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Speaker 1: Coming up on You Need Therapy.

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Speaker 2: I got banged on my bunk one day and said,

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Speaker 2: you can't sleep your time away six and now they

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Speaker 2: called me six nine come around sixty nine. So six

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Speaker 2: was like my nickname in there.

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Speaker 3: And so everybody has a nickname.

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Speaker 2: Everybody has it. Yeah, nobody goes by they their birth name.

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Speaker 1: I started to realize that not being an expert isn't

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Speaker 1: a liability, it's a real gift.

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Speaker 2: If we don't know something about ourselves at this point

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Speaker 2: in our life, it's probably because it's uncomfortable to know.

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Speaker 3: If you can die before you die, then you can

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Speaker 3: really live. There's a wisdom at death's door. I thought

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Speaker 3: I was insane. Yeah, and I didn't know what to

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Speaker 3: do because there was no Internet. I don't know, man,

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Speaker 3: I'm like, I feel like everything is hard.

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Speaker 1: Hey, y'all, my name is Kat. I'm a human first

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Speaker 1: and a licensed therapist second. And right now I'm inviting

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Speaker 1: you into conversations that I hope encourage you to become

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Speaker 1: more curious and less judgmental about yourself, others, and the

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Speaker 1: world around you. Welcome to You Need Therapy, Hi guys,

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Speaker 1: and welcome to another new Monday episode of therapy podcast.

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Speaker 1: My name is Kat, I'm the host, and quick reminder

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Speaker 1: before we get into anything that although I'm a therapist

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Speaker 1: and there's actually going to be another therapist on this episode,

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Speaker 1: this podcast does not serve as a replacement or a

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Speaker 1: substitute for any mental health services, although we always hope

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Speaker 1: that it helps wherever you are in whatever journey that

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Speaker 1: you're on. So this week I have not one but

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Speaker 1: two guests, which is very exciting, one you're very familiar with,

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Speaker 1: in one you haven't met yet. And my guests are

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Speaker 1: Tara Booker, which by now you guys know her just

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Speaker 1: as much as you basically know me, and her partner,

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Speaker 1: Omari Booker. And Omari is an artist who currently has

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Speaker 1: a solo exhibit at a gallery called Elephant Gallery in Nashville, Tennessee.

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Speaker 1: And this exhibit is called fifteen, which it will be

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Speaker 1: going on through May twentieth. But it's not your just

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Speaker 1: ordinary art exhibit, if you will, and I don't really

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Speaker 1: know if you can call any art exhibit ordinary, but

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Speaker 1: this one especially isn't because it marks a very important

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Speaker 1: part of Omari's story, which is the end of his

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Speaker 1: parole following a fifteen year prison sentence. In the last

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Speaker 1: fifteen years, Omari has found both relationships and art to

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Speaker 1: be two of the most valuable resources and healing agents

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Speaker 1: in his own story. And in this conversation we talk

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Speaker 1: through we talk about a lot of things, but we

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Speaker 1: talk about and we talk through how he access hope

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Speaker 1: in an unimaginable circumstance and how specifically he used art

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Speaker 1: to access both freedom and liberation through prisons that were

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Speaker 1: socially constructed and also prisons that are personally constructed in

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Speaker 1: our own minds. And I want to say this now

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Speaker 1: because I know people listening are going to be like,

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I need to see this stuff. I

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Speaker 1: need to see And I want to put a visual

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Speaker 1: with what we're talking about. And if you just want

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Speaker 1: to get connected with Omari in anyway, I've linked everything

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Speaker 1: that you need in the show notes, where you can

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Speaker 1: find him, where you can find his art, all of

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Speaker 1: the things. And again, his show is going through April

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Speaker 1: twentieth at Elephant Gallery. I highly recommend you see that

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Speaker 1: if you are in Nashville and that is possible, And

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Speaker 1: if you just want to connect with him on Instagram,

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Speaker 1: it's at Omari Booker. We also know that Tara doesn't

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Speaker 1: like to be found, so we don't have to give

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Speaker 1: that information. I want to say before I go into

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Speaker 1: our conversation that I feel very grateful to have been

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Speaker 1: able to be a part of this conversation. I said

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Speaker 1: to Tara's talking to her, I was like, there's so

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Speaker 1: many things I want to talk about, and I think

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Speaker 1: this is just going to be one of those episodes

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Speaker 1: where I just want to hear you guys, and you

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Speaker 1: all know that I can talk a lot, and this

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Speaker 1: is one of those conversations where I just wanted to

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Speaker 1: sit there and listen and listen and listen and listen

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Speaker 1: because there is so much and so I feel very

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Speaker 1: grateful to be able to have been part of this conversation,

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Speaker 1: and even more grateful that I now get to share

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Speaker 1: this with you guys, because I know there are so

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Speaker 1: many important nuggets inside of all that we talked about. So,

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Speaker 1: without further ado, here is my conversation with Tara and

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Speaker 1: Omari Booker. Okay, guys, we have an even more special

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Speaker 1: than a normal special episode today because we have an

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Speaker 1: old friend Tara. Wouldag say hello, Hello, Tara Booker here, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and she's been on again. Our most what would you

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Speaker 1: call that most consistent, most returning? What's a word for that?

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Speaker 2: Repeate?

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Speaker 1: Yes, most repeatedness of vender and she is joined. We

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Speaker 1: are joined here with her partner, Omari. Which would you

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Speaker 1: like to do your little bit? You've been doing this

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Speaker 1: for the past two minutes.

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Speaker 2: This is Omari test test check one.

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Speaker 1: We've been doing that for about five minutes. Because Omari

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Speaker 1: has a different what do you call this? Is that octaves? Is?

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Speaker 1: What's an octave? He has a deeper voice.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and even deeper with the allergy season, So I'm

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Speaker 2: extra soul radio.

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Speaker 1: You probably are going to sound so good on.

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Speaker 2: This coming for your job.

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Speaker 1: Anyway. We are here because there's something really exciting happening

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Speaker 1: in Omari's life that I think has the opportunity to

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Speaker 1: impact a lot of people's lives, and we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk all about that. I have saved a lot of

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Speaker 1: questions that I've wanted to ask beforehand because I want

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Speaker 1: to be kind of in this as you guys listening

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Speaker 1: are in it. So just so you know, when I'm

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Speaker 1: asking something, I really am asking because I don't know

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Speaker 1: the answer. And we're going to learn and get to

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Speaker 1: know Omari and Tara and o'mary together together. So I

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Speaker 1: want to start if you could tell us how you

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Speaker 1: guys met and maybe the beginnings of your relationship.

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Speaker 2: I met Tara Booker on Broadway back when Broadway was

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Speaker 2: still for locals.

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Speaker 1: Wait, what bar was it?

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Speaker 2: Well, it was currently called Jason al Deans. At that

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Speaker 2: time it was called Cadillac Ranch, and there was a

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Speaker 2: rooftop club called Karma, and Tara was sitting in the

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Speaker 2: VIP section, And though I was not in there, I

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Speaker 2: got close enough to the rope to ask if she

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Speaker 2: could come over and chat with me for a bit,

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Speaker 2: and she did, and we talked for a little a

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Speaker 2: little while, and I got it. I got the digits

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Speaker 2: and we went out the next week.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, oh my gosh, you were in the VIP section.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, nothing came with that except for being in the seats.

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Speaker 1: Okay, it was some person. I knew you'd have to

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Speaker 1: pay extra to get in there.

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Speaker 3: Not with the person who got the seats fancy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so wait, I am very This isn't the

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Speaker 1: point of the podcast, but I'm just curious. What were

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Speaker 1: your thoughts when you met him? We were I hope

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Speaker 1: he asked for my number.

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Speaker 3: Oh, yeah, I can tell you. Well. He was very handsome,

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Speaker 3: and as I was talking to him and he asked

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Speaker 3: for my number, he said, I'd like to take you

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Speaker 3: out sometime. Can I have your number? The things that

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Speaker 3: struck me really in the moment, and this is two

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Speaker 3: thousand and nine. I was at the end of my

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Speaker 3: twenty first year, so I was almost twenty two, not quite,

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Speaker 3: so I was still baby in a lot of ways.

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Speaker 1: That's so interesting to think about, I know.

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Speaker 3: So the things that struck me at that time were

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Speaker 3: he was very gentlemanly. I could tell that he didn't like,

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Speaker 3: asked to buy me a drink, he didn't ask to

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Speaker 3: come dance with him. It was definitely a bar where

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Speaker 3: it was a club really where you could do that.

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Speaker 3: And he didn't ask to like take me home. It's

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Speaker 3: so kind, and all of those things felt unfamiliar, like

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Speaker 3: it was literally we just had a conversation. Where are

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Speaker 3: you from? Oh, you're both we're both from here, you're

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Speaker 3: in school, you're doing this. Nice to meet you. Could

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Speaker 3: I have your number and take you out sometime? It

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Speaker 3: was just respectful and normal and kind and direct, And

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Speaker 3: I thought, I'm curious about this person because this feels

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Speaker 3: unfortunately in a lot of ways unusual, maybe especially in

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Speaker 3: a situation like that.

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Speaker 1: That's a whole podcast for another day, right of how

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Speaker 1: that felt unusual, and then you're like, huh, this makes

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Speaker 1: me curious. I want to get to know this person,

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Speaker 1: and that feels to me, and this is knowing not

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Speaker 1: so much a lot healthier than some of these situations

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Speaker 1: that I think a lot of us have encountered, and

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Speaker 1: people listening and have encountered where it's like this world

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Speaker 1: when I was this crazy night.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it was maybe fifteen minutes, ten minutes. Good for

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Speaker 3: you chatting nice.

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Speaker 1: He's like, I did a job. Okay, So you met

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Speaker 1: in with that two thousand and eightine nine. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: you met in two thousand and nine. How did that

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Speaker 1: relationship go? Like the movement of it, because then we're

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Speaker 1: going to get into all of the other stuff. So

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Speaker 1: what was that process? You went on a date the

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Speaker 1: next week?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we went on a date I believe it was

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Speaker 2: Wednesday of the next week and went to dinner. Still

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Speaker 2: remember the spot that we went to, went to dinner,

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Speaker 2: and it went like slowly initially, and then when I

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Speaker 2: found found out that I was leaving, it kind of. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't say that it went any quicker, but definitely

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Speaker 2: like the intensity of having to make some kind of

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Speaker 2: big decisions pretty early about what we're going to do

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Speaker 2: with this huge thing in my life, which which was

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Speaker 2: I might have to go to prison. I don't know

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Speaker 2: how long it's going to be, and I'm just kind

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Speaker 2: of in that limbo until I do.

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Speaker 1: And so when you met Tara, were you aware that

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Speaker 1: that was a thing? Was okay?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So I was out on bond at the time

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Speaker 2: that I met Tara. I had been arrested bailed out,

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Speaker 2: but it.

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Speaker 3: Was a trial court yeah, well court date in October.

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Speaker 2: Yes, but we didn't really know what was going to

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Speaker 2: happen because it wasn't necessarily trial. It could have been

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Speaker 2: a plea for something smaller, like we didn't know what

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Speaker 2: there were so so the results weren't necessarily jail time

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Speaker 2: at that point. It could have been heavy probation, it

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Speaker 2: could have been so so I was I was awaiting

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Speaker 2: the Yeah, what was going to happen with the sentence

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Speaker 2: for sure?

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Speaker 1: So what was that process like of not knowing what

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Speaker 1: could happen and so many different things could happen. How

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Speaker 1: did you go out and just live your life with that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I have always kind of been pretty

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Speaker 2: one day at a time, and at that point that

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Speaker 2: was the that was sort of how I was living

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Speaker 2: was you know, I met Tara, I thought that she

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Speaker 2: was amazing, and in my hope was that if the

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Speaker 2: worst case happened, which was me leaving, that you know,

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Speaker 2: I would make enough of an impression that when I

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Speaker 2: came home, I could go find her and and we could,

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Speaker 2: you know, we could continue, especially the age that she was.

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Speaker 2: I didn't feel really pull to ask her to go

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Speaker 2: through that with me because I didn't want didn't know

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Speaker 2: what it was gonna be or when it was going

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Speaker 2: to end. If it was like a year or something,

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Speaker 2: then it probably would have been something different. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: that that whole season was just very unknown, and I

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Speaker 2: think we were sort of able to, you know, to

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Speaker 2: fall in love at the pace that we would. And

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Speaker 2: of course I fell in love first and set it

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Speaker 2: first and all all that stuff, but but yeah, I

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Speaker 2: think my kind of knowing who she was and would

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Speaker 2: be to me just me to kind of pursue it

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Speaker 2: in the way that you wouldn't pursue anything that you

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Speaker 2: knew was the right thing for you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll add some stuff. He's not so much a

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Speaker 3: linear thinker or talker, so and I tend to be

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Speaker 3: in that like what I remember, and you can speak

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Speaker 3: to this or just it if it doesn't quite fit.

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Speaker 3: I remember about the before you knew your sentence before that,

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Speaker 3: so that was about a month into us dating. He

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Speaker 3: didn't know. He still didn't know what's going to come

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Speaker 3: of this charge essentially from a year before, and it

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Speaker 3: really felt like he believed, or was holding on to

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Speaker 3: hope whatever one of those fits, that he was going

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Speaker 3: to get probation. And I think in a lot of

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Speaker 3: ways that's also a survival mechanism, like you're not just

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Speaker 3: going to expect that you're going to have to be incarcerated.

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Speaker 3: And there's a lot of other reasons why. I think

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Speaker 3: that would have made sense too, that he actually that

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Speaker 3: would have been the result legally speaking. So I think

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Speaker 3: that was part of the what are you doing in

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Speaker 3: between the arrest and waiting to see what happens with

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Speaker 3: this charge is you were living your life. You went

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Speaker 3: back to college, and he hadn't finished his undergrad he

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Speaker 3: had been out of school for several years. That also

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Speaker 3: was a little bit of when art started to already

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Speaker 3: enter back in. He went back in specifically for graphic design,

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Speaker 3: which was not the study that he had studied however,

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Speaker 3: many years before, when he had initially started college and

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Speaker 3: was working and going to school and then going out

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Speaker 3: like a normal person, meeting me, dating and then not knowing,

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Speaker 3: oh all of them, I gonna be able to do

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Speaker 3: any of these things if I because I'm going to

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Speaker 3: be going to prison.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, which is so a wild that's just wild to

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Speaker 1: just think about. I want to read, because we're like

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Speaker 1: teasing it a little bit. I want to read part

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Speaker 1: of it's the beginning of this article that was in

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Speaker 1: Nashville Scene. Terror sent this to me. I want to

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Speaker 1: read this because this is really a nice little summary

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Speaker 1: of what I think is something that has the ability

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Speaker 1: to impact a lot of people. And obviously this is

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Speaker 1: your life, so it's been an impact for you, and

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Speaker 1: I want to get into this. So if people are like,

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Speaker 1: what are they talking about? This is a article from

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Speaker 1: the National Scene and it's written by Erica Chicaroni, which

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Speaker 1: you have the coolest last name in the world, and

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Speaker 1: she wrote in two thousand and eight, Omari Booker was

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Speaker 1: arrested for a nonviolent drug offense and a poetic gesture

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Speaker 1: of optimism. He took an art class at Tennessee State

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Speaker 1: University when he was out on bond awaiting sentence. He

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Speaker 1: entered Charles Basque Correctional Complex in two thousand and nine

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Speaker 1: with a fifteen year sentence. Booker served three and a

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Speaker 1: half years before being released on parole fifteen. His Moving

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Speaker 1: Solo exhibition at Elephant Gallery, on view through May twentieth,

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Speaker 1: marks the end of his parole. In a June two

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Speaker 1: thousand and seven ten interview for Nashville Arts Magazine, Booker

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Speaker 1: told me that when he was incarcerated, art became a

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Speaker 1: way to feel free. When I was drawing, sketching and

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Speaker 1: listening to my headphones, I didn't feel like I was

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Speaker 1: in prison anymore. He wants his work to help others

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Speaker 1: access freedom as well, from prison socially or personally constructed,

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Speaker 1: in other words, from whatever keeps us all from liberation

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Speaker 1: of the mind. So I wanted to read that because

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Speaker 1: that is a lot in two paragraphs. And if anybody

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Speaker 1: who was listening, we've been like tiptoeing around this. You

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Speaker 1: were waiting your sentencing, you got sentenced to fifteen years

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Speaker 1: in prison.

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Speaker 2: I did.

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Speaker 1: I can't assume whether people are feeling, but to me,

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Speaker 1: that sounds really, really scary.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that's part of when I think

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Speaker 2: back to the time before I was sentenced and now

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Speaker 2: I'm at the end of the I'm at the end

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Speaker 2: of it. I have completed it. But initially it felt

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Speaker 2: like a shock. It felt like, yeah, are you serious,

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Speaker 2: first offense, nonviolent drug possession, college kid. Yeah, dad's a lawyer,

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Speaker 2: Dad knows the jail like all of these things. So

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Speaker 2: I was optimistic. But I was only optimistic because from

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Speaker 2: the community that I was connected with, nobody got that

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Speaker 2: kind of time. Yeah, and that's not the black community,

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Speaker 2: but you know, the schools that I went to, the

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Speaker 2: environments that I've been in, similar offens has happened, and

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Speaker 2: so so yeah, I think I was. I was a

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Speaker 2: little bit blindsided by the amount of time. And so

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Speaker 2: so when it came to Tarry and I was like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I don't even know what to tell somebody that I

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Speaker 2: love about, Like I could be gone for for fifteen

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Speaker 2: years or five or ten however long before I make

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Speaker 2: pro which you don't know. But it ended up being

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Speaker 2: three and a half years then.

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Speaker 1: I made pro But you don't know that.

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Speaker 2: You don't know at the beginning, you have no idea. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So what I love about having you here and Terror

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Speaker 1: here is that you guys walked through this season together

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Speaker 1: the whole time, which is so cool. And I want

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Speaker 1: to get to learning more about how you used art

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Speaker 1: and all that to find some peace and hope and

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Speaker 1: all the things in a space like this before we

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Speaker 1: get there. I'm curious for Tara because I didn't know

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Speaker 1: you at this point. I think I met you. I

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Speaker 1: must have met you in twenty thirteen, So were you

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Speaker 1: already out?

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Speaker 3: I thought I came home in January of thirteen. Oh

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Speaker 3: my goodness, you met me right after you came home.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so when that happened, it was a shock

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Speaker 1: to Omari was also.

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Speaker 3: A shock to you, definitely.

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Speaker 1: Okay. So you're thinking, like that wouldn't be the outcome.

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Speaker 3: No, I have no frame of reference for a person

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Speaker 3: exxperiencing a fifteen year prison so yeah, no, not at all.

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Speaker 3: So when I also, you know, know, people in my

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Speaker 3: family had experienced drug charges, so like it wasn't like

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Speaker 3: the whole system was completely foreign to me. Yeah, but

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Speaker 3: it was like little smaller possessions and little probations and

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Speaker 3: multiple operations and little stuff like that. So no, yeah,

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Speaker 3: it was shocking.

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Speaker 1: So two of you, separately and together, I want all

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Speaker 1: of these answers. How did both of you in the

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Speaker 1: beginning of that awareness cope with the future separately and

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Speaker 1: how did you do that together? Because it's a new relationship,

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Speaker 1: right relatively? Yeah, six six months weeks? Oh six weeks?

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I was thinking, I don't know why

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Speaker 1: I heard months in my head.

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Speaker 2: Okay, week August to September till October.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, it was like between six and eight weeks,

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Speaker 3: maybe eight weeks total before he left. He got his

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Speaker 3: sentence and had about two.

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Speaker 2: Weeks, yeah, sixteen days to get my affairs in order

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Speaker 2: before I was, before I to turn.

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Speaker 3: Myself in it got the sentence when maybe we were

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Speaker 3: about six ish weeks into dating, and then leave a

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Speaker 3: couple weeks later, so we had about a couple months

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Speaker 3: of being together before we're going to do this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, how did you prepare for that or did you

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Speaker 1: even know how?

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Speaker 2: I don't think we intellectually prepared for it. I think

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Speaker 2: like spiritually we had some things that we could draw

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Speaker 2: on that we didn't know that we had until we

360
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Speaker 2: had to draw on them. And so I think I

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Speaker 2: kind of wanted to both sort of hold on and

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Speaker 2: let go, and I think Tara knew that I wanted

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Speaker 2: to hold on and let go, and she was really

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Speaker 2: gracious in kind of allowing both and just saying that,

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Speaker 2: you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna be here as long

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Speaker 2: as it is, as long as we're in a relationship

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Speaker 2: and it works, and if it ever doesn't work, we'll

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Speaker 2: we'll cross that bridge when we get there. And so

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Speaker 2: so we did kind of slow everything down to a

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Speaker 2: we're gonna go day by day, you know, we'll write letters.

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Speaker 2: And once we got to visit, we visited and it

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Speaker 2: kind of went day by day and till we got

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Speaker 2: into a couple of years of it. And Yeah, but

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Speaker 2: I don't think either one of us had any idea

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Speaker 2: how challenging it would be or what it meant to

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Speaker 2: do it. Yeah, we just we kind of had to

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Speaker 2: walk our way through something we didn't.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, nobody's like, let me tell you what we did.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it feels important for me to acknowledge that,

380
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Speaker 3: like we in the sense of how did we prepare

381
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Speaker 3: what was our mindset or whatever going into it. It

382
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Speaker 3: wasn't magical or mystical or fantastical. It wasn't a fucking

383
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Speaker 3: movie where we're like, I'm just so in love with you,

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Speaker 3: We're going to do this. I was literally as simple

385
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Speaker 3: as I mean, I was not swept away six weeks

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Speaker 3: and I didn't just maybe was considering that I loved

387
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Speaker 3: him and was very into the relationship. But I think

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Speaker 3: because of these dynamics that are so like out of

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Speaker 3: the normal, it can start to feel like a mystical story,

390
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Speaker 3: and I want to put some reality into it. In

391
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Speaker 3: the sense that I just simply wasn't led to leave.

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Speaker 3: It really came down to that. For me. This came

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Speaker 3: and I wasn't like, I don't want to do it,

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Speaker 3: and so I just said, I'm just gonna keep hanging

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Speaker 3: out and see if I start to feel different.

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Speaker 1: Which, like, God, bless you for saying that, because it

397
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Speaker 1: goes back to even you talking about how you guys met.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't this like I saw fireworks in his eyes

399
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Speaker 1: and he took me home and I never left his

400
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Speaker 1: apartment for six weeks. Like it was. He asked for

401
00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:35,240
Speaker 1: my number and he was kind and like, what if

402
00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:37,920
Speaker 1: that's what we were out here looking for? So it's

403
00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:42,119
Speaker 1: not this sensationalized thing of this like love story and

404
00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:44,159
Speaker 1: what's gonna happen and dead da day. It was like

405
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Speaker 1: this was just what it was and it was nothing

406
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Speaker 1: more than that until it was.

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Speaker 3: And it was then just day by day. Like I

408
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:56,399
Speaker 3: think actually most relationships go in the beginning, Well real relationships,

409
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Speaker 3: you're just like, Okay, we'll just keep seeing how we feel.

410
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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so funny because whenever people I'm sure you

411
00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:05,920
Speaker 1: have this, when clients are, you know, dating something, they're like,

412
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Speaker 1: I don't know if I like him, I don't know,

413
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:09,359
Speaker 1: d like I don't know, but he doesn't have this

414
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Speaker 1: and like I can't see this, and like what if

415
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Speaker 1: he doesn't want this in the future, And I'm like,

416
00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:16,679
Speaker 1: do you want to see this person again? Yes, okay,

417
00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:19,760
Speaker 1: go do that. Like all of that stuff doesn't have

418
00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:21,879
Speaker 1: to be figured out, So you both didn't need to

419
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Speaker 1: know what was going to happen in fifteen years with

420
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Speaker 1: both of y'all to know that you didn't want to

421
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Speaker 1: stop whatever is happening at that moment.

422
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Speaker 2: And yeah, and the one thing I would add to

423
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Speaker 2: that is if people here don't know Tara, they don't

424
00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:38,760
Speaker 2: don't know Tara Booker from outside of this conversation. That's

425
00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:42,159
Speaker 2: just consistent for her life, Like she's not led to

426
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Speaker 2: leave because something is difficult. It's like she'll leave if

427
00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:50,359
Speaker 2: it's not right. But her work, her family, her loved ones,

428
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:53,960
Speaker 2: I mean, her entire life is an example of if

429
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:57,119
Speaker 2: I'm supposed to go, I'll go, but not because it's hard.

430
00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:59,159
Speaker 2: That's not gonna be the reason I'm gonna go. And

431
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Speaker 2: I think that's that's the reason that we're sitting here.

432
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Speaker 2: A lot of people, even if it was right, they

433
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Speaker 2: would leave because it's hard, and that's just that's not her.

434
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Speaker 1: So what a good quality to have Tara.

435
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:13,199
Speaker 3: That's touching.

436
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:22,960
Speaker 1: This conversation is spurring from this exhibit you have that's

437
00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:27,680
Speaker 1: out right now, and reading this article made me think

438
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:33,040
Speaker 1: you were not an artist until that point. Were you

439
00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,000
Speaker 1: already doing art and painting and drawing before that or

440
00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:38,679
Speaker 1: when you went back to TSU? Was that like a

441
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:39,480
Speaker 1: random thing.

442
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 2: I was making art before, I wasn't making art consistently

443
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:47,560
Speaker 2: or professionally. But I took my first art class as

444
00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:50,680
Speaker 2: a senior in high school. I changed majors my third

445
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,399
Speaker 2: year into Belmont. So I went to Belmonte University as

446
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:57,040
Speaker 2: a math major and to play basketball, and my third

447
00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 2: year I changed to a graphic design and studio art

448
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:03,480
Speaker 2: major before leaving school, and so I had an introduction

449
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:06,680
Speaker 2: to art and art making. But I was also going

450
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,200
Speaker 2: through mental health diagnosis at the time. I was diagnosed

451
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:11,480
Speaker 2: with bi polar disorder when I was nineteen, and so

452
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:15,720
Speaker 2: a lot of my early art making wasn't very focused,

453
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:18,159
Speaker 2: and because the way that my life was going, I

454
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,080
Speaker 2: wasn't realizing how much art making was doing for me.

455
00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:24,160
Speaker 2: So I had an introduction, and so when I did

456
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:27,960
Speaker 2: get into making art in prison, it wasn't like picking

457
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:31,359
Speaker 2: up a foreign thing. It was almost like, yeah, I

458
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:35,840
Speaker 2: know my way around these materials, but actually learning how

459
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 2: to use the materials. The work progressed. I mean, it's

460
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,400
Speaker 2: light years from when I was in. I was really

461
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:44,440
Speaker 2: a beginner when I was in Even though I had

462
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 2: taken some classes, I was still early enough and making

463
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 2: artwork that that was very new to It.

464
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:53,960
Speaker 1: Is a lot of what you've done just self taught

465
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 1: through experiencing and doing it.

466
00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,399
Speaker 2: It's both My Tennessee State University was art department that

467
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 2: I graduated from and had great instructors. Sam Dunsan, who's

468
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 2: gonna moderate a gallery talk with us on on April

469
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:13,240
Speaker 2: twenty eighth at Elephant. He was my art instructor at TSU.

470
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,919
Speaker 2: Mister Wallmac Jim Walmack was my art instructor in high school.

471
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,200
Speaker 2: And I had a lot of other mentors, Michael McBride,

472
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 2: James Thrillkill, just artists in the community. So I definitely

473
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 2: was taught, and then I kind of had to continue

474
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 2: pushing what I learned. Like anybody in school, if you're

475
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 2: an artist, you might, you know, go to two three

476
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 2: four years of school for art, but you're going to

477
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 2: be making artwork for forty fifty years and so so

478
00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,720
Speaker 2: you kind of get But I definitely would. I would

479
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 2: definitely say that I that I was taught, and then

480
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:48,440
Speaker 2: I also did a lot of exploration on my own too.

481
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:54,640
Speaker 1: Okay, so you go into prison, which can you give

482
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:56,920
Speaker 1: me a little bit of what that like? First day

483
00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 1: was like, Yeah, the first day.

484
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,640
Speaker 2: You know, Tara and I would have been together that morning,

485
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:04,439
Speaker 2: like the day that I got in and the day

486
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 2: I got home, and she would have dropped me off

487
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 2: and picked me up on both sides of that. So

488
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 2: so yeah, I mean I think there was just a

489
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 2: lot of heavy depression when I first went in. I mean,

490
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 2: for one thing, the diet was hard to get used to.

491
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 2: For my size. You can't see through my voice, but

492
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:26,200
Speaker 2: I'm about six eight nine two hundred and twenty five pounds,

493
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 2: and just the amount that you were fed was kind

494
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 2: of jarring. So it's like really really hungry all the

495
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:35,320
Speaker 2: time until I kind of was there long enough to

496
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 2: you know, to get commissary, which is just like your

497
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:40,680
Speaker 2: groceries or whatever, and you sort of figure out ways

498
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:42,880
Speaker 2: to supplement that. So I think one of the initial

499
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 2: things was really just like the physical part of it,

500
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 2: like how bathing was kind of gross, how hungry you were,

501
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:55,440
Speaker 2: how like waiting for the phone was a challenge, being

502
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:59,440
Speaker 2: new to the environment and in certain people already being

503
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 2: kind of connected and looking at ways to take advantage

504
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,000
Speaker 2: of you know, I don't even mean like take advantage physically,

505
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 2: but with whatever food you get or Yeah, so it's

506
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 2: like just the whole experience of being dropped into a

507
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:19,160
Speaker 2: place when you have to really be vigilant about how

508
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:22,120
Speaker 2: you take care of yourself. So so so the emotional

509
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 2: stuff there wasn't even really time for that to hit

510
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 2: because like the physical day to day was such a

511
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:34,439
Speaker 2: drastic difference. Yeah, trying to fit on the bed, you know,

512
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 2: all the stuff, and then just yeah, just just depression,

513
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 2: so trying to sleep as much as possible.

514
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 1: Initially, the beginning sounds like just how do I survive this?

515
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 2: How do I survive it?

516
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, I might be depressed, but we can't

517
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 1: even go into that because I have to learn how

518
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 1: to make it through this day for sure, or this

519
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 1: night or this meal. Do you remember the tear of

520
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 1: that first day.

521
00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 3: I remember taking him and chopping him off, and then

522
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 3: I didn't get to hear from him for a little while.

523
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 3: I don't remember the timeline exactly on that a couple

524
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:13,200
Speaker 3: of weeks, so it's just waiting for me. He goes

525
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 3: into County Jail, you get like go through a process

526
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 3: of intake, and then they transfer you to the prison

527
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:23,159
Speaker 3: that you're going to be at more permanently. So the

528
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 3: first couple of days are in County Jail and then

529
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 3: you land at Charles Bass and then things start to

530
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:33,480
Speaker 3: you start to figure out the system of that, like what, okay,

531
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,880
Speaker 3: your kid call me? How does that work. I can

532
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 3: write you, you can write me. How does that work?

533
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 3: When are you eligible for visitations? That's when you start

534
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 3: to think about that. But at the beginning it was

535
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 3: just I don't know. I'm just gonna wait till you

536
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 3: call me and see how you're doing.

537
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 1: Does it feel like a long time ago? Does it

538
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 1: feel like yesterday? Does it feel like fifteen years ago?

539
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 2: It feels like fifteen years ago to me, Okay, it

540
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 2: doesn't feel like just yesterday. I mean, Tara's been a

541
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 2: profession she's been a professional therapist for a long time,

542
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 2: and she was working at Reebok in undergrad like the

543
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 2: the thing, like what her life looked like. I mean,

544
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 2: I remember that one of the biggest I wouldn't say

545
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 2: challenges with things we had to pay attention to was

546
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 2: I might only have a small window to call, and

547
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 2: so if she missed that call, I might not be

548
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 2: able to get back out, we might get locked down whatever,

549
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:29,959
Speaker 2: And so her having to communicate with her manager at

550
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 2: her store of like, I know, we're not supposed to

551
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 2: have our phone while we're out working the floor, but

552
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 2: my partners in prison and if I miss his call,

553
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,479
Speaker 2: I can't get it. And then you know Nikki who

554
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 2: that manager was, and Shannon who we still remember, these

555
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 2: these people because they, yeah, they kind of made sure

556
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 2: that that she had some special yeah, that she could

557
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 2: do the things that you know, made me be able

558
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 2: to get through the day, because if I couldn't make

559
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 2: that call, I mean, you know, any guy that is,

560
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 2: or any person that is that's in love with a

561
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 2: twenty two year old beautiful woman and can't yeah, not

562
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 2: only can't hear their voice, but also you know, no,

563
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 2: you can't be there. It's it would be it would

564
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 2: get really tough to not be able to communicate.

565
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 1: So, which I want to highlight this and this probably

566
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 1: is going to come out not the best way, but

567
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 1: I'm just going to say what's coming in my head.

568
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 1: What is interesting what you just said is the way

569
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 1: you phrased it was her managers being able to give

570
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 1: her the permission or privileges or whatever she needs so

571
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:33,640
Speaker 1: she can get a call from you. But it's just

572
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 1: as much about you being able to talk to her. Yeah,

573
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 1: and I don't know these people, but to have the

574
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 1: ability to say it's not just about Tara. This person

575
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,239
Speaker 1: is trying to contact somebody that they care about and

576
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 1: they're in a un distressing situation and we're thinking about

577
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 1: them too. Those people sound wonderful, And I want to

578
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 1: say that because I feel like if I'm saying this

579
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:00,479
Speaker 1: with honesty, and there's like shame in it too. But

580
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 1: if I didn't know you, actually, if I didn't know you,

581
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 1: and this was like fifteen years ago and I heard

582
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 1: somebody got sentenced to jail for fifteen years for a

583
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 1: drug offense, I don't know that I would it would

584
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 1: matter what it was because I didn't understand. I wouldn't

585
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 1: been able to understand it. I don't know that I

586
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 1: would be thinking that, like, I don't know that I

587
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 1: would be thinking, oh my gosh, now it feels very different.

588
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 1: And I don't know if that's age or if it's

589
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 1: just the people I'm around, the work i'm in. But

590
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 1: for people to have that first thought being there's somebody that, yeah,

591
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 1: he's in prison, what I'm really saying is people that

592
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 1: see people in prison have this automatic idea that they're

593
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:46,360
Speaker 1: bad or they did something bad, and so then they're bad,

594
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 1: and that's not really the case here. And I just

595
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 1: think it's nice that those people, whether or not they

596
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 1: realize that's what they were doing. They're automatically having that

597
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 1: thought of like, this is a human being that deserves

598
00:31:58,400 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 1: connection with people.

599
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that's something to like when people

600
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 2: think about what could I do? You know, you might

601
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 2: be the manager at a at a Reebok or a

602
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 2: McDonald's or Wendy's, and you're gonna have someone that's in

603
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 2: this situation. For every one person that's in prison, there's two, three, four, five,

604
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 2: six people that are trying to navigate these situations like

605
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 2: I need off work on Saturday so I can drive

606
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 2: an hour away from where I live to go visit

607
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 2: this person that you know. So so yeah, I mean

608
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 2: I think that's something that when people ask like what

609
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 2: can I do, it's like, yeah, just paying attention to

610
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 2: what things might show up in your life that even

611
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 2: though you might have this notion of what someone incarcerated

612
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 2: would be like or looks like or is like that's

613
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 2: a big part of what the show was about. It's like,

614
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 2: the same guy that was sitting in that cell is

615
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 2: the same guy that's sitting here, and you would make

616
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 2: those concessions.

617
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 1: For me, Now what I have done that?

618
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 2: Would you have done it? Then?

619
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 1: And so so yeah, what has that been like for

620
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 1: both of you, because there probably were people that weren't

621
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 1: like that. Why soon and that was there were there

622
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 1: people that maybe were more just like automatic judgment.

623
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm gonna just say one other thing about something

624
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 3: that came up that doesn't need to take us down

625
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 3: a huge rabbit hole, especially while he's not here. But

626
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:18,040
Speaker 3: and I'll come back to that, the thought about like

627
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 3: you did a thing and you got in prison, and

628
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 3: are you a bad person or you did a bad

629
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 3: thing or whatever? What is really true for me personally?

630
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 3: And he can speak to this in his own way,

631
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 3: I know he sees it similarly, is he did an

632
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 3: illegal thing that does deserve a consequence. I want to

633
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 3: name that because his conversation can get also get put

634
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 3: in a light that maybe isn't where we stand exactly,

635
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 3: of like everyone should be absolved of everything they do.

636
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 3: That's not where we stand. And really what that meant

637
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 3: for me is, like I think it is being highlighted

638
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 3: in this where it's very much a both and like

639
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 3: I actually had a lot of issue with it being

640
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 3: a drug. It was drug sales, drug possession for drug

641
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 3: sale resale. I had a lot of personal issue with

642
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:11,799
Speaker 3: that having loved to want to struggle with addiction, like

643
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 3: I had to wrestle with those things, and I did

644
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 3: that very overtly with him. That was part of the

645
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 3: first couple of months of us dating, was having to

646
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,439
Speaker 3: have those tough conversations where I had to be able

647
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:28,239
Speaker 3: to understand the human being behind this thing that I

648
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 3: also was not in agreement with and was had a

649
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 3: lot of feelings about it being done in the world.

650
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:38,800
Speaker 3: So I think that does speak to the complexity of

651
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 3: these two sides of everything's we're talking about, where it's

652
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 3: like you see someone this way, that is him, and

653
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 3: this is him. He did that. It's not I don't

654
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:49,359
Speaker 3: I'm not okay with it, and I'm okay with him.

655
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 3: It's very complex.

656
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 1: Because he did that doesn't equate to that is him.

657
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 3: That's of course, and that's what I'm I think I

658
00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:00,720
Speaker 3: want to communicate is there's those layers in this story

659
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 3: and they were very real for us.

660
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 1: Well, and I'm glad you said that, because you're right.

661
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:08,400
Speaker 1: There could be this notion that you're like, he should

662
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 1: just be excused because he's a good person, And yeah,

663
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 1: I think without consequences, this whole world would be so

664
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:20,839
Speaker 1: chaotic and when you have that automatic assumption that these

665
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:22,640
Speaker 1: kinds of people do that stuff, and these kinds of

666
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 1: people do that stuff, that doesn't equate to reality, and

667
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 1: I don't know that a lot of people. If you

668
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,879
Speaker 1: don't have that experience, it's almost like, if you don't

669
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 1: have that experience, it's a whole thing with racism, it's

670
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:35,239
Speaker 1: a whole thing with all of any of that kind

671
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:38,280
Speaker 1: of stuff, sexism, whatever. If you don't have that experience,

672
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:42,399
Speaker 1: then you have the privilege of not having to consider it.

673
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 1: But you not considering it is making a lot of

674
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,800
Speaker 1: things worse that don't need to be worse. And it's again,

675
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 1: it's the humanity of all of it. That's what I

676
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:54,400
Speaker 1: wanted to highlight is those people that don't even know you.

677
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:56,759
Speaker 1: I assume they didn't even know you, maybe they hadn't

678
00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:59,360
Speaker 1: met you. But the humanity that people can offer. And

679
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:01,800
Speaker 1: how big of a deal because those phone calls probably

680
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 1: made such a big deal in your everything.

681
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:07,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, only thing that I waited for in the day.

682
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:16,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So take us through. Because you were telling

683
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 1: me earlier when we were talking that you didn't start

684
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 1: drawing and painting and doing art at all when you

685
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:26,440
Speaker 1: got in there, So how did that progress and how

686
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:28,879
Speaker 1: did that happen? And then if you weren't doing that,

687
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:32,440
Speaker 1: how were you coping and what were you doing with

688
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:34,799
Speaker 1: your time besides waiting for Taratt to call.

689
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:38,319
Speaker 2: Yes? Yeah, Well, for one thing, everyone that's incarcerated has

690
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:42,400
Speaker 2: a job. So if you are in the prison system

691
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 2: anywhere in Tennessee, you have a job. So you're either

692
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 2: manufacturing something. You might be making food that goes to

693
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:53,759
Speaker 2: hospitals or other institutions, clothes, whatever that's associates.

694
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 3: Can you opt out of a job.

695
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 2: You cannot apt out of a job.

696
00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:00,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you get to pick I'll no, do you

697
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 3: get to pick your job?

698
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:01,799
Speaker 2: No, you don't.

699
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 3: This is why it's called the prison industrial complex because

700
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:08,320
Speaker 3: it's an industry that they are laboring people.

701
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a book choice. Yeah, there's a book called

702
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 2: slavery by another name.

703
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:17,279
Speaker 1: And so making a point here, yeah, absolutely, Yeah. So

704
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 1: you have no say yeah, and you have to do it.

705
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:21,879
Speaker 1: And if you don't do it, if you.

706
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:23,520
Speaker 2: Don't do it, you get you get put in what

707
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:24,839
Speaker 2: you know, what they call the holes. You get put

708
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,120
Speaker 2: in solitary confinement. So you agree to do it.

709
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:31,839
Speaker 1: So I was reading the poem that was on the website.

710
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 2: I don't remember what the poem was called this Blackbird.

711
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,600
Speaker 1: Okay, No, it wasn't the poem, it was the story.

712
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 1: It was a journal entries about shine.

713
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:40,840
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, one man.

714
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 1: Left now I understand what He was a shoe shiner,

715
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:45,759
Speaker 1: and he couldn't say I'm not working today, no, no

716
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 1: matter how those people treated him or said what happened. Also,

717
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:51,840
Speaker 1: you would get you said in there the whole Yes, you'd.

718
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:54,400
Speaker 2: Get either put in solitary confinement or you would get

719
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:59,240
Speaker 2: removed from the prison and sent to a more challenging

720
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 2: place like an a rougher prison basically. So it's like,

721
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 2: say you got comfortable somewhere in East Tennessee, your family

722
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 2: was close by, you said you're not gonna work. They'll say, well,

723
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:10,279
Speaker 2: we'll ship you to West Tennessee. So your family's got

724
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:13,839
Speaker 2: a drive five and a half plus hours to see you.

725
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 2: You know, there could be all all the repercussions of

726
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 2: going to a brand new institution with a brand new

727
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:21,399
Speaker 2: group of people.

728
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 1: And another job you don't pick, and.

729
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:24,279
Speaker 2: Another job you don't pick. So you're gonna do the

730
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 2: work anyway. So yeah, and I'd really encouraged slavery by

731
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,360
Speaker 2: another name. I don't remember the author, but the prison

732
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:36,239
Speaker 2: industry had its biggest boom when slavery was abolished. So

733
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 2: at the abolition of slavery, prison was essentially like enforced

734
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:45,120
Speaker 2: to make sure people still worked at the same level

735
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 2: as slaves. And it also took all.

736
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 3: Of the rights this slavery took. It took the same

737
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 3: you lost the same it was the same rights.

738
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:55,359
Speaker 1: So this is me talking very. I don't know what

739
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:58,719
Speaker 1: I'm talking about. So if I say something wrong, just

740
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 1: people listening. I'm saying I'm educated on this. I don't

741
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:04,759
Speaker 1: know what documentary it was that I was watching, but

742
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:08,279
Speaker 1: it was a documentary and it was talking about the

743
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:11,400
Speaker 1: just say no, the like say no to drugs like

744
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:14,839
Speaker 1: all of that. Yeah, yeah, and I forgot what it

745
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:18,800
Speaker 1: was at the whatever Again, I don't I'm expert in this. Whatever.

746
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 1: President pushed this agenda of the war on drugs, the

747
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:24,120
Speaker 1: war on drugs, so that's yeah.

748
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:25,840
Speaker 2: It was kind of Reagan into Clinton.

749
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:26,879
Speaker 1: Yes, okay, yeah.

750
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:30,160
Speaker 2: Clinton had the Crime Bill of nineteen ninety four, which

751
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:33,279
Speaker 2: was the three strikes You're in and it pulled all

752
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:36,239
Speaker 2: the college courses out of prisons, like if you were

753
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:38,360
Speaker 2: the pale grants and whatnot, So it kind of pulled

754
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:42,040
Speaker 2: a lot of the rehabilitative and then Reagan had more

755
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 2: of the War on drugs, so it was kind of

756
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:45,839
Speaker 2: a it was kind of a two part thing where

757
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:47,839
Speaker 2: the War on drugs lacks people up for a really

758
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:51,280
Speaker 2: long time. Then the Crime Bill pulled all the resources

759
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 2: and made it just work camps, you know, essentially.

760
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:56,279
Speaker 1: And then so what if somebody supposed to do when

761
00:39:56,280 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 1: they it wouldn't if they get out, It's like you're

762
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 1: just preparing them to come.

763
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:02,800
Speaker 2: Back here back. Yeah.

764
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:05,880
Speaker 1: Okay, so that's a whole thing. But that makes me

765
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:09,839
Speaker 1: think about just like you not expecting the sentencing that

766
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 1: you got, and then you get put in this prison

767
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 1: and you are then working this job that you have

768
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 1: no say in. And again, I think it's really important

769
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 1: to highlight what Tara said earlier. Nobody is saying that

770
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:26,680
Speaker 1: you didn't do something illegal and there should be repercussions there,

771
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 1: but it is just some things might not be adding up,

772
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:34,359
Speaker 1: things aren't matching up, and so for that to then

773
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:36,759
Speaker 1: lead you to be in prison working a job you

774
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 1: don't have any say in, that's just a whole different perspective.

775
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 1: To think about. People in prison are just like laying

776
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 1: in their beds.

777
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:46,399
Speaker 2: Not at all, You're working all day.

778
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:48,040
Speaker 1: Did you have the same job the whole time?

779
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 2: I had a few different jobs. Most of it was

780
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:53,360
Speaker 2: food related. I worked in a kitchen serving food, and

781
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:56,319
Speaker 2: then I worked in kind of a plant that we

782
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:59,399
Speaker 2: produce food that actually did get sold at And that's

783
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:01,360
Speaker 2: kind of another thing that people don't really realize is

784
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:05,160
Speaker 2: that things that we produce, even though our pay starts

785
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:07,400
Speaker 2: at nineteen cents an hour, it gets sold in the

786
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:11,240
Speaker 2: general market at the rate. So if we're making the food,

787
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:13,840
Speaker 2: it's being sold to a hospital at the rate that

788
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:16,759
Speaker 2: food is sold that but the labor is still being

789
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:21,359
Speaker 2: paid nineteen cents, thirty four cents fifty cents an hour.

790
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:25,320
Speaker 2: So I think that's something that people don't really consider,

791
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:29,239
Speaker 2: which is why there's an incentive to have that workforce there.

792
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 1: You know, write more money, more money, Yeah, and you

793
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 1: are making nineteen thirty four fifty whatever how many cents

794
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:41,359
Speaker 1: an hour. Again, it goes back to my question of

795
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:46,200
Speaker 1: when you leave, how unless you have support, unless you

796
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 1: have resources, unless there's plenty of people that don't have anything,

797
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:54,040
Speaker 1: how are you going to then enter back into the

798
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 1: world because I'm assuming some.

799
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:58,520
Speaker 3: Of the money without the resources, because that those so

800
00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 3: many cents an hour are the things he has to

801
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 3: use for commentary, to eat, the amount of food that

802
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:05,040
Speaker 3: his body actually needs in a day.

803
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:07,840
Speaker 1: So you're not saving those that money, You're using it

804
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:08,800
Speaker 1: to be able to survive.

805
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:12,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, and for phone time, oh, all the things that.

806
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 1: Cost you're working to be able to live in prison

807
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:16,720
Speaker 1: for sure.

808
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:20,359
Speaker 2: Yes, stamps so you can write your your loved one

809
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,640
Speaker 2: and it's like, you know you whatever I make, I

810
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 2: would like to put that towards putting money on the phone,

811
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 2: because you also don't want to ask your girlfriend at

812
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 2: the time to spend half of a check. See, y'all

813
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:32,399
Speaker 2: can talk every day.

814
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:34,879
Speaker 1: So another question I have because I don't know how

815
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:37,240
Speaker 1: do you get the material to draw?

816
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:42,239
Speaker 2: Things like pencils and pens. They either sell on commissary.

817
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 2: Sometimes you can get some from an get one from

818
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 2: an officer that you know that leaves one around and

819
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:50,759
Speaker 2: doesn't mind you using it or whatever. Sometimes you can

820
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 2: get one by making a drawing for Like there were

821
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:56,040
Speaker 2: officers that did drawings for and they took them home

822
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 2: to their to their their loved ones, and that kind

823
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:00,759
Speaker 2: of thing, So there are ways to get at some

824
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:03,880
Speaker 2: of those materials. I was just being really creative. I

825
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 2: think that that incarcerated people are are some of the

826
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 2: most creative and resourceful people in the world, which is

827
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:14,920
Speaker 2: what I think society does itself a huge disservice by

828
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:19,719
Speaker 2: not integrating those people back into society, because that's where

829
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:23,560
Speaker 2: you would find creative solutions, like the cure for cancer,

830
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 2: the cure for like all of those things that you

831
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:28,759
Speaker 2: need a creative solution for. These are the people that

832
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 2: have found ways out of no way for a lot

833
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:34,600
Speaker 2: of them, for their whole life. I mean, I knew

834
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:38,920
Speaker 2: guys had made ink and paint from scraping the pigment

835
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:42,480
Speaker 2: off of magazines and mixing it with toothpaste. Who could

836
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 2: boil water with a piece of wire and a battery,

837
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 2: you know that just found ways to do make tattoo

838
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:54,239
Speaker 2: guns out of all kinds of just little things. So yeah,

839
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:58,839
Speaker 2: I think like that that's the biggest disservice that society

840
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 2: does to itself by shoving this group of people into

841
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:05,279
Speaker 2: the end of the recesses of the world, is that

842
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 2: these are the people that have had to figure something

843
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:11,280
Speaker 2: out that most people haven't even had to think about,

844
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:14,960
Speaker 2: you know, And so so yeah, there's there's a lot

845
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:17,279
Speaker 2: of yeah, a lot of gifts, a lot of talent,

846
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:20,640
Speaker 2: a lot of creativity. I'm grateful for that side of

847
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:22,760
Speaker 2: it to have been in that in that space where

848
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:24,920
Speaker 2: I had to figure some of those things out. One

849
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:27,520
Speaker 2: of my drawings is made on a kitchen apron. So

850
00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 2: when I was working in the kitchen, I kept one

851
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 2: of the aprons when I went back to my unit

852
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:34,480
Speaker 2: and cut it in half and stretched that on a

853
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 2: piece of cardboard like a canvas and made a drawing

854
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:39,840
Speaker 2: that I sent home for Terror. That drawing is in

855
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 2: the show.

856
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 1: Is that's the one I sent Tara, Yes, because I

857
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:43,799
Speaker 1: saw it in the show and it said not for sale,

858
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:44,880
Speaker 1: and I sent it to her and I was like,

859
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 1: not for sale, Yeah, that's mine. But yeah, but I

860
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:50,440
Speaker 1: read that it was on an apron. I didn't know

861
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 1: what that meant. So that is just wild. And also

862
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:55,880
Speaker 1: again like so important what you said of like your mind,

863
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:59,439
Speaker 1: the way your minds have to grow and bend, and

864
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:02,160
Speaker 1: the creatvity that comes from that. And also I think

865
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:05,399
Speaker 1: that we need that, our world obviously needs that. There's

866
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:08,800
Speaker 1: a lot of things that we've been doing that are working.

867
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:11,000
Speaker 2: For sure, And even the art world, if you think

868
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 2: about how challenging it is for a lot of artists

869
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 2: to make a living making art, Like, I don't think

870
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:19,880
Speaker 2: that it's just happenstance that I'm one of the artists

871
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:21,759
Speaker 2: that's found a way to do that. And I think

872
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:24,320
Speaker 2: a lot of that is because I had to figure

873
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:27,960
Speaker 2: out a lot of the problem solving, yeah, before I

874
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 2: even got into making art consistently and so so Yeah,

875
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:33,919
Speaker 2: I mean I think even even things like education, where

876
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 2: you think about how, outside of teaching the specific skills

877
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:43,279
Speaker 2: of whatever trade or discipline you're doing, how do you

878
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 2: turn that into the life that you want it to be.

879
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:47,959
Speaker 2: I think there are a lot of lessons in there

880
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 2: about that.

881
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 1: Yeah.

882
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:52,399
Speaker 3: It's like, if you can barter your art, you know,

883
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 3: sell trade in prison, then I can definitely do something

884
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 3: out there in the world. I can make a job

885
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 3: out of this.

886
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 1: Yeah. So something that is coming up as you're talking

887
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 1: that I really want to get your perspective on. I

888
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 1: tread very lightly in a lot of situations that aren't

889
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:17,280
Speaker 1: my own, around any kind of trauma or misfortune, using

890
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:20,839
Speaker 1: that to set somebody up for gratitude because sometimes it

891
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:25,279
Speaker 1: can be just not the right thing. And hearing you

892
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:27,480
Speaker 1: say some of this, like just this came up when

893
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:30,840
Speaker 1: you said, like now being one of the few artists

894
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:33,000
Speaker 1: that are able to really make a living out of

895
00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 1: doing this, like part of that came from learning how

896
00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:39,879
Speaker 1: to do that in prison. When you look at this experience,

897
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:42,960
Speaker 1: I want to know, like, is this something that you're

898
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:46,520
Speaker 1: grateful for? Is it something that you're like, no, fuck that,

899
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:49,080
Speaker 1: but I had to do it because the fifteen years.

900
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:50,400
Speaker 1: I don't know if we made that clear. The fifteen

901
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 1: years was over on was April eleventh. When you look

902
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:56,839
Speaker 1: back on the fifteen years, are you like, oh, I'm

903
00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 1: glad that happened, or what comes up for you?

904
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:04,560
Speaker 2: I'm extremely grateful for it. I do not think that

905
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 2: everything is just that you're grateful for. I don't think

906
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:10,440
Speaker 2: that that you know that. I don't think that it

907
00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 2: excuses the system or that it means that this is

908
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:17,759
Speaker 2: what should happen to people. But in my specific situation,

909
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:20,359
Speaker 2: I don't think that I would be where I am

910
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:24,000
Speaker 2: today without that, in the same way that would Black

911
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 2: Americans be where they are today without slavery. When that

912
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:29,200
Speaker 2: doesn't mean slavery was good, or that there's any like

913
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:33,880
Speaker 2: yay slave owners. It's just basically that there's an amount

914
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:36,719
Speaker 2: of pressure that you can put on someone that can,

915
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:38,959
Speaker 2: you know, kind of crumble them, or it can also

916
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:42,239
Speaker 2: strengthen them. And I do think that this whole experience

917
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:45,480
Speaker 2: has I've learned a lot from it. I don't think

918
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:48,319
Speaker 2: that this is the way that we should try to

919
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:50,359
Speaker 2: usher people into the world, because I know that if

920
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:54,680
Speaker 2: everything didn't happen just right for me, the story isn't

921
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:55,680
Speaker 2: what it is today.

922
00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:58,399
Speaker 1: Well, your story is not everybody's story.

923
00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:02,160
Speaker 2: And it's it's and it's unfortunately it's not most people. Yeah.

924
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:04,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, And what I say a lot of times about

925
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:08,280
Speaker 1: things that whether they're big or small, things that happened

926
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:10,040
Speaker 1: that in the moment you're like, what the fuck, and

927
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:13,839
Speaker 1: then later you find gratitude is I'm grateful for where

928
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:17,600
Speaker 1: this has brought me. But it didn't have to happen

929
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:19,640
Speaker 1: that way. It could have happened a different way, or

930
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:21,520
Speaker 1: I wish it could have happened a different way. And

931
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:23,920
Speaker 1: so you saying like, yeah, I'm able to sell my

932
00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:26,279
Speaker 1: art and I'm able and I've learned all these things

933
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:28,160
Speaker 1: and had these experiences that have shaped who I am.

934
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:31,360
Speaker 1: But we shouldn't keep ushering this as the way to

935
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:33,840
Speaker 1: get people here. There has to be a better way.

936
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:37,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, there does. And in pain and suffering as universal.

937
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:39,640
Speaker 2: If you're born, you're going to go through it, So

938
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:45,600
Speaker 2: we don't need to intentionally, yeah, put our society through things.

939
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:50,239
Speaker 2: Just live. It's gonna, it's gonna happen. You know, it

940
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:52,920
Speaker 2: happens to us as kids, it happens to us as adults.

941
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:56,920
Speaker 2: It happens through all sorts of in some of these

942
00:48:56,960 --> 00:49:02,440
Speaker 2: really drastic examples like prison being institutionalized, slavery. You know,

943
00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:04,759
Speaker 2: you look at a Holocaust survivor, like any any of

944
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:07,279
Speaker 2: the And I'm not putting those all is equal because

945
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:10,880
Speaker 2: they're one hundred percent they're not. But anything that someone

946
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:15,840
Speaker 2: goes through that is extra kind of extraordinary that society

947
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:19,359
Speaker 2: had a part in putting that there. It doesn't have

948
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:22,200
Speaker 2: to it doesn't have to be that they We're gonna

949
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:25,280
Speaker 2: have to persevere if we're born.

950
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:28,720
Speaker 1: Like life is traumatic, any life, it's going to hit you. Yeah,

951
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:32,120
Speaker 1: you said, when you entered into prison, there was this depression,

952
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:34,239
Speaker 1: but you couldn't really sit in it because you had

953
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:36,360
Speaker 1: to survive this goes into like when did you like

954
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:39,680
Speaker 1: pick up a pen or a pencil, or at what

955
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:45,000
Speaker 1: point does that depression and survival turn into this is

956
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:48,239
Speaker 1: moving me into a place that I'm that there can

957
00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:50,280
Speaker 1: be light in, Like where does that lift?

958
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:53,359
Speaker 2: I'd say it's probably about six months in or so.

959
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:56,440
Speaker 2: And for the first six months or so, the bright

960
00:49:56,600 --> 00:49:58,960
Speaker 2: parts of my week, we're talking to Tear on the

961
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:02,040
Speaker 2: phone and they you know, in the afternoons and sometimes

962
00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:05,319
Speaker 2: in the morning and afternoon, and then we would visit

963
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:07,799
Speaker 2: on the weekends and outside of that, you know, I

964
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:09,759
Speaker 2: would do my job, but I would I would get

965
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:12,319
Speaker 2: back to the unit and God sleep as much as

966
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:14,480
Speaker 2: I possibly could, just to try to sleep the time away.

967
00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:16,719
Speaker 3: It's not a hard thing for him to do. Yes,

968
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:17,960
Speaker 3: I don't love sleeping.

969
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:21,000
Speaker 2: I'm an easy sleeper. And I think, you know, to

970
00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:24,000
Speaker 2: highlight one of the well, the whole community that I

971
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:25,799
Speaker 2: was there with, because I mean, like, you're not there

972
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:28,720
Speaker 2: in isolation. You're there with a community of other people

973
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:32,480
Speaker 2: going through the same or a similar experience. And a

974
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:34,719
Speaker 2: guy banged on my bunk one day and said, you

975
00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:37,480
Speaker 2: can't sleep your time away six And now they called

976
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:40,160
Speaker 2: me six nine. I'm around six ' nine, So six

977
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:41,480
Speaker 2: was like my nickname.

978
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:43,680
Speaker 3: In there, and so everybody has a nickname.

979
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:46,359
Speaker 2: Everybody has Yeah, nobody goes by they're there their birth name,

980
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 2: government name or whatever. But but so he banged on

981
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:50,880
Speaker 2: my bunk and he said, can't sleep that time away,

982
00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:54,239
Speaker 2: and like that was him kind of urging me to

983
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:57,480
Speaker 2: come out of the come out of myself, get involved

984
00:50:57,520 --> 00:50:59,920
Speaker 2: in the world, and quit feeling sorry for myself. Like

985
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:02,359
Speaker 2: that was his way of saying, like, this is where

986
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:04,240
Speaker 2: you're going to be for a while. You live here now,

987
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:06,839
Speaker 2: so come on out here and live. And I'm really

988
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:10,759
Speaker 2: grateful for that group of guys that you know consistently

989
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 2: did that because we had to do that for each

990
00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:14,080
Speaker 2: other all the time. There was always somebody who you

991
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:16,520
Speaker 2: had to pick up and be like, man, I know,

992
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:19,560
Speaker 2: I know this love one passed away, but man, hey,

993
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:22,040
Speaker 2: you know we still got to live. I know, your

994
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:25,000
Speaker 2: child's mother stopped bringing your child to visit you anymore,

995
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 2: but you know, hey, we got to live. Like there

996
00:51:26,719 --> 00:51:30,719
Speaker 2: there was consistently something happening that that you had to

997
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:33,520
Speaker 2: pick each other up. And that's something that I don't

998
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:37,200
Speaker 2: think people are aware of how much of that happens there,

999
00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:39,160
Speaker 2: which is real, and that was the time that I

1000
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:40,040
Speaker 2: kind of got moving.

1001
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:43,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's cool to hear that. I feel from from

1002
00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:45,840
Speaker 1: what I have heard, And again I'm getting most of

1003
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:49,799
Speaker 1: my information from the media or a movie. I have

1004
00:51:49,960 --> 00:51:53,200
Speaker 1: a family member that was in prison for I want

1005
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:56,319
Speaker 1: to say, like five years. I've already enlightened because he

1006
00:51:56,360 --> 00:51:57,960
Speaker 1: had a job. But I thought he chose the job,

1007
00:51:57,960 --> 00:51:59,560
Speaker 1: and I thought he did that because like I thought

1008
00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:04,520
Speaker 1: that was a pretty what she got for like being whatever obedient.

1009
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:07,480
Speaker 1: I didn't know that was something that he was forced

1010
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:09,880
Speaker 1: to do and that he didn't get to pick it. Anyway.

1011
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:12,840
Speaker 1: Most of the things you hear about are people getting

1012
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:16,040
Speaker 1: in fights, not bringing people together and lifting them up.

1013
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:19,600
Speaker 1: And so this is important because I mean I haven't

1014
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:23,520
Speaker 1: personally listened to any other podcasts like this, and so

1015
00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:26,680
Speaker 1: it's important, I think, to get that perspective of like, yeah,

1016
00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:29,920
Speaker 1: that might be happening, but those people are also the

1017
00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:32,759
Speaker 1: people that were able to lift me out of the

1018
00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 1: space that would have not been good for me.

1019
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:35,600
Speaker 2: Absolutely.

1020
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:37,759
Speaker 1: So then what did you do? Did you just say,

1021
00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:40,520
Speaker 1: like give me a pencil, like, well, you.

1022
00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:43,319
Speaker 2: Know, I did. I started doing some sketching and It

1023
00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:48,080
Speaker 2: wasn't like a big decision. It was more just I'm

1024
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:49,960
Speaker 2: just going to kind of sketch a little bit. And

1025
00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:53,080
Speaker 2: I had, like, I had some headphones, so I'd listen

1026
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:55,839
Speaker 2: to music and sketch. I'd go to the gym, play basketball,

1027
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:59,120
Speaker 2: lift weights, and then come back and sketch a little bit.

1028
00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:02,920
Speaker 2: And few of the other guys I was in the

1029
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:07,280
Speaker 2: unit with asked me to do birthday cards and portraits

1030
00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:10,279
Speaker 2: for them and stuff they could send home. So I

1031
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:13,480
Speaker 2: started kind of bartering my sketches for a little bit

1032
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:16,920
Speaker 2: extra food or toothpaste or soap or whatever the stuff

1033
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:19,239
Speaker 2: is that I needed. And then after i'd been doing

1034
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:21,799
Speaker 2: that for a while, I started just sketching more of

1035
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:24,680
Speaker 2: my environment because that's what I do anyway, Like my

1036
00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:27,319
Speaker 2: sketchbook is sitting here with me today. If I didn't

1037
00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:29,000
Speaker 2: have a microphone in my hand, I would have already

1038
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:31,879
Speaker 2: been sketching the room like that's just kind of that's

1039
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:35,320
Speaker 2: sort of my natural defaults. And so the sketches of

1040
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:37,880
Speaker 2: the environment turned it into the pieces that are in

1041
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:39,800
Speaker 2: the show now, because I ended up bringing some of

1042
00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:42,560
Speaker 2: those pieces home with me, And yeah, I think that's

1043
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:45,880
Speaker 2: how a lot of things work. It's not a decision

1044
00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:48,680
Speaker 2: that this thing is gonna be therapeutic or this thing

1045
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:51,480
Speaker 2: is gonna be a savior for my life. As much

1046
00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:54,320
Speaker 2: as you know, paying attention to these are the things

1047
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:56,360
Speaker 2: that feel good when I'm doing them. This is what

1048
00:53:56,400 --> 00:54:00,360
Speaker 2: I would do if money wasn't involved, or if stage

1049
00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:05,759
Speaker 2: wasn't involved, or whatever. And following those things, because yeah,

1050
00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:10,080
Speaker 2: there really wasn't a big light bulb moment. There was

1051
00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:13,360
Speaker 2: just paying attention to it feels good when I do

1052
00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:13,799
Speaker 2: this thing.

1053
00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:18,439
Speaker 1: Can you talk to us about because there's the two

1054
00:54:18,520 --> 00:54:20,279
Speaker 1: I'm pulling them up now so I can look at them.

1055
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:23,480
Speaker 1: Why I am speaking to you? Imagine these are the

1056
00:54:23,520 --> 00:54:27,399
Speaker 1: main pieces in your show, corrected and then the other one,

1057
00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:31,239
Speaker 1: the blackbird. I want you to describe what those pieces

1058
00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:33,239
Speaker 1: are to the people listening, since they can't see them,

1059
00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:36,040
Speaker 1: but you can see them if you want to. Can

1060
00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:38,839
Speaker 1: you describe those because that's kind of as you were

1061
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:41,000
Speaker 1: telling that story. I don't know if this is true,

1062
00:54:41,040 --> 00:54:44,239
Speaker 1: but I imagine that's you moving from one place to

1063
00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:46,080
Speaker 1: the other. What you just were saying, like he was like, hey,

1064
00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:48,480
Speaker 1: you can't sleep your time away And then one of

1065
00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:52,080
Speaker 1: these pictures of paintings is of you with is there

1066
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:53,120
Speaker 1: a sketchbook in your hand?

1067
00:54:53,239 --> 00:54:56,040
Speaker 2: Well, that's a letter in my hands, okay, so yeah, yeah,

1068
00:54:56,040 --> 00:54:58,719
Speaker 2: But it's a painting of me in the cell, and

1069
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:00,759
Speaker 2: that I did kind of a recreate of what my

1070
00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:03,720
Speaker 2: cell looked like, and I painted that in twenty twenty.

1071
00:55:03,840 --> 00:55:07,960
Speaker 2: There's a small sketch that I can share, but it's

1072
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:11,719
Speaker 2: also in the catalog and it's in the show. But

1073
00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:14,360
Speaker 2: there's a small sketch that actually painted while I was inside.

1074
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:18,319
Speaker 2: But this big piece here was a memory of what

1075
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:22,240
Speaker 2: my cell looked like. And as if someone was standing

1076
00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:25,279
Speaker 2: at the front door. The view is you looking in

1077
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:27,959
Speaker 2: at me while I'm sitting on my bunk in my cell,

1078
00:55:28,719 --> 00:55:30,680
Speaker 2: you know, reading a letter or just opening a letter,

1079
00:55:30,719 --> 00:55:32,719
Speaker 2: and then kind of looking up to see to see

1080
00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:36,480
Speaker 2: the person that's just walked in. And originally when I

1081
00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:39,080
Speaker 2: made it, my hope was just that people would feel

1082
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:41,759
Speaker 2: what it was like to be in a cell with

1083
00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:44,600
Speaker 2: someone who's incarcerated. I mean it's eight by eight feet,

1084
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:47,640
Speaker 2: so it's life size. The room is life size. I'm

1085
00:55:47,680 --> 00:55:51,400
Speaker 2: life size, and the painting and that's kind of what

1086
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:53,920
Speaker 2: I was What I was going for was people to

1087
00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:57,480
Speaker 2: feel like they were having that interaction and then corrected.

1088
00:55:58,120 --> 00:56:00,560
Speaker 2: Is me in my studio and I'm just kind of

1089
00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:04,200
Speaker 2: sitting on a recliner. I've got a small canvas in

1090
00:56:04,239 --> 00:56:07,120
Speaker 2: my hands and a paint brush, and I'm just sort

1091
00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:11,080
Speaker 2: of also looking, yeah, kind of looking out on whoever

1092
00:56:11,160 --> 00:56:12,600
Speaker 2: might be in my studio with me.

1093
00:56:12,920 --> 00:56:13,600
Speaker 1: That's at home.

1094
00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:14,479
Speaker 2: Now, that's at home.

1095
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:17,800
Speaker 1: Okay. Is that one also life size?

1096
00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:20,400
Speaker 2: No, that's a little smaller. That's about five or four feet.

1097
00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:22,840
Speaker 1: Okay, what's life size for me?

1098
00:56:24,920 --> 00:56:26,880
Speaker 2: Exactly? Exactly?

1099
00:56:27,840 --> 00:56:31,320
Speaker 1: So what's the relationship for you within those two Because

1100
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:35,320
Speaker 1: I looking at them feel two different things. I imagine

1101
00:56:35,360 --> 00:56:37,560
Speaker 1: that is part of the experience.

1102
00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:40,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I definitely feel two different experiences, even

1103
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:45,440
Speaker 2: though I feel like in some ways I was in

1104
00:56:45,480 --> 00:56:49,560
Speaker 2: a similar place by the time I wrote This Blackbird,

1105
00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:53,759
Speaker 2: like the end of This Black Bird reads, so for now,

1106
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:55,880
Speaker 2: I guess I'm free. My little black friend had visits

1107
00:56:55,880 --> 00:56:58,360
Speaker 2: me every morning every day, and that's the bird that

1108
00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:00,839
Speaker 2: would come to light in my window every day while

1109
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:03,759
Speaker 2: I was in prison, and so I had kind of

1110
00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:06,319
Speaker 2: gotten to the point where I felt like, even though

1111
00:57:06,320 --> 00:57:14,400
Speaker 2: I'm here, through artwork, through spirit, through my relationships, I'm free.

1112
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:18,680
Speaker 2: Even though I'm here now. That was internal, and I think,

1113
00:57:18,760 --> 00:57:21,640
Speaker 2: like correct it is in a little bit more of

1114
00:57:21,680 --> 00:57:25,240
Speaker 2: an external explanation of this is kind of where I

1115
00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:27,440
Speaker 2: knew I was going to be, or where I trusted

1116
00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:30,240
Speaker 2: that I would be, or or I kind of already was.

1117
00:57:30,360 --> 00:57:33,240
Speaker 2: It's like I was sort of living in that future

1118
00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:37,720
Speaker 2: of making art work and being home and being free.

1119
00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:42,240
Speaker 2: But it's a really challenging thing for people that are

1120
00:57:42,240 --> 00:57:46,880
Speaker 2: in because even when we believe that that's who we

1121
00:57:47,400 --> 00:57:49,960
Speaker 2: are and who we will be, there are not too

1122
00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:52,320
Speaker 2: many people that believe it until you're sitting there, you know,

1123
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:55,040
Speaker 2: like tears. One of the people that believed it, your parents,

1124
00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:58,320
Speaker 2: might your grandparents. There's this small core of people that

1125
00:57:58,360 --> 00:58:01,600
Speaker 2: are like, yeah, we know you really are, but until

1126
00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:04,960
Speaker 2: you're actually sitting there, it's not many. So so yeah,

1127
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:07,120
Speaker 2: So that's why those pieces are kind of in conversation.

1128
00:58:13,680 --> 00:58:16,560
Speaker 1: What I'm gathering from you, and we talked about this

1129
00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:20,040
Speaker 1: before before we started recording, is that you found two

1130
00:58:20,160 --> 00:58:22,440
Speaker 1: resources while you're in prison to move you through and

1131
00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:25,280
Speaker 1: to be able to give you hope, to see a

1132
00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:27,040
Speaker 1: future that you wanted to be a part of and

1133
00:58:27,080 --> 00:58:30,760
Speaker 1: that made you want to keep moving. You used those

1134
00:58:30,920 --> 00:58:35,160
Speaker 1: while you were in prison. You also use those when

1135
00:58:35,240 --> 00:58:37,360
Speaker 1: you were out of the place that you wanted to

1136
00:58:37,360 --> 00:58:39,880
Speaker 1: get out of. So can you speak to that because

1137
00:58:39,920 --> 00:58:42,320
Speaker 1: a lot of times I have this experience. I've done

1138
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:44,320
Speaker 1: this myself, and I've seen a lot in clients. We

1139
00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:47,200
Speaker 1: see it very often. And when Terry and I worked

1140
00:58:47,200 --> 00:58:52,240
Speaker 1: in treatment, where people whether it's meditation, art, yoga, walks,

1141
00:58:52,360 --> 00:58:59,000
Speaker 1: being in nature, horses, whatever it is, therapy, journaling, journaling, anything,

1142
00:58:59,520 --> 00:59:02,840
Speaker 1: whatever it is, they just stop because they no longer

1143
00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:04,480
Speaker 1: need those things anymore because they got them out of

1144
00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:07,760
Speaker 1: the woods. So talk to me about what kept you painting.

1145
00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:10,000
Speaker 2: I mean, it was pretty simple. It was how It's

1146
00:59:10,040 --> 00:59:12,760
Speaker 2: how it made me feel when I realized that it

1147
00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:16,040
Speaker 2: was a path to liberation while I was there, while

1148
00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:20,520
Speaker 2: I was in and I had spent enough time with

1149
00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:24,160
Speaker 2: like challenging things at home that to know that it

1150
00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:26,240
Speaker 2: wasn't over. You know, it's like you don't you don't

1151
00:59:26,240 --> 00:59:30,720
Speaker 2: get out of whatever the situation is, and in automatically

1152
00:59:30,760 --> 00:59:33,160
Speaker 2: everything is fixed. And I think that's something that anybody

1153
00:59:33,200 --> 00:59:35,800
Speaker 2: that whenever I talk to other you know, people that

1154
00:59:35,840 --> 00:59:38,760
Speaker 2: are coming out of incarceration, it's like stuff's gonna pop up,

1155
00:59:38,920 --> 00:59:41,080
Speaker 2: like you know, it's like there'll be there'll be a

1156
00:59:41,080 --> 00:59:44,680
Speaker 2: small window where everything just feels great, but things are

1157
00:59:44,680 --> 00:59:46,800
Speaker 2: gonna pop up. And so that's really why I kept

1158
00:59:46,800 --> 00:59:50,040
Speaker 2: on making work. I kept on making artwork because I

1159
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:53,120
Speaker 2: knew that it was for wantedy, that it was good

1160
00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:54,880
Speaker 2: for me, and that I loved doing it. I think

1161
00:59:54,920 --> 00:59:56,400
Speaker 2: a big part is that I love doing it. So

1162
00:59:56,440 --> 00:59:58,400
Speaker 2: it's like paying attention to how things make you feel

1163
00:59:59,080 --> 01:00:01,760
Speaker 2: is extremely important, and you know, I really enjoyed it,

1164
01:00:02,320 --> 01:00:06,880
Speaker 2: and I did have ambitions of doing it for a career,

1165
01:00:07,120 --> 01:00:09,920
Speaker 2: but I wasn't going to not do it just because

1166
01:00:09,920 --> 01:00:12,000
Speaker 2: it wasn't going to turn into a career. It was

1167
01:00:12,040 --> 01:00:13,720
Speaker 2: like whether it's going to turn into a career or not.

1168
01:00:14,200 --> 01:00:17,240
Speaker 2: I was going to make work pretty much daily because

1169
01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:19,040
Speaker 2: it made me feel good. There were things I needed

1170
01:00:19,040 --> 01:00:20,920
Speaker 2: to say, there were things I needed to get out,

1171
01:00:21,040 --> 01:00:26,000
Speaker 2: and as I made it consistently, it gradually turned into

1172
01:00:26,040 --> 01:00:28,480
Speaker 2: what I did for a living. But that was a

1173
01:00:28,560 --> 01:00:32,400
Speaker 2: number of years. That was probably twenty thirteen till really

1174
01:00:32,440 --> 01:00:35,840
Speaker 2: twenty twenty when art was the full time. But in

1175
01:00:35,880 --> 01:00:38,000
Speaker 2: twenty fifteen I started working in the gallery, so I

1176
01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:42,160
Speaker 2: was working amongst art. But yeah, there was definitely. My

1177
01:00:42,480 --> 01:00:46,000
Speaker 2: first job was a dishwasher. I was a server for

1178
01:00:46,040 --> 01:00:49,880
Speaker 2: a good while. I did car detailing, and all of

1179
01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:52,800
Speaker 2: the things that I were doing that I was doing

1180
01:00:52,920 --> 01:00:58,400
Speaker 2: for money were all really to maintain making artwork consistently

1181
01:00:58,920 --> 01:01:00,960
Speaker 2: and maintain the rest of my life. I mean this rent,

1182
01:01:01,240 --> 01:01:03,080
Speaker 2: you know, getting married, all the stuff that I wanted

1183
01:01:03,080 --> 01:01:05,320
Speaker 2: to do, But there was there was never kind of

1184
01:01:05,360 --> 01:01:08,880
Speaker 2: a release of that reality that I need to keep

1185
01:01:08,920 --> 01:01:12,960
Speaker 2: making artwork. And that's up until today. If I've got

1186
01:01:12,960 --> 01:01:16,000
Speaker 2: a good buddy who does a lot with investments in

1187
01:01:16,080 --> 01:01:19,000
Speaker 2: real estate and whatnot, and he said, I mean, but

1188
01:01:19,000 --> 01:01:20,560
Speaker 2: what if you just had a billion dollars, you think

1189
01:01:20,600 --> 01:01:22,480
Speaker 2: you would? I was like, yeah, I'd be painting tomorrow.

1190
01:01:23,040 --> 01:01:26,640
Speaker 2: I might be painting in a crazy huge space and

1191
01:01:26,760 --> 01:01:29,920
Speaker 2: doing real weird stuff like I wouldn't be thinking about

1192
01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:33,800
Speaker 2: a show. Yeah, but I'd be painting for sure. I

1193
01:01:33,840 --> 01:01:37,240
Speaker 2: don't have any doubt. And so see, I think that's

1194
01:01:37,040 --> 01:01:40,000
Speaker 2: that's kind of the thing, is like figuring out the

1195
01:01:40,120 --> 01:01:42,960
Speaker 2: thing that if you really enjoy doing something and it

1196
01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:48,240
Speaker 2: helps get you through anything, then then absolutely keep doing

1197
01:01:48,280 --> 01:01:50,400
Speaker 2: it and you'll be paid. You'll be paid in full,

1198
01:01:51,040 --> 01:01:55,240
Speaker 2: and whether it's emotionally, spiritually, financially, you will be paid

1199
01:01:55,240 --> 01:01:57,360
Speaker 2: if you continue to do what you love doing.

1200
01:01:57,840 --> 01:02:03,560
Speaker 1: What would you say to buddy who has a desire

1201
01:02:03,600 --> 01:02:06,040
Speaker 1: to do something like that, whether it's painting or I

1202
01:02:06,080 --> 01:02:11,840
Speaker 1: don't know, I want to open a soap store, like whatever.

1203
01:02:11,920 --> 01:02:14,880
Speaker 1: It is, Like somebody has a dream, what would you

1204
01:02:14,920 --> 01:02:18,200
Speaker 1: say to somebody who has that immediate thought of like, well,

1205
01:02:18,760 --> 01:02:20,040
Speaker 1: that's too harder, I can't.

1206
01:02:20,760 --> 01:02:22,240
Speaker 2: That's a part of it, you know, that's that's a

1207
01:02:22,280 --> 01:02:24,480
Speaker 2: part of a dream, you know, if it was going

1208
01:02:24,520 --> 01:02:27,720
Speaker 2: to the gas station and then everybody yeah, yeah, So,

1209
01:02:27,840 --> 01:02:30,280
Speaker 2: I mean I have it every single time I do anything.

1210
01:02:30,520 --> 01:02:33,360
Speaker 2: Like when I was about to have an exhibit about

1211
01:02:33,360 --> 01:02:37,040
Speaker 2: my fifteen year prison sent It's like my first thought was, damn, man,

1212
01:02:37,080 --> 01:02:39,560
Speaker 2: that's a lot do I really want? You know, it's

1213
01:02:39,560 --> 01:02:43,240
Speaker 2: a lot of pieces, they're way bigger. Who's gonna buy

1214
01:02:43,360 --> 01:02:45,600
Speaker 2: I mean, who's gonna I painted an eight by eight

1215
01:02:45,640 --> 01:02:48,520
Speaker 2: foot painting of me in a prison cell. It's like

1216
01:02:49,320 --> 01:02:51,520
Speaker 2: I obviously wasn't thinking about who's gonna buy this? Or

1217
01:02:51,560 --> 01:02:55,080
Speaker 2: is it? You know? It's like so, but when when

1218
01:02:55,120 --> 01:02:57,720
Speaker 2: the seed is planted, like if it lights you up,

1219
01:02:57,840 --> 01:03:02,520
Speaker 2: you know, then go and start put those incremental steps,

1220
01:03:02,560 --> 01:03:04,280
Speaker 2: like if it's a soap store.

1221
01:03:04,640 --> 01:03:06,840
Speaker 1: You know good, I think that's good.

1222
01:03:06,880 --> 01:03:09,200
Speaker 2: I mean, that's a good thing. It's like, you know, produce,

1223
01:03:09,480 --> 01:03:12,640
Speaker 2: produce some soap, put it online, sell to friends and family,

1224
01:03:12,840 --> 01:03:16,440
Speaker 2: and let it grow until it's you know, until it

1225
01:03:16,520 --> 01:03:19,560
Speaker 2: is what and and don't stop doing it because it

1226
01:03:19,600 --> 01:03:22,160
Speaker 2: doesn't take off in the time that you think it

1227
01:03:22,160 --> 01:03:24,720
Speaker 2: should take off. And you know, my I've got hundreds

1228
01:03:24,760 --> 01:03:27,880
Speaker 2: of paintings in my house and people don't. People see

1229
01:03:27,880 --> 01:03:29,720
Speaker 2: the work in the show and they're like, oh, look,

1230
01:03:29,720 --> 01:03:32,240
Speaker 2: you sold a lot of artwork. And it's like, I've

1231
01:03:32,240 --> 01:03:35,040
Speaker 2: got a lot of artwork that's never that hasn't sold

1232
01:03:35,280 --> 01:03:37,440
Speaker 2: at this point. You know it might sell later, but

1233
01:03:37,600 --> 01:03:40,320
Speaker 2: it may not. And continue to do whatever the thing

1234
01:03:40,480 --> 01:03:46,040
Speaker 2: is regardless of the immediate payoff. Pretty much guarantees the payoff.

1235
01:03:46,200 --> 01:03:49,640
Speaker 2: It's like, yeah, that's it's it's it's a it's kind

1236
01:03:49,640 --> 01:03:52,680
Speaker 2: of a paradoxical thing, like we're not chasing any of

1237
01:03:52,760 --> 01:03:56,600
Speaker 2: it to get to any specific destination. We're doing it

1238
01:03:56,640 --> 01:04:00,440
Speaker 2: because you decided to do it, and something up in

1239
01:04:00,480 --> 01:04:04,160
Speaker 2: you about making this thing, and you know, if you

1240
01:04:04,200 --> 01:04:06,200
Speaker 2: stay true to that, you're going to find the reward,

1241
01:04:06,240 --> 01:04:08,840
Speaker 2: and the reward may not even be You might have

1242
01:04:08,920 --> 01:04:12,600
Speaker 2: started the soap store and ended up with a hygienic

1243
01:04:12,640 --> 01:04:14,720
Speaker 2: yoga studio or something. It's like you never know what,

1244
01:04:14,880 --> 01:04:17,560
Speaker 2: Like the tern may not even be the thing that

1245
01:04:17,640 --> 01:04:19,760
Speaker 2: you set out for it to do. But if you

1246
01:04:19,800 --> 01:04:21,760
Speaker 2: don't follow that theory, you'll never You'll never know.

1247
01:04:22,440 --> 01:04:25,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, which goes back into you saying like I paid

1248
01:04:25,120 --> 01:04:27,120
Speaker 1: attention to what I was feeling when I was doing it,

1249
01:04:27,160 --> 01:04:30,880
Speaker 1: Like I kept painting because it kept feeling good for sure. Well,

1250
01:04:30,960 --> 01:04:32,520
Speaker 1: I love that, And I think there's a I mean,

1251
01:04:33,240 --> 01:04:36,000
Speaker 1: I'm thinking of their specific person that was asking me

1252
01:04:36,080 --> 01:04:39,120
Speaker 1: about wanted to take this risk with a career. But

1253
01:04:39,360 --> 01:04:42,480
Speaker 1: if I go and take that risk, then what's going

1254
01:04:42,520 --> 01:04:45,959
Speaker 1: to happen over here? And kind of similar You don't

1255
01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:48,520
Speaker 1: have to like I think the saying is like throw

1256
01:04:48,520 --> 01:04:50,240
Speaker 1: the baby out with the bathwater. You don't have to

1257
01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:52,440
Speaker 1: like not have a job while you're working on this thing,

1258
01:04:52,520 --> 01:04:54,040
Speaker 1: or you don't have to like not It doesn't have

1259
01:04:54,080 --> 01:04:55,880
Speaker 1: to be all or nothing. And it's what you're saying

1260
01:04:55,960 --> 01:04:57,280
Speaker 1: is I did what I needed to do to be

1261
01:04:57,320 --> 01:04:59,640
Speaker 1: able to keep painting and then eventually painting became the

1262
01:04:59,680 --> 01:05:01,240
Speaker 1: thing I was doing.

1263
01:05:01,520 --> 01:05:03,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then there may be that time where you

1264
01:05:03,360 --> 01:05:05,200
Speaker 2: have to trust where it's like you've been at this

1265
01:05:05,360 --> 01:05:08,480
Speaker 2: job for five years and you've saved some money and

1266
01:05:08,960 --> 01:05:11,120
Speaker 2: you decide I'm going to leave and trust the painting's

1267
01:05:11,200 --> 01:05:14,560
Speaker 2: gonna because there will be that time at some point

1268
01:05:14,600 --> 01:05:18,400
Speaker 2: where it's like I really can't keep on chasing both things.

1269
01:05:18,720 --> 01:05:22,320
Speaker 2: So I do think that the decision can come. I

1270
01:05:22,360 --> 01:05:25,919
Speaker 2: personally wouldn't have gotten out and said I'm a full

1271
01:05:25,960 --> 01:05:27,720
Speaker 2: time artist from the day that I get out. No,

1272
01:05:27,880 --> 01:05:29,800
Speaker 2: I got out and got a job, you know, like that,

1273
01:05:30,000 --> 01:05:32,360
Speaker 2: that's kind of what I had to do for Yeah,

1274
01:05:32,400 --> 01:05:34,440
Speaker 2: for the period of time that I had to do it,

1275
01:05:34,480 --> 01:05:37,040
Speaker 2: and when it was time that when it was time

1276
01:05:37,120 --> 01:05:39,400
Speaker 2: to shift, that was really clear, you know.

1277
01:05:39,480 --> 01:05:43,640
Speaker 1: Like so I think I kind of brushed over this

1278
01:05:43,680 --> 01:05:45,040
Speaker 1: and I kind of want to go back to it.

1279
01:05:45,160 --> 01:05:47,360
Speaker 1: Just in the way of closing a lot of this,

1280
01:05:48,440 --> 01:05:49,960
Speaker 1: I want to know from both of you because we

1281
01:05:50,040 --> 01:05:52,960
Speaker 1: talked about what it was like when you met, and

1282
01:05:53,000 --> 01:05:55,840
Speaker 1: then also what it was like when you then had

1283
01:05:55,840 --> 01:05:58,800
Speaker 1: to go into prison, What was it like when you

1284
01:05:59,080 --> 01:06:01,760
Speaker 1: got out on parole, and then also what was it

1285
01:06:01,840 --> 01:06:05,840
Speaker 1: like on April eleventh. Both of those things sound like different,

1286
01:06:05,960 --> 01:06:08,160
Speaker 1: totally different experiences, but also very similar.

1287
01:06:08,200 --> 01:06:12,600
Speaker 3: So coming home so picking him up was I mean,

1288
01:06:13,040 --> 01:06:17,760
Speaker 3: like a very liberating feeling. It was just like a

1289
01:06:17,920 --> 01:06:24,000
Speaker 3: huge release, relief, outbreath, just feeling like, oh, thank god,

1290
01:06:24,200 --> 01:06:27,080
Speaker 3: we're finally done with that part, because it got really hard,

1291
01:06:27,200 --> 01:06:31,000
Speaker 3: especially like in the last year. He had a parole

1292
01:06:31,080 --> 01:06:35,360
Speaker 3: opportunity two years in that got denied and so we

1293
01:06:35,400 --> 01:06:38,680
Speaker 3: had to just say, buckle down, wait till the next one,

1294
01:06:38,840 --> 01:06:41,040
Speaker 3: do it, you know, do it again. So it was

1295
01:06:41,080 --> 01:06:45,400
Speaker 3: even sweeter, I think, having had that denial and just

1296
01:06:45,640 --> 01:06:48,320
Speaker 3: you know, then it's beginning life and trying to adjust

1297
01:06:48,400 --> 01:06:53,600
Speaker 3: and enjoying and struggling and figuring out and basking and

1298
01:06:53,640 --> 01:06:57,120
Speaker 3: all the all the freedoms that you haven't had, and

1299
01:06:57,920 --> 01:07:01,880
Speaker 3: then life is just life and you do that. We

1300
01:07:01,960 --> 01:07:05,280
Speaker 3: did that. So he came home in twenty thirteen, and

1301
01:07:05,560 --> 01:07:09,960
Speaker 3: he got this April eleventh final no more parole, no

1302
01:07:10,080 --> 01:07:13,640
Speaker 3: more sentence ended in April twenty twenty three, So that's

1303
01:07:13,680 --> 01:07:16,120
Speaker 3: the ten years of us living in the sort of

1304
01:07:16,160 --> 01:07:20,680
Speaker 3: in between on the other side of prison and not

1305
01:07:20,880 --> 01:07:24,560
Speaker 3: done with the sentence, which also really ultimately means there

1306
01:07:24,560 --> 01:07:26,840
Speaker 3: are a lot of rules he has to follow, things

1307
01:07:26,880 --> 01:07:29,800
Speaker 3: he has to do, and it means that at any moment,

1308
01:07:31,120 --> 01:07:33,680
Speaker 3: something could happen and he could go and have to

1309
01:07:33,720 --> 01:07:37,920
Speaker 3: finish that sentence. On the inside. He's still property of

1310
01:07:37,960 --> 01:07:42,280
Speaker 3: the Department of Corrections. On parole. You're serving your sentence

1311
01:07:42,320 --> 01:07:47,160
Speaker 3: on parole rather than in prison. So that's just a

1312
01:07:47,240 --> 01:07:50,200
Speaker 3: thing that I think doesn't always have the same concept

1313
01:07:50,240 --> 01:07:52,720
Speaker 3: because he's just out here seemingly living life like the

1314
01:07:52,760 --> 01:07:55,720
Speaker 3: rest of us. So we're living in that in between

1315
01:07:55,840 --> 01:07:59,560
Speaker 3: for ten years, hoping that doesn't happen, and living our

1316
01:07:59,560 --> 01:08:03,800
Speaker 3: lives as normal otherwise, and you know, that becomes a

1317
01:08:03,840 --> 01:08:08,440
Speaker 3: whole skill set in itself. But that is important to

1318
01:08:08,440 --> 01:08:11,880
Speaker 3: say because I think it really does justice to the

1319
01:08:11,960 --> 01:08:14,560
Speaker 3: day of April eleventh, when you don't have to do

1320
01:08:14,880 --> 01:08:19,400
Speaker 3: any of that anymore. We don't have to consider that

1321
01:08:20,479 --> 01:08:23,960
Speaker 3: there's this sentence hanging over his head that he still

1322
01:08:24,000 --> 01:08:26,679
Speaker 3: has to abide by, he still has to answer to

1323
01:08:26,360 --> 01:08:29,040
Speaker 3: the state for or they may be able to put

1324
01:08:29,120 --> 01:08:31,760
Speaker 3: him back in a jail cell to finish it. That

1325
01:08:31,880 --> 01:08:35,760
Speaker 3: all is lifted for us on April eleventh, and I

1326
01:08:35,800 --> 01:08:41,559
Speaker 3: think it's been not on that day process emotionally and mentally,

1327
01:08:41,760 --> 01:08:44,360
Speaker 3: it kind of experiencing that it's been leading up to

1328
01:08:44,400 --> 01:08:48,000
Speaker 3: it for months, leading up to it, feeling it, moving

1329
01:08:48,040 --> 01:08:52,639
Speaker 3: through it, and it's still going to be an evolving

1330
01:08:52,720 --> 01:08:57,160
Speaker 3: process of not quite knowing how to wrap my head

1331
01:08:57,160 --> 01:09:02,760
Speaker 3: around not being in that context of life anymore. I'm

1332
01:09:02,800 --> 01:09:04,719
Speaker 3: still kind of like, I don't know what that feels

1333
01:09:04,760 --> 01:09:07,880
Speaker 3: like yet. It's definitely like we've had little moments of

1334
01:09:07,920 --> 01:09:12,600
Speaker 3: like wow, like wow, we're here. Wow, we've made it,

1335
01:09:12,720 --> 01:09:16,719
Speaker 3: similar to the day you're out relief, out breath, and

1336
01:09:16,800 --> 01:09:19,320
Speaker 3: it's just something that I think takes time to really

1337
01:09:20,400 --> 01:09:23,880
Speaker 3: adapt into a new reality that you were in for

1338
01:09:23,920 --> 01:09:26,800
Speaker 3: so long. So it feels in a lot of ways

1339
01:09:26,800 --> 01:09:29,720
Speaker 3: for me, like more to be revealed on what this

1340
01:09:29,960 --> 01:09:31,400
Speaker 3: life feels like for us.

1341
01:09:31,520 --> 01:09:34,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, because it's been ten days. Okay, what about you?

1342
01:09:35,160 --> 01:09:36,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say the same. I think the only

1343
01:09:36,960 --> 01:09:39,439
Speaker 2: thing that I would add to that was the day

1344
01:09:39,439 --> 01:09:42,519
Speaker 2: that I got home, my grandmother passed away and Tarah

1345
01:09:42,560 --> 01:09:44,400
Speaker 2: picked me up, and so those were kind of the

1346
01:09:44,439 --> 01:09:46,479
Speaker 2: first thing. The first thing that Sarah told me was

1347
01:09:46,640 --> 01:09:48,960
Speaker 2: she didn't make it. And so so me and my

1348
01:09:49,040 --> 01:09:52,599
Speaker 2: grandmother really really close and have you know, she lives

1349
01:09:52,600 --> 01:09:54,360
Speaker 2: in the house with me, my whole life, my whole youth,

1350
01:09:54,439 --> 01:09:57,559
Speaker 2: my mom's side being from Trinidad, my grandmother when they

1351
01:09:57,840 --> 01:10:00,640
Speaker 2: migrated it over and she brought my mom. Once my

1352
01:10:00,680 --> 01:10:03,639
Speaker 2: mom was an adult, my grandmother kind of roles reversed.

1353
01:10:03,720 --> 01:10:06,679
Speaker 2: My grandmother lived with my mom and my dad instead

1354
01:10:06,680 --> 01:10:09,040
Speaker 2: of my mom living with her of course. So I mean,

1355
01:10:09,040 --> 01:10:11,800
Speaker 2: so I think that kind of sort of framed the

1356
01:10:11,840 --> 01:10:14,880
Speaker 2: beginning in a lot of ways. Even though I was

1357
01:10:14,960 --> 01:10:17,839
Speaker 2: home and we were together, we also had this really

1358
01:10:18,960 --> 01:10:23,439
Speaker 2: hard thing to face immediately, and all of the just

1359
01:10:23,479 --> 01:10:26,519
Speaker 2: the challenges and guilt and of whatnot of not being

1360
01:10:26,560 --> 01:10:32,040
Speaker 2: around for someone's last days years, and then the April

1361
01:10:32,080 --> 01:10:34,840
Speaker 2: eleventh side of it has been, I mean, it's been

1362
01:10:34,880 --> 01:10:38,400
Speaker 2: pretty incredible. It's also been Yeah, it's been something that

1363
01:10:38,400 --> 01:10:40,439
Speaker 2: we've been able to celebrate together. I mean, I don't

1364
01:10:40,479 --> 01:10:43,800
Speaker 2: think that there's I mean, I think as challenging as

1365
01:10:43,840 --> 01:10:46,720
Speaker 2: it has been for you know, on my side of

1366
01:10:46,760 --> 01:10:50,559
Speaker 2: it to push through this, I think it is probably

1367
01:10:50,600 --> 01:10:54,200
Speaker 2: more challenging for two people to get through what we've

1368
01:10:54,240 --> 01:10:59,599
Speaker 2: gotten through together and actually been through this entire sentence together.

1369
01:10:59,760 --> 01:11:03,320
Speaker 2: So that's been really special. And I think, just to

1370
01:11:03,360 --> 01:11:07,920
Speaker 2: echo what Tara said, is. It definitely is not linear.

1371
01:11:08,280 --> 01:11:11,160
Speaker 2: And I think the best example, even though it's not

1372
01:11:11,200 --> 01:11:14,840
Speaker 2: like a superhumanizing example, is if something's been in a

1373
01:11:14,880 --> 01:11:19,360
Speaker 2: box for a long long time, how long after the

1374
01:11:19,400 --> 01:11:21,479
Speaker 2: box is removed does the thing know it's out of

1375
01:11:21,520 --> 01:11:23,880
Speaker 2: the box. And so I think that's kind of been

1376
01:11:23,920 --> 01:11:28,200
Speaker 2: my experience with it. I mean, I'm not like at

1377
01:11:28,240 --> 01:11:32,400
Speaker 2: ease about law enforcement. I'm not at ease about my

1378
01:11:32,920 --> 01:11:36,719
Speaker 2: ability to move around the world truly freely. I don't

1379
01:11:36,720 --> 01:11:39,360
Speaker 2: have enough evidence of that side of it yet. When

1380
01:11:39,960 --> 01:11:42,799
Speaker 2: I was twenty eight when this thing started, I'm forty two. Now,

1381
01:11:43,240 --> 01:11:47,240
Speaker 2: that's a big chunk of adulthood to not feel free.

1382
01:11:47,400 --> 01:11:51,439
Speaker 2: So yeah, so I don't think feeling free is that

1383
01:11:51,680 --> 01:11:55,240
Speaker 2: close in the legal system since. But as far as

1384
01:11:55,240 --> 01:11:57,760
Speaker 2: like the artwork and the things that have shown up

1385
01:11:58,000 --> 01:12:01,960
Speaker 2: just through life that already kind of found that freedom before,

1386
01:12:02,240 --> 01:12:05,640
Speaker 2: I think that's continuing to grow and I trust that

1387
01:12:05,720 --> 01:12:07,040
Speaker 2: the rest will follow.

1388
01:12:07,439 --> 01:12:10,480
Speaker 3: I would only add as as like on the emotional

1389
01:12:10,520 --> 01:12:13,000
Speaker 3: side of things, because I'm with therapists and I'm always

1390
01:12:13,000 --> 01:12:16,960
Speaker 3: thinking about that, I've realized that in this this time,

1391
01:12:17,040 --> 01:12:21,559
Speaker 3: like approaching and experiencing the ending of the sentence for me,

1392
01:12:21,680 --> 01:12:23,920
Speaker 3: in a lot of ways. It's felt actually like a

1393
01:12:23,920 --> 01:12:28,880
Speaker 3: lot of grieving has come up, and grieving the time

1394
01:12:28,920 --> 01:12:31,559
Speaker 3: that he was gone in a way that I haven't

1395
01:12:32,280 --> 01:12:36,240
Speaker 3: grieving all of the restraints and the losses and the

1396
01:12:36,400 --> 01:12:39,840
Speaker 3: challenges of what this whole sentence has meant. Sentence has

1397
01:12:39,880 --> 01:12:43,920
Speaker 3: meant for him and for both of us, And you know,

1398
01:12:44,000 --> 01:12:47,960
Speaker 3: I just was really aware of the true thing of

1399
01:12:48,040 --> 01:12:50,599
Speaker 3: you know, I'll talk about this with clients a lot,

1400
01:12:50,640 --> 01:12:52,960
Speaker 3: that you can't really process, you can't process the trauma

1401
01:12:53,000 --> 01:12:57,599
Speaker 3: while you're still in it, and that this moment has

1402
01:12:57,680 --> 01:13:00,800
Speaker 3: reflected that back to me in a very real way

1403
01:13:00,920 --> 01:13:03,760
Speaker 3: that there's a lot of feelings I haven't yet been

1404
01:13:03,840 --> 01:13:07,519
Speaker 3: able to feel literally because I've still had to be

1405
01:13:07,600 --> 01:13:11,599
Speaker 3: surviving this thing. So grieving has been a big part

1406
01:13:11,800 --> 01:13:16,280
Speaker 3: of what approaching the end has meant, which feels kind

1407
01:13:16,320 --> 01:13:19,040
Speaker 3: of counterintuitive. It feels like it would be celebratory, and

1408
01:13:19,400 --> 01:13:23,080
Speaker 3: we definitely have made space for those moments and invite

1409
01:13:23,080 --> 01:13:26,200
Speaker 3: that in and just for me on it, like, in

1410
01:13:26,200 --> 01:13:30,080
Speaker 3: a very honest way, it feels important to name that that, yeah,

1411
01:13:30,120 --> 01:13:32,960
Speaker 3: it actually didn't come with just a big old like yay.

1412
01:13:33,680 --> 01:13:36,000
Speaker 3: It has come with a lot of things that have

1413
01:13:36,240 --> 01:13:39,120
Speaker 3: been sitting around kind of waiting for the moment to

1414
01:13:39,200 --> 01:13:42,719
Speaker 3: feel like they can actually let themselves come out, because

1415
01:13:42,960 --> 01:13:46,360
Speaker 3: my body is like, now we're really done, so all right,

1416
01:13:46,479 --> 01:13:48,559
Speaker 3: let's let's feel what this felt like.

1417
01:13:49,120 --> 01:13:51,120
Speaker 1: Two things stuck out to me when you said I

1418
01:13:51,120 --> 01:13:52,840
Speaker 1: think it was you Andmr that said twenty eight. I

1419
01:13:52,840 --> 01:13:55,000
Speaker 1: sawed this when I was twenty eight. I don't think

1420
01:13:55,000 --> 01:13:57,760
Speaker 1: I've thought about that this whole time, because you're not

1421
01:13:57,800 --> 01:14:00,120
Speaker 1: sitting here as a twenty eight year old like you

1422
01:14:00,120 --> 01:14:02,160
Speaker 1: were twenty eight when you were in that cell and

1423
01:14:02,200 --> 01:14:06,880
Speaker 1: that guy said you can't sleep, your your time away,

1424
01:14:07,000 --> 01:14:10,439
Speaker 1: and then pairing that with you saying like, we're not

1425
01:14:10,479 --> 01:14:13,760
Speaker 1: saying yay, Well yeah, that makes sense now hearing you

1426
01:14:13,800 --> 01:14:16,680
Speaker 1: say that that it's not like yay, this thing is.

1427
01:14:17,200 --> 01:14:21,080
Speaker 1: We're not we're celebrating maybe that I that this is over,

1428
01:14:21,160 --> 01:14:24,519
Speaker 1: but there's also as I celebrate that, there's all of

1429
01:14:24,520 --> 01:14:27,599
Speaker 1: these feelings around the fact that that even was a

1430
01:14:27,600 --> 01:14:30,680
Speaker 1: thing and that happened, Especially because I'm now thinking of

1431
01:14:30,720 --> 01:14:32,519
Speaker 1: you as a twenty eight year old. I'm not that

1432
01:14:32,720 --> 01:14:35,200
Speaker 1: much older than that, but it still feels like a child.

1433
01:14:35,400 --> 01:14:38,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I did twenty two and now I'm thirty five.

1434
01:14:38,600 --> 01:14:40,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, you look twenty eight.

1435
01:14:40,760 --> 01:14:49,920
Speaker 1: You know I look twenty eight or two looks twenty eight. Okay, well,

1436
01:14:49,960 --> 01:14:52,160
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you for being so open, both of you,

1437
01:14:52,680 --> 01:14:54,680
Speaker 1: and we already know Tara doesn't want to way to

1438
01:14:54,680 --> 01:14:59,040
Speaker 1: find her, but you do. So where can people find

1439
01:14:59,080 --> 01:15:03,559
Speaker 1: you your art, whether they're in Nashville or not.

1440
01:15:04,120 --> 01:15:07,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, this exhibit is at Elephant Gallery and I

1441
01:15:07,240 --> 01:15:09,679
Speaker 2: will share a link to the full catalog and that's

1442
01:15:09,680 --> 01:15:12,519
Speaker 2: got the price list and all the images. And also

1443
01:15:12,560 --> 01:15:16,360
Speaker 2: Omaribooker dot com is my website and Amari Booker at

1444
01:15:16,360 --> 01:15:19,840
Speaker 2: Instagram's kind of the easiest way to just to keep

1445
01:15:19,920 --> 01:15:21,960
Speaker 2: up with what's going on and shoot me a message.

1446
01:15:22,000 --> 01:15:24,680
Speaker 2: I'm in Nashville for a good bit of a year

1447
01:15:24,680 --> 01:15:26,720
Speaker 2: and I'm in LA for about two or three months

1448
01:15:26,760 --> 01:15:29,880
Speaker 2: out of the year also, so so yeah, those are

1449
01:15:29,960 --> 01:15:32,120
Speaker 2: kinds of things that are going on, but please, yeah,

1450
01:15:32,200 --> 01:15:34,320
Speaker 2: reach out. Yeah we got art for you.

1451
01:15:34,439 --> 01:15:36,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll put all of that in the show notes.

1452
01:15:36,120 --> 01:15:38,160
Speaker 1: We'll have the links to everything, so whether you're here

1453
01:15:38,520 --> 01:15:41,559
Speaker 1: or not, you can see because I think also, I'm

1454
01:15:41,600 --> 01:15:43,120
Speaker 1: so glad I was able to I wish it could

1455
01:15:43,120 --> 01:15:45,720
Speaker 1: have actually gone today, but it was. It makes such

1456
01:15:45,720 --> 01:15:49,080
Speaker 1: a different scene this as you're talking about it, because,

1457
01:15:49,560 --> 01:15:52,360
Speaker 1: like you said, this is literally your story in art.

1458
01:15:52,800 --> 01:15:54,040
Speaker 1: Your art for sure.