Speaker 1: This is me Eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely
Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You
Speaker 1: can't predict anything presented by first, like creating proven versatile
Speaker 1: hunting apparel from Marino Bass layers to technical outerwear for
Speaker 1: every hunt. First like go farther, stay longer. Okay, we're
Speaker 1: recording remotely right now from Kerrville, Texas in a hotel
Speaker 1: thing like a very bland stale hotel meeting room with
Speaker 1: the not very bland at all, highly esteemed Dr ed
Speaker 1: Ashby from the Ashby Bow Hunting Foundation, who is um
Speaker 1: developed lifelong expertise and arrow and broadhead technology. But before
Speaker 1: we get to him, we got to talk with with
Speaker 1: our buddy, Jason Phelps has been on the show a
Speaker 1: bunch of times, including some of our most popular episodes
Speaker 1: ever when he comes down and explains, uh, what elk
Speaker 1: are saying when they make noises? How to mimic those noises?
Speaker 1: And of course you know from Phelps game calls, and
Speaker 1: you know what, Yannie, what was the uh? Um? Tell
Speaker 1: people go how to find that hunt you did with
Speaker 1: you and Phelps the YouTube hunt. You can go to
Speaker 1: meat EAT's YouTube page and uh find the latest season
Speaker 1: of meat Eator Hunts and uh, it's the first two episodes,
Speaker 1: Part one and part two when I was stunting pelts.
Speaker 1: He's all nervous. He keeps watching to make sure you're
Speaker 1: ELK episode out in view metrics. He doesn't want it
Speaker 1: to get it's I guess it's like neck and neck
Speaker 1: between your metator Hunt's meal your episode and you meet
Speaker 1: your Hunts elk episode. He wants that one to be
Speaker 1: number one. Yeah, he's got real strong opinions about why
Speaker 1: I should be number one. And he thinks squirrel hunting stupid.
Speaker 1: So if you make a scroll hunting one and it
Speaker 1: whoops that one, I've got one plan for this fall,
Speaker 1: So get ready, Jason. Okay, So Jay's felts Uh why
Speaker 1: He's like, what's wrong with plastic vehagle tubes? Why? Why
Speaker 1: did you want to mess around an aluminum vegle tube? Yeah? Up,
Speaker 1: un to this point, we had all relied on plastic
Speaker 1: um to try to get a high pitched um you know,
Speaker 1: those better familiar with oak vocalizations, like a bowl vehagle
Speaker 1: gets to a very very high frequency um up around
Speaker 1: like hers. And we've always used plastic and harder plastics
Speaker 1: to try to get there. Uh, And so the idea
Speaker 1: came about where, well, if we used an aluminum um material,
Speaker 1: we would able to be able to get to that
Speaker 1: frequency um maybe better than plastic um would get there.
Speaker 1: So nobody had used it. And then the idea of
Speaker 1: trying to solve a problem that we had with plastic
Speaker 1: vehagle tubes. The other thing that it did in a
Speaker 1: roundabout way by being able to get to a higher pitch,
Speaker 1: we were able to put like a near premaus on it,
Speaker 1: which fixes another issue of bigger plastic tubes. UM. They're
Speaker 1: extremely noisy as you walk through the woods, if you
Speaker 1: hit a tree, if you hit brush, as they dragged
Speaker 1: through the brush. So by putting the neoprenus sleeve on
Speaker 1: the aluminum, we were able to kind of make a
Speaker 1: hybrid system that solves a couple of issues. We can
Speaker 1: maintain the high note, keep it quiet um. The end
Speaker 1: result is a very very loud vehicle tube, louder than
Speaker 1: I can be on my plastic tube. So it is
Speaker 1: an effective tool in the woods where you know, I
Speaker 1: got a better chance at getting a response from a
Speaker 1: bowl at a further distance. And then we had one
Speaker 1: shot we've been also working on attachments called the easy
Speaker 1: vehgler mouth piece and the flared mouth piece, and we
Speaker 1: didn't have the right system to attach those two and
Speaker 1: so during this aluminum design process, UH, we were able
Speaker 1: to design it to accept these attachments, UM, which will
Speaker 1: really assist people that can't put a diaphragm in their
Speaker 1: mouth to be able to steal bogle and be effective
Speaker 1: out in the woods. And so another thing about the
Speaker 1: metal vehicle tubes, it comes with like a mouth piece
Speaker 1: that which you call the easy bagleer mouth piece, which
Speaker 1: you make clear is for people that don't want to have, like,
Speaker 1: don't like to have a diaphragm calling her mouth. Can't
Speaker 1: make a diaphragm calling her mouth? Yeah, so right now,
Speaker 1: and you know the best way to bagle is to
Speaker 1: put an internal diaphragm which consists of a piece of latex,
Speaker 1: a frame and some tape to seal the call off
Speaker 1: in your mouth. And we create our vehicles to that. UM.
Speaker 1: One thing we've noticed over a lot of time, UM
Speaker 1: talking with a lot of customers, you know, gag reflexes.
Speaker 1: People that just can't figure out, UM how to run
Speaker 1: the call. Their mouths don't work right, you know, on
Speaker 1: and on there are reasons why people can't run a diaphragm,
Speaker 1: and so what we design is we've taken our very
Speaker 1: very popular ant diaphragm, taking the tape off and then
Speaker 1: created a seal inside of an external attachment and all
Speaker 1: you have to do is put your bottom lip over
Speaker 1: the small air opening and blow. Uh. There is a
Speaker 1: little bit of of skill involved, but it's it's you know,
Speaker 1: at ten percent of being able to run an internal diaphragm.
Speaker 1: You literally just have to put your lip over the
Speaker 1: bottom of whole, apply you know, different pressures, and blow
Speaker 1: through it to achieve in a bold bagle. So it's
Speaker 1: very easy and it solves a lot of issues that
Speaker 1: people have it running a diaphragm. So I want you
Speaker 1: to compare what these different things sound like. So take
Speaker 1: one of your regular diaphragms and hold it up to
Speaker 1: the aluminum bagle tube and rip right, and then go
Speaker 1: ahead and crank one out with the mouthpiece and maybe
Speaker 1: do whatever back and forth, you know, so people can
Speaker 1: hear the difference between what they're what you're getting with
Speaker 1: a diaphragm and what you're getting with the easy beagle
Speaker 1: or mouthpiece. Which you really just like kind of put
Speaker 1: your mouth over and and blow. Yeah. So we've taken
Speaker 1: the this tube had the easy bogle are on it,
Speaker 1: so we've switched over to the flared detachment, which is
Speaker 1: meant for diaphragm colors, and we'll give it a little go. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a diat it. It's got great back pressure, it's
Speaker 1: easy to run, and it's got great sound. So we
Speaker 1: just went ahead and took the flared mouthpiece off, snap
Speaker 1: the easy Bugler on, and we'll give it a give
Speaker 1: it a go. So one thing I can tell by
Speaker 1: blowing it in my office here versus the first one,
Speaker 1: and you may not be able to tell since we're
Speaker 1: going over the phone Steve, is that this is extremely loud.
Speaker 1: Um not easy Bugler was. I don't know if it's louder,
Speaker 1: but it's definitely louder, and it's it's it's evident by
Speaker 1: what my ears are feeling right now that that easy
Speaker 1: Bugler is louder. And I'm allowed diaphragm color, but I
Speaker 1: cannot get the same volume out of a diaphragm as
Speaker 1: I can that easy Bugler mouth piece. So, like I
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, I don't want to be a broken record,
Speaker 1: but it's got some good utility out in the woods.
Speaker 1: Or an Elk hunner trying to get something to respond. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a like there's a market difference in the volume
Speaker 1: and how well it carries. So you're either gonna Elk
Speaker 1: are gonna hear better, other dudes are gonna know you're
Speaker 1: there and move away. Either way, it's win win, all right, man, Um,
Speaker 1: we will talk to Jason Susan take our Yeah, thanks
Speaker 1: for having me. You guys have fun in Texas and
Speaker 1: we'll see you guys soon. Doctor ed Ashby big time
Speaker 1: researcher and arrows and broadheads Wow Ashby Bowl Hunt Foundation. Right,
Speaker 1: but now you don't have a doctor in that. You
Speaker 1: got a doctor at eyeballs. Yep, that's it, that's all right.
Speaker 1: The military doctor. I was in the military yep. Spent
Speaker 1: uh almost ten years in the Air Force and changed
Speaker 1: over the Public Health Service. Worked out on the Indian
Speaker 1: reservations for a number of years. That was in the
Speaker 1: area office covered seven states up in Minnesota, that area
Speaker 1: up in there, and then it ran the eye care
Speaker 1: program nationwide for the Federal Bureau or Prisons. In my
Speaker 1: last four years, so I did twenty six years with
Speaker 1: the government, long enough, and then you went off to Africa.
Speaker 1: I retire, liquidated everything I had in the States, moved
Speaker 1: to Africa, got it and got into the Then he
Speaker 1: got into the broad heads and arrows. But I actually
Speaker 1: I was doing stuff like that long before uh. I
Speaker 1: got involved with the Tall study back in eighty four.
Speaker 1: And uh by pure accident, pure good luck. Good luck
Speaker 1: has seemed to follow me the whole time I was.
Speaker 1: I had written over trying to see if I could
Speaker 1: uh hunter rhino with bowing era and no, it wasn't legal,
Speaker 1: couldn't couldn't do it. And then what gave you the
Speaker 1: idea that you should have should have to even ask
Speaker 1: somebody to if you could shoot a rhino with a
Speaker 1: born arrow? Or who did you write to? Well? I
Speaker 1: wrote to the game department there in South Africa asking
Speaker 1: about him. And then when they decided they wanted to
Speaker 1: look at archery and see about legalizing it. Uh, they're
Speaker 1: in the Tall Province. They were having an eating sitting
Speaker 1: around talking about, you know, how they were gonna set
Speaker 1: this up, how they were going to do it, what
Speaker 1: animals are going to shoot? And they got talking about
Speaker 1: the big animals. What you know, how big an animal
Speaker 1: could you take? And stuff? And somebody there and I
Speaker 1: still don't know which. One of them said, you know,
Speaker 1: somebody wrote me to three years ago, uh, asking about
Speaker 1: hunting a rhino. So I think I've still got the letter.
Speaker 1: Went and looked in their files. They did contacted me,
Speaker 1: said you still want to come try to shoot the
Speaker 1: rhino with boring air. Told me about ten seconds to
Speaker 1: say yes, and uh, so you know we set that up.
Speaker 1: I went over, I did the rhino hunt while I
Speaker 1: was there and talking to him and stuff. It's got
Speaker 1: a few other animals on that trip. Uh. They said, Look,
Speaker 1: I said, this is what we're doing, and we're looking
Speaker 1: at if we want to legalize this. So would you
Speaker 1: like to come back next year? So let's repeat the
Speaker 1: rhino and then you bring as many different broadheads as
Speaker 1: you can lay your hands on, and we'll go into
Speaker 1: Maccouzi Park and before the Rifle Cup, we have to
Speaker 1: cull animals every year and we will shoot as many
Speaker 1: animals as we can shoot. And we want to, you know,
Speaker 1: take a look at the effectiveness and what we turned
Speaker 1: out and doing is they literally wanted to take any
Speaker 1: shot that we thought we could make because they wanted
Speaker 1: to look at what happened when you made bad shots
Speaker 1: with different arraw set ups and so forth. And so
Speaker 1: we went in there and I think you shot a
Speaker 1: hundred fifty four animals in thirty days in Maccuzi. Uh.
Speaker 1: But we were backed up with a rifle for that,
Speaker 1: so that if you shot an animal and you weren't
Speaker 1: sure it was gonna be a lethal head, they would
Speaker 1: put it down with a rifle immediately somewhere remote from
Speaker 1: where the era was, so that we could dissect the
Speaker 1: animal and look and see what the air had done,
Speaker 1: make a determination would it have been lethal? Would it not? Um?
Speaker 1: You know what happened? Why was it not lethal? Um?
Speaker 1: And if we couldn't determine, they had a couple of
Speaker 1: veteranarians on staff that we could take the animal back
Speaker 1: into their shed. There the veteranarians were dissect them and
Speaker 1: tell us exactly what they found if, you know, and
Speaker 1: make a determination would it have been a lethal hit,
Speaker 1: would have not? It was rather interesting experiment. Uh. It's
Speaker 1: rare to get an opportunity to do that. All the
Speaker 1: later research we had to do on freshly cold animals,
Speaker 1: but all of that initial was done live animals, and
Speaker 1: most of it was on Oh, we did a few
Speaker 1: zebra and kudo and in y'alla, in Paula ward hogs.
Speaker 1: Most of the initial study was done on smaller animals
Speaker 1: other than the rhinos. And uh, what haven't you shot
Speaker 1: at the rhino? They died? How quick? Uh? They were
Speaker 1: a pretty good distance. The first one probably covered I
Speaker 1: would say it probably at least a half mile. But
Speaker 1: we have much better air setups now than we had then.
Speaker 1: Then I'm working with no knowledge of of what's gonna
Speaker 1: make the most effective ERA set up. All I could
Speaker 1: go on was a little bit of historical data. There
Speaker 1: wasn't and nobody had shot a white rhino. He's twice
Speaker 1: as big as a black rhino. He's six thousand pounds
Speaker 1: instead of three thousand. Uh. There had been a couple
Speaker 1: of people shoot black rhinos. Um. Bill Nagley had shot one,
Speaker 1: and Bob swine Hardy shot one. Uh. And of course
Speaker 1: Howard Hill didn't do a rhino, but he'd done the
Speaker 1: elephant and stuff like that. So I had to draw
Speaker 1: on what I could find in their writings to try
Speaker 1: to devise an error. And uh, um, I actually designed
Speaker 1: a different era for the second time around. It was
Speaker 1: one era hill and it went a little bit further.
Speaker 1: It was a rather exciting story on him because I
Speaker 1: shot him from from six ft away seven feet give
Speaker 1: me away from my footprints to his with no rifle
Speaker 1: back up. And so it was and that's the only
Speaker 1: animal that's ever shaking me up. After it was over,
Speaker 1: what was going on, as calms could be. After I
Speaker 1: shot him, I shook like a leaf. Didn't know where
Speaker 1: you were standing there. Well, it was an old bull
Speaker 1: that had actually been d hornedy. Is actually bigger than
Speaker 1: the first rhino, which was huge. Uh. It lived in
Speaker 1: this one valley and said we were trying to take
Speaker 1: off one of these old bulls but no longer breed.
Speaker 1: And every time we would see him he would go
Speaker 1: out and he'd go through this mountain pass. Well, we'd
Speaker 1: gone out that morning. We dropped all the trackers off
Speaker 1: on fresh tracks to gold look and see what kind
Speaker 1: of rhino it was and which rhino it was. Uh,
Speaker 1: see if it's one, we're going to go after night
Speaker 1: and there was just Chris Freeman and I left. He's
Speaker 1: one of the game Game War game rangers there and uh,
Speaker 1: we came to that big basin and looked there was
Speaker 1: that bull down there again. And Chris said, okay, now
Speaker 1: he's done this to us several times, said, I'll give
Speaker 1: you forty five minutes. Associated you go around to that
Speaker 1: that cut he's going out in, you'll probably got the
Speaker 1: same way. Then I'll try to stalk him real slow
Speaker 1: and easy, just like we have and and he'll probably
Speaker 1: push right out through there. And I did. So I
Speaker 1: went up to that draw and it kept getting there,
Speaker 1: and there in this real steep bank, like sixty degree
Speaker 1: on both sides, and as you got it right up
Speaker 1: to the end of it, it opened up into a
Speaker 1: big white area. But they're at the end of it.
Speaker 1: There's two trails. There's one that's about three ft up
Speaker 1: on the side and one down in the bottom. And
Speaker 1: I look and all the tracks are on the bottom.
Speaker 1: So I said, well, there's nowhere where else to go.
Speaker 1: I gotta stand on this upper track. And so I
Speaker 1: get up standing there and I'm waiting and waiting pretty
Speaker 1: soon and hear rocks rolling, rocks kicking. I'm sitting there
Speaker 1: and I'm all ready and I cut my eyes around
Speaker 1: and he's about twenty yards from me. On the upper
Speaker 1: trail and he comes on and he gets about fifteen
Speaker 1: yards or so from me, and he drops down to
Speaker 1: the lower trail to come out, and he walks by
Speaker 1: me as closest across this table. And because they're big,
Speaker 1: you know, he's more than six and a half feet
Speaker 1: at the shoulder. So we're right there together, and I
Speaker 1: got nowhere to go. You know, there's I can't climb
Speaker 1: this bank, can't run out that way, can't run that way.
Speaker 1: And as a rhino, sorry, I don't even know, as
Speaker 1: a rhino known to like cause problems with humans, like
Speaker 1: oh yeah, oh yeah, they killed several people there, yes,
Speaker 1: there where we were hunting. They had they had killed
Speaker 1: several including one of the game rangers had been killed
Speaker 1: by one stomping on him, goring him, stomping on him.
Speaker 1: Most of they just hitch you and toss you around
Speaker 1: a little, which is enough, you know, can can you?
Speaker 1: I want to also want to back way up and
Speaker 1: talk about when you were a kid, But um, before
Speaker 1: I do that, you mentioned and being de horned. At
Speaker 1: some point someone tranquilized them and cut can you can
Speaker 1: you explain what you're explaining to me last night when
Speaker 1: we're having dinner about the deal with the deal with
Speaker 1: rhinos that can't breed. Yeah, the whole thing with rhinos
Speaker 1: is that they will live. The bulls will live uh
Speaker 1: way past their breeding age, but they will hold a territory. Now,
Speaker 1: years ago, when there was all of Africa to rom
Speaker 1: there's no problem bush, I'll find new territory. But now
Speaker 1: there's people everywhere, a little islands of animals scattered around Africa,
Speaker 1: so they have a limited habitat. So unless you go
Speaker 1: take these old bulls off, the younger bulls can't establish
Speaker 1: a territory. If they have no territory, they will not breede.
Speaker 1: Territory pretty big, so they have to have a lot
Speaker 1: of area. And as long as that dominant bull is
Speaker 1: holding the territory, nobody gets to breathe. If he's past
Speaker 1: his breeding age, does he still think he can breede?
Speaker 1: He's just shooting blanks or no, Yeah he should be.
Speaker 1: He's still shooting blanks. Yeah, he's he's now sterile at
Speaker 1: him and he will live another ten or twelve years
Speaker 1: holding that territory. So no breeding is going to go
Speaker 1: on in that territory that he controls. So one way
Speaker 1: around that has cut his horn off and he can't
Speaker 1: defend it as well. Uh No, they cut it off.
Speaker 1: They cut the horns off. Keep the poachers from killing
Speaker 1: him doesn't work. The poachers will kill him for nub
Speaker 1: of a horn. You have to keep cutting it off,
Speaker 1: just right down to skin level. And even if it's
Speaker 1: cut down the skin level, they followed up, find a
Speaker 1: d hornman, they shoot it so they never ever have
Speaker 1: to track it again. Yeah, So the poachers are a
Speaker 1: major problem, and that's one of the nice things with
Speaker 1: the hunting programming there is that the rhinos are so
Speaker 1: expensive to hunt. They have a huge monetary value. So
Speaker 1: that monetary value is both to the people that are
Speaker 1: on the land because a portion of that money if
Speaker 1: you're hunting on one of the camp fire areas something
Speaker 1: like that, it's going to the local population, and of
Speaker 1: course the meat's gonna all go to them too, Or
Speaker 1: if it's a private landowner, which a lot of them
Speaker 1: are on private ranches and so forth, it's a huge
Speaker 1: amount of money to him. So they actually hire game
Speaker 1: scouts out of their own pocket to go out and
Speaker 1: try to keep the poachers under control. But if that
Speaker 1: animal didn't have that economic value, they're not gonna lay
Speaker 1: out all that money to hire game scouts to go
Speaker 1: out and try to control the poachers. You've you've eaten
Speaker 1: rhino and hippopotamus, and yeah, does all look like dear meat? Like,
Speaker 1: what's it looks like? No? Actually, the the white rhino
Speaker 1: is a grazer. He eats only grass, and uh and
Speaker 1: the hippo same thing. They're they're both grazers and it's
Speaker 1: very much like a range beef, grass fed beef. It's
Speaker 1: very very similar meat and excellent meat, excellent eating. Uh.
Speaker 1: You also mentioned I stay with that. We were talking
Speaker 1: about bullfrog hunting. Yeah, and you said you grew up
Speaker 1: poor hunted for me? What was that all about? Like,
Speaker 1: what were the circumstances and you're growing up? Well, you know,
Speaker 1: my brother and I we we just thought it was
Speaker 1: great fun. But uh, we were basically feeding the family
Speaker 1: and you just didn't realize it. So we hunted all
Speaker 1: the time, and uh dad was he was an r
Speaker 1: rifle instructor and so we you know, I shot competition
Speaker 1: in my first match when I was five years old,
Speaker 1: and he used to when we were small. And I've
Speaker 1: actually still got the twenty two five twenty one t
Speaker 1: Remington's real small little match rifle. Uh. He gives us
Speaker 1: one shell and you go out. If you kill something,
Speaker 1: bring it back in and have another shell. You can
Speaker 1: hunt all day. The first time you miss your through
Speaker 1: for today, you can go back tomorrow start all over again.
Speaker 1: What would you guys hunt for anything that moved? Uh?
Speaker 1: Where where was that? Where did you go? East Texas?
Speaker 1: East Texas? Ye? Yep? And you and you started in
Speaker 1: on bow hunt early. Yeah really, I mean like both
Speaker 1: early in terms of your age, but also early in
Speaker 1: terms of oh yeah, bo hunt. My dad always talked like,
Speaker 1: you know, he started bowl hunting in the fifties, you know,
Speaker 1: and there weren't even both seasons and stuff. Yeah, there weren't.
Speaker 1: There weren't any special both seasons early on. And there
Speaker 1: were only two of us in the whole county that
Speaker 1: uh they shot a bow many and the guy enterup
Speaker 1: hunting with he was a World War two that named
Speaker 1: James Hayes. And uh, we could shoot a bull frog
Speaker 1: and get a picture on front page of the paper.
Speaker 1: I mean big picture. It's a big time and because
Speaker 1: people are just unfamiliar with it. Oh yeah, and we
Speaker 1: did a lot of armor calling and stuff, and uh
Speaker 1: James shot a bobcat one night, and lord, it took
Speaker 1: up the whole front of the front page of the
Speaker 1: paper stories about because a lot of people didn't know
Speaker 1: we had bobcasts in these Texas. So it was great fun.
Speaker 1: And then uh, we'd come down and we deer hunt.
Speaker 1: And then when they did get a deer season going, Um,
Speaker 1: Bob Lee had a lease that he established the first
Speaker 1: bow hunting only lease in Texas if Wheelock, and we
Speaker 1: hunted on that lease there with with Bob Lee. When
Speaker 1: we see the first establishment, they were like the first
Speaker 1: guys that thought to go pay for hunting excess. No, no,
Speaker 1: people paid before that. But it was a lot cheaper
Speaker 1: than it is now. I mean when I was because
Speaker 1: you could go back in time and and and rubbed
Speaker 1: that guy out. Yeah, when I was about maybe it
Speaker 1: would never become a thing. Yeah, seven or eight years old.
Speaker 1: We would come down to this area Rock Springs, Lanto,
Speaker 1: Marble Falls all through there. Our lease year round lease
Speaker 1: was ten dollars. So we'd come down, we'd fished, we
Speaker 1: squirrel hunt, we turkey hunt, so that that was a
Speaker 1: whole year round lease was ten dollars. Uh, So it's
Speaker 1: changed a good bit. Now. Even back then, were you
Speaker 1: interested in uh? I mean, I'm sure you were interested,
Speaker 1: But when when did you first start getting interesting like
Speaker 1: tinkering with well, I'm taking with Archer equipment. Oh what
Speaker 1: really got me interested in it was when Howard Hall
Speaker 1: made the movie Timber. He toured the United States doing
Speaker 1: going to schools, doing shooting exhibitions to let people know
Speaker 1: there's the movie in town. And I got to see
Speaker 1: Howard Hills shoot and uh, things that wouldn't let you
Speaker 1: do now, you know. We're all on the auditorium there,
Speaker 1: and and the opening thing was the targets up on
Speaker 1: the stage and he comes through the doors the back
Speaker 1: and shooting airs over everybody's head into the target up
Speaker 1: on stage. And that was back in the day where
Speaker 1: he'd have assistance, you know, whole stuff and shoot it
Speaker 1: out of their hands and put it on the head
Speaker 1: and shoot it off their head. So they would go
Speaker 1: nuts for stuff like that. Now, wasn't it Burrows? William?
Speaker 1: Was it William Burrows that shot his wife trying to
Speaker 1: shoot Apple's off her head? Oh goodness, I do not
Speaker 1: now know. Tropical tropic of cancer and tropic capricorn author,
Speaker 1: wasn't that hill they got the drink in one night?
Speaker 1: H So that guy like his big deal was he
Speaker 1: went he was the first guy to shoot up I
Speaker 1: don't know about the first see that's the weird part
Speaker 1: about it, Like the first guy to shoot an elephant
Speaker 1: with a bow. But there's research now that suggests that
Speaker 1: the bowl had been invented. Oh perhaps you know, I
Speaker 1: know they say the bow and arrow was invented multiple
Speaker 1: times around the world, correct, like independently, but perhaps away
Speaker 1: long time agoing after was somebody probably killed some yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and you do have you know tribes there uh in
Speaker 1: East Africa that like the Hogsa and so forth, uh
Speaker 1: As they hunt with poison eras. But historically there's four
Speaker 1: back of people to remember, uh. They would build these
Speaker 1: deep cuts into the banks going down to the rivers
Speaker 1: so that hippo and elephant could go down there and
Speaker 1: they could stand above of them and shoot them as
Speaker 1: they came through these cuts. And and who knows how
Speaker 1: far backs that goes. And with poison arrors, it's poison
Speaker 1: arrors sometimes you know, it might take them forty eight
Speaker 1: hours to die, but they fought just following the animals.
Speaker 1: He dies Yeah, there's an old documentary I've seen. You've
Speaker 1: probably seen it where these these boys go out and
Speaker 1: uh stick a draft with a poison arrow. And the
Speaker 1: documentary a friend of mine was, she's an anthropologist that
Speaker 1: she was doing work in African She sent this thing
Speaker 1: to me um and they just spent a couple of
Speaker 1: days trailing after it eventually gets pretty sick. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: basically what they did. Kind of stands there, sweating and
Speaker 1: convulsion and whatnot, and they can finally go on and
Speaker 1: kill it, but they stuck with it for days. Well,
Speaker 1: that's why you have great, great trackers. And of course
Speaker 1: the best trackers that are laughter probably probably the Bushman
Speaker 1: and the Hodza, these tribes that hunt with with the
Speaker 1: poison arress. Uh. There's not a lot of great trackers
Speaker 1: left in Africa. There's some. They would be great by
Speaker 1: our standards, because very few people in this country can
Speaker 1: track anything. They have trouble tracking something through the snow.
Speaker 1: It's really pretty sad. But some of the I've had
Speaker 1: the opportunity to work with some trackers that were just unbelievable, uh,
Speaker 1: that literally could track animals across what looked like bare rock.
Speaker 1: I'm a pretty fair tracker. But they would they would
Speaker 1: draw a circle, says right here, and they would explain
Speaker 1: what they're seeing, and I still couldn't see it. And
Speaker 1: I'm not a bad tracker. Uh, some of them are.
Speaker 1: Just it seems super human, it really does. But there's
Speaker 1: not many of those trackers left. Did you get into
Speaker 1: medical school through the military? Drafted? I was drafted in
Speaker 1: the last draft we ever had, the United States Special
Speaker 1: Draft called forty four. All the medical people. Yeah, that
Speaker 1: one of the one when they started drawing numbers and
Speaker 1: it matches up to your last name and whatnot ever
Speaker 1: won in my life was a draft lottery and they
Speaker 1: so they drafted you. But you were already a med student.
Speaker 1: I was already out of school. Oh I got you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I was deferred from the draft while you're in school
Speaker 1: and then got out. Okay your numbers up? Yeah? Did that?
Speaker 1: Did all that knowledge of anatomy and everything? Uh? That
Speaker 1: you were trained and when you're in school did that all?
Speaker 1: Do you think that that led you to start becoming
Speaker 1: interested in air lethality? Uh? No, I was always interested.
Speaker 1: You know, we were a hunting family, and common topics
Speaker 1: would be terminal ballistics of cartridges and bullets and things
Speaker 1: like that. And even from the very start, we'd shoot
Speaker 1: an animal and um, you know, Dad warned us to
Speaker 1: dissect it to see what the bullet did, recover the
Speaker 1: bullet we possibly could, and so forth. And I got
Speaker 1: into bow hunting, and uh, I didn't think a whole
Speaker 1: lot about it really until I've been hunting twenty five
Speaker 1: years or so, and all with traditional equipment, and I decided, okay,
Speaker 1: it's about nine eighty, I'm gonna get a compound. Now,
Speaker 1: you know, everybody's going the compounds and the amount of
Speaker 1: improvement you had in the bow and how accurate you
Speaker 1: could be with it and everything. So I read what
Speaker 1: I could find new magazines and this that bought into it.
Speaker 1: Whole hall got uh it was a garden uh compound
Speaker 1: and you got some light errors and some multi blade
Speaker 1: replaceable blade broad heads. So they had those even in
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty. Oh yeah, they had a placeable broadheads are
Speaker 1: already replaceable blade heads were oh yeah, very common then. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And was trying to remember like some of the ones,
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, thunderheads, remember having a thunderhead and what was
Speaker 1: the one hit six blades? Razor back had five and
Speaker 1: like that plastic Yeah, I had kind of that plastic
Speaker 1: combing wing on the front. Fake, I interjected, just real quick,
Speaker 1: it'll drive my dad nuts if we don't introduce our
Speaker 1: other two guests real quick. Sure, you just introduce yourself,
Speaker 1: tell us what you do. Go ahead. Second, Todd Smith,
Speaker 1: I'm with Grizzly Stick Garrett Sleef, owner a Grizzly Stick Arrows,
Speaker 1: and we've been working with Doc on his research for
Speaker 1: a long time years, So we're starting with your dad,
Speaker 1: starting back with two generations of working on this stuff.
Speaker 1: And we were kind of the first guys to really
Speaker 1: look at what he was brilliant and then try to
Speaker 1: build equipment following what what he was doing. So we
Speaker 1: didn't really have a roadmap. It was just more of yeah,
Speaker 1: and we were learning news. We went well, I mean
Speaker 1: we were still learning lots of it. We've learned lots.
Speaker 1: There's still a lot of unanswered questions. Yep. Thank you
Speaker 1: appreciated it. Yep. So when do you uh was your
Speaker 1: first was that deal when you went to shoot the
Speaker 1: rhino in South Africa? Was toying with getting uh? Both season? Yeah?
Speaker 1: What year were they thinking about doing that? And they
Speaker 1: ultimately did it right, we went eight four and eighty five.
Speaker 1: I shouldn't say a bow season they're gonna legalize, Yeah,
Speaker 1: but the I mean, it's it's surprising to me that
Speaker 1: they even had at that time. A lot of countries
Speaker 1: in Africa probably didn't. They probably hadn't prohibited it because
Speaker 1: they didn't have that you could legally hunt. Were places
Speaker 1: that were signing on on ways and means there's the
Speaker 1: only place you could legally bow hunt. That law in
Speaker 1: South Africa was the first affirmative bow winting law in
Speaker 1: Africa in si So prior to that, prior they had
Speaker 1: spelled out what leader was no place that it set
Speaker 1: is legal to bow hunt. So if you want, if
Speaker 1: you look at look at those early hunts that everybody did,
Speaker 1: like Bob Swinehard and Howard Hill. Uh they did him
Speaker 1: up in Kenya which was still open then Uh, Tanzania
Speaker 1: and Mozambi all places that were silent. That's where like
Speaker 1: the adeladdle crowd drifts off to Alaska. Yeah, or that
Speaker 1: dude that wanted to kill a barrow the spear like
Speaker 1: she went somewhere in the Mississippi. Then after they did that,
Speaker 1: they clarified it that in fact, you can't kill a
Speaker 1: barrow to spear and yeah, yeah, I got you. So
Speaker 1: South Africa was the first place in Africa to decide
Speaker 1: to do after we did all decide, presented it all
Speaker 1: to the parks board. Uh, they legalized bow hunting and
Speaker 1: then it's just Domino, you know. Then it was Zimbabwe
Speaker 1: and it was Zambia and it wasn't a maybe. Uh
Speaker 1: and it just went on and on because they were
Speaker 1: afraid of lose in business. So yeah, well once they say, hey,
Speaker 1: you know these people getting this bow hunting money in,
Speaker 1: so you know they're making foreign you know, for X
Speaker 1: is coming in. Uh, let's get on the bandwagon here
Speaker 1: and get some of this. When you earlier mentioned getting
Speaker 1: into compound bows and you said, like you bought into
Speaker 1: you bought into all that, bought into all? What to
Speaker 1: the light fast arass you know? And U what I
Speaker 1: had beamons, remember little skinny beamons, And that year I
Speaker 1: hit and lost four deer. I had never done that,
Speaker 1: So I said, something's wrong. So I did what I
Speaker 1: would have done with a rifle. I said, you know,
Speaker 1: unless research, somebody who's got to research what works what
Speaker 1: doesn't other than just reading a magazine and seeing what
Speaker 1: you know, the companies are advertising and stuff is being pushed.
Speaker 1: So I was looking for stuff like Chamberlain's work with
Speaker 1: rifles and you know, some some honest research. Nothing, it
Speaker 1: didn't exist. So I decided, okay, I'm gonna have to
Speaker 1: find out for myself. And now this was about you know,
Speaker 1: early ages before the Tall thing came up. So I
Speaker 1: was already started doing stuff and looking at what was
Speaker 1: happening before the the Tall thing. Well, when the Tall
Speaker 1: thing just really kicked started me. Now I had a database.
Speaker 1: I mean, we had to really collect data to do
Speaker 1: these reports for the Tall Parks Board. Well the time
Speaker 1: we did than the Tall study, I had more questions
Speaker 1: than I did when I started that. And I found
Speaker 1: that all the way through twenty six years of research
Speaker 1: is every time I do and you set a test,
Speaker 1: I end up with a new set of questions of
Speaker 1: things to look at, and I'm still not through. That's
Speaker 1: why we established the foundation because after I hurt my back,
Speaker 1: I can't do anymore. Uh So somebody had to take over.
Speaker 1: And you're not gonna find any idiots like me. I
Speaker 1: did all of eye out of my own pocket. Every era,
Speaker 1: every Broadhead, every feather, everything was purchased by myself. I
Speaker 1: won't to stay independent of the archery industry. Wish we
Speaker 1: still do. We do not take donations from archery companies
Speaker 1: things like that. Yeah, noticing on your boy's website, the
Speaker 1: Grizzly Stick website, there's a note on the bottom that says, uh,
Speaker 1: because you have an asked me Broadhead yep, but a
Speaker 1: note on the bomb says you won't take any money
Speaker 1: from that Broadhead. Nope, not even a little bit. Nope.
Speaker 1: That was hard. That was part of the agreement. That
Speaker 1: was everybody, I wouldn't use my name on it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I'm not that smart, but I got I'm like,
Speaker 1: that sounds like a pretty good deal. Yeah. The other
Speaker 1: covenants on there was not at all. The other covenant was,
Speaker 1: when we do the testing, if the Broadhead works, you
Speaker 1: pull use my name on it YEA, with a disclaimer
Speaker 1: that I don't receive any funds out at it. Because
Speaker 1: unless you stay totally independent of industry, your research is tainted.
Speaker 1: And there's a lot of stuff out there, a lot
Speaker 1: of wound lost studies that were financed by the archery
Speaker 1: industry that come up with these incredibly low wounding rates
Speaker 1: by archery standards. They're showing. All of the studies that
Speaker 1: were independently done by game departments all show almost a
Speaker 1: one to one race. I would say, I would say
Speaker 1: it with and I would say with Elkin America, I
Speaker 1: definitely say that that's the case. I think it is
Speaker 1: just about everything. And I guided while I was in Africa.
Speaker 1: I did quiet particularly there's bow hunters. I'm sort of
Speaker 1: a freelance guide, so you know, if they had too
Speaker 1: many clients, I would go in or if they had
Speaker 1: bow hunting clients because there was almost nobody over there
Speaker 1: and anything about bow hunting that I would go in
Speaker 1: and work with whoever with their bow hunting clients. And
Speaker 1: I would say it's definitely it least one to one
Speaker 1: in Africa, whether the equipment that people were bringing and using.
Speaker 1: Yet you can cut it down to almost nothing as
Speaker 1: I got towards the better error systems. UH. Out of
Speaker 1: the last twenty five years where I have actual records
Speaker 1: tracking the animals that I've killed, there's six hundred and
Speaker 1: twenty seven animals, four lost animals four. I get that,
Speaker 1: but like it has so much to do with ask
Speaker 1: your question about consistency, Yanni, because it has so much
Speaker 1: to do with like, did you punch a hole through
Speaker 1: its heart? Like if you're if you're a very good
Speaker 1: archer taking very close shots, you're gonna have a very
Speaker 1: high recovery rate. You can't really always do that. I
Speaker 1: was a ground hunter. I've shot a few animals out
Speaker 1: of tree stands up, but very few stalker. Now, stalkers
Speaker 1: don't necessarily get set up shots. Now, my whole goal
Speaker 1: from the get go was to find the most effective
Speaker 1: error system you could possibly use, because a lot of
Speaker 1: the shots I took were shots that they're not broadside shots,
Speaker 1: you know, they're long quartering shots facing you, shots moving animals,
Speaker 1: you know. I used to when I was a kid.
Speaker 1: I mean, we shot a lot of moving targets. Animals
Speaker 1: just as big moving as he is standing still. Target
Speaker 1: size is still the same. So I didn't have too
Speaker 1: much trouble at all shooting moving animals. Now. We used
Speaker 1: to do a lot of bird hunting and stuff flying birds. Uh, weller,
Speaker 1: both didn't hit a lot of them. It's got a
Speaker 1: lot of practice running rabbits in front of dogs, and
Speaker 1: you can get pretty good on running shots, good enough
Speaker 1: to shoot big animals. A big animal actually gets pretty
Speaker 1: easy after you, you know, practice on stuff like that.
Speaker 1: Nobody does that kind of stuff anymore, um. And you know,
Speaker 1: there were some things in there that I didn't have,
Speaker 1: a lot of animals that were gut shots. I've never
Speaker 1: lost a gut shot as I got into these better
Speaker 1: era setups. But a lot of that's careful management of
Speaker 1: after the shot, of leaving it long enough, of stalking
Speaker 1: the trail, you know, and and not spooking just like
Speaker 1: you're hunting the animal again to find it. And most
Speaker 1: of the time, if you give them eight, ten, twelve hours,
Speaker 1: they're dead. Um. As a matter of fact, I don't
Speaker 1: think I've ever had one go beyond about a hundred
Speaker 1: and sixty yards when I didn't pursue him. He feels bad,
Speaker 1: he lays down, You give him time, and he will
Speaker 1: bleed out. There's a lot of think of your digestive system.
Speaker 1: There is a lot of blood vessels in there carrying
Speaker 1: away all this digestive food, nutrients and so forth. And
Speaker 1: the single bevel heads that rotate actually will wind intestines
Speaker 1: up around them, and you get a thing called a
Speaker 1: starbursts cut. Now, I didn't know this. TI was doing
Speaker 1: a lot of the research. But you'll get cuts that
Speaker 1: are five or six inches away from the path where
Speaker 1: the air went through, where it's wound stuff up around
Speaker 1: it and made all these little cuts. And I was
Speaker 1: doing that by taking die in a syringe and injecting
Speaker 1: it into the intestines and looking at them where the
Speaker 1: dye is coming out, And so you get these huge
Speaker 1: starbursts cuts in mobile tissues, and you get some of
Speaker 1: that effect even in lung tissues, where it just almost
Speaker 1: liquefies the lungs just MUSHes it up. And I've got
Speaker 1: a lot of photos of dear that you will look
Speaker 1: at and think they were shot with a rifle because
Speaker 1: of the amount of blood shot tissue. You do not
Speaker 1: get that with double bevel heads. Let's save the double
Speaker 1: and single bevel you you want to get into that
Speaker 1: right now. I want to get into grains, all right,
Speaker 1: explain that you are we there? Yeah? Have we covered
Speaker 1: off on enough of like how we how doc did
Speaker 1: the studies? No? Okay? But for people that aren't real
Speaker 1: familiar with aero setups, that's true. I think that when
Speaker 1: he's talking about aero setups, I think people need to
Speaker 1: know what he's talking About's true, that's true. Um, it's
Speaker 1: an arcane unit of measurement. But explain what a grain
Speaker 1: is because we're gonna talk a lot about grains. Well,
Speaker 1: it is a unit of measure, and there's seven thousand
Speaker 1: grains to a pound. What is that based off just
Speaker 1: counting up powder grains? Well, I'm not counting grains, but
Speaker 1: that's where the unit of measure works out. That's what
Speaker 1: a grain is. Yeah, but it's got seven thousands of
Speaker 1: a pounds. It's an English measure moment, it's got to
Speaker 1: be something like some dude took a pound, some dude
Speaker 1: took a pound of like granulated powder or something. No, no,
Speaker 1: it came from actual like seeds or whatever. I don't know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't remember which one of the stage, but together
Speaker 1: a unit, it came from like a foot about as
Speaker 1: long as your foot. Yeah, So that's where all these
Speaker 1: weird English stuff comes from. Is you know, what's the
Speaker 1: cloth yard? What's the foot? What's the yard? Yeah? You
Speaker 1: know there's a clay nucom our colleague. He's telling me
Speaker 1: there's an old unit of measurement called the eel. How
Speaker 1: it's spelled, and it's No, it's a deer neck. It's
Speaker 1: a sack made out of it. It's a sack made
Speaker 1: from a deer's neck. And you would and they would
Speaker 1: put how you would sell tallo, you would sell tallow
Speaker 1: in it, and it would be an eel. We're trying
Speaker 1: to start a cryptocurrency called we're trying to start a
Speaker 1: cryptocurrency called bear grease, and it's gonna trade and eels.
Speaker 1: That'd be good bear greacy, useful stuff. This. We got
Speaker 1: a whole plan for this cryptocurrency. Man, it's gonna a
Speaker 1: little bit point out of the water. Uh. Okay, So
Speaker 1: seven thousand grains to a what can you give it
Speaker 1: in like fractions of it converted to metric or or
Speaker 1: don't you know how to do that? On top of
Speaker 1: your head? Four hundred and what is it? Thirty something? Tom,
Speaker 1: It's something like that. It's four thirty something. Okay, I
Speaker 1: can't remember exactly what point. Uh, let's say the point
Speaker 1: being this, most broadheads today, most like when you go
Speaker 1: online and buy broadheads, um, you'll hit a little drop
Speaker 1: down menu and it's virtually certain that they're gonna be
Speaker 1: available on one tens and hundred was if they got
Speaker 1: to that'll be the two right, yeah, um, and those
Speaker 1: are what I mean they're they're not an ounce fractions
Speaker 1: of an ounce and then the arrow explain arrow weeight
Speaker 1: like like like you're like, what would be the most
Speaker 1: like currently day most guys going into their archery shop
Speaker 1: and buying arrows for a contemporary compound set up or
Speaker 1: buying arrows, and what would you say is three. It's
Speaker 1: about where they're gonna be, and that is people maximizing speed. Well,
Speaker 1: speed has been pushed. Kinnetic energy has been pushed to
Speaker 1: get connetic energy because the formulas squares the velocity. It
Speaker 1: looks really good as sells speed cells. And the industry
Speaker 1: has pushed this stuff since the nineteen fifties when the
Speaker 1: Allen compound first came out, and then the Jennings compound
Speaker 1: and and those were the first of the compound bows
Speaker 1: and uh, they were so much faster than traditional bows.
Speaker 1: And then as they got them faster and faster and faster.
Speaker 1: This is what people buy. I met a guy at
Speaker 1: the archery range when it was out tuning Eras in
Speaker 1: Australia who had just bought a new bowl because this
Speaker 1: new bowl was four ft per second faster than his
Speaker 1: old boat. He spent on this boat to get four
Speaker 1: ft per second m HM, which is not gonna make
Speaker 1: a bit of difference. It is the error that kills.
Speaker 1: I'd be much happier to go out here and there's
Speaker 1: no onld Indians. It's the arrow that kills, but it
Speaker 1: doesn't kill land on the ground. You have to once
Speaker 1: it's in fly. He didn't know what launched it care
Speaker 1: like damn sure knows how fast it's going. It knows
Speaker 1: how fast it's going and how much force has got,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't take as much as you think it
Speaker 1: does to get it to perform. Still, it's still, it's
Speaker 1: gonna be moving. It's gotta be moving. Moving one mile
Speaker 1: an hour isn't gonna do it. So there's a point.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's an argument to be made for it
Speaker 1: moving really fast. Well, there's a argument to be made
Speaker 1: for not moving fast. It's moving at late speed. The
Speaker 1: resistance quadruple as the speed doubles. Example is go down
Speaker 1: the road at thirty miles an hour and stick your
Speaker 1: hand out the wind and field of resistance. Now go
Speaker 1: sixty and field of resistance. Now go ninety and field
Speaker 1: of resistance it goes up as the square of the
Speaker 1: velocity inquiries, so you get at ninety, you've got nine
Speaker 1: times of resistance you have at thirty. One of the
Speaker 1: things we're finding because we get all his data back
Speaker 1: in from thousands of hunters over Buffalo shot now and
Speaker 1: over a hundred elephants with these era setups, we're seeing
Speaker 1: more passed through shots with bows sub seventy pound film
Speaker 1: war with heavier draw eight bows. That's one of the
Speaker 1: things we're gonna research. Something's happening. We don't know what,
Speaker 1: but there it's a significant difference in the number of
Speaker 1: passed through shots. Is it the tissue resistance going up
Speaker 1: at the higher veloss Like, is it more flexional in
Speaker 1: the shaft on the shafts not stiff enough to handle
Speaker 1: the impact at the higher force? You know what? What
Speaker 1: is it? We got to find out that's less one
Speaker 1: of the things on our list of research. Okay, Yanni
Speaker 1: asked all about the research now. So man, there's a
Speaker 1: lot of questions right now because I think you just
Speaker 1: very quickly because numerous times now you've said, like the
Speaker 1: arrow set ups that we're using now, So we sort
Speaker 1: of Steve laid out what the what like a contemporary
Speaker 1: you know in this crowd seems to be an insufficient
Speaker 1: arrow set up. So explain what the what a sufficient
Speaker 1: arrow set up is? Now that what we're talking about.
Speaker 1: And then also on the heels of that, tell me
Speaker 1: when when all these other archers are sending in this
Speaker 1: information and data points, I want to know, like, is
Speaker 1: it just like a phone call and they're sort of
Speaker 1: giving you, like the anecdotal story of what happened or
Speaker 1: is it literally they have a form? Don't that they
Speaker 1: fell out for you. I've tried having other people collect
Speaker 1: form dat I was called out the forms and stuff,
Speaker 1: and you can't get people do it. It's a lot
Speaker 1: of work. They just won't do it. It's just too much.
Speaker 1: Pictures you get, pictures you get. We get a lot
Speaker 1: of dissection pictures though people. I try to push that
Speaker 1: if I could get every hunter, every bow hunter, to
Speaker 1: just dissect the animals he shoots and look at what
Speaker 1: has happened. But more importantly, if he ever get the
Speaker 1: chance to dissect the unsuccessful shots to find out when
Speaker 1: they want they fail, That's where you really learned something.
Speaker 1: Successful shot didn't tell me much. But anytime there's an
Speaker 1: unsuccessful shot, it gives you an opportunity to find out
Speaker 1: what happened, why did it fail? And that's really where
Speaker 1: you learn to develop these better error systems. If I
Speaker 1: take what I like to call a penetration maximized ERA
Speaker 1: and put it against what I would consider a good error,
Speaker 1: better than what most people are shooting today, I can
Speaker 1: more than triple the penetration. That's fifteen inches and set
Speaker 1: of five are thirty inches instead of ten. That's a
Speaker 1: big difference penetration. We've got people out there with women
Speaker 1: with with low forty pound compounds getting five and six
Speaker 1: ft of penetration on things like eating on quartering shots.
Speaker 1: It's incredible. Explain the aerra set ups that they're using.
Speaker 1: Those those ERA setups are very high FOC because most
Speaker 1: of them are short drawals. Would would normally bet or
Speaker 1: more with the ERA set ups that they're using. FOC
Speaker 1: that's the weight forward the center and uh we actually
Speaker 1: established munch those because traditionally you had you know, a
Speaker 1: low FOC in a normal FOC, which was you know,
Speaker 1: eight or nine percent, and then a high one which
Speaker 1: was fifteen and sometimes as much as eight. And as
Speaker 1: I got into the research, I had to develop some
Speaker 1: names for other stuff. So we went into extreme FOC,
Speaker 1: which is from nineteen on up to thirty and above
Speaker 1: thirty we call ultra extreme. Now, the reason I come
Speaker 1: up with those names was real quick to explain the
Speaker 1: percentage of talking about that's how much the weight the
Speaker 1: balance point of the area is full of the center
Speaker 1: of the era, the physical center. Yeah, but how do
Speaker 1: you I don't understand how it's reflected in percentages and
Speaker 1: not is the is the percentage that it is forward
Speaker 1: to the center, and then you count from the knock
Speaker 1: to the front of the broadhood the shaf you can
Speaker 1: use there. They are both methods are used, but the
Speaker 1: AMO standard is from the throw to the knock to
Speaker 1: the end of the shaft, does not include the head.
Speaker 1: About the overall set up you're talking about the erralf
Speaker 1: I prefer that one because if you take the same
Speaker 1: era and you put a field point on it and
Speaker 1: a broad head on it, they're gonna be different links
Speaker 1: and you're count with different FOC percentages. The FOC we
Speaker 1: measure is a relative term, just like the static spine
Speaker 1: of an era. It does not tell you much dynamically.
Speaker 1: FOC actually is an aeronautical term and it's how far
Speaker 1: the center of gravity is from the center of pressure
Speaker 1: of an object in flight. M hm. So we've just
Speaker 1: used that picked it up an archery because it gives
Speaker 1: us a rough idea. Now with it works the same
Speaker 1: way with a plane. The higher the FOC with the plane,
Speaker 1: the more stable the plane is in flight, the harder
Speaker 1: it is to turn the plane. The lower the foc,
Speaker 1: the more maneuverable it is. Well, which one do you
Speaker 1: want your error? You want your error going all over
Speaker 1: the place? Do you want it only if you have
Speaker 1: a saying where it's going? You want possible? But now
Speaker 1: I like to listen to that analogy before and something
Speaker 1: that I was listening to you speak, and yeah, it's
Speaker 1: like a fighter jet. As the foc is very low
Speaker 1: take F twenty two. Rafter can almost fly sideways. But
Speaker 1: a human cannot fly it. He has to have a
Speaker 1: computer to do it. It's that unstable. But you take
Speaker 1: uh k C one thirty all that it has a
Speaker 1: high weight forward as stable as can be. Probably can
Speaker 1: sit there and turn loose of it for two or
Speaker 1: three medicine talk to you it is that's the big difference,
Speaker 1: and that's one of the benefits of high foc in
Speaker 1: an era. An era is always once it leaves the boat,
Speaker 1: it's always flying. The medium that it goes through changes
Speaker 1: It flies through the air, it flies through the skin,
Speaker 1: and it flies through the audipose tissue, through the muscle,
Speaker 1: through the bone, all the way through. The animal is
Speaker 1: still flying until it comes to stop. It's flying even
Speaker 1: when it hits the dirt. As long as this movie
Speaker 1: is still flying, it's just flying through dirt now, so
Speaker 1: you have to get the concept of what it's doing.
Speaker 1: This stability carries on through the animal. This is where
Speaker 1: it really makes a difference in terminal ballistics. To have
Speaker 1: that high foc is we now have a very stable
Speaker 1: era that is much more difficult to redirect. To have
Speaker 1: hit a bone and glance off at an angle so
Speaker 1: higher we get the foc. It makes a huge difference.
Speaker 1: Now it makes no difference in the testing we have
Speaker 1: so far, makes no difference as far as penetrating a
Speaker 1: heavy bone. That depends totally on the weight of the
Speaker 1: air how long he is able to push on the bone.
Speaker 1: But once it breaches the bone, the foc comes into play,
Speaker 1: and that's where you get a huge increase in post
Speaker 1: breaching penetration the archery industry's reluctance to look at what
Speaker 1: you have. You're divorced from the industry intentionally. Um, they're
Speaker 1: coming around though, Yeah, but I mean are you how
Speaker 1: were you making your own broadheads? And like, how are
Speaker 1: you testing different setups that didn't exist if the archery
Speaker 1: industry didn't produce them. Uh. The only single bevel was
Speaker 1: out there was the Grizzly and I used a lot
Speaker 1: of and that's not what they made is different when
Speaker 1: Harry Elberd used to make um and Uh, I mean
Speaker 1: the way the different way arrows. How are you making those?
Speaker 1: I was building them up, I was waiting the eras
Speaker 1: there all sorts of different things like drilling them out
Speaker 1: and filling them and stuff. Uh. Some I feel some
Speaker 1: were double shafted eras. Uh, some internally footed eras. Uh.
Speaker 1: All sorts of ways to increase the weight on there.
Speaker 1: And uh yes, Uh in the early days, I made
Speaker 1: a lot of the uh when they weren't available, steal inserts,
Speaker 1: brass inserts, had people make them for me. Machinist. I'm
Speaker 1: lon't good enough to make them. Uh, I see, but
Speaker 1: that's what I was curious, Like so you had to
Speaker 1: be You were testing things that didn't technically not didn't exist.
Speaker 1: You were testing things that weren't available on the market,
Speaker 1: right because I was finding as I would do a
Speaker 1: test and I would say, Okay, we need to look
Speaker 1: at this, and we need to look at this. Well,
Speaker 1: this isn't available for all that out of pocket. Everybody
Speaker 1: at it, even having hardness. You get married, to have kids, uh,
Speaker 1: married twice, divorce twice. I learned what they think? What
Speaker 1: do they think about all that arrowhead buying and all that? Uh,
Speaker 1: I'm divorced twice. Probably How long did you stay married?
Speaker 1: The longest thirteen years? Yeah, yeah, the next one was
Speaker 1: three years. I got smarter factors. I just had my
Speaker 1: thirteenth anniversary. Yeah. So you were saying that the current
Speaker 1: the heavy aerosystems that you like high FOC. Can you
Speaker 1: explained FOC, but then explain the rest of the aero system? Okay,
Speaker 1: there are actually if you look on our website, we'll
Speaker 1: go through them in detail there Hunting Foundation. Yes, you
Speaker 1: can go through the twelve factors that are there. We
Speaker 1: also have all of the updates that we did through
Speaker 1: the years. Now when people start reading those and there's
Speaker 1: a lot of pages of them. They need to read
Speaker 1: the whole thing because some of the things early on
Speaker 1: that I look at the research and the data that
Speaker 1: we had in sent low, you know, it indicates it
Speaker 1: might be this, might be that. But we learned stuff
Speaker 1: as we go along and things get better and better,
Speaker 1: are better um as we as we do get more
Speaker 1: information on it, so we would find these new things
Speaker 1: that that need to be looked at. Man, that's just
Speaker 1: what we had to do. And if we had to
Speaker 1: build something, we built it. You know, it's just what
Speaker 1: you did. The hardest part was coming up with shafty
Speaker 1: no good shafts, and and the long process of every
Speaker 1: era that we've used in the study is teamed uh
Speaker 1: bear shaft team, every one of them. Because without that,
Speaker 1: that's one of the high factors is you've got to
Speaker 1: have structural integrity the era. That's the most important thing.
Speaker 1: Without that, it doesn't matter if it flies perfect, where
Speaker 1: do you hit the animal? Nothing. If that aer breaks
Speaker 1: or part of it breaks when it hits the animal,
Speaker 1: every everything's lost. You've got no control over what's happening.
Speaker 1: You're probably gonna lose an animal. Uh. And then you
Speaker 1: have to have perfect flight. Now those two things ever
Speaker 1: ever change. So you got to go through all this
Speaker 1: long tuning process for every error before you start testing it,
Speaker 1: or your testing is no good mm hmm. And then
Speaker 1: you go down through all of the other factors, and
Speaker 1: each factor they'll compound each other so that this factor
Speaker 1: has a certain percentage gain and this factor has a
Speaker 1: certain percentage gain. Well, if you've got one of them there,
Speaker 1: you've got this game. When this game kicks in, it
Speaker 1: takes in a portion of this game, so it keeps
Speaker 1: adding up as you go to more and more factors. Two,
Speaker 1: if you want to get the most out of it,
Speaker 1: you incorporate as many of the factors you can. But
Speaker 1: the important thing is that anything you do out of
Speaker 1: these factors to your error setup is gonna make it better.
Speaker 1: And you have twelve factors. Yeah, we have twelve factors
Speaker 1: in there. Can you go through some of them? If
Speaker 1: I get my note so out, I can, because we're
Speaker 1: gonna do that later today, because I'll forget all their
Speaker 1: ranking relative order. If you took in all shots together,
Speaker 1: the ranking will change under certain situations. For instance, the
Speaker 1: heavy bone threshold is right at the bottom of the
Speaker 1: list because it's not important unless you hit a heavy bone.
Speaker 1: But when you hit a heavy bone, it'll jump to
Speaker 1: the number three position. And so there is some movement
Speaker 1: in these things depending on the shot. That's why you incorporate.
Speaker 1: You don't know what's gonna happen on a shot. The
Speaker 1: animal's gonna move, it's rare. We've got a lot of
Speaker 1: video footage here in Texas shooting hogs and deer and stuff.
Speaker 1: Uh compounds, fast compounds, slow compounds, traditional bones, so forth.
Speaker 1: We don't have a video of an animal that does
Speaker 1: not move before the air gets there. And most of
Speaker 1: these yards m hm. So if you look at it
Speaker 1: in slow motion, the animals in motion, in motion, in motion,
Speaker 1: in response to the bow noise. Yes, and most of
Speaker 1: the time it's a duck and roll away. Duck can
Speaker 1: roll away from the source of the north from the source,
Speaker 1: but not always. Sometimes they'll completely reverse only sometimes they'll
Speaker 1: actually turn into it. But there's always some movement going
Speaker 1: on in there. Really, there's not a single video of
Speaker 1: an animal not reacting at all. Now, only times I've
Speaker 1: ever seen animals not react at all to the shot
Speaker 1: was on a very long range shot. That's all been
Speaker 1: small game varmint shooting, varmint calling that kind of stuff,
Speaker 1: uh where they might not hear, but we were going
Speaker 1: to do more. I've done a little bit of research
Speaker 1: looking at air noise, and you can quiet down an
Speaker 1: air a lot by different types of fletching. And we've
Speaker 1: worked out of fletching that we call an A and
Speaker 1: a fleshing very small triangular shape. It will only work
Speaker 1: with very high foc aras the higher you've got the
Speaker 1: foc you now have a long rear steering arm on
Speaker 1: the air, so it does not take much fletching to
Speaker 1: overcome the wind share of the broad head. It's way
Speaker 1: you bear shaft tuned. If it shoots perfectly, bear shafted,
Speaker 1: and then you put your broad head on there. The
Speaker 1: only fletching you need is enough to overcome the wind
Speaker 1: share under all wind conditions. So I tune that fleshing
Speaker 1: just like I would anything else that I put the
Speaker 1: broad head that this era is going to be used with,
Speaker 1: and then I see how small I can go in
Speaker 1: that fletching before I get unstable flight, and I go
Speaker 1: back up slightly. We actually use the thing called a turbulator,
Speaker 1: which is a little pin stripe thing that goes around
Speaker 1: in front of the feathers out a quarter of an inch.
Speaker 1: Feathers do work better than veins because they've they've got
Speaker 1: higher drag and they're lighter. Gives us higher foc The
Speaker 1: turbulator disrupts the laminar flow down the air shaft, which
Speaker 1: creates increased pressure, just like wood on an airplane. They
Speaker 1: use turbulators on airplanes too, uh, which will increase the
Speaker 1: pressure on the small reflection and that has a much
Speaker 1: lower sound effect. So we're gonna do a lot more
Speaker 1: research for that. That's coming up. Because you think they're
Speaker 1: responding to the sound of the approaching arrow or through
Speaker 1: to take a big fletch and shoot it a rabbit
Speaker 1: at about eighty yards, watching perk up and move where
Speaker 1: the arrogance there? Oh, here's it coming. Yeah, So you
Speaker 1: don't sound too dissimilar from a that's true and very
Speaker 1: similar yep, and and so big fleshing it. Now. When
Speaker 1: I first started hunting and it started into this research,
Speaker 1: he I had to use really large feathers because I
Speaker 1: realized that at close range I had to get my
Speaker 1: air out of paradox to get the penetration up. Because
Speaker 1: I could shoot animals at yards a lot more penetration
Speaker 1: that if I shot him in seven or eight yards,
Speaker 1: that's the paradox. The era is flexing, So you have
Speaker 1: archer's paradox, and let me give it a shot and
Speaker 1: then you can correct me. But basically as that your
Speaker 1: bowstring starts to push your arrow. The arrow doesn't immediately
Speaker 1: start moving at first flexus. Your arrow does this as
Speaker 1: it's coming out of your boat, like it bends in
Speaker 1: the sideways, um, you know, a half moon arc arc,
Speaker 1: and then as it leaves it does that the other direction,
Speaker 1: and then the other direction, and eventually it straightens out
Speaker 1: and then flies completely straight. But the paradox is that
Speaker 1: it's not that you think the closer it is the better. Well,
Speaker 1: the original paradox so weren't center shot bows, was that
Speaker 1: in order to hit the target, it has to bend
Speaker 1: around the boat. It has to not be pointed at
Speaker 1: the target. But that's not a paradox, well it is.
Speaker 1: It's paradox that you don't point at it to be
Speaker 1: able to hit it. Ah, there's the paradise. I was
Speaker 1: trying to figure out where the paradox is. I thought
Speaker 1: the paradox was you think really close is better. No, no, no,
Speaker 1: it's actually the fact that on an tradtional bow that
Speaker 1: you know, and in some of the boats I used,
Speaker 1: have no self for that reason, let me use lighter
Speaker 1: air shafts. When I was trying to get it high officially,
Speaker 1: and the arrows pointed off like this to shoot out there,
Speaker 1: I guess the rifleman's paradox would be that if you're
Speaker 1: shooting at something at point blank range, you'd have to
Speaker 1: account for the fact that you're cross there is an
Speaker 1: inch and a half higher than you're essentially and a
Speaker 1: half that's right. You'd have the line of sight and
Speaker 1: the board access and somewhere out there they're gonna cross,
Speaker 1: and they're gonna cross again. I'm gonna douve the rifleman's
Speaker 1: paradox trademarking because a lot of people don't know are
Speaker 1: there's paradox. We also call it shot flex. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: you get it again on impact. Now it's hit, the
Speaker 1: front of the air has slowed down and the back
Speaker 1: of the air is still trying to push it forward. Now,
Speaker 1: one of the things we found with the higher fo
Speaker 1: cs is that they come out of paradox and you
Speaker 1: shoot it much faster. Because it's lighter at the back end,
Speaker 1: and when you hit the animal, most of the weight
Speaker 1: is up front. You've got a very stiff forward leaver
Speaker 1: arm and the back of the shaft is very light.
Speaker 1: And because it's very light, it doesn't push his hard,
Speaker 1: it doesn't flex as much, and it stops flexing much faster.
Speaker 1: So that helps you get increased penetration because when that's
Speaker 1: flexing going through the wound channel, just having to push
Speaker 1: tissue every time it bends and goes through a bone.
Speaker 1: Same thing he's trying to push against that moan and
Speaker 1: that slows it down. Now, there's a couple of things
Speaker 1: you can do to see that really easy. Uh. You
Speaker 1: can take a dowe rod long your four or five
Speaker 1: ft drill. You a hole on the board and put
Speaker 1: it in there and get a rubber ball. Put the
Speaker 1: rubber ball away at the back end and pull it
Speaker 1: over the side and watch it go. There's like a metronome.
Speaker 1: Takes forever to stop. Move it down about halfway, which
Speaker 1: you're a little more than halfway like most eras are. No,
Speaker 1: you can go a long time. Put it right down
Speaker 1: against the board and stops. The same thing happens with
Speaker 1: an era. Now you can do that with ashual eras
Speaker 1: by drilling up pretty good sized holes, say five eighths
Speaker 1: of an inch or something, and take two errors, one
Speaker 1: with a normal foc, one with a high effles, very
Speaker 1: high effles. Put it in there so there is identical
Speaker 1: except for the foc, same chef, size, everything about it.
Speaker 1: Pull it over to the side and turn it loose.
Speaker 1: Time it with a stopwatch to drop through the hole.
Speaker 1: Now take the high foc when it goes take a
Speaker 1: take a tu m hm. Same things happen when it
Speaker 1: goes to the bone or a hole in the bone.
Speaker 1: Once you've placed to hold through there, they're very easy
Speaker 1: to see. You guys even use a Doppler radar when
Speaker 1: you're doing research. Yes, yes, we we have. Well, Daryl's
Speaker 1: got one, so now we've got three. The foundation is
Speaker 1: about too, and we've got a high speed camera on
Speaker 1: the way. You might be here by now where I'll
Speaker 1: just home. We'll find out where we can u a
Speaker 1: genuine high speed camera, not a regular camera that's you know,
Speaker 1: shooting three or four hundred frames whatever, This is three
Speaker 1: thousand frames a second. Well, how does the how does
Speaker 1: the what do you do with the Doppler radar. Uh.
Speaker 1: It works like any other chronograph, but it will read
Speaker 1: the ERA at at whatever range does you want to
Speaker 1: set it for. So this reading is goes out so
Speaker 1: you can shoot one ara by it and you can
Speaker 1: read the launch velocity. You can read it at five
Speaker 1: yards ten yards fifty out to where it will no
Speaker 1: longer pick it up. Well, it'll pick these Doppler radar
Speaker 1: like that. We'll pick up a thirty caliber rifle bullet
Speaker 1: out to about seven yard words, so let'll take up
Speaker 1: an ERA a long way out there. And we've just
Speaker 1: started started doing some testing with those. Are you able
Speaker 1: to test it coming in and going out with something?
Speaker 1: That's why we're trying to work out a system to
Speaker 1: do That's one of you've got multiple level because you're
Speaker 1: gonna have to have one to read it going in
Speaker 1: and one to read it coming out because the animals
Speaker 1: going to be in the way. So we're trying to
Speaker 1: work out a system to do that. Uh. So Darryl
Speaker 1: and Troy are working on that now, trying to come
Speaker 1: up with a methodology and uh having Darryl with us,
Speaker 1: who's a true I mean calling the rocket man, he's
Speaker 1: true rocket scientists work for the government. All these worked
Speaker 1: on rail guns and uh uh tank penetrating projectiles and
Speaker 1: uh cruise missiles and all this kind of stuff that
Speaker 1: you know for years. So he's very much into both
Speaker 1: terminal ballistics, but more so probably into flight ballistics. Are
Speaker 1: you gonna hit us with the twelve factors? Oh? I was, yeah,
Speaker 1: I will, Okay. The very first one to the first
Speaker 1: four are are really ones about the only ones I
Speaker 1: remember on the top of my head. The structural integrity
Speaker 1: was talked about, which is an absolutely must have. That's
Speaker 1: gonna always be number one. The second one is going
Speaker 1: to be the air of flight. I talked about perfect
Speaker 1: air of flight. You're going to have to have that.
Speaker 1: The next most important overall is the extreme foc that's
Speaker 1: percentage wise going to give you the biggest gain in
Speaker 1: penetration through soft tissues, postmone breaching, so forth. The next
Speaker 1: one is the mechanical advantage of the Broadhead. Now Broadhead
Speaker 1: has it's inclined planes. It's a series of inclined planes
Speaker 1: on most Broadhead song got some other weird stuff stuck on.
Speaker 1: But the longer and narrower it is, the higher the
Speaker 1: mechanical advantage is. And you can think of it like
Speaker 1: wheelchair ramps. Wheelchair ramps are low and gradual because it's
Speaker 1: easier to move a load from here to there. It
Speaker 1: will do more work with the same applied force. That's
Speaker 1: what mechanical advantage is. So if we get a broad
Speaker 1: head that is a true three to one mechanical advantage,
Speaker 1: it will take the force of the era and multiplied
Speaker 1: by factor of three, and if it's two to one,
Speaker 1: you're multiplying it by a factor of two. A lot
Speaker 1: of broadheads are way down there, bow one on some
Speaker 1: of them, so you're actually losing force from the mechanical
Speaker 1: advantage of the broadhead. What's the shittiest broadhead being sold
Speaker 1: out there? Most mechanicals, most mechanical, most mechanicals, Yeah, because
Speaker 1: those things got some If I had my druthers, I
Speaker 1: just just going by what you're saying. They have a
Speaker 1: very low with their deploy that a very low mechanics
Speaker 1: and also the force of deployment. And we also have
Speaker 1: gauges that were now starting to use that, and we
Speaker 1: use it in some of our demonstrations of letting people
Speaker 1: take their own broadheads and and bring a hide and
Speaker 1: let them push it through there. And we've actually got
Speaker 1: a gauge you can put on there and you can
Speaker 1: see the force required to push it through the hide.
Speaker 1: There's a thing called a trap pan trap Pantenson gauge.
Speaker 1: This essentially it's pressed down and measure your pay attention
Speaker 1: and it's it's really uh graphic because we have had
Speaker 1: people with heads that with all the force they could use,
Speaker 1: could not push them through the hide, and then they
Speaker 1: take a good cut on contact a chisel tip, I
Speaker 1: guess is is what's Yeah, A lot of the chisel
Speaker 1: tips are tough like that are the calm tips Okay,
Speaker 1: hard to push through, very hard to push through. Uh,
Speaker 1: And a lot of the mechanicals very hard to push through.
Speaker 1: Got very that blind angle even when you get the
Speaker 1: front part through trying to get him to deploy and
Speaker 1: then trying to get them through there, and it takes
Speaker 1: almost no force. With a good high mechanical advantage cut
Speaker 1: on contact broadhead is sharp. You just push through one finger,
Speaker 1: it's no problem. And all of that force that you
Speaker 1: say there of the era is forced you can apply
Speaker 1: to more penetration. So you want to get through all
Speaker 1: the tissues with the leash resistance you can which is
Speaker 1: basically what we do with all the factors. We're looking
Speaker 1: to maximize the force that the air carries with withever
Speaker 1: factors in there. I want to get back to that list,
Speaker 1: but I just have but I have one to go ahead,
Speaker 1: Go ahead, you've gotten a bunch of ince. I think
Speaker 1: you can let me have one, because can you tell
Speaker 1: the story about or because you talk about penetration, some
Speaker 1: people are gonna say, well, at what point is it
Speaker 1: too much? Because if I go through you both sides,
Speaker 1: that's enough. But I read something where you were saying that, no,
Speaker 1: it's definitely better because of what the was it the
Speaker 1: Royal Academy of veter Science. Yeah, and in Great Britain. Uh,
Speaker 1: they actually did some research for what reason, I don't
Speaker 1: know own errors. I never did figure that out. But
Speaker 1: if the shaft remains in, it impedes the hemorrhaging. If
Speaker 1: it stays in and the animal is moving, it impedes
Speaker 1: even more the hemorrhaging. But if it goes completely through,
Speaker 1: the shaft is out and the hemorrhaging is freer. And
Speaker 1: one of the one of the things try for yourself.
Speaker 1: Get your zip block bag gallon size three quarters full
Speaker 1: of water, get you some barbecue skewers going, stick the
Speaker 1: skewers through. Look at the leak that's coming out. You know,
Speaker 1: start first, just stick on one side, stick it on
Speaker 1: one side, then push them all the way through, both
Speaker 1: sides still in there. Now pull the two out and
Speaker 1: watch what happens. This is essentially what happened if you
Speaker 1: go talk to any emergency room that hershing or leaking both. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because like for blood trailing, Yeah, for blood trailing, I
Speaker 1: can see it's having Yeah, we notice it like it's
Speaker 1: like it could still be bleeding internally. It's not doing
Speaker 1: you any good on the ground. Don't having the projectile
Speaker 1: in there impedes bleeding any just responders, emergency room physician.
Speaker 1: If you have an embedded object, the first thing they're
Speaker 1: gonna tell you do is not removed. It should not
Speaker 1: really removed until you have that patient in a setting
Speaker 1: where you can control the increased hemorrhay gene that's going
Speaker 1: to occur when you remove that. And that's exactly what
Speaker 1: it'll say. You didn't look that one up on internet.
Speaker 1: That's easy to find, yeah, even internet. Yeah, yeah, Plus
Speaker 1: you you know, if the error is gone completely through,
Speaker 1: it's now you have sucking, chest wound, collapse lungs. What
Speaker 1: do you do when you've got somebody that does have
Speaker 1: a penetrate shop with a bullet, what do you do?
Speaker 1: You put a seal over there. You don't want to
Speaker 1: collapse that lung. They've got to have that seal to
Speaker 1: be able to breathe. So that's not what we will.
Speaker 1: We want him to die. We're not trying to keep
Speaker 1: him alive. So you want that error to exit completely.
Speaker 1: And if they people talk about airror staying in and
Speaker 1: moving around and causing all these lacerations and stuff, if
Speaker 1: it goes for enough stick on the other side, it's
Speaker 1: not gonna move around much. But even if it's in there,
Speaker 1: if they will dissect that animal, you don't see a
Speaker 1: lot of that laceration. It doesn't happen. The tissues hold
Speaker 1: it firm enough. And why we're talking about very mobile tissues.
Speaker 1: Lungs are very mobile, much like intestines and stuff. You
Speaker 1: know they'll move because I think that's something if you
Speaker 1: look at people have sort of accepted that, Yeah, if
Speaker 1: you're broad as this at least in there and the
Speaker 1: animals running around, it's moving and cutting and it's good
Speaker 1: it is not there. If you dissect animals, you don't
Speaker 1: do don't see this massive laceration. It's like in our
Speaker 1: head we think it's doing that. Oh yeah, you see
Speaker 1: the man that's gotta be cutting. Well he's moving too,
Speaker 1: but the tissue is holding it and so it's just
Speaker 1: going this, just staying straight, not cutting. So it's just
Speaker 1: not there. That's why I wish I could get people
Speaker 1: to to dissect animals and look at it, and they
Speaker 1: would start to learn some of this stuff. But most
Speaker 1: people don't do it and got the animal and get
Speaker 1: out of here, you know, and they very rarely looked at.
Speaker 1: Gun Hunters need to do that too, get an idea
Speaker 1: how their bullets performed with a lot of crappy bullets
Speaker 1: on the market too. I did a lot of terminal
Speaker 1: ballistic research for Barnes bullets too, so I got quite
Speaker 1: a background and in doing terminal bullists. Uh but any him,
Speaker 1: we're on our list. Well okay, uh, well we're all
Speaker 1: mechanical advantage. But one of the things that people don't
Speaker 1: look at also is it's your edge. Bevel has a
Speaker 1: mechanical advantage. This is also an incline plane. If you've
Speaker 1: got a double bevel. It's like that the most commons
Speaker 1: back up a little bit because I think already we've
Speaker 1: probably maybe lost some listeners just to explain, like the
Speaker 1: bevel and this angle, and and just like back it
Speaker 1: up to just one oh one. So we were dude
Speaker 1: off of knife blades and razor blades. Basically, most most
Speaker 1: double bevel broadheads how much like a knife blade. Most
Speaker 1: common angle is the same on both of them's twenty
Speaker 1: five degrees on each side. You now have a fifty
Speaker 1: degree cutting angle. When you get to a single bevel,
Speaker 1: one side is flat, you've got a bevel on the other.
Speaker 1: Now we've got some out there with twenty degrees. Now
Speaker 1: we're we're testing some of those in Africa right now
Speaker 1: to see if that'll hold up at twenty Now. I
Speaker 1: worked originally the gritties. I god had about thirty five
Speaker 1: degree I think, and I worked from different bevels, working
Speaker 1: them down, and the lowest I can get to is
Speaker 1: twenty five. Below twenty five the steel wasn't strong enough.
Speaker 1: It starts to roll the edge, So that was as
Speaker 1: slow as low as you get. But those when you
Speaker 1: get to twenty five degree bevel, you've got to see
Speaker 1: row in twenty five. It is now twice as thin
Speaker 1: as a double bevel broadhead. It's mechanical advantage is twice
Speaker 1: as high. Now what does that mean for you? Okay,
Speaker 1: a blood vessel is touching it with the same amount
Speaker 1: of pressure between the two edges. The single bevel, it's
Speaker 1: going to slice twice as deep or twice as easily,
Speaker 1: whichever you want to look at it as that double bevel.
Speaker 1: Because it has a higher mechanical advantage. It does more
Speaker 1: work with the same applied pressure. By definition, that's what
Speaker 1: mechanically managed does. But you have to have steel of
Speaker 1: a good enough quality for that edge to hold up.
Speaker 1: That's why a real premium single bevel head. You know,
Speaker 1: our hundred plus dollars for three heads, but as you
Speaker 1: can at least reuse them. Look at the price of
Speaker 1: UH five N express rifle cartridge. Now have four dollars
Speaker 1: a box of twenty. You know, the broadhead is going
Speaker 1: to be one of the least expensive things of your hunt.
Speaker 1: So it's old ara set up, you know, and white
Speaker 1: people scrimp on the one thing that's going to come
Speaker 1: in contact with the animal. I have never understood, but
Speaker 1: they do it. But Basically, that's where mechanical advance and
Speaker 1: it's just come in. I hope that's clear enough you
Speaker 1: understand it. The people, most people really overlook the mechanical
Speaker 1: advantage of the edge bettle. It's a big one. And
Speaker 1: another thing is that we've talked about why I would
Speaker 1: guess that right now, if we looked at just picked
Speaker 1: a random ten arrowheads on the Internet, that the edge
Speaker 1: bevel the angle might not even be listed under the
Speaker 1: specific most of the times not It's probably not even
Speaker 1: a thing that people even think about. But that's something
Speaker 1: we tracked, and in the study, we tracked the edge
Speaker 1: babble of every if it's got six blades, we're gonna
Speaker 1: have the edge battle of all six blades listed there.
Speaker 1: You know, if it's got bleeder blades, four blade blader blades,
Speaker 1: sometimes they have different angles ground on them. So we've
Speaker 1: got that all track. And that's one of the factors
Speaker 1: you can look at. It's a's what difference does it make?
Speaker 1: And the one thing that we found when we were
Speaker 1: looking at single babble versus double bebble in absolute identical
Speaker 1: profile broadheads on the same error that up is that
Speaker 1: the single bevels will give you more penetration both in
Speaker 1: soft tissue and drastically so in bone. Huge difference in
Speaker 1: bone because the rotating single bevel will pop the bone.
Speaker 1: I think that we should, uh, you should explain the
Speaker 1: how a single bevel uh like makes itself when it
Speaker 1: hits an animal and bones when it when it's flat
Speaker 1: on one side. Okay, well we'll put the bevel over here.
Speaker 1: If it's flat on one side and beveled on the other,
Speaker 1: when you apply pressure to this side as it goes
Speaker 1: through something, there's no pressure on this side, and it
Speaker 1: castes the rotation. There you go. He's got a big
Speaker 1: old plastic broadhead, but he's got a left bevel. That's
Speaker 1: all right. Uh, it's going to press here but not here.
Speaker 1: And it's going to press here but not here. When
Speaker 1: he says press here, he's pointing at the bevel of
Speaker 1: the broadhead, not the flat edge. Yes, the torque generated
Speaker 1: is going to be proportional to the amount if you
Speaker 1: go talking about a bone, the amount of surface area
Speaker 1: of the bevel in contact with the bone or any
Speaker 1: given time. Now, there's also going to be a differential
Speaker 1: by how wide the broadhead is. When you get a
Speaker 1: very wide broadhead. You're putting a lot more stress on
Speaker 1: the edge at any given bevel angle because you've got
Speaker 1: a longer leaver arm coming out here torking. So it's
Speaker 1: going to be more likely to roll that edge or
Speaker 1: chipped the hedge or whatever it's going to do. Now,
Speaker 1: if it's got to do one or the other, you
Speaker 1: want to chip rather than roll. A chipped steel blade
Speaker 1: is a whole lot sharper than a rolled edge rolled edge,
Speaker 1: and you can saw your hand with it. It's not
Speaker 1: gonna cut anything, but that's where you get the torking effect.
Speaker 1: When you have a double bevel, you got even pressure
Speaker 1: on both sides. When they hit a bone, it has
Speaker 1: to push its waist straight through. Now, with a high
Speaker 1: speed camera, we're gonna find out just how far it
Speaker 1: goes into the bone before it pops it with that torque.
Speaker 1: M hmm. Yeah, I think it's happening very quickly. I
Speaker 1: don't know that, but we're going to find out. Can
Speaker 1: I tell you something. I was reading the thing one
Speaker 1: time where a guy was just you holding that thing,
Speaker 1: the single bevel, talking about that. I was reading a
Speaker 1: thing where a guy was writing a paper on what
Speaker 1: he believed the prevalency of left handedness was among Folsome hunters,
Speaker 1: based on resharpened Falsome point that they assumed we're hafted,
Speaker 1: and that he was working with his left holding the
Speaker 1: half of his right hand and working with the left,
Speaker 1: and I think they found that they were had a
Speaker 1: higher prevalency of I think this guy suggests I had
Speaker 1: a higher prevalency of left handedness at least a months
Speaker 1: on the hunters believe people. It's interesting anyway, that gives
Speaker 1: you a good idea what we're talking about with the
Speaker 1: torqu generator. What number one right now? Uh, we're still
Speaker 1: number four mechanical advantage. Oh you got all that rolled
Speaker 1: under mechanical advantage. That's like ABC. Well it's not necessarily
Speaker 1: with the torque that would come down generaly further where
Speaker 1: we talked about the type of edge babbove But okay, five,
Speaker 1: it's the shaft diameter to feral diameter ratio right there,
Speaker 1: because chaft goes into the broadhead. If it's like this, smaller,
Speaker 1: you gain about ten penetration as opposed to be even
Speaker 1: if the shaft is bigger, you lose penetration. What he's
Speaker 1: sawing about about is the the drag. Yeah, like if
Speaker 1: you run your hand from a aft downe of the broadhad,
Speaker 1: you definitely don't want it to drop off at the broadhead.
Speaker 1: Well that's further down the list too, But yes, broadhead
Speaker 1: profile error profile is important. But that's the important one
Speaker 1: to have right there, and we're going to do more
Speaker 1: research on. But in what the data we have now,
Speaker 1: it doesn't seem to increase very much in penetration once
Speaker 1: you're about five smaller than the broadhead feral hm. But
Speaker 1: we've got a lot more skinny shafts to work with now,
Speaker 1: so we may code with something new as we do
Speaker 1: the newer testing and and find out that okay, going down,
Speaker 1: the more you might gain some more penetration. And why
Speaker 1: why I'm guessing is just that the broadhead has created
Speaker 1: a bigger channel than the arrow needs to go just
Speaker 1: pure drag. If if you look at this coming down
Speaker 1: and having to bump up over an errow shaft, now
Speaker 1: it's going to have more pressure against this tissue and
Speaker 1: shaft profiles on there too. As we look at shaft profiles.
Speaker 1: If you have a barrel taper shaft, then you can
Speaker 1: go and buy a barrel tapertechularly in wood ares and
Speaker 1: traditional areas. Yes, they're very common and being used for
Speaker 1: centuries and for various things. But it'll it'll be on
Speaker 1: one diameter here then gets bigger towards the metal than
Speaker 1: tapers at the back. Those will have the lowest penetration.
Speaker 1: If you took identical eras for everything's up the shaft profile,
Speaker 1: same weight, same broad head, shopping the same bowl, shoot
Speaker 1: each one fifty times and and look at the averages,
Speaker 1: You're you're going to lose u significant amount of penetration.
Speaker 1: The highest penetrating is the taper shaft. The taper shaft,
Speaker 1: the further it gets in in the drag of the
Speaker 1: shaft drops. Now you have to remember too when it's
Speaker 1: why you can't. I haven't been able to find artificial
Speaker 1: mediums that worked well because you're shooting that era through
Speaker 1: a blood in an animal, through a blood suffused environment,
Speaker 1: which lubricates you. You know how slick blood is, you
Speaker 1: had blood on your hands, Try to hold your knife
Speaker 1: handle when you're gutting an animal, and it actually has
Speaker 1: a lubricating effect, which is another reason we do our testing.
Speaker 1: Within thirty minutes of putting the animal down. Not only
Speaker 1: for changing the tissue rigged mortis, but blood will start
Speaker 1: to coagulate. You no longer have a bleeding when you
Speaker 1: shoot them. When they're fresh put down, you still have
Speaker 1: some blood coming out of the tissues you have. You
Speaker 1: guys into a guy that sent in this thing about
Speaker 1: how he was in a He has a cadaver lab,
Speaker 1: or was in a cadaver lab. Human cadaver lab. They
Speaker 1: pump beef blood through cadavers to keep them. I don't know, yeah,
Speaker 1: freshened up. You could apply that you started. He's a
Speaker 1: lab guy there. I do feel stuff. They even do
Speaker 1: it at tempt so they use souvied warm beef blood
Speaker 1: and roll it through cadavers, keeping and fresh. He's making
Speaker 1: note that transfer knowledge, transfer a knowledge right there, if
Speaker 1: the rifleman's paradox doesn't work out, yelled Pat, and that okay,
Speaker 1: what number you know? Okay? With number six? Aerra masks
Speaker 1: the physical airra weight, and that's a real simple one
Speaker 1: from physics. The heavy or something is the longer it
Speaker 1: takes to stop period and as all, it will also
Speaker 1: gave more energy from your boat. I don't care what
Speaker 1: kind of boat you shoot. If you put a heavier
Speaker 1: air on there. It's going to happen. It won't be big,
Speaker 1: but it's going to have an increase in kinetic energy transfer,
Speaker 1: which is the proper use of kinetic energy, not what
Speaker 1: the ARA does from the bow into the era, because
Speaker 1: all of the noise and the sound of the vibration
Speaker 1: you get with a light era, the heavier area you
Speaker 1: go to, the more it diminishes. Now I haven't gone all.
Speaker 1: I've gone up to about six grain eras, and it's
Speaker 1: still showing that you're still seeing a small kinetic energy
Speaker 1: gain as you go to the heavier eras. Out of
Speaker 1: any given boat, compound recurves long bows, doesn't matter, works
Speaker 1: with all of them, and that ERA mass is going
Speaker 1: to carry this additional force that it has received from
Speaker 1: the bowl. And what we're doing with all these factors
Speaker 1: is trying to maximize the conservation of this force the
Speaker 1: era has derived from the bow to be able to
Speaker 1: apply it to the animal when it hit. Because this
Speaker 1: is the endpoint. This is what really matters, is the
Speaker 1: terminal ballistics. And you know, kinetic energy tells you how
Speaker 1: hard something it um, It doesn't tell you the forward
Speaker 1: motion of it. It doesn't kinnectic energy doesn't have a direction.
Speaker 1: Sound is kinetic energy. Vibration, the shaft is the wiggling
Speaker 1: of the shaft, the resistance of it against the air,
Speaker 1: the paradox. These are all part of kinetic energy. They
Speaker 1: have nothing to do with penetration, because penetration is directional force,
Speaker 1: and that's what you get with momentum. Momentum does have
Speaker 1: a direction, and momentum has to be met by an
Speaker 1: equal force of resistance before it stops. So the more
Speaker 1: momentum you can put into that era, which is mass
Speaker 1: times velocity, not velocity squared, and not all of the
Speaker 1: momentum is force, penetration is concern works out equal. The
Speaker 1: more of that momentum that is invested in the mass
Speaker 1: of the era, the more outcome penetration you're going to have.
Speaker 1: Because the mass of the air is not going to change,
Speaker 1: the velocity is going to decreases, it penetrates, but a
Speaker 1: significant portion of that momentum is invested in the weight
Speaker 1: of the air, and that weight of the error is
Speaker 1: going to carry all the way till it stops. So
Speaker 1: even as that slows down, is still carrying more momentum
Speaker 1: right up to the end, and that's why a bowling
Speaker 1: ball carries a lot more momentum than baseball's next one. Yeah. Now,
Speaker 1: if you're talking connectic energy is one of my things
Speaker 1: I get off on because there are places that have
Speaker 1: applied kinnectic energy as a standard for hunting animals and
Speaker 1: it is not aptical. I'm sorry, it does not apply
Speaker 1: to take a baseball picture. That get a Major League
Speaker 1: baseball picture in pitch ninety six miles an hour with
Speaker 1: a softball. If you look at the laws, they where
Speaker 1: they applied it to Cape Buffalo, that's legal hunt Cape
Speaker 1: Buffalo with that's enough kinetic energy. They don't penetrate worth
Speaker 1: a damn on a Cape Buffalo. It'll make him real
Speaker 1: mad and probably get your pounder in the ground. Oh,
Speaker 1: I got what you're saying. You're saying that kinetic energy
Speaker 1: picture could take a baseball and get the right amount
Speaker 1: of Connecticut more than enough. He's legal. He's legal, he's illegal.
Speaker 1: I got what you're saying. Yeah, And that's one of
Speaker 1: the things the industry has applied for years. Because that
Speaker 1: have speed cell, they push kinetic energy because okay, we
Speaker 1: get this error going faster, we've got more kinetic energy. Wow.
Speaker 1: And Okay, you need this amount of kinetic energy. Now,
Speaker 1: look at all the things where you can see on
Speaker 1: the internet where they tell you you need this much
Speaker 1: kinetic energy for hunting amount an elk, and this much
Speaker 1: front to deer, this much fronting the black bear. Show me.
Speaker 1: One that tells you is that launch connetic energy or
Speaker 1: kinetic energy to impact? Nobody ever says down our study,
Speaker 1: we tracked the momentum and the connectic energy at impact
Speaker 1: as well as it launch. It's the impact one that counts,
Speaker 1: and that's one thing that that heavier error is going
Speaker 1: to carry out. There is that increased momentum to give
Speaker 1: you the penetration you need. And that's why eerroweights imported.
Speaker 1: Next factor seven we're up for seven now is the
Speaker 1: edge finish. We did some testing where we took multiple
Speaker 1: layers of fresh buffalo hide, which is about an inch thick.
Speaker 1: Talking like buffalo buffalo, Asian buffalo. Any of the buffalo
Speaker 1: Asian buffalo actually have a heavier hide across the shoulders
Speaker 1: and chest area. Then they're actually a tougher animal. In
Speaker 1: kate buffalo, bigger, bigger heart by full kg. But we
Speaker 1: made multiple layers of this and took a series of errors,
Speaker 1: and we we sharpened them by different methods. You're talking
Speaker 1: like you was taking green high, green high, fresh green
Speaker 1: high and sandwiching them, sandwiched them together, hung them up
Speaker 1: truck to pull them up. I mean they're heavy, and
Speaker 1: we would shoot them with these ferrets with the edge
Speaker 1: sharpened by different methods. And then we compared for each
Speaker 1: era individually. It's performance against itself with a different edge finish.
Speaker 1: And the worst edge is the old Howard Hills serrated
Speaker 1: edge where you take a file and drag it back
Speaker 1: across the broad head and you make all these little
Speaker 1: look like salt teeth. Run the file lately down wants
Speaker 1: to make a point forward because the first thing it
Speaker 1: does is load up with tissue and then it won't
Speaker 1: cut nothing, nothing at all. File sharpened edges were better,
Speaker 1: but they still do the same thing. My christophey, that
Speaker 1: they've still got I don't care how smooth you file it.
Speaker 1: It's still got these little rough areas if you look
Speaker 1: at it, their high magnification, and they do the same thing.
Speaker 1: They load up with fibers and they get dull a
Speaker 1: honed and stopped edge as thin and smooth and sharp
Speaker 1: as you can get it is your best edge, the
Speaker 1: thinnest so forth for that mechanical advantage we're talking about earlier,
Speaker 1: but honed and stropped where it is just there's not
Speaker 1: a rough place on it, not catching anything, not catching it.
Speaker 1: And actually once you get good at sharpening, as you
Speaker 1: get them that that finish, they actually feel less sharp.
Speaker 1: They're so smart they no longer will great gripped your tissue,
Speaker 1: so they don't they feel like they actually start dulling,
Speaker 1: but they're not. They're actually getting sharper. And you know,
Speaker 1: on the testing we sharpened every broadhead to that honed
Speaker 1: and stripped left. Otherwise the testing is not not valid.
Speaker 1: Now some broad heads that come in the package and
Speaker 1: say they're already factory sharp, well, we'll dress them that way,
Speaker 1: but then when we have to redo them, we'll have
Speaker 1: to sharp them. And you know, and see what they do.
Speaker 1: That one you see fishhooks. The advertise is chemically sharpened.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you get all sorts of stuff. Would you
Speaker 1: always buy that, man, I'm like, well that must be
Speaker 1: prete damn sharp. Yeah. Would you say that most broadheads
Speaker 1: coming out of the package are sharp enough? No, very
Speaker 1: few in the world are sharpened, But there are a couple.
Speaker 1: There are a couple that are sharp enough, but not many.
Speaker 1: And you like them spit shined you leathers drop them?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, well not just. I use a horse hide strap,
Speaker 1: which is probably the best leather strop you can get
Speaker 1: the rump the rump hide off the horse years ago.
Speaker 1: That used to be one leather. Yep, there's only one
Speaker 1: factory in the world that makes it. A leather is
Speaker 1: definitionally horse hide rump yep. Yep, no ship, only one place.
Speaker 1: The one factory in the world makes it in Chicago.
Speaker 1: It's the toughest leather in the world. And and I
Speaker 1: used uh, I used double sided and and one one
Speaker 1: side is uh finished with. I put polishing compoundering sixty
Speaker 1: tho grid and the other side has nothing on it.
Speaker 1: It's just the hide sixty grid sixty thou grid. But
Speaker 1: the other side that has nothing on it has been
Speaker 1: sanded down with ten thousand grid sandpaper to poloshy so
Speaker 1: that it's just a hard polished surface. And that punches
Speaker 1: some buffalo hide that'll punch through some buffs with with
Speaker 1: incredible difference in the penetration that you had. But it
Speaker 1: was consistent with every error. It didn't matter. For it's
Speaker 1: a three blade, four blade, whatever kind of head we used,
Speaker 1: the hone is dropped always penetrated the most, The file
Speaker 1: sharpened always was second, and the hill ones were always last.
Speaker 1: With all these different kinds of broad heads and different
Speaker 1: errors and different weight errors, but every error is compared
Speaker 1: only back to self, not to all the other errors.
Speaker 1: So it was strictly sharpening method that made the difference
Speaker 1: in penetration. I got a problem right now. So we're
Speaker 1: on seven. This is great, and I want to open
Speaker 1: up a real can of worms. But I want you
Speaker 1: to I want you to not take de bait too much.
Speaker 1: So like set a timer because we were going to
Speaker 1: get into this heavy duty but we're not gonna be
Speaker 1: able to work. I'm too I like the list too much. Now.
Speaker 1: Yanni was mentioned to me. I didn't know this. He
Speaker 1: was mentioned to me that you've spent time in Papua
Speaker 1: New Guinea. Yes, research and arrows. Yes. And I just
Speaker 1: want to bring up one anecdote, Okay, I just want
Speaker 1: you to very quickly address um ancestral archery technology real quick.
Speaker 1: And the anecdote is this, you know the guy we
Speaker 1: bought rush off of. Yeah, Alex that one of the
Speaker 1: tsars his kid. I think it was his twenty second
Speaker 1: birthday in eighteen seventy one, seventy two, his kid came
Speaker 1: out and went on a buffalo hunt with Custer Yeah,
Speaker 1: and wild Bill Cody. Afterward. I believe it was a
Speaker 1: I can't mamber if you Cheyenne. The guy went out
Speaker 1: rode up alongside of buffalo bison, not a buffalo. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know. Okay, But if I said I was going
Speaker 1: and if I said I was going to antelope hunting
Speaker 1: and Wyoming, would you be like, boy, I'm very confused
Speaker 1: right now, or would you know what I was talking about?
Speaker 1: Buffalo gets to be a very contentious terms about buffalo testing,
Speaker 1: they think, But I'm using it extremely intentionally. Uh What
Speaker 1: was I getting at Buffalo? He wrote up beside it
Speaker 1: and shotty, oh yeah, I once. Here's the funny store.
Speaker 1: I'll tell you real quick. When I was doing some
Speaker 1: research one time, and I was with these guys from
Speaker 1: the Buffalo Field Campaign, Okay, and these are like activists
Speaker 1: who were working to prevent state slaughter of bison leaving
Speaker 1: Yelsto National Park, but their organizations called the Buffalo Field Campaign.
Speaker 1: I'm standing there with the guy from the Buffalo Field campaign,
Speaker 1: and here comes the pronghorn running by, and I say, oh,
Speaker 1: there's an antelope. He goes, that's actually a prong horn. Yes,
Speaker 1: And I'm like, here, organizations named wrong, there's like popular terminology, right.
Speaker 1: So a bison, the American bison, the American bison punches, uh,
Speaker 1: punches a nail right through it and then presents the arrow.
Speaker 1: So pass through shop presents the arrow to whatever his
Speaker 1: name was, okay, and brings it home. Um. In your
Speaker 1: research of the planes bow archery tackle used in Papua
Speaker 1: New Guinea, Clovis points, have you found um different cultures
Speaker 1: that had uh? Have you found evidence of different cultures
Speaker 1: that accidentally or intentionally we're applying things that you're now
Speaker 1: impressed by? Have you found cultures that, man, how did
Speaker 1: they not realize? I think a lot of this stuff
Speaker 1: was known probably thousands of years ago, and we've lost
Speaker 1: We're just rediscovering what people need. If you look at
Speaker 1: Japanese eras, uh, you look at Chinese eras, these were
Speaker 1: high foc eras. Look at the medieval war eras, high
Speaker 1: foc eras, high mass. This stuff has been used all
Speaker 1: all around New Guineas, and not just because the limitations
Speaker 1: of the materials like evidence that there was like intentionally
Speaker 1: like could have been different, but was intentionally the The
Speaker 1: perfect example is New Guinea of intentional because I examined
Speaker 1: archery equipment that was pre World War Two, no steel available.
Speaker 1: The points are made of hardwood. The bowls were made
Speaker 1: of black palm. These are beautiful, graceful bowls would not
Speaker 1: look out of place at a at a primitive archery
Speaker 1: shoot now today. And the air shafts were much like
Speaker 1: we would think of the diameter of an air shaft,
Speaker 1: and the wooden points are quite long, made out of hardwood,
Speaker 1: but these eras were uh. I think the lowest that
Speaker 1: I measured was about which should be altered. Extreme f
Speaker 1: o z going up into the World War two comes
Speaker 1: along and all of a sudden, there's rebar. There're steel now.
Speaker 1: All the points are made out of steel. They're huge,
Speaker 1: looks like a spear. Well in order to use them,
Speaker 1: they had to go to a big cane shaft. They
Speaker 1: make these things. You know, they're five and a half
Speaker 1: six ft long, these eras. But even with that big shaft,
Speaker 1: these points weigh so much and we're talking to the light.
Speaker 1: Errors are on up three thousand and thirty five grains
Speaker 1: and go up, you know, well above four thousand grain eras.
Speaker 1: They couldn't get it to tune. And they actually tune
Speaker 1: their eras just like we do when we bear shaft,
Speaker 1: the same process off of their traditional bows. So what
Speaker 1: do they do? They change their entire bow. It is
Speaker 1: no longer you know, long um beautiful black palm. It
Speaker 1: is now seven and a half feet long. It's made
Speaker 1: out of bamboo. It's about that wide. Why is it
Speaker 1: that wide? If you put that era way over here,
Speaker 1: paradox that chaft can be in an old lot more
Speaker 1: in tune around to straight flight. But they build these
Speaker 1: heavy aras, no two errors alike, because they're just hammering
Speaker 1: them out. But they'll get up there and shoot that
Speaker 1: era and do just like we do. They'll keep shortening
Speaker 1: that shaft until it shoots straight. Now, they don't use
Speaker 1: any fletching, but there foc on the post World War
Speaker 1: two eras is even heavier. Most of those are above
Speaker 1: foc That's why I didn't get away with shooting them
Speaker 1: with no fletching whatsoever. Plus the factor not going very fast,
Speaker 1: which decreases the wind shear on the on the broadhead. Uh.
Speaker 1: I didn't have any way to measure the velocity. I
Speaker 1: didn't have a chronograph there or anything like that. And
Speaker 1: the bows both the pre World War two post World
Speaker 1: War two. Uh, they said the pre World War two
Speaker 1: bowls were about as heavy. And just pulling it, I
Speaker 1: would say it's in the eighty pound range is the
Speaker 1: typical boat um And the velocity I was the specter
Speaker 1: is less than a hundred feet per second m hm.
Speaker 1: And they consider out to twenty five meters good shooting range.
Speaker 1: And these guys are deadly with him. What are they hunting?
Speaker 1: Roosa deer and pigs? Those are the two commons. Roosa
Speaker 1: deer live out in bald open country floodplains. The only
Speaker 1: stalking youn do is just the role of the ground.
Speaker 1: And for whatever reason, they generally stalk three guys at
Speaker 1: a time, but only one shoots. And I watched them
Speaker 1: went out with one hunt and watched them from distance
Speaker 1: with the blocktors, I probably wouldn't get enough stalker to
Speaker 1: stay with them. And uh, they it's about a twenty
Speaker 1: five yards shot the guy took. Now, they traditionally carry
Speaker 1: three eras all three will be different and a blunt.
Speaker 1: And he took his heaviest era, which was about grains,
Speaker 1: is the one he chose to shoot, and plump drives
Speaker 1: this big head all the way sticking out the other
Speaker 1: side of the atom. Of course, the shaft is great, big.
Speaker 1: It stops at the shaft but points long enough it's
Speaker 1: coming out to the other side of the rooster. Dear. Yeah,
Speaker 1: when and when docs saying the points long, he's like showing, yeah,
Speaker 1: the short ones will be about a foot. Wellmber, those
Speaker 1: boys in Guyana when they had the like the tape
Speaker 1: year points yeah, I mean it's like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: eleven twelve inches of hammered thin steel. And I asked
Speaker 1: the guy. He had the best answer I've ever heard.
Speaker 1: I asked him he was one of the few that
Speaker 1: spoke in English, and why he chose that are out
Speaker 1: of his three because he was the heaviest area he
Speaker 1: had and the best answers there was works best all right,
Speaker 1: Number eight, Okay, the shaft profile, we actually touched him.
Speaker 1: We've talked about the parallel shaft, the taper shaft, and
Speaker 1: the barrel taper shaft. That's what we're looking at. Their
Speaker 1: Then the taper shaft works the best parallel shaft as
Speaker 1: long as it's not bigger than the farrel works really well.
Speaker 1: It's probably the standard most people would go by. And
Speaker 1: the barrel taper shaft is definitely the worst, no question
Speaker 1: about it. And uh oh yeah, that's enough on that one.
Speaker 1: Then we talked about the broad head and an air
Speaker 1: of silhouette, and we touched on that too. You want
Speaker 1: the smoothest transition you can get. You don't want any lumps, bumps,
Speaker 1: spot wells, uh trash, abrupt transitions and stealth bomber other
Speaker 1: than the step down you might get just back of
Speaker 1: the farrel to the shaft. You do not want a
Speaker 1: bump on that era if you can avoid it. Sometimes
Speaker 1: you can't avoid it, like put that old turbulator on there.
Speaker 1: But that's a little We actually used model airplane pin
Speaker 1: stripe that's about six minute wide, no maybe even smaller
Speaker 1: than that, very narrow, just enough to disrupt that lambent
Speaker 1: or airflow. You remember, remember delta broadheads from a long
Speaker 1: time ago. I have a deer skull that's got one
Speaker 1: of those rattling around inside the dad shot in the
Speaker 1: shot the deer in the forehead, um it has serrated bleeders,
Speaker 1: so it's got double beveled. But then they would put
Speaker 1: little bleeders there and the bleeders are serrated. Uh, you
Speaker 1: don't like that profile because that's that's a double sin,
Speaker 1: right said. So it made it past that because they
Speaker 1: had a heck of a bump. Yeah no, it's it's
Speaker 1: rattling around and it's awesome. Yeah, Well, I prob they
Speaker 1: had They knew where a deer was feeding alongside a
Speaker 1: road and it was very accustomed to vehicular traffic. So
Speaker 1: he had his friend. He opened the door on a
Speaker 1: van and he had his friend drive very slowly. He
Speaker 1: rolled out of the moving van with the with the
Speaker 1: re curve, and then that dud would just watched cars
Speaker 1: go by. And he rolled out of the van while
Speaker 1: I was moving, rolls up and shot and she like
Speaker 1: took notice something she had swung her head around. It
Speaker 1: punched right in the forehead. So I gotta hang it
Speaker 1: on my wall with that thing. Guy. Only other guy
Speaker 1: in my county that but one beside me shot one
Speaker 1: in the forehead, did not get it. It ran off
Speaker 1: for the air across fifty yards open field by a unicorn.
Speaker 1: That does that does a lot of good for pr
Speaker 1: Can you can you touch on I guess while we're
Speaker 1: talking about bleeder blades, just why I guess I can
Speaker 1: tell you why people think they're good right because it
Speaker 1: gives you, like another access of a cut. There's more
Speaker 1: things they have lost, the premise of it. I had.
Speaker 1: I had the honor of actually hunting with Fred there.
Speaker 1: I heard him tell list around the campfire. I had
Speaker 1: lunch with him and yeah, nice guy Acroan Ohio. He uh.
Speaker 1: He said that the bleeder, the original bleeder blade if
Speaker 1: you've seen the original bear razor heads were made out
Speaker 1: of that hard blue carbon steel. He said. The purpose
Speaker 1: of that is as soon as it hits a hard
Speaker 1: surface like a bone, its shatters, then the broad hid
Speaker 1: can carry on like a normal single blade broadhead is
Speaker 1: only to open a bigger hole in the soft tissue
Speaker 1: to reduce the drag of the shaft. Where you hoping,
Speaker 1: Fred Bear, he came to the least that Bob Lee
Speaker 1: had Uh sod Ben Pierson, Yeah, I gotta be good,
Speaker 1: pretty good friends with Ben Pierson. I picked up a
Speaker 1: lot of valuable shooting information from him. So the blades
Speaker 1: just got misnamed. Well, no, people said oh, these blades
Speaker 1: break off and they leave blades in the meat, and
Speaker 1: somebody made eat them. So they started to make him
Speaker 1: out of stuff that would ben and then destroyed the
Speaker 1: whole inceptive at working. Now I just increase error drag
Speaker 1: and you just ruined your penetration. But that wasn't the
Speaker 1: intent when Fred Bare designed him. He had the design right,
Speaker 1: if you're gonna use a bleeder blade, that's the one
Speaker 1: you want. And so bleeder blades they're advertised or put
Speaker 1: onto broadheads. Now they're just reducing your drag. But they've
Speaker 1: been pretty easy, most of them, because the very thing
Speaker 1: instead of breaking shattering like the original bleeder blades on
Speaker 1: the bear razor head, they've been once you could be
Speaker 1: in like that tiny tip Ben, when we're talking about
Speaker 1: just they I mean almost as small you can hardly
Speaker 1: see it. That's looses of the penetration. Just that little band.
Speaker 1: And what's the band of any kind gonna do. It's
Speaker 1: going to read that direct the path of that era.
Speaker 1: What's that gonna do? The shaft, Now, the shaft has
Speaker 1: got to try to make this be in pushing all
Speaker 1: that tissue, it just kills your penetration. It just doesn't
Speaker 1: work at all. That's why structural integrity is the number
Speaker 1: one thing. Okay, we're down number ten, which we've already
Speaker 1: touched on, is going through the type of edge bevel
Speaker 1: through soft tissue. I thought that was earlier on the thing. No,
Speaker 1: we just got off on it because we were talking
Speaker 1: about edge thickness and stuff. That's why don't remember me
Speaker 1: saying I thought you you described for like it was
Speaker 1: for A, B and C. No, it is just we
Speaker 1: we just got off on it. So way down to
Speaker 1: number ten, the type of edge bevel you do get
Speaker 1: an increase in penetration. And we used it with different profiles, broadheads,
Speaker 1: identical identical error set ups. You know, compared double bevel
Speaker 1: to single bevel, you get an increase in penetration even
Speaker 1: a soft tissue with a single bevel. And this was
Speaker 1: one of the things in the testing that had a
Speaker 1: hundred percent frequency. It happened every time and looking at
Speaker 1: no matter what you hit, yeah with well a soft
Speaker 1: tissue with bone, it's even more start because the single
Speaker 1: bevel torqus and pops that bone. You get a massive
Speaker 1: increase in average penetration. Are mean or media median or minimum,
Speaker 1: you know, any any of the factors you want to
Speaker 1: take out maximum penetration on every area. You can look
Speaker 1: at that, you know, full graph, compare any of them
Speaker 1: back and forth. You always have a higher percentage of
Speaker 1: penetration with a single vel, and it was frequency in
Speaker 1: the testing. So it is important, particularly on bone though,
Speaker 1: that's where it makes the biggest difference, and a lot
Speaker 1: of that is the higher mechanical advantage of the edge
Speaker 1: less resistance. Going through slice is easier, it is more work.
Speaker 1: Was he applied force? It penetrates more, just as simple physics, No,
Speaker 1: nothing magic about it. I want to remember how we
Speaker 1: wedge that traditional bit in between whatever, like eight and nine.
Speaker 1: I want to wedge something in here. Okay, talk about um.
Speaker 1: Apparently you're talking to Yanni about this about shooting animals
Speaker 1: and propping them up and shooting them. Yeah, that's the
Speaker 1: way we did most of the testing on freshy, cold animals.
Speaker 1: You put the animal down, you got thirty minutes. So
Speaker 1: this is just so again, let's bring it back to
Speaker 1: like the beginning. This is like when you talk about
Speaker 1: the study. This is the study. This isn't like the
Speaker 1: last you were because earlier you said, oh, the last
Speaker 1: six hundred animals that have come in. Those animals are
Speaker 1: separate database, and we used the hunted animals as a
Speaker 1: cross reference. Are we seeing the same thing that the
Speaker 1: setup shots on these fresh down day animals are indicating?
Speaker 1: And yes we did. So this was this was what
Speaker 1: you called the the tallest study. No, the tall study
Speaker 1: is where it started with. And those were actually hunted animals.
Speaker 1: So then you went to a place where, like explained,
Speaker 1: because we still I don't think anybody knows exactly like
Speaker 1: when the study happened, what it was, where you were,
Speaker 1: what the animals were. All I said at the time
Speaker 1: I got through with it a tall study, I had
Speaker 1: more questions than I did going in, and so I said, okay,
Speaker 1: you know, I want to carry on with this. And
Speaker 1: so I would do as many autopsies on animals as
Speaker 1: I could. I made several trips back and forth Africa.
Speaker 1: But then it really kicked up when I retired, and
Speaker 1: the first four years I was over there, I spent
Speaker 1: at least three hundred days a year hunting. Now that
Speaker 1: was either guiding or which I didn't do a lot
Speaker 1: of are are hunting on my own, shooting animals, and
Speaker 1: UH would do buffalo whenever we could, like probably we'd
Speaker 1: go into Mozambie can do the buffalo over there, uh
Speaker 1: and collect as much dat as we possibly could. Then
Speaker 1: after I got thrown out of Zimbabwe when they kicked
Speaker 1: all the Americans out uh that weren't didn't have permanent residency,
Speaker 1: I came back to the state's regroup and went down
Speaker 1: to Australia and spent time in Australia, New Zealand and
Speaker 1: New Guinea, all that area down there. But through contacts
Speaker 1: I ran in a guy he used to be the
Speaker 1: chief game ranger up in Kacadoo Park uh and Australia
Speaker 1: of the Northern Territory. He shot who knows, thirty forty
Speaker 1: thousand buffalo you know, back when they're trying to eradicate
Speaker 1: because they're like a nine native. Yeah, so they were
Speaker 1: for years tried to eradicate him and his his son
Speaker 1: is still one of the park rangers there, probably thirty
Speaker 1: forty of them. And because they out him from everything, cars, helicopters, boats, anywhere,
Speaker 1: they could shoot him of any any buffalo you saw
Speaker 1: you shot, uh, And we're not able to knock the
Speaker 1: population down. So after he retired, he talked the government
Speaker 1: of the Fishing Game Department into establishing a study where
Speaker 1: he fenced in I don't know, it's about seven miles
Speaker 1: by seven miles high fence. Uh And he's trying to
Speaker 1: determine the carrying capacity without damaging the habitat for the
Speaker 1: buffalo and he has to take about five hundred a
Speaker 1: year off two keep the population at a level that
Speaker 1: won't damage the habitat, or at least they think it's
Speaker 1: not gonna damage it. And uh so I got and
Speaker 1: and and he's sort of a reclusive don't take to
Speaker 1: everybody and think I'll live in the middle of nowhere.
Speaker 1: He's really in the middle of nowhere. And uh we
Speaker 1: just hit it off. And he used to do a
Speaker 1: lot of testing while he's calling all these animals for
Speaker 1: Woodley bullets because he's got a huge collection of firearms,
Speaker 1: a lot of double rifles, British shotguns. Oh, I mean,
Speaker 1: he's got a literally see container full of them. And
Speaker 1: uh so, I you know, when I went up there
Speaker 1: and met him through through a client that I had
Speaker 1: guided in Australia that knew it, and uh we we
Speaker 1: hit it off. And he said, you know, yeah, listen
Speaker 1: let's come on up and said when when we're shooting
Speaker 1: buffalo year around, said, come up and we'll you know,
Speaker 1: we'll shoot the buffalo. We'll set up you know, when
Speaker 1: you can test your arabs on him. And he thought
Speaker 1: it was fascinating. So the other guys work for the
Speaker 1: park there, the other game rangers, and had a lot
Speaker 1: of them come out and watch. They were absolutely fascinating
Speaker 1: what we're doing with eras. And uh so I would
Speaker 1: go up there three months a year and we would
Speaker 1: do as many buffaloes as we could do. And I
Speaker 1: could do because of all the stuff you got to do,
Speaker 1: the record keeping, the reaching a broad heads, the building
Speaker 1: of new error setups and things you want to test
Speaker 1: the most I can do with one buffalo every three
Speaker 1: days and and get done. Uh. And we would go
Speaker 1: out and he would get on the four wheel er.
Speaker 1: I would follow him and and uh, we find a buffalo,
Speaker 1: will cary all the gear with us, and he'd shoot
Speaker 1: the buffalo, put it down usually head shot, next shot
Speaker 1: something like that. We get there, prop it up, do
Speaker 1: our shooting, and then collect all of our data. And
Speaker 1: then I would go back and you know, do die
Speaker 1: and carry parts of it back to dissect and uh,
Speaker 1: we're had error stuck in the bones and stuff like that,
Speaker 1: and and uh that I'd write all the recordings down
Speaker 1: and then resharpen everything, get ready to variables variables on there.
Speaker 1: And that's everything from uh you know the bowl, uh,
Speaker 1: the launch kinetic energy to launch momentum, the impact momentum,
Speaker 1: what tip of animal it was, what distance was shot at, uh,
Speaker 1: what bones were hit. So you've got to make it
Speaker 1: easier because you know, I didn't have a true database
Speaker 1: computer wise, so I have a field there like it's
Speaker 1: this entrance rib hit. Yes, no industry of penetrating and
Speaker 1: penetrate means passed completely through if it just sticks out
Speaker 1: together side, he didn't penetrate it. The bone stopped the hair.
Speaker 1: I mean the broadhead had passed through the whole, because
Speaker 1: the broad head had to completely pass through the bone
Speaker 1: to consider it penetrating. And then you would carry on
Speaker 1: through other bones and organs of what was hit. You know,
Speaker 1: the extra ribs it hit was scapula hit. You know
Speaker 1: it was a spinal he had spinal process um you know,
Speaker 1: depending on what you're shooting at, pelvic girdle, neck, vertebra. Uh,
Speaker 1: So you've got all these bones in there, so you
Speaker 1: can go through it and look for something in a
Speaker 1: in a It's in a spreadsheet, so I had limited
Speaker 1: search if ability. But I could say, you know, all
Speaker 1: of the trophy sized bull um asian buffalo uh hit
Speaker 1: from a twenty degree angle uh impacting the ribs, and
Speaker 1: I'd get all of those, and then I can go
Speaker 1: back and get the same thing and say, give me
Speaker 1: all the single bevels that did that. Give me the
Speaker 1: results from all of the UH E f O C
Speaker 1: eras that did that, or the ULTRAFC eras, and that
Speaker 1: way you can start comparing stuff. Okay, here's averages for this,
Speaker 1: here's average and take out. Okay, these are double bevel broadheads,
Speaker 1: let's get those, you know, let's get single bevel broadheads.
Speaker 1: And so you can start getting all these sets of
Speaker 1: data to compare back and forth to each other, where
Speaker 1: you can look at what was the minimum penetration, what
Speaker 1: was the maximum uh. And then you've got fields and
Speaker 1: every where you described stuff too that really didn't fit in,
Speaker 1: like bone skips and things like that. U up. So
Speaker 1: you got one field that's just free field, described the shot,
Speaker 1: the tissue damage, the whatever you wanted to describe it
Speaker 1: there and uh on that one when you when we've
Speaker 1: got links for photos, I said, it's a bad photographer.
Speaker 1: Didn't have anything like that. So I had to keep
Speaker 1: tracking what was what with photos just you know, in
Speaker 1: a book, so just one like one aspect of this.
Speaker 1: What were the when you were doing this? What were
Speaker 1: the shot distances for instances uniform? All of those are
Speaker 1: taken at a measured twenty yards. And then how many
Speaker 1: total shots wouldn't probably have five thousand and how many
Speaker 1: animals I don't know, never counted him. And but you
Speaker 1: had thirty minutes before Rigor would impact though you had
Speaker 1: about thirty minutes. Now in warm weather you might have
Speaker 1: a little bit more than that. But we we put
Speaker 1: it down in thirty minutes, and we stayed in thirty
Speaker 1: minutes because even in what we cool weather down there,
Speaker 1: because I went once in December, I'll never do it
Speaker 1: again to the Northern Territory of Australia. That was miserable.
Speaker 1: We know a Rigor Moore to specialists, if you ever
Speaker 1: want to talk to him, there you go University Nebraska. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Dr Chris Calkins, but he's picky about Caulkins or Calkins, Caulkins,
Speaker 1: rigor Moore to specialist. There you go. Yeah, well we
Speaker 1: did ours on the basis of okay, you know in
Speaker 1: the early days. Yeah, we get past this. Okay, we're
Speaker 1: seeing a difference in outcomes, so we gotta cut this
Speaker 1: off here these so these way this this didn't doesn't
Speaker 1: correlate with what we got before. Okay, what number were on?
Speaker 1: Where are we design? We should have done this interstitial
Speaker 1: thing idea? Yeah, dude, what we did was tip of
Speaker 1: design was I took a series of broadheads Dennick Lara setups.
Speaker 1: These are all single blade broadheads. Let's say the number again,
Speaker 1: what number number eleven? And what is it? Tip design tip? Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. And what we did was put different tip profiles,
Speaker 1: and we use seven different tip profiles because that goes
Speaker 1: against your whole mechanical advantage thing. Reason for that, we
Speaker 1: were looking at a number of things. He's holding up,
Speaker 1: he's looking at it. We're looking at a point that
Speaker 1: has a earlier what he would describe as a very
Speaker 1: high mechanical advantage angle profile or whatever the hell. But
Speaker 1: then it's got a little chisel point on it, like
Speaker 1: chisel is different. Name these things. What's that like knives?
Speaker 1: They call that what tanto? It's got a tanto point.
Speaker 1: It looks like two tanto points put back to back.
Speaker 1: So that's that's what it named. And that name is
Speaker 1: called on It just stuck through the years, Uh, just
Speaker 1: because I had to have something to call it when
Speaker 1: I was doing the testing. Um. But we tried all
Speaker 1: the different points, and we were looking at durability and
Speaker 1: skip angle. Now skip angle is a big important factor.
Speaker 1: The others like a skip like all hell, it doesn't. No,
Speaker 1: this actually was the best design of all at the
Speaker 1: lowest skip angle and the highest durability of all the
Speaker 1: ones we tested. Now, if you could get a needle
Speaker 1: tip that wouldn't damage, it might do as well. But
Speaker 1: I never could find one that didn't damage well the
Speaker 1: way until different materials come. Well, this this came by
Speaker 1: far the best, and we're one of the things gonna
Speaker 1: look at and I tried to determine it and we're
Speaker 1: gonna be able to find out with that high speed
Speaker 1: camera is I tried different sharpening profiles on this tanto tip. Uh,
Speaker 1: single bevel on the same side, single bevel on the
Speaker 1: opposite side, and double bevel, and I was never able
Speaker 1: to tell which one truly worked the best, particularly for
Speaker 1: skip angle. What is skip angle? Well, when the an
Speaker 1: airy hits the bone, most bones are designed to redirect forces.
Speaker 1: They're they're not only just hold the body up to
Speaker 1: protect the body, so they curve multiple directions. So it's
Speaker 1: pretty rare to be able to hit a bone square.
Speaker 1: It's one of the reasons the buffalo it's such a
Speaker 1: nice test ad because they have very broad, wide ribs,
Speaker 1: so you can almost get a square impact. Or like
Speaker 1: we did, you put a protractor out here, You take
Speaker 1: a string, you measure the angle, and you shoot at
Speaker 1: various So the skip angle describes the angle of the bone,
Speaker 1: not the angle of impact between the broad heads and
Speaker 1: the bone. Yes, and that's really important, like guys hung
Speaker 1: out tree stands and stuff, because now they're looking down
Speaker 1: at ribs and think of the curves that are involved.
Speaker 1: And it's not uncommon to hit one of those ribs
Speaker 1: and have the air actually right around the outside curve
Speaker 1: of those ribs and go into the ground. And a
Speaker 1: lot of people it happens so fast they think they've
Speaker 1: shot through. The animal in the air never got into
Speaker 1: the chest cabin. You just wanted the skin. I think
Speaker 1: people from eating beef ribs. You know, people get a
Speaker 1: wrong idea what a deer's rib looks like. When you
Speaker 1: actually take a deer's rib out, that's some bitches round. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's not. It's not a flat face. Most ribs are
Speaker 1: that way. Yea. Yeah, the bigger the animal gets, the
Speaker 1: flatter the rib. Elephant ribbs got a big flat giraffe,
Speaker 1: big flat, hippo's big flat buffalo rude to smaller flat.
Speaker 1: It's pretty round. Yeah, the smaller the animal gets, the
Speaker 1: more round they are. Brown bears almost perfectly round, right,
Speaker 1: it's real round. I feel like this would be a
Speaker 1: good time to talk about bone busting arrow and whether
Speaker 1: it's a real thing or if it's a myth. One
Speaker 1: more and we'll do. Just didn't because the next thing
Speaker 1: coming up factor number twelve at the bottom of the list,
Speaker 1: because it's only important when you hit a heavy bone.
Speaker 1: Is an erraw mass or an arrow weight above the
Speaker 1: heavy bone threshold? Read that one of me again. It's
Speaker 1: arraw weight if you want to think of it that way,
Speaker 1: above the heavy bone threshold. Okay, that's gonna require a
Speaker 1: lot of explanation. It does, and Most people have it
Speaker 1: wrong because they read what's there and they see six
Speaker 1: fifty grains heavy bone threshold and they think, Okay, I
Speaker 1: got six grains air. It's gonna break heavy bone every time. Wrong.
Speaker 1: What we found is that every broadhead, doesn't matter how
Speaker 1: poor it is or how good it is, shows an increase,
Speaker 1: a marked increase in the bone breaching rate of heavy
Speaker 1: bone when the air and mass reaches right at the
Speaker 1: sifty grain, and it's literally within a few grains one
Speaker 1: way or the other of the six fifty. And it
Speaker 1: doesn't seem to vary whether you're shooting a compound or
Speaker 1: whether you're shooting a longboat or recurve with it. Very
Speaker 1: if you shot at at a hundred ft a second
Speaker 1: ort a second, not not much at all, doesn't seem
Speaker 1: to make any difference at all. Uh, when we've tried it,
Speaker 1: we're gonna do some more of it. It's some more
Speaker 1: verification of it, but at some point it should if
Speaker 1: we can get enough force, it should make a difference.
Speaker 1: But so far we don't have that. Um the basic premises,
Speaker 1: like we're talking about, the bones are there to protect
Speaker 1: the body, so they have all of these curves and
Speaker 1: bands but they also have articulations, so if they move,
Speaker 1: they also are flexible. They will flex. So when the
Speaker 1: error hits, it's got to push on this bone long
Speaker 1: enough to overcome the movement of the bone, the flexion
Speaker 1: of the bone before it ever starts to penetrate the bone.
Speaker 1: And that depends on how long it's able to push
Speaker 1: the impulse of force. And it's strictly weight related. So
Speaker 1: if you took a real poor broad head, took a
Speaker 1: muzzy bad to the bone, Yeah, it's bad to the bone,
Speaker 1: all right, Okay, it's it's it's going to have a
Speaker 1: pretty low penetration in heavy bone. It's not a great
Speaker 1: broad head for breaching heavy bone, and it might give
Speaker 1: you blow blow the heavy bone threshold. Get it above
Speaker 1: the heavy bone threshold, it might jump to. But you
Speaker 1: take the best broadheads, and it doesn't matter if the
Speaker 1: single bevel or double bevel. The best design broadheads good
Speaker 1: mechanical advantage two point six or higher seemed to be
Speaker 1: where the cutoff was on. There was the two point
Speaker 1: six uh bolow the heavy bone threshold. They might have
Speaker 1: a seven eight bone breaching right you hit the threshold,
Speaker 1: it is consistently and it doesn't matter if I shoot
Speaker 1: it with a forty pound re curve or shoot it
Speaker 1: with a compound. It worked. The foc of the ERA
Speaker 1: had no effect on heavy bone threshold strictly how long
Speaker 1: it was able to push on the bone. But once
Speaker 1: you can breach that bone, then the foc becomes really
Speaker 1: important because the post breaching penetration is going to depend
Speaker 1: on that foc because now that air is flying again.
Speaker 1: It's flying while it's putting on that bone too, but
Speaker 1: as it's also going to slow down the back of it.
Speaker 1: Wanta Flex FLC has a lot of that reduced impact
Speaker 1: paradox we were talking about. So it's gonna cut down
Speaker 1: the drag a lot once we breached that bone. But
Speaker 1: that's where the heavy bone threshold comes in. It does
Speaker 1: not mean that you can take a muzzy and put
Speaker 1: it on a six fifty grain ERA and go out
Speaker 1: and break health shoulders ain't gonna happen. But you put
Speaker 1: a good broadhead, quality steel, durable spit shine dropped home
Speaker 1: durable point on there. That's not gonna be skitting off
Speaker 1: bones everywhere. And yes, when we looked at the penetration
Speaker 1: sumized eras these were all uh e f O c eras.
Speaker 1: I don't think rae ultra is in there at all,
Speaker 1: and we're using several different bows. We had a hundred
Speaker 1: and nineties six hundred ninety six shots, eighteen percent of
Speaker 1: those with a forty pound bare formula silver recurve traveling
Speaker 1: at a velocity of a massive hundred and nineteen feet
Speaker 1: per second shot at twenty yards on buffalo, and go
Speaker 1: all the way up to eighty two pound bows. So
Speaker 1: we had we had the forty pound, we had a
Speaker 1: fifty four pound long bowl, we had a uh seventy pound,
Speaker 1: sixty four pound longbow, seventy pound long sixty two, sixty
Speaker 1: two pound longbow, seventy pound long bowl, and eighty two
Speaker 1: pound and all of these errors had a dent breaching
Speaker 1: rate hundred ninety six shots on trophy size consecutive consecutive
Speaker 1: trophy size buffalo. What bone this is the ribs, which
Speaker 1: is about eight inch eight tenths of an inch of
Speaker 1: pretty solid bone, so heavier than the scapul and the
Speaker 1: elk oh, yeah, heavier than the scapul on help absolutely,
Speaker 1: and all of these errors would have been every factor
Speaker 1: on there penetration maximized. Mm hmm Okay, let's do this
Speaker 1: real quick. What should what should folks be like? What
Speaker 1: should folks be using? Well, that depends on what they're
Speaker 1: willing to live with. Any factor you use, you think
Speaker 1: of these as a tool box. Any factor you put
Speaker 1: off that list and add to your error that you're
Speaker 1: currently using is going to improve the performance of that error.
Speaker 1: But what do you mean what they're willing to live with? Well,
Speaker 1: some people won't. They have this mindset that, oh, if
Speaker 1: I shoot a six fifth grain Era, my trajectory is
Speaker 1: just gonna boom if I shoot you hear it all
Speaker 1: the time. If I shoot an e fo c Era,
Speaker 1: he's just gonna go out their nose dive. It doesn't.
Speaker 1: It actually shoots flatter. If you take two errors that
Speaker 1: are the exact same except for the foc shot out
Speaker 1: of the same boat, the foc or ultra e fo
Speaker 1: c era is going to shoot flatter, so because it's
Speaker 1: conserving energy from the paradox coming off of the boat. Yeah,
Speaker 1: do you I mean, do you think it's fair to
Speaker 1: say that people's um that people are prioritizing target, their
Speaker 1: prioritizing target shooting over killing, their prioritizing hitting the animals,
Speaker 1: that are killing the animal, and the emphasis needs to
Speaker 1: be on killing the animal. And there is what we
Speaker 1: try to talk about, you know a little bit with
Speaker 1: some of the new stuff that we well, we've got
Speaker 1: a couple of the videos out now that that Darryl
Speaker 1: and Troy did. UH. The the parable of the shot,
Speaker 1: the lighter era as it goes out once it starts
Speaker 1: to lose velocity. The heavier era, even though it's slower,
Speaker 1: doesn't do that. It doesn't knows dive like that. It
Speaker 1: carries it on through. So as you get to these
Speaker 1: longer ranges, it actually carries It's not not the big
Speaker 1: drop that people are expecting when you get out there.
Speaker 1: And this is some actual data using those Doppler uh
Speaker 1: and you a whole series of tuned arras, all all
Speaker 1: these tuned to the bows. So so we're starting to
Speaker 1: collect the hard data on this that is it's not
Speaker 1: what people are thinking is. And the pin gaps, if
Speaker 1: you look at the pin gaps with the light eras
Speaker 1: they go like this like this, you get longer range,
Speaker 1: you get bigger and bigger pin gaps. With these heavy errors,
Speaker 1: you don't the pin gaps sticking system stay consistent all
Speaker 1: the way down because it's carrying that parable of the
Speaker 1: trajectory out better. You could probably explain this better than me,
Speaker 1: that my forte is from when it hitstilly gets out
Speaker 1: of them. So, uh, what would be like in your mind? Um,
Speaker 1: if you're just gonna throw something like hard and fasts,
Speaker 1: people should be thinking about if they're if they're focusing
Speaker 1: on killing the animal, they should be thinking about broadheads
Speaker 1: and the what they should be thinking about these factors
Speaker 1: and what they do to their air performance? And in
Speaker 1: the what grain weight? Well, myself sifty grains. I will
Speaker 1: not shoot an error below that in a game. And
Speaker 1: what weight broadhead? I try to get the highest f
Speaker 1: oc I can with the light of shaft. So I
Speaker 1: generally am using three grain plus broadheads on brass or
Speaker 1: steel inserts uh to get as much weight as it
Speaker 1: can up front, generally with sometimes with internal footing behind
Speaker 1: that in the shaft are a collar on the front,
Speaker 1: uh to you have the shaft not being driven in
Speaker 1: um and keep it from fracturing up front. Um, but
Speaker 1: I'm trying to put. What I'm trying to do is
Speaker 1: get as much weight into this little ball as I can.
Speaker 1: If you could make all the way to that era,
Speaker 1: a neutron side sucker penetrate to the tank wanted. Now
Speaker 1: neutron bombs do it. Yeah, it sounds like bo hunters
Speaker 1: need a science lesson. Well, a lot of it does
Speaker 1: because they've this stuff has been sold to them in
Speaker 1: magazines for the last seventy years. That all speed, speed, speed, light, fast,
Speaker 1: multiply broadheads, they cut bigger holes, they bleed more. Now.
Speaker 1: I tried doing I tried doing some blood trail data,
Speaker 1: and uh, with a set of animals, you don't get
Speaker 1: a lot of it. But if I had to put
Speaker 1: it down, the blood trail has no bearing on the
Speaker 1: broad heads you use. What's going to matter is where
Speaker 1: you hit that animal, what you hit inside that animal,
Speaker 1: Do you have an exit wound, and where does that
Speaker 1: exit moon to locate. If you've got a high entrance,
Speaker 1: high exit, you could have fifteen blades. You're gonna have
Speaker 1: a poor broad blood trail if you hit him in
Speaker 1: the back and it comes out his stern um. I
Speaker 1: don't care. If you're shooting a field point, you're gonna
Speaker 1: have a blood trailer. You know. That's interesting. I had
Speaker 1: a client once hit an elk with like a three
Speaker 1: thirty eight windmag I believe it was hit him high.
Speaker 1: Eventually we found him, but guess what we didn't have
Speaker 1: something happens with guns. Ye, not been of difference. All
Speaker 1: the bloods inside the cabin. How to fill up they're bleeding,
Speaker 1: but yeah, it takes a while to fill it. Like
Speaker 1: just cavity ups big. That's a big pot of blood.
Speaker 1: That blood is gonna collect in the air and it's
Speaker 1: gonna collapse lungs. So not only is he dive from
Speaker 1: ass of blood, but it's going to get the force
Speaker 1: harder and harder for him to travel. And that's what
Speaker 1: you're trying to do this when you want hopefully two
Speaker 1: holes through the lungs. If you can get that, then
Speaker 1: you get that numal thora actually start to collapse those
Speaker 1: lungs and he doesn't travel. As for all right, tell
Speaker 1: everybody how to find you, Well, you need to go
Speaker 1: to h Ashby Bow Hunting dot org. We are a
Speaker 1: five old, one c three nonprofit. None of the people
Speaker 1: are salary to. Everybody is a volunteer. That all the
Speaker 1: officers everything, and we'll take donations from individuals, won't take
Speaker 1: them from archery industry. Now, if somebody works in the
Speaker 1: archery industry and wants to donate as an individual, but
Speaker 1: it's not gonna buy any special access or special treatment
Speaker 1: in any way. And if you okay, and then just
Speaker 1: to get the so if you want to see so,
Speaker 1: so you guys at Grizzly Stick, make a point that
Speaker 1: is the closest like it's the closest manifestation of what
Speaker 1: you would argue to be the point we were talking
Speaker 1: last night. If if I'm picking a point to hunt
Speaker 1: with the day, there are only two. Now, there might
Speaker 1: be some others that haven't been tested yet, so I
Speaker 1: don't want to rule them out, but ones that have
Speaker 1: been tested thoroughly that I know work, is only two
Speaker 1: that I would use. One is the astuty broad head,
Speaker 1: which looks just about like that, and the other one,
Speaker 1: uh is the tough head, the three gin tough head,
Speaker 1: the original one. And because those work. Now, I did
Speaker 1: a lot of testing with very narrow broad heads where
Speaker 1: I were taking these and working them down, uh to
Speaker 1: well blow an inch diameter because you've got a lot
Speaker 1: of loss to say, you gotta have an inch diameter
Speaker 1: broad head or inch and an eighth or something like
Speaker 1: that in various places works just fine. It kills buffalo,
Speaker 1: it'll kill white tails. Can't necessarily go the other way around.
Speaker 1: You know, people missed that thing. You know, Like I said,
Speaker 1: I like to carry one an era. I don't care
Speaker 1: what I encounter. I'm ready to shooting. Uh. Do you
Speaker 1: guys get any donations. We're just really getting started with
Speaker 1: him coming in, but we're getting some coming in. And
Speaker 1: we're in the process now of doing some grant requests
Speaker 1: from you know, like Dallas far Club and people like that.
Speaker 1: And uh. And you don't feel like that's gonna you
Speaker 1: don't feel that's gonna lead to industry manipulation. It's gonna
Speaker 1: have to be it's gonna have to be a grant
Speaker 1: and no strings attached period. God, if they're strings attached,
Speaker 1: we ain't doing it. We've had some people in the
Speaker 1: archery industry want to donate, and no, not like those
Speaker 1: guys the tobacco industry hires and show the tobacco good
Speaker 1: for you, all right, ask me Bow Hunting Foundation. Yes,
Speaker 1: go to it, look at it. Donate if you want
Speaker 1: to find out, if you want to support research that
Speaker 1: finds out what really works, what doesn't work, and and
Speaker 1: what the money goes for, Like senators. No salaries involved.
Speaker 1: Is buying the equipment. Why we're buying this high speed camera?
Speaker 1: We bought this, brought these doctor radar chronographs. Do you
Speaker 1: do Q and as with people like if they go like, hey,
Speaker 1: what about this? Do you reply to him? Oh? Yeah,
Speaker 1: We've got a place in there that they can ask
Speaker 1: questions and and we'll give me answers, you know what
Speaker 1: answer we can give them. And the guys volunteer a
Speaker 1: lot of time. They uh, they build even to the
Speaker 1: point of building up air setups for people, Um you
Speaker 1: know that that are going hunt a cape buffalo or
Speaker 1: something and I've never done him. Um. So they actually
Speaker 1: do a hand a lot of hands on for individuals
Speaker 1: and it's called ask ashpy but but it's it's it's
Speaker 1: routed to whichever one of us on the board is
Speaker 1: is most qualified nanswer, cause my hands are getting where
Speaker 1: I can hardly do anything with them. If they can answer,
Speaker 1: they answer. If they can, it comes to me, got it?
Speaker 1: And if I can't answer it, I tell them I
Speaker 1: don't know. You know, that's we're doing testing. Owner are Hey,
Speaker 1: that's something we're gonna add to the testing. That's a
Speaker 1: good idea, you know, they're just stuff, you know, people
Speaker 1: are good about doing that, and and we have become
Speaker 1: involved with one of the big things with Texas Parks
Speaker 1: and Wildlife. We're affiliated with them, so we put on
Speaker 1: programs teaching this type stuff to the Bowl Hunter Education instructors,
Speaker 1: so we trained them in that and UH we worked
Speaker 1: with FAZA, the Professional Hunter Association of South Africa and
Speaker 1: the one in the media also and we're trying to
Speaker 1: set up one in Zambia. Working with that, we supplied
Speaker 1: a lot of information that went over to Russia where
Speaker 1: they illegalized winning last year UH and looking at Germany,
Speaker 1: looking to some other places that were trying to system
Speaker 1: with information the data we have Botswana and so we're
Speaker 1: trying to you know, reach out that way. So we
Speaker 1: not only try to work with government agencies and just
Speaker 1: Reese well, we sent out letters to every state fishing
Speaker 1: Game department telling them what we're doing with Texas Parks
Speaker 1: and Wildlife and seeing if we can assist they mean,
Speaker 1: we've had replies back from I don't know what two
Speaker 1: or three or four. You know, there's just not a
Speaker 1: lot of people that have information for those guys that
Speaker 1: want to go out and educate people and so when
Speaker 1: we've been able to supply that information for them, they've
Speaker 1: been starving for it. Almost seems like a lot of
Speaker 1: the guys and just they're looking for ways to better
Speaker 1: educate their students when they're going through this the house
Speaker 1: and wives of what's going on site them. Thanks Doc, appreciated, welcome,
Speaker 1: asked bow Hunt and Foundation. Check them out, donate, senate donation,
Speaker 1: everybody