, it is more work. 1:52:01.439 --> 1:52:07.920 Was he applied force? It penetrates more, just as simple physics, No, 1:52:08.680 --> 1:52:11.240 nothing magic about it. I want to remember how we 1:52:11.320 --> 1:52:14.760 wedge that traditional bit in between whatever, like eight and nine. 1:52:15.920 --> 1:52:21.760 I want to wedge something in here. Okay, talk about um. 1:52:22.120 --> 1:52:26.080 Apparently you're talking to Yanni about this about shooting animals 1:52:26.120 --> 1:52:28.960 and propping them up and shooting them. Yeah, that's the 1:52:28.960 --> 1:52:31.160 way we did most of the testing on freshy, cold animals. 1:52:31.800 --> 1:52:33.600 You put the animal down, you got thirty minutes. So 1:52:33.720 --> 1:52:35.800 this is just so again, let's bring it back to 1:52:35.880 --> 1:52:39.000 like the beginning. This is like when you talk about 1:52:39.080 --> 1:52:42.320 the study. This is the study. This isn't like the 1:52:42.400 --> 1:52:44.120 last you were because earlier you said, oh, the last 1:52:44.160 --> 1:52:48.920 six hundred animals that have come in. Those animals are 1:52:49.600 --> 1:52:53.920 separate database, and we used the hunted animals as a 1:52:54.040 --> 1:52:58.280 cross reference. Are we seeing the same thing that the 1:52:58.400 --> 1:53:01.200 setup shots on these fresh down day animals are indicating? 1:53:02.040 --> 1:53:04.280 And yes we did. So this was this was what 1:53:04.520 --> 1:53:07.840 you called the the tallest study. No, the tall study 1:53:08.080 --> 1:53:12.400 is where it started with. And those were actually hunted animals. 1:53:13.280 --> 1:53:17.280 So then you went to a place where, like explained, 1:53:17.280 --> 1:53:19.560 because we still I don't think anybody knows exactly like 1:53:20.160 --> 1:53:23.280 when the study happened, what it was, where you were, 1:53:23.400 --> 1:53:25.240 what the animals were. All I said at the time 1:53:25.240 --> 1:53:27.479 I got through with it a tall study, I had 1:53:27.560 --> 1:53:32.519 more questions than I did going in, and so I said, okay, 1:53:32.720 --> 1:53:35.240 you know, I want to carry on with this. And 1:53:35.439 --> 1:53:40.240 so I would do as many autopsies on animals as 1:53:40.320 --> 1:53:43.040 I could. I made several trips back and forth Africa. 1:53:43.320 --> 1:53:46.280 But then it really kicked up when I retired, and 1:53:47.160 --> 1:53:50.360 the first four years I was over there, I spent 1:53:50.439 --> 1:53:52.960 at least three hundred days a year hunting. Now that 1:53:53.080 --> 1:53:56.280 was either guiding or which I didn't do a lot 1:53:56.360 --> 1:54:00.360 of are are hunting on my own, shooting animals, and 1:54:00.760 --> 1:54:03.599 UH would do buffalo whenever we could, like probably we'd 1:54:03.640 --> 1:54:06.760 go into Mozambie can do the buffalo over there, uh 1:54:07.160 --> 1:54:11.080 and collect as much dat as we possibly could. Then 1:54:11.200 --> 1:54:14.320 after I got thrown out of Zimbabwe when they kicked 1:54:14.320 --> 1:54:18.400 all the Americans out uh that weren't didn't have permanent residency, 1:54:19.320 --> 1:54:22.280 I came back to the state's regroup and went down 1:54:22.360 --> 1:54:25.720 to Australia and spent time in Australia, New Zealand and 1:54:25.800 --> 1:54:30.080 New Guinea, all that area down there. But through contacts 1:54:30.720 --> 1:54:32.440 I ran in a guy he used to be the 1:54:32.520 --> 1:54:39.320 chief game ranger up in Kacadoo Park uh and Australia 1:54:40.080 --> 1:54:44.760 of the Northern Territory. He shot who knows, thirty forty 1:54:44.800 --> 1:54:47.560 thousand buffalo you know, back when they're trying to eradicate 1:54:47.640 --> 1:54:49.680 because they're like a nine native. Yeah, so they were 1:54:50.040 --> 1:54:52.960 for years tried to eradicate him and his his son 1:54:53.120 --> 1:54:57.240 is still one of the park rangers there, probably thirty 1:54:57.320 --> 1:55:03.120 forty of them. And because they out him from everything, cars, helicopters, boats, anywhere, 1:55:03.120 --> 1:55:05.560 they could shoot him of any any buffalo you saw 1:55:05.600 --> 1:55:09.360 you shot, uh, And we're not able to knock the 1:55:09.480 --> 1:55:14.640 population down. So after he retired, he talked the government 1:55:14.680 --> 1:55:18.800 of the Fishing Game Department into establishing a study where 1:55:19.080 --> 1:55:21.800 he fenced in I don't know, it's about seven miles 1:55:21.880 --> 1:55:25.240 by seven miles high fence. Uh And he's trying to 1:55:25.320 --> 1:55:28.600 determine the carrying capacity without damaging the habitat for the 1:55:28.640 --> 1:55:31.760 buffalo and he has to take about five hundred a 1:55:31.880 --> 1:55:36.720 year off two keep the population at a level that 1:55:36.880 --> 1:55:39.640 won't damage the habitat, or at least they think it's 1:55:39.640 --> 1:55:43.640 not gonna damage it. And uh so I got and 1:55:43.840 --> 1:55:47.200 and and he's sort of a reclusive don't take to 1:55:47.280 --> 1:55:50.400 everybody and think I'll live in the middle of nowhere. 1:55:50.520 --> 1:55:55.000 He's really in the middle of nowhere. And uh we 1:55:55.160 --> 1:55:57.640 just hit it off. And he used to do a 1:55:57.720 --> 1:56:00.480 lot of testing while he's calling all these animals for 1:56:01.000 --> 1:56:04.640 Woodley bullets because he's got a huge collection of firearms, 1:56:04.760 --> 1:56:08.760 a lot of double rifles, British shotguns. Oh, I mean, 1:56:08.800 --> 1:56:11.920 he's got a literally see container full of them. And 1:56:12.320 --> 1:56:16.120 uh so, I you know, when I went up there 1:56:16.160 --> 1:56:18.800 and met him through through a client that I had 1:56:18.840 --> 1:56:24.280 guided in Australia that knew it, and uh we we 1:56:24.400 --> 1:56:26.720 hit it off. And he said, you know, yeah, listen 1:56:26.800 --> 1:56:29.280 let's come on up and said when when we're shooting 1:56:29.280 --> 1:56:32.600 buffalo year around, said, come up and we'll you know, 1:56:32.640 --> 1:56:35.280 we'll shoot the buffalo. We'll set up you know, when 1:56:35.320 --> 1:56:37.440 you can test your arabs on him. And he thought 1:56:37.440 --> 1:56:41.040 it was fascinating. So the other guys work for the 1:56:41.800 --> 1:56:43.680 park there, the other game rangers, and had a lot 1:56:43.720 --> 1:56:46.240 of them come out and watch. They were absolutely fascinating 1:56:46.320 --> 1:56:49.480 what we're doing with eras. And uh so I would 1:56:49.480 --> 1:56:52.600 go up there three months a year and we would 1:56:52.600 --> 1:56:55.520 do as many buffaloes as we could do. And I 1:56:55.600 --> 1:56:57.920 could do because of all the stuff you got to do, 1:56:58.040 --> 1:57:01.720 the record keeping, the reaching a broad heads, the building 1:57:01.760 --> 1:57:04.280 of new error setups and things you want to test 1:57:05.000 --> 1:57:07.360 the most I can do with one buffalo every three 1:57:07.440 --> 1:57:11.600 days and and get done. Uh. And we would go 1:57:11.680 --> 1:57:14.520 out and he would get on the four wheel er. 1:57:14.560 --> 1:57:17.680 I would follow him and and uh, we find a buffalo, 1:57:17.760 --> 1:57:20.560 will cary all the gear with us, and he'd shoot 1:57:20.600 --> 1:57:24.440 the buffalo, put it down usually head shot, next shot 1:57:24.600 --> 1:57:27.680 something like that. We get there, prop it up, do 1:57:27.800 --> 1:57:31.280 our shooting, and then collect all of our data. And 1:57:31.400 --> 1:57:34.000 then I would go back and you know, do die 1:57:34.040 --> 1:57:37.480 and carry parts of it back to dissect and uh, 1:57:38.000 --> 1:57:40.880 we're had error stuck in the bones and stuff like that, 1:57:41.600 --> 1:57:44.800 and and uh that I'd write all the recordings down 1:57:44.880 --> 1:57:52.320 and then resharpen everything, get ready to variables variables on there. 1:57:52.640 --> 1:57:57.080 And that's everything from uh you know the bowl, uh, 1:57:57.440 --> 1:58:01.120 the launch kinetic energy to launch momentum, the impact momentum, 1:58:01.480 --> 1:58:05.040 what tip of animal it was, what distance was shot at, uh, 1:58:05.160 --> 1:58:07.560 what bones were hit. So you've got to make it 1:58:07.640 --> 1:58:12.440 easier because you know, I didn't have a true database 1:58:12.680 --> 1:58:17.080 computer wise, so I have a field there like it's 1:58:17.120 --> 1:58:21.160 this entrance rib hit. Yes, no industry of penetrating and 1:58:21.240 --> 1:58:24.760 penetrate means passed completely through if it just sticks out 1:58:24.760 --> 1:58:27.640 together side, he didn't penetrate it. The bone stopped the hair. 1:58:27.800 --> 1:58:29.880 I mean the broadhead had passed through the whole, because 1:58:30.000 --> 1:58:32.400 the broad head had to completely pass through the bone 1:58:32.880 --> 1:58:36.360 to consider it penetrating. And then you would carry on 1:58:36.520 --> 1:58:40.360 through other bones and organs of what was hit. You know, 1:58:40.480 --> 1:58:43.640 the extra ribs it hit was scapula hit. You know 1:58:43.680 --> 1:58:46.840 it was a spinal he had spinal process um you know, 1:58:46.840 --> 1:58:50.640 depending on what you're shooting at, pelvic girdle, neck, vertebra. Uh, 1:58:51.120 --> 1:58:53.600 So you've got all these bones in there, so you 1:58:53.640 --> 1:58:56.640 can go through it and look for something in a 1:58:56.760 --> 1:58:59.400 in a It's in a spreadsheet, so I had limited 1:58:59.520 --> 1:59:02.960 search if ability. But I could say, you know, all 1:59:03.200 --> 1:59:11.040 of the trophy sized bull um asian buffalo uh hit 1:59:12.240 --> 1:59:19.280 from a twenty degree angle uh impacting the ribs, and 1:59:19.360 --> 1:59:21.840 I'd get all of those, and then I can go 1:59:21.920 --> 1:59:23.840 back and get the same thing and say, give me 1:59:23.880 --> 1:59:26.520 all the single bevels that did that. Give me the 1:59:26.600 --> 1:59:29.640 results from all of the UH E f O C 1:59:29.840 --> 1:59:34.240 eras that did that, or the ULTRAFC eras, and that 1:59:34.360 --> 1:59:38.480 way you can start comparing stuff. Okay, here's averages for this, 1:59:38.640 --> 1:59:41.760 here's average and take out. Okay, these are double bevel broadheads, 1:59:41.840 --> 1:59:44.760 let's get those, you know, let's get single bevel broadheads. 1:59:45.200 --> 1:59:47.120 And so you can start getting all these sets of 1:59:47.240 --> 1:59:49.640 data to compare back and forth to each other, where 1:59:49.680 --> 1:59:51.640 you can look at what was the minimum penetration, what 1:59:51.800 --> 1:59:54.480 was the maximum uh. And then you've got fields and 1:59:54.480 --> 1:59:56.760 every where you described stuff too that really didn't fit in, 1:59:57.280 --> 2:00:00.280 like bone skips and things like that. U up. So 2:00:00.360 --> 2:00:04.880 you got one field that's just free field, described the shot, 2:00:05.040 --> 2:00:08.160 the tissue damage, the whatever you wanted to describe it 2:00:08.240 --> 2:00:11.960 there and uh on that one when you when we've 2:00:12.000 --> 2:00:15.160 got links for photos, I said, it's a bad photographer. 2:00:15.200 --> 2:00:17.160 Didn't have anything like that. So I had to keep 2:00:17.240 --> 2:00:20.320 tracking what was what with photos just you know, in 2:00:20.440 --> 2:00:24.960 a book, so just one like one aspect of this. 2:00:25.280 --> 2:00:28.560 What were the when you were doing this? What were 2:00:28.600 --> 2:00:32.600 the shot distances for instances uniform? All of those are 2:00:32.640 --> 2:00:36.520 taken at a measured twenty yards. And then how many 2:00:38.360 --> 2:00:43.320 total shots wouldn't probably have five thousand and how many 2:00:43.360 --> 2:00:47.360 animals I don't know, never counted him. And but you 2:00:47.480 --> 2:00:50.440 had thirty minutes before Rigor would impact though you had 2:00:50.480 --> 2:00:52.920 about thirty minutes. Now in warm weather you might have 2:00:53.000 --> 2:00:55.480 a little bit more than that. But we we put 2:00:55.520 --> 2:00:57.320 it down in thirty minutes, and we stayed in thirty 2:00:57.320 --> 2:01:00.960 minutes because even in what we cool weather down there, 2:01:01.240 --> 2:01:06.600 because I went once in December, I'll never do it 2:01:06.640 --> 2:01:10.960 again to the Northern Territory of Australia. That was miserable. 2:01:11.720 --> 2:01:13.480 We know a Rigor Moore to specialists, if you ever 2:01:13.560 --> 2:01:16.920 want to talk to him, there you go University Nebraska. Yeah, 2:01:17.480 --> 2:01:22.920 Dr Chris Calkins, but he's picky about Caulkins or Calkins, Caulkins, 2:01:24.280 --> 2:01:27.520 rigor Moore to specialist. There you go. Yeah, well we 2:01:27.600 --> 2:01:30.360 did ours on the basis of okay, you know in 2:01:30.640 --> 2:01:33.720 the early days. Yeah, we get past this. Okay, we're 2:01:33.720 --> 2:01:37.200 seeing a difference in outcomes, so we gotta cut this 2:01:37.320 --> 2:01:41.440 off here these so these way this this didn't doesn't 2:01:41.480 --> 2:01:43.880 correlate with what we got before. Okay, what number were on? 2:01:45.280 --> 2:01:50.080 Where are we design? We should have done this interstitial 2:01:50.400 --> 2:01:56.120 thing idea? Yeah, dude, what we did was tip of 2:01:56.160 --> 2:02:01.640 design was I took a series of broadheads Dennick Lara setups. 2:02:02.560 --> 2:02:05.400 These are all single blade broadheads. Let's say the number again, 2:02:06.680 --> 2:02:10.120 what number number eleven? And what is it? Tip design tip? Okay, 2:02:10.160 --> 2:02:14.360 I'm sorry. And what we did was put different tip profiles, 2:02:15.960 --> 2:02:18.760 and we use seven different tip profiles because that goes 2:02:18.760 --> 2:02:23.320 against your whole mechanical advantage thing. Reason for that, we 2:02:23.440 --> 2:02:25.800 were looking at a number of things. He's holding up, 2:02:26.240 --> 2:02:28.840 he's looking at it. We're looking at a point that 2:02:28.920 --> 2:02:31.680 has a earlier what he would describe as a very 2:02:31.760 --> 2:02:35.320 high mechanical advantage angle profile or whatever the hell. But 2:02:35.360 --> 2:02:37.120 then it's got a little chisel point on it, like 2:02:38.640 --> 2:02:43.040 chisel is different. Name these things. What's that like knives? 2:02:43.120 --> 2:02:45.880 They call that what tanto? It's got a tanto point. 2:02:45.880 --> 2:02:48.520 It looks like two tanto points put back to back. 2:02:48.920 --> 2:02:51.200 So that's that's what it named. And that name is 2:02:51.240 --> 2:02:54.400 called on It just stuck through the years, Uh, just 2:02:54.440 --> 2:02:55.800 because I had to have something to call it when 2:02:55.840 --> 2:02:59.840 I was doing the testing. Um. But we tried all 2:02:59.880 --> 2:03:03.000 the different points, and we were looking at durability and 2:03:03.240 --> 2:03:07.760 skip angle. Now skip angle is a big important factor. 2:03:08.040 --> 2:03:11.160 The others like a skip like all hell, it doesn't. No, 2:03:11.840 --> 2:03:14.680 this actually was the best design of all at the 2:03:14.760 --> 2:03:18.920 lowest skip angle and the highest durability of all the 2:03:19.000 --> 2:03:22.240 ones we tested. Now, if you could get a needle 2:03:22.360 --> 2:03:27.920 tip that wouldn't damage, it might do as well. But 2:03:28.040 --> 2:03:31.560 I never could find one that didn't damage well the 2:03:31.560 --> 2:03:35.200 way until different materials come. Well, this this came by 2:03:35.280 --> 2:03:39.720 far the best, and we're one of the things gonna 2:03:39.760 --> 2:03:41.920 look at and I tried to determine it and we're 2:03:41.960 --> 2:03:43.480 gonna be able to find out with that high speed 2:03:43.600 --> 2:03:51.600 camera is I tried different sharpening profiles on this tanto tip. Uh, 2:03:53.280 --> 2:03:57.120 single bevel on the same side, single bevel on the 2:03:57.160 --> 2:04:01.520 opposite side, and double bevel, and I was never able 2:04:01.600 --> 2:04:05.080 to tell which one truly worked the best, particularly for 2:04:05.160 --> 2:04:10.280 skip angle. What is skip angle? Well, when the an 2:04:10.320 --> 2:04:15.879 airy hits the bone, most bones are designed to redirect forces. 2:04:15.960 --> 2:04:17.680 They're they're not only just hold the body up to 2:04:17.720 --> 2:04:22.760 protect the body, so they curve multiple directions. So it's 2:04:22.800 --> 2:04:25.040 pretty rare to be able to hit a bone square. 2:04:25.360 --> 2:04:27.960 It's one of the reasons the buffalo it's such a 2:04:28.080 --> 2:04:32.480 nice test ad because they have very broad, wide ribs, 2:04:32.920 --> 2:04:37.000 so you can almost get a square impact. Or like 2:04:37.200 --> 2:04:40.240 we did, you put a protractor out here, You take 2:04:40.280 --> 2:04:43.400 a string, you measure the angle, and you shoot at 2:04:43.960 --> 2:04:48.440 various So the skip angle describes the angle of the bone, 2:04:48.680 --> 2:04:51.800 not the angle of impact between the broad heads and 2:04:51.800 --> 2:04:56.240 the bone. Yes, and that's really important, like guys hung 2:04:56.320 --> 2:04:59.160 out tree stands and stuff, because now they're looking down 2:04:59.240 --> 2:05:03.200 at ribs and think of the curves that are involved. 2:05:04.160 --> 2:05:07.440 And it's not uncommon to hit one of those ribs 2:05:07.480 --> 2:05:11.040 and have the air actually right around the outside curve 2:05:11.920 --> 2:05:14.040 of those ribs and go into the ground. And a 2:05:14.120 --> 2:05:16.560 lot of people it happens so fast they think they've 2:05:16.560 --> 2:05:19.040 shot through. The animal in the air never got into 2:05:19.040 --> 2:05:21.000 the chest cabin. You just wanted the skin. I think 2:05:21.080 --> 2:05:24.520 people from eating beef ribs. You know, people get a 2:05:24.800 --> 2:05:26.600 wrong idea what a deer's rib looks like. When you 2:05:26.640 --> 2:05:29.200 actually take a deer's rib out, that's some bitches round. Yeah, 2:05:29.800 --> 2:05:32.720 it's not. It's not a flat face. Most ribs are 2:05:32.840 --> 2:05:36.520 that way. Yea. Yeah, the bigger the animal gets, the 2:05:36.560 --> 2:05:40.040 flatter the rib. Elephant ribbs got a big flat giraffe, 2:05:40.160 --> 2:05:45.480 big flat, hippo's big flat buffalo rude to smaller flat. 2:05:48.800 --> 2:05:52.720 It's pretty round. Yeah, the smaller the animal gets, the 2:05:52.800 --> 2:05:56.160 more round they are. Brown bears almost perfectly round, right, 2:05:56.440 --> 2:05:58.040 it's real round. I feel like this would be a 2:05:58.120 --> 2:06:01.640 good time to talk about bone busting arrow and whether 2:06:01.880 --> 2:06:05.520 it's a real thing or if it's a myth. One 2:06:05.680 --> 2:06:13.040 more and we'll do. Just didn't because the next thing 2:06:13.160 --> 2:06:18.680 coming up factor number twelve at the bottom of the list, 2:06:18.840 --> 2:06:22.080 because it's only important when you hit a heavy bone. 2:06:22.920 --> 2:06:26.160 Is an erraw mass or an arrow weight above the 2:06:26.320 --> 2:06:31.120 heavy bone threshold? Read that one of me again. It's 2:06:31.440 --> 2:06:33.400 arraw weight if you want to think of it that way, 2:06:33.920 --> 2:06:38.480 above the heavy bone threshold. Okay, that's gonna require a 2:06:38.520 --> 2:06:41.080 lot of explanation. It does, and Most people have it 2:06:41.280 --> 2:06:46.000 wrong because they read what's there and they see six 2:06:46.440 --> 2:06:50.440 fifty grains heavy bone threshold and they think, Okay, I 2:06:50.520 --> 2:06:54.480 got six grains air. It's gonna break heavy bone every time. Wrong. 2:06:55.920 --> 2:06:59.520 What we found is that every broadhead, doesn't matter how 2:06:59.640 --> 2:07:04.680 poor it is or how good it is, shows an increase, 2:07:04.760 --> 2:07:08.760 a marked increase in the bone breaching rate of heavy 2:07:08.800 --> 2:07:13.000 bone when the air and mass reaches right at the 2:07:13.080 --> 2:07:16.880 sifty grain, and it's literally within a few grains one 2:07:16.920 --> 2:07:19.680 way or the other of the six fifty. And it 2:07:19.760 --> 2:07:22.760 doesn't seem to vary whether you're shooting a compound or 2:07:22.800 --> 2:07:26.240 whether you're shooting a longboat or recurve with it. Very 2:07:26.280 --> 2:07:28.280 if you shot at at a hundred ft a second 2:07:28.360 --> 2:07:32.000 ort a second, not not much at all, doesn't seem 2:07:32.040 --> 2:07:35.320 to make any difference at all. Uh, when we've tried it, 2:07:35.360 --> 2:07:37.400 we're gonna do some more of it. It's some more 2:07:37.520 --> 2:07:41.600 verification of it, but at some point it should if 2:07:41.640 --> 2:07:46.520 we can get enough force, it should make a difference. 2:07:46.880 --> 2:07:53.160 But so far we don't have that. Um the basic premises, 2:07:53.560 --> 2:07:56.360 like we're talking about, the bones are there to protect 2:07:56.400 --> 2:08:00.200 the body, so they have all of these curves and 2:08:00.400 --> 2:08:04.360 bands but they also have articulations, so if they move, 2:08:05.240 --> 2:08:09.000 they also are flexible. They will flex. So when the 2:08:09.240 --> 2:08:13.040 error hits, it's got to push on this bone long 2:08:13.160 --> 2:08:16.080 enough to overcome the movement of the bone, the flexion 2:08:16.120 --> 2:08:18.400 of the bone before it ever starts to penetrate the bone. 2:08:20.320 --> 2:08:24.360 And that depends on how long it's able to push 2:08:25.400 --> 2:08:32.400 the impulse of force. And it's strictly weight related. So 2:08:32.600 --> 2:08:38.800 if you took a real poor broad head, took a 2:08:38.880 --> 2:08:43.200 muzzy bad to the bone, Yeah, it's bad to the bone, 2:08:43.240 --> 2:08:47.560 all right, Okay, it's it's it's going to have a 2:08:47.960 --> 2:08:53.160 pretty low penetration in heavy bone. It's not a great 2:08:53.160 --> 2:08:57.520 broad head for breaching heavy bone, and it might give 2:08:57.600 --> 2:09:03.920 you blow blow the heavy bone threshold. Get it above 2:09:03.960 --> 2:09:09.160 the heavy bone threshold, it might jump to. But you 2:09:09.280 --> 2:09:12.000 take the best broadheads, and it doesn't matter if the 2:09:12.160 --> 2:09:17.520 single bevel or double bevel. The best design broadheads good 2:09:17.600 --> 2:09:21.200 mechanical advantage two point six or higher seemed to be 2:09:21.280 --> 2:09:23.200 where the cutoff was on. There was the two point 2:09:23.280 --> 2:09:28.920 six uh bolow the heavy bone threshold. They might have 2:09:29.120 --> 2:09:34.280 a seven eight bone breaching right you hit the threshold, 2:09:37.920 --> 2:09:41.400 it is consistently and it doesn't matter if I shoot 2:09:41.440 --> 2:09:44.440 it with a forty pound re curve or shoot it 2:09:44.480 --> 2:09:49.960 with a compound. It worked. The foc of the ERA 2:09:50.840 --> 2:09:54.720 had no effect on heavy bone threshold strictly how long 2:09:54.840 --> 2:09:59.600 it was able to push on the bone. But once 2:09:59.680 --> 2:10:03.280 you can breach that bone, then the foc becomes really 2:10:03.360 --> 2:10:07.960 important because the post breaching penetration is going to depend 2:10:08.480 --> 2:10:10.800 on that foc because now that air is flying again. 2:10:11.120 --> 2:10:14.080 It's flying while it's putting on that bone too, but 2:10:14.160 --> 2:10:16.640 as it's also going to slow down the back of it. 2:10:16.720 --> 2:10:20.720 Wanta Flex FLC has a lot of that reduced impact 2:10:20.800 --> 2:10:23.480 paradox we were talking about. So it's gonna cut down 2:10:23.520 --> 2:10:26.600 the drag a lot once we breached that bone. But 2:10:27.120 --> 2:10:30.240 that's where the heavy bone threshold comes in. It does 2:10:30.320 --> 2:10:32.960 not mean that you can take a muzzy and put 2:10:33.000 --> 2:10:35.400 it on a six fifty grain ERA and go out 2:10:35.440 --> 2:10:41.880 and break health shoulders ain't gonna happen. But you put 2:10:42.000 --> 2:10:48.280 a good broadhead, quality steel, durable spit shine dropped home 2:10:49.400 --> 2:10:52.280 durable point on there. That's not gonna be skitting off 2:10:52.400 --> 2:10:59.720 bones everywhere. And yes, when we looked at the penetration 2:11:00.080 --> 2:11:05.879 sumized eras these were all uh e f O c eras. 2:11:06.800 --> 2:11:08.640 I don't think rae ultra is in there at all, 2:11:09.840 --> 2:11:13.400 and we're using several different bows. We had a hundred 2:11:13.560 --> 2:11:19.200 and nineties six hundred ninety six shots, eighteen percent of 2:11:19.280 --> 2:11:23.760 those with a forty pound bare formula silver recurve traveling 2:11:23.840 --> 2:11:27.080 at a velocity of a massive hundred and nineteen feet 2:11:27.160 --> 2:11:32.160 per second shot at twenty yards on buffalo, and go 2:11:32.240 --> 2:11:34.160 all the way up to eighty two pound bows. So 2:11:34.200 --> 2:11:36.320 we had we had the forty pound, we had a 2:11:36.360 --> 2:11:40.640 fifty four pound long bowl, we had a uh seventy pound, 2:11:40.920 --> 2:11:45.080 sixty four pound longbow, seventy pound long sixty two, sixty 2:11:45.080 --> 2:11:47.800 two pound longbow, seventy pound long bowl, and eighty two 2:11:47.880 --> 2:11:53.400 pound and all of these errors had a dent breaching 2:11:53.520 --> 2:12:00.800 rate hundred ninety six shots on trophy size consecutive consecutive 2:12:01.160 --> 2:12:06.280 trophy size buffalo. What bone this is the ribs, which 2:12:06.400 --> 2:12:11.960 is about eight inch eight tenths of an inch of 2:12:12.080 --> 2:12:15.560 pretty solid bone, so heavier than the scapul and the 2:12:15.600 --> 2:12:19.280 elk oh, yeah, heavier than the scapul on help absolutely, 2:12:21.080 --> 2:12:24.200 and all of these errors would have been every factor 2:12:24.360 --> 2:12:32.320 on there penetration maximized. Mm hmm Okay, let's do this 2:12:32.400 --> 2:12:39.200 real quick. What should what should folks be like? What 2:12:39.240 --> 2:12:43.320 should folks be using? Well, that depends on what they're 2:12:43.320 --> 2:12:46.920 willing to live with. Any factor you use, you think 2:12:46.960 --> 2:12:50.000 of these as a tool box. Any factor you put 2:12:50.040 --> 2:12:52.200 off that list and add to your error that you're 2:12:52.240 --> 2:12:56.560 currently using is going to improve the performance of that error. 2:12:56.560 --> 2:12:58.880 But what do you mean what they're willing to live with? Well, 2:12:59.000 --> 2:13:03.600 some people won't. They have this mindset that, oh, if 2:13:03.680 --> 2:13:07.240 I shoot a six fifth grain Era, my trajectory is 2:13:07.280 --> 2:13:09.520 just gonna boom if I shoot you hear it all 2:13:09.560 --> 2:13:12.080 the time. If I shoot an e fo c Era, 2:13:12.640 --> 2:13:14.960 he's just gonna go out their nose dive. It doesn't. 2:13:15.000 --> 2:13:18.200 It actually shoots flatter. If you take two errors that 2:13:18.320 --> 2:13:22.080 are the exact same except for the foc shot out 2:13:22.120 --> 2:13:25.440 of the same boat, the foc or ultra e fo 2:13:25.520 --> 2:13:29.240 c era is going to shoot flatter, so because it's 2:13:29.280 --> 2:13:32.120 conserving energy from the paradox coming off of the boat. Yeah, 2:13:32.160 --> 2:13:33.520 do you I mean, do you think it's fair to 2:13:33.600 --> 2:13:39.720 say that people's um that people are prioritizing target, their 2:13:39.760 --> 2:13:43.839 prioritizing target shooting over killing, their prioritizing hitting the animals, 2:13:43.920 --> 2:13:47.520 that are killing the animal, and the emphasis needs to 2:13:47.560 --> 2:13:52.480 be on killing the animal. And there is what we 2:13:52.560 --> 2:13:53.960 try to talk about, you know a little bit with 2:13:54.080 --> 2:13:56.440 some of the new stuff that we well, we've got 2:13:56.480 --> 2:13:59.000 a couple of the videos out now that that Darryl 2:13:59.080 --> 2:14:05.080 and Troy did. UH. The the parable of the shot, 2:14:06.040 --> 2:14:09.640 the lighter era as it goes out once it starts 2:14:09.680 --> 2:14:14.839 to lose velocity. The heavier era, even though it's slower, 2:14:15.520 --> 2:14:17.920 doesn't do that. It doesn't knows dive like that. It 2:14:18.040 --> 2:14:22.360 carries it on through. So as you get to these 2:14:22.480 --> 2:14:27.480 longer ranges, it actually carries It's not not the big 2:14:27.640 --> 2:14:30.640 drop that people are expecting when you get out there. 2:14:30.680 --> 2:14:33.880 And this is some actual data using those Doppler uh 2:14:34.280 --> 2:14:36.680 and you a whole series of tuned arras, all all 2:14:36.680 --> 2:14:39.960 these tuned to the bows. So so we're starting to 2:14:39.960 --> 2:14:42.920 collect the hard data on this that is it's not 2:14:43.120 --> 2:14:47.000 what people are thinking is. And the pin gaps, if 2:14:47.040 --> 2:14:49.160 you look at the pin gaps with the light eras 2:14:49.200 --> 2:14:51.680 they go like this like this, you get longer range, 2:14:51.720 --> 2:14:54.680 you get bigger and bigger pin gaps. With these heavy errors, 2:14:54.760 --> 2:14:57.880 you don't the pin gaps sticking system stay consistent all 2:14:57.880 --> 2:15:01.200 the way down because it's carrying that parable of the 2:15:01.400 --> 2:15:04.720 trajectory out better. You could probably explain this better than me, 2:15:05.320 --> 2:15:07.680 that my forte is from when it hitstilly gets out 2:15:07.720 --> 2:15:13.840 of them. So, uh, what would be like in your mind? Um, 2:15:15.000 --> 2:15:17.000 if you're just gonna throw something like hard and fasts, 2:15:18.160 --> 2:15:21.040 people should be thinking about if they're if they're focusing 2:15:21.080 --> 2:15:23.640 on killing the animal, they should be thinking about broadheads 2:15:23.640 --> 2:15:27.040 and the what they should be thinking about these factors 2:15:27.080 --> 2:15:30.240 and what they do to their air performance? And in 2:15:30.320 --> 2:15:34.440 the what grain weight? Well, myself sifty grains. I will 2:15:34.520 --> 2:15:37.480 not shoot an error below that in a game. And 2:15:37.560 --> 2:15:40.360 what weight broadhead? I try to get the highest f 2:15:41.080 --> 2:15:43.200 oc I can with the light of shaft. So I 2:15:43.360 --> 2:15:48.040 generally am using three grain plus broadheads on brass or 2:15:48.080 --> 2:15:51.520 steel inserts uh to get as much weight as it 2:15:51.560 --> 2:15:56.000 can up front, generally with sometimes with internal footing behind 2:15:56.120 --> 2:15:58.560 that in the shaft are a collar on the front, 2:15:59.240 --> 2:16:02.800 uh to you have the shaft not being driven in 2:16:04.040 --> 2:16:07.400 um and keep it from fracturing up front. Um, but 2:16:07.560 --> 2:16:10.400 I'm trying to put. What I'm trying to do is 2:16:10.440 --> 2:16:13.680 get as much weight into this little ball as I can. 2:16:14.760 --> 2:16:16.840 If you could make all the way to that era, 2:16:17.960 --> 2:16:25.920 a neutron side sucker penetrate to the tank wanted. Now 2:16:26.080 --> 2:16:30.920 neutron bombs do it. Yeah, it sounds like bo hunters 2:16:31.000 --> 2:16:34.040 need a science lesson. Well, a lot of it does 2:16:34.160 --> 2:16:36.960 because they've this stuff has been sold to them in 2:16:37.160 --> 2:16:45.440 magazines for the last seventy years. That all speed, speed, speed, light, fast, 2:16:46.040 --> 2:16:49.360 multiply broadheads, they cut bigger holes, they bleed more. Now. 2:16:49.480 --> 2:16:52.440 I tried doing I tried doing some blood trail data, 2:16:53.360 --> 2:16:55.680 and uh, with a set of animals, you don't get 2:16:55.720 --> 2:16:58.520 a lot of it. But if I had to put 2:16:58.560 --> 2:17:01.520 it down, the blood trail has no bearing on the 2:17:01.560 --> 2:17:04.920 broad heads you use. What's going to matter is where 2:17:05.000 --> 2:17:08.080 you hit that animal, what you hit inside that animal, 2:17:08.320 --> 2:17:10.080 Do you have an exit wound, and where does that 2:17:10.120 --> 2:17:13.400 exit moon to locate. If you've got a high entrance, 2:17:13.480 --> 2:17:15.920 high exit, you could have fifteen blades. You're gonna have 2:17:15.920 --> 2:17:19.000 a poor broad blood trail if you hit him in 2:17:19.040 --> 2:17:21.240 the back and it comes out his stern um. I 2:17:21.320 --> 2:17:23.160 don't care. If you're shooting a field point, you're gonna 2:17:23.160 --> 2:17:24.959 have a blood trailer. You know. That's interesting. I had 2:17:24.959 --> 2:17:27.480 a client once hit an elk with like a three 2:17:27.600 --> 2:17:30.360 thirty eight windmag I believe it was hit him high. 2:17:30.959 --> 2:17:33.200 Eventually we found him, but guess what we didn't have 2:17:34.640 --> 2:17:37.119 something happens with guns. Ye, not been of difference. All 2:17:37.160 --> 2:17:39.840 the bloods inside the cabin. How to fill up they're bleeding, 2:17:39.920 --> 2:17:41.640 but yeah, it takes a while to fill it. Like 2:17:41.800 --> 2:17:44.240 just cavity ups big. That's a big pot of blood. 2:17:44.959 --> 2:17:46.480 That blood is gonna collect in the air and it's 2:17:46.480 --> 2:17:50.480 gonna collapse lungs. So not only is he dive from 2:17:50.520 --> 2:17:52.840 ass of blood, but it's going to get the force 2:17:52.920 --> 2:17:56.400 harder and harder for him to travel. And that's what 2:17:56.480 --> 2:17:58.640 you're trying to do this when you want hopefully two 2:17:58.720 --> 2:18:01.720 holes through the lungs. If you can get that, then 2:18:01.920 --> 2:18:04.040 you get that numal thora actually start to collapse those 2:18:04.160 --> 2:18:09.920 lungs and he doesn't travel. As for all right, tell 2:18:09.920 --> 2:18:12.840 everybody how to find you, Well, you need to go 2:18:13.040 --> 2:18:18.040 to h Ashby Bow Hunting dot org. We are a 2:18:18.120 --> 2:18:22.119 five old, one c three nonprofit. None of the people 2:18:22.160 --> 2:18:25.640 are salary to. Everybody is a volunteer. That all the 2:18:25.760 --> 2:18:31.039 officers everything, and we'll take donations from individuals, won't take 2:18:31.080 --> 2:18:33.440 them from archery industry. Now, if somebody works in the 2:18:33.560 --> 2:18:37.240 archery industry and wants to donate as an individual, but 2:18:37.480 --> 2:18:41.720 it's not gonna buy any special access or special treatment 2:18:41.760 --> 2:18:44.480 in any way. And if you okay, and then just 2:18:44.600 --> 2:18:48.680 to get the so if you want to see so, 2:18:49.000 --> 2:18:53.560 so you guys at Grizzly Stick, make a point that 2:18:54.800 --> 2:18:57.920 is the closest like it's the closest manifestation of what 2:18:58.080 --> 2:19:01.520 you would argue to be the point we were talking 2:19:01.720 --> 2:19:05.240 last night. If if I'm picking a point to hunt 2:19:05.280 --> 2:19:08.560 with the day, there are only two. Now, there might 2:19:08.600 --> 2:19:11.320 be some others that haven't been tested yet, so I 2:19:11.320 --> 2:19:14.520 don't want to rule them out, but ones that have 2:19:14.640 --> 2:19:16.640 been tested thoroughly that I know work, is only two 2:19:16.720 --> 2:19:19.640 that I would use. One is the astuty broad head, 2:19:19.680 --> 2:19:22.600 which looks just about like that, and the other one, 2:19:22.879 --> 2:19:27.320 uh is the tough head, the three gin tough head, 2:19:27.600 --> 2:19:32.640 the original one. And because those work. Now, I did 2:19:32.680 --> 2:19:35.360 a lot of testing with very narrow broad heads where 2:19:35.400 --> 2:19:38.520 I were taking these and working them down, uh to 2:19:38.640 --> 2:19:41.360 well blow an inch diameter because you've got a lot 2:19:41.400 --> 2:19:43.280 of loss to say, you gotta have an inch diameter 2:19:43.400 --> 2:19:45.840 broad head or inch and an eighth or something like 2:19:45.959 --> 2:19:50.360 that in various places works just fine. It kills buffalo, 2:19:50.879 --> 2:19:55.039 it'll kill white tails. Can't necessarily go the other way around. 2:19:56.879 --> 2:19:58.720 You know, people missed that thing. You know, Like I said, 2:19:58.760 --> 2:20:01.240 I like to carry one an era. I don't care 2:20:01.280 --> 2:20:03.880 what I encounter. I'm ready to shooting. Uh. Do you 2:20:03.920 --> 2:20:06.760 guys get any donations. We're just really getting started with 2:20:06.840 --> 2:20:09.120 him coming in, but we're getting some coming in. And 2:20:09.320 --> 2:20:12.800 we're in the process now of doing some grant requests 2:20:12.920 --> 2:20:15.880 from you know, like Dallas far Club and people like that. 2:20:16.959 --> 2:20:19.200 And uh. And you don't feel like that's gonna you 2:20:19.240 --> 2:20:24.000 don't feel that's gonna lead to industry manipulation. It's gonna 2:20:24.040 --> 2:20:25.320 have to be it's gonna have to be a grant 2:20:25.440 --> 2:20:30.320 and no strings attached period. God, if they're strings attached, 2:20:30.400 --> 2:20:33.800 we ain't doing it. We've had some people in the 2:20:33.920 --> 2:20:38.879 archery industry want to donate, and no, not like those 2:20:38.920 --> 2:20:41.840 guys the tobacco industry hires and show the tobacco good 2:20:41.879 --> 2:20:46.840 for you, all right, ask me Bow Hunting Foundation. Yes, 2:20:48.040 --> 2:20:50.920 go to it, look at it. Donate if you want 2:20:51.040 --> 2:20:54.040 to find out, if you want to support research that 2:20:54.240 --> 2:20:57.960 finds out what really works, what doesn't work, and and 2:20:58.120 --> 2:21:01.000 what the money goes for, Like senators. No salaries involved. 2:21:01.440 --> 2:21:03.760 Is buying the equipment. Why we're buying this high speed camera? 2:21:03.879 --> 2:21:08.320 We bought this, brought these doctor radar chronographs. Do you 2:21:08.360 --> 2:21:10.280 do Q and as with people like if they go like, hey, 2:21:10.400 --> 2:21:12.960 what about this? Do you reply to him? Oh? Yeah, 2:21:13.280 --> 2:21:14.959 We've got a place in there that they can ask 2:21:15.080 --> 2:21:18.160 questions and and we'll give me answers, you know what 2:21:18.320 --> 2:21:20.520 answer we can give them. And the guys volunteer a 2:21:20.560 --> 2:21:23.920 lot of time. They uh, they build even to the 2:21:24.000 --> 2:21:27.640 point of building up air setups for people, Um you 2:21:27.720 --> 2:21:29.960 know that that are going hunt a cape buffalo or 2:21:30.000 --> 2:21:32.840 something and I've never done him. Um. So they actually 2:21:32.840 --> 2:21:35.800 do a hand a lot of hands on for individuals 2:21:36.080 --> 2:21:40.920 and it's called ask ashpy but but it's it's it's 2:21:41.040 --> 2:21:43.720 routed to whichever one of us on the board is 2:21:44.640 --> 2:21:47.560 is most qualified nanswer, cause my hands are getting where 2:21:47.560 --> 2:21:50.199 I can hardly do anything with them. If they can answer, 2:21:50.360 --> 2:21:54.440 they answer. If they can, it comes to me, got it? 2:21:54.879 --> 2:21:56.560 And if I can't answer it, I tell them I 2:21:56.760 --> 2:22:00.520 don't know. You know, that's we're doing testing. Owner are Hey, 2:22:00.600 --> 2:22:02.200 that's something we're gonna add to the testing. That's a 2:22:02.240 --> 2:22:06.600 good idea, you know, they're just stuff, you know, people 2:22:06.600 --> 2:22:08.600 are good about doing that, and and we have become 2:22:08.680 --> 2:22:11.480 involved with one of the big things with Texas Parks 2:22:11.520 --> 2:22:14.680 and Wildlife. We're affiliated with them, so we put on 2:22:14.879 --> 2:22:21.040 programs teaching this type stuff to the Bowl Hunter Education instructors, 2:22:22.200 --> 2:22:26.240 so we trained them in that and UH we worked 2:22:26.320 --> 2:22:30.160 with FAZA, the Professional Hunter Association of South Africa and 2:22:30.680 --> 2:22:34.520 the one in the media also and we're trying to 2:22:34.600 --> 2:22:39.440 set up one in Zambia. Working with that, we supplied 2:22:39.440 --> 2:22:41.840 a lot of information that went over to Russia where 2:22:41.840 --> 2:22:46.800 they illegalized winning last year UH and looking at Germany, 2:22:46.879 --> 2:22:48.800 looking to some other places that were trying to system 2:22:48.840 --> 2:22:53.600 with information the data we have Botswana and so we're 2:22:53.600 --> 2:22:55.960 trying to you know, reach out that way. So we 2:22:56.040 --> 2:22:58.880 not only try to work with government agencies and just 2:22:59.640 --> 2:23:03.240 Reese well, we sent out letters to every state fishing 2:23:03.280 --> 2:23:05.880 Game department telling them what we're doing with Texas Parks 2:23:05.920 --> 2:23:09.520 and Wildlife and seeing if we can assist they mean, 2:23:09.560 --> 2:23:11.240 we've had replies back from I don't know what two 2:23:11.280 --> 2:23:13.240 or three or four. You know, there's just not a 2:23:13.320 --> 2:23:15.920 lot of people that have information for those guys that 2:23:16.000 --> 2:23:18.360 want to go out and educate people and so when 2:23:18.400 --> 2:23:21.360 we've been able to supply that information for them, they've 2:23:21.440 --> 2:23:23.920 been starving for it. Almost seems like a lot of 2:23:23.959 --> 2:23:26.879 the guys and just they're looking for ways to better 2:23:27.240 --> 2:23:29.440 educate their students when they're going through this the house 2:23:29.480 --> 2:23:34.320 and wives of what's going on site them. Thanks Doc, appreciated, welcome, 2:23:35.920 --> 2:23:41.160 asked bow Hunt and Foundation. Check them out, donate, senate donation, 2:23:42.040 --> 2:23:42.440 everybody