1 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:08,400 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. There of course, remains 2 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: a massive need for electricity, electric power, renewable power. Here, 3 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:17,320 Speaker 1: I say, as data centers sprout up out of the 4 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:21,079 Speaker 1: earth like weeds in this country. Enter Governor Spencer Cox's 5 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:24,320 Speaker 1: Operation Gigawatt. If you were with us a couple of 6 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: months ago, you've actually heard about this project that aims 7 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 1: to create a consortium and an ecosystem that will eventually 8 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: bring more advanced nuclear power to states like Utah and 9 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:40,240 Speaker 1: other states throughout the West. Operation Gigawatt to identify and 10 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 1: assess sites for a potential advanced nuclear plant. They want 11 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:45,879 Speaker 1: to have that sited and chosen by the end of 12 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:47,919 Speaker 1: this year, by the end of twenty twenty five, so 13 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:51,959 Speaker 1: construction can begin in the year ahead. You heard our 14 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 1: conversation with Governor Cox and the CEO of valor Atomics, 15 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 1: and we have a different in individual from that future 16 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:05,679 Speaker 1: ecosystem who is with us today alongside the governor. First, 17 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: let's introduce Spencer Cox, the Governor of Utah. It's great 18 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 1: to see you, against sir, welcome back to Bloomberg TV 19 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: and Radio. And Chris Levec is with us as well. 20 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: The CEO of Terra Power, which is working on an 21 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 1: advanced nuclear reactor that would be cited in Utah. Gentlemen, 22 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:23,400 Speaker 1: I'd like to ask you both about how all this 23 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: is going to work and Governor why we're in fact 24 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:28,320 Speaker 1: adding another name to this list. What does this mean 25 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:33,319 Speaker 1: today to reaching that new level of power in Utah. 26 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 2: Well, you set the table very well. 27 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 3: Operation Gigawatt is about doubling the energy production in the 28 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 3: state of Utah, something that we need. If you care 29 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:45,399 Speaker 3: about economic progress in our country, if you care about 30 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 3: national security, and if you care about just prosperity in general, 31 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 3: we have to in the environment. If you care about 32 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 3: the environment, you have to believe in nuclear power, and 33 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 3: we do. And so we are setting up that ecosystem 34 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 3: so that the private sector will have the opportunity to 35 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 3: bring the latest inventions, to bring the best technology to bear. 36 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:10,359 Speaker 3: And terror Power is one of those technologies they're building 37 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 3: right now, and the only construction nuclear capabilities happening in 38 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 3: our country is happening with terror Power. We're so excited 39 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 3: to partner with Chris and his team, and we truly 40 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 3: believe that what President Trump has been talking about in 41 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:28,079 Speaker 3: the Oval Office today is going to happen right here 42 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:30,079 Speaker 3: in Utah. 43 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 1: Chris, I'd love to hear about what you are working 44 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 1: on at Terra Power, because it's a little bit different 45 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 1: than some of the other nuclear technology that our viewers 46 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:41,239 Speaker 1: and listeners are probably used to. Natrium reactors are your 47 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 1: specialty that use liquid sodium instead of water as a coolant. 48 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 1: Does that make them safer or more dangerous? 49 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 4: Well, it certainly makes them safer and more economic as well. 50 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 4: Thanks for having me, Joe, and thanks to Governor Cox 51 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 4: really for your leadership with Operation Yegowa. And of course 52 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:05,119 Speaker 4: we already heard that the Trump administration is providing very 53 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:10,920 Speaker 4: strong support for nuclear and advanced nuclear energy, which is 54 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:12,800 Speaker 4: the form that Natrium takes. 55 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 2: You know, I've spent my whole career. 56 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 4: In nuclear energy, beginning in the Navy, and this is 57 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:21,640 Speaker 4: an industry that the US created decades ago. It provides 58 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 4: twenty percent of our electricity. But the fact is the 59 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 4: US had fallen behind in the last few years. China 60 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 4: and Russia had many more new builds than US, And 61 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 4: with leadership from folks like Governor Cox, we're now prioritizing 62 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 4: and advanced nuclear energy. It is very important for us 63 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 4: to move to new technologies like the Natrium reactor because 64 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 4: they will be cheaper and safer than today's plants. 65 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 2: Today's plants are quite. 66 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 4: Safe, but if we look at a massive upscale, it's 67 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 4: really important for us to move to the new technologies. 68 00:03:56,120 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 4: China and Russia certainly are. The natrium reactor is still 69 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 4: a fission reactor. We break uranium atoms to release a 70 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 4: lot of heat and boil water to make steam and 71 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 4: drive turbines to make electricity the old fashioned way. But 72 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 4: by cooling the reactor with liquid sodium, it allows us 73 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 4: to have a low pressure plant, which is going to 74 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 4: be safer. It's going to require much less steel and concrete. 75 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 4: Another really important feature of the reactor is that we 76 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 4: have built in energy storage, and this is going to 77 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:30,839 Speaker 4: be really important in the Mountain West where you do 78 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 4: have quite quite a bit of renewables that you have 79 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 4: to balance out, and built in storage allows us to 80 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 4: boost the energy output of the natrium reactor throughout the 81 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:44,600 Speaker 4: day as the wind and the sun come and go, 82 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 4: which is a limitation of renewables. 83 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:48,839 Speaker 2: So natrium is. 84 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 4: A great balance to that. We're so excited to announce 85 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 4: with the State of Utah and with Flagshift companies today 86 00:04:56,240 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 4: memorandum of understanding to examine UTAs sites for natrium deployment. 87 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 4: So we'll be looking at, you know, multiple sites in 88 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 4: Utah for their potential to host a natreum reactor. As 89 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 4: Governor Costs mentioned, we're already in the state of Wyoming 90 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:19,480 Speaker 4: building our first reactor there. So we're very happy. 91 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:20,159 Speaker 2: To be in the Mountain West. 92 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 1: All right, Chris Well, I mean, that's a heck of 93 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 1: an elevator pitchon, Governor, We're talking about some pretty esoteric 94 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 1: technology here, using gravity and thermal convection to enable passive 95 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:36,040 Speaker 1: cooling in this natrium reactor. Last time you were on 96 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 1: with this, Governor, you talked about a whole different approach 97 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:42,359 Speaker 1: to these small size, micro scale reactors. Do you understand 98 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:45,159 Speaker 1: you becoming an expert on nuclear science or are you 99 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 1: just calling the smart guys to do the work? 100 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 2: Well, well, a little bit of both for sure. 101 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 3: In fact, just last week I was at MIT with 102 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:55,840 Speaker 3: one of the nuclear physicists there having these very conversations 103 00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 3: and that's the thing. We're betting on all of these technologies. 104 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 3: And truly, as Chris mentioned, the United States did lead 105 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 3: the world when it comes to nuclear technology and then 106 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:09,039 Speaker 3: we made a very bad decision. We decided basically since 107 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 3: nineteen seventy five, the year I was bored, that we 108 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 3: weren't going to bet on nuclear. The rest of the 109 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:16,679 Speaker 3: world has moved ahead of us, and that's a huge mistake. 110 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 3: Right now, as we are in an energy arms race. 111 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 3: You mentioned the data centers and AI arms race, and 112 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 3: we have to win. We can't lose this one. But 113 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:28,720 Speaker 3: we don't have to compromise on safety either. We can 114 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:31,039 Speaker 3: do both of those things. And the way you get 115 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 3: better with this technology is to start building it. That's 116 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 3: what we haven't been doing over the last fifty years 117 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 3: is actually doing the thing that we know we can do. 118 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:41,600 Speaker 3: We have the best scientists, we have the best innovators 119 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 3: in the world, and Utah is betting on them and 120 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 3: the country needs that desperately right now. 121 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:50,480 Speaker 1: Really interesting, Chris, Let's say you get a site by 122 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: the end of the year, that's your plan, by the 123 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 1: end of twenty twenty five, how long would it take 124 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 1: to have a natrium reactor up and running. 125 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:01,160 Speaker 4: Yes, Joe, we could mobilize a site shortly after that 126 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 4: because we've made a lot of progress with the Nuclear 127 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 4: Regulatory Commission in licensing that first plant in Wyoming. Uh, 128 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 4: then we're we're looking at about a three year construction 129 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 4: duration for for natrium reactors, which is which is much 130 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 4: shorter than today's technologies that require all of the steel 131 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 4: and concrete. So it's yet another reason for us to 132 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 4: move forward with advanced technology, you know. And I do 133 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 4: want to point out we're not only supplying you know, 134 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 4: AI and you know, important energy security demands in the US, 135 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 4: but you know, with leadership of people like Governor Cox, 136 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 4: we're also saying, if we can prove out this technology here, 137 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 4: you know, we can then export the technology where uh, 138 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 4: you know, nations that are hungry for electricity are inevitably 139 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 4: going to be shopping for nuclear and we need to 140 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 4: offer a US technology, uh, in competition with with Russia 141 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 4: and China. Who will be who will be peddling nuclear 142 00:07:57,920 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 4: energy around the world. 143 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 1: Governor there's a headline in Washington today that the EPA 144 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 1: is pulling almost sixty two million dollars in solar grants 145 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 1: from the state of Utah. Does that make your life 146 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 1: more difficult when you're pursuing it all of the above strategy. 147 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 3: Well, it definitely doesn't help. And look, we are in 148 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 3: all of the above state. We do have an immense 149 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 3: amount of sunshine here, and we want to take advantage 150 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 3: of solar for sure, and solar with batteries. But I 151 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 3: just don't think most people comprehend the amounts of power 152 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:35,079 Speaker 3: that are going to be needed, that are needed right now. 153 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:35,559 Speaker 2: Look. 154 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:38,080 Speaker 3: Look, the entire state of Utah runs on about four 155 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 3: gigawatts of electricity. We have one data center campus that 156 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 3: would operate on four gigawatts of electricity. I mean that's 157 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:51,960 Speaker 3: that's over one hundred years worth of electricity production and 158 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 3: development in the state of Utah. And they need that 159 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:57,959 Speaker 3: kind of power right now. So we need all of it. 160 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:01,839 Speaker 3: We need the solar, We need the coal that is 161 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 3: still burning in Utah, the cleanest burning coal anywhere in 162 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 3: the world. We need the natural gas. Unfortunately, we have 163 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:09,199 Speaker 3: a lot of that too, and we have to bet 164 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:12,439 Speaker 3: on nuclear, and so that's what we're doing. We can't 165 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 3: do nuclear overnight. It is going to take a few years, 166 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:18,440 Speaker 3: but we can certainly increase that time, the production time, 167 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 3: the development time, and then actually getting that product out 168 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 3: to consumers. We been short sighted. There is an abundance 169 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 3: of energy out there. We're the ones making decisions to 170 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 3: hold that back. Those decisions are now changing in a 171 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 3: bipartisan way, and I'm so happy to see it. I'm 172 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 3: so happy to hear blue state governors that are talking 173 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 3: about energy development again in ways that they haven't in 174 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 3: the past. Let's not make these false choices. Let's work 175 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 3: on the solar side, let's work on the nuclear side, 176 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:45,720 Speaker 3: and let's get it done. 177 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: Well, that's a really interesting answer. I guess these grants 178 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 1: sixty two million dollars worth. They're a little more than 179 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: a year old. This goes back to May of twenty four. 180 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 1: Would you ask for these grants to be restored and 181 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:59,560 Speaker 1: what does it mean for people paying their bills each month? 182 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 3: Well, look again, we'll look at those grants and what 183 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 3: each one of those was for. 184 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:07,559 Speaker 2: I'm going through that review process right now. 185 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 3: We do know that there was money that was granted 186 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 3: that is going to be spent on things that aren't 187 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:13,320 Speaker 3: going to help in the long term. And if we 188 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 3: can divert that money in a way that will get 189 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 3: us a better product, that will get us more that 190 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 3: will again help to lower prices, that's all I. 191 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 2: Care about right now. 192 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 3: I think it's a mistake to get in these fights 193 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 3: where we're denigrating one technology over the other. We should 194 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 3: again be trying to lift all of these technologies because 195 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 3: they do all play a role, and certainly solar is 196 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 3: going to play a role in Utah. It is right 197 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 3: now and it will continue in the future, but it 198 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:41,959 Speaker 3: can't be the only role. We had one administration before 199 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 3: that was trying to stop us from using the technologies 200 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 3: that we have that exist now with coal and natural gas. 201 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 2: That was a terrible mistake. 202 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 3: I want to make sure we don't swing the pendulum 203 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 3: too far and start tearing down other technologies that are 204 00:10:57,520 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 3: going to help us well into the future. 205 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 1: I hear you, well, I don't know who you're going 206 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:03,200 Speaker 1: to show up with next Governor, but I really appreciate 207 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 1: the conversation. Spencer Cox, the Republican governor of Utah. Chris Levec, 208 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: president and CEO of a company called Terra Power. Check 209 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 1: it out. These new reactors they're working on might help 210 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 1: to answer some of the questions that we've been asking 211 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 1: about power in the United States.