1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:07,320 Speaker 1: Body doubts, but Joseph's gotten more. You know, the term 2 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: serial killer, it's not something that's been around for a 3 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: long long time. As a matter of fact, there's kind 4 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 1: of a famous television show that's based on an equally 5 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 1: famous book written by John Douglas, mind Hunter, and that 6 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:32,479 Speaker 1: book and the television show kind of explore the idea 7 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: of the origins of that terminology. And it's kind of interesting. 8 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: In one of the episodes, I kind of, you know, 9 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: bat this back and forth. You know, what do you 10 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:47,559 Speaker 1: call somebody that commits I don't know, sequential killing. They 11 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:52,280 Speaker 1: landed though, back then in the seventies on this term 12 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 1: serial killer, and many people have tried to define it. 13 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 1: And there's a variety of different types of killers that 14 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 1: are out there. You have mass killers, you have spree killers. 15 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: And look, if we sat here long enough, we could 16 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 1: probably make up a few of our own. I'm certainly 17 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:16,119 Speaker 1: positive that some academic somewhere is trying to construct some 18 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:21,559 Speaker 1: new narrative that will place their name in the pantheon 19 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 1: of quote unquote researchers into this type of behavior. But never, 20 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:34,039 Speaker 1: at any point in time in my career or in 21 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:39,120 Speaker 1: my time covering cases Have I ever heard of a 22 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: serial killer that was responsible for just one death? Coin 23 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: of an oddity, isn't it. Today on Body Bags, we're 24 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 1: going to talk about a case from over thirty five 25 00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: years ago, a case that involves a beautiful mama who 26 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 1: died left behind a two year old daughter, and a 27 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: guy that turns out to be the perpetrator that says 28 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 1: he was in fact a serial killer but only killed once. 29 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 1: Coming to you from the beautiful campus of Jacksonville State University, 30 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks. I love 31 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:38,360 Speaker 1: the word confounding, Dave. I don't have an opportunity to 32 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: use it a lot, but I got to tell you 33 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 1: when I began to kind of read the story of 34 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:49,640 Speaker 1: Robin Lawrence and this journey that her case because she 35 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 1: can no longer take a journey. She's been dead now 36 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: since nineteen ninety four, but this journey of her case 37 00:02:56,520 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 1: kind of taken place. Of the things that was rather 38 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:05,080 Speaker 1: confounding is that a person that is now associated with 39 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:10,799 Speaker 1: her death claims that they are were a serial killer, 40 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: but they've only killed one person. A bit of a 41 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:17,679 Speaker 1: head scratcher, right, I mean, that's where you know it 42 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 1: really trum confounding comes in here. 43 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 2: I started looking at it when you send it to 44 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 2: me because I thought this is remarkable. I mean another story, 45 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 2: another case, and I mean this in the nicest way. 46 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:33,920 Speaker 2: And we apologize a lot for being flippant about some 47 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 2: of the ways we sometimes refer to cases being fascinating 48 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 2: or incredible or whatever. In this particular case, I think 49 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 2: about a two year old girl who grew up without 50 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 2: her mother. On November eighteenth, nineteen ninety four, a thirty 51 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 2: seven year old mother married was murdered in her home. 52 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 2: She was murdered rob and Lawrence was in a violent 53 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 2: and vicious way that she was stabbed forty nine times 54 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 2: and was not discovered for two days. Her husband was 55 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 2: overseas at the time, and he was trying to get 56 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 2: her on the phone, and he couldn't reach her, and 57 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:23,920 Speaker 2: so he finally calls the next door neighbor and says, hey, 58 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 2: would you go check on Robin. I can't get her 59 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 2: on the phone, And so the neighbor goes over there 60 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 2: on November twentieth, nineteen ninety four, at noon twelve thirty, 61 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 2: and she gets to the back door and sees that 62 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 2: the screen has been ripped out and she opens it. 63 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 2: I can picture her calling out Robin, and little two 64 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 2: year old girl with a way loaded down diaper comes 65 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:55,599 Speaker 2: to the door and greets her, and she says, well, 66 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:59,279 Speaker 2: where's your mommy, where's your mommy? And she sees the 67 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 2: blood and she starts going through the house and finds 68 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 2: thirty seven year old Robin Lawrence dad. She immediately backs 69 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 2: out of the house, grabs the child, and goes to 70 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 2: a neighbor's and calls. Because she doesn't know how long 71 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:16,359 Speaker 2: she doesn't know is the killer still in the house. 72 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 2: I mean, you wouldn't know. I mean, if you see 73 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 2: something like that for the first time, you don't know. 74 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 2: But that's what we're talking about today because that case, 75 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:29,280 Speaker 2: from that moment on November twentieth, nineteen ninety four, until 76 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:35,279 Speaker 2: recently was an unsolved murder. Nobody knew. And I think 77 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 2: about that two year old girl, yep, not knowing her 78 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 2: mother really other than what her friends and family told 79 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:46,039 Speaker 2: her about her mom. Yeah, I've got children in that 80 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 2: age group. You have a son in that age group. 81 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 2: I mean, we've got kids in this that we can 82 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 2: identify with. And there were no answers for that. 83 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 1: Daughter, none whatsoever can you imagine and you know, I 84 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:03,159 Speaker 1: think probably this is kind of embroidered with another level 85 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 1: of fear. Can you imagine going through life and you 86 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 1: know that your mama has been subjected to this level 87 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:16,040 Speaker 1: of brutality and violence and maybe just maybe every night 88 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:19,159 Speaker 1: when you close your eyes because you were actually there 89 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:21,280 Speaker 1: when it happened. You don't have a memory of it, 90 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 1: but you were actually there when it happened. And I'm wondering, 91 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 1: you know, are you thinking that some horror awaits you 92 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 1: just around the corner, because that person could pop back 93 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:38,920 Speaker 1: into your life at any moment time because they're never caught. 94 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 1: You know, this case actually reminds me, and you're going 95 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 1: to know exactly what I'm talking about here that you 96 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 1: think about this particular case. I'm going to mention going 97 00:06:55,279 --> 00:07:00,920 Speaker 1: back to twenty eighteen. I'm sorry, sixteen. I'm thinking about 98 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 1: the Pokedon Masker, you know, which you and I covered extensively, 99 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 1: and I've been on well a couple of things. I've 100 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 1: been on KT Studios. Big shout out to our friends 101 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: at KAT on their podcast The Piketon Masker. I think 102 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: we did three seasons of it, and you know, I 103 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 1: was also on the documentary on Oxygen that involved a 104 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 1: small child. I don't know if you remember this, when 105 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 1: the the ant came to the door at the home 106 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 1: of one of the victims and knocked on the door, 107 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 1: and a small child answered the door. And the child 108 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 1: looked at the grown woman standing at the door, and 109 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 1: the grown woman said, where's where's mommy and daddy because 110 00:07:56,720 --> 00:08:00,559 Speaker 1: she had gone to a previous house and they didn't 111 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 1: get an answer at the door. And the child looked 112 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 1: into the eyes of this adult and said, mommy and 113 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 1: daddy are playing zombie. And you know they there was 114 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 1: also a baby in the house there too, that had 115 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 1: been you know, lying in the blood, you know, in 116 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: between the two parents in the bed that had been executed, 117 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 1: shot multiple times, and both that child that was to 118 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 1: a certain degree was able to communicate as best they could. 119 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 1: I escapes me right now precisely the age of that baby, 120 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 1: but you know in their sibling who was you know, 121 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 1: a baby baby was removed from the home, and you know, 122 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 1: you think back to it, I don't. I don't remember 123 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 1: things from when I was two or three years old. 124 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: I think the earliest remembrance is I might have might 125 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:05,680 Speaker 1: be when I'm four maybe, but this is something that's 126 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 1: going to hang on you for the rest of your life, Dave, 127 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 1: I mean forever and ever. This is going to be 128 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 1: with you because you're going to be associated with that. 129 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 1: You're going to be identified with that any kind of 130 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 1: Just imagine if there's any family members that are around, 131 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 1: every time they see you. They might not say it 132 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:27,839 Speaker 1: to your face, but every time they see you, you're 133 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 1: going to be associated with that event. They might look 134 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 1: on you with pity. They might say, Wow, they were 135 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 1: very blessed or lucky, or how you want to frame it, 136 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 1: that they weren't you know that this child wasn't killed 137 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:42,319 Speaker 1: as well, he or she is surviving all this time, 138 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:44,720 Speaker 1: and what a legacy, man. 139 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 2: Joan, there's even more. Nicole the little two year old 140 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:53,680 Speaker 2: when the neighbor, her name is Lori Lindbergh, Lori Lindbergh, 141 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 2: came and found Nicole the baby and she calls nine 142 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 2: one one, but she russia is Nicole to the hospital 143 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 2: because she didn't know. She knew she had been there 144 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 2: and had experienced something, but didn't know exactly what. She 145 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 2: knows that she's wearing a diaper that hasn't been changed. 146 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 2: In a long time. The child hasn't eaten or drank. 147 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:16,080 Speaker 2: She was dehydrated, and they did take care of that. 148 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:20,200 Speaker 2: But you know, the thing about Nicole is her Nicole 149 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 2: was very fragile. She had had a liver transplant right 150 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 2: after she was born, so she didn't have was not 151 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 2: in the best of health on a daily basis. And 152 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 2: this two year old went without any kind of help 153 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 2: for two days and so there was some serious concern there. 154 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 2: And thankfully the neighbor knew that and got her that, 155 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:42,680 Speaker 2: you know, she got her to help right away. Or 156 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 2: we could be looking at multiple deaths here. 157 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 1: Well not only multiple deaths. But mind you, Dave, this 158 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 1: goes back to my old assertation about I always say 159 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 1: the poem. I'm not going to do the same thing here, 160 00:10:56,880 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 1: but the old poem about you know, for the want 161 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 1: of a name, she was lost and one of shoe 162 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:04,080 Speaker 1: a horse was lost, message and so forth, so on. 163 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 1: If that child, just folks listening to me, if that 164 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:14,559 Speaker 1: child had died as a result of this brother, that's 165 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:19,079 Speaker 1: that's a double homicide there, you know, because that child's 166 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 1: death or that child's life, let's put it this way, 167 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 1: is directly dependent their life. Their existence is directly dependent 168 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:32,599 Speaker 1: upon survival of the parent. The fact that that child survived, 169 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 1: particularly being in such fragile health. My lord, a liver 170 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 1: transplant in and of itself. And look, child's two years old, Dave, 171 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 1: you're not that far down range from this event that 172 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 1: has taken place. The child is still fragile, all right, 173 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 1: and probably was fragile, and just from a physical standpoint, 174 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:56,440 Speaker 1: not to mention what has occurred in the wake, you know, 175 00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:58,439 Speaker 1: the absence of this loving mother, you know that. 176 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 2: Took care for Medicaid. When you get a transplant, you 177 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 2: have to take immuno suppressors. Is that what they're called. 178 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, there's a whole battery of things that you 179 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:10,839 Speaker 1: have to take just to make sure first off that 180 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 1: the transplant is going to be viable and then to 181 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 1: get your system back on the line. This is a 182 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 1: very It's the the event itself is so invasive, and 183 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 1: we are, you know, in a position. Uh. You know, 184 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 1: our liver literally, you know, it controls so many aspects 185 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:36,440 Speaker 1: to our survivability. Uh, it's a rather resilient organ. But 186 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:41,200 Speaker 1: the fact that you know, this liver was compromised, uh, 187 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 1: to the point where they felt the need that she 188 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 1: would you know, she required a transplant, such fragile health. 189 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:51,960 Speaker 1: And also there there are circumstances down the road, you know, 190 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 1: throughout life. These children, anybody that has gone through a 191 00:12:56,800 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 1: liver or any kind of organ transplant, they have to 192 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 1: be monitor very, very carefully. This is not something like 193 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 1: you're going to run down to the dock in the box, 194 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 1: you know, the GP, you know where they're going to say, hey, 195 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:10,240 Speaker 1: how are you doing, you know that sort of thing. No, 196 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: you're going to have to go to a clinic. You're 197 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 1: gonna have to go to a hepatic specialist that can 198 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 1: follow you and continue to pull labs and do all 199 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 1: this stuff and just kind of, you know, watch you 200 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 1: as you develop. And who does that? Who does that? Well, 201 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:29,560 Speaker 1: it's Mama, always Mama, It always is. You know, dad's 202 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:35,440 Speaker 1: dad is there. Dad provides, but Mama's caretaker. Mama's a lover, 203 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 1: you know, in the family. She's the one that makes 204 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 1: everybody feel secure, wraps your arms around. She's once you 205 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 1: go to you know, when you cry and you need 206 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 1: you need care and compassion and all those sorts of things. 207 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:47,680 Speaker 1: She's also the one to make sure you make it 208 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:50,560 Speaker 1: the doctor's point of right, because I can tell you, 209 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 1: as an old hand at being a daddy, I can't 210 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 1: remember that stuff. It's something that I was always working. 211 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 1: It's not something. Don't ask me to remember an appointment 212 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 1: I can't remember. I can't remember. You know, I've got 213 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 1: a graduate assistance, like I have to ask her all 214 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:07,200 Speaker 1: the time. I was like, what am I teaching on today? 215 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 1: You know? So don't ask a dad to do it. 216 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 1: It's a mom that does it. And the fact that 217 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 1: this precious little angel was robbed bye, and I'll go 218 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 1: ahead and say it by an agent of Satan himself 219 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 1: that showed up in that house that night and drove 220 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 1: that knife into this mother's body over and over and 221 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 1: over again, and allowed that two year old to remain 222 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 1: in that house, not knowing what would become of her. 223 00:14:44,880 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: This is the definition of pure evil. Forty nine times day. 224 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 1: Forty nine times. You know, there's there's overkill, then there's overkill. 225 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 1: You know, you start to get you start to get above. 226 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: I think personally, you start to get above, you start 227 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 1: to get into double digit numbers, you're overkill at that 228 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 1: point in time. But forty nine times that this blade 229 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 1: was driven into this mother's body and then there are 230 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 1: no answers, and I can tell you the scene you know, 231 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 1: you mentioned, and we've talked about on bodybacks. We you know, 232 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 1: use the term finder, and they're an interesting group of people. 233 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 1: They really are. You know, when it comes down to 234 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 1: those those individuals, it's not cops. It's not cops. It's 235 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 1: certainly not me. It's civilians that are just minding their 236 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 1: own business, going through life, doing their thing. The population 237 00:15:57,280 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 1: of people. If there could be a study, and I 238 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 1: maybe there is a study out there, and any of 239 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 1: my academic friends that are listening, I urge, I urge 240 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 1: you to explore the segment of the population those individuals 241 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 1: that are the finders of dead bodies. Can you imagine 242 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 1: going into that house and you know, observing that horror? 243 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 1: You know, because I was just lecturing yesterday to my 244 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 1: intro forensics class and we're doing a roology DNA section 245 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 1: right now here in fall semester at jack State, and 246 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 1: I'm into the DNA, you know, kind of introducing the 247 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 1: students to this, but I start off with soerroology, which 248 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 1: is the study of blood, and that's where most DNA scientists, 249 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 1: you know, they come from a background of zerology, and 250 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 1: I was talking about you know, generally blood is considered 251 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 1: to be the most recognizable, I think, to the general public, 252 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 1: the most recognizable type of evidence that we think about 253 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:04,880 Speaker 1: death investigation. And to be there in that environment, looking 254 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:09,719 Speaker 1: at this trail of blood that winds up leading back, 255 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 1: leading back to this mother's remains, I think one of 256 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:16,679 Speaker 1: the things. And this is rather gruesome, but I'm going 257 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:18,879 Speaker 1: to go ahead and say it, because you know, we 258 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 1: have to talk about these things. I'm wondering if this 259 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,480 Speaker 1: how many times this child went back and forth to 260 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:33,120 Speaker 1: mama's remains, because the child knows where mama, Mama sleeps, 261 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 1: the child is And there's nothing more precious in the world, 262 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 1: is there that when you have a baby. And I 263 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:44,639 Speaker 1: miss those days, I really do. I'm not saying I 264 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 1: miss the tears, but I miss I miss those little 265 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 1: arms reaching up to me, wanting me to comfort them. Okay, 266 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 1: and how much more so would a mother. But that 267 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 1: child wandering through that house with that dirty diaper, going 268 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 1: back to her remains every single time, the body getting 269 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:10,720 Speaker 1: colder and colder, that blood getting tackier and tackier. To 270 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: really kind of lace this up, I'm wondering where their 271 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:20,160 Speaker 1: bloody little footprints on the surface of that floor where 272 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 1: their contact, Traces of blood on the wall where the 273 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:28,520 Speaker 1: child had touched mom smears, you know, down at child 274 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:32,399 Speaker 1: level on the wall, the child crying, aimlessly, wanting to 275 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 1: be comfort, dirty diaper, nothing to drink, you know, there's 276 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 1: no bottle for the child, there's no water in a 277 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 1: sippy cup, there's no animal crackers, there's nothing. There's just silence, 278 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:50,920 Speaker 1: silence in this house. It's you begin and many times 279 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 1: for us that go out on scenes like this, you 280 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 1: start to think about the only thing you can think about, 281 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:02,880 Speaker 1: really become obsessed with it, is I want to hold 282 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:06,359 Speaker 1: somebody responsible. I want to do everything that I can. 283 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:10,439 Speaker 1: And you try not to treat cases differently day, but 284 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 1: when you walk into a horror show like this and 285 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 1: you see these things, it all of a sudden really 286 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:21,439 Speaker 1: intensifies your ability to focus. I think there are cases, 287 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:23,879 Speaker 1: and I'll admit to it, there are cases out there 288 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 1: that as a practitioner I was more focused on because 289 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:30,479 Speaker 1: I don't know if it's that little flame of anger 290 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:33,399 Speaker 1: that stirs up in your soul or whatever it is, 291 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:36,160 Speaker 1: It's like I want to make sure somebody's hell responsible 292 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:41,119 Speaker 1: for this so evidence in this case. I think, and 293 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:43,680 Speaker 1: I'm sure that many of the investigators back then during 294 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:46,479 Speaker 1: this period of time, back in ninety four, they wanted 295 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 1: to put somebody's feet to the fire in this but 296 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:54,159 Speaker 1: the fact that this thing was cold for so long, 297 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 1: everything that they did back in ninety four turns on 298 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 1: what happened eventually in the future with this case. 299 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:09,160 Speaker 2: You know, Joe, you mentioned foot prints from two year old. 300 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:12,879 Speaker 2: You know what they did find. The detective on the 301 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:15,359 Speaker 2: scene that day that took all the photos and you know, 302 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 2: went into us again, not it was an active scene, 303 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 2: but there was an activity going on. You know, you 304 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:27,160 Speaker 2: had the body of the deceased, and what they did 305 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:31,919 Speaker 2: find they found tissues. They found little tissues around the 306 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:36,120 Speaker 2: body that had blood on them. And the detective believes 307 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 2: that little Nicole, at two years old, she knew what 308 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:43,680 Speaker 2: blood was because you know, moms used tissues and band 309 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 2: aids to clean up blood. And the detective things based 310 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:49,439 Speaker 2: on where they found these tissues and how many they 311 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:53,640 Speaker 2: saw that that little baby was trying to stop the blood. 312 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 2: But even more than that, you know, we mentioned that 313 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:00,399 Speaker 2: you know, she was dehydrated, you know, she had no food, 314 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 2: no nothing, okay, But one thing they did find all 315 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:11,119 Speaker 2: around Robin's body by empty baby bottles, and because of 316 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 2: where they were placed, the detective thinks that two year 317 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:19,640 Speaker 2: old Nicole was trying to get food for her mother, 318 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:22,119 Speaker 2: you know, trying to wake her up. That she was 319 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 2: trying to tend to the injuries and trying to get 320 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:26,360 Speaker 2: her to that was all she could think to do, 321 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 2: you know. And I'm thinking, that's a two year old 322 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 2: that is just a superhero to do that. And that's what, 323 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:36,399 Speaker 2: you know, was amazing about this incredible scene here. But 324 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:43,440 Speaker 2: look the injuries. The detective says that he believes that 325 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 2: Robin was attacked in her bed and that she fought 326 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 2: her way out of that bed, that she fought hard. 327 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:56,920 Speaker 2: He went on and said that there were a number 328 00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 2: of things that stood out. The phone court had been cut, 329 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:05,919 Speaker 2: and this is somebody who came in to do the 330 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:08,639 Speaker 2: devil's work. You mentioned that at the very beginning, and 331 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 2: so cut the phone cord and then let the killing begin. 332 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:22,240 Speaker 2: Apparently because forty nine wounds from a knife, Joe, that's 333 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 2: going to be I know that they mentioned one of 334 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:30,360 Speaker 2: the cuts on the neck was a gaping wound. If 335 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:33,160 Speaker 2: you're in a frenzied type of attack, and I'm sure 336 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:37,399 Speaker 2: you've seen these. What does somebody look like when they've 337 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:39,720 Speaker 2: gone through a fight. You know how exhausting it is 338 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,120 Speaker 2: just to throw punches in a fight. If you've ever 339 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 2: been in a real fight that was emotional, and I 340 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:48,879 Speaker 2: mean you're worn out after two minutes. For somebody to 341 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 2: be stabbed that many times, to put up that kind 342 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:57,639 Speaker 2: of fight, I just cannot imagine what the detectives walked 343 00:22:57,680 --> 00:22:59,720 Speaker 2: into and what that two year old wanted to be. 344 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 1: It would have been on the part of the perpetrator. 345 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,159 Speaker 1: It would have been incredibly exhausting. The only thing I 346 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 1: could really think about. You know, when anytime I think 347 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: about a frenzied killing like this, I don't think about 348 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:19,879 Speaker 1: somebody that is necessarily out of their mind in the 349 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: sense that they're having a psychotic break. I'm thinking about 350 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,919 Speaker 1: somebody that is stimulated by something. Now, you can be 351 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:31,520 Speaker 1: stimulated by multiple things, Okay, obviously, you know you can 352 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:35,680 Speaker 1: take on some kind of substance, perhaps a mind altering substance. 353 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 1: But I think something that hardens you to the point 354 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 1: where you're pushed beyond your limits. I'm thinking coke meth 355 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 1: Those sorts of things. I'm not looking at this and 356 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 1: thinking heroin addict, all right, something that's going to kind 357 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 1: of drive you down. I'm thinking about somebody. And there's 358 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 1: also another way that you can be stimulated, and that's 359 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:02,879 Speaker 1: a frenzied sex attack, and that's you know, it's you know, 360 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:06,359 Speaker 1: it's the ultimate stimulant to a certain degree, particularly if 361 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:10,679 Speaker 1: somebody is fixated on a victim. And I find it 362 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:15,159 Speaker 1: interesting the fact that the trouble that would have that 363 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 1: an individual would have had to have gone to in 364 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:22,359 Speaker 1: order to do something like cutting a phone line, that 365 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 1: goes to something you and I talk about, right, we 366 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 1: talk about premeditation and planning, I think, and again, knowing 367 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:35,399 Speaker 1: that you know that you're not dealing with somebody that 368 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 1: is in a classic sense that are you know, has 369 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:44,160 Speaker 1: lost their marbles, if you will, that are completely disoriented 370 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 1: to time and space and all those sorts of things. 371 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 1: You're thinking about somebody that's being I hate to use 372 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 1: this term, but they're thoughtful about it, but not thoughtful 373 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 1: in a compassionate way. They're thinking about it. They've worked 374 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:56,879 Speaker 1: this out in their brain. You know, how can I 375 00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 1: achieve this? And my end game is I'm not just 376 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 1: doing this to take her life. I'm doing this probably 377 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 1: from the perspective that I'm sexually motivated by it. Something 378 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:18,199 Speaker 1: is attractive to this individual about the victim. And you know, 379 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:25,160 Speaker 1: and also here's something else that's real. Key, who would 380 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:30,159 Speaker 1: in fact have knowledge that she's a single mama, that 381 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:36,680 Speaker 1: she's all alone because you had mentioned that this mama 382 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:42,880 Speaker 1: was absent her husband, that daddy's gone, he's deployed, he's 383 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 1: deployed overseas right now. So who's going to have that 384 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 1: inside knowledge? Right who's going to be aware that she's 385 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 1: going to be there all by herself. Here's one other thing. 386 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:59,120 Speaker 1: Sometimes I think that single mothers in particular, I don't 387 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 1: mean I'm not disrespecting their marriage. And when I say single, 388 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:06,719 Speaker 1: I'm just saying a mother alone with a child. Some 389 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 1: people will say, I think that, you know, woe be 390 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 1: into the person that crosses a mother that has a child. 391 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 1: She's trying to defend them. However, I think that women 392 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 1: with children become a more vulnerable target because women with 393 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 1: children might be so inclined to give into the request 394 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 1: of some sadistic animal that shows up on their doorstep. 395 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:34,960 Speaker 1: As long as you don't hurt my baby. And I 396 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 1: think that some of these predators understand that they kind 397 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:41,720 Speaker 1: of plug into that and want to try to utilize 398 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 1: that as leverage to get what they want. But in 399 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 1: this case, you know, you've got a subject that's here 400 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 1: that's going to try to you know, not just fulfill 401 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:53,879 Speaker 1: some kind of sick fantasy, but they're going to be 402 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,360 Speaker 1: there to try to rip her to threads. What does 403 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,600 Speaker 1: that say about the subject? You know this is doing 404 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 1: this because you know, yeah, one of the things that 405 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 1: we look for in a case like this from a 406 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,879 Speaker 1: forensic standpoint is, first off, we want to understand the 407 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 1: weapon that is used. We want to understand is this 408 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,960 Speaker 1: a weapon that is foreign to this domicile. It's not 409 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:18,119 Speaker 1: part of the kitchen, like the kitchen array like with 410 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,399 Speaker 1: the knife, Yeah, and we want to know that, and 411 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,199 Speaker 1: does it marry up with anything else that might be 412 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 1: in the household. Well, if they show up with a 413 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: knife again, Dave preparation right, and then what areas of 414 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 1: the body are are insulted at this point? Is this 415 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 1: somebody that is doing disfigurement? You know, because that shows 416 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 1: for many they'll say that that shows some kind of 417 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 1: personal issue with a person. I've had folks that have 418 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 1: had knives inserted into eyes. I've had people that have 419 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:55,639 Speaker 1: had you know, much like if you've ever you know, 420 00:27:55,680 --> 00:28:00,880 Speaker 1: you remember the Heath Ledger Heath Ledger Batman movie where 421 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 1: his cheeks, you know, the actor's cheeks have been cut 422 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 1: on both sides. I've had that happen. I've had lips 423 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:14,360 Speaker 1: that have been removed, foreheads cut. I've had ears part 424 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:16,919 Speaker 1: I've never had ears totally removed, but I've had ears 425 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 1: sliced off or partially sliced off. And then you got 426 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 1: these other other things that occur to where they're actually 427 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 1: attacking the sexual Uh, those those areas of the body 428 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 1: that are identified with sexuality, like with women, the breast, 429 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 1: I've had partial, partial, I don't know how to say it, 430 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,960 Speaker 1: a visceration, if you will, of the female sexual organs 431 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 1: where the uterus is positive partially removed. I've had things 432 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 1: inserted into into victims, the buttocks attacked. There was one 433 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:52,480 Speaker 1: case I was just talking about the other day where 434 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 1: a guy tortured a lady in a bathtub, and I 435 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 1: was showing these Crimescene images to my class where the 436 00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 1: buttocks was attacked and she had been drowned homicide, drowned 437 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 1: in a bathtub. And the interesting thing about it, Dave, 438 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:08,400 Speaker 1: is that she was her buttocks was stabbed multiple times. 439 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:12,760 Speaker 1: And guess what those injuries on the buttocks were apps 440 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 1: in any kind of hemorrhage. That was all done postmortem. 441 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:20,960 Speaker 1: And so yeah, you look at this, and the people 442 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 1: that do profiling and everything when we, you know, assess 443 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 1: these injuries, we you know, they'll take that data from 444 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 1: these assessments and they'll say, oh, okay, well this begins 445 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,120 Speaker 1: to fit some kind of pattern, you know, some kind 446 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 1: of template that they have set out, you know when 447 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 1: we talk about serial perpetrators and sexually motivated things like that, 448 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: and they'll look for these little points of identification along 449 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 1: along the way. In Robin Lawrence's case, I'm fascinated by 450 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 1: the specific area of the injuries. You know, we're talking 451 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:58,480 Speaker 1: about a gaping neck wound that we know of where 452 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,960 Speaker 1: and generally when you gaping neck wound, yes, that can 453 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 1: be facilitated with a stab wound, but most of the 454 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:09,720 Speaker 1: time gaping. Anytime you hear gaping associated with sharp force injury, 455 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 1: those are most often associated with incized wounds like slices 456 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 1: as opposed to stabs. Now, you can have stabs, and 457 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 1: this is really horrific, but you can have stabs where 458 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:24,400 Speaker 1: they keep the knife in place and they will work 459 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 1: the knife back and forth in the wound. Okay, and 460 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,880 Speaker 1: that does happen. But when you get a gaping event 461 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 1: and you have a slice, I don't, And forgive me, 462 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 1: I don't know if I've talked about this before. I 463 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,160 Speaker 1: think I probably have, but it bears mentioning again. You'll 464 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 1: get these really irregular, nasty wounds when surgeons, for instance, 465 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 1: are doing surgery. Okay, did you know that our bodies 466 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 1: have contour lines? Our bodies do? They have contour lines? 467 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 1: And these are called lines of Langer. And so if anyone, 468 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 1: particularly old school people that have ever had have ever 469 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 1: had an appendix removed, there's the incision they do with laparoscopically. Now. 470 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:12,040 Speaker 1: But the incision is called a McBurnie incision. If you 471 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 1: look at it, it runs, it kind of runs contrary 472 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 1: to where the appendix is positioned. You think, well, that's 473 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 1: kind of an odd scar house position because I know 474 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 1: anatomically where the appendix is the reason they make the 475 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 1: incision that way is that they're actually following the lines 476 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,000 Speaker 1: of Langer. Look, don't believe me, Go and look this up. 477 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:35,480 Speaker 1: You can do Google search. You'll see exactly what I'm 478 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 1: talking about. Just put in lines of Langer human body 479 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 1: and you'll see these contour lines. So most surgeries that 480 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 1: physicians do, you know, with surgical tools, you know, scalpels 481 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:49,640 Speaker 1: and those sorts of things, they will follow the lines 482 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 1: of Langer. If they don't follow the lines of Langer, 483 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 1: you get these real grotesque injuries because you're literally going 484 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:58,240 Speaker 1: against the grain of the body, so it pulls apart. 485 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,920 Speaker 1: That's why when people have these disfiguring injuries and they 486 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 1: survived them. You know, if you're blunt force impact where 487 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 1: you get these nasty lacerations, the skin separates in an 488 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:13,560 Speaker 1: odd way, it doesn't follow the contour line, or somebody 489 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 1: has been sliced against the lines of Langer. Again, these 490 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 1: these injuries are wide and gaping and really nasty looking. 491 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,920 Speaker 1: They're very hard to close for emergency room positions, by 492 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 1: the way, or surgeons that have to attend to them. 493 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:31,960 Speaker 1: So people don't think about that, you know, they don't. 494 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:34,040 Speaker 1: A lot of people will say, well, they were just 495 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 1: cut to pieces, and you can go out and you 496 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 1: can see injuries on individuals that are sliced up at 497 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:46,080 Speaker 1: a scene, and it just so happens that the perpetrator 498 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 1: kind of fell within the parameters of the lines of 499 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 1: Langer and the injuries will not look as grotesque. But 500 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:53,840 Speaker 1: you can have somebody that is stabbed or cut maybe 501 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 1: one or two times, and it will be one of 502 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 1: the nastiest injuries you've ever seen because it goes completely 503 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:02,440 Speaker 1: against the grain of the body. So you think about 504 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 1: this and with forty nine, trust me, you're not going 505 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 1: to be following the contours of the body. These things 506 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 1: are going to be grotesque. They're talking about this gaping 507 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 1: injury on the neck. It would not surprise me. But 508 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 1: here's the thing. Here's the thing. When you're involved in 509 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:25,239 Speaker 1: this type of violence, I can almost guarantee, just like 510 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 1: old le Cart said many years ago, you are going 511 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 1: to leave a trace behind. My contention is is, if 512 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 1: you're going to perpetrate this kind of homicide that was 513 00:33:55,560 --> 00:34:00,959 Speaker 1: perpetrated on Robin, you got to know something about her. 514 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:04,800 Speaker 1: I've gotten to a point in my life now where 515 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:09,360 Speaker 1: I do not believe in coincidences. I no longer believe 516 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 1: that you know most of the time. I do not 517 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:14,960 Speaker 1: believe that there are going to be some dark, unseen 518 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,400 Speaker 1: forces that are going to appear out of nothing on 519 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:21,800 Speaker 1: your doorstep. Most of the time, in most of these cases, 520 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:24,759 Speaker 1: there's going to be some I don't know, for lack 521 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,120 Speaker 1: of a better term, some knowing going on, if you 522 00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:29,200 Speaker 1: know what I mean, Dave. 523 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:35,000 Speaker 2: I thought it was fascinating this crime taking place in 524 00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:40,000 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety four. And if you remember back to that year, 525 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:46,000 Speaker 2: that's the year of the Nicole Simpson Ron Goldman murders. 526 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:50,160 Speaker 1: Yes, it was always you know what, I always get 527 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:53,080 Speaker 1: confused about that. I get confused for some reason because 528 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 1: it seems like so many stuff happened back then. Always 529 00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:00,920 Speaker 1: get confused about the date of that double homicide, in 530 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:03,239 Speaker 1: the date of the trial, right, because both of them 531 00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:06,000 Speaker 1: were like a big deal, you know, so I get 532 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,919 Speaker 1: the two things conflated, I think. So anyway, I'm sorry, 533 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:10,640 Speaker 1: I didn't even interrupt you. No, No, it was. 534 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:13,000 Speaker 2: June ninety four, and you know, there was a lot 535 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 2: of blood unseen. And as the year went on and 536 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:19,880 Speaker 2: they talked about evidence and things like that, it became 537 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:23,040 Speaker 2: something you know, that was talked about. And as they 538 00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:26,400 Speaker 2: were talking about the trial, the upcoming trial of the century. 539 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:29,439 Speaker 2: You know that blood evidence would play a big part, 540 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:33,080 Speaker 2: and they've brought in I remember them bringing in these 541 00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:36,160 Speaker 2: DNA experts early on, and it was in the news. 542 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 2: And so as this crime takes place and they've got 543 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:46,720 Speaker 2: forty nine wounds, knife wounds, and they're looking for evidence 544 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:50,279 Speaker 2: they can use, I have to imagine that the detectives 545 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:53,200 Speaker 2: on the scene had to be thinking along those lines 546 00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:56,520 Speaker 2: that we've got this. It was still very early on, 547 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:00,160 Speaker 2: very early on in what we now learn of DNA, 548 00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:02,880 Speaker 2: but they did have it. It was in the news. 549 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,399 Speaker 2: People did know about it, and I think they were 550 00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:09,080 Speaker 2: probably I'm hoping, schooling themselves as they were going and 551 00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:11,880 Speaker 2: looking for any piece of evidence. And in this case, 552 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:19,760 Speaker 2: a detective is looking in the bathroom and something catches 553 00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 2: his attention. A towel, O bath towel, and it's on 554 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,600 Speaker 2: the rod that goes to the shower, you know. And 555 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:33,279 Speaker 2: this is the difference between the detective and everybody else. 556 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 2: And I think of you as a detective, Joe, because 557 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:40,400 Speaker 2: of how you have to work scenes as well. You 558 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:44,839 Speaker 2: guys don't take anything for granted. It's like everything there 559 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:49,160 Speaker 2: could lead to solving this case. And this detective saw 560 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,680 Speaker 2: it appeared to be a washcloth with a little stain 561 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:59,080 Speaker 2: on it, a small brownish stain that if you're looking 562 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:01,040 Speaker 2: for a big red block of blood, that's not what 563 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:04,439 Speaker 2: it looks like. It does tend to look different than 564 00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:11,600 Speaker 2: what one would expect. And that small brownish stain on 565 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:13,440 Speaker 2: that washcloth was not discarded. 566 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,040 Speaker 1: No, hang on, let me tell you one more thing, 567 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:19,520 Speaker 1: because we're doing with time here right, Think about if 568 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:23,560 Speaker 1: you've ever seen okay, just imagine this, have you ever 569 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:27,560 Speaker 1: seen like just in your own household? I certainly have 570 00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:31,960 Speaker 1: where I don't know for dudes, I guess it's one 571 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:37,680 Speaker 1: you cut yourself shaving right, and when you cut yourself shaving, 572 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:41,799 Speaker 1: you focus on the cut right, and maybe you get 573 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:43,640 Speaker 1: a piece of tissue paper you put on your face 574 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:47,239 Speaker 1: which you don't follow up on or remember is that 575 00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:50,839 Speaker 1: now blood has fallen away from your body and it's 576 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:54,319 Speaker 1: landed on some kind of surface or perhaps just like 577 00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:56,239 Speaker 1: in this case, you've grabbed a cloth or you've grabbed 578 00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:59,640 Speaker 1: a tissue and you've placed it there and you pull 579 00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:03,080 Speaker 1: it away and you drop it into trash. Can dave 580 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:06,640 Speaker 1: that blood is not going to appear two days later 581 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:09,239 Speaker 1: like it did when it initially happened, and you're right, 582 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:13,319 Speaker 1: it is brown. I've talked. That's why I always tell 583 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:15,719 Speaker 1: my kids, the students. I was like, you never call 584 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:20,480 Speaker 1: something blood. You can say, maybe it appears like it 585 00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 1: might be blood, but I don't know, because Dave, I've 586 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,319 Speaker 1: been fooled. I've actually seen melted chocolate, it seems, and 587 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:27,040 Speaker 1: I thought that it was blood and it wasn't blood. 588 00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:30,320 Speaker 1: It was melted chocolate. And that does, in fact happen. 589 00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:36,000 Speaker 1: I've actually had. The worst are rust stains rust. If 590 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:40,800 Speaker 1: you pay attention, there's certain shades of rust. There's certain 591 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:43,719 Speaker 1: shades of rust out there. When you see it, you 592 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:46,160 Speaker 1: have to do a double take because you're thinking, wait, 593 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:50,520 Speaker 1: is that blood? You know? Now you need to sample it. 594 00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:53,160 Speaker 1: You need to have the technician come and take a 595 00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,120 Speaker 1: sample of it, because again, you don't know. You don't 596 00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:59,600 Speaker 1: know until it passes through the rigor of testing. All right, 597 00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:01,680 Speaker 1: But the fact that and I love the fact that 598 00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:05,359 Speaker 1: you brought it up about this detective again all these 599 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:09,680 Speaker 1: years ago, nineteen ninety four. Brother, he spotted it. 600 00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:14,000 Speaker 2: Didn't he and he grabbed it. And that's why that's 601 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:16,600 Speaker 2: the reason we actually are talking about this case today. 602 00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:19,719 Speaker 2: Is because that detective did his job and then some 603 00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:22,520 Speaker 2: everybody involved in this case. From what I've been ever 604 00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:24,319 Speaker 2: since you gave it to me, it kind of caught 605 00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,160 Speaker 2: me in such a way because it's such a remarkable 606 00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:31,600 Speaker 2: thing to me on multiple levels. But a cold case 607 00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:34,960 Speaker 2: that get solved, and you know, in this particular case, 608 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:39,560 Speaker 2: the victim's mom and dad, you know, you know, she 609 00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:41,879 Speaker 2: was thirty seven when she was killed, when Robin was killed, 610 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:44,680 Speaker 2: she was thirty seven, has a two year old daughter, Nicole, 611 00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:48,000 Speaker 2: it for us, is still alive. But you know her 612 00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:50,480 Speaker 2: dad is still alive. He's one hundred and one years old, 613 00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:57,240 Speaker 2: and he was able to see this get solved after 614 00:39:57,239 --> 00:39:58,000 Speaker 2: thirty seven years. 615 00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:00,080 Speaker 1: He didn't after how many of these cases have you 616 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:03,840 Speaker 1: and I covered that were cold and are now solved, 617 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:07,200 Speaker 1: Where we have people say I just wish her mother 618 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:09,680 Speaker 1: was here to see that this had been solved, or 619 00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:11,600 Speaker 1: I just wish the dad was still here to see 620 00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:13,600 Speaker 1: the solved. My lord, how old is this guy? 621 00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:16,600 Speaker 2: One hundred and one years old and he lived to 622 00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:18,960 Speaker 2: see the day he lived to see the day that 623 00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:21,759 Speaker 2: this case was solved. And it's because the detective did 624 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:23,920 Speaker 2: not take that for granted. But tell me, what happened 625 00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:28,040 Speaker 2: next after this brown stain on a hand towel. At 626 00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:30,239 Speaker 2: the time, you're not going to be able to do 627 00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:32,520 Speaker 2: that much with it. You can get DNA off of 628 00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:34,520 Speaker 2: at which they did. They did pull DNA, they got 629 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:37,480 Speaker 2: a sample, and they ran it through the database. But 630 00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,360 Speaker 2: Joe in nineteen ninety four, what kind of database do 631 00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:41,280 Speaker 2: we have for DNA? 632 00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:46,640 Speaker 1: Shallow at best? Shallow shallow, you know, and back then 633 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:51,279 Speaker 1: it was more of a let's see if you're looking 634 00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:56,520 Speaker 1: at the utility of a DNA back then, you're not 635 00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:59,880 Speaker 1: necessarily going to go to a database because it was 636 00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:05,400 Speaker 1: again shallow. You're doing it more of a true comparison, 637 00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:11,440 Speaker 1: like a comparative analysis, right where you're trying to understand 638 00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:16,440 Speaker 1: who who the person might be if you get a 639 00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:20,920 Speaker 1: suspect that you can compare two as opposed to it 640 00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:22,920 Speaker 1: was almost like that's I think that's one of the 641 00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:26,400 Speaker 1: reasons that for years and years DNA was referred to 642 00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:31,360 Speaker 1: as DNA fingerprinting, because that's the way fingerprinting was used. 643 00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:35,840 Speaker 1: You know, you it's kind of the the science of 644 00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:38,440 Speaker 1: it is much more complex, but when you think about it, 645 00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:41,320 Speaker 1: comparing the two, you know, you think about, well, she is. 646 00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:46,760 Speaker 1: You know, it's it's a we have we have the DNA, 647 00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:49,399 Speaker 1: but where are we going to compare it to? There's 648 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:52,360 Speaker 1: nothing out there. We don't really have an existent database, 649 00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:54,399 Speaker 1: you know, to plug in and you know, you think 650 00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:56,880 Speaker 1: about the code of system and forgive me because off 651 00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:58,440 Speaker 1: the top of my head, I can't remember when it 652 00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:01,120 Speaker 1: was initially established. But it's just because you have a 653 00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:04,640 Speaker 1: swimming pool dug in your backyard, it doesn't mean anything 654 00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:07,120 Speaker 1: if it doesn't have water in it. And so if 655 00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:09,840 Speaker 1: you think about the water with samplings, are the people 656 00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:12,080 Speaker 1: that are out there? The pool is very shallow, right, 657 00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:18,080 Speaker 1: and now not only is it full, but nowadays when 658 00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:21,600 Speaker 1: you think about the utility of IgG with you know, 659 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:27,960 Speaker 1: investigative genetic genealogy, suddenly you know, to continue this metaphor, 660 00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:30,880 Speaker 1: you need to expand the parameters of your pool because 661 00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:33,920 Speaker 1: now it's washing over the side. Goodness, you know, because 662 00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:37,640 Speaker 1: we've now you know, you've unleashed this gulf of data 663 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:40,719 Speaker 1: that's potentially out there that you can kind of you know, 664 00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:43,640 Speaker 1: plug into, which is kind of study. 665 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:46,760 Speaker 2: There was something incredible about this because it doesn't usually 666 00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:50,240 Speaker 2: happen like this, but Parabond Nano Labs is a DNA 667 00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:54,120 Speaker 2: technology company that actually is in that same geographic area 668 00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:58,080 Speaker 2: that this took place. But I actually saw as they 669 00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:02,360 Speaker 2: were breaking down, you know this uh the DNA and 670 00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:05,000 Speaker 2: they were trying to develop a lead, I mean still 671 00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:06,839 Speaker 2: working on it, and they actually were able to put 672 00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:10,719 Speaker 2: together what they believe this person would have looked like. 673 00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:12,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's called phenotyping. 674 00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:15,040 Speaker 2: Yeah all right, they did that, and I've seen the 675 00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:21,280 Speaker 2: pictures and oh my goodness, it looked like a photo. 676 00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:25,680 Speaker 1: No. Phoenotyping is and you know, it gets phoenotyping gets 677 00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:28,520 Speaker 1: lost now, I mean they do it, but it's like 678 00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:34,319 Speaker 1: with I G G. That's the rage. You know, it's 679 00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:37,719 Speaker 1: I don't know what's what's the term, it's it's cachet. 680 00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:42,120 Speaker 1: So you know, with phoenotyping though, if you're if you're 681 00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:44,400 Speaker 1: a real nerd, you know kind of like and I'm 682 00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:47,720 Speaker 1: proudly count myself in that, in that in that host 683 00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:51,120 Speaker 1: of nerds out there, phenotyping is kind of kind of 684 00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:54,360 Speaker 1: cool because, uh, you go in and you begin to 685 00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:59,440 Speaker 1: pick up on you know, uh, predisposition relative to DNA 686 00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:01,920 Speaker 1: traits to pass down and it's not just passed down 687 00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:05,840 Speaker 1: from your family, but you know, they isolate. They isolate 688 00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:10,000 Speaker 1: these markers along strand that can do things like predict 689 00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:16,880 Speaker 1: eye color, skin tone, height, facial structure, you know, hair color, 690 00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:19,359 Speaker 1: you know, all of these sorts of things, and they 691 00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:21,759 Speaker 1: you know, and for years and years, you know, we're 692 00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:25,200 Speaker 1: kind of and listen, all due respect to all of 693 00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:28,840 Speaker 1: my friends out there that are composite composite sketch artists, 694 00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:32,320 Speaker 1: and they do fantastic work based on what they're told, 695 00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:35,400 Speaker 1: based on what they're told. You're right, But when you can, 696 00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:40,840 Speaker 1: when you can have phenotyping, you know, it's essentially God's 697 00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:44,520 Speaker 1: code if you will, all right, you have access to 698 00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:46,760 Speaker 1: this and you can plug this data in and suddenly, 699 00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:48,839 Speaker 1: you know, like you said, you were amazed by this. 700 00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:53,000 Speaker 1: I've seen several of these things and it just kind 701 00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:55,360 Speaker 1: of burst on the scene. Right, It's like, holy smokes. 702 00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:59,759 Speaker 1: And when you see the person that's actually compared to, 703 00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:03,840 Speaker 1: you know, to the template that was created from the 704 00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:06,160 Speaker 1: phenotyping is kind of striking man. 705 00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:09,320 Speaker 2: And they actually the Cold Case detectives that took this over. 706 00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:14,200 Speaker 2: They started doing all the work we have seen happen before, 707 00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:18,440 Speaker 2: and they ended up in twenty nineteen. They began the 708 00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:23,560 Speaker 2: process of trying to find the killer and they were 709 00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:28,319 Speaker 2: able to, as I mentioned, Pairavon Nanilabs working with this 710 00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:30,840 Speaker 2: and building out the background to figure out the family, 711 00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:33,319 Speaker 2: the genetics and everything else that went into it and Joe, 712 00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:37,759 Speaker 2: they were actually able to find. And we're talking a 713 00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:41,799 Speaker 2: needle in a haystack because the one thing that you 714 00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:46,879 Speaker 2: said when you started the show a serial killer with 715 00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:55,400 Speaker 2: one victim. And when you have somebody a criminal, you 716 00:45:55,440 --> 00:46:01,120 Speaker 2: don't expect them to start off with a homicide that 717 00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:06,480 Speaker 2: is this grotesque, this frenzied attack. You would think there 718 00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:10,880 Speaker 2: would be other crimes leading up to it, and you 719 00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:15,239 Speaker 2: would have a pattern before this happened, and then it 720 00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:17,920 Speaker 2: wouldn't stop, it would go on. I don't know how 721 00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:21,120 Speaker 2: you go beyond what happened to Robin here, but you 722 00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:24,000 Speaker 2: know it's not it's but this ended up being a 723 00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:25,960 Speaker 2: needle in a haystack. It was a one off by 724 00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:30,200 Speaker 2: a person with no criminal record at all. 725 00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:35,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you're right, you've you've got this subject and 726 00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:37,480 Speaker 1: I'll go ahead and name him. And he was a 727 00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:44,239 Speaker 1: soldier at the time, just like oli Robin's husband. This 728 00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:47,120 Speaker 1: guy was a soldier. And remember I talked about connectivity, 729 00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:49,200 Speaker 1: and I talked about our awareness and being able to 730 00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:52,760 Speaker 1: target people and all these sorts of things, and when 731 00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:57,359 Speaker 1: you know, when you're and he was posted a place 732 00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:00,239 Speaker 1: called Fort Meyer, which is in the Arlington area, you know, 733 00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:04,160 Speaker 1: around you know, northern Virginia. Uh. Fort Myer is not 734 00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:06,839 Speaker 1: one of these massive bases you know that we have 735 00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:10,040 Speaker 1: if you you know, if you look at, uh, some 736 00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:13,000 Speaker 1: of these places that we have you know, around the 737 00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:19,400 Speaker 1: country where our troopers are a bilted it. He was 738 00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:24,560 Speaker 1: living in the barracks at the time. And I've you know, 739 00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:27,000 Speaker 1: and I've thought about this, at what point in time 740 00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:30,000 Speaker 1: did he cross paths with her? Did she go to 741 00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:32,880 Speaker 1: p X, you know, because if you're if you're on 742 00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:36,520 Speaker 1: active duty right here, and people that don't know, I'm 743 00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:39,000 Speaker 1: just going to tell you it's one of the upsides 744 00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:41,719 Speaker 1: of you know, being part of a military family as well, 745 00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:44,600 Speaker 1: they deserve it. You know. You can go to p 746 00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:46,840 Speaker 1: X and you get a lot better deals on things, 747 00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:49,200 Speaker 1: you know, like your groceries. You can get things, you know, 748 00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:51,000 Speaker 1: like you can get your gas, well you used to 749 00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:54,360 Speaker 1: get you used to get your gas really inexpensively, you know, 750 00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:57,560 Speaker 1: on post. It's not necessarily the same as it used 751 00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:00,520 Speaker 1: to be. And uh, you know, there's other things that 752 00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:02,680 Speaker 1: you have access to that you would not otherwise have 753 00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:06,319 Speaker 1: access to. So that community is kind of small. And 754 00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:15,640 Speaker 1: I'm really wondering, had this perpetrator, the Stephen Smirk, had 755 00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:18,279 Speaker 1: he been pushing a grocery cart in the PX at 756 00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:21,200 Speaker 1: some point time, did he look across aisle and his 757 00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:24,719 Speaker 1: eyes fell on a robin? Did he look at her 758 00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:28,799 Speaker 1: to see that precious little girl, you know, maybe in 759 00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:31,719 Speaker 1: the seat of a buggy, that's what we call him 760 00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:36,239 Speaker 1: down south, grocery buggies, right pushing along. Did he have 761 00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:39,799 Speaker 1: that kind of awareness, you know, to see her, to 762 00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:43,359 Speaker 1: watch her, to develop some kind of lust after her. 763 00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:48,480 Speaker 1: He left behind his DNA because Dave, and this has 764 00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:54,200 Speaker 1: happened in other cases as well, he cleaned up. He 765 00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:58,760 Speaker 1: cleaned up at the house. He admits to this because 766 00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:01,080 Speaker 1: he's rolled over on this. Now as a matter of fact, 767 00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:05,680 Speaker 1: he's been sentenced to seventy years in prison. He's caught. 768 00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:09,359 Speaker 1: He was what twenty two years old when this occurred. 769 00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:14,880 Speaker 1: He he rolled over on this and confessed to the police. 770 00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:19,880 Speaker 1: Now two, there's two things that are said. Initially, it 771 00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:22,840 Speaker 1: was said that he was a serial killer and he 772 00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:25,919 Speaker 1: killed one He told cops that if it wasn't Now 773 00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:28,480 Speaker 1: here's the thing that really makes me angry about this. 774 00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:34,600 Speaker 1: Stephen Smart actually makes a comment about his own family. 775 00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:41,359 Speaker 1: This guy says that if it hadn't been for my 776 00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:45,640 Speaker 1: wife and my children, I would have become a serial killer. 777 00:49:49,360 --> 00:50:02,200 Speaker 1: Guess what, Robin and Ollie had a child. She's never 778 00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:05,279 Speaker 1: going to see her mama again. This guy had the 779 00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:10,000 Speaker 1: option of living an entire life now because he's in 780 00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:11,279 Speaker 1: his fifties. 781 00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:11,640 Speaker 2: He's fifty three. 782 00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:17,200 Speaker 1: He has admitted to this, he has been convicted of it, 783 00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:21,600 Speaker 1: and he's been sentenced to seventy years in the penitentiary. Now, 784 00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:24,680 Speaker 1: if they do what they're say they're going to do 785 00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:28,480 Speaker 1: with this guy, and there's no possibility of parole, there's 786 00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:37,480 Speaker 1: a chance, there's a chance that he is going to 787 00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:45,160 Speaker 1: die in prison. However, there's somebody else serving a princident 788 00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:52,600 Speaker 1: sentence not of her own making, and that's Nicole. She's 789 00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:55,200 Speaker 1: going to have to bear this burden the rest of 790 00:50:55,239 --> 00:51:03,000 Speaker 1: her life because of decisions that this animal made to 791 00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:07,720 Speaker 1: rob the world of a mama who loved her kid, 792 00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:11,239 Speaker 1: robbed her of a relationship that she would have had 793 00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:15,760 Speaker 1: where she could have brought her babies to her mama 794 00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:21,400 Speaker 1: to be held and comforted when they cried. I hope 795 00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:23,560 Speaker 1: that she has no memory. I hope that she has 796 00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:25,920 Speaker 1: no memory of that night. I hope that it's something 797 00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:32,520 Speaker 1: that maybe, through the mercy of God, was spared. But 798 00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:37,600 Speaker 1: I do know this. He's off the street, and this 799 00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:40,319 Speaker 1: is one more thing I'm hoping for. I hope that 800 00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:44,200 Speaker 1: they have his DNA, which they obviously do, and I 801 00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:46,919 Speaker 1: hope that they stay on the case with this guy, 802 00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:52,160 Speaker 1: because anybody that would use the term serial killer, I'm wondering, 803 00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:57,680 Speaker 1: just wondering if there are any other cases out there. 804 00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:05,040 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybucks