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Speaker 1: Hey there, folks. He has been on death row for

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Speaker 1: thirty six years. But in the next week, one of

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Speaker 1: two things is going to happen. He's either going to

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Speaker 1: get a new trial or he is going to walk

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Speaker 1: out of prison. And with that, welcome to this episode

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Speaker 1: of Amy and TJ Presents. We don't get these everyday rogue.

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Speaker 1: So we're talking about a guy who's been on death

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Speaker 1: row for a long time and the clock is ticking,

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Speaker 1: something's going to happen.

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Speaker 2: That's right. This is one of Alabama's longest serving death

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Speaker 2: row inmates, sixty three year old Michael Sockwell. Yes, he's

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Speaker 2: been on death row for thirty six years. He's been

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Speaker 2: on death row since nineteen ninety after he was convicted

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Speaker 2: of killing a sheriff's deputy. His name was Isaiah Harris.

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Speaker 2: But this is now a situation in which prosecutors, yes,

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Speaker 2: have days to make a decision whether or not to

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Speaker 2: retry Michael Sockwell. And this has serious implications in terms

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Speaker 2: of the prosecutorial conduct and how they seeded the jury

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Speaker 2: in Michael Sockwell's case.

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Speaker 1: Let's be clear here, folks. We have seen a bunch

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Speaker 1: of cases where the guilt or innocence of someone on

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Speaker 1: death row is questioned. We've seen cases where they say

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Speaker 1: circumstances are a little different and maybe the sentence need

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Speaker 1: to be changed. That is not the conversation we're having here.

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Speaker 1: No one's beating a drama and saying this man is

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Speaker 1: innocent and we have evidence he needs to be off

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Speaker 1: death row. What they're saying here, robe is he never

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Speaker 1: got a fair trial in the first place.

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Speaker 2: Correct, And we should point out Sockwell does maintain his innocence.

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Speaker 2: He says he did not commit this crime. He actually

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Speaker 2: has the finger pointed at someone specifically who he says,

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Speaker 2: in fact, did the killing. But you are correct. This

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Speaker 2: is not an issue of guilter innocence. This is an

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Speaker 2: issue of who was seated on the jury and why

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Speaker 2: and a DA who apparently had a quote significant history

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Speaker 2: of refusing to seat black jurors on the jury.

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Speaker 1: Big no, No, We've seen a lot of movies and

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Speaker 1: actually we've seen a lot of actual trials. Lawyers get

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Speaker 1: a lot of leeway and saying I don't want that

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Speaker 1: juror for whatever reason. Sometimes you just get a strike.

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Speaker 1: You just say nope, nope, nope, like yourself out. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: you have to give a reason. You can't give a

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Speaker 1: reason of they black, they gotta go right, that's not allowed.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and specifically, this DA we're talking about. Her name

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Speaker 2: is Ellen Brooks, but she in this case in particular,

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Speaker 2: and there are other cases that the courts have cited,

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Speaker 2: she struck eighty percent of qualified black prospective jurors, and

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Speaker 2: qualified being the key. There was no other reason to

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Speaker 2: disqualify them. They had preconceived notions, they were against the

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Speaker 2: death penalty, they knew too much about the case. They

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Speaker 2: didn't think they could be unbiased. No, none of that.

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Speaker 2: Those are the reasons why you can strike a juror.

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Speaker 2: You cannot strike a juror because they look like your defendant.

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Speaker 2: And that's essentially what she put in her notes, that

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Speaker 2: she struck a jurors specifically because he had the same

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Speaker 2: he was the same race, the same sex, and the

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Speaker 2: same age as the defendant.

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Speaker 1: That'd be the exact guy what went on my jury, right,

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Speaker 1: and that is the exact person this prosecutor did not want. Again,

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Speaker 1: you can not do that. So roads they have been

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Speaker 1: fighting and fighting and fighting for this guy for years.

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Speaker 1: His attorney's happened. Finally in appeals court last year last

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Speaker 1: summer stepped in voted. I think the vote was two

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Speaker 1: to one, but saying yeah, his rights were violated, this

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Speaker 1: guy should get a new trial, or you need to

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Speaker 1: let him out of prison. Now that was last summer

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Speaker 1: roadse But they gave a date and a deadline that

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Speaker 1: now is it's knocking on the door.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, March eighteen. That is next Wednesday. Depending. I don't

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Speaker 2: know when anyone's listening to this, but yes, they got

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Speaker 2: a couple of days left to actually pursue a new

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Speaker 2: trial or he's released from prison. And initially the DA's

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Speaker 2: office said yeah, we're definitely going to pursue knew charges

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Speaker 2: were going to retry this case. And yet silence, crickets.

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Speaker 1: Have corn, no quiet. Now are you going to go

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Speaker 1: through with it?

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Speaker 2: You know? I think they have to weigh the expense

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Speaker 2: and look, multiple people were convicted for this crime, not

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Speaker 2: just Sockwell, including the victim's wife, who police say was

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Speaker 2: the mastermind of this killing.

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Speaker 1: We've got it. There's got to be a snapped episode

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Speaker 1: about this. The murder for hire is what they're saying was, Yes,

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Speaker 1: the woman, the wife was behind it. She had the

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Speaker 1: death penalty. Initially, I think was ended up that right

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Speaker 1: ended up coming back to life in prison. But yes,

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Speaker 1: she is serving for this crime. I think that is

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Speaker 1: going to be his challenge robed in why this will

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Speaker 1: get a new trial, because you're not just this isn't

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Speaker 1: just the death penalty phase of it. We're talking about

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Speaker 1: a whole new trial.

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Speaker 2: Correct.

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Speaker 1: So this is the guy you think is a cop killer,

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Speaker 1: you got to retry it.

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Speaker 2: Yes, So the crime, by the way, Sheriff Sipputy Isaiah Harris,

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Speaker 2: he was on his way to work and police say

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Speaker 2: that he was shot in the face. This happened in

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty eight. That's how far back this goes. But

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Speaker 2: he was shot in the face in a murder for

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Speaker 2: higher plot that was arranged by his wife. And yes,

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Speaker 2: Harris's wife was convicted. She is now serving life in prison.

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Speaker 2: But she was having an affair. She claimed she was

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Speaker 2: being abused by her husband and she was having an affair. Now,

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Speaker 2: Sockwell says, wasn't me, It was her lover. It was

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Speaker 2: her the guy who she was having an affair with.

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Speaker 2: That's who killed her husband, not me.

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Speaker 1: And that is not what courts have been ruling on.

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Speaker 1: They are not listening to his guilt or isn't innocence?

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Speaker 1: They are listening to whether or not he got a

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Speaker 1: fair trial, and that's the only determination. So rose that. So, yes,

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Speaker 1: I think everybody on death row and cell block D

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Speaker 1: says they're innocent, right, But so they're not listening to that.

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Speaker 1: But the Supreme Court didn't necessarily take up the case.

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Speaker 1: So after the court down there ruled he should get

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Speaker 1: a new trial to get out of prison, Alabama appealed

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Speaker 1: to the Supreme Court. Supreme Court essentially saying, we ain't

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Speaker 1: trying to hear it. Yes, So they did not issue

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Speaker 1: a ruling, They did not take up the case, and

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Speaker 1: in doing so, the only decision that now stands is

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Speaker 1: the one that's from that lower court. So, now, prosecutors,

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Speaker 1: what you going to do? Yeah, we are literally he's waiting. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he's seven, he's been on death row for thirty six years,

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Speaker 1: and he is days away from determining whether or not

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Speaker 1: he's going to walk out of that place.

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Speaker 2: That's an insane situation. And you know, I actually listening

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Speaker 2: or reading the Federal Appeals Court ruling, I mean they

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Speaker 2: were very strong in their language talking about the misconduct

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Speaker 2: that took place in seeding this jury. They said Alabama

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Speaker 2: prosecutors repeatedly and purposefully rejected qualified black jurors. And this

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Speaker 2: was their their big statement that stood out. Equal justice

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Speaker 2: under law requires a criminal trial free of racial discrimination

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Speaker 2: in the jury selection process period, and that is why

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Speaker 2: we are where we are today.

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Speaker 1: This was Alabama in the late eighties.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and when they talked about and this all

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Speaker 2: was detailed in this appellate court ruling. But the da

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Speaker 2: Ellen Brooks and we mentioned, they said she had a

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Speaker 2: significant history of striking jurors based on their racial basically

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Speaker 2: if they were black. Let's just put it, say it

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Speaker 2: like it is. And so they said that there were

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Speaker 2: several instances of Ellen Brooks striking black jurors. The quote

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Speaker 2: was Brooks purposefully struck black jurors in the cases she prosecuted.

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Speaker 2: So this was not the only case.

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Speaker 1: And it's not just and it's interesting. It was uh no,

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Speaker 1: that's the cow My god, Did I really just try

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Speaker 1: to recite precedent of Batson, bats and versus Kentucky. You

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Speaker 1: are correct that, yes, bats and versus Kentucky is the one.

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Speaker 1: It is the President sett in case to where you

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Speaker 1: cannot discriminate based on race when it comes to juris

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Speaker 1: because not only is it a violation of that defendants right,

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Speaker 1: it's actually discrimination against the jury, your discrimination against that

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Speaker 1: person for racial reasons. So this is well established and

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Speaker 1: this is a major no no. And so Robes it's

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Speaker 1: hard to argue with this to say, oh, he's a

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Speaker 1: cop killer, just throw away the key. I mean, this

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Speaker 1: is sometimes the beauty of our system. Robes that even yes,

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Speaker 1: the guy convicted of being a cop killer went on trial,

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Speaker 1: got the death penalty, we're determining thirty six years later,

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Speaker 1: he wasn't treated fairly in the process. That there's some

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Speaker 1: beauty in the system.

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Speaker 2: There somewhere Ropes that that could eventually happen for a

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Speaker 2: black man in Alabama.

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Speaker 1: Yes, the problem is that it happened in the first place.

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Speaker 2: Correct. And here there's another interesting twist to this in

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Speaker 2: that the jury that convicted him, they voted seven to

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Speaker 2: five for life imprisonment, so they voted against the death penalty,

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Speaker 2: but the judge overrode the jury's recommendation and handed down

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Speaker 2: the death sentence. Anyway, by the way, that is illegal now,

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Speaker 2: but it was legal up until twenty seventeen. Alabama was

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Speaker 2: the last state in this country to stop that practice

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Speaker 2: of a judge being able to overturn a jury's recommendation

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Speaker 2: for punishment. And so that happened to him. That couldn't

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Speaker 2: happen today. If he were sentenced today, he would have

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Speaker 2: gotten the life. He would have gotten life in prison,

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Speaker 2: not the death compy.

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Speaker 1: It's so it's wild that that was permitted at all.

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Speaker 1: The jury decides what it wants to happen, and you're saying, nope,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna do something else. That's just bizarre. And one

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Speaker 1: are the others that we've covered a lot of these,

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Speaker 1: a lot of death penalty cases Forbes, the other I

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Speaker 1: can't remember the states, but some of them even have

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Speaker 1: where it doesn't have to be unanimous to get the

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Speaker 1: death penalty.

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Speaker 2: Correct, you're that it seems like when it's something that significant,

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Speaker 2: it should be unanimous, just like the jury's verdict needs

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Speaker 2: to be unanimous about guilt or innocence. It seems though,

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Speaker 2: that same that same standard should be applied to whether

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Speaker 2: or not you live or die.

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Speaker 1: Can you imagine you found guilty and the vote was

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Speaker 1: seven to.

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Speaker 2: Five or something, Yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: That's you're mad. I did put you on the spot.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I couldn't remember how many jurors are seated.

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Speaker 1: I can see you have the look on your face.

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Speaker 1: Is it terrified?

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Speaker 2: Is it fourteen?

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Speaker 1: I can't remember the idea there. It just that seems

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Speaker 1: wild as well. So, yes, that a judge could override

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Speaker 1: when a jury said what they wanted to have into

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Speaker 1: the man. We should start there even with this case.

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Speaker 2: All right, when we come back, we're going to tell

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Speaker 2: you what the reaction was from the Sockwell camp to

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Speaker 2: the Supreme Court's decision, and what may happen next. Welcome

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Speaker 2: back everyone to this episode of Amy and TJ Presents.

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Speaker 2: We are following a court case that is thirty six

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Speaker 2: years in the making and only has a few days

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Speaker 2: left for us to know what is going to happen next.

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Speaker 2: We are talking about a case out of Montgomery County, Alabama,

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Speaker 2: where sixty three year old Michael Sockwell has been on

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Speaker 2: death row since nineteen ninety. He was convicted for a

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty eight killing of a sheriff's deputy. It was

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Speaker 2: a murder for hire. The sheriff deputy's wife is behind bars.

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Speaker 2: She was convicted initially to the death penalty, but I

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Speaker 2: ended up getting life in prison, and now we have

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Speaker 2: a The Supreme Court decided not to listen to the

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Speaker 2: State of Alabama's appeal to a lower court's ruling that said,

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Speaker 2: guess what, the DA acted improperly when seeding this jury.

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Speaker 2: And this DA has a history of acting improperly. When

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Speaker 2: I say improperly, she has a significant history of striking

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Speaker 2: black jurors for black defendants. That's a big no no.

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Speaker 1: We've seen attorneys question potential jurors before this process. I

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Speaker 1: only imagine this one. She doesn't have to ask questions. Nope, nope, nope,

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Speaker 1: black black, black, bye bye bye. Like that seems they

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Speaker 1: are actually saying, that's all she was doing. You don't

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Speaker 1: have to I'm saying, not literally, but quite frankly, don't

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Speaker 1: need to ask them questions about their background. I don't need

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Speaker 1: to look at the questionnaire. That's a black person. There's

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Speaker 1: a black person. There's a black person. Don't want you

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Speaker 1: on my jerry.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And in her notes she said it, there was

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Speaker 2: no denying it, that there was no other reason to

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Speaker 2: not seat them, and so they were all qualified to

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Speaker 2: sit on that jury based on the questions they were asked.

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Speaker 2: And that's the point, and she struck. There were ten

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Speaker 2: potential black durers left to be seated. She struck eight

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Speaker 2: of them for no reason other than the fact that

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Speaker 2: they were black. You can't do that. And so yes,

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Speaker 2: the court finally, thirty six years later, I guess this

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Speaker 2: all this decision initially happened last summer in June of

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty five. But they said, hey, okay, prosecution, you

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Speaker 2: now have a timeline by March eighteenth. Either you start,

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Speaker 2: or you retry this man, or you let him go.

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Speaker 2: So Michael Sockwell either gets a new trial as of

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Speaker 2: March eighteenth or he gets out of jail.

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Speaker 1: They have to they have to try him. That you

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Speaker 1: have to. They have to ropes. This is a guy

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Speaker 1: that Nope, they're not saying is possibly innocent. Are you

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Speaker 1: really going to say, okay, that was enough years. You

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Speaker 1: serve thirty six and that was enough for killing a.

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Speaker 2: Copy I agree from just from so many different points

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Speaker 2: of view, they have to retry this case.

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Speaker 1: Now, remind me where's this happening?

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Speaker 2: Montgomery County, Alabama. And they said when, Yes, when, when

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Speaker 2: this decision came down by the lower court, It was

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Speaker 2: a federal court in June. The Montgomery County Prosecute the

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Speaker 2: DA's and they said, Okay, we are absolutely going to

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Speaker 2: retry this case. But they have not officially commented since

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Speaker 2: the Supreme Court refused to hear the state's appeal, so

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Speaker 2: we don't know. They haven't made another announcement since June

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Speaker 2: of twenty twenty five as to what they're going to do.

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Speaker 2: Maybe they were banking on the fact that the Supreme

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Speaker 2: Court was going to back them up and throw out

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Speaker 2: the Appellate Court's decision, but that did not happen, and

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Speaker 2: so now the ball is literally in their court. And

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Speaker 2: Michael Sockwell's defense lawyers had this to say when the

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Speaker 2: Supreme Court decided not to rule or not to look

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Speaker 2: into the Appellate Court's decision, they said, we appreciate the

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Speaker 2: Supreme Court's decision. Michael has been denied his right to

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Speaker 2: a fair trial for more than thirty five years, will

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Speaker 2: continue to fight for his freedom.

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Speaker 1: I haven't seen we've been looking at and covering the story.

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Speaker 1: I haven't seen much of a drumbeat of anybody saying

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Speaker 1: he's innocent to saying he's going to get a chance

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Speaker 1: to present some new evidence that something is going to change.

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Speaker 1: That's not that drum beat, correct.

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Speaker 2: Well from Michael Sockwell, there is. He's claiming it was

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Speaker 2: the wife's lover who actually killed the sheriff's deputy, not him.

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Speaker 1: So the guy on trial is blaming somebody else. That's

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Speaker 1: a new one. I'm saying, this is not that when

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Speaker 1: it's not that thing. There have been plenty where there

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Speaker 1: are questions. Even Hell, we've seen some of the families

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Speaker 1: of the victims come forward and defend the defendant to

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Speaker 1: a certain this is nothing along those lines. But he

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Speaker 1: has denied a fair trial. Thirty six later, years later,

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Speaker 1: we're trying to right or wrong. The wrong shouldn't have

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Speaker 1: happened in the first place. Sure, but I mean you

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Speaker 1: have to look at our system and go, Okay, this

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Speaker 1: is how it's supposed to work exactly.

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Speaker 2: And look, Michael Sockwell, as you point out, might still

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Speaker 2: be convicted for this crime, and almost certainly will be.

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Speaker 2: But will he get the death penalty? And that's the

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Speaker 2: other big question because again, the jury that was initially seated,

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Speaker 2: the jury that they say now was unfairly placed. The

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Speaker 2: racial makeup, I believe was ten white jurors two black

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Speaker 2: jurors that they voted against the death penal. They voted

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Speaker 2: for life imprisonment, and it was the judge who gave

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Speaker 2: him that death send. So at the very least, this

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Speaker 2: new trial would actually be the difference between life or death.

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Speaker 2: It might not be the difference between freedom and incarceration.

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Speaker 2: But certainly he has a shot at he's sixty five

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Speaker 2: years old, at growing old behind bars and potentially getting out.

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Speaker 2: That's still on the table, on.

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Speaker 1: The table, he has three options. But yeah, you're probably

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Speaker 1: right that continue to have he'll get off death row, right,

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Speaker 1: he will get I will imagine death row jury already

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Speaker 1: didn't want him on death row, so here we are

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Speaker 1: these years later. So yes, to that point, it's significant.

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Speaker 1: It's significant this, this decision or lack of one by

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Speaker 1: the Supreme Court might have just saved this man's life.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that is a very good way to put it.

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Speaker 2: And we will of course continue to follow this story

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Speaker 2: because yes, we are days away from getting an answer

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Speaker 2: from Alabama's prosecution or Montgomery County curatorial team to see

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Speaker 2: whether or not they will. I don't know how do

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Speaker 2: you get a new trial. You just say we're now

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Speaker 2: officially recharging or we're going to give him a new trial.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what the announcement.

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Speaker 1: Is, all right. The amount of paperwork, oh my goodness,

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Speaker 1: assume and things that have to be filed to get

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Speaker 1: this done and a judge has to sign off on it.

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Speaker 1: But they'll get it done. But this is we are

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Speaker 1: days away. We are going to find out, and wrote

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Speaker 1: we are not used to in cases like this. The

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Speaker 1: clock is usually ticking on the execution, correct, the clock

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Speaker 1: is ticking on is the governor going to step into

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Speaker 1: the Supreme Court going to step all those things? Now,

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Speaker 1: it's rare that the clock is ticking because we're waiting

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Speaker 1: on the prosecution to do something. Yeah, in a death

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Speaker 1: row case?

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Speaker 2: Right, But we wait, all right, we wait and we

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Speaker 2: will watch and we will keep you all updated. Thank

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Speaker 2: you though for listening to us. As always, I made

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Speaker 2: Wroteboch alongside TJ. Holmes. We will talk to you soon.