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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to stuff

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Speaker 1: I've never told your protection of I Heart Radio. Before

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Speaker 1: we get started in this one today, we did want

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Speaker 1: to put a quick trigger warning. We are going to

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Speaker 1: be discussing topics of sexualization, especially of young girls, and

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Speaker 1: potentially molestation, UM and abuse like that. Uh. It's always

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Speaker 1: interesting when you put these trigger warnings at the top

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Speaker 1: before you've recorded it. Uh. I'm not really sure how

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Speaker 1: far is it's going to go into that. I don't

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Speaker 1: think we're gonna get to in depth, but if that's

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Speaker 1: something you're worried about, I want to put that out there.

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Speaker 1: And we also want to welcome a guest because today

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Speaker 1: we are once again joined by Jamie Loftus of the

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Speaker 1: Bechdel Cast and the new podcast called the Low LEGDA Podcast.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us, Jamie. I'm so

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Speaker 1: excited to be here. Thank you for having me. Yes

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Speaker 1: you last time you were here. I totally had to

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Speaker 1: look it up because it feels like literally ten million

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Speaker 1: years ago. How he was. I was wondering that. I

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Speaker 1: was like, how that I have lost all concept of time?

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Speaker 1: When right? I think it was two and a half

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Speaker 1: years ago for me. So that I was like, we

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Speaker 1: just met. Yes, remember how long I've been with the podcast?

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Speaker 1: I was like, uh before them, Yes, yes, I believe

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Speaker 1: it was soon and a half years ago. And we

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Speaker 1: were discussing basically mothers in movies and like evil stepmothers

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Speaker 1: and evils and stuff like that. Yeah, which was which

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Speaker 1: was fun. Um So, we're so glad to have you back.

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Speaker 1: And today we wanted to talk about your new podcast,

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Speaker 1: the lead to podcast and um issues that you delve

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Speaker 1: into in that show. But I guess first, for people

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Speaker 1: who also have a weird concept of time, can you

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Speaker 1: introduce you see yourself and tell us a little bit

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Speaker 1: about yourself? Sure? So I'm a comedian by trade, which

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Speaker 1: sounds weird matched up with this podcast, but it's true.

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Speaker 1: Uh So, I'm a comedian and podcaster and TV writer.

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Speaker 1: I host The Bechdel Cast, which is a feminist movie

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Speaker 1: podcast that's been on my Heart radio for four years

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Speaker 1: today four more years. Uh but but and yeah, I've

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Speaker 1: also hosted um investigative shows. I did a show called

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Speaker 1: My Year in Mensa earlier where I spent a year

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Speaker 1: uh in mensa and kind of getting to the bottom

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Speaker 1: of um a, you know, low level Supremacy group basically.

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Speaker 1: And uh, then for the past six months I've been

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Speaker 1: working on Lolita podcasts. So it's been it's been more

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Speaker 1: of a depressing year for for work, but but I'm

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Speaker 1: happy to be doing it. So you're just doing the

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Speaker 1: thing and making it all like dooming gloom a little bit,

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Speaker 1: just doubling and tripling down. Yeah, I feel like that

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Speaker 1: fits in with this show. We cover a lot of

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Speaker 1: fun topics, but many of them always have like this

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Speaker 1: tinge of but also patriarchy. Yes, exactly. We've been doing

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Speaker 1: that on the on the Bechtel Cast too, or like

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Speaker 1: we'll do three depressing movies and then we're like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna do Flubber today because otherwise we're going to

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Speaker 1: start to lose the thread. So yeah, yes, Um, so

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Speaker 1: can you tell us a little bit about the Lolita podcast? Uh? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is a project that has been kind of in

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Speaker 1: the back of my mind for several years now because, um,

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Speaker 1: growing up, I definitely read Lolita far too young and

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Speaker 1: it really affected I read it when I was twelve,

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Speaker 1: I think maybe even eleven, and it really affected me

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Speaker 1: in a way that was not helpful, and for years

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Speaker 1: I found myself saying like, oh, it's my favorite book.

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Speaker 1: But it was because it had been recommended to me

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Speaker 1: by my favorite children's author, and I had no context.

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Speaker 1: I had no like, it had just been presented to

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Speaker 1: me the entirely wrong way. I was too young to

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Speaker 1: be reading it, and you know, all of the cultural

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Speaker 1: aesthetics surrounding it don't help you with the context at all,

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Speaker 1: and it makes it worse. Um. And so for years

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Speaker 1: I went back and reread it a couple of years

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Speaker 1: ago and was kind of and had a very different

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Speaker 1: read um of the book. And and so I've been

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Speaker 1: just spending the past six months going into well, why

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Speaker 1: is this book remembered the way it is a lot

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Speaker 1: of it has to do, I think, with the way

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Speaker 1: that it's been adapted and just and the way that

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Speaker 1: it's been talked about over the years. So that's what

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Speaker 1: I'm doing this ten hour podcast about, is kind of

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Speaker 1: getting to the bottom of tracing that legacy, because I

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Speaker 1: do think it's an important example of, um, how we

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Speaker 1: treat victims of abused particularly children, and and um, how

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Speaker 1: you know, bad adaptation and you know, the the wrong

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Speaker 1: kind of cultural discussion. Essentially, can you know, take a

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Speaker 1: valuable story and turn it into something that's the exact opposite.

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Speaker 1: And so yeah, yeah, and I think, um, a couple

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Speaker 1: of disclaimers here. I suppose One, you don't have to

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Speaker 1: have read the book to listen to this podcast. Two,

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Speaker 1: I haven't read the book, So I'm really excited about

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Speaker 1: this because Three Samantha has some really strong things about

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Speaker 1: this book. Yeah, I'm excited to hear, right. I know.

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Speaker 1: It's so funny. When we were approached to having this

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Speaker 1: as a topic, I was like, oh my god, and

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Speaker 1: I think you had already talked about it even before

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Speaker 1: this came up. I don't even know why I did,

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Speaker 1: but I did have a question, what made you think

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Speaker 1: this is something that you wanted to talk about? Like

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Speaker 1: what even brought it to the forefront. I need to

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Speaker 1: reread this book. I need to, you know. And then

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Speaker 1: having that breakdown, I'm like, oh my god, this is

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Speaker 1: not what i'd expected or what I remembered from it. Uh.

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Speaker 1: I guess what made me reread it a couple of

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Speaker 1: years ago was that I was just kind of I

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Speaker 1: was talking to some friends from home, and like a

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Speaker 1: friend of mine remembered how I had had my copy

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Speaker 1: of Lolita, like taken by my gym teacher when I

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Speaker 1: was in middle school and they were kind of like

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Speaker 1: teasing me about it, and I was just I don't know, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I was just like wow, I like it just hadn't

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Speaker 1: struck me. How like off it was that I had

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Speaker 1: been so determined to read it so young, And so

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Speaker 1: that was I just wanted to revisit it, basically, because

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Speaker 1: especially like doing a show like The Petel Cast, I'm

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Speaker 1: constantly in the mode of like, oh, that media I

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Speaker 1: consumed as a child, you know, most likely me up

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Speaker 1: in some way, but I don't even know how, you know. Um,

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Speaker 1: And so yeah, so that was kind of why I

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Speaker 1: jumped back into it originally. And then, um, there's been

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Speaker 1: just so much continued discussion about it over the years,

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Speaker 1: but never in a really extended concise way, And so

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Speaker 1: I was kind of at the mind of the discussion

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Speaker 1: around this book has been so consistent. It's clearly not

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Speaker 1: going to go away. So someone should do the full

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Speaker 1: you know, do the full analysis and and you know,

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Speaker 1: go into the trilli and terrible adaptations of this project

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Speaker 1: and kind of figure out why it has had such

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Speaker 1: a negative cultural net effect. Yeah, and before we get

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Speaker 1: into that effect. And also, Samantha your why it impacted

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Speaker 1: you so much? Um, I guess for someone like me

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Speaker 1: who I have a very vague idea what this is about,

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Speaker 1: could you give a synopsis of Lolita? Yeah? So, Uh.

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Speaker 1: Lolita is a book by Vladimir in abuk of Um

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Speaker 1: that is told from the perspective of a child sex

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Speaker 1: abuser named Humbert humbert Um. He is narrating the entire book.

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Speaker 1: The book is framed uh with a foreword from a

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Speaker 1: psychologist who tells you that this is a book being

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Speaker 1: told by a child sex abuser who's trying to basically

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Speaker 1: win your favor as a reader. And so the and

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Speaker 1: and so Humbert humbert Um is basically detailing uh, this

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Speaker 1: five year period in which he's you know, molesting a

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Speaker 1: young girl named Dolores. Uh. He marries her mother in

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Speaker 1: order to get closer to her. Her mother dies, it's

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Speaker 1: probably he at it. Uh. You know that's a hot take,

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Speaker 1: but it probably he did. Um. And then he abducts

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Speaker 1: her and um, you know, has her kind of under

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Speaker 1: his caretaking as he's abusing her for several years. Uh.

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Speaker 1: She gets away when she's fourteen, and then at the end, Uh,

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Speaker 1: she's seventeen and pregnant and married and they see each

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Speaker 1: other one last time and then they both die and

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Speaker 1: that's they don't die, they die separately. He dies in prison. Uh,

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Speaker 1: but not because he was arrested for being a child

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Speaker 1: sex abuser. He gets arrested because he murdered someone else. Wow,

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Speaker 1: it's heave. It's very heavy. That was darker than I

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Speaker 1: thought it would be, and I was prepared for pretty dark. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I definitely gave her that warning. I was like, you

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Speaker 1: don't need to read the book, as in fact, don't

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Speaker 1: read the book because she's for researching in depth and

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Speaker 1: cannot just do a little bit. She must read all

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Speaker 1: of it. I'm like, no, no, no no, no, seriously, don't

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Speaker 1: read this book. It's yeah, and there's a there's like

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Speaker 1: a pretty detailed synopsis in the first episode of the

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Speaker 1: podcast for people, you know, for that exact reason, for

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Speaker 1: people who don't want to read the book, because it's

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Speaker 1: totally understandable, right, And I think you did a great job.

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Speaker 1: I listened to that episode, and uh, you also had

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Speaker 1: people call in. You have people calling in giving their opinions,

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Speaker 1: and it was really interesting to hear the back and

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Speaker 1: forth and even like as uh, because of course I

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Speaker 1: follow you on Twitter because you're amazing and hilarious and

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Speaker 1: everything is very important. Um. But like people's response to

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Speaker 1: your talking about this book, we're talking about the fact

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Speaker 1: you did a podcast, not even talking about what you're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about. People's reaction is very heated, as

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Speaker 1: mine was as well. Sure, obviously, what are some of

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Speaker 1: the commonalities that you've gotten in this reactions from people? Um,

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Speaker 1: it's been kind of an interesting mix, but it falls

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Speaker 1: into a few kind of common categories. Um, there are there.

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Speaker 1: There were especially when I had just announced the podcast

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Speaker 1: and not released anything, there were a bunch of listeners

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Speaker 1: that are like, I don't like this book. I don't

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Speaker 1: like its legacy, I don't like the fact that it exists. UM,

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Speaker 1: and you know, I think kind of like, you know,

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Speaker 1: just had a very strong negative reaction to it. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: that's because of their own personal histories as well. UM,

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Speaker 1: So that's certainly one common reaction. There's other people who

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Speaker 1: were like I did get a lot out of this book, um,

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Speaker 1: sometimes based with on you know, similar histories of abuse

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Speaker 1: and you know, having I don't know, there's so many

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Speaker 1: ways to approach it, where some people enjoyed the book,

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Speaker 1: but they felt guilty for enjoying the book and they

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Speaker 1: wanted to unpack, like what that was. There are the

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Speaker 1: people who absolutely despise the book. Uh, there were a

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Speaker 1: lot of people who hadn't read the book, but we're

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Speaker 1: only familiar with the aesthetics and the cultural legacy of it.

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Speaker 1: And then there were a lot a lot of scholars

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Speaker 1: who um are into Lolita fashion, which has nothing to

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Speaker 1: do with the book, and they were like, please leave

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Speaker 1: us out of this narrative. So those for the common

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Speaker 1: those are the common reactions which I want to come

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Speaker 1: back to. Because I was like, what what Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I've never heard of this, right. I mentioned it to

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Speaker 1: eight because, like I said, as I was reading this,

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Speaker 1: I was like, what is Okay, Well, we'll come back,

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Speaker 1: but we do want to come back to d um

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Speaker 1: But as we were talking about what's happening with the

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Speaker 1: cultural perspective of Lolita and why it has grown into

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Speaker 1: such way, I am one of those that caught caught

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Speaker 1: up because I did, like you mentioned in your episode,

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Speaker 1: forget the prologue. I absolutely forgot because it's been fifteen

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Speaker 1: years since i've read it. Sure. Look, I can't remember

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Speaker 1: time over fifteen years, probably like twenty years actually since

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Speaker 1: I've read it, but it's definitely impacted me. But everything

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Speaker 1: else I remembered, and so the way you framed it,

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Speaker 1: I was like, Oh, you're right, it is this way,

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Speaker 1: But can you talk about what this book has done

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Speaker 1: in that perspective of how we see especially because the

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Speaker 1: turn of Lolita has its own meaning, it is a

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Speaker 1: whole other Urban dictionary level of meaning, as well as

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Speaker 1: the origins of the word and in fete, which I

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Speaker 1: will never forget reading that. Yeah, oh absolutely, There's so

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Speaker 1: many like very very dark parts of this book that

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Speaker 1: I just I remember reading as a kid and just

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Speaker 1: being like, God, Jesus Christ, you know it is I

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Speaker 1: genuinely I don't. I think it's and it's and it's

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Speaker 1: unrealistic to think that. You know, kids will not get

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Speaker 1: their hands on books if they truly want to, but

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Speaker 1: I really hope they don't on this one. It's like

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Speaker 1: extremely extremely um heavy. But the sorry, wait, what was

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Speaker 1: the question I just got? I have a habit of

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Speaker 1: double questioning questions, So you asked the question was specifically about,

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Speaker 1: you know, the the cultural connotations behind it with like

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Speaker 1: the word lolita and then fete and which is this

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Speaker 1: is the beginning of where we see it created. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so I think that that happens almost instantaneously when the

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Speaker 1: book is released. Um, the way that it's received and

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Speaker 1: the culture it's kind of received into kind of immediately

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Speaker 1: misses the point. Um. And that's something that I've gotten

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Speaker 1: into where there there's you know, people feel whichever way

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Speaker 1: they feel about the book. Um, it does seem that

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Speaker 1: Nabokov's intent was to tell a cautionary tale that clearly

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Speaker 1: condemns the protagonist. But that immediately you see in the

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Speaker 1: reviews of the book that a lot of like sis

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Speaker 1: white male reviewers of this book do not understand that

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Speaker 1: at all, and they immediately start branding it like a

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Speaker 1: love story and like you've got a hand it to

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Speaker 1: Humbert Hume Burt and you know, just immediately missing the

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Speaker 1: fact that the you know, just ignoring the fact that

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Speaker 1: you're told that this is a you know, serial abuser

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Speaker 1: on the first page and buying into the protagonist who

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Speaker 1: is lying to you to try to, you know, save

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Speaker 1: save himself from having to spend life in prison. And

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Speaker 1: and so um, that happens the second the book is released,

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Speaker 1: and um continues to happen in all the adaptations. There's

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Speaker 1: really no adaptation that exists that isn't just missing the point.

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Speaker 1: It's also for there's just this this trend of of

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Speaker 1: picking creators to adapt this story that like are uniquely

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Speaker 1: qualified to miss the point. It's just like it's just

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Speaker 1: above and beyond. So it happens pretty much right away,

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Speaker 1: and UH never really has course corrected up until you know, recently,

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Speaker 1: there's been more of an interest in viewing the text

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Speaker 1: from a survivor's perspective and UM from a female perspective.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of really interesting trans perspectives on this book.

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Speaker 1: But it's just these perspectives are just sort of starting

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Speaker 1: to come to the front now. It's for so long

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Speaker 1: just been adapted by white guys who seem to really

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Speaker 1: have a lot of contempt uh for the protagonist, and

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Speaker 1: so that kind of carries through. But there has been

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Speaker 1: over the years, you know, It's it's the internet communities

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Speaker 1: that have formed around that are there's myriad there's so

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Speaker 1: many uh and and they all sort of have their

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Speaker 1: perspective on on the text. So it's weird there's kind

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Speaker 1: of like an underground reclamation effort. But you know, all

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Speaker 1: the all the large adaptations have been done by UM

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Speaker 1: people who I think just completely missed the point. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and that's kind of uh, you know, we were talking

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Speaker 1: about my heavy reaction as a social worker who worked

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Speaker 1: with children. I specifically worked with abused children UM with

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Speaker 1: the Child and Family Children's Services that when I read this,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't because I knew anything about it. I actually

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Speaker 1: knew hardly anything. I knew the turn of Little Leader

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Speaker 1: at this point, but I didn't quite understand the point

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Speaker 1: of this book. And then I went into college, where

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Speaker 1: of course I did my English Forces and my you know,

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Speaker 1: literary people who loved books said this was their favorite book.

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Speaker 1: And I had like four different people telling me this

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Speaker 1: um Win back to back to back. So I was like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I need to I need to read this. I need

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Speaker 1: to figure out what this is. And I read it

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Speaker 1: and I was so angry. I was so angry coming

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Speaker 1: from a person as a survivor as well as a

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Speaker 1: person who was an advocate and who has worked with

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Speaker 1: children for a while. Now seeing this and having this

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Speaker 1: moment of like, this is what pedophiles would use as

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Speaker 1: an excuse the language that's used within this and of

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Speaker 1: course realizing you know, the perspective is from a pedophile

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Speaker 1: from the actual Molluster is saying this is love and

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Speaker 1: just like how you saying, like people call this a

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Speaker 1: love story, which was told to me, was told that,

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Speaker 1: like I was explained as that from someone who I

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Speaker 1: saw as they were a t a in my English

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Speaker 1: class who told me this, and I was pissed. I

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Speaker 1: was beyond pissed, and ever since then, I'm like, this

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Speaker 1: is absurd, and yes, the book is written well, like,

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Speaker 1: there's no denying that he is an amazing writer. And

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Speaker 1: I went so far as to disprove about this book

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Speaker 1: that I went and got pell Fire and immediately read it.

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Speaker 1: I was like, why can't you say this is your favorite?

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Speaker 1: There are I always I'm like, there are like so

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Speaker 1: many of the bunk up books that are not about

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Speaker 1: the most horrifying crime of person commit Like that is

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Speaker 1: very sad, and it's still still sad upset, but it's

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Speaker 1: at this level where the excuses, well it seems like

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Speaker 1: they're excusing their behaviors against a child. But I was like,

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Speaker 1: what the hell, But that's like That's how far I went,

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Speaker 1: not even having anything to do with this as my

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Speaker 1: school work. I was like, I'm not allowing this to stand.

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Speaker 1: Like even to this day, I'm like, this is not

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Speaker 1: the best y'all, just shut up. But it kind of

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Speaker 1: does bring that whole conversation of people individually interpreting it.

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Speaker 1: As you said, for the longest time, it was the

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Speaker 1: sister hetero mel who was like, Yeah, this is just fine,

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Speaker 1: this is perfect. And you even gave examples of past

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Speaker 1: literary workers and today who kind of says the same

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Speaker 1: thing about and we see that pattern of these older

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Speaker 1: men grooming young women and saying it's love. Um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: can you talk a little more about like why you

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Speaker 1: see that? Uh why, I don't know if you know

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Speaker 1: the answers, but like how it latches on to that

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Speaker 1: kind of perspective. So I guess one thing that I

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Speaker 1: look because what was really kind of like gnawing at

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Speaker 1: me when I started, and like a huge question I

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Speaker 1: had was like why did Nabokov right this? Like why why,

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Speaker 1: Like you have to have there has to be a reason, um.

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Speaker 1: And so I went back and I spoke to his

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Speaker 1: biographers and I went kind of deep into his life

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Speaker 1: to see like he was not an abuser. There, there's

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Speaker 1: no behavioral patterns like that. But I did find that

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Speaker 1: he had been a survivor of child sexual abuse himself,

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Speaker 1: and which kind of put it into perspective for me

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Speaker 1: a little more. It was never something he talked about publicly,

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Speaker 1: but his biographer was like, well, this was like a

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Speaker 1: common theme in his early life, and so there is

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Speaker 1: this throw line in Nabokov's work where children are abused

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Speaker 1: and ignored and disbelieved, And so it was that was

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Speaker 1: just the kind of an interesting um thought to connect

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Speaker 1: to be because I could never really track, you know,

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Speaker 1: why what is his fixation on this theme? And it

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Speaker 1: seems like I can't ask him, but it seems like

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Speaker 1: it could have conceivably been something personal. Um As to

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Speaker 1: how how people have consistently taken it out of context,

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's there's a million examples of it. The

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Speaker 1: earliest adaptation is the Stanley Kuberck movie from nineteen sixty two,

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Speaker 1: and that one is I mean, they're all bad. This

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Speaker 1: one is particularly so because it just sets up a

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Speaker 1: lot of the common adaptation changes that you know, kind

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Speaker 1: of manipulate the general public into thinking that this is

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Speaker 1: acceptable and that Lolita or Dolores, depending on how you

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Speaker 1: referred to her, but that she could possibly be a

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Speaker 1: consenting party, which she can't. But the nineteen sixties doesn't

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Speaker 1: view it that way. Stanley Kuber, who has a god

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Speaker 1: awful track record in terms of female characters working with women,

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Speaker 1: you know at all, he's just not the person to

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Speaker 1: be doing it. And then um, on top of that,

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Speaker 1: there there was a story that broke just less than

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Speaker 1: two months ago that detailed that the producer of the

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Speaker 1: movie had allegedly sexually abused the star, the actress who

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Speaker 1: was playing Lovelita. So it's there is this just through

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Speaker 1: line of it couldn't be more clear that the people

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Speaker 1: put in charge of UM telling this story uh have

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Speaker 1: no interest in actually telling it. They're more interested in

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Speaker 1: empowering the abuser. And it just basically demonstrates that they've fallen,

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Speaker 1: uh fallen for it. They've fallen for the lies that

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Speaker 1: this protagonist is telling, and they're taking his worldview at

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Speaker 1: face value, which is an extremely dangerous road to go down.

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Speaker 1: And then the other thing about about the first adaptation

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Speaker 1: is like, I feel like the most potent cultural image

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Speaker 1: of Lolita is the you know, girl gazing over the glasses,

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Speaker 1: which is not something that even appears in the movie.

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Speaker 1: It's not something that appears in any adaptation. It was

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Speaker 1: just strictly marketing of like male gaze driven marketing. And

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Speaker 1: so that to me is like one of the most

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Speaker 1: concise examples that and the way that the covers of

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Speaker 1: the book are designed that it's just like, well, it's

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Speaker 1: it's not just an issue with this book in particular,

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Speaker 1: it's it's an issue with how we characterize these stories

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Speaker 1: at all. That the fact that all the you know,

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Speaker 1: marketing images are blaming the victims of abuse just before

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Speaker 1: you even open the book. Um, that like says something

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Speaker 1: about the culture it's being released into and what they

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Speaker 1: think is going to be marketable to people. We have

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Speaker 1: some more for you listeners, but first we have a

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Speaker 1: quick break for word from our sponsor and we're back.

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Speaker 1: Thank you sponsored again. From my my perspective of never

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Speaker 1: I never read it, I've never seen an adaption in

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Speaker 1: Samantha was kind of my like entry way into Lolita,

397
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Speaker 1: and uh, we were talking about it in terms of

398
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Speaker 1: that whole blaming the victim thing of of it being framed.

399
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Speaker 1: Is this love story and how how common we do

400
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 1: see that and not just Lolita, like that is everywhere

401
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 1: in our in our entertainment, in our culture, and so

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Speaker 1: I guess I'm kind of curious. I guess we're gonna

403
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 1: double question too. One like when people say it's their

404
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Speaker 1: favorite book, or when you Stanley Kuberck makes this adaption

405
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:08,119
Speaker 1: and it's clearly missing the point, why do you think

406
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:12,720
Speaker 1: that is? And then just on a larger scale, this

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Speaker 1: sexualization of young girls, Um, why does that? Kind of

408
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:21,439
Speaker 1: know the answer, but I'd like to talk about it.

409
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Speaker 1: Why is it so prevalent? Like why do we see

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Speaker 1: that all over? In terms of I mean, I honestly,

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Speaker 1: I have never found an argument for someone saying that

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Speaker 1: one of the movie adaptations being one of their favorite

413
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Speaker 1: movies to be convincing, compelling, or like grounded in reality.

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Speaker 1: I think it's like a severe red flag if someone's

415
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Speaker 1: like Stanley Kubrick's Lolita to me is great film, Like

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Speaker 1: it's it's just not and it there's I feel like

417
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Speaker 1: there's just nothing really to be taken from the movie

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00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 1: adaptations other than very you know it, They're they're very

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Speaker 1: revealing about the views of the time they were released.

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Speaker 1: Into but if you don't want to know what in

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00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 1: which ways the Grand American culture was like willing to

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00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 1: accept victim blaming in either ninety two or there's nothing

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Speaker 1: for you there? And I mean, yeah, I've really really

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Speaker 1: disliked the movie adaptations and some of the stage adaptations

425
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,720
Speaker 1: as well. It's just bad, bad, bad, bad bad. Uh.

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Speaker 1: In terms of the book, there there is, I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's just what what I've found is it's a very

428
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 1: personal reaction that everyone has with this book. I mean,

429
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:44,960
Speaker 1: there's and what I'm more interested in is how survivors

430
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:49,320
Speaker 1: of abuse feel about it, how um, you know, professionals

431
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 1: and the psychology field feel about it, and just kind

432
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 1: of getting to the bottom of Like this book definitely

433
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 1: really affected me enough that I'm making a podcast about

434
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 1: it fifteen years later. Um, and is it a worthwhile

435
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,200
Speaker 1: text to even still kind of be out there and

436
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 1: reckoning with with that? And I've gotten I mean, there's

437
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 1: a lot of different answers and a lot of a

438
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 1: lot of perspectives I honestly wasn't even aware of existing,

439
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 1: but there are. There was an amazing piece in a

440
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 1: Modern Love column a couple of years ago that details

441
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 1: the experience of a survivor of child sexual abuse who

442
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 1: used the book, you know, used the character of Dolores

443
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 1: Hayes to kind of empower herself to report her abuser

444
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 1: to uh the authorities and to the police. And there's

445
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 1: there's been it's it's it gets so mired because this

446
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:50,879
Speaker 1: book has been used so irresponsibly to empower the villain.

447
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 1: But there are also reads of it that you know,

448
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 1: victims of abuse have reclaimed it and really searched for

449
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 1: the abused child that is in the book's pages and

450
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,879
Speaker 1: pull from that as kind of an argument that it

451
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 1: that it is still a very relevant text. And so

452
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 1: that's something that has been a whole journey for me

453
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,680
Speaker 1: as well, and I've spoken with It's also kind of

454
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:23,439
Speaker 1: a split view in the psychology field of like, you know,

455
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:26,200
Speaker 1: whether we like it or not, this is still a

456
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:31,679
Speaker 1: very you know, potent text that is very present, and

457
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 1: it's like figuring out it's there, So how are we

458
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:36,639
Speaker 1: going to deal with it? What are we gonna do

459
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 1: with it? And how can we kind of stop the

460
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 1: messaging that exists around it and at least, you know,

461
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 1: turn the discussion to something productive that doesn't serve to

462
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 1: further harm people and talking with child psychologists has has

463
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 1: been interesting in that regard too, because there's you know,

464
00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 1: the read where it's empowering the villain and it's empowering

465
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 1: abusers of the highest degree. And then there's also the

466
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 1: read that I've spoken to several psychologists about saying that

467
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 1: they teach it to their psychology students in terms of

468
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 1: like this is how an abuser could think, and keeping

469
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 1: in mind with students like the fact that I don't know,

470
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 1: I feel like it's almost a different common cultural trope

471
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 1: that abusers are like a very particular way, and there

472
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 1: it's very rarely depicted as someone you know and someone

473
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 1: who is close to you, and that's who this protagonist is.

474
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 1: I mean, he does all of the classic grooming techniques.

475
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 1: He gets himself and he beds himself in the family.

476
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 1: He does all of these things that you know are

477
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 1: our emblematic of what many people have done in real life.

478
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 1: And I think why it it's so triggering for a

479
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 1: lot of people is because he's doing things that a

480
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 1: lot of people um have done and continue to do.

481
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 1: And so it's just it's so an individual experience in

482
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 1: terms of the book that from a survivor perspective. Every

483
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 1: reading is completely valid, and there's there's so many ways

484
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 1: to look at it, and it's been like just completely

485
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 1: mind bending to, um learn all these different perspectives on

486
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 1: on the same book. Yeah, this is actually I've been

487
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 1: thinking about this a lot lately because, um, when Samantha

488
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:33,959
Speaker 1: first came on, we did a whole like twelve episode

489
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 1: series on trauma and specifically like sexual trauma, and as

490
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 1: a survivor myself, I only just got the courage to

491
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 1: admit on this show that I have written rape scenes

492
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 1: before and I've never published them and I probably never will,

493
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 1: and they're from you know, the survivor's point of view,

494
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 1: and they're uh, it feels weird to say because they're

495
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 1: not published, but they're not gratuitous or whatever. But it's

496
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 1: I have an anxiety around that, around like the juxtaposition

497
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 1: of entertainment of this horrific thing that is in fact

498
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 1: so often taken in the wrong way by our culture

499
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 1: and portrayed perhaps as victim blaming, and yeah, getting entertainment

500
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 1: from that. But at the same time, I do think

501
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 1: there's value in in those stories because they happen. They happen,

502
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 1: and and I just I don't know if you can

503
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 1: connect to that at all. This like anxiety between those

504
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 1: two things. And I think part of it is like

505
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 1: a careful telling from somebody who is a survivor from

506
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 1: their point of view and making scenery on them, and

507
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 1: that almost never happens in our entertainment are and how

508
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 1: people interpret our entertainment. Yeah, I don't Yeah, I'm I'm

509
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 1: coming to this story from a from a survivor perspective

510
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 1: as well, and it I don't know. I mean, it's

511
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 1: part of what I've I've been trying to do. Is she,

512
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 1: you know, the the victim is really difficult to find

513
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 1: in the pages of this book, and that's a lot

514
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 1: of the issues. I think of the common common bad

515
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 1: reads of this book is that if you're not trained

516
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 1: to look for her, then it's really difficult to find her.

517
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 1: I do think that she's in there, but you know,

518
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 1: even the title of the book is creating distance between

519
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 1: you and the victim because Lolita is not her actual name.

520
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 1: Her actual name is Dolores. Lolita is kind of this

521
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 1: um fantasy that a sex abuser is projecting onto her

522
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 1: and taking advantage of. But when you hear about Dolores.

523
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 1: You're like, you have to constantly remind yourself, this is

524
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 1: a twelve year old girl. And when you're hearing about Dolores,

525
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 1: you're hearing about a normal kid who is caught in

526
00:32:55,240 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 1: the most horrifying ordeal that anyone can be caught. And

527
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 1: I totally agree with you, like, there need to be

528
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 1: more narratives that are centered on victims and survivors or

529
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 1: or however you're referring to to it um because the

530
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 1: fact that there isn't is kind of why I think

531
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 1: bad reads of books like Lolita are able to be

532
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 1: perpetuated so much is because there's no no popular media

533
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 1: that you know, shows the other, the other side of

534
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 1: that situation. So if you're like some you know, English

535
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 1: one oh one dweeb who just wants to bandwagon and

536
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 1: be like it's the greatest book ever and you're not

537
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 1: actually reading it, you know, what do you have to

538
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 1: compare it to? And and there's it's not to say

539
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 1: that those narratives don't exist, but they don't exist in

540
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 1: the gigantic, you know, predator centered perspective like Lolita is.

541
00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 1: And that I mean we could go into like great

542
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 1: writers of like quote unquote great writers of the literary canon.

543
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 1: Who is granted that title and who isn't and and

544
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:09,319
Speaker 1: you know, we could go and go and go on that,

545
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 1: but yeah, I think that part of the reason people

546
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:19,360
Speaker 1: misread and fixate on predators centered narratives is because they

547
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 1: haven't sought out the other perspective, which is extremely dangerous. Yeah,

548
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:28,799
Speaker 1: you know, that kind of brings me back to any

549
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:32,720
Speaker 1: and I were talking about Cutie's the Netflix movie that lost.

550
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:34,839
Speaker 1: Everybody lost their heads on, like like, oh my god,

551
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 1: this is all about pedophilia and they're trying to groom

552
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:40,280
Speaker 1: these kids. But in actuality, the storytelling was the opposite

553
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 1: of that, talking about girls growing up too quickly in

554
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,279
Speaker 1: a world of social media and all of that. Do

555
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:49,440
Speaker 1: you think that this stories, like people's translation of stories

556
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:53,279
Speaker 1: like Lolita, that causes people to automatically react without even

557
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 1: knowing to allow for that perspective to be showed That

558
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 1: other side of this is the horrific side. This is

559
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 1: the growing up side that we needed talk about, but

560
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 1: we can't because we're already fixated on the dirtiness. I

561
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:09,839
Speaker 1: guess for all intendent purposes of things like Lolita and

562
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 1: the cultural aspects that Stanley Kubrick did with Lolita. Yeah,

563
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:17,279
Speaker 1: I mean I think that that definitely factors in. I

564
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 1: still haven't seen Cuties, so I can't speak to that

565
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:26,320
Speaker 1: movie specifically, but um, but yeah, I that totally tracks

566
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:30,359
Speaker 1: for for me is the fact that this is like,

567
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 1: it just constantly blows my mind that there is such

568
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:39,920
Speaker 1: a gigantic cultural taboo still around talking about surviving abuse

569
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:43,719
Speaker 1: of this kind of as particularly as a child. But

570
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:48,919
Speaker 1: there's absolutely no cultural taboo and in fact, like encouragement

571
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 1: to sexualize young people like it. It's a recipe for

572
00:35:54,840 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 1: absolute disaster. And so, yeah, I haven't seen I haven't

573
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 1: seen Cuties, but it just based on the conversations I've

574
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:07,200
Speaker 1: been having and my my views are constantly kind of

575
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 1: changing and evolving, and this has been such a journey. Um.

576
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 1: But you know, it seems like there there hasn't been

577
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:20,719
Speaker 1: much of a productive cultural discussion about sex abuse of

578
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 1: children because it makes people tense up, It makes them

579
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:27,960
Speaker 1: uncomfortable to think about. It's an uncomfortable reality. But you

580
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:31,319
Speaker 1: can't you can't refuse to have that discussion and be

581
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 1: completely complicit in the sexualization of you know, young people

582
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 1: in media. It's just it's a guarantee that abuses going

583
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:47,280
Speaker 1: to continue unchallenged if if both of those things are true. Um,

584
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:49,360
Speaker 1: and I'm going to try to figure out how to

585
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 1: phrase this question because we talked about Q and on

586
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:56,239
Speaker 1: before and of course Pizza Gate and all of these

587
00:36:56,239 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 1: things which they do make abuse seem like it's obviously

588
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 1: monsters in the in the closet, you know, in the

589
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:08,759
Speaker 1: the strangers in the in the was waiting to kidnap you,

590
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:11,040
Speaker 1: and all of these things in the van instead of

591
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:14,720
Speaker 1: realizing that a lot of the times that the abuses

592
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 1: happens with people closer, like the story that is being

593
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 1: told in Lolita. Uh, I'm trying to think the connection,

594
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:25,400
Speaker 1: the disconnect between people because I I've definitely seen people

595
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:29,360
Speaker 1: uh giving leeway at Welsh. We can talk about the

596
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 1: Trump administration right now, as when we talk about Weinstein

597
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:36,400
Speaker 1: and versus also Epstein, but how they are giving passes

598
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 1: to certain people who are obviously being implicated because they

599
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 1: want to see them as heroes and they want to

600
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 1: see them as good guys. And it kind of happens

601
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 1: with like the translation of that book for some people

602
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 1: where you know, Humbert is a poor victim who just

603
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:55,319
Speaker 1: fell in love with the wrong person kind of thing,

604
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:57,799
Speaker 1: like do you see a correlation? Do you have like

605
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 1: like a better take that or then I'm trying to

606
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:05,520
Speaker 1: express No, No, I totally, I totally hear what you're saying.

607
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:09,760
Speaker 1: I It's the tricky part is like I it's I.

608
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:13,400
Speaker 1: I agree that that's true. And then the question is,

609
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 1: like what is the solution to that? Because it's there

610
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:24,120
Speaker 1: does seem to be this, especially in very radicalized communities

611
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 1: like Q and on and of like who can condemn

612
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 1: child sexual abuse the loudest versus like, yes, we absolutely

613
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,439
Speaker 1: should be condemning this, but also like let's critically think

614
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 1: about and then what you can't just say you know?

615
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 1: And and and also like you're describing creating distance between

616
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:48,640
Speaker 1: the most you know, common abusers are people that you

617
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 1: know already, and so I think that it is a

618
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:56,320
Speaker 1: very common like the the way that people gave popular

619
00:38:56,400 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 1: media figures like Epstein, like Weinstein. I just finished a

620
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 1: long rehash of Charlie Chaplin, who was just like a

621
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:11,880
Speaker 1: serial abuser was brought to court multiple times at the

622
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 1: height of his fame, and no one cared because it

623
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 1: was not a discussion that was had it was taboo,

624
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:23,239
Speaker 1: and it was easier to blame the victim than to,

625
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:27,440
Speaker 1: you know, accept the fact that the most famous movie

626
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:31,800
Speaker 1: star in the world was sexually abusing girls for years.

627
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:38,560
Speaker 1: And it's yeah, I mean, it's I'm it feels like

628
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 1: a miracle that we are, like, it's a popular discussion

629
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 1: to be having now, but it's still like, we need

630
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:49,279
Speaker 1: more results. I'm glad that discussions are happening, but the

631
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:52,920
Speaker 1: results aren't there yet. And that's why I hope, I

632
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:56,919
Speaker 1: hope if if anyone gets anything out of this podcast,

633
00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 1: it's just kind of analyzing and the deepest level I

634
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 1: can how this clear cut predator who you're told on

635
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 1: page one of the source material is a predator and

636
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:14,800
Speaker 1: does not deserve your sympathy. How has he just gotten

637
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 1: away with it and away with it and away with

638
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:20,400
Speaker 1: it and it's almost seventy years later and a large

639
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 1: swath of readers are still letting him get away with it.

640
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:27,360
Speaker 1: How does that happen? And how many levels of complicit

641
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:29,719
Speaker 1: does a culture have to be in order for that

642
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:33,720
Speaker 1: to happen. We have a little bit more for you listeners,

643
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 1: but first we have one more quick break for work

644
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:52,879
Speaker 1: from our sponsor and her back, Vicky stored, I think

645
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 1: you did a great job with bringing in uh samples

646
00:40:56,680 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 1: of different twelve year old girls, uh, actually having a

647
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 1: snippets of the interviewed and what they actually sound like,

648
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:06,239
Speaker 1: to remind this is what twelve year old is. It's

649
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 1: not this uh like, it's not this TV show eighteen

650
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:11,879
Speaker 1: year old playing a twelve year old. It is a

651
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:16,359
Speaker 1: literal child having a conversation about being excited about her

652
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 1: brand new toy or brand new phone or whatever what not.

653
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:22,440
Speaker 1: And I thought he did an amazing job and making

654
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:24,680
Speaker 1: that a reminder, but it also still like it was

655
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 1: so disappointing to see and the two that I remember specifically,

656
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 1: it was like men say, you know, you can just

657
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:33,160
Speaker 1: love a book for how beautiful it's written, just because

658
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 1: it's about the subject doesn't mean you should hate on it.

659
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 1: Like it's so like the literary bro is like, don't

660
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 1: be a hater. I'm like, I just don't have the

661
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 1: point is to be a hater. You like, Oh, it's

662
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:53,800
Speaker 1: it's it's infuriating actually like and having and I'm still

663
00:41:53,840 --> 00:42:01,920
Speaker 1: like really just like aggravated and just completely like confused

664
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:05,560
Speaker 1: as to why my favorite children's author recommended this book

665
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:09,399
Speaker 1: to children, like why would you do that? And this

666
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 1: was in you know, two thousand four, two thousand five,

667
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:15,839
Speaker 1: This was like not that long ago. It's still such

668
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 1: a normalized thing to do, and it like, I just, yeah,

669
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:23,920
Speaker 1: I want to talk to as many people about it

670
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:26,719
Speaker 1: as possible because I just feel like if the conversation

671
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:31,280
Speaker 1: hasn't had, it's just going to keep stalling and and

672
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 1: so oh it's so frustrating. Yeah, that the literary bro perspective.

673
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:40,840
Speaker 1: There's a really good Rebecca so Sulman essay. Uh in,

674
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:43,319
Speaker 1: I think it's in the Men Explained Things to Me

675
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:45,960
Speaker 1: as a collection, but it's Men Explained Well Lada to Me,

676
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 1: and it details that exact thing. And then also what

677
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 1: we were talking about of like you know, kind of

678
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:56,120
Speaker 1: literary bros playing Devil's advocate and being like, well, you know,

679
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:59,880
Speaker 1: if someone wrote a book this beautiful from a victim's perspective,

680
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:01,920
Speaker 1: I would also love it. And then she's like, okay,

681
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:07,239
Speaker 1: but where is that book? Like let's get that book?

682
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:12,200
Speaker 1: And you know, sis, male readers are not constantly confronted

683
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 1: with depictions of potentially their own abuse, and they're not

684
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:19,440
Speaker 1: really faced with that kind of triggered the way that

685
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:22,760
Speaker 1: a lot of readers of Lolita are being actively triggered,

686
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:28,480
Speaker 1: and it's just the refusal to engage from literary bros.

687
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 1: I just I just can't write. It's really it was

688
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 1: the whole thing. I was like, why, why, why are

689
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 1: you even comments some comment like I really like or

690
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:45,839
Speaker 1: even yeah, there's like people that kind of misunderstood before

691
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 1: the show started coming out, people who like misunderstood what

692
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:51,280
Speaker 1: I was trying to do with the show, and they're like, yeah,

693
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:53,879
Speaker 1: finally I want someone to say like it's a good

694
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:58,239
Speaker 1: book and I shouldn't feel bad, And it's like you

695
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 1: have to. You have to use your brain. You have

696
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:03,680
Speaker 1: to use your brain. It's the rule you gotta. I

697
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:06,319
Speaker 1: will say, I was a little like my whole like

698
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:08,719
Speaker 1: a little bit of oh no. It was because I've

699
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:10,840
Speaker 1: had so many people justified me why it's such a

700
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:13,279
Speaker 1: great book. Uh, Like I was talking about the t

701
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:15,319
Speaker 1: eight was a woman who told me how great this

702
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:16,759
Speaker 1: was and that it was a love story that I

703
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 1: was so fearful. I'm like, oh God, we can't do this,

704
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:22,759
Speaker 1: Like I got automatically got I'm like, make sure we're

705
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 1: all on the same page moment, because I definitely had

706
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 1: those moments, but I didn't want to ask you because

707
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:29,560
Speaker 1: I think this is a social worker case worker in me.

708
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:32,799
Speaker 1: When you read it as that child, what like, what

709
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:34,440
Speaker 1: made you say that was your favorite book? Was it

710
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:36,520
Speaker 1: because you were told it was supposed to be a

711
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:38,359
Speaker 1: good book or was there something in it that made

712
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:41,759
Speaker 1: you feel like, oh, this is why it's a good book. Uh.

713
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:44,400
Speaker 1: When I was a kid, it was. It was a

714
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:46,720
Speaker 1: very all over the place read. I first, I didn't

715
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:52,000
Speaker 1: fully understand it. I was, um, it was almost like

716
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:54,520
Speaker 1: I wanted to I wanted my favorite book to be

717
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:58,239
Speaker 1: my favorite author's favorite book. Um. And so I was

718
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:00,799
Speaker 1: going into it thinking I was like, well, like, if

719
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 1: this is lemony Seconds favorite book, there must be like

720
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:05,759
Speaker 1: it must be like this awesome book and I love it.

721
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 1: And so that was where I was starting with it.

722
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:13,680
Speaker 1: And then I think because I didn't have the literary

723
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:21,400
Speaker 1: tools at eleven to to fully understand the abuse taking place,

724
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 1: I was coming from a place of like what had

725
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:27,680
Speaker 1: I experienced and what was I seeing in my life

726
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 1: around this time? And what I was seeing in media

727
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 1: and just like around me was a lot of excusing

728
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 1: of this behavior. And so you're almost like I was like, oh,

729
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 1: that her suffering is I I thought as a kid,

730
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 1: which like makes me so sad to think about now,

731
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:51,799
Speaker 1: is like having it presented that her suffering was somehow justified.

732
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:55,839
Speaker 1: I was trying to be on board with that as

733
00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:58,640
Speaker 1: a kid, which is just like the it makes me

734
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:01,400
Speaker 1: so sad and I just want to give her ug

735
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:04,160
Speaker 1: and you know, kind of I've talked with a lot

736
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:06,880
Speaker 1: of people about kind of like forgiving your past self

737
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:09,560
Speaker 1: for how you first read this book, because I totally

738
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:12,839
Speaker 1: misread it. I didn't understand it. I you know, I

739
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 1: read on the cover that it was a love story.

740
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:17,280
Speaker 1: It was my favorite author's book, and so I'm like, okay,

741
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:19,840
Speaker 1: that's what I'm going in on. And you know, even

742
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 1: the you know, people in my life and the teachers

743
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 1: around you know it. It was an entire culture and

744
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:33,359
Speaker 1: environment that wouldn't have encouraged me to look at things

745
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 1: from Lolita's perspective. Um, And so I think that that

746
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:41,879
Speaker 1: is why it really upset me looking back, of like,

747
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:45,600
Speaker 1: no one told me, the only no one had a

748
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:48,800
Speaker 1: discussion with me about it. The only thing that happened

749
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:52,239
Speaker 1: is someone took the book away and then and then

750
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:54,920
Speaker 1: I never and then we never talked about it, and

751
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:58,439
Speaker 1: and a lot and I, you know, I along with

752
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 1: everything else, I I think I really internalized something harmful

753
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:09,000
Speaker 1: that encouraged me to blame abuse on myself. Um. And

754
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:12,080
Speaker 1: I wish I had had. I just wish I had

755
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:14,279
Speaker 1: had to talk about it. And I wish because I

756
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 1: think that there is a version of you know, me

757
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:21,239
Speaker 1: getting my hands on that back too early, that if

758
00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:24,120
Speaker 1: I had had a talk with an adult that I trusted,

759
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 1: I could have actually you know, taking it in a

760
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:30,719
Speaker 1: little a little better if like, no, you this is

761
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:34,480
Speaker 1: you know, almost this cautionary tale, like don't fall for

762
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 1: someone who treats you this way and talks to you

763
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:41,840
Speaker 1: this way. It's there not to be trusted. They're a criminal. Um.

764
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 1: But that wasn't how I read it, and I didn't

765
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:47,239
Speaker 1: really have anyone that I could talk to about it,

766
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:49,360
Speaker 1: and so I ended up just kind of taking away

767
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:54,040
Speaker 1: the wrong message and still being like mad about it

768
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:57,839
Speaker 1: fifteen years later. And so here, you know, here I am.

769
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:00,480
Speaker 1: I mean that's rightly, So you're not the only one

770
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:04,520
Speaker 1: obviously that has taken it to this level as well.

771
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:06,520
Speaker 1: Like it also, I think one of the things that

772
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:09,360
Speaker 1: really frustrated me about this book, even though you're looking

773
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:12,120
Speaker 1: at again the perspective and I'm again I love that

774
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 1: you actually say that, because I went away from that.

775
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 1: But it really does have this language where she is

776
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:21,359
Speaker 1: a the temptress and she knows what's going on and

777
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:23,840
Speaker 1: she's doing this too, and she's complicit, which is absolutely

778
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 1: false and it's absolutely within this mind. And I agree

779
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 1: with the psychiatrist and the child psychologists which I'm not

780
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:33,160
Speaker 1: a professional that way, and that it does help you,

781
00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:35,879
Speaker 1: Like I remember thinking this like, this is the mind

782
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:39,439
Speaker 1: of a pedophile. This is someone who truly justifies their

783
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:42,319
Speaker 1: love and abuse of children because they think, as long

784
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:44,799
Speaker 1: as I'm not hitting them, I'm not hurting them, I'm

785
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:48,560
Speaker 1: not making them constantly cry type of thing. This is love. Uh,

786
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:55,600
Speaker 1: And it's got exactly yeah, that's that's exactly like And

787
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 1: you know it's now that i'm and it's interesting, like

788
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:01,319
Speaker 1: I've talked too who have read the book, you know,

789
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:04,359
Speaker 1: as a kid, as a college student and then as

790
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:09,280
Speaker 1: a mother plugging themselves into um, you know, Dolores's mother's

791
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:12,960
Speaker 1: role because she gets I mean to say the least,

792
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:15,400
Speaker 1: an extremely raw deal out of this story as well,

793
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:19,200
Speaker 1: and it's always kind of squarely. You know, there's a

794
00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:22,320
Speaker 1: lot of different views on her, but I think people

795
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:25,600
Speaker 1: also lose the narrative that, like, you know, Humbert is

796
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:28,080
Speaker 1: also shaping your perspective of her. He makes her out

797
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:31,799
Speaker 1: to be this cruel person, this nag who hates her daughter,

798
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:35,120
Speaker 1: who can't stand her, when it seems like she is

799
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:37,359
Speaker 1: a mother, a single mother of a twelve year old,

800
00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:41,319
Speaker 1: and they argue like that that was me and my

801
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:45,240
Speaker 1: mom and she was not a you know, horrific monster.

802
00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:47,759
Speaker 1: But then you're like, well, who is shaping your perspective here?

803
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:53,880
Speaker 1: Who benefits from you thinking that this woman was expendable

804
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:57,280
Speaker 1: and in fact bad for the person that he wanted

805
00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:03,400
Speaker 1: to abuse. So there's so it's just it's it's so much,

806
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:06,800
Speaker 1: and I feel like it's just this very like central

807
00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:12,040
Speaker 1: example of a lot of bigger cultural issues, and it's

808
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:14,279
Speaker 1: not going away. This is the other thing is like,

809
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:17,239
Speaker 1: if I thought that there was any hope that this

810
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:20,719
Speaker 1: story would kind of fade away, um and and be

811
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 1: kind of have its place taken, then I wouldn't have

812
00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:25,880
Speaker 1: even done the project. But it's it's still so present

813
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:30,080
Speaker 1: that um, yeah, it is. I mean it's it's kind

814
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:33,080
Speaker 1: of frustrating, I feel again, that's all. I'm like, hell fire,

815
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:35,640
Speaker 1: I tried this book instead, Like I don't really really

816
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:39,239
Speaker 1: want to change that too. But yeah, I think you

817
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:41,640
Speaker 1: are absolutely correct. And when you were talking about being

818
00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:44,680
Speaker 1: a child not understanding what this is and having this

819
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:49,040
Speaker 1: level again, this is kind of underhanded grooming from the

820
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:53,719
Speaker 1: author and himself sure and being like this is no,

821
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:57,560
Speaker 1: this is the greatest book ever, and trying to having

822
00:50:57,560 --> 00:51:00,000
Speaker 1: this Maybe he doesn't understand. I don't know, I will.

823
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:02,120
Speaker 1: I won't say I know for sure, But like this

824
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:07,000
Speaker 1: influence of saying this and and bringing out this cultural

825
00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:10,720
Speaker 1: idea that this is the ultimate love story and therefore

826
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:12,479
Speaker 1: we should all be accepting of this. And we see

827
00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:16,520
Speaker 1: this constantly, whether it's celebrities continue to date barely eighteen

828
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:19,480
Speaker 1: twenty year olds and justifying it and saying it's okay,

829
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:23,040
Speaker 1: um because you know they're adult enough, and and justifying

830
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:25,839
Speaker 1: a woman a girl's actions by saying she's older than

831
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:29,560
Speaker 1: she seems, which is again a constant narrative, and and

832
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:32,520
Speaker 1: being a child wanting to be seen that way like that,

833
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:39,040
Speaker 1: it feeds all into perspective. It's it's, it's it yeah,

834
00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:42,160
Speaker 1: And then on top of that, it's sorry, I could

835
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:45,439
Speaker 1: like talk about this wherever it's like on my mind,

836
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:50,759
Speaker 1: but um yeah, I mean even speaking with with um

837
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:55,120
Speaker 1: child psychologists as well as a perspective, I I was like, oh,

838
00:51:55,239 --> 00:51:57,399
Speaker 1: I think that this is like something I needed to hear.

839
00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:02,560
Speaker 1: Um just like in her child why is where you know?

840
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:05,920
Speaker 1: She she was she's this amazing psychologist named um Lucy A.

841
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:09,560
Speaker 1: Williams who has worked in this field for decades, and

842
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:13,360
Speaker 1: she was like, well, you know, and it's it's equally

843
00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:19,279
Speaker 1: telling that you know, Dolores is a twelve year old,

844
00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:22,160
Speaker 1: she's a pubuzz and girl. She's coming into her own sexually,

845
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:26,560
Speaker 1: and you know, if that is used against her and

846
00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:29,560
Speaker 1: in a way that like incourage that makes it feel

847
00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:32,640
Speaker 1: unsafe for you to come into your own sexuality and

848
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 1: have interests and want to explore and have that just

849
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:41,600
Speaker 1: be completely taken from you and exploited to the highest degree,

850
00:52:41,719 --> 00:52:44,959
Speaker 1: and in the way that it's described in the book,

851
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:49,480
Speaker 1: really you know, stunts her emotional growth and causes her

852
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:52,279
Speaker 1: to really go inward. And there's there's these scenes in

853
00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:55,319
Speaker 1: the book that no one ever talks about because there

854
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:59,279
Speaker 1: they don't serve the main narrative of of how this

855
00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:03,600
Speaker 1: book is present did. But there's scenes where you know,

856
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:08,880
Speaker 1: they're talking to the principle of um Dolores's school and

857
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:13,200
Speaker 1: they're talking about how she is, you know, really not

858
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:15,720
Speaker 1: doing well. She won't talk to people, she's not able

859
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:18,560
Speaker 1: to open up, and it just breaks your heart because

860
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:22,400
Speaker 1: you're just like, it is there, you know, the clear

861
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:27,799
Speaker 1: science that she is you know, abused, she's confused, she's

862
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:31,479
Speaker 1: suffering so much, and you're being told this, but as

863
00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:36,080
Speaker 1: a lot of readers are just not taking it in

864
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:39,720
Speaker 1: and it's like, well, why why is it so hard

865
00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:42,919
Speaker 1: to take in if it is you know, right there.

866
00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 1: So it's a lot I do have one last question, though,

867
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 1: what is Lolita fashion? And can you please tell me?

868
00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:56,600
Speaker 1: Like obviously they said please, you know, take us out

869
00:53:56,600 --> 00:54:00,640
Speaker 1: of this narrative, but what is this funny? It's really

870
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:05,520
Speaker 1: I I've been very fortunate so far that we I

871
00:54:05,560 --> 00:54:08,759
Speaker 1: set up a discord to uh for listeners to talk

872
00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:11,480
Speaker 1: to each other, um and kind of like a safe

873
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:15,200
Speaker 1: space um and and trying to create a space for

874
00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:18,440
Speaker 1: a discussion about this. But happened for people who have

875
00:54:18,560 --> 00:54:20,840
Speaker 1: read it over the years and are frustrated with the

876
00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:26,840
Speaker 1: literary bro uh you know, kuber interpret forced interpretation. Um,

877
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:29,680
Speaker 1: And so I wasn't totally sure gogoing get to it,

878
00:54:29,760 --> 00:54:34,279
Speaker 1: I assumed that the two were related. Um. Apparently my understanding,

879
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:36,799
Speaker 1: and I'm still working on my episode that addresses this.

880
00:54:37,239 --> 00:54:44,160
Speaker 1: But uh, Lolita fashion is a fashion that it's I

881
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:48,200
Speaker 1: guess the reason it's the same term is a translation thing.

882
00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:53,560
Speaker 1: It's an unfortunate translation coincidence because the actual fashion style

883
00:54:53,719 --> 00:54:59,320
Speaker 1: is you know, kind of like a young like Rococo.

884
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:03,640
Speaker 1: I don't know if I've ever said that word out loud, Rode,

885
00:55:03,719 --> 00:55:07,359
Speaker 1: I know what I'm talking about, but like that that's

886
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:11,400
Speaker 1: kind of the aesthetic. Um. And so it's not you know,

887
00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:14,360
Speaker 1: it's not absurd to me that people have seen Lolita

888
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:16,759
Speaker 1: fashion and then seeing what the fashion is and think

889
00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:20,799
Speaker 1: that the two are related. They're not. Um. But it's

890
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:23,960
Speaker 1: been interesting because people from the Lolita fashion community have

891
00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:27,000
Speaker 1: come into our discord and been like, hey, I just

892
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:29,520
Speaker 1: came here to say it's not related, and then I

893
00:55:29,560 --> 00:55:32,440
Speaker 1: have ended up having a really cool discussion about the book,

894
00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:36,400
Speaker 1: and uh so it Yeah, it's it's not related. It

895
00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:41,200
Speaker 1: is just a term coincidence. But there are also um

896
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:46,240
Speaker 1: fashion subcultures that are related to Lolita. And there's I'm

897
00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:49,520
Speaker 1: still in process of like working on my episode about

898
00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:54,439
Speaker 1: um internet sub communities that have formed around this book.

899
00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:57,120
Speaker 1: But there there is like a whole kind of thriving

900
00:55:57,200 --> 00:56:01,280
Speaker 1: corner of niche fashion that is almost you know all

901
00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:07,120
Speaker 1: um you know, all women, queer people, non binary people, etcetera.

902
00:56:07,640 --> 00:56:12,160
Speaker 1: Who uh, it's called non sexual nymphat fashion, and and

903
00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:17,319
Speaker 1: it's a thing and they're having it's it's we don't

904
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:19,120
Speaker 1: have time to get into it, but it's it's been

905
00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:23,680
Speaker 1: a very kind of a fascinating um journey of finding

906
00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:29,800
Speaker 1: ways that people have kind of reclaimed this text and

907
00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:33,480
Speaker 1: and that marginalized communities have reclaimed this text in a

908
00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:37,399
Speaker 1: way that um, I just wouldn't have expected or thought

909
00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:39,799
Speaker 1: of myself. So this pine have to be a part

910
00:56:39,840 --> 00:56:45,279
Speaker 1: to Jamie, who's the whole thing. And we didn't even

911
00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:51,600
Speaker 1: talk about the Broadway musical, so you know, to be concluded.

912
00:56:53,640 --> 00:56:56,440
Speaker 1: But in the meantime, you've got a whole podcast listeners

913
00:56:56,440 --> 00:57:00,160
Speaker 1: can listen to you about Thank you so much us

914
00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:03,440
Speaker 1: for being here. Where can the listeners find you? You

915
00:57:03,440 --> 00:57:06,400
Speaker 1: can find me on Twitter, Instagram. I'm on Twitter at

916
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:11,360
Speaker 1: Jamie loftus help and on Instagram at Jamie christ Superstar uh.

917
00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:14,400
Speaker 1: And then you can listen to Lolita podcast and the

918
00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:18,720
Speaker 1: Bechtel Cast on iHeart Radio. There you go. Clearly there's

919
00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:23,560
Speaker 1: a lot to unpack. Go check out. If you'd like

920
00:57:23,600 --> 00:57:26,080
Speaker 1: to contact us, you can or email Stuff Media mom

921
00:57:26,160 --> 00:57:27,840
Speaker 1: Stuff at i heart media dot com. You can find

922
00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:30,240
Speaker 1: it at Twitter at mom Stuff podcast, or on Instagram

923
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:32,040
Speaker 1: and Stuff when We ever told you. Thanks as always

924
00:57:32,040 --> 00:57:35,480
Speaker 1: to our super producer Andrew Howard. Thanks and thanks you

925
00:57:35,520 --> 00:57:37,560
Speaker 1: for listening Stuff I've Never told you. The protection of

926
00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:39,800
Speaker 1: iHeart Radio. For more podcast from my Heart Radio is

927
00:57:39,840 --> 00:57:42,040
Speaker 1: the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen

928
00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:42,880
Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.