1 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Bridget and this is Annie, and you're 2 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 1: listening to stuff Mom never told you so. In our 3 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 1: continued coverage of the Me Too movement and all of 4 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: the wrinkles therein, we wanted to tell you that the 5 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:31,480 Speaker 1: head of CBS, Less Moonvez, recently stepped down from the CBS. 6 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: Moonvez is a huge media figure. He oversaw the CBS Network, 7 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:38,960 Speaker 1: which included shows like The Big Bang, Theory Sixty Minutes 8 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:42,200 Speaker 1: and n c I S, the premium cable channel Showtime. 9 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:45,520 Speaker 1: In the publishing house Simon and Schuster, he was also 10 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:49,559 Speaker 1: a pretty big male vocal proponent of Me Too, and 11 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 1: in December he helped found the Commission on Eliminating Sexual 12 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 1: Harassment and Advancing a Quality in the Workplace, which is 13 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 1: chaired by Anita Hill. But according to a new Pie 14 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 1: spy who Else Ronan Pharaoh, six women who had professional 15 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 1: dealings with Les Moonvest between the nineteen eighties and the 16 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 1: late adds that he sexually harassed them or described forcible 17 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:13,480 Speaker 1: touching or kissing during business meetings, and what they said 18 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:17,040 Speaker 1: appeared to be a practice routine. Who said that Moonvests 19 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:20,679 Speaker 1: physically intimidated them or threatened to debrail their careers all 20 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 1: said that he became cold or hostile after they rejected 21 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: his advances, and that they believed their careers suffered as 22 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 1: a result. So add another name to that creep list. 23 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: It's getting quite long. We could turn this show into 24 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: just like creeps mom never told you about? Yes, creep 25 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 1: some mom never told like yeah, which would not be 26 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 1: very fun to listen to, but important on it would 27 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: be informative, you know, having a having a updating creep list, 28 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 1: an updating creep list. Just hours after Ronan Pharaoh's piece 29 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: was published, Moonves was ousted from his role at CBS. 30 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 1: He will stay on as an advisor and CBS will 31 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 1: pay him one million if it's ongoing investigation fails to 32 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: find any evidence of sexual misconduct, which just doesn't seem 33 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:12,800 Speaker 1: quite right. Yeah, so he's sort of a creep in 34 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 1: residence right now, exactly. It's got to have an on 35 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:21,959 Speaker 1: site creep available at all times. Yeah, just in case. Well, Annie. 36 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:24,399 Speaker 1: The Daily Mail actually points out that, according to an 37 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 1: SEC filing, CBS might actually be the one putting the 38 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 1: bill quote. Within thirty days following the termination day, the 39 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:34,799 Speaker 1: company will make contributions and the aggregate amount of twenty 40 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:37,919 Speaker 1: million to one or more charitable organizations that support the 41 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:40,240 Speaker 1: Me Too movement and equality for women in the workplace. 42 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: The filing knows, so it does actually seem like they're 43 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: suggesting it will be a joint donation from Moonvez and CBS, 44 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 1: but CBS might actually be the one that's picking up 45 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 1: the bill. According to this filing, it's really upsetting and 46 00:02:56,800 --> 00:03:00,640 Speaker 1: kind of a predatory, an interesting predatory, I don't know, 47 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 1: like a way to hide what you're doing. When if 48 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 1: Les moon Bez was supposedly this big advocate for me too, 49 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 1: it's almost a way of hiding behind that when you're 50 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 1: creep really, oh for sure. It does not surprised me 51 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:21,079 Speaker 1: at all that he was, you know, this vocal proponent 52 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:24,399 Speaker 1: of me too and was propping up commissions to investigate 53 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 1: sexual harassment in the workplace while actively sexually harassing women 54 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:31,079 Speaker 1: in the workplace. That's not surprising to me at all. 55 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 1: Just look at the former Attorney General of New York 56 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: who was a very vocal me too proponent while also 57 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 1: being terrible to women. You know, it doesn't surprise me 58 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 1: at all that he would be someone who is very 59 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 1: vocally supportive of this movement while also being a creep himself. 60 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 1: That doesn't surprise me. And it is a tactic that 61 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 1: I think abusers would use to sort of throw folks 62 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 1: off the trail and a sort of make them seem 63 00:03:57,160 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: like they are one of the good guys when they're 64 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 1: not well on a lesser on a lesser scale. It 65 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 1: kind of reminds me of when say, you're at a 66 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: bar and a guy approaches you and somehow it comes 67 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 1: up and he says, oh, I'm very very feminist, but 68 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 1: it's almost more of a way to like, oh, she'll 69 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 1: like this, like you're not really feminist, you just want 70 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 1: a girl to come home with you. Yeah. I have 71 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 1: this theory that men that use feminism to hit on women, 72 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:28,159 Speaker 1: what they actually mean is oh I like women with 73 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 1: short hair, or like oh I'm you know. It's like 74 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 1: I don't think they mean what they think it means. Sure, 75 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 1: that's a good theory. Um. There is one thing that 76 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:41,479 Speaker 1: we wanted to talk about that is sort of different 77 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 1: about Les Moonvez's case and his behavior, and it's that 78 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:51,279 Speaker 1: gender based harassment is not always sexual. That's exactly right. 79 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:56,159 Speaker 1: So these women alleged sexual harassment, groping, kissing, and meetings 80 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 1: that sort of thing. But when this story came out, 81 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 1: another wrinkle of it is the fact that he had 82 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:05,039 Speaker 1: been derailing the careers of women. That it sounds like 83 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: he just didn't like, you know, they were mouthy feminists, 84 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: they didn't kiss his ass, and that he was such 85 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: a powerful figure that he systematically derailed the careers of 86 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 1: these women that might have otherwise gone on to flourish, 87 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: and that this was a big part of how he 88 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 1: treated women during his tenure at CBS. And I feel 89 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: like this is something that can really get lost in 90 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 1: the me to mix that harassment doesn't have to be sexual, 91 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:30,720 Speaker 1: it doesn't have to be groping or kissing and things 92 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: like that. Sometimes it's powerful gate keeping men sabotaging and 93 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 1: derailing careers based on gender. And that's exactly what happened 94 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:44,600 Speaker 1: with two women, Janna Jackson and Linda Bloodworth Thomason. So, 95 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 1: first of all, if you haven't read Designing Women showrunner 96 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 1: Linda Bloodworth Thomason, her piece in the Hollywood Reporter called 97 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 1: not all harassment is sexual, you need to. It's it 98 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 1: should be like a requirement for this episode. Oh my god, yes, 99 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,720 Speaker 1: Like pause the episode and go read it. It's one 100 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:05,359 Speaker 1: of those pieces where my you know that that that 101 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:12,919 Speaker 1: um that sound effect that's in reggaeton musicorns. Yeah, I 102 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:17,280 Speaker 1: was my feminist air horns were blaring after every paragraph, 103 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: every paragraph I read, and in the back of my 104 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 1: mind I was hearing because it was so good. Yeah, 105 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 1: and it's it's so good that it was a struggle 106 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 1: not to include the entire essay in this podcast. Yeah, 107 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: the episode could it has been us dramatically reading this 108 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 1: podcast with air horns sound effects, and I would have 109 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 1: been happy with the podcast that we've Maybe that could 110 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 1: be a bonus episode because that sounds like at a 111 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 1: reggaeton beat. Yes, yes, it'll it'll be the it'll be 112 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 1: the hot it'll be the hottest song in the club. 113 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 1: For like eight people who go to the club to 114 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:56,679 Speaker 1: hear feminist essays read over music. Two of us included, 115 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:00,120 Speaker 1: well Beyonce did it kind of true? Oh my, have 116 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 1: a remix of of a Beyonce song instead of we 117 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 1: should all be feminists this essay, I am here for it. 118 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 1: Just listen to this opening line. This is not going 119 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 1: to be the article you might be expecting about Les 120 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 1: moonvest It's not going to be wise or inspiring it's 121 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 1: going to be petty and punishing. In spite of my 122 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 1: proper Southern mother's admonition to always be gracious, I am 123 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 1: all out of grace when it comes to Mr Moonvesz. 124 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: In fact, like a lot of women in Hollywood, I 125 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 1: am happy to dance on his professional grade. And not 126 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 1: just any dance. This will be the macarena, the rumbach, 127 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 1: the moonwalk. You get the idea. I do get the idea. 128 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: It's so good. Also, can I say, because she is 129 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 1: the former showrunner of Designing Women, I don't know if 130 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 1: you'll ever watch Designing Women. This reads like a Julius 131 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 1: sugar Baker monologue. So if you watch that show, you 132 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 1: know the women were prone to, you know, feisty feminist rants. 133 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 1: I in my mind, Julius sugar Baker is reading this 134 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 1: and and with and you will never alter drapes in 135 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 1: Atlanta Again. If you watch Deciding Women, you get that reference. 136 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 1: You don't, You're confused, but trust me, it's great. And 137 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 1: all the while, there's the there's the hip hop horn. 138 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 1: This is a whole thing. We're creative. We need to 139 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 1: find Dixie Carter, the woman who played Julia sugar Baker, Delta, 140 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 1: Burke Beyonce, get them together, get a producer on it, 141 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: and and make this track. I'm telling you it will 142 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 1: be a banger. I think they're going to be. We're 143 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 1: not gonna have any trouble getting them on board at all, 144 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:36,840 Speaker 1: not at all. If you're wondering, if you're not sure, um, 145 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 1: what's going on here? What Linda Bloodworth Thomason is talking about. 146 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 1: She's writing about how Moonvest systematically boxed her and other 147 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:48,199 Speaker 1: women lad shows out of CBS. She writes, I was 148 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 1: never sexually harassed, are attacked by lesmon Bez. My encounters 149 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:55,199 Speaker 1: were much more subtle in gendering a different kind of destruction. 150 00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:59,840 Speaker 1: Was given the largest writing and producing contract in the 151 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 1: history of CBS. It was for fifty million, involving five 152 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 1: new series, with hefty penalties for each pilot not picked up. 153 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 1: So after Moonves became president of CBS Entertainment, the network 154 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 1: didn't pick up any of her pilots. She writes. Often, 155 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 1: if he would catch me in the parking lot, he 156 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 1: would make sure to tell me that my script was 157 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 1: one of the best he had ever read, but that 158 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 1: he decided in the end not to do it. It 159 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 1: always seemed like he enjoyed telling me this. That's such 160 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 1: a sleazy move to go up to her and say, oh, 161 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: you almost had it, honey, but I changed. I decided 162 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:37,320 Speaker 1: to go in another direction. I can sort of see 163 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 1: how that was meant to keep her hanging on and 164 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 1: hoping and fighting and wondering is it I mean, that's 165 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:46,959 Speaker 1: almost like a it's almost like gaslighting, Like that probably 166 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 1: made her wonder, you know, is it me? Like what 167 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 1: am I doing? But if that was his tactic, that's 168 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 1: like a way to keep her always always holding out 169 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:58,200 Speaker 1: hope that you know this time is going to be it. Yeah, 170 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:01,560 Speaker 1: something on a much smaller gale. But similar happened to 171 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:04,439 Speaker 1: me once where I um, I had gotten a pretty 172 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:08,560 Speaker 1: decent for me role in a pretty big movie, and 173 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 1: the night I got there to shoot it, they had 174 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 1: me like waiting and watching somebody rehearse it over and 175 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:15,559 Speaker 1: over again, and it was really cold night, and it 176 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:18,319 Speaker 1: was late an hour's past and I'm kind of wondering 177 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 1: what's happening, and um, Eventually the assistant director came up 178 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 1: to me and he said, you know, I've been thinking 179 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 1: about it, and I really think we should give this 180 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 1: to the male stunt guy, and then he said something like, um, 181 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:36,080 Speaker 1: isn't it isn't it difficult to work in an industry 182 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 1: that's all about your looks? And then they made me 183 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:43,319 Speaker 1: watch them film it. It was awful. What an ass? 184 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:47,719 Speaker 1: I know, like, that's what I'm saying. I think that 185 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 1: even so, that's so that sounds like it was a 186 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 1: very clearly gender base said it was about making you 187 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 1: internalize that you were not good enough in some way. 188 00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 1: And I guess that's my point is that you know 189 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 1: this is this is gender based harassment. It may not 190 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:09,080 Speaker 1: be sexual, but it is so toxic and pervasive and 191 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 1: it can really get in your head. And this we 192 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 1: should be interested in fostering workplaces where employees and people 193 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 1: who are on projects feel safe and secure and that 194 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 1: they don't feel like at any minute there's going to 195 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 1: be you know, um mind for them to walk on that. 196 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:29,200 Speaker 1: You know, we should be promoting workplaces that feel safe 197 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 1: and people feel supported. And when you when you're in 198 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:33,840 Speaker 1: a workplace where it sounds like this this movie set was, 199 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 1: or you're constantly being reminded that there's someone else who 200 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 1: could do your job and making you watch this happen, 201 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 1: you know that's that does not set up a workplace 202 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 1: where you feel safe. And it's even harder when you're 203 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: a woman, because you're already marginalized, so you're already feel 204 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 1: like you have a target on your back, and then 205 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 1: having to endure this, you know, it's just it's just 206 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 1: not good. I mean, it's not sexual harassment, but it's 207 00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 1: so so toxic and it can really just mess you up. 208 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 1: I mean that if I had gone through what you 209 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 1: just described, I would have been mortified. I would have 210 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 1: been that would have it would have knocked my confidence 211 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 1: for so long. And again, who knows what the impact 212 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 1: that has on your career long term, right, And I 213 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 1: I just remember being in such shock, and I was 214 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:24,200 Speaker 1: so cold, and I had to like walk back to 215 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:27,440 Speaker 1: the room with all the other actors and crew, and 216 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 1: they asked me what happened? Why aren't you doing it? 217 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 1: And I couldn't. I almost couldn't find the words. I 218 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:34,960 Speaker 1: just went home and cried. And it was such a 219 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,560 Speaker 1: miserable because that was a big deal for me, that 220 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:41,200 Speaker 1: that role was a big deal. And then the night 221 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 1: of for them to say no, I'll just give it 222 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 1: to this guy who's never rehearsed. I had to go 223 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 1: to like all of these rehearsals and anyway, Um, and 224 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 1: it's I won't be late at the point, but it's 225 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:57,560 Speaker 1: it's such a it's so disrespectful. It's disrespectful of you 226 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 1: as a professional. It's disrespectful of your time, time and 227 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: the value that you put into your craft. You would 228 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 1: have been rehearsing, you you were physically there when this 229 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 1: decision was made. I mean, it's it's just so disrespectful. 230 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 1: It's just and it just cultivates this climate of gender 231 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 1: based disrespect that I think is I think as women, 232 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 1: this that probably sounds familiar to a lot of women listening, right, 233 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 1: this idea that someone would make this seemingly flippant choice 234 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 1: and it would just be this upholding of gross, disrespectful, 235 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 1: toxic bolshon that we find in workplaces as women. And 236 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 1: I hate it. It It makes it makes my skin crawl. 237 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: It makes my skin crawl as well. And um, it 238 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:46,320 Speaker 1: sounds like before Moonvez took over at CBS, the network 239 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 1: was a better place to work, or at least it 240 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:54,079 Speaker 1: had launched a number of groundbreaking feminist TV shows, including 241 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:58,440 Speaker 1: the Mary Tyler Moore Show, Maud and Murphy Brown. But 242 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:01,559 Speaker 1: bloodworth Thomasin points out that Moonvez ushered in the c 243 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 1: s I era, which is basically shows about women being 244 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 1: victimized by men. Though I have to say I do 245 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 1: love me some Law and Order which is on NBC. 246 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 1: Uh so a little bit of a problematic faith there. 247 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 1: I agree, I agree with her assessment, but I have 248 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 1: to say, like, I don't want anyone calling me out 249 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 1: on Twitter when that when I'm tweeting about how much 250 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 1: I love Law and Order because it is my guilty pleasure. 251 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 1: She says that she doesn't know what happened to all 252 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 1: the women lad shows at CBS, but she writes, I 253 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 1: just know that the likes of them have rarely been 254 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 1: seen on that network. Again thanks to Les Moonvess, I 255 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 1: can only guess they all became vastional swabs in crime 256 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 1: labs on c s I Amarillo, which is again a 257 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 1: pretty good line. That's that's epic. Yeah, to make matters worse. 258 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 1: When she left CBS, blood Worth Thomason said Moonvez agreed 259 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 1: to pay only a fraction of the penalties due for 260 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 1: failing to pick up her pilots. When her agent asked 261 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 1: the executive what he should tell his client, she said 262 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 1: Moonves replied, tell her to go for herself. Oh, and 263 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 1: I think it sort of needs to be said that 264 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: part of me wonders, you know, maybe this is just 265 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 1: the industry. This is just Hollywood. This is how it works. 266 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 1: It's all it's all games, and it's all mind games, 267 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 1: and it's all business and it's all weeling and dealing. 268 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 1: But this is not okay. The way that she is 269 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 1: a legend, that he treated her is not okay. And 270 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 1: I think that as long as we use platitudes like that, like, oh, 271 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: it's just business, it's just Hollywood, we're making it okay 272 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 1: to treat people, oftentimes women, and people love color, and 273 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 1: people who are marginalized in these fields. We're making it 274 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 1: okay to treat them like garbage. And we're saying it's 275 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: okay to have to cultivate an industry that, you know, 276 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter how you treat people. It doesn't matter. 277 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 1: You know, if you were contractually obligated to pay X 278 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 1: and you're just not going to pay it because you're 279 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 1: a big deal and you can do that and you're 280 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 1: the head of this network and blah blah blah. We're 281 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: cultivating atmospheres where that's okay. And we should be better 282 00:15:57,720 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 1: than that. You know, I think that. I mean I 283 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 1: saw a lot people on Twitter saying like, oh, well, 284 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 1: that's just the hostess Hollywood, it's just business. I don't 285 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 1: think that's a good excuse for what's happening here. And 286 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: like we mentioned earlier, those those fines are not picking 287 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 1: up the pilots were hefty. Those are big a lot 288 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 1: of money there. And if you can only imagine if 289 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 1: Les bon Vez is one of the reasons that her 290 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 1: pilots didn't get picked up and then she's having to 291 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 1: pay the fine for it, that's ridiculous and a huge 292 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 1: that's a huge deal for your career. Absolutely, absolutely, and 293 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 1: again think about where she would be now if this 294 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 1: hadn't happened like she she flat out says that he 295 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 1: derailed her career and that people, you know, one of 296 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: the lines and her essay that we're gonna get to 297 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 1: is she says, people always ask what happened to you, 298 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 1: and she says, Les Moonvesz happened to me. Think about 299 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 1: where she would be right now. She could have a 300 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 1: room full of Emmy's if this one guy hadn't decided 301 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 1: to throw a wrench and her and the entire trajectory 302 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 1: of her career, which up until that point had been 303 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:07,680 Speaker 1: very successful. And she says that she wasn't her asked 304 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 1: by Moonbez in a sexual way, but she did hear 305 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:14,359 Speaker 1: word of his inappropriate behavior. Um quote. I began to 306 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 1: hear from female CBS employees about his mercurial, misogynist behavior 307 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:21,400 Speaker 1: with actresses being ushered in and out of his office. 308 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:24,680 Speaker 1: His mantra, I was told was why would I want 309 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:27,239 Speaker 1: to cast him if I don't want to come? And 310 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 1: he was an angry bully who enjoyed telling people I 311 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:32,959 Speaker 1: will tear off the top of your head and piss 312 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:36,959 Speaker 1: on your brain. That's just disturbing. That is a boss 313 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 1: you do not want. Yeah. Can you imagine if your 314 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:41,680 Speaker 1: boss said that to you or like that, you would 315 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 1: heard that that was something that he that he um 316 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 1: other people. Yeah, I would think that this is going 317 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:52,879 Speaker 1: to turn into I've seen too many horror movies, but 318 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:54,880 Speaker 1: I would think it was going to be a horror movie. 319 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 1: And I don't need this guy anywhere near me. Yeah. 320 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 1: It just sounds like he's someone who had a knack 321 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:05,400 Speaker 1: for saying really gross things in he said quote when 322 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:07,919 Speaker 1: I first got to CBS, the sexiest woman on the 323 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:11,359 Speaker 1: network was Angela Landsberry. But fortunately we're doing a little 324 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: better than that now. Gross. What a jerk. And another 325 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:23,720 Speaker 1: quote from Thomason's essay is also particularly horrible. She writes, 326 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 1: soon I would hear how he had invited a famous 327 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 1: actress to launch in the CBS dining room. Coming off 328 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:32,240 Speaker 1: the cancelation of her iconic detective show, the star began 329 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 1: pitching a new one. He informed her that she was 330 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 1: too old to be on his network. She began to 331 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:39,399 Speaker 1: cry and stood up to go. He stood up to 332 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 1: taking her by the shoulders and telling her, I can't 333 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:45,920 Speaker 1: let you leave like this. She reacted suddenly touched. Then 334 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:48,879 Speaker 1: he shoved his tongue down earth throat. I know this 335 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 1: happened because the stars of the person who told me, 336 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 1: oh that. Just when I read that, I was enraged, 337 00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 1: and I did. I did have a moment where I 338 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 1: began trying to deduce who that might have been. But 339 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:06,879 Speaker 1: ultimately it doesn't matter, because it doesn't. Like that is 340 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 1: such a just a terrible, terrible, terrible way to treat anyone, 341 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:17,400 Speaker 1: but especially someone who is your employee like that, Like 342 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:20,960 Speaker 1: that is just I mean, can you imagine if that 343 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 1: had been you. Can you imagine the rollercoaster ride that 344 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:28,320 Speaker 1: your emotions would have been on. Yeah, that would have 345 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:33,199 Speaker 1: been It would have been miserable. Um again, I have 346 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 1: a story that's kind of similar but not as bad, 347 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 1: where I like had a role and it was a 348 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 1: really good role. But then the producer he asked me 349 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 1: out and I said no, and he was like, well, 350 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 1: I guess you know. Now it's awkward and we can't 351 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:50,639 Speaker 1: work together. And I was like okay, and he's and 352 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:54,920 Speaker 1: then like where we were going to leave? And he said, 353 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 1: you know, I think you do great work and I 354 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 1: would love to work with you again, maybe just not now. 355 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:03,399 Speaker 1: And I was like okay, and then he tried to 356 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:07,919 Speaker 1: kiss me. No, okay, we're never working together. Good all 357 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:11,920 Speaker 1: right now, I know. But that again, Why should you 358 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 1: lose an economic opportunity and a professional opportunity because of 359 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 1: his penis? Why why I don't think I should? I 360 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 1: don't think I should, but alas, I don't make the rules. 361 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:27,400 Speaker 1: I'm trying to change the rules, but I don't make 362 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 1: the rules. Oh my god, this is yeah. I'm so angry. 363 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 1: Yeah we're not We're like not even to the first advict. 364 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 1: Thomason basically says that Les Moonves blackballed and derailed her 365 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 1: career and the careers of other women, all because he 366 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:49,879 Speaker 1: didn't like those malodi feminists on TV. Quote. Over the years, 367 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:52,159 Speaker 1: even when an actress managed to get one of my 368 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:55,159 Speaker 1: scripts through an agent, the deal would immediately be killed. 369 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 1: It was like a personal vendetta. And I will never 370 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 1: know why. Was it because I was championing the New 371 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:05,480 Speaker 1: South or an admittedly aggressive feminist agenda or both. When 372 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 1: the legendary Bette Midler informed Moonbez that she wanted to 373 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,440 Speaker 1: do a series with me, I'm told he denied her request. 374 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:15,440 Speaker 1: When the singer Huey Lewis, whom Les had become enamored with, 375 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 1: chose me to write a pilot for him, his contract 376 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 1: was canceled. It would have been so easy not to 377 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:24,400 Speaker 1: mention honorable, to simply tell me he was never going 378 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 1: to put a show of mine on air. That was 379 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 1: certainly his right, But instead he kept me hopping and hoping. 380 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:32,640 Speaker 1: When I finally realized he was never going to put 381 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 1: a show of mine on the air, I left. It 382 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:37,000 Speaker 1: was never really about the money anyway. I just wanted 383 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 1: to work. People ask me for years? Where have you been? 384 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:42,159 Speaker 1: What happened to you? Les? Moon Beez happened to me? 385 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 1: M And I guess that's what it all comes down 386 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 1: to for me, is that, you know, where would her 387 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 1: career be if he had just said, listen, you're not 388 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:54,720 Speaker 1: my cup of tea. The shows that you put on 389 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:56,720 Speaker 1: are not for me. It's not gonna be I don't 390 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 1: see it for with this network. I'm sorry, she said. 391 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 1: It sounds like she would have just packed up and left, 392 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:03,199 Speaker 1: she would have found someplace else to work. But he 393 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:07,160 Speaker 1: never did that. He just kept her hoping and calling 394 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:09,679 Speaker 1: and working and probably internalizing, you know, was this me? Like? 395 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 1: What am I doing wrong? I thought I was good 396 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 1: at this. That probably went on for years and years 397 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 1: until she wise up and realized it's not me, it's him. 398 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:20,119 Speaker 1: This is his thing. And yeah, it's just think of 399 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 1: all the time that she wasted. We didn't include it 400 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 1: in the episode today, but she describes this sort of 401 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,400 Speaker 1: charm campaign that she waged. You know, she talks about 402 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 1: how she was voted most popular in high school and 403 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,120 Speaker 1: that she figured, certainly she could figure out a way 404 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 1: to charm charm this guy, and so she would be 405 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 1: really nice and really she really tried to work with him, 406 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:46,120 Speaker 1: and nothing that she did was going to convince him 407 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:48,200 Speaker 1: to put a show of hers on the air. And 408 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 1: just keeping her hanging on for so long when she 409 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: could have been out flourishing on another network, out developing 410 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 1: new things, out working, I just think is so messed up, 411 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 1: and it really, it just it makes me sad. It 412 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 1: makes me sad that we as women, particularly women who 413 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:08,359 Speaker 1: are creatives, have to put up with this, that this 414 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 1: is something that we have to put up with in 415 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 1: the industry. And I don't think it's fair. It's cruel, 416 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 1: and um, it's sadistic. It's it's it's almost it's almost 417 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 1: like a a sadistic head game. Like she says, why 418 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 1: didn't he just tell me it wasn't gonna work alculmate 419 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,440 Speaker 1: this network? Because that's not a head game. That's not 420 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:30,879 Speaker 1: that's not a power trip. A power trip is keeping 421 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:36,400 Speaker 1: somebody trying to impress you, keeping someone hoping I'm calling 422 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,639 Speaker 1: and working for a long time. That's a power trip. 423 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 1: Just honorably saying it's not going to work out, just 424 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:44,440 Speaker 1: so you know, that's not a power trip. And it's 425 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:50,679 Speaker 1: about power absolutely, and Thompson isn't alone. The reporting on 426 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,639 Speaker 1: Les moon Vez's out stair at CBS also unveiled a 427 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 1: new wrinkle that he waged a campaign against Janet Jackson 428 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 1: following the infamous Super Bowl wardrobe malfunction, which we'll get 429 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:15,199 Speaker 1: into after a quick break forward from our sponsor and 430 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: we're back. Thank you sponsor. So I should just say 431 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 1: right off the bat before we get into talking about 432 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,919 Speaker 1: Shanna Jackson, I am a Jana Jackson super fan, So 433 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:31,440 Speaker 1: full disclosure. You might be thinking, Wow, I just want 434 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 1: everyone to know that we're all on the same page. 435 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:36,200 Speaker 1: I am a huge Shanna Jackson fan. That might color 436 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 1: how I feel about a little bit of what went 437 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 1: down on this situation. I just want folks to know, 438 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:45,200 Speaker 1: just straight up, Yeah, my my color things a bit, uh, 439 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:51,119 Speaker 1: But you're being an upfront and professional podcaster, Thank you. So. 440 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 1: According to a piece and the Huffington Post by yashar Alie, 441 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 1: Moonvez had a personal vendetta against Shanna Jackson and vowed 442 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 1: to destroy her career after her breast was exposed for 443 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 1: nine sixteenth of a second during the Super Bowl halftime 444 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:08,199 Speaker 1: show The justin Timberlake in two thousand four. Do you 445 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 1: remember that um I do remember that. I didn't watch it, 446 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 1: but I remember people talking about it afterwards. Yeah, I 447 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 1: remember watching it live because I loved Janet Jackson and 448 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 1: always have and always will because she's a queen. So 449 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 1: of course I watched that performance. Um, and then afterward 450 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 1: we went we went on her. Um My whole family, 451 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:29,200 Speaker 1: like went to her concert when she came to play 452 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 1: at Hampton Roads in Virginia when I was growing up. 453 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 1: But in case you've forgotten, people were outraged by this nipple. 454 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 1: America Online, who suponsored the halftime show, demanded a refund 455 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 1: of the nine point three million, and in a a pay 456 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,920 Speaker 1: to do so. Several private citizens even fouled their own 457 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,399 Speaker 1: lawsuits against the broadcaster. At the horror of seeing a 458 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,639 Speaker 1: nipple for you know that amount of time, Heaven forbid 459 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 1: we see we be exposed to a nipple. I mean, 460 00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 1: my god, can you imagine I'm scarred for life. I'll 461 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 1: never recover exactly exactly, might need therapy for that. One 462 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 1: Tennessee woman even filed a class action lawsuit on behalf 463 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:09,120 Speaker 1: of quote, all American citizens who watched the outrageous conduct. 464 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 1: Oh whoa, I mean, there's outrageous conduct at the Super Bowl, 465 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 1: But I would say it's not that CBS and MTV, 466 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,360 Speaker 1: a subsidiary of Viacom, the parent company of CBS at 467 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,639 Speaker 1: the time, which produced the halftime show, based a torrent 468 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 1: of criticism in a five hundred and fifty thousand FCC fine. Now, 469 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 1: to be clear, both Jackson and Timberlake say that this 470 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,879 Speaker 1: was a legit accident. You might remember the phrase wardrobe 471 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,640 Speaker 1: malfunction being used to describe what happened during their routine. 472 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,680 Speaker 1: Timberlake was meant to tear away the leather, exposing a 473 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:45,359 Speaker 1: red lace brawl underneath a leather boostier, but instead he 474 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 1: accidentally ripped away everything, exposing her breast. But Moonvez didn't 475 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,199 Speaker 1: buy this and thought it was an intentional ploy to 476 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 1: stir controversy. He banned both Timberlake and Jackson from the 477 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:03,639 Speaker 1: two thousand four Grammys. Timber Lake issued a tearful apology 478 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 1: to Moonvez and was unbanned and invited to perform Alie 479 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 1: writes that the CBS chief executive was furious that Jackson 480 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 1: didn't make a similarly contrite apology to him. The fallout 481 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 1: from the incident inflicted significant damage on Jackson's career, which 482 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,679 Speaker 1: until that point had produced ten number one hits and 483 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 1: still reverberates to this day. This really kills me because 484 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 1: I think that the popular narrative around this whole situation 485 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 1: is that after the Super Bowl Janet Jackson was so 486 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:38,640 Speaker 1: ashamed and disgraced by what happened that she retreated from 487 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 1: the public limelight and that you know, that's you know, 488 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,959 Speaker 1: she sort of went into hiding or something. That is 489 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,480 Speaker 1: not true. She continued to make albums, She continued to 490 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 1: make music, She continued to be her super talented, amazing 491 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 1: self and put out hit after hit after hit or not. 492 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 1: Guess they weren't hits, but they were hits in my heart. 493 00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:04,440 Speaker 1: They were um. But her career was intentionally sidelined by 494 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 1: Les Moonvest. So people, I think that the popular narrative 495 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,919 Speaker 1: is that she retreated from the limelight, and she didn't. 496 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 1: Her career was. She was just being blackballed by this 497 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: one asshole and one weird side note. Moonvez's wife Julie Chen, 498 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 1: who just stepped down from her role on the talk 499 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:26,160 Speaker 1: following lesmon Vezza's alistair, said Janet never apologized for the incident. 500 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:30,480 Speaker 1: She says that both parties would have been fine had 501 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 1: they both apologized, and that Justin apologized and that she didn't. 502 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,200 Speaker 1: Here's what she had to say. Their camps were all told, 503 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:39,680 Speaker 1: you have to just come out and apologize for what happened, 504 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 1: and you'll be on the Grammys the following week. One 505 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 1: person apologized, one person did, and that following week Justin 506 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 1: Timberlike who apologized, performed at the Grammys, and Janet Jackson 507 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 1: did not. But Jannet Jackson actually did apologize. She went 508 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 1: on TV and apologized. So here's a listen. And unfortunately 509 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 1: the whole thing went wrong in the end. I am 510 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 1: really sorry if I offended anyone. That was truly not 511 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 1: my intention. Yeah, it does sort of sound like that 512 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:18,120 Speaker 1: Julie Chen was sticking up for her husband and CBS 513 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 1: and sort of rewriting history and saying that Jackson never 514 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 1: apologized when you know she absolutely, verifiably did. It does 515 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 1: sound that way, and Alice says that Moonvez ordered Viacom properties, 516 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 1: VH one and MTV and all Viacom owned radio stations 517 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 1: stopped playing Jackson songs and music videos, and the move 518 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,760 Speaker 1: had a huge impact on sales of her album Demita Joe, 519 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 1: which was released in March two thousand four, just a 520 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,200 Speaker 1: month after the Super Bowl, which, by the way, after 521 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 1: putting together the notes for this episode, I listened to 522 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 1: that album and it slaps a good album and it 523 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 1: tanked because of less one Vez, Bridget, You've got to 524 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 1: calm known. I know. I mean, I will, I will. 525 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 1: There are a few people that I will defend to 526 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 1: the death, and Janet Jackson is one of them. I 527 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,280 Speaker 1: love it. Yeah. Side note, I used to always tell 528 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,080 Speaker 1: my friends, if anything ever happens to me, like if 529 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:22,080 Speaker 1: I get killed or something like that, in lieu of 530 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 1: a funeral, please pass a local organance that says that 531 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,720 Speaker 1: all dance clubs in DC at midnight on my birthday 532 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 1: have to play Janet Jackson's Together Again and you can 533 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:34,760 Speaker 1: dance as wild as you want and nobody can ever 534 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 1: get thrown. Now it will be like, um, Jackson, you 535 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 1: can just do whatever you want. There are no rules 536 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 1: dancing wise dancing. I mean, you can't kill a guy, 537 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 1: but you could, you know, stand at a table and 538 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 1: dance if that, If that's how you feel your body 539 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 1: needs to express itself. I love this, Bridget. I am 540 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 1: on board. Yeah, if anything ever happens to me, avenge 541 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 1: my death in that way please. I am on it. 542 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,840 Speaker 1: I'm on it. A be Nation reports that Demita Joe's 543 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:04,520 Speaker 1: low sales were in part because she was blacklisted by 544 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 1: clear Channel Communications, which at the time was owned by 545 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 1: Viacom MTB and CBS Radio, as well as subsequent radio 546 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,320 Speaker 1: stations that made it virtually impossible for Jackson to promote 547 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:18,240 Speaker 1: her album singles and music videos. And that is a 548 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: huge deal. She basically was not able to promote this 549 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 1: album at all. And I actually remember one of the 550 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:25,440 Speaker 1: reasons why we were able to go, like the whole 551 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 1: my whole family went to her concert for this album, 552 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 1: And one of the reasons why we were able to 553 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 1: go because the tickets were really cheap. But I remember 554 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 1: it was a rare family thing where the entire family 555 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:38,800 Speaker 1: and my cousins and stuff all went, and I think 556 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 1: we were only able to do that because the tickets 557 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 1: were kind of cheap. Um. Now, I have to say many, 558 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 1: myself very much included. I felt that Janet's career was 559 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 1: being installed because of the incident. While Justin was basically 560 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:55,320 Speaker 1: allowed to flourish timber Lake, I think it seemed to 561 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 1: kind of throw her under the bus. In in subsequent 562 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 1: interviews after this happened, He said, I looked at her. 563 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 1: They brought a towel up on stage. They covered her up. 564 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 1: I was completely embarrassed and just walked off stage as 565 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,400 Speaker 1: quickly as I could. He also said, I'm frustrated at 566 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 1: the whole situation. I'm frustrated that my character is being questioned. 567 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:18,040 Speaker 1: And the fact of the matter is, you know, I've 568 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 1: had a good year, a really good year, especially with 569 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 1: my music. So I can't help but notice that his 570 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 1: talking about her. You know, they brought a towel on 571 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 1: stage to cover her up. That just seems so dripping 572 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 1: in shame that she should be a shame, you know, 573 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 1: cover her up. I was so embarrassed. It really sort 574 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:41,080 Speaker 1: of distances his role in the whole thing and kind of, 575 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:43,400 Speaker 1: at least in my book, seems to put the entire 576 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 1: thing on her in a way that I just found 577 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 1: find really you know, shaving. Yeah, there were two people 578 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 1: involved in that situation, Timberlake, Sir, you did say two 579 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 1: years later, in two thousand and six, and my honest opinion, now, 580 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 1: I could have handled it better. I'm part of a 581 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,320 Speaker 1: community that consider themselves artists, and there was something I 582 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 1: could have done in her defense. That was more than 583 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 1: I realized, than I would have. But the other half 584 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 1: of me was like, wow, we still haven't found the 585 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 1: weapons of mass destruction and everybody cares about this. I 586 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 1: probably got ten percent of the blame, and that says 587 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 1: something about society. I think that America is harsher on women, 588 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 1: and I think that America is, you know, unfairly harsh 589 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 1: on ethnic people. Sorry, I shouldn't laugh, but it is 590 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 1: sort of like justin Timber late discovers racism. You know, 591 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:39,000 Speaker 1: it's like it's it's it's I shouldn't laugh because you 592 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 1: know better late than ever, but it is sort of funny. 593 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 1: He also says that he has quote made peace with Janet, 594 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:50,800 Speaker 1: which fine, but in my obviously very biased book, since 595 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:53,920 Speaker 1: he didn't use his recent Super Bowl performance to like 596 00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:57,520 Speaker 1: bring Jannet Jackson out, give her a heartfelt and public 597 00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:01,480 Speaker 1: and meaningful apology, and then sit quietly while she performed 598 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:06,240 Speaker 1: you know, five deep cut songs from her hat catalog. 599 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:09,880 Speaker 1: I will always be sus of Timber like this, in 600 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 1: my personal opinion, I know people like him. People are 601 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:13,719 Speaker 1: not gonna like that. I've said that, but I don't 602 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 1: know this happens up publicly, whether or not he's privately 603 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:22,000 Speaker 1: made peace with her, whatever that means. Until he publicly 604 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:26,240 Speaker 1: says I'm sorry for what happened to you, I will 605 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,319 Speaker 1: always kind of be anti timber Lake a little bit 606 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:34,239 Speaker 1: that what you just described as a super Bowl midtime 607 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:36,239 Speaker 1: halftime show. I never watched the super Bowl that I 608 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:40,000 Speaker 1: would tune in for, right same, We're just coming up 609 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,840 Speaker 1: with all kinds of good content ideas in this episode 610 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 1: we are. Eli alleges now that Janet's career setbacks were 611 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:54,720 Speaker 1: an intentional thing that Moonvez engineered. Ellie writes, seven years 612 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,239 Speaker 1: after the two four incident, Moonvez told several sources he 613 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:00,360 Speaker 1: was furious when he found out Jackson At signed a 614 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,400 Speaker 1: book deal with Simon and Schuster for her book True You, 615 00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,600 Speaker 1: A Journey to Finding and Loving Yourself. Simon Schuster is 616 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 1: owned by the CBS Corporation. Quote how the did she 617 00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 1: slip through? Moonvez asked, while recounting the story to a 618 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:15,759 Speaker 1: source who spoke to me. He told another source that 619 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:19,799 Speaker 1: heads were going to roll as a result of the deal. Yeah, 620 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,279 Speaker 1: so you can kind of see how, you know, this 621 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,920 Speaker 1: wasn't just something where she was so ashamed by her 622 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:28,920 Speaker 1: boob being out for you know, a hot second, that 623 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:31,799 Speaker 1: she retreated from public life, that this actually was an 624 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:37,840 Speaker 1: intentional stalling of her career by Les Moonvest. According to reporting, 625 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:39,920 Speaker 1: he bragged about it, and it was a thing that 626 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:42,759 Speaker 1: he that people knew that that was his, that was 627 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:47,120 Speaker 1: his vendetta, and that he held this vendetta for years. 628 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:49,319 Speaker 1: I mean the book that you just mentioned that came 629 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:53,560 Speaker 1: out in eleven, that's years later. Years later, he's still 630 00:35:53,560 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 1: talking about Shannon Jackson. I knows how to hold a grudge. Seriously. Yeah, 631 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:02,400 Speaker 1: we have a little bit more for you, but first 632 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:04,400 Speaker 1: we're gonna pause for one more quick break for a 633 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:18,640 Speaker 1: word from our sponsor, m and we're back, Thank you, sponsor. So, 634 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:23,640 Speaker 1: in conclusion, this whole thing is a great case study 635 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:28,200 Speaker 1: for the fact that gender based harassment is not always sexual. 636 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:32,840 Speaker 1: Linda Bloodworth Thomas and alleges that Les Moonvez just didn't 637 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:37,280 Speaker 1: like the quote loud mouth speeches women made on designing women. 638 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,880 Speaker 1: He also tried to stomp out Janet Jackson's career because 639 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:46,960 Speaker 1: she wasn't apologetic enough following her wardrobe malfunction. Yeah, exactly. 640 00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:49,240 Speaker 1: Gender based harassment can look like a lot of things. 641 00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:52,200 Speaker 1: Sometimes it is sexual, harassment, But sometimes it's a man 642 00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:55,480 Speaker 1: sort of trying to black ball your career because you're 643 00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:57,919 Speaker 1: the kind of woman he doesn't like. Sometimes it's being 644 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:01,719 Speaker 1: mistreated systematically in a workplace. It doesn't always have to 645 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 1: be groping and kissing for it to be wrong and 646 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:08,080 Speaker 1: for it to have a real negative impact on your career. Yeah, 647 00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:12,600 Speaker 1: and unfortunately, I think it's something that happens all too often. 648 00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:16,960 Speaker 1: So if this is something that's happened to you, listeners, 649 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:21,880 Speaker 1: please right in let us know. And this brings us 650 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:27,959 Speaker 1: to listener mail. Sarah wrote, I live in former Swaziland, 651 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,680 Speaker 1: a small country in southern Africa. Here people are addressed 652 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:35,359 Speaker 1: by familial relationships, whether you're related or not, rather than 653 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:38,120 Speaker 1: marital status. I'll save you the trouble of pronouncing the 654 00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:41,520 Speaker 1: siswatty words, but it's a fairly simple formula. A man 655 00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:44,279 Speaker 1: your age or younger is brother. A man older than 656 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,120 Speaker 1: you was father, A much older man is grandfather, and 657 00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:49,600 Speaker 1: the same applies for women. With sister and mother and grandmother, 658 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:53,840 Speaker 1: you will typically be upgraded a problematic word choice, I know, 659 00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,840 Speaker 1: from sister or brother to mother or father upon getting 660 00:37:56,840 --> 00:38:00,680 Speaker 1: married and or having children, whichever comes first, but both 661 00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:04,520 Speaker 1: men and women switch over after marriage rather than only 662 00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:08,080 Speaker 1: the women. Also, you can still be mother or father 663 00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:10,680 Speaker 1: even if you've never been married or have no children. 664 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:14,000 Speaker 1: It's just a culturally respectful title based on your relative 665 00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:18,040 Speaker 1: age to whomever is addressing you. Well, this is fascinating. 666 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:21,560 Speaker 1: We this was in response to our recent classic episode 667 00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:29,200 Speaker 1: of MS mrs all of that confusion and how it's 668 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:31,799 Speaker 1: different in other countries. So Sarah, thank you so much 669 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:35,479 Speaker 1: for sending us this. This is it's really fascinating. Yeah. 670 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:37,399 Speaker 1: I like that you could be mother or father even 671 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:39,319 Speaker 1: if you don't have kids. That sort of reminds me 672 00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:42,960 Speaker 1: of how basically every adult that is close to my 673 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:45,920 Speaker 1: parents as my aunt or uncle, even they are not 674 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:50,200 Speaker 1: technically my heart. Yeah. I have so many relatives like that. Like, 675 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:52,960 Speaker 1: I know that's not what you are, but that's what 676 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:57,680 Speaker 1: I'm calling you exactly exactly. Victoria wrote, I am getting 677 00:38:57,719 --> 00:38:59,680 Speaker 1: married at the end of September and have really pondered 678 00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:02,239 Speaker 1: up at to take my future husband's name. We are 679 00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:04,960 Speaker 1: not traditional. My fiance did not ask my dad for 680 00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:07,320 Speaker 1: my hand, nor am I having my father walked me 681 00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:09,480 Speaker 1: down the aisle as I am deciding to marry. No 682 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:12,239 Speaker 1: one is giving me away. My dad just gets to 683 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:14,920 Speaker 1: sit back and relax in a big day. I decided 684 00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:17,279 Speaker 1: to take my husband's name one. I come from a 685 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:19,239 Speaker 1: large family, and my name is at no risk of 686 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:22,239 Speaker 1: dying out to My last name is very generic. You 687 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:24,320 Speaker 1: could probably guess it in two or three tries, and 688 00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:26,920 Speaker 1: I don't feel a strong connection to it. My husband's 689 00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:29,200 Speaker 1: family is much smaller, and I absolutely love his family, 690 00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:32,280 Speaker 1: especially as paternal grandmother. She has such a strong connection 691 00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:34,799 Speaker 1: to our history and has passed down such a rich 692 00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:37,400 Speaker 1: oral history of their family to me. So the idea 693 00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:39,960 Speaker 1: of taking their name isn't something that threatens my feminist 694 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:43,520 Speaker 1: nature at all. Secondly, on the travel alone episode, I 695 00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:46,839 Speaker 1: enjoy traveling alone and my fiance has encouraged this. He 696 00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:50,000 Speaker 1: thinks that demonstrates strength and it also gives us unshared 697 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:52,719 Speaker 1: experiences that we can talk about even when we've been 698 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:56,640 Speaker 1: together for a long time. Wow, that is an aspect 699 00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:58,960 Speaker 1: of traveling alone that I hadn't even considered that. If 700 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:04,400 Speaker 1: you're inner romantic really lationship, having intentionally solo experiences can 701 00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:07,160 Speaker 1: sort of keep your relationship interesting and give you something 702 00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:09,319 Speaker 1: to talk about and give you something to bond with 703 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:12,600 Speaker 1: your partner over even though you didn't share those experiences. 704 00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:16,279 Speaker 1: That's a really interesting kind of sweet thing. I hadn't 705 00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:20,520 Speaker 1: even thought of that. Yeah, that, Um, I love that 706 00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:22,640 Speaker 1: because it's true if you've been in a relationship for 707 00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:25,400 Speaker 1: a long time, and I mean I've only the longest 708 00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:29,160 Speaker 1: relationship I was in was for three years. But I 709 00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:31,719 Speaker 1: was glad that when we did things separately, it was 710 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:34,399 Speaker 1: kind of a chance to recharge and then have things 711 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:36,279 Speaker 1: to talk about because we've covered a lot of this 712 00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:39,160 Speaker 1: stuff already in those three years, and I can only 713 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:43,279 Speaker 1: imagine that as a longer relationship would have compounded that. 714 00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:45,200 Speaker 1: And I also love a lot of you have written 715 00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:49,120 Speaker 1: in about this last name changing thing, um having a 716 00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:55,080 Speaker 1: generic last name and feeling like no connection to it really, 717 00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:59,799 Speaker 1: which I thought was an interesting aspect to this whole conversation. 718 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,359 Speaker 1: Totally thank you for writing in, both of you, And 719 00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:06,359 Speaker 1: if folks want to write in themselves, where can they 720 00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:09,960 Speaker 1: do that? They can email us at mom Stuff at 721 00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:13,520 Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com, And as always, we're available 722 00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:16,279 Speaker 1: on social media on Instagram at Stuff I've Never Told 723 00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:19,520 Speaker 1: You and on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. And thank 724 00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:22,279 Speaker 1: you to our producer Andrew Howard, and thanks to you 725 00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:22,920 Speaker 1: for listening,