1 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: Broadcasting live from the Abraham Lincoln Radio Studio of the 2 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:18,160 Speaker 1: George Washington Broadcast Center. Jack Armstrong, Joe, Getty. 3 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 2: Arm Strong and Jettie and he Armstrong and Getty Strong. 4 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 2: And so I got a couple of stories. One of 5 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 2: them I told before, and I got to be vague 6 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:42,239 Speaker 2: about them because they're They're real life stories people have 7 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 2: told me, and I don't want them to get in 8 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 2: trouble for you know, passing along more or less confidential information. 9 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:51,200 Speaker 2: But I told the story a while back about somebody 10 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 2: who was talking to a group of working class assault 11 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 2: of the Earth gentlemen, the last kind of dudes that 12 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 2: you'd ever think that this would be a thing for. 13 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 2: I'm not talking about like some Berkeley androgynous poetry majors. 14 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 2: I'm talking about like work in class, work with their 15 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:18,680 Speaker 2: hands guys, blue collar guys, talking about how much they 16 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 2: enjoyed the companionship of the female chatbots when they came 17 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:25,679 Speaker 2: home from you know, a long day in the field 18 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 2: at night, and how you know they listen to them 19 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 2: and understand them and they look forward to it all 20 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:33,480 Speaker 2: day long, and that sort of thing. And I thought, wow, 21 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:37,480 Speaker 2: I mean, if that crowd can fall under the sway 22 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 2: of this in its current form, mankind is doomed. No, 23 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 2: I've never tried it, but I almost don't want to 24 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 2: because I have some concern but with like a lot 25 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 2: of other things that I've dismissed and joked about, and 26 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 2: find it more appealing than I'd like it to be. 27 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 3: You know, I would hope that your oogie factor would 28 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 3: overcome that temptation, but your illustration of the sort of 29 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 3: fellows who r like it is troubling. 30 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 2: Although I'm luckily I'm not. I don't feel trapped in 31 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:20,639 Speaker 2: a lonely world like a lot of people do. And 32 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:23,920 Speaker 2: if you feel like it's you know, you're lonely and 33 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 2: it's really difficult out there to meet people and everything 34 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 2: like that, then this answer comes along. It must feel 35 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 2: good to you. So a slightly different version of this, 36 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 2: and also a real life story a mom was telling 37 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 2: me the other day, and it's a troubling story from 38 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 2: the beginning, as the daughter involved as twelve, but let's 39 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 2: go with thirteen because it's they're close enough to thirteen 40 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 2: but still are actually twelve had ended up in a 41 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:55,639 Speaker 2: situation by being in a friend's house or whatever. This 42 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 2: seventeen year old boy was hitting on this young girl 43 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 2: in a way that they wouldn't if they weren't a creep, 44 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 2: but they were, and apparently they are a very handsome, 45 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 2: smooth talking dude, so really got the attention of this 46 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:09,080 Speaker 2: quite young girl. 47 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:10,079 Speaker 3: Wow. 48 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:18,960 Speaker 2: Anyway, mom gets contacted by the school saying, hey, we 49 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 2: are taking a look at your kid's search history and 50 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 2: computer use because maybe you know this, maybe you don't. 51 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 2: I mean, I've had kids in the public school. They 52 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:34,519 Speaker 2: allow you to use the Chrome book or you buy 53 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 2: your own Chromebook, but you have to be on the 54 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 2: school system and they have the right to check and 55 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 2: see what stuff you're doing on that computer, which I'm 56 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 2: fine with, but they have a variety of protection programs 57 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 2: that you know, if you're eighth grade boys looking at 58 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 2: porn on the Chromebook, the school will contact you and say, hey, 59 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 2: your kid's using a Chromebook for porn, and then you know, 60 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 2: you talk to them or step in or do whatever, 61 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 2: and then if you continue doing it, there's penalties down 62 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 2: the road. 63 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 3: But he's in many schools. If you say I'm I 64 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 3: want to be transgender, then they won't tell your parents. 65 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 2: Excellent point. Wow, that is really good. Caught your thirteen 66 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 2: year old looking at naked women. Oh no, what a shock. 67 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:24,040 Speaker 2: Your thirteen year old wants to become a woman. Keep 68 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,599 Speaker 2: it on the down low, not a mom and dad's business. Wow, 69 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 2: good point. But so anyway, this mom got contacted by 70 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:35,480 Speaker 2: the school. Hey, you, your twelve year old daughter's computer 71 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 2: was showing them on this site talking to an advice 72 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:47,120 Speaker 2: chat bot, sex chat bot. I guess it's particularly in 73 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:50,480 Speaker 2: the area of sex advice. That twelve year old and mom. 74 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:54,840 Speaker 2: I don't remember from reading the back and forth or 75 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:58,719 Speaker 2: asking the kid now, but either way found out the 76 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 2: kid was regularly going on this sex chat bot to 77 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 2: get advice on how to please a seventeen year old boy, 78 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 2: and really like got addicted and it'd be too much, 79 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 2: but like really kind of obsessed with, you know, as 80 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 2: soon as you get home from school, checking in with 81 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:20,280 Speaker 2: the chat bot and see what the latest advice is 82 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 2: on how to please a seventeen year old boy. And 83 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 2: it just became a like hard to break cycle. 84 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 3: Wow. 85 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 2: Wow, Now if there had been, I can't imagine it 86 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:39,480 Speaker 2: when I was like thirteen, fourteen years old. You know, 87 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 2: when you're a young man starting to understand things, your 88 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 2: body is capable of doing or certain urges that can 89 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 2: be enjoyed in a certain way. And there had been 90 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 2: some sort of chatbot I could talk to that would 91 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 2: tell me sexy stories or do whatever. Oh my god, 92 00:05:57,720 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 2: I would have never been I don't know how you 93 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 2: got me out of my room, but you know, so 94 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 2: you can have the sex talk with your kids. They're 95 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:09,279 Speaker 2: having the sex talk with some chatbot. 96 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 3: What's really interesting is that, so far, as far as 97 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:18,040 Speaker 3: I can observe, the premature sexualization of children, which the 98 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 3: left is so enthusiastic about, has mostly resulted in people 99 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 3: not pairing off, not actually having sex, not having relationships. 100 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 2: An interesting coexistence of those two things. 101 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:38,239 Speaker 3: Although it makes intuitive sense that there would be some, 102 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 3: maybe most, who having their normal development blocked in this way, 103 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 3: if you can picture that as a metaphor, A lot 104 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 3: of people go to the left toward this is all 105 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 3: sick and weird and I can't handle it, never mind, 106 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 3: and some people will go to the right being hyper sexualized, 107 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 3: addicted to pornography. Whatever. The point is the step by 108 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 3: step natural progression of the way you become aware of 109 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 3: the world in adulthood, everything from sex to taxes and 110 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 3: responsibility and paying bills and real deep emotional relationships with 111 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 3: another adult. That's an inch by inch process for the 112 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:23,559 Speaker 3: entire history of mankind, except now now, and I can't 113 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 3: resist another shot at the left. 114 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 2: Forgive me. Now. 115 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 3: You go to your woke school where you're immediately sexualized 116 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 3: and you're surrounded by poor or whatever, and that step 117 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 3: by step is like vaulting a mile at a time 118 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 3: in a way that their pre young mind, skin and 119 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 3: hearts can't handle. It's incredibly troubling to me. 120 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 2: I know, I can't imagine learning all the things that 121 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 2: I learned, like you said, little by little, inch by 122 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 2: inch over a period of years and just got dumped 123 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 2: on me, you know, like a bucket on my head, 124 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 2: a lot of it, really bad ideas and bad advice 125 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 2: and all kinds of things. Yeah, I mean, so you're 126 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 2: gonna have the sex talk with your teenage daughter to 127 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 2: make sure she's said, well, she's fine, she's got you know, 128 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 2: you're not the only role model for them. They've got 129 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 2: another role model. It's the AI bot that they get 130 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 2: to talk to. And apparently it's a thing like they 131 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 2: this person became aware of it from friends because that's 132 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 2: what the friends are doing. Too, and god knows what 133 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 2: sort of you know, the whole garbage in, garbage out. 134 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 2: Why is why are AI systems woke? Well because the 135 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 2: people programming them are and blah blah blah. 136 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 3: You got that issue as well. You know, I keep 137 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:34,839 Speaker 3: every time we talk about this sort of thing, I 138 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 3: have the same urge toward you know, some sort of 139 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 3: fundamentalist subcultural civilization or community or or you know, build 140 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 3: your own compound or something. And you know, people I'd say, yeah, 141 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 3: we're fundamentalists, and they say, like religious fundamentalists. No, Islamic fundamentalists. No, no, no, no, 142 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 3: we're just fun to We just concentrate on the fundamentals 143 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 3: of life in worship whatever. And no I'm not a 144 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 3: cult leader, and no I'm not sexing up the young women, 145 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:06,439 Speaker 3: which tends to be an inevitable thing in these little 146 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:10,200 Speaker 3: off hue communities. But yeah, we just there's a lot 147 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 3: of the modern world that sucks. Oh do you like 148 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 3: not do medicines and stuff? Oh no, no, no, we 149 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 3: do medicines and vaccinations, you know, and all this. Yeah, 150 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 3: we you know, we're not lunatics. We've just we've learned 151 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:28,840 Speaker 3: to separate the wheat from the chaff of the modern 152 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 3: world because and this is this is so obvious and 153 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 3: so fundamental it almost seems stupid to say. But we all, 154 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 3: as human beings, tend to be swept up. And we 155 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:40,080 Speaker 3: talked about this a couple of days ago in fascinating fashion. 156 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:42,839 Speaker 2: We all tend to be. 157 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:46,080 Speaker 3: Swept up by the culture and assume everything that is 158 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 3: offered to us is something we ought to take in. 159 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 3: And that's not true. There is some wheat, but there's 160 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:53,960 Speaker 3: some not only chaff, but poison, like thumb tacks in 161 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:55,960 Speaker 3: the wheat of the modern world. 162 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:58,560 Speaker 2: This is a great idea. Man, if I had billions 163 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 2: fight elons billions, I would start towns like this, or 164 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 2: communities or I don't know how. You don't have it 165 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 2: them unfold, but you'd be like the Amish, except for No, 166 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 2: we're not gonna write buggies down the road to work. 167 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:15,319 Speaker 2: It's ridiculous. But we're not gonna have the damned Internet. 168 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 2: We're not gonna have smartphones. We're not gonna have all 169 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 2: this stupid stuff. We're gonna go back to like way 170 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 2: back to two thousand and six. Okay, maybe I don't 171 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:26,240 Speaker 2: know on the internet. I have to think about that. 172 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 2: But definitely not smartphones, Definitely not Ai, Definitely none of 173 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 2: that stuff. And I think a lot of people gravitate 174 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 2: toward that. 175 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:37,320 Speaker 3: We're gonna have backyard barbecues and the kids are gonna 176 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 3: all go off to the side, and they're gonna talk 177 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 3: and giggle and laugh, and we'll wonder what they'll say 178 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 3: and if they're saying, and then they'll invent if in 179 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:46,840 Speaker 3: a game with a ball and a stick, and you know, yeah, 180 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 3: And is there any way to program morality into any 181 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 3: of this chatbot stuff? I mean, you couldn't force it, 182 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 3: but I mean, is there any way to have a 183 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 3: chatbot says, Wait a second, how old are you? 184 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 2: I'm twelve. Well you shouldn't be having said and certainly 185 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:04,560 Speaker 2: not being in a relationship with a seventeen year old. 186 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 2: There's either something wrong with them or they're just wanting 187 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:10,839 Speaker 2: to use you for sex. But this is a bad idea. 188 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:12,840 Speaker 2: Is there any way a chatbot whatever say that? 189 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:17,680 Speaker 3: Well, the issue is since groups, since we don't really 190 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 3: have shared a shared sense of morality anymore, because we've 191 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 3: become a much more diverse country, the it's impossible to 192 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 3: quote unquote infuse morality into it because nobody can agree 193 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 3: on what morality is or should be. Therefore, all things 194 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 3: digital are utterly a moral They are without morals. Does 195 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 3: that trouble anybody sending your child into a completely a 196 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:53,079 Speaker 3: moral environment? In this particular story, so chromebook got taken 197 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 3: away mom late at night. At one point realizes computers missing. 198 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 3: Oh goes in the daughter's bedroom. Couldn't stay away from 199 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 3: the sex advice chatbot to please a seventeen year old 200 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:10,960 Speaker 3: now has to sleep with the computer, all computer devices 201 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:13,680 Speaker 3: in the bedroom to make sure they I mean, oh 202 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 3: my god, this is not something our parents had to 203 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 3: deal with. No, I realized that I had to deal 204 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:27,079 Speaker 3: with and my kids are now mid twenties to early thirties. 205 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, I realized the hubris that comes with saying this 206 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 2: is a harder time to be a parent. This is 207 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:34,199 Speaker 2: a harder time to be a parent that it was 208 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:36,679 Speaker 2: for previous generations. It's horrible. 209 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 3: Yes, as somebody raised the just one more generation earlier, 210 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 3: You're right, you're one hundred percent. God, it's so crazy. 211 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 2: Anyway, if you know anything about this or had any 212 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:48,079 Speaker 2: experiences our text line four one five two nine to 213 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 2: five KFTC. 214 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:58,960 Speaker 1: Jack Armstrong and Joey, The Armstrong and Getty Show, The 215 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 1: Armstrong and take Out. 216 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:10,240 Speaker 2: Now I haven't heard this. Gavin Newsom and Bill Maher 217 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:12,599 Speaker 2: discussing some California policies. 218 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 3: We'll discuss I see today the Trump administration. 219 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 4: They talked about the fact that California had a rule 220 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:24,679 Speaker 4: that schools cannot be required to notify parents if their 221 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:29,720 Speaker 4: kids in school have changed their gender, their pronouns. That's 222 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 4: the kind of thing, even though it doesn't affect a 223 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 4: lot of people, that makes a lot of people go, well, 224 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 4: you know what, that's the party without common sense. Now, 225 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:40,959 Speaker 4: if that's your state, how are you are you? 226 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 2: I just disagree with that. I mean, the law was 227 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:45,040 Speaker 2: you would be fired. 228 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 5: A teacher would be fired if a teacher did not 229 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 5: report or snitch on a kid talking about their gender identity. 230 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 2: I just think that was wrong. 231 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:53,439 Speaker 3: I think teachers should teach. I don't think they should be. 232 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:56,200 Speaker 2: Required to turn in kids. And by the way, turning 233 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:57,680 Speaker 2: that we're talking about their parents. 234 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:00,719 Speaker 3: How can I snitch? The idea of a niche. 235 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:02,080 Speaker 4: And a parent to me doesn't combine. 236 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:04,080 Speaker 3: I just I don't. But what is what is the 237 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 3: job of a teacher. 238 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 2: It's to teach if Johnny's talking about some identity issue 239 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 2: or some issue about liking someone of. 240 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 3: The same sex, is that the teacher's job. 241 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 2: Oh well, the one thing that's clear from that he 242 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 2: is not confidently coming out and saying it's ridiculous that 243 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 2: teachers would not be allowed to tell parents about it, 244 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 2: And he didn't say that. He had the opportunity right 245 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 2: off the bat to say that, and he didn't. So 246 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 2: there's no chance he's gonna be president the United States. 247 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 2: You cannot be president in the United States unless you're 248 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 2: willing to take a position on this. It's been proven 249 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 2: over and over the candidates who try to like fudge 250 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 2: these things and be into thinking they're gonna have it 251 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 2: both ways. Never works. Never works. Didn't work for Kamala, 252 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 2: ain't gonna work for Gavin. I can't believe he doesn't 253 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 2: have the balls to come out and say, even in California, 254 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 2: what just has gotta be an eighty twenty issue, maybe 255 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 2: to ninety ten. 256 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:56,200 Speaker 3: I can't believe he didn't have the balls to say 257 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 3: that out loud and to claim that Johnny, who now 258 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 3: wants to be called Jenny, that that would be snitching 259 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 3: on the kid and akin to maybe the kid hints 260 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 3: that maybe he likes boys. That's just that is so 261 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 3: with false. I mean, it's so funny. And also the 262 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 3: job of a teacher is to teach, to teach Hi 263 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 3: about the genderbread person in radical gender theory, Gavin, you 264 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 3: require them to teach that stuff. 265 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 2: Now, with all the crap in California that they have 266 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 2: him teach that's not reading, writing and arithmetic, that ain't 267 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 2: gonna fly. And he's trying to conflate what DeSantis is 268 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 2: doing in Florida, where they have the law that you'll 269 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 2: be fired if you don't tell the parents, and he's 270 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 2: trying to act like that's what he's fighting against. No, no, no, no, no, 271 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 2: you went completely the other direction where the teacher is 272 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 2: not allowed to tell the parent. That's nuts. Yeah, and 273 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 2: every most people think it's nuts. As Bill Maher points out, 274 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 2: most people think that's nuts. I thought Gavin was smarter 275 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 2: than that. Here's the deal. 276 00:15:55,800 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 3: What's really wrecking him and people like him, thank God, 277 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 3: is more and more people are understanding the relationship between 278 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 3: the neo Marxists, the radical you know, gender theory crowd, 279 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 3: or the queer theory crowd, all these lunatics, the neo 280 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 3: Marxists and their connection to frans stance, the teachers Union, 281 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 3: which is down with all this stuff. Gavin doesn't dare 282 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 3: defy the teachers Union, which is down with all this stuff. 283 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 3: So he went as far as he's gonna go with 284 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 3: his Yeah, there's a injustice there. We need to strike 285 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 3: a balance with the girls. 286 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 2: And so it's not the vice versa. So it's not 287 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 2: the voters that he has in the back of his 288 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 2: mind when he's answering those questions. It's the teachers union. 289 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 3: We have the teachers unions and the radical activist class, 290 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 3: of which he I think is to the extent that 291 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 3: he has any beliefs whatsoever, they seem to be quite progressed. 292 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 2: I think he believes he wants to be president. 293 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:50,479 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd like to hear more of that exchange. 294 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, no kidding, because. 295 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 3: Mar cannot be I got to be able to say this. 296 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:06,440 Speaker 3: He cannot be bull asked. I'll just say that, why 297 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:07,479 Speaker 3: do you so oily? 298 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 2: Why do you take so much joy and cursing? 299 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 3: I don't know, No, it's just it's it's a wonderful thing. 300 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 2: It's a wonderful thing. 301 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 3: Well, you know, I consider bull as to be a 302 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:23,680 Speaker 3: perfect work universally understood and its meaning. It is brief, 303 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 3: it has a ring tw it, it has a rhythm 304 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 3: to it. It's perfect work. 305 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, And unfortunately the substitutes do not carry the same 306 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 2: weight arm Strong, the Armstrong and Getty shot. 307 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:59,879 Speaker 1: Seven track. 308 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:05,160 Speaker 2: The President decides to do something with an executive order 309 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 2: or whatever, often that they promised on the campaign trail, 310 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 2: their voters get all excited, Yay, they did it day 311 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 2: one like they promised. And then then I get an 312 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:19,440 Speaker 2: alert on my phone. Some judge somewhere I've never heard 313 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 2: of it said no, you can't do that. And then 314 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 2: it stops, and everybody's like groans, like, oh, they can 315 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 2: do that, and it keeps happening over and over again. 316 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 2: And do we want that system to continue that way 317 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:33,440 Speaker 2: or not? As part of what the Supreme Court was 318 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 2: arguing about yesterday, and as one of the justices said, 319 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:38,119 Speaker 2: there are six hundred some federal judges and while I 320 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:42,159 Speaker 2: do not question their motives, sometimes they are wrong. So 321 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 2: do we want them to be able to hold up 322 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:44,200 Speaker 2: the whole country? 323 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:49,439 Speaker 3: Let us discuss the very interesting and multifaceted oral arguments 324 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:52,880 Speaker 3: yesterday before the Supreme Court with Tim Sandefer, vice president 325 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 3: for Legal Affairs at the Goldwater Institute, among other auspicious titles, 326 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 3: author of eight books, including most recently Freedom's Fories, How 327 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:04,880 Speaker 3: Isabel Patterson, Rosewilder and Ein Rand Found Liberty and Age 328 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 3: of Darkness. I've recommended it many times. It's terrific, Tim, 329 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 3: How are you, sir? 330 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 2: Just great? 331 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:10,239 Speaker 5: Thanks for having me back. 332 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 2: Guys published poet got to throw that in there, true, Yes, 333 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 2: a polymath, as they say. 334 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 3: Anyway, Tim, So, ostensibly everyone's talking about that we're going 335 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:23,440 Speaker 3: to discuss birthright citizenship in front of the Supreme Court, 336 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 3: and that did come up. But would you agree that 337 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:32,119 Speaker 3: the more significant discussion was about nationwide injunctions by individual 338 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:32,879 Speaker 3: federal judges. 339 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 1: Oh? 340 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 5: Yes, absolutely. That was the focus of the argument, and 341 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 5: it was a very interesting argument. But I don't think 342 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 5: that it's a hard question. I think the answer is obviously, 343 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 5: nationwide injunctions are perfectly fine. They're the ordinary way of 344 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 5: doing business in the courts, and people who complain about 345 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 5: them either don't understand the system or are trying to 346 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:52,920 Speaker 5: get away with something illegal. 347 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. 348 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 2: I don't always like that it happened, but I can't 349 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 2: see what the alternative would be as somebody pointed out. 350 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 2: So you're gonna let I guess it was you that 351 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:05,439 Speaker 2: pointed it out yesterday in Twitter. The idea that so 352 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 2: every time a president does something, it's got to work 353 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 2: its way all the way through the courts up to 354 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 2: the Supreme Court, and then a decision by the Supreme 355 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 2: Court before the Supreme Court might say sometimes nine to nothing, 356 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:19,399 Speaker 2: you can't do that. 357 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 5: And during that whole period of time, the government is 358 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:23,200 Speaker 5: still doing the illegal thing. 359 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 3: Right right, wow, So clearly it's two to one for 360 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:28,680 Speaker 3: a judicial takeover of the government. 361 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:31,400 Speaker 2: But I will stand up for liberty. Uh, Is there 362 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 2: no middle ground? 363 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:34,119 Speaker 3: Has got to be three judge panel and not a 364 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 3: single yaho in rural Tennessee. 365 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think. I think having a single unit yaeho 366 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 5: in rural Tennessee is perfectly fine because that's what the 367 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,440 Speaker 5: appellate process is sort of. That's why you appeal cases. 368 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:47,880 Speaker 5: And by the way, that's why you should avoid appointing 369 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:50,680 Speaker 5: yahoos to the federal bench. You might mention that too. 370 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 5: The argument, the argument against nationwide injunctions always seems to 371 00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:58,919 Speaker 5: boil down to, well, this is a democracy, and the 372 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 5: majority it should all always get what it wants, and 373 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 5: the answer to that is no. What happened to all 374 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:05,680 Speaker 5: of my friends who used to say, this is a republic, 375 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 5: not a democracy. The whole point of our system is 376 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:11,359 Speaker 5: that the majority has to act lawfully, and if it 377 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 5: acts unlawfully, I can go in front of a judge 378 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 5: and get that given order from that judge prohibiting the 379 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:20,399 Speaker 5: government from violating my rights. And the idea that we 380 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:22,920 Speaker 5: should do this piece meal, that only a judge down here, 381 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 5: that his order only applies there. Meanwhile, the government can 382 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 5: do illegal things to everybody else in the country until 383 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 5: the case reaches the US Supreme Court makes no sense 384 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 5: at all. 385 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:36,400 Speaker 3: The underlying theme here being folks that what we really 386 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:38,159 Speaker 3: need to fear is the power of the government in 387 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:40,239 Speaker 3: this country. That's kind of the idea of forming it. 388 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 3: So there's no question that these nationwide injunctions were relatively 389 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 3: or practically completely unknown for one hundred and fifty years. 390 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 3: Then there are a handful of them, and the number 391 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 3: of them is now skyrots every day. 392 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:55,480 Speaker 2: It seems like on my phone, I see a judge 393 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 2: jumped in somewhere. 394 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,400 Speaker 5: Actually, right, I actually don't think that that's true. I 395 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:01,959 Speaker 5: think that what happened was we just started calling them 396 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 5: by a different name. You know, there were been injunction 397 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:09,880 Speaker 5: injunctions against unconstitutional government actions since before there was a constitution. 398 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:11,440 Speaker 5: One of the points that was brought up during the 399 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:14,439 Speaker 5: arguments was that British judges used to do this before 400 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 5: the American Revolution, and that was considered perfectly legitimate. It's 401 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 5: just that nowadays we call them nation right injunctions, or 402 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 5: we have some judges who write sloppily and don't explain 403 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 5: what they're actually saying or something. And okay, that's a problem, 404 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,359 Speaker 5: I suppose. But the idea that you should limit the 405 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 5: injunction power of federal courts is what that is is 406 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:37,879 Speaker 5: that's open door to the majority violating individual rights on 407 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 5: a scale that I mean, they already do it, but 408 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 5: you can imagine what it would be if we took 409 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:44,880 Speaker 5: away one of the most important protections for individual rights 410 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 5: in this country, which is getting an injunction from our 411 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:48,959 Speaker 5: federal court to protect their freedom. 412 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 3: And that's insane. 413 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:53,200 Speaker 2: So I didn't want to get to this part too 414 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:55,199 Speaker 2: fast because you're a lawyer, and this part can't be 415 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:57,360 Speaker 2: fixed with the law. It seems to me that we've 416 00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:02,440 Speaker 2: got a cultural problem in that presidents are way more 417 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 2: likely than they used to be to want to challenge 418 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:09,719 Speaker 2: the Supreme Court, either to like legitimately they don't think 419 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:13,159 Speaker 2: the law is correct, or they don't care if they're wrong. 420 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:15,479 Speaker 2: They just want to get the political credit for trying. 421 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 2: And perhaps I don't know this, but it seems like 422 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 2: a likely response. The six hundred some federal judges out there, 423 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:23,919 Speaker 2: there's a lot more of them who are willing to 424 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 2: let their politics get ahead of their judge reasoning and 425 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 2: jump in and stop somebody they hate. 426 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:31,720 Speaker 5: Yes, you're absolutely right about that, and especially the thing 427 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:35,160 Speaker 5: about the President and Congress being willing to do things 428 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 5: that they know are unconstitutional because they know that the 429 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 5: judges are going to strike it down and they can 430 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 5: blame the judges and say all those evil activist judges, 431 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 5: or they can get away with their unconstitutional things. So 432 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 5: it's win win if you want to do something unconstitutional. 433 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 5: And honestly, every president's done this to some degree. Obviously 434 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:54,919 Speaker 5: Franklin Roosevelt did this a lot. But the one that 435 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:58,200 Speaker 5: I always six in my memory is George W. Bush 436 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:02,640 Speaker 5: when he signed the the McCain Fine Gold campaign finance 437 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,440 Speaker 5: Law and said when he signed it that he thought 438 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 5: it was unconstitutional, but that he would leave it to 439 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:10,239 Speaker 5: the courts to deal with. Well, I'm sorry, but if 440 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 5: you're the president, you take an oath to support and 441 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 5: defend the Constitution of the United States. And if you 442 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,359 Speaker 5: ignore that oath and sign something that you know is 443 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 5: unconstitutional just because you think the courts will clean up 444 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,160 Speaker 5: your mess for you, I think that's disgraceful. 445 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, a lot of the pieces I've read that 446 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:26,920 Speaker 2: have been following the growth of this use that as 447 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,679 Speaker 2: kind of like the patient zero because he said it 448 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 2: out loud, and then other presidents thought, hey, I can 449 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:34,439 Speaker 2: do that, I just won't say it out loud, and 450 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:36,399 Speaker 2: Obama did it, and Biden did it, and Trump did 451 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:39,040 Speaker 2: it in whichever order, and then Trump again and and 452 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:41,880 Speaker 2: so how do we fix this? 453 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 5: Well, there's a long answer and the short answer. The 454 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:48,960 Speaker 5: short answer is elect good presidents. The long answer is 455 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 5: that we have to restore respect for the Constitution in 456 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 5: this country. I think it's the long term damage that's 457 00:24:55,480 --> 00:25:00,160 Speaker 5: been done to Americans understanding and appreciation of the Constitution 458 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 5: is horrifying. We have prominent law professors. There was a 459 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 5: law professor at at Georgetown Law School a few years 460 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 5: ago published an article in The Washington Post saying the 461 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 5: Constitution is obsolete. I don't respect it at all. Well, 462 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 5: you're a teacher of constitutional law for crying out loud. 463 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 5: And if we don't respect the Constitution, we don't love it. 464 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 5: It cannot protect us. The Constitution is just a promise, 465 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:24,639 Speaker 5: and if we don't honor that promise, then it's not 466 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 5: worth the paper it's written on. 467 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 3: We should have written a law specifically putting him in jail. 468 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 3: In my opinion, Tim Sandefer is online from the Goldwater 469 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 3: Institute Little Constitutional humor for exactly design for punish one man. 470 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 3: That's a good idea, so you know, blah blah blah. 471 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 3: Disclaimer about it's difficult to read the tea leaves of 472 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 3: the oral arguments, blah blah blah. Did it strike you 473 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:52,440 Speaker 3: that the justices, the sane ones that we like, we're 474 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:57,240 Speaker 3: leaning in any particular direction as to the nationwide injunctions judges, 475 00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:58,680 Speaker 3: et cetera that we've been discussing. 476 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,480 Speaker 5: Some of the judges have made clear for a long 477 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 5: time that they're against these what they call nationwide injunctions. 478 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,200 Speaker 5: Justice Thomas in particular, some of the others are a 479 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 5: little harder to read. Justice Barrett, for example, and Justice Roberts, 480 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 5: who have become really the swing judges on this issue. 481 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:15,640 Speaker 3: I thought the. 482 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:17,879 Speaker 5: Most interesting judge if if anybody wants to go and 483 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 5: listen to the argument online, I thought Justice Jackson was 484 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 5: the one who is the most interesting. She clearly understands 485 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:26,879 Speaker 5: how this area of the law works, and she rightly 486 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:30,960 Speaker 5: says there's no there there that nationwide injunctions are perfectly legitimate. 487 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:34,160 Speaker 5: They always have been and there's no problem. So she'd 488 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:35,879 Speaker 5: be the one that I find most interesting. But how 489 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 5: to predict I think you're going to get. I think 490 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 5: Justice Roberts and Justice Barrett are going to a side 491 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:43,159 Speaker 5: with the liberals and say, we don't have a problem 492 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 5: per se with nationwide injunctions, but maybe some of them 493 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 5: aren't very good, but as a as a blanket matter, 494 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 5: they're okay. And then they're going to want to hear 495 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 5: the underlying case about birthright citizenship, which obviously is a 496 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 5: huge deal. 497 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:00,199 Speaker 3: Right to me, is it even worth getting in to 498 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:03,120 Speaker 3: what happened on that topic yesterday or do you think it's. 499 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:05,919 Speaker 5: Well, they really just talked about whether or not they 500 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,439 Speaker 5: have a legitimate case in the first place, and they 501 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:10,960 Speaker 5: haven't really briefed it or argued it yet. But that's 502 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 5: important because in order to get an injunction, you kind 503 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:14,919 Speaker 5: of have to first show that you have even an 504 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 5: arguable point to make, and that was what they were 505 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 5: arguing about. And I will say, I know this is 506 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 5: talk radio, and we're all supposed to think that we 507 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:25,240 Speaker 5: clearly have the right answer and everything. I think the 508 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:28,960 Speaker 5: birthright citizenship question is a very hard question. I don't 509 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 5: think it's an easy question on either side. 510 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,120 Speaker 2: Let's talk about that when we come back from the break. 511 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 2: I want to hear the arguments on both sides of that. 512 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:40,440 Speaker 2: That's interesting And clearly you've probably seen the breakdown. Who 513 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 2: speaks the most words? The chicks talk too much? Is 514 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 2: that given? 515 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,439 Speaker 5: Well, Jessic sodomoy Are does love cutting off lawyers and 516 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:48,879 Speaker 5: not letting them answer her question. 517 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, the chicks talk too so much. I think that's 518 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 2: been and the new gal talks more than anybody. 519 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:55,119 Speaker 3: That shouldn't happen in any organization. 520 00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:05,639 Speaker 1: Jack Armstrong and Joe Trottie Strong and Show Jack Armstrong 521 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,440 Speaker 1: and Joe Getty The Armstrong and Getty Show. 522 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,679 Speaker 3: Discussing the oral arguments before the Supreme Court yesterday with 523 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 3: Tim Sanderfur, vice president for legal Affairs at the Goldwater Institute. 524 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 3: It was advertised as a birthright citizenship hearing it or discussion. 525 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 3: It really was much more a discussion of individual federal 526 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 3: judges and nationwide in junctions and that sort of thing. 527 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 3: But to the question of the Fourteenth Amendment, Tim, you 528 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 3: said before the break that it's not an easy call. 529 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 3: I'm glad to hear you agree. I've thought the same thing. 530 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 3: What should we know about the fourteenth Amendment even come 531 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 3: to a semi intelligent opinion on this? 532 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 5: Well, the first sentence of the fourteenth Amendment says, all 533 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 5: persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject 534 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 5: to the jurisdiction thereof, are US citizens in all of 535 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 5: this case. All of these arguments turn on that phrase, 536 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 5: subject to the jurisdiction thereof. What does that phrase mean. 537 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 5: It's really tough because the word jurisdiction is one of 538 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 5: those words that can mean all sorts of different things. 539 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 5: It basically means power, but there's all sorts of different 540 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:17,960 Speaker 5: kinds of power, and so that's what the argument turns on. 541 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 5: Some people think that it means you have to follow 542 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 5: the law. If you're born here and you have to 543 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 5: follow the law, then you're subject to the jurisdiction thereof, 544 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 5: and then that means you're a citizen. But that doesn't 545 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 5: really make a lot of sense because even foreign tourists 546 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 5: who come here for a vacation have to follow the law. 547 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 5: I mean, they have to stop at the red lights 548 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 5: and they can't steal things, So that can't be what 549 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 5: that means, right. Instead, the other side argues, jurisdiction thereof 550 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 5: means some kind of loyalty or allegiance, that there's citizenship jurisdiction, 551 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 5: as opposed to follow the law jurisdiction, and that difference. 552 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 5: You can see that difference for example, in this if 553 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 5: you're a foreign spy and you sneak into the country 554 00:29:58,080 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 5: and you spy for some foreign country and you get 555 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 5: it rested, you can be prosecuted for espionage, but you 556 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:07,800 Speaker 5: cannot be prosecuted for treason. Why because you're not a 557 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 5: US citizen and you don't owe loyalty to the US, 558 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:14,560 Speaker 5: so you cannot commit treason against the US. And so 559 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,640 Speaker 5: there's two different kinds of jurisdiction, is the argument. And 560 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 5: so those who are against birth right citizenships say, subject 561 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 5: of the jurisdiction thereof means that your parents owed loyalty 562 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,600 Speaker 5: to the United States as opposed to some foreign country. 563 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:29,680 Speaker 5: And that would mean that illegal aliens, if they have 564 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:31,720 Speaker 5: a child here, that child is not a citizen in 565 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:35,040 Speaker 5: the United States. Now, that's also there's a problem with that. 566 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:36,960 Speaker 5: There's a couple problems that. One of the problems with 567 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 5: that argument is that nobody has ever said that that's 568 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 5: what it means. In the one hundred and fifty years 569 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 5: since this has been in the Constitution, everybody has active 570 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 5: like if you're born here, you're a citizen all of 571 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 5: that time. And so suddenly discovering that we're at it 572 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 5: turns out that we've been misreading the Constitution for one 573 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 5: hundred and fifty years would be a huge, enormously radical 574 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 5: transformation and how are system works That would cause tremendous 575 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,760 Speaker 5: disruption nationwide, and that would be a real problem. But 576 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 5: all of this, the real problem here in answering this 577 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 5: question is that when the amendment was adopted, there were 578 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 5: no such things as the illegal aliens because there were 579 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 5: no laws against immigration. And that means if you're an 580 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:19,840 Speaker 5: originalist and you think the competition should be understood the 581 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 5: way it was originally intended. The Framers didn't ever think 582 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 5: about this because it wasn't against the law back then, 583 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:26,520 Speaker 5: So we don't know what. 584 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 3: They would have thought about this question right right Well, 585 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:34,000 Speaker 3: at the point that this enormously radical, disruptive president is overturned, 586 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:36,360 Speaker 3: that's when you tag me and Tim and I come 587 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 3: in and explain to the good folks that, look, the 588 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:45,480 Speaker 3: nature of global transportation, the movement of people or peoples 589 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 3: from one place to another has changed so vastly. 590 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 2: God, Joe's a living constitution guy. You can hear it coming. 591 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 3: Out of what No, don't you dare no, that the 592 00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,480 Speaker 3: very nature of comings and goings from countries has been 593 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:05,320 Speaker 3: so radically transformed. A Chinese national with not the slightest 594 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 3: notion of making life in the United States can can 595 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 3: depart China, arrive here, give birth, go back to China, 596 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 3: all in the span of seventy two hours. I'm inducing 597 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,720 Speaker 3: labor in this case probably or getting very lucky, and 598 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:26,280 Speaker 3: that child had citizenship. That's an eventuality unimaginable back in 599 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:27,400 Speaker 3: the day, is the case. 600 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:29,960 Speaker 5: I think so, And that's sort of true. But on 601 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 5: the other hand, the Chinese question came up back then 602 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 5: because there were so many Chinese in California in the 603 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 5: eighteen sixties. And Senator's rast, well, isn't this going to 604 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 5: make the children of the Chinese immigrants who back then 605 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 5: did not intend to stay in the United States? They 606 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:45,640 Speaker 5: intended to go back to China. The senator's rest, does 607 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 5: this make their kids us? Senator US citizens? And the 608 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 5: Senator from California said yes, and then he was immediately 609 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:54,280 Speaker 5: thrown out of office. So what does that mean? 610 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 3: Nobody knows what that means a single case from eighteen 611 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 3: ninety eight, or is there more precedent? 612 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 5: Really, there really isn't. There's really just a handful of presidents, 613 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,360 Speaker 5: and no Supreme Court case has ever said that birthright 614 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:10,200 Speaker 5: citizenship is the is in the Constitution. There have been 615 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:12,320 Speaker 5: some that have kind of mentioned it or kind of 616 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 5: assumed it, but none has said so outright. 617 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 2: I am surprised the polling shows that only about a 618 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:19,320 Speaker 2: third of Americans want to do away with the way 619 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 2: we do it now. I'm surprised by that. I do 620 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 2: want to get to this. This is a journalistic question, 621 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 2: but I think it has an effect on people's respect 622 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:28,479 Speaker 2: for the law. It has come up recently, it has 623 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 2: become a pattern that anytime the media mentions a judge, 624 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:36,000 Speaker 2: they mentioned what president appointed them. Do you think that's 625 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 2: a good idea or not? They didn't just barely got 626 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:39,360 Speaker 2: a minute. 627 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:42,480 Speaker 5: I think it's fine. I think people should know where 628 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:44,800 Speaker 5: these For instance, I think it would help a lot 629 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,719 Speaker 5: of judges. You know, a lot of Republican appointed judges 630 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 5: have been ruling against the Trump administration, and I think 631 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 5: it would be helpful for people to know that these 632 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 5: questions are not things where it's all partisan. The law 633 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,320 Speaker 5: is not just partisan politics. It's something much more profound 634 00:33:58,360 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 5: and much more important than. 635 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:03,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, well I agree, But it implies that judge I 636 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:04,600 Speaker 2: don't know. True. 637 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 5: I used to think. 638 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:07,760 Speaker 2: I didn't used to think about it ever. If a 639 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:10,279 Speaker 2: judge ruled, I just thought, well, that's interesting. Now it's 640 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:14,640 Speaker 2: all who appointed him. Oh of course he said that. 641 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:16,319 Speaker 5: That is true. That is a risk, But I think 642 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,279 Speaker 5: we should air on the side of informing people as 643 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 5: opposed to keeping people in the dark. 644 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:23,080 Speaker 2: So that's that was true. 645 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,399 Speaker 3: Tim Sander for the Goldwater Institute on the line, Tim 646 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:28,240 Speaker 3: final question, I've called for a monarchy. 647 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:29,759 Speaker 2: You in favor of it? Yes or no? 648 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:32,920 Speaker 5: No? I'm against him monarchy. I'm for the constitution. 649 00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:33,400 Speaker 3: Joe. 650 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,160 Speaker 2: One more question as a published poet, I was thinking 651 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 2: about this. Yesterday he won the Nobel Prize. Bob Dylan 652 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:40,680 Speaker 2: good poet or not lousy poet? 653 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,560 Speaker 5: Now read Robert Hayden or Richard Wilbur instead. 654 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:50,280 Speaker 3: How about Ringo Star Octopus's Garden creative Tam. It's always 655 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 3: great and enlightening. Thanks Millian for the time. Let's talk 656 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:53,880 Speaker 3: again soon. Thanks guys. 657 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,160 Speaker 2: All right, I was actually thinking about this listening to 658 00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:01,359 Speaker 2: Dylan lyrics. Why do they in everybody's head so much? 659 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:03,359 Speaker 2: Why do people keep going back to them? If it's 660 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:08,560 Speaker 2: just gobbledegook, like a lot of real poets claim, it 661 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,120 Speaker 2: can't be. It wouldn't lodge, it wouldn't It wouldn't make 662 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:13,719 Speaker 2: the market made, would it? All right? 663 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:18,160 Speaker 3: He was famously moody about his career and his music 664 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:20,880 Speaker 3: in his Life's Philosophy. I think some of his stuff 665 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:23,520 Speaker 3: is absolutely brilliant, and I think some of it's gobbledygook. 666 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:27,719 Speaker 2: Humhm. Maybe maybe more on that another day, or maybe not. 667 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 2: We got plenty of stuff to tell you. I hope 668 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:32,040 Speaker 2: you can stick around if you missus segment. I thought 669 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:33,480 Speaker 2: that tim thing was really really good and you want 670 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:35,480 Speaker 2: to listen to it again and get the podcast Armstrong 671 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:36,320 Speaker 2: and Getty on demand. 672 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:42,480 Speaker 3: Armstrong to arms Strong in Getty on demand. 673 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:45,080 Speaker 2: We're not boring. A lot of news is boring and 674 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:46,360 Speaker 2: tedious and depressing. 675 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:48,839 Speaker 3: It makes you angry. You don't want to live your 676 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,120 Speaker 3: life like that. Hey, I'm Jack Armstrong. 677 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:52,840 Speaker 2: He's Joe Getty. We're Armstrong in Getty. 678 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:54,440 Speaker 3: We try to bring you the truth and help you 679 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:56,279 Speaker 3: figure out this crazy modern world. 680 00:35:56,400 --> 00:36:01,799 Speaker 2: About something about a comedic tone. We have a one 681 00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:05,240 Speaker 2: ore Yes. Listen to Armstrong. You get it on demand 682 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:06,480 Speaker 2: on the iHeartRadio app