1 00:00:00,840 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Tutor Dixon Podcast in the Clay 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:05,800 Speaker 1: and Book Podcast Network. 3 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 2: Welcome to the Tutor Dixon Podcast. I'm Tutor Dixon, and 4 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 2: I'm so glad you're tuning in today because today I 5 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 2: am joined by someone I recently met and I was 6 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 2: blown away by all of his knowledge in the health 7 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:23,119 Speaker 2: space everywhere from pain to COVID, a lot of the 8 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:25,760 Speaker 2: subjects that we're talking about right now. So I wanted 9 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 2: to make sure that he could come on and talk 10 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 2: to you as well. 11 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 3: I invited him here so that we could learn more. 12 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 2: Welcome the medical director at the University of Wisconsin's Pain Clinic, 13 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:39,599 Speaker 2: doctor Ala Abd al say Ed. I want to make 14 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:42,560 Speaker 2: sure I know I'm probably not saying that perfectly right. 15 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 1: You did it actually perfectly right. So thanks for having me. 16 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:48,280 Speaker 3: Thank you, Thank you so much. 17 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:53,200 Speaker 2: So we met at a meeting out in Austin, and 18 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 2: you were talking to me about not only pain, but 19 00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 2: a lot of the stuff that is happening in or 20 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 2: was happening in the COVID space. And I think that 21 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:04,559 Speaker 2: we still all have a lot of questions about COVID. 22 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:07,559 Speaker 2: Obviously we see it every single day on the news, 23 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 2: whether or not we're going to hold China accountable for this, 24 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:12,400 Speaker 2: so that is a political question. 25 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:15,199 Speaker 3: But behind the scenes, if you could just give. 26 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:19,400 Speaker 2: Us a little kind of update of our information about 27 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:21,400 Speaker 2: what you saw, because I know you said that you 28 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:24,680 Speaker 2: saw things that you just thought weren't exactly the way 29 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 2: they should have been in the medical community. 30 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:28,679 Speaker 1: Yes, and again, thanks for having me, and it's been 31 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 1: great to meet with you and get to connect. And 32 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:34,680 Speaker 1: thanks for having me on the podcast, because it's very 33 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: important to have those media outlets to start talking to 34 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 1: people more about science and what we see in the 35 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:44,839 Speaker 1: medical field, because we've been all as physicians watching TV, 36 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 1: listening to our politicians, which I respect so much, but 37 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 1: then talking about things that we thought are you inaccurate, 38 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 1: missing some information, or not showing the two sides of 39 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 1: the story. And I'll take an example. Over all, in 40 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: science and in the medical field, there are a lot 41 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 1: of things we do that I didn't see happen with 42 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 1: COVID or with the political controversial topics around healthcare, which 43 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:11,639 Speaker 1: made me always wonder why we're going yes or no 44 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 1: while the answer is almost never yes or no. And 45 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:19,079 Speaker 1: I'll speak about COVID. COVID, for example, it was one 46 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 1: direct to the direction we're taking when we speak about 47 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 1: the origin. It's one thing. Everybody was lid in one thing. 48 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 1: We didn't keep the options at one point open. It 49 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 1: could be this, it could be this, or it could 50 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 1: be that. What's happening When we spoke about the vaccine, 51 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 1: I mean, the vaccine was important, people who were dying 52 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:41,519 Speaker 1: all around. But then as we spoke about the benefits 53 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 1: of the vaccine, whenever spoke about the side effects of 54 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 1: the vaccine. And again I'm not looking here being pro 55 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 1: around tive vaccine or anything. I got vaccinated myself, but 56 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 1: the people need to make a decision based on information. 57 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 3: Well that I think. 58 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:57,080 Speaker 2: I mean, honestly, it's something that we talk about in 59 00:02:57,120 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 2: our office all the time because we all feel like 60 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:01,639 Speaker 2: we didn't We didn't have a whole lot of information, 61 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 2: but we were forced into it. And now that you 62 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:06,519 Speaker 2: see some of these things coming out, there's a lot 63 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:09,080 Speaker 2: of fear over you know, what did I do? What 64 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 2: do I have in my body? What could this mean? 65 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 2: Can you give us any clarity on that now? 66 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 1: Yes, So vaccines have side effects. All vaccines have side effects, 67 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:18,799 Speaker 1: and the COVID vaccine has side effects, and I think 68 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:22,920 Speaker 1: what's happening is we're just not talking about side effects overall. 69 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 1: We're just talking about do it it will help you, 70 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 1: or you will not die. And you know what it's 71 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:30,079 Speaker 1: it could be, it it could be. It's a risk 72 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:33,079 Speaker 1: of benefit decision. But people need to understand also what 73 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 1: are the side effects of the vaccine again, and what are. 74 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 3: The risks to certain people? 75 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 2: I think because maybe I would have made a different 76 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 2: decision if I had really been clear on my risks 77 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 2: not being that great. 78 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 3: And it seems as though a. 79 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 2: Healthy forty five year old person is probably not at 80 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 2: as high a risk of dying from COVID. But now 81 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 2: we've seen some of these folks that have had strange 82 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 2: things like heart at and blood clots, and I think 83 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 2: we're all wondering are those connected to the vaccine? 84 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 1: You are absolutely correct. So when when the vaccine came 85 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:11,119 Speaker 1: out and now we have more data on the vaccine, 86 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 1: definitely we need to study those side effects more. But 87 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:18,479 Speaker 1: the vaccine can initiate autoimmune responses, cutting autoimmune diseases, which 88 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:21,159 Speaker 1: in line of everything you mentioned and more. But we 89 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 1: don't have data, which is a problem because when we 90 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 1: don't have data, people start making assumptions we start to 91 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 1: we don't know because we don't know which can go 92 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 1: good or bad. That's why we need solid information about 93 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 1: what can the benefits of the vaccine and the side 94 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 1: effects of the vaccine. And as you mentioned, people need 95 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:40,839 Speaker 1: to make the decision about do I really maybe maybe 96 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:42,479 Speaker 1: I'm not a high risk of the vaccine. I'm fine, 97 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:46,720 Speaker 1: I'm healthy. It's a personal choice. Or maybe you know 98 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 1: that there's some patients who's respiratory disease, immunic compromise will 99 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 1: die with the vaccine, so I'll take there is can 100 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 1: take the vaccine. But unfortunately it. 101 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 2: Wasn't really a personal choice for a lot of people. 102 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 2: A lot of us had to say for our jobs, yes, 103 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 2: will do this. I mean, have you ever seen anything 104 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 2: like this in medicine before. 105 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: No, I don't recall there are always ways to sign 106 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:12,040 Speaker 1: waivers or like your personal responsibility not to take a vaccine. 107 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 1: So again, but that's what we're seeing now, and well 108 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 1: that's what I'm researching myself right now with my team. 109 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 1: We're trying to look literature because people need to understand 110 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 1: risks and benefits and make the decision that suits them. 111 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:26,039 Speaker 1: And again, in a way that doesn't of course harm 112 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 1: the public the public health, but in many jobs people 113 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 1: were sitting home working on computer. I thought they could 114 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:36,159 Speaker 1: make the decision because they're not harming others. I think 115 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:37,720 Speaker 1: some of the claim was like, if you don't think 116 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: the vaccine might infect others and stuff. Another point here, 117 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 1: we didn't know people got the vaccine and they got 118 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 1: infected to So there's a lot of questions and scientific 119 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 1: facts that I just feel we need to study more. 120 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:54,039 Speaker 1: We need to be transparent, publish what we have, and 121 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 1: make people understand what are the benefits and risk and 122 00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: make a decision. 123 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 3: Is that information readily available? 124 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of confusion from someone like 125 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 2: myself who's outside of the medical community. We know that 126 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 2: when these were approved that there was really no there 127 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 2: was immunity for all of these pharmaceutical companies that if 128 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:16,039 Speaker 2: you were to go back and say this harmed me, 129 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 2: they were really immune to any side effects. 130 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:19,160 Speaker 3: That it had. 131 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 2: So are they also do they also not have to 132 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:24,840 Speaker 2: provide what the data is that they've found, or is 133 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 2: that readily available to folks like you who might say, okay, wait, 134 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 2: I want to do some research on this and figure 135 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 2: out exactly whether or not some of these young people 136 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 2: who are just you know, you see these duids suddenly websites, 137 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 2: and you don't know whether this is mass hysteria and 138 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 2: it's just coming up with people who you would have 139 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 2: never known about, or if we really should be worried. 140 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 2: So I just kind of feel like we need someone 141 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 2: to tell us whether or not we should be breaking 142 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 2: out or say, okay, maybe this is not as bad 143 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:53,920 Speaker 2: as we think exactly. 144 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:57,359 Speaker 1: So all the questions mentioned, these questions we have. You 145 00:06:57,400 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: know that it could be a great vaccine, it could be beautiful, 146 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:03,159 Speaker 1: but we don't know. We don't have access to any 147 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:05,719 Speaker 1: of this data other than we can assertions and literature, 148 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:09,480 Speaker 1: see what people published about risks and benefits of the vaccine, 149 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 1: and you know, make again make just what we can 150 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 1: find the literature, But we don't have access to the 151 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 1: company's data, which. 152 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 3: Is something probably that normal. 153 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: No, it's not normal. Everything should be disclosed. It's public data, 154 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 1: it's public vaccine, and everything should be disclosed. 155 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 3: Why can they get away with that? 156 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: You probably know better than me, So I don't know, 157 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 1: like this has to be And again, it's fine. The 158 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 1: vaccine came at the time people were dying and stuff, 159 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 1: so you know, you could look back and say that 160 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 1: totally was the right decision. But people need to disclose 161 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 1: the data and show particularly this is now becoming an 162 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 1: annual vaccine, so people need to look into data into 163 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: not only this vaccine but all other vaccines, look into 164 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 1: what is risk and the benefits, and have people make 165 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 1: their choice in a way that it will not harm 166 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 1: the public safety or colleagues at work or anything. 167 00:07:56,760 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 2: So from your medical perspective, do you think that this 168 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:01,760 Speaker 2: should be mandated in schools? 169 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 3: Should young children be taking this vaccine? 170 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 1: No? I don't think anything should be mandated unless again, 171 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 1: like I again, in my family, my son was below 172 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 1: the age of vaccination and when the researcher came out 173 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 1: it was inconclusive to his age, and he never got 174 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 1: in the vaccine. Because I'm a physician, I like to 175 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 1: look at science and the data and see how can 176 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 1: I make and make the appropriate decision, and that's how 177 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 1: we all should do. But it's hard to make decisions 178 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:33,959 Speaker 1: without knowing a game that can benefit, and I cannot 179 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:35,840 Speaker 1: show you if you show that this can benefit. I'm 180 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 1: sure that our people still need the vaccine, but maybe 181 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:41,079 Speaker 1: some others will decide I don't need it that much 182 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 1: and I'll take the risk, so it will be a 183 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 1: personal decision. 184 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:46,680 Speaker 2: It's surprising to me that we don't have more people 185 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 2: coming out and saying, well, we're demanding now that we've 186 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 2: had a few years of this vaccine out there, we're 187 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:55,680 Speaker 2: demanding that the data be publicly available. Do you think 188 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 2: that it's because folks that know that it's not publicly available, 189 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 2: or our so afraid that they will not be given 190 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:06,440 Speaker 2: the right to research that they'll be stopped, or is 191 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 2: it just that people just don't really understand that that 192 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 2: research is that data is not available. 193 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:14,200 Speaker 1: You know, I'm puzzled to myself by the same question, 194 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 1: because I don't know why why the data is not disclosed. 195 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:21,560 Speaker 1: It's it's science. And again, when it came it was 196 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 1: a first. Even if the data is bad, I don't 197 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: think many people will blimit. We didn't know then what 198 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:30,320 Speaker 1: we know now. But given now we have years of data, 199 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 1: it definitely should be disclosed. And again if it's if 200 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: it's in favor, why not. So Actually, this is happening 201 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 1: in the medical field at all levels. All companies are 202 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 1: disclosing their databases and having people have access, Like I'm 203 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:46,560 Speaker 1: an investigator on other research for example, and I do 204 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:49,199 Speaker 1: have access to data. And again, if it's good or bad, 205 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 1: it's science. We can to just that's science. It can 206 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 1: go good or bad, it can be riskored benefit. I 207 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:57,959 Speaker 1: mean many medications before it came to the market and 208 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 1: it was drawn after years because they found that they 209 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:04,599 Speaker 1: don't do what they do and I wanted to do. 210 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 1: From the scientific perspective, when you start the research, you do, 211 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 1: you do your due diligence, and you come up with 212 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:11,559 Speaker 1: a product not to harm the people, but did the 213 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 1: shows it's a good product. But then you do what's 214 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 1: called the post market analysis, which should be done for 215 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 1: all products. So the post market analysis. After launching the 216 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 1: product in public, we do the post market analysis and 217 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 1: look at it. And it's good, we continue, If it's bad, 218 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 1: we withdraw it. That's a routine process that we do 219 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:32,559 Speaker 1: in all kinds of products, so it should be implicated 220 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 1: for all for the vaccine and other vaccines and anything 221 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 1: else we use to make sure that the post market 222 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 1: data support the initial studies that lead to launch into 223 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 1: the market. 224 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 3: Let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on 225 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 3: the Tutor Dixon Podcast. It's interesting. 226 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 2: It makes us feel a little bit like, what did 227 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 2: they find that they don't want to show? But I 228 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:58,680 Speaker 2: also think that maybe they are afraid that if there's 229 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 2: any negative that comes out. I mean, this was mandated. 230 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 2: We've never really seen this before. It was mandated before 231 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 2: those studies were able to be done. So maybe there 232 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:10,960 Speaker 2: is some some I don't know, committee or group that 233 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 2: has decided it's in the best interest of the government 234 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 2: and pharmaceutical companies for us to not allow this data 235 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:20,199 Speaker 2: to come out right now, because I. 236 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 3: Mean, even if I think that right now the way. 237 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:24,439 Speaker 2: The country is, even if there was a little bit 238 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:26,840 Speaker 2: to be concerned about, because as you said, the science 239 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:28,840 Speaker 2: is the science. If it comes out bad, it comes 240 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 2: out bad. But if it comes out bad, so many 241 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:34,840 Speaker 2: people will really, I mean, there could be mass hysteria 242 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 2: over that. 243 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:39,959 Speaker 1: You know it it can be. And everything you mentioned 244 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 1: is exactly correct because we don't know. If we don't know, 245 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 1: we don't know. So we're just chatting here because we 246 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 1: don't know, and everybody in the medical field and the 247 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 1: public doesn't know as well. But this routine process for 248 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:53,959 Speaker 1: anything is that we look at post market analysis, we 249 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 1: look at the data and sometimes it's bad, It's fine. 250 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 1: I have done clinical trials before where that is also 251 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 1: our negative. It's okay. That's why we do them. 252 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 2: So these blood clots that people have been talking about, 253 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 2: is this something. 254 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:07,839 Speaker 3: That seems unusual? 255 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 2: I mean, we even had a young child at our 256 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 2: school fifteen years old suddenly pass from a blood clot, 257 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:19,679 Speaker 2: a healthy young person who was in sports, and I 258 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 2: think that when that happens so close to home. But 259 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 2: then we're seeing all these other stories of you know, 260 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:28,680 Speaker 2: thirty year old, twenty five year old on the football field, 261 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:33,320 Speaker 2: all these young people who are either having strokes or 262 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 2: heart attacks, blood clots dying suddenly. Do you think that 263 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:42,080 Speaker 2: this is an odd number of blood clot type situations 264 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 2: after in these young people. 265 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:46,320 Speaker 1: You know, I'll be able to answer this question for 266 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:49,079 Speaker 1: you precisely, hopefully in the next maybe two weeks, because 267 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 1: of what we're about to conclude our research that we 268 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 1: did on literature on that topic. But the thing is 269 00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: the numbers, I mean they look to be higher, but 270 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 1: were looking statistically if they were really actually higher than 271 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 1: previous years. We think they are, and we're trying to 272 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:09,680 Speaker 1: look into multiple We're trying to look into the factors 273 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:15,079 Speaker 1: that could lead to that. Can the outcome so far 274 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: that the search we've been reading is inconclusive, But there 275 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 1: is something we need to consider that what can happen 276 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:23,439 Speaker 1: in the previous few years. Could it be the vaccine, 277 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:25,960 Speaker 1: Could it be COVID infections? Could it be stress? Could 278 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 1: it be because there have been happening in since twenty 279 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 1: twenty the world is not the same anymore. 280 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:32,959 Speaker 3: And that's the Gosha. 281 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 2: I mean, that's true, the amount of stress that we 282 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 2: are under. And I guess I don't think that we've 283 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:42,199 Speaker 2: considered how much that changes your body. I mean, we 284 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:45,199 Speaker 2: were just talking about this over the weekend at church. 285 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:48,320 Speaker 2: Our pastor was saying, you have to understand that anxiety 286 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 2: can be created from an illness. 287 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:53,439 Speaker 3: Or it can create an illness. 288 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:56,440 Speaker 2: And so how much how much have you seen the 289 00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:01,319 Speaker 2: impact on people's mental health, effect in their physical health 290 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 2: in the past two years, because COVID was just a 291 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:04,240 Speaker 2: shocked area. 292 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:07,320 Speaker 1: You know, it's beyond what you think. I mean, we're 293 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 1: looking the numbers, but I'm definitely even observing it on 294 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 1: my day to day basis, and I mean it's like 295 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 1: beyond what you think. And I want to tell you 296 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 1: it's not only then anxiety. People went to into depression 297 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 1: and anxiety and which diffinitely caused physical illness. So for example, 298 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 1: if people in severe pin or anxiety, their hard treat 299 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 1: will increase, would work more or require more blood, they 300 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 1: can kid crateacorists, the blood pressure will go higher. So 301 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 1: mentally and physically, what happened in twenty twenty is definitely 302 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 1: a dramatic change, and unfortunately, I'm the number of people 303 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 1: who couldn't cope with it are more than I thought, 304 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 1: because you know, I think we all were working, we 305 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 1: all went in the same stories, but a lot of 306 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: people didn't came out to the same and to continue 307 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 1: to suffer the consequences mentally and physically, which is something 308 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 1: we need to focus on to correct what happened to 309 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 1: people since twenty twenty. 310 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 2: I think that we also thought, well, kids are this 311 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 2: is all they know. It's not you know, it's not 312 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 2: going to affect them. But we saw tremendous differences in 313 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 2: our kids just from being trapped at home. I was 314 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 2: talking to a mom the other day of one of 315 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 2: my daughter's friends, and they're all fourteen, fifteen, sixteen year 316 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 2: old kids, and she said, during the pandemic. You know, 317 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 2: I felt so bad because they were trapped in the 318 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 2: house and I was not on them about exercise and 319 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 2: going out, and I just didn't really think about it. 320 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 2: And she said, we ended up having a massive weight 321 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 2: gain with our kids in our house, and I think 322 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 2: that's been something that we haven't considered either. We were 323 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 2: all very stagnant. We all just sat and I think 324 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 2: back to that time in Michigan. My kids really weren't 325 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 2: in the neighborhood. They weren't supposed to go outside because 326 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 2: they could run into other children, and there was a 327 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 2: long period of time where kids just didn't get to 328 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:50,600 Speaker 2: be kids. What are the health impacts at such a 329 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 2: young age of things like weight gain. I mean, we 330 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 2: hear weight gain can be so hard on adults, but 331 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 2: we're seeing that in kids. 332 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 1: Again, A very important point ten kids, and again because 333 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 1: I have kids, so I'm very passionate about what you 334 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 1: just said. So my son when the pandemic happened, was 335 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 1: three years old, and he all of a sudden wearing 336 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 1: a mask at three years old as a kid who 337 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 1: was learning to write, speak, interact with other students. I 338 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: can remember one day he came to me like give 339 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 1: me a hug and tell me, Daddy, I don't have 340 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 1: any friends, which broke my heart because he was not 341 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 1: going to school and we started getting him out some 342 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 1: pictures of his friends to remember, and so it was devastating. 343 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 1: And the problem is if people didn't pay attention. So 344 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 1: here's a reader. When stress happens overall, which I mean 345 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 1: the pandemic was unprecedented to us and on our kids. 346 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 1: If you're not really coushus how to cope with it, 347 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 1: I cannot assure you anybody who doesn't know how to 348 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 1: cope with this will go into huge psychiatric problem, whether 349 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 1: an adult or a kid. So we have to be 350 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 1: very aware of our mental health and seek help immediately. 351 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 1: If anybody or their kids having a problem, it's not 352 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 1: a stigma, it's not a shame. Please go seek help 353 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 1: because it's a very slippery slope. You can get the help, 354 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 1: you can get back on track, and if you little 355 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 1: to slide, it will develop into severe mental illness, which eventually, 356 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 1: I mean, if we're not doing well, our kids probably 357 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 1: will not do well as well. We need to all 358 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 1: be aware of our mental health and seek help for 359 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 1: our kids if they need it. Coping obviously was not 360 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 1: easy for many people. But it's not too late to 361 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:20,679 Speaker 1: seek help and just get out of the stigma of 362 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 1: seeking psych help. 363 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:25,400 Speaker 2: That actually leads in nicely to talking about chronic pain 364 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 2: because that can lead to depression as well. 365 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 3: And that you work at the pain clinic. 366 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:32,119 Speaker 2: I know you've done a lot to treat pain with 367 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 2: something outside of opioids. We have a crisis across this country, 368 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 2: so I think when you add in depression, chronic pain, 369 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 2: and opioids, you end up with a different type of epidemic. 370 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 2: And it seems as though we have had a drug 371 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 2: epidemic across this country. Really, it doesn't matter, doesn't discriminate, 372 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:59,640 Speaker 2: doesn't matter your age, doesn't matter, your socioeconomic status. People 373 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 2: are getting pulled into this opioid epidemic across the lines 374 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:07,200 Speaker 2: of the country. But you've come up with some ideas 375 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 2: to do something different. What motivated you to do that 376 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:13,679 Speaker 2: and how have you helped other people get out of 377 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 2: this opioid. 378 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:18,920 Speaker 1: Another great topic. Thank you for bringing this up. Yes, 379 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:21,640 Speaker 1: so I came to sconsin in a twenty fourteen and 380 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,160 Speaker 1: I was privileged one year after to join the state 381 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 1: board and we did the all the policies around opioids. 382 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:31,359 Speaker 1: So number one when it comes to opioids and pain overall, 383 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: when you have pain, people tend not to move. So 384 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 1: I will want you to think of this nice seven 385 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 1: year old patient, whether male or female, severe ne pain. 386 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 1: You start sitting more, not walking, not to walking their dogs, 387 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 1: not visiting their kids. They start gaining weight, eat more. 388 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:46,920 Speaker 1: You know how we sit on TV popcorn and start 389 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:49,719 Speaker 1: gaining weight. And then you put more weight on than 390 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 1: it gets worse, and then you're not visiting your family. 391 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 1: You start developing bit depressed, the anxious you start blaming 392 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 1: them for not visiting you. And the family dilemma and 393 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:01,439 Speaker 1: the social problem create depression. Stress. You go to your 394 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 1: physician asking for a poids and it will be unfortunate 395 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 1: if they treat this with a pioids. Because you take opioids, 396 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:09,879 Speaker 1: you become more sleepy again, more weight, you become an addict, 397 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 1: and all of a sudden it went from some knee 398 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 1: pain to now psycho problem, weight, gain, more pain, lack 399 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 1: of social life. And actually we have seen patients who 400 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:23,119 Speaker 1: committed suicide immediately due to this, and that's not how 401 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 1: we practice here. We see them in other practice. How 402 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 1: we do it here is we try to do everything 403 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 1: other than opioids, and there are many many other medications, procedures, interventions. 404 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:34,960 Speaker 1: We do whatever it takes to avoid the use of 405 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:39,359 Speaker 1: opioids because we know epioids is just the way the 406 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 1: body will get used of them. They will develop craving. 407 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:44,360 Speaker 1: It's a physiological process. It has nothing to do. I mean, 408 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:46,920 Speaker 1: some people are more vulnerable than others. And we mentioned 409 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:49,719 Speaker 1: some people are not cautious about developing the craving. Some 410 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:52,159 Speaker 1: others will be and will stop, but most people are 411 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 1: not aware. So it's a physiological process. And I keep 412 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:57,360 Speaker 1: telling the patient no matter how strong you are, it's 413 00:19:57,400 --> 00:19:59,239 Speaker 1: your body with crowk fear. It is not you. It's 414 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:01,919 Speaker 1: a physiological process. You take it, you want more. It's drugs. 415 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 1: You can't say I'm going to use heroin for the 416 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 1: next month and I'll be fine. I'll come to know. 417 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 1: You will not control it. It doesn't change your brain, 418 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:11,159 Speaker 1: it doesn't change your needs, and you'll keep asking for heroin. 419 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 1: So that's why don't just start it because it will 420 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:16,359 Speaker 1: lead to this. Of course, there are appropriate for certain patients, 421 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:19,919 Speaker 1: but it's not appropriate for many patients. That datim Nowadays, 422 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:22,439 Speaker 1: we looked also into data. We found that the US 423 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:26,119 Speaker 1: is probably the highest worldwide consumer of opioids, so it's 424 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 1: goant to be the only We are the highest consumers 425 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:31,160 Speaker 1: in some medication. We consume eighty percent of the world 426 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:35,119 Speaker 1: medication in certain types. So and we're publishing on this 427 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 1: data now because people need to understand. And again I 428 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 1: like to speak science and speak to my patients. I 429 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:42,400 Speaker 1: tell them, the whole world is managing it without opioids. 430 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 1: If you go to other countries, getting opioids is closely impossible, 431 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:47,920 Speaker 1: and they treat their pin fine, they do fine, they 432 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 1: do other things. So we that is. 433 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:53,920 Speaker 2: But you know, I will say it seems as though 434 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 2: it changed over the past few years because I was 435 00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 2: diagnosed with cancer in twenty fifteen, and I had my 436 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 2: surgery in October of that year, and I came home 437 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 2: with bottles of opioids that I was never going to 438 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 2: never and I never did end up using them, and 439 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:13,919 Speaker 2: I had and then my second so then I had 440 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:15,920 Speaker 2: to go back for a second surgery, and I came 441 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:18,719 Speaker 2: home with a smaller bottle, and then I ended up 442 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:21,239 Speaker 2: having a third surgery that was the exact same as 443 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:23,239 Speaker 2: the second, and they sent me home with advil, and 444 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:25,960 Speaker 2: this was in twenty nineteen, so it seems as though 445 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:28,680 Speaker 2: there were some changes even in the medical system over 446 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 2: that three to four year period. 447 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 1: Absolutely, Firstul, sorry to hear you had those surgeons and cancer. 448 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:35,880 Speaker 1: I had no idea. So you've gone through a lot 449 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 1: and surgeries, and probably you're familiar with how pain can 450 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 1: be and how it can be managed. And everything you 451 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:44,919 Speaker 1: mentioned is very accurity because over the years, definitely we 452 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 1: started flashing the light on this and the public health problem, 453 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,679 Speaker 1: and it has improved. For example, the National Surveys found 454 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:55,679 Speaker 1: that about sixty five fillion years ago, sixty five percent 455 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 1: of patients who get an opioid prescription after a surgery 456 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,439 Speaker 1: they don't actually use it. They don't. So we started 457 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 1: developing algorithms about which surgeries maybe big surgeries you need opioids, 458 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:07,439 Speaker 1: the others take ib profit tile and all or we 459 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: started saying, oh, give only three days. If you need more, 460 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:12,400 Speaker 1: take more. So definitely what he say is absolutely appropriate 461 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 1: and really accurate about we shifted from because when you 462 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 1: have the bottle sitting at home, you wonder what's happening 463 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:21,400 Speaker 1: to that bottle of kids are having reached to it adults, 464 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:24,360 Speaker 1: then people develop in after a year and start self 465 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:26,360 Speaker 1: con medicaid and it all lead to what we talk 466 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 1: about now. So it has definitely improved, but we need 467 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:32,480 Speaker 1: to do more work because I feel the pandemic. Unfortunately, 468 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 1: with the lockdown, people got back on opioids because you 469 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 1: couldn't go to a surgical center, you couldn't get an injection, 470 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:40,919 Speaker 1: you couldn't get many other services. Usually you need to 471 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:42,920 Speaker 1: go outside the home to get So we have seen 472 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:46,160 Speaker 1: another rise. We have seen fenton, which is another huge 473 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:50,119 Speaker 1: problem like coming to us from other countries, which is 474 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 1: now probably the major health problem. Still an opioid, but 475 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 1: people have reached to it illegally. But so the problem 476 00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 1: continue to exist. It has improved, but we need to 477 00:22:59,240 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 1: continue to do something. 478 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,919 Speaker 3: Let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on 479 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 3: the Tutor Dixon podcast. 480 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 2: I think that younger kids now are learning about the 481 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 2: dangers of drugs in school, and my daughter's heard someone 482 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:17,119 Speaker 2: on the news the other night say something about of 483 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,919 Speaker 2: some medical professional talking about using fentanyl in the hospital 484 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 2: and they were like, how could they possibly. I think 485 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:27,119 Speaker 2: it's interesting to me because they understand how dangerous it is, 486 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:30,920 Speaker 2: they don't understand that it actually can be used in 487 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:34,639 Speaker 2: very small doses in a medical setting. How do you 488 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:38,960 Speaker 2: think that this epidemic that we've seen is affecting young kids? 489 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:40,879 Speaker 2: Because I remember when I was young, it was the 490 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:44,400 Speaker 2: whole you know, war on drugs, and we were involved 491 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 2: in these different committees at school to talk about it, 492 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 2: and we really talked about it quite a bit in 493 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 2: middle and high school, and I it seemed as though 494 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 2: for an entire generation that stopped. 495 00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:01,080 Speaker 1: Yes. Unfortunately, education as a whole another public health problems 496 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 1: in my opinion, because we started talking in schools about 497 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 1: things we shouldn't be talking about, and we started to 498 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:09,640 Speaker 1: be more disorganized. Like I mentioned, this should be some 499 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:13,680 Speaker 1: forms of scientific discussions for kids to learn about what's 500 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 1: going on. Unfortunately, the resources became the TV, and you 501 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 1: know the TV, it's they talk what they want to 502 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 1: talk to serve certain I don't know, political or certain 503 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:30,119 Speaker 1: personal beliefs, ignoring science to big parts that I myself 504 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:35,919 Speaker 1: stopped even looking into the news media anymore, because it 505 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 1: has to be more done again based on science, based 506 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:40,920 Speaker 1: on literature. Even when I talk to my kids and 507 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 1: now I'll bring up the computer, I'll bring them an 508 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:48,399 Speaker 1: article that respectable makes sense, to read. We can't just 509 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 1: have our information from others people opinions. This is completely wrong. 510 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:56,239 Speaker 1: And again we need to look at data, we need 511 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 1: to look at literature, and we need to have the 512 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 1: appropriate forum scientific creed to teach people. And I worry 513 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:04,199 Speaker 1: so much about the generations growing up not thinking this 514 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,160 Speaker 1: way because we see the endomness that can happen and 515 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 1: the brainwash that can happen if we don't teach people 516 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 1: go to a resource to learn about things. Again, we 517 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 1: need to turn our kids to go to a resource. 518 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:18,199 Speaker 1: They come to ask me something, I'll tell them, you 519 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 1: know what, Just let us go on someday ask our 520 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,879 Speaker 1: priests about this religious question. If I don't know, you know, 521 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 1: we need to have good resources, scientific based from people 522 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: who know what they're talking about. 523 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 3: You actually are one of those. 524 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,159 Speaker 2: I know that you have put stuff out on social media, 525 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 2: and I think this is interesting because a lot of 526 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 2: young people don't know. Young people are experiencing pain now, 527 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,640 Speaker 2: I would say in higher levels than when I was young. 528 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 2: We have fibromyalgia. People are talking about these things. Now, 529 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:51,119 Speaker 2: you've got sports injuries. I know a lot of males, 530 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 2: especially when they have a sports injury, are less likely 531 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 2: to want to talk about it because they don't want 532 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,200 Speaker 2: to look like they're in pain. But these things exist, 533 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 2: and I think normalizing it, having doctor out there talking 534 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 2: about it helps to give them a safe space to 535 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 2: at least here and then process that and maybe talk 536 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 2: to a parent or a coach at school or something. 537 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:14,360 Speaker 2: So where can people find that? Because I know you're 538 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 2: out there, I know you're trying to help folks, So 539 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:17,440 Speaker 2: where do they find you? 540 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 1: Oh? Thank you? So, first of all, you know, I 541 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:24,119 Speaker 1: started teaching on TikTok on an Instagram. Unfortunately, my Facebook 542 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,399 Speaker 1: got hacked the last week, so I'm trying to retrieve it, 543 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:28,880 Speaker 1: so it's either right now, but I'll be teaching through 544 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:33,720 Speaker 1: Facebook through like great people like you who invite me 545 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:37,040 Speaker 1: to talk to spread the word out. You know, I 546 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 1: publish and I do research. I edited thirty books and 547 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,680 Speaker 1: I'll keep teaching more. And that's what we need to 548 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 1: do together, Just keep teaching, teaching, teaching. The outcome is 549 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 1: the outcome. That's why we go transparent. We do our work, 550 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,600 Speaker 1: we do our science, and whatever comes that people know 551 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:53,960 Speaker 1: about it. There's no shame at all from even coming 552 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:55,919 Speaker 1: back and say, sorry, this is a data had and 553 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 1: this has happened historically. A lot people came up with 554 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 1: good data and then said, no, it was not good, 555 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 1: but why not. It's better you know now than never. 556 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 1: Just to always teach and change your mind. That's fine 557 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,200 Speaker 1: if you find something different, and just keep the integrity 558 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 1: of the science and avoid the personal opinions, which are unfortunately, 559 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:15,440 Speaker 1: very very harmful. 560 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,159 Speaker 2: And I think also if you're feeling pain, there's no 561 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 2: reason to feel ashamed about that. I know my mom 562 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:23,920 Speaker 2: was taking care of my dad when he was sick 563 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 2: and she had severe back pain and she just kept 564 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 2: pushing it off and pushing it off, and finally went 565 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,240 Speaker 2: in and said, I've got the severe back pain and 566 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,200 Speaker 2: they said, actually, this is your hip. 567 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:34,680 Speaker 3: You need to do something about your hip. 568 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 2: But there's still anxiety about that, and I think that 569 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:41,680 Speaker 2: it's something that we need to say when this happens, 570 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,640 Speaker 2: it's okay to be concerned about it, but make sure 571 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,160 Speaker 2: you're looking at what the options are, because you don't 572 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:51,440 Speaker 2: necessarily have to be downing opioids every day completely. 573 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 1: And actually, one more piece of information that's important when 574 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:56,439 Speaker 1: you pain early on, Like if I had pain and 575 00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 1: in three months I went to seek help the chances 576 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,640 Speaker 1: of recovery are way higher than if you're with three years, 577 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,920 Speaker 1: because it said the brains start actually the anxiety and 578 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 1: the brain start actually making some change that becomes what 579 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,119 Speaker 1: we call a central pain where it becomes much harder 580 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:14,240 Speaker 1: to treat. So actually early intervention have shown by science 581 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:17,160 Speaker 1: to improve the outcomes on the long term. 582 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 3: Interesting. 583 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,680 Speaker 2: So you heard it here. If you're feeling pain, take 584 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:22,440 Speaker 2: care of it now. I do think that you can 585 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:25,200 Speaker 2: become just it becomes a part of your life and 586 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:26,480 Speaker 2: then it is very hard to. 587 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 3: Ever get over that. 588 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:29,119 Speaker 1: Yes, if you have pain, if you have psycho problem, 589 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,400 Speaker 1: I have any problem, please go seek help and don't 590 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 1: let it get you. 591 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 3: Well, thank you so much. 592 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,320 Speaker 2: We are definitely going to have you back when you 593 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 2: have some of I know you said in two weeks 594 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 2: you'll have that data, and that to me is incredibly 595 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:44,680 Speaker 2: important because I do think I mean, I'm one of 596 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 2: them that I see these things where people have blood 597 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 2: clots and I'm like, I'm just waiting for what's going 598 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:51,680 Speaker 2: to happen to me. 599 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:54,239 Speaker 3: You know, I'm always nervous about it. 600 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 2: So I love the idea that you are looking at 601 00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 2: this so that we can have some clarity and if 602 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 2: let me ask you this, because, like I said, I 603 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 2: am worried about this. If there were something that said 604 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 2: people are at a higher likelihood of having blood clots 605 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 2: if they've had the vaccine, then is there some way 606 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 2: of monitoring that. So it's not some shocking, horrific event. 607 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 1: Absolutely, So we need to again find the data first, 608 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:19,959 Speaker 1: and again we will talk about what we find. If 609 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 1: we find there is no relation, there's no relation. If 610 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 1: there's a relation, there's a relation. We just need to 611 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 1: look what's going on and then take the corrective appropriate 612 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 1: measures at least or through our education if we can, 613 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 1: through reaching to our politicians to just have you know, 614 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:38,360 Speaker 1: more science and politics working together for the good of people. 615 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, let's come together and start talking about this stuff. 616 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 2: So it's not so dramatic. That sounds good to me. 617 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you and thanks for having me again and 618 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 1: thanks for doing what you do. 619 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, doctor Allah Abd al Sa'id, I hope I'm 620 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 2: saying that correctly. We want to make sure that people 621 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 2: are able to find you. So doctor Allah Abd al 622 00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 2: said he is he is the medical director at you 623 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 2: University of Wisconsin Pain Clinic. Make sure you check him out. 624 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 2: He's giving you great information all the time, putting it 625 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:08,760 Speaker 2: out there so that people don't have to they can 626 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:11,120 Speaker 2: seek help, and then they can figure out what their 627 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 2: problem is and find somebody that can help them one 628 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 2: on one. So I appreciate everything you do. I'm so 629 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 2: glad we met because I just loved this conversation. I 630 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:21,560 Speaker 2: think that you said so many important things for so 631 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 2: many people. So thank you for being here. 632 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 1: No, thank you, and thanks for having me. And again 633 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,720 Speaker 1: I enjoyed our discussion. And keep doing what you're doing. 634 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 1: It's very important and very impactful. 635 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 2: Thank you, and thank you all for joining us on 636 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,920 Speaker 2: the Tutor Dixon Podcast. As always, for this episode and others, 637 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 2: go to tutordisonpodcast dot com. You can subscribe right there, 638 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 2: or check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 639 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 2: you get your podcasts, and make sure you join us 640 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:46,480 Speaker 2: the next time. 641 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 3: Have an awesome day.