1 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 2: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 3 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 2: name is Robert Lamb, and on today's episode, I'm going 4 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 2: to be chatting with Adam Weyman, author of Lone Wolf 5 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:24,640 Speaker 2: Walking the Line Between Civilization and Wildness. It's all about 6 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 2: the European wolf. It's recent comeback in the similarities between 7 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 2: the human and lupine worlds. Without further ado, let's jump 8 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:36,840 Speaker 2: right in. Hi Adam, Welcome to the show. 9 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 3: Hi, rep thanks for having me on. 10 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 2: The new book is Lone Wolf Walking the Line between 11 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 2: Civilization and Wilderness, released as of June third and all 12 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 2: major formats. As you describe in the book. Your journey 13 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 2: began in covering the possible reintroduction of wolves into Scotland. 14 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 2: You'd written about this prior, so I thought you might 15 00:00:57,400 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 2: walk us through this first. What happened to the wolves 16 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 2: the British Isles and where do things stand now with 17 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:04,520 Speaker 2: their potential reintroduction? 18 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:07,320 Speaker 3: And what happened to the wolves of the British Isles 19 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 3: is pretty much the same that happened to the wolf 20 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 3: across its entire range. The wolf used to be, once 21 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 3: upon a time, the most widespread terrestrial land mammal on 22 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 3: the planet, all across the northern hemisphere, from the tundra 23 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 3: right down to the tropics and pretty much everywhere, including 24 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 3: in the British Isles. They were pushed almost to extinction 25 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 3: in the British Isles, completely eradicated. So there's a bunch 26 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 3: of last Wolf stories. It seems that they hung on 27 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:37,480 Speaker 3: in Scotland later than anywhere else. The last definitive account 28 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 3: for wolf in Scotland is sixteen twenty one, and that's 29 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:46,040 Speaker 3: a note for a bounty that was paid on a wolf. 30 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 3: But it was an exception your high sum, which suggests 31 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 3: by then that demand was already kind of outstripping supply. 32 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 3: And then it kind of verges into myth. There's a 33 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 3: lot of people that would like to claim they killed 34 00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 3: the last wolf, whereas actually, of course the last wolf 35 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 3: probably lived out it's days far from many one, profoundly 36 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 3: isolated and alone. 37 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:08,360 Speaker 2: Now you actually looked for the alleged remains of the 38 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 2: last wharf in Scotland, right. 39 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. So, like I said, it's very hard 40 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 3: to come by. There's one story that I followed, so 41 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 3: I began my journey in Scotland at in a state 42 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 3: up near in Verness, where this gentleman called Paul Lister 43 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 3: has been talking about trying to reintroduce now wolves now 44 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 3: for about twenty years or so. And I walked across 45 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 3: Scotland and finished it in the south of the Kengorm 46 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 3: mountain range. And that's one of the places where the 47 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 3: last wolf is meant to have been killed. And then, 48 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:39,119 Speaker 3: as you say, late, I said out trying to find 49 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 3: it because it is then meant to have been stuffed 50 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:45,640 Speaker 3: and had a various journey through different collections and museums, 51 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 3: but the actual provenance of it is now pretty hard 52 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 3: to locate. And really, through the course of research it 53 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 3: made me realize that this probably wasn't the last wolf 54 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 3: at all. This wolf that was being taken around these 55 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 3: museums in Scotland was being labeled as the last wolf 56 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:00,640 Speaker 3: in order to sell tickets, but really probably nothing of 57 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:00,959 Speaker 3: the sort. 58 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 2: And what about the reintroduction of the wolf into Scotland 59 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 2: or various other areas where the wolf is no longer present. 60 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 2: Where do we currently stand with that in terms of 61 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:17,080 Speaker 2: public sentiment and even like governmental opinion. 62 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 3: Well, one of the reasons that the wolf is so 63 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 3: good to write about is because people are incredibly passionate 64 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 3: about it from both sides. People love wolves or they 65 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 3: hate wolves, and you find very little in between, and 66 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 3: that's essentially where we are there. It's been noted in 67 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 3: the British Isles as the most popular animal for reintroduction. 68 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 3: But then you go and speak to people that would 69 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 3: be actually living alongside it. Once again, we have sheep 70 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 3: farmers in Scotland, hunters, gameskeepers, people like this, even people 71 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 3: that live in villages in the countryside, and there's this 72 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 3: reputation that the wolf has for better or worse, and 73 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 3: there are people that are very passionately against it as well. 74 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 3: It's interesting because in some ways it's quite an arbitrary 75 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 3: decision here wolves. As we're going to talk about wolves 76 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 3: are making this remarkable come back in Europe, and if 77 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 3: Britain was still connected by a land bridge to the 78 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 3: continent as it used to be a couple of hundred 79 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 3: thousand years ago, then there would be back. There would 80 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 3: be wolves back on the British Isles now, and we 81 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 3: wouldn't be having a debate about whether we're not to 82 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:17,479 Speaker 3: introduce them. We'd just be talking about how we deal 83 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 3: with them. But because we're in Ireland, we get to 84 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:24,160 Speaker 3: make these particular decisions about what we let in and 85 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 3: realistically it's not going to happen here for a long time. 86 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:32,040 Speaker 3: It's taken about fifteen years of great debate to allow 87 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 3: the beaver to come back, and that's broadly accepted now. 88 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 3: But there's a lot of other species we'd see back before. 89 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:43,920 Speaker 3: Wolf is really really the pinnacle of Once wolves are back, 90 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:45,839 Speaker 3: you know, we're not really talking about the worlding anymore. 91 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:49,559 Speaker 2: It's kind of happened now. Now moving to Condon or Europe. 92 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 2: Here the book is primarily concerned with a particular wolf, Schloats. 93 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 2: Can you tell us about Schloats and why his particular 94 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:05,839 Speaker 2: story captured you so and serves as the driving force 95 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 2: of your narrative? 96 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:10,160 Speaker 3: Sure, Schlutz, it is actually one of the interesting thing. 97 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:12,040 Speaker 3: I mean, it's a particular Slovenian word. And even in 98 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:14,480 Speaker 3: the other countries that Schlous ended up in, no one 99 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 3: can really say his name, probably but Schloutz. I first 100 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:21,039 Speaker 3: read a little piece about Schlutz when I was doing 101 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 3: my research on wolves in Scotland, and it was this 102 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:28,720 Speaker 3: very small article about this wolf that had been born 103 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 3: in the south of Slovenia in twenty ten and had 104 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 3: a GPS track and collar put on him by a 105 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 3: biologist who was researching into wolf behavior. But of course 106 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 3: that biologist could have no idea what this animal was 107 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 3: going to go on to do. He was really just 108 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 3: interested in the sort of dynamics of the how a 109 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 3: wolf maintained the territory of the pack. But the following year, 110 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 3: at the end of twenty eleven, when Schlutz is about 111 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 3: eighteen months old, he left his pack behind and set 112 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 3: off on this epic one thousand mile journey through the 113 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 3: app Slovenia. He crossed the whole of Austria, and four 114 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:07,159 Speaker 3: months later in the spring, came into Italy and it 115 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 3: was there that he bumped into a female wolf who 116 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:11,720 Speaker 3: was on a walkabout of her own. So somehow in 117 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 3: there wasn't another wolf for thousands of square miles. Somehow 118 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:17,839 Speaker 3: these two wolves managed to find each other, and when 119 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:20,479 Speaker 3: they bred, they became the first wolf pack back in 120 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:23,720 Speaker 3: the Italian Alps for more than a century. So in 121 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 3: one way, it was this remarkable love story that I 122 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 3: was drawn to. The female wolf ended up getting called 123 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 3: Juliet because they were very close to Verona and Romeo 124 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 3: and Julieta still Vona's most famous couple. So I was 125 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:39,159 Speaker 3: really drawn to this incredible meeting in this love story 126 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:42,160 Speaker 3: between these two animals. But of course not everyone is 127 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 3: quite so quite so in love with the idea of 128 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 3: having wolves back in the mountains. 129 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:49,160 Speaker 2: Now, as you definitely discussed in the book, when we 130 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 2: talk about wolves, there's often a lot of separating the 131 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 2: biological reality of wolves from human mythmaking about wolves and misconceptions. 132 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:01,040 Speaker 2: Coming back to the title of a book, lone Wolf, 133 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 2: can you remind us just what a lone wolf actually 134 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:07,159 Speaker 2: is and in comparison to maybe some of the ideas 135 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 2: that we have about lone wolves. 136 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, so I really wanted to call it lone Wolf, 137 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 3: and we had a bit of pushback sort of an 138 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 3: editorial meetings and stuff, But to me, it was really 139 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 3: important to call it lone Wolf because I wanted to 140 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 3: challenge this idea of what a lone wolf is. We 141 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 3: think of a lone wolf as this kind of Clint 142 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 3: Eastward archetype, you know, this hero riding off into the 143 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 3: sunset who doesn't need anyone or anything, Whereas what I 144 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:33,679 Speaker 3: realized from following Schlaus is that actually a lone wolf 145 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 3: is simply something that hasn't found what it's looking for yet. 146 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 3: And a lone wolf is looking for the same three 147 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 3: things that we all are. It's looking for enough land 148 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 3: to live on, it's looking for enough food to eat, 149 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 3: and it's looking for a mate. So and it's an 150 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 3: incredibly vulnerable time for a wolf. There is no more 151 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 3: vulnerable time. Wolves don't hunt well alone. They like to 152 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 3: be part of packs, they like to have a fixed territory. 153 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 3: They're actually an incredibly conservative species, very shy, very hard 154 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 3: to see. So to set off on these journeys as 155 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 3: a particular kind of subset of wolves are hardwired to do, 156 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 3: to disperse like this is an incredibly dangerous, perilous time 157 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 3: for them, and not a not a proud, self sufficient 158 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 3: state that they want to end up in. 159 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 2: Now. In chronicling this journey, you sometimes write from the 160 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 2: point of view of Slouts himself in the book, and 161 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 2: I thought this was a lovely choice. It makes for 162 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 2: some very poetic passages. Can you describe your process for 163 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 2: imagining the mindset of the wolf and how this factored 164 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 2: into your approach. 165 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks, I toyed with it for a while and 166 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 3: in the end it felt important. I didn't want to 167 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 3: say that, you know, I was seeing the world as 168 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 3: a wolf was, but I wanted in some way to 169 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 3: sort of, however clumsily, kind of get inside Slouse's mind 170 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 3: in a way. And there was something about following his journey. 171 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 3: So the track and collar that you had to put 172 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 3: on him, it gave one way point every one hundred 173 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 3: and ninety minutes for the entire four months of his walk, 174 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 3: And before I set off, transferred each of those waypoints 175 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:04,320 Speaker 3: onto this big stack of maps that I carried in 176 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 3: my rucksack. And as I walked, as I followed this path, 177 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 3: you started to get some sort of sense of how 178 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 3: this wolf was seeing the world. You know, on the map, 179 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:16,839 Speaker 3: it might have not seemed to make sense why he'd 180 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:20,199 Speaker 3: suddenly changed compass point and set off on a different bearing. 181 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 3: But then when I got to this point, I realized 182 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 3: that I could hear the airport, or hear a highway, 183 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 3: or I could you see a town for the first 184 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:30,679 Speaker 3: time as we come over a hill, or the other 185 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 3: places where he turned round, because it was a mountain 186 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 3: pass and the winter that he traveled it was incredibly snowy, 187 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 3: and a lot of these places was just inaccessible, so 188 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:41,520 Speaker 3: in some way that you couldn't get from just looking 189 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 3: at the data on the page. By doing this walk, 190 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 3: I started to sense some sort of way that the 191 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 3: wolf was moving through a landscape in a way, and 192 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 3: often looking for the easiest route as well, often following 193 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 3: the river or the bike path down a valley rather 194 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:59,560 Speaker 3: than going over a mountain range. And yeah, I felt 195 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 3: by the end end of this walk, after following in 196 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 3: his footsteps for a few months, that I had kind 197 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 3: of earned the right to at least try and write 198 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 3: a little bit from his from his perspective. 199 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:10,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, humans have of course long considered the wholf. We've 200 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 2: long seen shades of them and us, and shades of 201 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 2: us and them. So yeah, this is this is such 202 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:24,440 Speaker 2: a I guess, a long standing area of analysis and consideration, right, like, like, 203 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 2: how are wolves like us? And how are we like 204 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 2: the wholf? 205 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:31,079 Speaker 3: Yeah, we obviously go way back. The wolf is the 206 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 3: first animal we domesticated, it's the first animal we lived alongside. 207 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 3: And there are these really interesting similarities between the two 208 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 3: of us. We're two of the very few species on 209 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 3: the planet that hunt prey that are larger than ourselves. 210 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:48,080 Speaker 3: That's unusual in the animal world, and in order to 211 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 3: do that, that means that you need to work together 212 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 3: as a pack. And then when you start working together 213 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 3: as a pack, that requires division of labor, and it 214 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 3: requires hierarchy, and it requires some sort of quite complex 215 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 3: social organization. And so in some ways there's this real 216 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 3: affinity between how humans work together and how wolves work together. 217 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 3: And I think that probably is the reason that we 218 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 3: found each other in kind of hunt gather at times 219 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 3: and decided to work together, essentially because we had this 220 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 3: sort of understanding we both like to run after pray 221 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:21,080 Speaker 3: and tire them out, and that is the way that 222 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:22,680 Speaker 3: that is the way that they hunt, as opposed a 223 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:26,439 Speaker 3: big cat or something like that. And I think it's 224 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 3: almost that closeness. There was a wolf behavioral scientist that 225 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 3: I met in Austria and he said to me, either 226 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:33,680 Speaker 3: you love your brother or you hate your brother. There's 227 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 3: nothing in between. And I think it's almost that closeness 228 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:38,600 Speaker 3: that we feel to wolves. And obviously we see that 229 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:40,720 Speaker 3: in our relationship to dogs as well, which you're essentially 230 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 3: the same animal that we've had this incredible bond with them, 231 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 3: But that's very easily quickly flipped into a hatred that 232 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:51,599 Speaker 3: I don't think we have for any other animal either. 233 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 2: And that speaking of that hatred and sort of like 234 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 2: the dark side of that bond. You write a bit 235 00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 2: in the book about Europe's three centuries of where wolf 236 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:02,439 Speaker 2: triesles and the we're a wolf panic. Can you tell 237 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 2: us a bit about this period of time and how 238 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 2: it matches up with the timeline of the Eurasian wolf's decline. 239 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:13,439 Speaker 3: Sure, so, yeah, to kind of to break that down 240 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:14,960 Speaker 3: a bit, maybe I can say a bit first just 241 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 3: about the kind of the extermination of the wolf in general, 242 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 3: because we began at that point, as I was saying, 243 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 3: with that sort of hunter gather a relationship to the wolf. 244 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:27,560 Speaker 3: I think it's two hunters almost respecting each other. But 245 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 3: as soon as we became herders, as soon as we 246 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:35,199 Speaker 3: put up fences and started to keep livestock, the wolf 247 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 3: became this animal that was on the other side of 248 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 3: the fence. Suddenly we had something that the wolf wanted, 249 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 3: and very quickly it flipped into the wolf being the 250 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 3: thief the vagabonds. And from a Christian lens, if Jesus 251 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:51,439 Speaker 3: is the lamb, then the wolf is the devil and 252 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 3: the persecution that they've faced over millennia. Really ever since 253 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:58,959 Speaker 3: there's been money to pay them. There have been bounties 254 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:01,559 Speaker 3: out on wolve's heads back to sixth century BC and 255 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:06,559 Speaker 3: Athens there were bounties out on wolves. Charlemagne from about 256 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 3: eighteen for about eight hundreds sorry in France started trying 257 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 3: to eradicate the wolf, but it took almost a thousand years. 258 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 3: It wasn't until nineteen twenty seven that wolves were finally 259 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:17,440 Speaker 3: gone from France. And in some ways it was in 260 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 3: the United States where that kind of hatred of the 261 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:24,600 Speaker 3: wolf really reached another reached a pinnacle. Basically, the ways 262 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 3: that wolves were killed they were set on fire, they 263 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 3: were pulled apart by horses, they were beaten to death, 264 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 3: and then paraded through town on the back of horses. 265 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 3: The estimates of up to two million wolves were killed 266 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 3: in the latter half of the nineteenth century in the 267 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 3: United States, and the Native Americans saw it as a 268 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 3: manifestation of insanity. It was said it was seen as 269 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 3: a manifestation of insanity amongst the white settlers that were 270 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:57,680 Speaker 3: killing these animals. Yeah, and there's something you're doing this research. 271 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 3: It really seemed to border on a hatred to wipe 272 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 3: out that many animals, right down to the very last animal. 273 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 3: It feels like it requires a stronger motivation than just 274 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 3: a desire to protect one sheep. And the werewolf trials 275 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 3: that you mentioned at the beginning of that question seemed 276 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:15,199 Speaker 3: to be one of those particular manifestations of that sort 277 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:18,199 Speaker 3: of paranoia and hate. I'm sure some of your listeners 278 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 3: will be familiar with the witch trials, like the Salem 279 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 3: witch Trials, and we had them a lot in Europe 280 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 3: as well. Thousands of women were killed over several centuries, 281 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 3: But I wasn't aware that people were actually put to 282 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 3: death being accused of being werewolves as well. And one 283 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 3: of the there were two towns actually in Austria that 284 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 3: Schloutz's route passed through were places whereas late as the 285 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 3: early eighteenth century people were being put on trial and 286 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 3: hung for being were wolves, and quite often the accused 287 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 3: seemed to be travelers, wanderers, beggars, people that might turn 288 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 3: up in town. Maybe two sheep were killed that night, 289 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 3: and the local people sided to put two and two together, 290 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 3: and uh and and and persecute the outsider for for 291 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 3: bringing this l upon the upon the town. 292 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 2: I'm glad you mentioned, uh, the agricultural aspect of hatred 293 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 2: of the wolf. I had recently read a couple of 294 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 2: different books looking at and were wolf myths and legends 295 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 2: and talking about how in some cases you see people 296 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 2: trying to to date the idea of were wolve's back 297 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 2: to our prehistoric ancestors in this time when we lived 298 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 2: closer to the wolf, and certainly when we domesticated the wolf. 299 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 2: But then I think the more convincing stories that I've 300 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 2: read have have made the argument that it is this. 301 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 2: These are ultimately agricultural era tales. These are tales of 302 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 2: fear of the wolf and analysis of the wolf in 303 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 2: a time when we are worried about our sheep and 304 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 2: our herds and and UH and and our dominion over nature. 305 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 3: I don't think that's to say that it kind of 306 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 3: obviously it's a misguided assumption. But obviously, you know, to 307 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 3: these people, it's not like now when you can get 308 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 3: compensation from the state for a wolf kill on the sheep. 309 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 3: Wolves don't kill a huge amount of livestock, but they 310 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 3: can target certain farms and certain herds, and so someone 311 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 3: might lose twenty of their thirty sheep, and that would 312 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 3: have been an absolutely existential crisis three hundred years ago. 313 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 3: That was your way of getting through the winter, that 314 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 3: was your way of feeding your fairly large family. It 315 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 3: would have felt horrifying to be targeted in that way. 316 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 3: And I can see the trials against the were wolves 317 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 3: and also the kind of ambulets and charms and things 318 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 3: that people tried to as some way of trying to 319 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 3: have dominion over nature when nature felt really outside of 320 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 3: one's control. 321 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 2: Now and my recent reading about is where Wolf. That's 322 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 2: one of the books that I was looking at was 323 00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 2: a twenty twenty one book by Daniel Agden called The 324 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 2: World Wolf in the Ancient World. And there's one quote 325 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 2: in that that I keep coming back to where he 326 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 2: says the quote wolves are in and of themselves. Where 327 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 2: wolves already in so far that is, is that they 328 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 2: combine the qualities of the wildest and most lawless of 329 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:15,880 Speaker 2: animals with those of civilization and humanity. And I kept 330 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:17,879 Speaker 2: coming back in that, not to just harp on like 331 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 2: negative connotations of the wolf, but I thought this was 332 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 2: interesting and sort of looking at the wolf as this 333 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:28,640 Speaker 2: thing that already mirrors a lot about humans, like not 334 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:33,200 Speaker 2: just potential savagery, but also how social wolves are, something 335 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 2: that I think is sometimes very often overlooked, certainly and 336 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 2: were wolf stories, but just in general. I was wondering 337 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 2: if you might speak to He's touched on this already 338 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:44,639 Speaker 2: a little bit, but speak to just how social wolves 339 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 2: are and how how like humans they are in this regard. 340 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think in some ways they're almost an aspiration 341 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 3: or animal. You know that we're obviously genetically far closer 342 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 3: to chimpanzees, but I think we in wolves we see 343 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 3: qualities of as how we would like to be. You know, 344 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 3: you go to you go to zoo and watch chimpanzees, 345 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 3: you obviously see something in them, But to watch a 346 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,119 Speaker 3: wolf is to is to see how humans could be. 347 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 3: I think, you know, wolves, wolves are excellent parents. They're 348 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 3: one of the very few animals where the males will 349 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:18,440 Speaker 3: stick around long after the birth to look after both 350 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:23,119 Speaker 3: the pups and the suckling mother. They are incredibly loyal, 351 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 3: They are courageous and resourceful, and you know, often I 352 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:32,439 Speaker 3: met a lot of people, a lot of farmers on 353 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 3: my journey through the Apps who absolutely detested wolves, you know, 354 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 3: for the burdens that they put on their lives. But 355 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:40,719 Speaker 3: I still got this sense that if they if they 356 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:43,199 Speaker 3: were to be reincarnated at some point in the future, 357 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 3: if they were going to come back as an animal, 358 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 3: they'd really like to come back as a wolf. 359 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 2: You know, Yeah, that's that's interesting. Yeah, how when people 360 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 2: think about wolves there is often this aspirational aspect of it, 361 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 2: like they don't actually be a were wolf, but the 362 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 2: idea of being like free like a wolf, of having 363 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:01,159 Speaker 2: the wolf is kind of like a symbolic animal in 364 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 2: one's mind. 365 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 3: And it's worth saying we've spoken about the kind of 366 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 3: hatred and the hatred that we've got in them, that 367 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:12,919 Speaker 3: adulation of the wolf is also a misconception. One of 368 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 3: the things that I found in this book is that 369 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 3: almost the hardest thing about a wolf is to see 370 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 3: it for what it is, which is a wolf. It 371 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,440 Speaker 3: seems to be this vessel for our fears and our 372 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:24,119 Speaker 3: hopes and our dreams, and particularly how we relate to 373 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 3: the natural world. And whilst once upon a time that 374 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 3: might have been this sense of destroying the wolf in 375 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 3: order to kind of manifest progress and civilization, now we 376 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 3: have all these anxieties about what we're doing to the 377 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:40,880 Speaker 3: world and what we're doing to our futures, and once 378 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:42,880 Speaker 3: again the wolf has become this vessel, but this time 379 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 3: it's something that's almost going to save us from ourselves 380 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 3: rather than destroyers. 381 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 2: In the book, you draw connections between the comeback of 382 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 2: the wild Wolf and the refugee crisis in Europe. Can 383 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:55,360 Speaker 2: you elaborate on this for Uce a bit? 384 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, in several ways. I was first drawn to this 385 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 3: story actually because Licinia, which is this small regional park 386 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 3: in Italy where Schlutz finished his journey, where he bumped 387 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:11,679 Speaker 3: into Juliet and where they formed their first pack. It 388 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:13,640 Speaker 3: was also a part of the Alps where a lot 389 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:17,359 Speaker 3: of refugees who were arriving in Italy they divide by 390 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 3: boat to lamproducer and then they'd straight away get taken 391 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:23,640 Speaker 3: to these settlement centers. And there was one in Licinia 392 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 3: right up in the Apps and the middle of nowhere, 393 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:29,479 Speaker 3: completely cut off in winter, and these people that were 394 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 3: arriving from North Africa from the Middle East were being 395 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 3: taken to these This was a former NATO barracks, and 396 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:39,159 Speaker 3: a lot of the language that was being used by 397 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:41,760 Speaker 3: the local people living in these mountains about the refugees 398 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:44,720 Speaker 3: and the wolves was very similar. You know, we were 399 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 3: here first. These people don't belong here. I don't have 400 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 3: a problem with either wolves or migrants, but their place 401 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 3: isn't here. And not only obviously, was that completely untrue 402 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 3: that wolves were in these mountains long before people. And 403 00:20:57,119 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 3: actually a lot of the Licinians are descendants of German 404 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 3: woodcutters who moved down from Germany a few hundred years ago. 405 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 3: There were these kind of very obvious parallels I was finding, 406 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:12,360 Speaker 3: particularly in how both in the rural places I was 407 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 3: passing through, the migrant and the wolf are both being 408 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 3: scapegoated by rural populations for a set of much more 409 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:22,399 Speaker 3: complicated problems, you know, and I think we see that 410 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 3: in the rise of far right politics everywhere. The migrant 411 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:30,680 Speaker 3: is this scapegoat for this incredibly complex range of problems 412 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 3: that are affecting countries, and the wolf seemed to stand 413 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 3: in for that as well. So there seemed to be 414 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 3: this affinity and yeah, kind of the importance of both 415 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 3: the wolf and the migrant for these places. But then 416 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:47,160 Speaker 3: how it was perceived by a local population as well, 417 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 3: And then how the refugee and the wolf were being 418 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:53,920 Speaker 3: used by far right politicians in order to inflame anger 419 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 3: and to chase that populist vote as well. 420 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 2: Well, I really I really appreciated how you were able 421 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:00,399 Speaker 2: to weave these themes together book. 422 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, it felt I wasn't expecting it, to be honest, 423 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:08,199 Speaker 3: I wasn't expecting it, but increasingly, Yeah, it seemed to 424 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:11,119 Speaker 3: follow me wherever I went. You know that the wolf 425 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 3: has been One of the reasons the wolf has done 426 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:16,480 Speaker 3: so well in Europe is because it's been protected by 427 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 3: the European Union for the last thirty years or fifty 428 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:22,680 Speaker 3: years in some ways, and so it's a very short 429 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 3: distance to having a problem with the wolf to having 430 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:27,959 Speaker 3: a problem with the European Union. And there are far 431 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 3: right parties, particularly in Austria where the FBO are now 432 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 3: the leading party, where rather than encouraging farmers to try 433 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 3: and coexist with the wolf, and there are proven ways 434 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 3: to be able to co exist with wolves using dogs, 435 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 3: using electric fences, they were almost encouraging farmers not to 436 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:51,159 Speaker 3: do that and actually to just send their flocks up 437 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 3: into the mountains in what one biologist described to me 438 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 3: as a state sanctioned slaughterhouse. And then when that drama happens, 439 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 3: that would then create this space for these politicians to 440 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 3: say that they're going to go to the European Union 441 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 3: and go to Brussels and demand a change in law 442 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 3: for the protection of the wolf, which actually has now 443 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 3: recently happened so in the way that farmers protests, and 444 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:19,680 Speaker 3: I do, you know, it's worth saying that I really 445 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,359 Speaker 3: understand why farmers are finding it hard to live alongside 446 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 3: these carnivores. Again, you know, there's a lot of farming 447 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 3: is a difficult profession at the best of times. That 448 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 3: the year that I did the walk was the driest 449 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 3: summer in Europe for several hundred years. The price of 450 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:42,359 Speaker 3: electricity and animal feed is rocketing. Since Russia invaded Ukraine, 451 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:45,639 Speaker 3: young people are leaving for the cities. They don't want 452 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 3: to farm anymore. And now these farmers are being asked 453 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 3: to live alongside wolves as well. I understand the fury. 454 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:57,680 Speaker 3: And while these complex problems climate change, inflation, etc. Are 455 00:23:57,680 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 3: hard to manage, at least with a wolf, you can 456 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 3: go out and shoot it, albeit illegally, and feel like 457 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 3: you have some kind of agency over your life. But 458 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 3: rather than promoting understanding, rather than delving into the actual 459 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 3: looking for solutions to these more complicated problems, that is 460 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,119 Speaker 3: the place where these far right politicians seem to be 461 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:19,119 Speaker 3: coming in and co opting their anger and turning it 462 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:20,680 Speaker 3: to their own ends. And that that's the bit that 463 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,639 Speaker 3: I want to challenge. Not that I don't understand why 464 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:26,440 Speaker 3: it's difficult for pharmaci live alongside wolves, but the ways 465 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 3: that it's being politicized I think need to be addressed. 466 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:42,160 Speaker 2: Now, getting back to the topic of domestication, you touch 467 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 2: on the history of the German shepherd dog breed, which 468 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 2: this was all new to me. I don't know much 469 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 2: about dog breeds, I admit. Can you talk a little 470 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 2: bit about how the German shepherd factors into our ideas 471 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 2: about the wolf. 472 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:00,480 Speaker 3: Yes, so the German shepherd I knew none of this 473 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 3: either until I started to research. The German shepherd was 474 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:07,359 Speaker 3: an early twentieth century creation by a guy called Maximan Stefanitz, 475 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 3: who was a retired German cavalry officer, and he said 476 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 3: that he set out to basically kind of reverse engineer 477 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,720 Speaker 3: a wolf, to sort of breed back into a dog 478 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 3: all these qualities that he saw as kind of most 479 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 3: wolf like and most noble for its size and its 480 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 3: strength and its power and its willingness to work, and 481 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 3: it really prefigured a lot of the kind of Nazi 482 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 3: eugenics ideas, and the six hundred page manifesto that he 483 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 3: wrote about the German Shepherd had a lot to say 484 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 3: about race and about the purity of race, and very 485 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:48,160 Speaker 3: much the same way that Nazis would fetishize this kind 486 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,200 Speaker 3: of certain area and races as time went on and 487 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 3: the Nazis. For the Nazis, the German shepherd was the 488 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 3: kind of dog that they used in the death camps, 489 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 3: that they used on the battlefield. Hit Like kept two 490 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 3: German shepherds, one of which he named Wolf. Hitler himself 491 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:08,200 Speaker 3: was obsessed by wolf's Adolph itself is an old Germanic 492 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 3: variation of of wolf, and from from he called the 493 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:17,480 Speaker 3: Hitler youth, his his wolf cubs. Apparently he went around 494 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 3: whistling the Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Wolf Disney song? 495 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 3: You know that he saw in the wolf this kind 496 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:32,159 Speaker 3: of this total animal, I suppose, this sense of this 497 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 3: kind of unbridled violence and aggression that he wanted to 498 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,680 Speaker 3: breed back into a race of people that he felt 499 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 3: had become weak and soft and powerless. So for the 500 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 3: interesting that the Nazis were the first people in modern 501 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 3: times to actually place environmental protection laws on the wolf, 502 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:55,440 Speaker 3: and it was it was part of this this vision 503 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 3: of this kind of udagizing the power of the animal. 504 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. I believe you mentioned in the book that disturbingly 505 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 2: so the Nazis environmental policies were advanced even for today. 506 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:12,120 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, but it was a sense of a kind 507 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:15,919 Speaker 3: of pristine wilderness that was going to be full of 508 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 3: this sort of race of godlike men, you know, and 509 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 3: those kind of large, charismatic, tootemic animals that actually fit 510 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:30,480 Speaker 3: very well within that sort of wider Nazi vision of 511 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 3: the world. 512 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 2: Interesting that there was some attempt in this to sort 513 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:37,920 Speaker 2: of recreate a wolf, because I know in some generally 514 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,639 Speaker 2: not great movies I've seen German shepherds stand in for 515 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,640 Speaker 2: they'll have the part of wild wolves played by obvious 516 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:44,520 Speaker 2: German shepherds. 517 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 3: And then it's worth mentioning Miscellini as well, because for 518 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 3: Italy there was also a part important important animal for Mussolini. 519 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:59,399 Speaker 3: But because the founding myth of Rome has the twins 520 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 3: Communism Remus being abandoned in the wilderness and then being 521 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 3: saved by a she wolf who suckled the twins until 522 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 3: a shepherd took them in, and then Rominius and Remus 523 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:13,159 Speaker 3: later went on to found Rome. The wolf for the 524 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:19,119 Speaker 3: Italians has had that same strength and power, but has 525 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:24,359 Speaker 3: also been this kind of nurturing maternal influence, and Mussolini 526 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 3: very much co opted that. Through the whole of Mussolinius 527 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,719 Speaker 3: fascist raisme, there was a live wolf kept in a 528 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,399 Speaker 3: cage in Rome that people could go and see and 529 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 3: actually reined there in various generations of the wolf up 530 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 3: until the nineteen seventies. There was meant to be this living, 531 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:46,960 Speaker 3: fleshy symbol of the power of Mussolini's project. 532 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 2: Now, going back to what you said earlier, this idea 533 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:53,800 Speaker 2: of the wolf is also serving very particular human aspirations 534 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 2: and is rather far removed from like the more boundariality 535 00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 2: of the wolf, including it's how social the animal is, 536 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 2: how nurturing the animal can be, and so forth right. 537 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's no more prevalent myth about the wolf than 538 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 3: this idea of an alpha wolf, which is now completely discredited. 539 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 3: The alpha wolf was created by this biologist called Rudolph Schenkel, 540 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 3: working in nineteen thirty four. He began his research just 541 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 3: across the border from Nazi Germany in Switzerland. And again 542 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 3: it's thought that in his research in many ways was 543 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:31,360 Speaker 3: influenced by the Nazi project that was developing across the border. 544 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 3: And he based his study on a pack of wolves 545 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,480 Speaker 3: that were kept that were drawn from all different places 546 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 3: and kept in a very small enclosure. And from observing 547 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 3: those wolves and how they were not able to disperse 548 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:49,960 Speaker 3: and go out and find new territory like stats was 549 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 3: able to how they were not able to cooperate and hunt, 550 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 3: but actually they were just forced into this small environment. 551 00:29:55,120 --> 00:30:00,719 Speaker 3: There was this completely artificial fighting to be the alpha. 552 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 3: But that is not how wolves work in the wild. 553 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 3: But that became the basis for understanding how wild wolves 554 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 3: work for the next fifty years or so. It's now 555 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 3: been completely discredited in the science, but that sense of 556 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 3: the alpha wolf does still persist from motivational speakers and 557 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 3: toxic corners of the internet and everything else. We're still 558 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 3: encouraged to be this idea of the alpha. But that's 559 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,960 Speaker 3: something because it fits very well with how we If 560 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 3: we can say that wolves do it, then we can 561 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 3: kind of justify doing it ourselves as well. But that 562 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 3: is not how wolves work. A wolf pack is essentially 563 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 3: a family in some shape or form, and the main 564 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 3: pair of wolves will generally stay together for life, breed 565 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 3: for life, and raise successive generations within the pack. 566 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:51,720 Speaker 2: What is your big hope for readers with this book, 567 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 2: for them something they might take away about wolves and 568 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 2: also maybe about humans. 569 00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 3: I think one of the things that I've come to 570 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 3: see the wolf has. As we said at the beginning, 571 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 3: we're a long way from reintroducing wolves to the to 572 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:08,479 Speaker 3: the UK. But I think the reason why wolves are 573 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 3: interesting to think about, whether in a North American context 574 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 3: or a European context, is because I think they really 575 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:18,600 Speaker 3: demand answers of us. They're almost the disruptors. You know, 576 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 3: they move fast and they break stuff. And if we think, 577 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 3: you know, we know we need to give more space 578 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:25,360 Speaker 3: to the natural world, we know that we need to 579 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 3: coexist in a better way. But I think wolves really 580 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 3: ask us if we believe that we can or are 581 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,960 Speaker 3: we just paying at service of this? Can we can 582 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,120 Speaker 3: we sanction risk again? Can we sanction living in a 583 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 3: world that feels a little bit more unknown than what 584 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:41,400 Speaker 3: we might be used to? You know, it was it 585 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 3: was tempting to me. I work as an environmental journalist, 586 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 3: I write a lot of stories that seem quite hopeless, 587 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 3: and it was quite tempting for me with this story 588 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:51,760 Speaker 3: to see the wolf as this kind of beacon of hope. 589 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,160 Speaker 3: You know, wolves are doing incredibly well in Europe again 590 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,960 Speaker 3: and to a lesser extent in North America. They're now 591 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,479 Speaker 3: listed as a species of Least Concern in Europe. It's 592 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 3: this incredible environmental success story in a way, and it's 593 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 3: really tempting to hang on to that as a kind 594 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 3: of beacon of hope when when in the middle of 595 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:13,160 Speaker 3: a biodiversity crisis and a climate crisis, and you know, 596 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,120 Speaker 3: again that is just seeing the wolf is something that 597 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 3: we want it to be. Of course, it doesn't really 598 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 3: mean that the earth is healing or anything like that. 599 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 3: But for the wolf, this is obviously a massive time 600 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 3: of hope and success, and I think that's really interesting 601 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 3: to see it in that way, that there is this 602 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 3: incredible desire for life to thrive. I think that that's 603 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:36,320 Speaker 3: what wolves embody that and in response to times of crisis, 604 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 3: we move, you know, and I think wolves have always 605 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 3: embodied that that that change is inevitable, and there is 606 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:49,520 Speaker 3: this desire and this urge for life to flourish, and 607 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,400 Speaker 3: following Schlaus's journey across Europe has really shown me that 608 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:55,360 Speaker 3: it's you know, however much we try and put up 609 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,680 Speaker 3: our borders, however much we try and hem life in it, 610 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:09,520 Speaker 3: will continue to try and find a way. 611 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 2: All right, Adam, I have one more question for you. 612 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 2: And I realized this was this was the sillier one. 613 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:18,800 Speaker 2: But in the acknowledgments for the book you you mentioned 614 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 2: leaning on Joel pulling h for a quote having watched 615 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 2: every werewolf film out there so that I didn't have to. 616 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:28,200 Speaker 2: Could you give us a little a little bit about 617 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:31,280 Speaker 2: your back and forth with Joel here? What what did that? 618 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 1: Have? 619 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 2: This? Have this go down? 620 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 3: He sent me. Joel he's a friend of mine. He 621 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:37,479 Speaker 3: works at the British Film Institute. We've been we've been 622 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:39,320 Speaker 3: friends for ever. He's not just watched every where wolf 623 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:41,720 Speaker 3: film going, He's watched every film going at this point. 624 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 3: It's an incredible resource. And yeah, there's a lot of 625 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:47,240 Speaker 3: werebell films out there that there's a lot of wolf 626 00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:49,680 Speaker 3: literature out there. I remember sort of going into the 627 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,719 Speaker 3: British Library at the beginning of this research and typing 628 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,880 Speaker 3: in Wolf into the library archive and being absolutely overwhelmed. 629 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 3: My last book was about Salmon and the the literature 630 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:02,120 Speaker 3: was a lot less intimidating than it was about the wolf, 631 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:07,680 Speaker 3: and the werewolf subset of that is again is again vast. 632 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:10,839 Speaker 3: But he set me on to some of the classics 633 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,640 Speaker 3: which I've never seen. Ginger Snaps, I'd never seen. American 634 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 3: werewolf in London I'd never seen, and it felt like 635 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:19,759 Speaker 3: a werewolf would be many things to many people. It 636 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:23,680 Speaker 3: seems to it's standing for kind of whatever our paranoia 637 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:28,480 Speaker 3: and preoccupations are at the time. But compared to the 638 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:31,000 Speaker 3: actual werewolf trials that I was seeing, that the ones 639 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:35,920 Speaker 3: in films like Ginger Snaps, it's always the lover, the 640 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:38,920 Speaker 3: best friend that seems to be possessed, whereas the werewolf 641 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:42,719 Speaker 3: trials it was always the unknown, stranger, the vagrant. But 642 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,200 Speaker 3: it seems to lean into that. You know, it's in 643 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:49,120 Speaker 3: the same way as when you watch a wolf in 644 00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:51,640 Speaker 3: a zoo or something like that. It looks it looks 645 00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 3: like every dog that you know. You know, you feel 646 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 3: like you can understand what it's thinking because you you 647 00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 3: sort of think you know what a dog's thinking. But 648 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:03,239 Speaker 3: then there's this kind of unhinged element as well, that 649 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 3: suddenly it will foe you and you realize you're not 650 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 3: watching a dog at all, You're watching this other, completely 651 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:09,640 Speaker 3: wild thing. And I think that's what the were wolf 652 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:12,440 Speaker 3: thing touches on, that we're watching someone and we think 653 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,680 Speaker 3: we understand them, but actually within that there is this wild, 654 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 3: unhinged part of them, which it's not just terrifying, it's 655 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,799 Speaker 3: also it's also quite thrilling, you know, But there's a 656 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:25,759 Speaker 3: temptation in the werewolf there just to kind of let 657 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,799 Speaker 3: go and see what happens if we, you know, run 658 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:29,520 Speaker 3: off into the night. 659 00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:31,960 Speaker 2: Adam, well, thanks so much for taking time out of 660 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:34,080 Speaker 2: your day to chat with me here. The book again 661 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:37,680 Speaker 2: is Lone Wolf Walking the Line between Civilization and Wildness. 662 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:39,000 Speaker 3: Thanks Rev, thanks for having me. 663 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:44,680 Speaker 2: On all right, Thanks once more to Adam for coming 664 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:47,080 Speaker 2: on the show and chatting with me. The book again 665 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,600 Speaker 2: is Lone Wolf Walking the Line between Civilization and Wildness, 666 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:52,920 Speaker 2: and as of June third, you'll find it in the 667 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:56,520 Speaker 2: US in all major formats. Thanks as always to the 668 00:35:56,560 --> 00:36:00,080 Speaker 2: excellent JJ Passway for producing this show. And if you 669 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,839 Speaker 2: have any questions, episodes, suggestions, and so forth you would 670 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,200 Speaker 2: like to send to us. You can email us at 671 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:16,959 Speaker 2: contact It's Stuff to Blow Your Mind dot com. 672 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:20,000 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 673 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:22,839 Speaker 1: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 674 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:39,960 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.