1 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly 2 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small 3 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:22,480 Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions 4 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:26,600 Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor joy hard and Bradford, 5 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or 6 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website 7 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you 8 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:43,479 Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is 9 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with 10 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:57,279 Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much 11 00:00:57,320 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 1: for joining me for session four fifty five of the 12 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our 13 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 1: conversation after word from our sponsors. Lately, it feels like 14 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 1: a lot of people are being asked to do more 15 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 1: and more at work. Teams are stretched thin, responsibilities keep expanding, 16 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:25,039 Speaker 1: and many of us are finding ourselves carrying workloads that 17 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 1: don't always match the support, resources, or recognition we deserve. 18 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 1: For black women in particular, these dynamics can show up 19 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:35,960 Speaker 1: in some very specific ways. One of them is the 20 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 1: glass cliff. Think of it as when women and especially 21 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:42,039 Speaker 1: women of color, are elevated to leadership roles during moments 22 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 1: of crisis or instability, often when the stakes are the 23 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 1: highest and the margin for error is very small. Because 24 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 1: this conversation continues to feel relevant, maybe even more relevant 25 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 1: than when we first aired it, we're throwing it back 26 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: to an earlier episode that explores what it means to 27 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 1: navigate these dynamics while protecting your well being and leadership capacity. 28 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: In this conversation, I'm joined by leadership advisor and keynote speaker, 29 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:11,679 Speaker 1: doctor Yazmin Mumby. Doctor Mumby is the founder of the Ringgold, 30 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 1: a firm that has helped some of the most impactful 31 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 1: organizations in the world achieve their mission critical organizational ambitions. 32 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 1: Her work focuses on helping leaders build sustainable organizations and 33 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:27,080 Speaker 1: create environments where people can thrive without burning out. Together, 34 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 1: we talk about what the glass cliff is, why black 35 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 1: women shall often find themselves navigating it, and what it 36 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:35,639 Speaker 1: looks like to advocate for yourself while leading in high 37 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 1: pressure environments. We also discuss workplace realities many of us recognize, 38 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 1: from navigating microaggressions and documenting your work to setting boundaries 39 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:49,640 Speaker 1: around your capacity and communicating strategically with colleagues. If something 40 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:52,920 Speaker 1: resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with 41 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:56,080 Speaker 1: us on social media using the hashtag TVG in session, 42 00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:59,360 Speaker 1: or come talk it through with us on Patreon. Our 43 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 1: community is so place where black women gather to unpack 44 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 1: episodes like this one, share workplace experiences, and support one 45 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 1: another in navigating it all. You can join us at 46 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 1: community dot therapyfro blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation. Thank 47 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:20,400 Speaker 1: you so much for joining us today, doctor Mumby. 48 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to join this 49 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 2: conversation and to be in connection with you. 50 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely so. You are a sustainable leadership advisor? Can 51 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: you tell us what that means and what your typical 52 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 1: work day looks like. 53 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 2: Basically, I support ambitious, high achieving, highly productive leaders, most 54 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 2: of them identify as women Black women, from burning out. 55 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 2: I support them with creating the infrastructures, the policy, the guidelines, 56 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 2: even down to the implementation plan before you hire the person, 57 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 2: so that you don't have to work beyond your capacity 58 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 2: so you're not burning out. Started doing this and work life. 59 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 2: A lot of my professional career has been around balancing 60 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 2: a portfolio of different projects across multiple sectors, and that 61 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 2: led itself to me also focusing on my personal life 62 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 2: and how I can also work to have equilibrium or 63 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 2: at least interweaving parts of my life so that I'm 64 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 2: not over indexing in one side and feeling burnt out 65 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 2: in the other. And that's becoming even more important now 66 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:19,839 Speaker 2: that I have a little baby who's now ten months. 67 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:22,360 Speaker 1: Oh wow, I can imagine nothing like a little one 68 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:25,279 Speaker 1: that kick you into we having to reimagine some things. 69 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:28,919 Speaker 2: I'm in another gear. I'm in another gear. 70 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 1: So much of your work is really focused on creating 71 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 1: easeful leaders. Can you tell me what does that mean? 72 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 1: To be an easeful leader. 73 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 2: It's a leader who is operating from the core of 74 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 2: their values and not somebody else's. It's a leader who 75 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 2: takes into consideration for every meaningful, impactful, transformative decision, how 76 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 2: is this going to impact my team, their wellbeing, their 77 00:04:56,240 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 2: productivity and the culture that we have on STAF. A 78 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 2: lot of folks and a lot of organizations get caught 79 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:07,159 Speaker 2: up in production production, production, and that's because sometimes we 80 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 2: have external validators who are putting a lot of pressure 81 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:14,719 Speaker 2: on us to perform, to be visible. And it's our 82 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 2: role as senior leaders or leaders managing the middle to 83 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:25,839 Speaker 2: support the adaptive part of our leadership roles, not just 84 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:29,040 Speaker 2: the technical to say, hey, I understand what my team 85 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:31,720 Speaker 2: is going through. This is going on in the context 86 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:35,159 Speaker 2: of the world. If you aren't considering that and you're 87 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 2: pushed for us to be more whatever, productive, more visible, 88 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 2: more everything with less resources happens a lot at the time. 89 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 2: If we continue down this path at this pace, this 90 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:49,600 Speaker 2: is what the impact will be, not just on our 91 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 2: team morale and our team structure, but also for the 92 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:53,720 Speaker 2: quality of our work. 93 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 1: So it sounds like you have worked across a variety 94 00:05:56,800 --> 00:05:59,239 Speaker 1: of sectors. It sounds like with lots of different leaders. 95 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about some of the 96 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 1: common challenges that have come up in your work with leaders? 97 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:07,920 Speaker 2: Absolutely, I was just leading full day staff re treat 98 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 2: on the West Coast with a leading advocacy organization nationally, 99 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:15,359 Speaker 2: and what I'm noticing in working with them, we're all 100 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 2: dealing with this capacity issue, like do we have capacity 101 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:23,600 Speaker 2: to take on all these transformative goals and this expansive 102 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:26,720 Speaker 2: vision that we have for our work right now? And 103 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 2: does it have to be right now? Because right now 104 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:33,679 Speaker 2: we're considering a reality that might stretch us even thinner 105 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 2: than many of us on the team already feel. So 106 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 2: that is the collective theme that I'm noticing across my 107 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:42,040 Speaker 2: portfolio work currently, and that's going to be the subject 108 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:45,040 Speaker 2: of my next monthly newsletter around capacity. 109 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 1: So is it that people are kind of seeing so 110 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 1: much need that they are trying to like take on 111 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 1: additional task and like have the organization perform. Is that 112 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:55,920 Speaker 1: a part of it sometimes? 113 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:59,600 Speaker 2: And sometimes it's deep within the psyche of the organization 114 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 2: where they like they have to perform at this pace 115 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 2: to visibly look like they're being productive. And that's a 116 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 2: difficult conversation to first have at the leadership level, noticing 117 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 2: what has been their contribution to this reality and noticing 118 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 2: the impact it's had on the rest of the direct reports, 119 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 2: and then having the conversation with the board and or 120 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 2: funder that might be pressing really hard on the gas 121 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 2: And I understand that, you know, the macro also sometimes 122 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 2: reflects the micro. So what's going on individually with each 123 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 2: leader where they feel like they have to contribute to 124 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:41,679 Speaker 2: this pace And that's where my individual coaching really kicks 125 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 2: in and where we see some changes because leadership is 126 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 2: an extension of who you are and yourself in the 127 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 2: way it's landing on others. And if we don't really 128 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 2: on Earth what's going on there through your leadership actions, 129 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 2: you just going to be having a lot of people 130 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 2: being impacted by you not doing the work and influencing 131 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 2: your own pctices of self, compassion and support. 132 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 1: So I'm wondering, doctamombi, how do companies understand whether they're 133 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 1: following their values or whether they're trying to like hitch 134 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 1: to some arbitrary kind of sense of value. 135 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 2: Oh, that shows up in the numbers people are dropping, 136 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 2: they're leaving. It shows up in their retention, It shows 137 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 2: up in their staff. Lack of engagement shows up in 138 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 2: not just exit interviews, but sometimes anonymous reviews. So glassdoor, 139 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 2: it shows up when something has happened in the organization 140 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 2: and it's highly visible and delicate, and folks need someone 141 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 2: to come in and support them. And that's how I 142 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 2: typically get connected to people because it's through word of mouth. 143 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 2: They're like, yes, me and her team can come in 144 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 2: here and help us objectively figure out the best path 145 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 2: forward and also to support people through this transition and 146 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 2: change management. I got to say a lot of that 147 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:57,680 Speaker 2: effort and work comes from my comfort being in the 148 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:02,320 Speaker 2: middle of what can be ambiguous and highly anxiety provoking 149 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 2: for many leaders in the midst of organizational change and shifts. 150 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 2: And that grounding really comes from my practice for myself 151 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:17,599 Speaker 2: of meditation and reflection and journaling and writing, and and 152 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 2: it also helps that I was a teacher and a 153 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 2: community organizer, and I'm the oldest of four, so I'm 154 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:23,439 Speaker 2: used to finding solutions. 155 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 1: He got a lot of experience in a lot of 156 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:27,679 Speaker 1: different ways to do this work. It sounds. 157 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 2: We all do. We all do. 158 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: So you mentioned that a majority of the clients that 159 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 1: you work with are often black women, and we know 160 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 1: that black women are often expected to have these really 161 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:43,079 Speaker 1: high expectations, but also the pay and the promotion rates 162 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:45,839 Speaker 1: don't necessarily kind of match up with that. So can 163 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:47,320 Speaker 1: you tell me a little bit about what kinds of 164 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 1: questions black women should be asking themselves and their supervisors 165 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:54,199 Speaker 1: if they feel like their level of work isn't necessarily 166 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 1: matching either their pay grade or their. 167 00:09:55,960 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 2: Title, and not necessarily matching the team infrastructure to support 168 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 2: them to be successful. Yes, we can talk about that, 169 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 2: we can talk about them. So some of the questions, 170 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 2: it depends on where you are in the process. So 171 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 2: if you are considering a role, whether you're an internal 172 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 2: candidate or external, these questions could be helpful. Whether you're 173 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 2: in the thick of the role and you're seeing that 174 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 2: your work is outpacing what was initially written down about 175 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:26,079 Speaker 2: what the role would be, these questions can be helpful. 176 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 2: And if you are considering whether or not you want 177 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:32,079 Speaker 2: to stay in the role given that your work has 178 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 2: outgrown what initially was supposed to be within the scope 179 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 2: of work, these questions could be helpful. One I would 180 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 2: have the conversation with the decision maker, because having the 181 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:47,079 Speaker 2: conversation with folks who don't have decision making power can 182 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 2: distract from the purpose of why you need to have 183 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 2: such a conversation and move towards solutions. So I first 184 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 2: narrow in is this the decision maker? And if this 185 00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:59,080 Speaker 2: person isn't, then I need to find out who is 186 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:01,440 Speaker 2: so I don't waste my time. One of the questions 187 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:05,080 Speaker 2: I have folks consider is what's the scope of work 188 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:08,080 Speaker 2: initially laid out for this role or what has been 189 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 2: the scope of work? What are you doing now within 190 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 2: the scope of work, how have you exceeded the limits 191 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:17,559 Speaker 2: of what the scope of work was supposed to protect? 192 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 2: And then what is the difference between the two, And 193 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 2: how has that impacted not just your workload, but the 194 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 2: time you have spent on the work, perhaps the quality. 195 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 2: Most often you've been able to keep up high quality 196 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 2: work even being limited and stretched, And how has it 197 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 2: impacted the work assigned to other colleagues, Because if you're 198 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:42,320 Speaker 2: taking on additional work and you're noticing other colleagues don't 199 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 2: have such a pace of work expected of them, nor quality, 200 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 2: then chances are you might be taking on some of 201 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 2: their work that they should have been doing or could 202 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 2: be doing, and just aren't aware that now it's grown 203 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 2: within their scope of work instead of yours. So those 204 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 2: are their first foundational because we've got to get really 205 00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 2: clear with the evidence. What do we see? I want 206 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 2: to know what's going on socially collegially amongst your colleagues. 207 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 2: How are you being treated? Are people asking you, pinging you? 208 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 2: Some people use Slack, some people use Microsoft Teams? Are 209 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:14,440 Speaker 2: they pinging you big eleven times? 210 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:14,680 Speaker 1: Hey? 211 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 2: Have you done this? 212 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:15,960 Speaker 1: Hey? 213 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 2: How's this going? 214 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:16,959 Speaker 1: Hey? 215 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:19,559 Speaker 2: Can you give me an update on this. Chances are 216 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 2: folks have already internalized that you are at this leadership 217 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 2: role taking on more of this work, and are treating 218 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 2: you such and have the expectations of you. But yet 219 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:34,840 Speaker 2: that hasn't translated into your pay, hasn't translated formally into 220 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:37,839 Speaker 2: your scope over for your job description, and it hasn't 221 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:41,320 Speaker 2: translated formally into the resources money you need to bring 222 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 2: on the team or to support the team that you're 223 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 2: supposed to have or do have to do more. And 224 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 2: so that's the beginning, just the beginning. That's the analysis. 225 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:53,559 Speaker 2: Second part the process, we go through, Okay, what's the strategy, 226 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 2: Who do we talk to, what's the messaging for each person? 227 00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 2: What do they care about most? I would get them 228 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 2: to understand what you're going to going through. How do 229 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 2: we build empathy around that conversation? And then thirdly we 230 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 2: go into actually role playing and mapping it out. What 231 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 2: are we doing? And then fourth we go back to evaluation. 232 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 2: What has happened? What are the results? That's kind of valuation. 233 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 2: So this all occurs within an engagement of coaching around 234 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:21,960 Speaker 2: your leadership development, because so often we're out here on 235 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 2: our own trying to figure it out and also implementing 236 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 2: in a way that can feel isolating, even though other 237 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:32,679 Speaker 2: folks have gone through what you were going through are 238 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 2: going through it alongside you, and that sense of community 239 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 2: helps embolden you to stand up for yourself. 240 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 1: So would somebody kind of reach out for your support 241 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:44,680 Speaker 1: if they are considering asking for a promotion? Like it 242 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:47,079 Speaker 1: sounds like you work with people who are mid level 243 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 1: or even senior level leadership. But even if somebody's enjoying 244 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 1: our conversation and they, you know, are in an organization 245 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:54,719 Speaker 1: and thinking like, Okay, I feel like I'm ready to 246 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 1: move to that next level, they could reach out to 247 00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 1: you for some support around how to make that ask. 248 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, A lot of the folks that I work 249 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 2: with now, I've been with them since their promotion because 250 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:10,320 Speaker 2: they have grown in their awareness of what they have 251 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 2: capacity to do and what they're capable of doing outside 252 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 2: of what people expected them to do, and they have 253 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 2: wonder curiosity and interest in exploring other realms of their 254 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 2: work and that could connect to a different pay grade, 255 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 2: a different role, a different organization. And so through inquiry 256 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 2: based approach that I have with folks, I never present 257 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 2: answers for people I ask a lot of questions, and 258 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 2: I listen and I understand more about what people care about, 259 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 2: and I ask questions around their values and the alignment 260 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 2: of what they're doing the day to day. People come 261 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 2: to their own clarity, and once they come to that clarity, 262 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 2: that might lead to a promotion, and then once they're 263 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 2: in the new role, it's like, Okay, how do I 264 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 2: built this within my team? 265 00:14:53,280 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break. So there's been 266 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 1: lots of conversation, it feels like, particularly online, around black 267 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: women's refusal to deal with microaggressions and that being read 268 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: as antisocial. So can you say a little bit about, 269 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 1: like what suggestions you have for people who might be 270 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 1: enjoying the conversation around like how to kind of do 271 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 1: this dance that is sometimes required in coworking spaces if 272 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 1: you are not particularly fans of your coworkers. 273 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 2: We are human beings. We are not here for entertainment. 274 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 2: As a team member, as a colleague. A lot of 275 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 2: times we can be seen as the person who has 276 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 2: to show up and be everything for everybody, and that 277 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 2: often takes out our ability to be human, our humanity, 278 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 2: and in looking at us devoid of such humanity. It's 279 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 2: why aren't you performing or entertaining or being in the 280 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 2: way that I expect of you absence of me considering 281 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 2: your personhood's culture within your organization. And then if people 282 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:07,320 Speaker 2: are acting in that way and forwarding on that dehumanization, 283 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 2: if you will, then you gotta wonder, Okay, is this 284 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 2: the place for me? And if you are going to 285 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 2: stay and it doesn't overload you emotionally and you're in 286 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 2: a financial position where you can stay, I would take 287 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:23,320 Speaker 2: it down to the most fundamental level of communication, and 288 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 2: that is strictly technical, Like I would not go into 289 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 2: any emotional connected conversation because sometimes people won't appreciate that 290 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 2: from you, and so we can get over extended emotionally 291 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 2: for trying really really hard to in some instances appease 292 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 2: folks appeal to their sense of empathy and they might 293 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 2: not have it for us. So the more we do that, 294 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 2: the less it will be reciprocated, and then that can 295 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 2: also lead to further further burnout. So if you must 296 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 2: stay that, I would keep the conversation to a technical, 297 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:09,120 Speaker 2: foundational level that is central to your subject matter expertise 298 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:10,360 Speaker 2: in your role. 299 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:13,200 Speaker 1: So you mentioned earlier diactive would be that some people 300 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 1: do the calculation and sometimes it's just not possible for 301 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 1: you to leave a work, please, even if you feel 302 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:20,439 Speaker 1: like your spirit is not being felled, and you know 303 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:22,920 Speaker 1: you feel like in Tostil maybe even in some ways. 304 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:25,399 Speaker 1: So if someone is forced to kind of stay in 305 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:28,400 Speaker 1: a situation because bills have to be paid, what kinds 306 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 1: of things would you suggest for them to continue to 307 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:32,880 Speaker 1: take care of themselves even in that kind of environment. 308 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 2: First, that's join analysis of where are the spaces in 309 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:41,120 Speaker 2: the organization where you feel you could be somewhat who 310 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:44,960 Speaker 2: you are without being penalized for who you are, And 311 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 2: where are the spaces where you just know there is 312 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 2: little to no psychological safety. It would be a detriment 313 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 2: for you to show up as you are because people 314 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 2: would take advantage of it. So we need to understand 315 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 2: the terrain that we're working with and in those spaces, 316 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 2: who are the people and the same analysis and then 317 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 2: take that and understand who you can and frankly cannot 318 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:13,440 Speaker 2: be in a room with alone and document document, document, 319 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 2: So that's what you could do. Technically, you keep your 320 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:20,399 Speaker 2: scope of work very closely aligned to what you have 321 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:25,400 Speaker 2: been assigned to do, and you readily seek the decision 322 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:31,399 Speaker 2: maker within your team to pinpoint where in your scope 323 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 2: of work you are operating outside of it, either because 324 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 2: the work has been assigned to you or you have 325 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 2: literally outgrown the role and you've taken on more and 326 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 2: you can do it so that you all can have 327 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 2: a conversation whether or not that needs to be reconciled. 328 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 2: And when I say whether or not needs to be reconciled, 329 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 2: you can keep doing that extra work, but then we 330 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:50,399 Speaker 2: got to make some adjustments on the pay and the promotion. 331 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 2: Or you can choose, hey, that's not the work we 332 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:56,119 Speaker 2: need to be doing, and they might say that's off 333 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 2: the work they need you to be doing anymore, then 334 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 2: they take some things off of your plate. Because if 335 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 2: you're feeling squeezed within the amount of work you're doing 336 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:08,879 Speaker 2: and the colleagues you're working with and really honestly have 337 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 2: looked at your reality and you cannot make a transition 338 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:15,879 Speaker 2: at this moment, then we need to decrease the amount 339 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:21,120 Speaker 2: of stress and the input from many people into your 340 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:24,640 Speaker 2: work so that you can literally make it day to day. 341 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 2: It can be emotionally taxing, it can be very exhausting 342 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 2: and it can be done with those particular instances. I 343 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 2: move very strategically and tactfully because I know it is 344 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 2: a delicate situation for that leader. 345 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 1: So I wonder doctor Mammae, if you can set us 346 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 1: straight on the purpose of HR in workplaces, because I 347 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 1: feel like we've been hearing a lot about, you know, 348 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:55,919 Speaker 1: reminding people HR is there to protect the company, is 349 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 1: not necessarily there to protect you as an employee. So 350 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 1: can you say a little bit about if HR is 351 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 1: a resource for us to go to and if not, 352 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:06,440 Speaker 1: what are the spaces that we can kind of lean 353 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 1: on as resources if we're having difficulties in a workplace. 354 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:14,120 Speaker 2: On paper, yeah, HR supposed to be supportive. Like you said, 355 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:16,119 Speaker 2: we have been hearing and folks have been coming out 356 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:18,880 Speaker 2: around like their interest isn't in us. It's in the 357 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:23,719 Speaker 2: protection of the organization to keep going. Yeah, yeah, So 358 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:25,439 Speaker 2: what else can you do? So a lot of the 359 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:28,880 Speaker 2: folks that I work with, it's through leadership coaches, It's 360 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,880 Speaker 2: through the colleagues who they have found to be trustworthy. 361 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 2: It gives you a built in team to protect yourself 362 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,639 Speaker 2: when you have to be sometimes in a defensive mode 363 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,360 Speaker 2: in an organization that you feel just isn't there for you. 364 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:44,919 Speaker 2: And like I said, everything is temporary. So in a 365 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:49,920 Speaker 2: situation where HR isn't necessarily expressing as if they're there 366 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:54,199 Speaker 2: for you, then long term that can't stay as the 367 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:58,639 Speaker 2: reality for you. It can't. And there are other spaces. 368 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:00,959 Speaker 2: We just have to find the bridge to them. And 369 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,240 Speaker 2: in the meantime, there are ways to better support yourself 370 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:09,159 Speaker 2: along the way. In addition to you know, attorneys, I 371 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 2: think is that far? I know some people has gotten 372 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 2: that far. 373 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:13,879 Speaker 1: So some of the other terms that often come up 374 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 1: when we're talking about black women in the workspaces is 375 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,399 Speaker 1: confirmation bias and the glass cliff And I know you 376 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 1: talk a lot about this in your work. Can you 377 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:22,920 Speaker 1: define those terms for us? 378 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 2: Confirmation bias, there's a bias towards AH. As a leader, 379 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:31,639 Speaker 2: I'm looking for this kind of information to quantify or 380 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 2: analyze whether or not this decision is the best for 381 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:37,639 Speaker 2: our team and for the role and for the work. 382 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:39,919 Speaker 2: And so instead of looking at the full span of 383 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,399 Speaker 2: all the evidence and the train of the reality of 384 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:46,919 Speaker 2: what's going on across the sector, across the role, this 385 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 2: leader looks for particular instances of evidence that match up 386 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:53,439 Speaker 2: with where they want to go anyway, and their decision 387 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:59,719 Speaker 2: making confirmation bias, biasing their confirmation glass cliff. Oh, we 388 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:03,680 Speaker 2: need to do a longer conversation on this, but I'll 389 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:09,359 Speaker 2: just start here. A lot of times organizations find themselves realizing, oh, 390 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 2: our leadership does not reflect the values that we say 391 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 2: that we have, our leadership does not reflect the population 392 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 2: of folks we're working with, or our work is directly 393 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:24,639 Speaker 2: impacted by and we need to change that. And so 394 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 2: sometimes in those instances when that realization occurs, it's also 395 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 2: sometimes occurring at the same time as an internal crisis 396 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:37,920 Speaker 2: or a highly delicate issue has occurred that is central 397 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 2: to the survival of the organization. And sometimes organizations go, ah, 398 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:46,439 Speaker 2: let's put the two together and let's have in some 399 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,639 Speaker 2: cases the black woman be the leader and leaders through 400 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 2: this difficult, turbulent time, and to make. 401 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 3: Sure she has what she needs to do it, let's 402 00:22:55,840 --> 00:23:01,719 Speaker 3: promote her and voila it out together. And so it's 403 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 3: kind of like you're on a glass cliff. You've ascended 404 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 3: in leadership, but. 405 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 2: Yet you're literally on the cliff of success and or failure. 406 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:15,399 Speaker 2: And while you're up there, it's glass because everybody's watching you, 407 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 2: and so this reality of Wow, I've worked so hard 408 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 2: to reach this point in my career to have this 409 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 2: level of trust across the organization, and now I'm questioning 410 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:28,920 Speaker 2: whether or not I'm set up for success and whether 411 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:33,639 Speaker 2: or not people are watching, waiting, witnessing, ready for me 412 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:38,240 Speaker 2: to either be successful or fail. Walking on a class cliff. 413 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 1: So is this typically a conscious decision by leadership? Is 414 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 1: it typically like, oh, let's find like a black woman 415 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 1: to take the fall for this, or is it that 416 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:51,399 Speaker 1: it ends up being that way because black women are 417 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 1: kind of thought to be the ones who can save 418 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 1: everything for everybody. 419 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I wouldn't be telling the truth if I didn't 420 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:01,879 Speaker 2: tell you that. I know in certain commonversations, in certain 421 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 2: moments of crisis, some leaders realize, if we don't have 422 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 2: a person to be upfront leading this kind of initiative, 423 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:15,600 Speaker 2: it could lead to further damage to our reputation. And 424 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 2: sometimes people will then look towards a group of people 425 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,720 Speaker 2: and see if there is someone within who is willing 426 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:27,920 Speaker 2: and interested in leading. And that does not necessarily mean 427 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:32,359 Speaker 2: that person isn't qualified for it. They've probably been qualified 428 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:36,440 Speaker 2: and you just gave them a shot because you're struggling. 429 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break. So let's talk 430 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 1: about if we find ourselves at the pinnacle of making 431 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 1: this decision, right, because I think for a lot of people, 432 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 1: this is the life changing opportunity, right like this title, 433 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 1: there's probably lots of money, not probably a lot of resources, 434 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: which you've already talked about, right, So you're being set 435 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 1: up for failure. But it is I think probably like 436 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 1: a once in a lifetime kind of shot. And so 437 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 1: what kinds of things should somebody even ask themselves, like 438 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 1: if they recognize m this is probably not gonna end 439 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:17,640 Speaker 1: up well for me, But do I not take the shot? 440 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,359 Speaker 1: What kinds of conversation should we be having with ourselves? 441 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,680 Speaker 2: Wait, it actually might end up going well for you. 442 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:27,439 Speaker 2: It might. It just means you also might not be 443 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 2: set up initially to be successful. And that's where the 444 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:33,680 Speaker 2: conversations around what you need to be successful need to 445 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:37,120 Speaker 2: be had. And do not feel bad about it, because 446 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:38,640 Speaker 2: at the end of the day, it is your name, 447 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 2: not theirs on this work. So whatever you need, it's 448 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 2: a conversation just like they need you. You come on, 449 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 2: you need some things. 450 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 1: Too, So what kinds of things might you need? To 451 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 1: be successful in this kind of a situation. 452 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:57,119 Speaker 2: Who's the staff that's supporting me on this? That's huge? 453 00:25:58,200 --> 00:25:59,880 Speaker 2: Who is the staff? And do we need to hire 454 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 2: or externally? They don't necessarily have to be FTEs. They 455 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 2: could be consultants, they could be contract colleagues coming in. 456 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 2: What's the budget and is the budget set? Because as 457 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,040 Speaker 2: I get in here and I find out what we 458 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:16,879 Speaker 2: need more of, we need to have more conversations about 459 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:19,639 Speaker 2: upping the budget. That's got to be on the table. 460 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 2: That fluidity and that trust for them to have in 461 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 2: you in honoring your expertise when you say we need 462 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,359 Speaker 2: more funds to do this, this and this, and of 463 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:35,399 Speaker 2: course you're gonna be meticulous and deliberate and intentional about 464 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 2: what you share and the price points for each initiative 465 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:40,639 Speaker 2: and what it would take in the team. But that 466 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 2: needs to be there money and the staff, the team, 467 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 2: and then thirdly, the trust to listen to what you 468 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 2: have said and to not actively or indirectly rather not 469 00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 2: try to dismiss it, not try to undermine it. You 470 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,359 Speaker 2: had me in this role for a reason. Trust what 471 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 2: I got to say, Listen to what I have to say. 472 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:08,679 Speaker 2: You know, if those three things are there from the jump, 473 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 2: then go for it. If they aren't, but you still 474 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 2: want to do it because one, like you said, it 475 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:18,000 Speaker 2: could be a life changing opportunity decision, and two it 476 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:20,359 Speaker 2: can open up other avenues for you to be in 477 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:26,200 Speaker 2: collaboration with other organizations, other sectors. So for the visibility, cool, 478 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 2: but make sure you, like I said, are documenting documenting documenting, 479 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:32,959 Speaker 2: because no matter what happens on the other end, you 480 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 2: will have the story and the narrative and the truth 481 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 2: of what it took to get to that point, what 482 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 2: happened in the middle of it, and how you were 483 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:43,960 Speaker 2: a leader through it. Because whatever the organization does, you're 484 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 2: one person. That's what the organization does. But you, as 485 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:50,200 Speaker 2: a leader were essential in these parts of the work 486 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 2: and you led them to the best of your abilities 487 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 2: and to the extent of your expertise. And so you 488 00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 2: make sure you are very clear on that narrative that 489 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 2: you will have to share no matter what at the end, 490 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 2: whether the initiative went the way you needed it to 491 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 2: go and wanted to go and the way you let it, 492 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:09,920 Speaker 2: or folks just didn't honor all the expertise you had, 493 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:12,160 Speaker 2: all the work you did and chose to do something differently. 494 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 2: That's on them. But you know what you. 495 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 1: Did, you know, doctor Mumby. I'm curious if there are 496 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 1: any pretty public examples of black women who could have 497 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,240 Speaker 1: been walking off the glass cliff but then it actually 498 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 1: turned around to be a success for them. Are you 499 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 1: aware of any stories of people we could look to 500 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 1: for examples of this? 501 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 2: Yes, I do. To be a black woman in the 502 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 2: workspace is to be a highly watched, surveilled, scrutinized and 503 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 2: that in itself is like living walking, working at the 504 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 2: edge of a glass cliff. So there are examples all 505 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 2: around us. And what I will share is that, in particular, 506 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,480 Speaker 2: I've been watching her leadership for a while and I 507 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 2: thought of her as you mentioned this question. So I 508 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 2: looked to Shila Johnson. So she was the co founder 509 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:06,320 Speaker 2: of BT opened up Salamander, had just released some memoir 510 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 2: about her life, her leadership in the midst of so 511 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 2: much that many of us can relate to. And she's 512 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 2: definitely at least one person who has not just walked 513 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:22,720 Speaker 2: on a glass cliff, but just shattered so many ceilings 514 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 2: and so many barriers and has lived to tell I 515 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 2: would lift her up right now. 516 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 1: Her memoir is definitely on my to be read list 517 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:32,720 Speaker 1: because lots of people have had great things to say 518 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 1: about it. So I appreciate you sharing that example. So 519 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 1: we talked a little bit about microaggressions a little earlier, 520 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 1: but I want us to back up a little bit 521 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 1: because I think sometimes people don't even recognize that something 522 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 1: that may be happening in the workspace is a microaggression. 523 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 1: What suggestions would you have for people who were wondering like, oh, 524 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 1: is that behavior from the coworker? Like is this something 525 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 1: I should be concerned about? What kinds of suggestions would 526 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 1: you have there? 527 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, sometimes you're thinking, wait, what's that? Or wasn't that? 528 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,240 Speaker 2: Look for a pattern of behavior. Look for the pattern, 529 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 2: Look for who else they are speaking to and how 530 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 2: they're speaking to them, and look for the pattern of 531 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,400 Speaker 2: behavior there. If it's not there, but it's shown up 532 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 2: with you, you might have something here, and you keep 533 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:18,720 Speaker 2: documenting and documenting and documenting. I have folks who I 534 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:22,680 Speaker 2: work with look to this really good framework that orders 535 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 2: thoughts that you have and in conversations that can feel 536 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 2: emotionally charged, and it's out of the management center Situation 537 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:37,480 Speaker 2: Behavior Impact SBI. So you ground the conversation in the 538 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 2: situation when this occurred. Behavior, This is what I noticed 539 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 2: you did. 540 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 1: Impact. 541 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 2: This is the impact it has had on me on 542 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 2: my work on my team. Situation behavior impact. That is 543 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 2: the foundation. They'll get you going. So notice the pattern 544 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 2: and then when you have the pattern, document have the 545 00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 2: documentation in the pattern, have the conversation rooted in situation. 546 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 2: Be your impact. That is a good start. 547 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 1: We love a good framework to start the conversation. Thank you. 548 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,959 Speaker 1: That's helpful. So you mentioned early on in our conversation 549 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:11,480 Speaker 1: that you know a large part of your work and 550 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 1: kind of stems from your own personal experience around like 551 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 1: over indexing in work versus being available to your family. 552 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:20,960 Speaker 1: What kinds of suggestions do you have for people for 553 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 1: how to leave work at work so that there is 554 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 1: more of a balance in your life. 555 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 2: Yeah. I like that you said, so there is more 556 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 2: of a balance, not so that there is a balance, 557 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 2: because I mean that's a practice and I don't know. 558 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 2: I'm really into interweaving elements of yourself that bring you 559 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 2: joy and make you feel a sense of being. Yeah, 560 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 2: I look at time, look at how you're spending your time. 561 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,239 Speaker 2: So I have this offering at a mini workshop. It's 562 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 2: called the Time Reclamation Blueprint, and it's basically a workshop 563 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 2: around time and values that I distilled a portion of 564 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:55,440 Speaker 2: it into a document that's on my website. You're free 565 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 2: to get it. Look at your time, where are you 566 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 2: spending it? Be honest with your self, no judgment, it's 567 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 2: just you looking at you. Rea's your time, how you 568 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 2: feeling when you're doing it, and the things that you're 569 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 2: doing during that time, and how you're feeling. You have 570 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 2: to that's the start time reclamation. Reclaim your time. 571 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:17,160 Speaker 1: Okay, doctor Mumby. There is a trend going around on TikTok, 572 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 1: so I want to see if you want to play 573 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 1: a little game with me. I don't know if you 574 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 1: are you on TikTok and all or pay attention to TikTok. 575 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 1: I mean I pay attention, but I'm not gonna officially, 576 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:27,600 Speaker 1: we're not gonna go too far. We're not gonna go 577 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 1: too far. Maybe you have seen this trend where people 578 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:32,240 Speaker 1: are like, how do I say this thing? But in 579 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:33,760 Speaker 1: a way that's not gonna get me fired. 580 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:35,840 Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I want you all right. 581 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 1: So the first one is how do you say that's 582 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:40,800 Speaker 1: not my job? So you talked earlier about like your 583 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 1: scope of work. 584 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 2: I got this. That's that's it. Oh, that sounds really 585 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:47,600 Speaker 2: interesting and exciting. Let me go back to my team 586 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,320 Speaker 2: and figure out if we have the capacity to do 587 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 2: that and if it's within our scope at this point, 588 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:54,720 Speaker 2: because it might not be. And if it isn't, then 589 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 2: I'm very open to collaborating with other colleagues who might 590 00:32:58,080 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 2: have the capacities to do this. 591 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:04,280 Speaker 1: Ooh, I like that one. Okay. The second one is 592 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:06,560 Speaker 1: I said that already are I just said that. 593 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 2: I absolutely understand what you just said, and I agree 594 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:15,160 Speaker 2: I plus one. In our earlier conversations, I connected to 595 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:18,520 Speaker 2: that idea because blah blah blah blah blah. I'm happy 596 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:20,880 Speaker 2: to see that you also are in agreement with it. 597 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 2: Let's do da da da da da da da. 598 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 1: I love it. Okay, here's the last one. I'm swamped 599 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:27,240 Speaker 1: with work. 600 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 2: We might be at capacity at this point in the quarter. 601 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,360 Speaker 2: But let me go back and see if we can 602 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 2: add this to our scope of work for quarter two 603 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:40,840 Speaker 2: or quarter three and see how we can backwards plan 604 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:44,360 Speaker 2: to make sure that what you were suggesting works within 605 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:46,440 Speaker 2: our team's capacity. 606 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 1: Oh. I love that. I also love how like the 607 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,040 Speaker 1: voice is like somewhere softer right, because we're like, oh, 608 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:53,480 Speaker 1: let me try to massage this. 609 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 2: The way I am I'm giving myself away now. The softer, 610 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 2: the softer my voice is, the more furious I am. 611 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:06,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, So, doctor Mummy, tell us where can we stay 612 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:08,920 Speaker 1: connected with you? It sounds like you already have at 613 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:11,440 Speaker 1: least one great resource on your website, So tell us 614 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:13,719 Speaker 1: what else can we find at your website? What is 615 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,440 Speaker 1: the website in any social media challenge you want to 616 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:17,080 Speaker 1: share with us? 617 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:20,160 Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, definitely. So my website is my name. It's 618 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:24,400 Speaker 2: www dot yasmine, mumby dot com, y A S M 619 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,480 Speaker 2: E N E m U m b y dot com. 620 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:32,359 Speaker 2: And I have the Time Reclamation Blueprint. I have meditations. 621 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 2: I write monthly ISH. I say ish because I'm a 622 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:38,840 Speaker 2: human and sometimes it don't come out every thirty days. 623 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 2: A monthly ISH newsletter that has all of the reflections 624 00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,319 Speaker 2: and the tips and the insights that I've gathered over 625 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 2: the month of working with organizations and clients I'm coaching. 626 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:52,239 Speaker 2: So nothing I put out there is in the abstract. 627 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:56,240 Speaker 2: It's all rooted in the practical, what's current and also 628 00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:58,719 Speaker 2: research centered so sign it for my newsletter for my 629 00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:01,680 Speaker 2: website to get that if you're interested. And I'm on 630 00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:04,399 Speaker 2: Instagram because that's just what I can handle right now. 631 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,839 Speaker 2: And it's my name is Yasmine Underscore, y A. S. 632 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,759 Speaker 2: M E N E. Underscore, the tic tac and the 633 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 2: threads and the Facebook. I am on LinkedIn's it's my name, 634 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:18,799 Speaker 2: but listen, it's Instagram on the website because I just 635 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:20,799 Speaker 2: had a ten month old and that's all I can 636 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:22,680 Speaker 2: do right now. Let's see, I'm talking about my capacity. 637 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, there you go. There you go, real life examples 638 00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:27,920 Speaker 1: of that. Well, thank you so much for all that 639 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:30,239 Speaker 1: you shared today. Will be sure to include all of 640 00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:32,120 Speaker 1: that in the show notes so people can stay connected 641 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:32,480 Speaker 1: with you. 642 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:34,840 Speaker 2: I had a great time in this conversation with you. 643 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:35,799 Speaker 2: Thank you for inviting me. 644 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:36,359 Speaker 1: Thank you. 645 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:41,640 Speaker 2: Hi. I'm doctor Mumby and I'm on the therapy for 646 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 2: thank you. Okay, Hi, I'm Yasmin and I'm on the 647 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:53,640 Speaker 2: therapy for black Hi. I'm doctor Yasmine Mumby and I'm 648 00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:58,600 Speaker 2: on the therapy. Hi. I'm doctor Yasmine Mumby, and I'm 649 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:01,440 Speaker 2: on the therapy for Black Girls posts And in this 650 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:06,480 Speaker 2: session today we're Unpacking the Glass Cliff Phenomenon. Hi, I'm 651 00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:08,959 Speaker 2: doctor Yasmin Mumby, and I'm on the Therapy for Black 652 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 2: Girls podcast and we're in session today unpacking the glass 653 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:13,520 Speaker 2: Cliff Phenomenon. 654 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:20,920 Speaker 1: I'm so appreciative of the thoughtful conversation I had with 655 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:23,799 Speaker 1: doctor Mumby, and I hope that you enjoy today's episode. 656 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:26,719 Speaker 1: To learn more about her and her work, visit the 657 00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:29,480 Speaker 1: show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash Session 658 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:32,720 Speaker 1: four fifty five, and don't forget to text this episode 659 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:34,480 Speaker 1: to two of your girls right now and tell them 660 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:36,879 Speaker 1: to check it out. Did you know that you could 661 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:39,400 Speaker 1: leave us a voicemail with your questions or suggestions for 662 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,360 Speaker 1: the podcast. If you have thoughts about topics you'd like 663 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,040 Speaker 1: to hear us discuss, drop us a message at Memo 664 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:47,560 Speaker 1: dot fm slash Therapy for Black Girls and let us 665 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:49,920 Speaker 1: know what's on your mind. We just might feature it 666 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:52,840 Speaker 1: on the podcast. If you're looking for a therapist in 667 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:56,239 Speaker 1: your area, visit our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls 668 00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:59,840 Speaker 1: dot com slash directory. Don't forget to follow us on 669 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,879 Speaker 1: Instagram at Therapy for Black Girls and come on over 670 00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:05,360 Speaker 1: and join us in our Patreon community where black women 671 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,799 Speaker 1: gather to continue conversations like this one, share their own 672 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,760 Speaker 1: workplace experiences, and support one another in navigating it all. 673 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 1: You can join us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls 674 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:20,280 Speaker 1: dot com. This episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Indaichubu 675 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:23,520 Speaker 1: and Tyree Rush. Editing was done by Dennis and Bradford. 676 00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:26,320 Speaker 1: Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week. 677 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,240 Speaker 1: I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all 678 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:31,200 Speaker 1: real soon. Take good care.