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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of I Heart Brady. Hello, welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Nol. They called

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Speaker 1: me Ben. We are joined as always with our super

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Speaker 1: producer Alexis code named Doc Holiday Jackson. Most importantly, you

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Speaker 1: are you. You are here, and that makes this the

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Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to know. I want to

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Speaker 1: open this week's listener mail segment with a very special

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Speaker 1: welcome to my neighbor's downstairs dog, who you may be

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Speaker 1: able to hear in the background, who is going through

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Speaker 1: some things. Be kind to your pets, the responsible dog owners,

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Speaker 1: and uh, if your dog is really going through something,

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Speaker 1: check on it. That's that's our takeaway from today. We

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Speaker 1: don't need to pay, we don't need to play the

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Speaker 1: Sarah McLaughlin song, but I'll know the one I'm talking about. Today,

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Speaker 1: We're going to look I'm doing it. I'm doing it.

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Speaker 1: I'm speaking up for the dog owners. When I leave

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Speaker 1: my house, my dog does that. So I have a

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Speaker 1: feeling your neighbor, Yes, I know, yeah, and you have

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Speaker 1: to go big on empathy. You have to have the

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Speaker 1: human moment. So hoping the dog is okay uh, And

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Speaker 1: thanking you, fellow conspiracy realists for tuning in today. We're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about issue near and dear to my heart. Uh.

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Speaker 1: The US is ongoing beef with the Hague. Uh. Also

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Speaker 1: another thing I think near and dear to all of us,

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Speaker 1: speculation about food supply apocalypse. You may be able to

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Speaker 1: see a deep dive of that on YouTube in the

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Speaker 1: near future. And then we're going to talk about a

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Speaker 1: conspiracy native to Amazon and TikTok. But maybe first, maybe

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Speaker 1: you know, we don't always open up with a voicemail Matt,

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Speaker 1: what do you think about that? I want to switch

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Speaker 1: things up a little today. Yes, then let's jump to

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Speaker 1: the phone lines. This is a message we received from Dirs.

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Speaker 1: Hey guys, it's dirts here and you can use this

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Speaker 1: on the air if you so choose. In your latest

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Speaker 1: episode of Strange News, you touched on the food supply

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Speaker 1: scare in lieu of Russia's war with Ukraine. And I

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Speaker 1: wanted to add something to that conversation. But it's not

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Speaker 1: gonna be the doom and gloom that it first appears

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Speaker 1: for this hanging there in that episode. And forgive me

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Speaker 1: if I'm incorrect, I didn't hear him mention anything about

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Speaker 1: rock floss faith. And uh, you know how rock foss

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Speaker 1: faith is mostly supplied by Russia and Ukraine, so we're

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Speaker 1: not getting that anymore. But before this war, scientists already

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Speaker 1: thought that we were gonna heat pique fosters. So what

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Speaker 1: like does that mean we just can't have food anymore?

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Speaker 1: Because we can't we can't mind this fertilizer out of

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Speaker 1: the ground. I don't think that we actually need to.

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Speaker 1: What do you guys know about perman culture. It's a

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Speaker 1: system of agriculture that combines philosophy with smart farming. Google it.

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Speaker 1: Using perman culture, farmers have reversed the certification of entire

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Speaker 1: fourth we mind fertilizer to like exploit a short cut

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Speaker 1: to a system that already existed before humans started interacting

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Speaker 1: with it. I nick mold fertilizer my yard with wheat.

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Speaker 1: That's Korean natural farming, which is a little bit different.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, perman culture at a mass scale proven to work.

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Speaker 1: It's the easiest, simplest, and most cohesive way to farm

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Speaker 1: to tell me, is Perman culture the stuff that they

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Speaker 1: don't want you to know. Thanks so much for your show, guys.

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Speaker 1: You guys actually covered the apocalypse. It's in a really

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Speaker 1: uh blessedly funny way. And I appreciate what some of

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Speaker 1: you every day. Thanks what a nice thing is so nice.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much. And and Matt you Uh. I'm

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Speaker 1: familiar with Perman culture actually from from some of my

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Speaker 1: outdoors time. You spoke with Thers and DRS actually wrote

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Speaker 1: to us. I believe, yes, permana culture is interesting. I

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Speaker 1: don't know much about it. I'm learning about it now

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Speaker 1: and the figure we would all learn about it together.

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Speaker 1: I did speak to DERs. He's my new best friend. Sorry, guys, Uh,

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Speaker 1: y'all are OUTDRS is in. That's just how it is,

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Speaker 1: so I'm kidding. He's just a very very cool guy. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Spoke to him a little bit. He's got a company

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Speaker 1: that specializes in Perman culture out there in Seattle, in

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Speaker 1: the Seattle area. I guess it's titled The Hermetic Order

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Speaker 1: of the Garden Dawn. Oh wow, snap, I love a

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Speaker 1: good I love it job. There's also um Perman culture,

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Speaker 1: as I'm sure there's pointed out. While the term itself

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Speaker 1: is from the nineties seventies, it's descended from some really

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Speaker 1: really old agricultural and husbandry practices. Yeah, it's a lot

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Speaker 1: of different things. Perman culture is many things. It is mostly,

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Speaker 1: as you said, um, indigenous people's practices, right, that kind

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Speaker 1: of got lost over time as industrialization came around, and

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Speaker 1: now it's kind of we're going back to those roots

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Speaker 1: if you will. It's it's a fascinating thing. I'll tell you. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'll just tell you some of the things here. By

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Speaker 1: the way, his company is quote a secret society of

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Speaker 1: plant lovers. It's pretty awesome. We talked about so many things.

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Speaker 1: One of the most interesting concepts that dur has talked

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Speaker 1: about is that people in general, our society, I guess

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Speaker 1: we see weeds that are on our lawns as problems,

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Speaker 1: weeds that are in our backyards as problems. I certainly do.

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Speaker 1: I'm preparing to sell my home and one of the

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Speaker 1: first things I did to try and beautify this place

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Speaker 1: to be able to make it marketable, is to get

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Speaker 1: rid of all the weeds, every single one of them. Uh,

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Speaker 1: scorched earth. Only grass will remain. And that's what I

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Speaker 1: decided to do and there are so many companies out

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Speaker 1: there that will do that for you. There's so many

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Speaker 1: products that you can do that on your own. And

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Speaker 1: there's main point, or one of his main points, was

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Speaker 1: that we should not do that. That's one of the

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Speaker 1: worst things you can do for the soil. If you

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Speaker 1: want to actually have healthy plants growing on that soil.

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Speaker 1: One of the worst things you can do is especially

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Speaker 1: apply herbicide and kill all those things. Anyway, as Dark said,

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Speaker 1: it's way more of a philosophy and a collection of

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Speaker 1: techniques than anything else, right, That's what permaculture is, philosophy

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Speaker 1: plus technique. I don't know where to where to begin here, guys.

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Speaker 1: Besides this peak phosphorus thing, which is a real existential

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Speaker 1: threat for me, even though it was kind of a

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Speaker 1: theory for a while that we had to throw a

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Speaker 1: little cold water on in the past. But at the

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Speaker 1: same time, it's a real issue at least when it

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Speaker 1: comes to how much it will cost to continue, you know,

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Speaker 1: getting these fertilizers the rock phosphates out of the ground

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Speaker 1: and then shipping them around the planet in order to

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Speaker 1: continue our industrial farming practices. It is a bit scary

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Speaker 1: to me. Have you guys heard anything about that recently? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I know. I mean Der's you are correct in the

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Speaker 1: way that the global phosphates rock system has been disrupted

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Speaker 1: by conflicts UM. I would also note to you earlier

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Speaker 1: point that because we did discuss this, I think briefly

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Speaker 1: a number of years ago, saying that things are like

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Speaker 1: when you said we threw some cold water on it,

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Speaker 1: which is to a degree true. Uh, we by no

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Speaker 1: means said it wasn't going to be a problem. There

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Speaker 1: are a lot of things that I think sometimes people

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Speaker 1: don't take it seriously because they hear really hyperbolic descriptions

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Speaker 1: of them. But just because some one sources being alarmist

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Speaker 1: does not in any way mean that the problem is

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Speaker 1: not there. It's like it's like the question about the

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Speaker 1: timing of when peak oil will be reached. It's a

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Speaker 1: very similar problem with peak phosphate UM. I think primarily

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Speaker 1: because no one really knows, like we know where the

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Speaker 1: um we know where you can mine phosphate rock in

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Speaker 1: a cost effective way. Now, Uh, we know that there

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Speaker 1: are certain areas that have great reserves of phosphorus, but

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Speaker 1: we don't know exactly when we will see those affordable

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Speaker 1: reserves exhausted. Is it going to be fifty to a

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Speaker 1: hundred years, is it gonna is peak phosphorus gonna be

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Speaker 1: twenty thirty? Is it going to be several hundreds of years? Uh?

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Speaker 1: The jury is out and there are a lot of

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Speaker 1: smart people who disagree on this. To me, it reminds

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Speaker 1: me of the rare Earth elements or the rare Earth materials. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: There's a ton of this stuff rock phosphate and and

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Speaker 1: mindable phosphate on the planet that we could access. It's

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Speaker 1: just it's concentrated in a few specific places where it's

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Speaker 1: economically feasible to mind it there. But otherwise it's just

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Speaker 1: spread out in ways that it would be difficult to

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Speaker 1: make a lot of money or to have it even

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Speaker 1: just a and a profitable company at all, to just

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Speaker 1: gather up the phosphate in these you know, various places

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Speaker 1: across the globe. So it could be a really big

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Speaker 1: problem headed our way. I guess the next thing we

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Speaker 1: need to do is kind of define what is permaculture

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Speaker 1: a little better, at least for my mind. Ben, you

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Speaker 1: mentioned the nineteen seventies is when the term at least

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Speaker 1: came around by a few Australian guys, Bill Mullison, David Holmgren,

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Speaker 1: and they've wrote a book's called perman Culture. One that

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Speaker 1: was really the thing that kicked off the movement of

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Speaker 1: perman culture. I suppose, yeah, and you and you you

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Speaker 1: raised a great point where, um, in some of the

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Speaker 1: conversations you and I have had in the past, and

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Speaker 1: what you just said now about your conversation with DR's

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Speaker 1: that there is a culture, a philosophy behind this. Uh.

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Speaker 1: The idea I think maybe for people who aren't familiar

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Speaker 1: with the term, we could go to, uh something you

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Speaker 1: would linked to from n C State with their appendix

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Speaker 1: on perman culture design. Um. I think they're introduction is

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Speaker 1: quite succinct and covers a lot of the bases, especially

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Speaker 1: like the three driving ethics or axioms of the belief.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's a perfect place to start, Ben. I'll

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Speaker 1: give you this quote that comes from that book as

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Speaker 1: a basic definition of sorts, and then we'll go into

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Speaker 1: the as ethics. The definition is quote, consciously designed landscapes

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Speaker 1: which mimic the patterns and relationships found in nature, while

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Speaker 1: yet yielding an abundance of food, fiber, and energy for

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Speaker 1: provision of local needs, so basically your local area, using

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Speaker 1: what's there and designing the thing out of what's already there,

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Speaker 1: like just making the land essentially work. It's in a

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Speaker 1: way it seems as though we kind of want the

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Speaker 1: land to work for us. We want this land to

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Speaker 1: make the corn. We want this land over here to

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Speaker 1: make the wheat, and that's all it is. That's all

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Speaker 1: it's gonna be. That's what we're gonna do. This philosophy.

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Speaker 1: It's way more like, well, what naturally grows over here, Uh,

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Speaker 1: what's edible that grows in this land already, let's design

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Speaker 1: it around that. So the former idea you outline is

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Speaker 1: mono agriculture, right, those are the things where those are

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Speaker 1: the practices where you see an entire swath of land

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Speaker 1: growing only soybeans or growing only you know, one specific

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Speaker 1: type of profitable crop in profitable and whatever current regime

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Speaker 1: you live in. But for much of human history this

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Speaker 1: wasn't the case. People lived closer to the land and

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Speaker 1: they were practicing the thing you describe. The latter idea,

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Speaker 1: which I think is superior um. If you are in

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Speaker 1: the United States, you might be familiar with the concept

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Speaker 1: of the Three Sisters, which is the corn beans and squash.

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Speaker 1: You plant them like you plant the beans at the

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Speaker 1: base of the cornstocks, and they helped support the bean

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Speaker 1: vines as they grow and reach the sunlight. You the

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Speaker 1: ideas you can um by farming. You can look at

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Speaker 1: it as not like helping plants work together and people

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Speaker 1: working with plants. You can also um. You can also

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Speaker 1: rotate the crops you grow in such a way that

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Speaker 1: enriches the soil, rather than growing just one crop that

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Speaker 1: over time could deplete the soil. So there's science to this.

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Speaker 1: What we're establishing is there is philosophy. There are ethical guidelines,

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Speaker 1: but there is like I'm sure DR's you would you

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Speaker 1: have probably had to point this out to people in

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Speaker 1: the past. There's solid science to back up a lot

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Speaker 1: of this stuff. Oh yeah, oh dude, there's all kinds

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Speaker 1: of science and fascinating things I've never heard about. Did

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Speaker 1: you guys know? There's a German method where you cut

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Speaker 1: your lawn that has grass on it, and you you

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Speaker 1: cut it into squares. Then you take that lawn and

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Speaker 1: you flip it over so the grass side is down,

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Speaker 1: and then and you leave that there, and then that

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Speaker 1: grass breaks down into the nutrients you need to feed

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Speaker 1: stuff that you plant into the soil. On top of that,

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Speaker 1: I've never heard of that. That's amazing. That's news to

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Speaker 1: me as well, Matt. I love learning new things. That's awesome.

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Speaker 1: That reminds duh when Scott Benjamin over at cars stuff

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Speaker 1: years ago. You know, Scott, I love the guy. Uh.

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Speaker 1: She told me. I was. I was doing a piece

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Speaker 1: on two two cycle engines, right, so I was fixing

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Speaker 1: all these little lawnmowers and is getting frustrated, and he

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Speaker 1: was like, you know what you should do, Ben You

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Speaker 1: should buy a goat lawn. And that's a real thing

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Speaker 1: people do. You can rent goats stick out your lawn,

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Speaker 1: and arguably it's more sustainable than than a gas guzzling motor.

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Speaker 1: But but I love like not do we know how

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Speaker 1: old that idea is in Germany or how recent? I

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Speaker 1: don't know. I'm here somewhere in one of these links

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Speaker 1: that I shared. Guys, it's a specific technique. Oh lord,

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Speaker 1: I'm not gonna be able to find it right now.

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Speaker 1: I missed a step. By the way. You have to

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Speaker 1: get decaying wood or like dry or older wood that's

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Speaker 1: just around somewhere from you know, probably just sticks falling

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Speaker 1: down and things like that. But you have to put

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Speaker 1: that wood between the ground and that grass layer that

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Speaker 1: you put on top, because that would breaks down in

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Speaker 1: the same way the grass breaks down, and that will

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Speaker 1: feed those plants that you put on top of it

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Speaker 1: for years, I guess, or at least for a long

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Speaker 1: time according to jurors. I don't know these things. Guys

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Speaker 1: is very smart and knows these things. Um, there's also

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Speaker 1: something I figured you guys might have encountered through ridiculous history.

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Speaker 1: You guys, ever heard of night soil? Oh? Yeah, night soil.

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Speaker 1: Human poop is fertilizer. Okay, it's sort of like gray

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Speaker 1: water maybe where you take the runoff or the you know,

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Speaker 1: parts of the water that you use in your house

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Speaker 1: that don't have human fecal matter in them and use

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Speaker 1: it for irrigation. Yeah. Night night soil is an historic

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Speaker 1: practice too. It's quite an efficient one. But but I

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Speaker 1: think what a lot of people might not know is

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Speaker 1: night soil is still commonly used as fertilizer today in

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Speaker 1: different parts of the world. That's right, That is right again.

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Speaker 1: Just mix your poop with wood chips and you've got

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Speaker 1: some really great fertilizer. That's that's what I wipe with.

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Speaker 1: Oh oh lord there. I mean there are controversies though

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Speaker 1: about it being linked to uh, some health concerns, you know,

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Speaker 1: but it makes sense when you're you know, like, imagine

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Speaker 1: you're a farmer. We'll just say, for the sake of argument,

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Speaker 1: hundreds of years ago, thousands of years ago, and uh,

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Speaker 1: and you don't have a big company. You don't also

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Speaker 1: have a general store where you buy fertilizer, so you

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Speaker 1: save it up the poop and then you're probably also

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Speaker 1: having a lot of kids because that's free labor. Right,

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Speaker 1: it was a very different time. All right, guys, I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna get to those ethics we never said them. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: This is according to um NC State North Carolina State University,

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Speaker 1: I'm assuming, and this is on one of their websites.

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Speaker 1: It's Appendix G Permaculture Design. It's from the North Carolina

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Speaker 1: Extension Gardner Handbook. Okay, here we go. Permit Ulture ethic

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Speaker 1: one Care for the Earth. Stop me when you feel

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Speaker 1: like this is sounding like guidestones. UM Care for the Earth.

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Speaker 1: The discipline looks to nature as a model for design.

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Speaker 1: Perman culture includes replicating and restoring natural systems. With this

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Speaker 1: ethic perman culture emphasizes organic and sustainable methods of working

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Speaker 1: with the land. It promotes the use of naturally occurring

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Speaker 1: and locally available materials for design, installation, and maintenance. Awesome,

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Speaker 1: and number two would be care for people. One primary

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Speaker 1: goal of perman culture is to provide for people's basic needs,

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Speaker 1: including food, shelter, human connection, education, and a sense of

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Speaker 1: purpose and place. A perman culture designer aims to produce

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Speaker 1: both food and pleasure. Whoa okay? Okay? Number three share

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Speaker 1: in the surplus. The third ethic is to share the

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Speaker 1: surplus ones basic needs are met an alignment with natural systems,

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Speaker 1: Excess yield is transferred to another system or person. Waste

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Speaker 1: becomes an asset to be repurposed. Now, I know you

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Speaker 1: were kind of joking, but there are some guidestones. E

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Speaker 1: feels about some of these, like and that it feels

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Speaker 1: more like a philosophy more than like a set of

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Speaker 1: instructions for a you know, sort of practical functioning system.

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Speaker 1: But that's I don't think that. I don't think you're joking, Matt.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I know the precepts would all do, but you,

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Speaker 1: like Matt, you were just literally saying earlier that this

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Speaker 1: is a combination of philosophy and practical practical tactics. Right, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it really is, and it and it does Honestly, I really,

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Speaker 1: I'm not joking. Well, it feels like to me like

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Speaker 1: leaving room for nature, finding a way to work with nature. Basically, um,

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Speaker 1: here is my thing, guys. This sounds amazing. This sounds

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Speaker 1: like also and I'm serious, there's this feels like the

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Speaker 1: laying the groundwork for a cult, you know, like and

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Speaker 1: not in a bad way, not saying permaculture is a cult.

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Speaker 1: I'm saying these are very positive, awesome things. Uh. It

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Speaker 1: just does make me feel like you could use this

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Speaker 1: as your as You're like, um uh support structure to

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Speaker 1: get a bunch of people out living on a piece

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Speaker 1: of land with commune kind of stuff. Yeah, you can't

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Speaker 1: spell permaculture without cult. Just but that's not what. I

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Speaker 1: Don't mean that at all, And I'm not trying to

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Speaker 1: speak badly about the Flash movement. It's just when I'm

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Speaker 1: when I'm reading that out loud and I'm hearing it

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Speaker 1: then in putting it all into my head because you

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Speaker 1: can use that phrase. Perman Culture Designer aims to produce

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Speaker 1: both food. And you know, the BuzzFeed headline is libertarians

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Speaker 1: hate this agricultural system. Uh. You know, for some people

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Speaker 1: who are a little bit sensitive about stuff, the idea

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Speaker 1: of the third ethic may seem um, probably too close

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Speaker 1: to socialism in some ways. I mean, the big difference

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Speaker 1: from perman culture, between perman culture and the precepts from

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Speaker 1: the Georgia Guidestones is obviously not the demand for um,

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Speaker 1: a mass lowering of the population, and hopefully not descended

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Speaker 1: as directly from belief in eugenics. But uh, but also

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Speaker 1: in defense and again this is not This is a

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Speaker 1: point that has nothing to do with with perspectives on

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Speaker 1: current society. What sticks out to me here is the

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Speaker 1: emphasis on systems, right on the systems, and uh, society

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Speaker 1: is a system. A group of people is at heart

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Speaker 1: a system. And in the natural world, way before human

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Speaker 1: beings ever existed, that third precept and that first precept

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Speaker 1: were enforced at times brutally, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 1: Nature has been a lot of things, but it's not

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Speaker 1: always the nicest, the nicest thing, I No. I think

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Speaker 1: this is especially the emphasis on learning and mimicking natural systems,

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Speaker 1: like the more sophisticated so much technology becomes, the closer

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Speaker 1: and closer it cleaves to being very similar to pre

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Speaker 1: existing things that were formed by environments or by evolution.

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Speaker 1: I strongly believe that it doesn't matter. If I believe it,

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Speaker 1: it's true, yeah, exactly. The one thing for me, guys,

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Speaker 1: is this all sounds well and good. It sounds amazing.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like the right thing to do. One of

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Speaker 1: the things Durst said was no one picks up leaves

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Speaker 1: in a forest and the soil is doing great in there.

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Speaker 1: And that's one of the whole points. Like, the way

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Speaker 1: these systems function is to sustain themselves, right, the way

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Speaker 1: a forest functions, the way a meadow functions. It will

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Speaker 1: sustain itself if you don't touch it, and it's going

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Speaker 1: to grow and be great. It just won't do maybe

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Speaker 1: the things that we wanted to do, but you can

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Speaker 1: gently if those things and those systems to work for you,

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Speaker 1: rather than tearing them up and trying to build something new. Basically,

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Speaker 1: I really love what like the philosophy he was teaching me.

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Speaker 1: The way drs did this is he went to a

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Speaker 1: special place. I can't remember DERs what it was, but

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Speaker 1: he just looked it up online found a school basically

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Speaker 1: to go to and learn all about permaculture, and then

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Speaker 1: he started a business and he's you know, he's running

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Speaker 1: a successful business right now doing this stuff. My question is,

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Speaker 1: how do you do this on a mass scale really,

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Speaker 1: because it feels like it's going to be impossible just

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Speaker 1: to fill up the stores with the food that Americans

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Speaker 1: and much of the Western society is used to. I

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Speaker 1: don't know that you can. Maybe you can. It feels

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Speaker 1: unfeasible to me, which you know, maybe it's not. And

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Speaker 1: hopefully somebody out there knows that it's not and knows

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Speaker 1: a way to do it, and we can figure that out,

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Speaker 1: because this does seem a lot more sustainable than the

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Speaker 1: factory farming. It's just I don't know how it would

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Speaker 1: function at scale and time soon. Oh, I would love

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Speaker 1: to talk about this more in depth that I say

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Speaker 1: we do an episode because I've got some crazy stuff

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Speaker 1: about this, So there's you're gonna have to tune in

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Speaker 1: for that. I think this will be a fun one. Sweet,

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Speaker 1: I'm in. Well, that's it for now, Thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for calling enters. We'll be right back with more messages

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Speaker 1: from you. And we're back with one more message from

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Speaker 1: from you. Uh and in this case, you is a Connor.

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Speaker 1: And here's how the message goes. Hello. I am an

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Speaker 1: American and have lived in Europe for thirty years now

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Speaker 1: and teach at a community college here in the Netherlands.

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Speaker 1: I really enjoy both stuff they don't want you to

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Speaker 1: know and stuff you should know. Um. A few months ago,

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Speaker 1: I gave my English as a Second language students the

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Speaker 1: exercise of choosing one of your episodes, listening to it,

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Speaker 1: and giving a short or report on the episode in English.

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Speaker 1: I would love to hear that. Shucks. Yeah, a connor

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Speaker 1: goes on. I all so teach social studies and international studies.

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Speaker 1: So for those courses, every year our students visit the

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Speaker 1: International Court of Justice in the Hague, where we talk

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Speaker 1: about how it works and sometimes get to watch some

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Speaker 1: of the war crimes trials. Most people do not know

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Speaker 1: that the US does not participate in the Court. They

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Speaker 1: do help find and transport criminals, and historically they did

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Speaker 1: help create the court. However, they do not participate in it.

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Speaker 1: It would be great if you did a show on

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Speaker 1: the International Court of Justice, especially given the recent debate

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Speaker 1: on US democracy. Love to hear you, guys, cop the

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Speaker 1: good work kind regards A Connor, Ben, that was a

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00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 1: very telling chuckle. Um, I think, because why would the

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Speaker 1: US not want to support an international court that tries

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Speaker 1: war criminals? Crazier than that? Okay, so a lot of

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Speaker 1: Americans don't know this, but there are, um, there are

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Speaker 1: some people who are lauded as heroes by certain factions

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Speaker 1: of the US population that can't travel to places because

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Speaker 1: they might get arrested. Uh and yeah, your point holds

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Speaker 1: know about the idea of possibly being war criminals. I

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Speaker 1: would like to introduce everyone who hasn't heard about this.

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Speaker 1: Uh well wait, first off, first, I'm excited. I'm jumping around.

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Speaker 1: But first off, A Connor, thank you, Yes done, we're

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Speaker 1: doing that episode. It's weird. We haven't done it so much.

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Speaker 1: It's so rife. It's fascinating because here's how deep it goes.

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Speaker 1: And um, A Connor, I'm sure you know this. But

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Speaker 1: for anybody who's not aware, this stance against participating in

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Speaker 1: I c C is so ingrained in American culture that

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Speaker 1: back in two thousand and two under the Bush administration,

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Speaker 1: they passed the American Service Members Protection Act, and that

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Speaker 1: has a street name. The street name is the Hague

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Speaker 1: Invasion Act, meaning that if you take someone that we

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Speaker 1: care about, because the US doesn't treat everybody equally, obviously,

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Speaker 1: if you take someone that we care about and you

426
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 1: try them in the court, then we are sending the

427
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:21,439
Speaker 1: world's biggest, most dangerous military to the court, and not

428
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:25,920
Speaker 1: to peacefully testify, not to be character witnesses. So there's

429
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,359
Speaker 1: a really really cool piece cool I don't know, it's

430
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 1: just a good like primer on this that came out

431
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:35,199
Speaker 1: in April sixteenth of this year, UM on NPR. It

432
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 1: was filed by Michael Martin on All Things Considered, and

433
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:42,399
Speaker 1: he interviews John Bellinger the third, who is a former

434
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 1: legal advisor for the National Security Council UH specifically about

435
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 1: this kind of fraud relationship between the US and the

436
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:54,920
Speaker 1: International Criminal Court. And the host starts the interview very

437
00:26:55,359 --> 00:27:00,400
Speaker 1: I don't know, straightforwardly asking this gentleman, UM, why why

438
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 1: is it that the you know? So he sort of

439
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 1: gives a little back, right, So, the International Criminal Court

440
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 1: was established relatively recently in n by an international agreement

441
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 1: that's called the Rome Statute, and the US, you know,

442
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,359
Speaker 1: to a Connors point in the email, UM did help

443
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:19,320
Speaker 1: negotiate that accord. In the end, it didn't formally join

444
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:24,119
Speaker 1: uh and he asks Bellinger why not, and he responds,

445
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 1: the real answer to your question is that the US

446
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 1: has been concerned from the very beginning that the prosecutor

447
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 1: for the court would be given too much power unchecked,

448
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 1: and he or she could conduct politically motivated prosecutions of

449
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:42,120
Speaker 1: US soldiers a k a. Bring them up on war

450
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 1: crime charges. Right right, Yeah, Yeah, there's more to the

451
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 1: story to certainly, But but I'm just saying, it's like,

452
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 1: we don't do war crimes in the United States. I

453
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 1: think that's sort of the what I'm saying is, I

454
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 1: am the US. We don't do war crimes. That's what

455
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,680
Speaker 1: other countries do work times. We don't do that. So therefore,

456
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:04,639
Speaker 1: we are not gonna put our rubber stamp on a

457
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:08,480
Speaker 1: situation out of our control that could call our men

458
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 1: and women in uniform before some sort of European tribunal

459
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 1: and and rake them across the coals for just doing

460
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,200
Speaker 1: Uncle Sam's good work. That's the idea. I mean, that's

461
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,400
Speaker 1: why that's why they're standing law in the US. I'll

462
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,879
Speaker 1: dig into this and have the specifics for the episode,

463
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 1: but that's why they're standing law in the US that says,

464
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:35,240
Speaker 1: you know, you can't prosecute certain people or positions for

465
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 1: exercising the actions that are expected in their role unless

466
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 1: they're you know, there are things that are outlined, right,

467
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 1: But there's that's why the US doesn't accuse a sitting

468
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 1: president of war crimes, right when when there's a conflict

469
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 1: in a region somewhere else in the in the world.

470
00:28:55,120 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 1: But this idea, it's important to note, has never been tested.

471
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 1: The US is not invaded the Hague for two decades

472
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 1: and counting. So picture the u N or the International

473
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 1: Criminal Court with one of those little race boards in

474
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 1: the break room that says it's been and then somebody

475
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 1: and Marker wrote, twenty years since the US invaded the Hague.

476
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 1: It's strange. There's some c y there, obviously, and a

477
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 1: lot of US allies didn't like this move. Um, and

478
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 1: the US started instituting the strategy of obtaining immunity from

479
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 1: other state actors in order to like in a quid

480
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 1: pro quo. So it's it's a fascinating process, but it's

481
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 1: not something every country can do. And the U S

482
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 1: would say, of course, as the lawyer pointed out, they're

483
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 1: not signatories to the I s C. Well, you know

484
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 1: who else is not. There's another country that's in the

485
00:29:55,400 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 1: news right now that's doing some things m hm. And

486
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:04,880
Speaker 1: that's honestly where this, uh, this article kind of stemmed

487
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 1: from or this uh, this NPR piece was, you know,

488
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,240
Speaker 1: the US or the President of the United States, Joe

489
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:13,960
Speaker 1: Biden went so far as to call Vladimir Putin a

490
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 1: war criminal. Um And where do war criminals get prosecuted.

491
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 1: It's it's at the Hague at least in terms of

492
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 1: international affairs or the international you know community. Uh. And

493
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 1: yet we would not hold our own um officials or

494
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 1: our soldiers to that same standard. So at that point,

495
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, I know it's complicated, and I

496
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 1: know it's definitely we're gonna keep this short because we

497
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 1: don't want to spoil anything that's gonna go into the

498
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 1: episode and definitely requires a deeper dive. But it feels

499
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 1: very hollow for Biden to say that as sort of

500
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 1: a buzzy thing to say, I'm taking a stand, and

501
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:55,719
Speaker 1: yet we don't actually recognize the jurisdiction of this you know,

502
00:30:56,280 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 1: largely internationally legally recognized body. So it's kind of like

503
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 1: not really putting your money where your mouth is when

504
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 1: you say a thing like that. Yeah. Also, let me

505
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 1: just read the list of countries who are not part

506
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 1: of the International Criminal Courts. This isn't fullst but Russia

507
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 1: is not. Neither is the US. We've established that, neither

508
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 1: is China, nor India, nor Rock, Libya, Yemen, Cutter Israel, Ukraine,

509
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 1: Like it's not everybody is what we're saying. And then

510
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 1: I do want to say, I know, we do want

511
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 1: to keep this short. I want to say there could

512
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 1: be rational, slash legitimate concerns from the perspective of those countries.

513
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 1: The i c C gets a lot of criticism. It's

514
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 1: been accused of um being a tool of Western imperialists

515
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 1: or neo colonial powers, punishing like the leaders of smaller,

516
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 1: less powerful states in Africa in particular, while ignoring crimes

517
00:31:55,560 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 1: committed by other more powerful countries. It's even the African

518
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 1: Union wants to withdraw from made moves to withdraw from

519
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 1: the court. It's hard to find a court that every

520
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 1: country agrees with, and there are a lot of accusations

521
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 1: about conspiracy. So a connor, as the Templar Night said

522
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 1: to Indy, you have chosen wisely, this is perfect for

523
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 1: an episode, and there's an Indiana Jones coming out number five.

524
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 1: I don't know if my face off is it really yeah? Yeah,

525
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 1: but the last one was so middling. This win. I

526
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 1: don't know about lou boof, but if he can still

527
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 1: stand up right by that, I mean, okay, no, no,

528
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 1: no shame there. Harrison's a stud I don't believe there

529
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 1: will be any like c g I monkey swinging. That

530
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 1: was I couldn't heard. It took all the magic out

531
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 1: of the previous films. The Indiana Jones franchise also, as

532
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 1: far as I know, like Russia, India, China and the

533
00:32:56,360 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 1: US and those other countries, does not acknowledge the jurisdiction

534
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,480
Speaker 1: of the International Criminal Court. So it's going to be

535
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 1: up to the good folks at Rotten Tomatoes to decide

536
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 1: whether or not Indiana Jones five as a crime. Well,

537
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 1: good luck to you, Indiana Jones. I mean you could

538
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 1: argue Indiana Jones himself might have been guilty of some

539
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 1: war crimes. I mean, shot that guy dead. He was

540
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 1: just swinging a sword around, and come on, that's not right.

541
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 1: He also airplane guy? Yeah? Oh yeah. Also wait, but

542
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 1: there was a dude who like, yeah, there's a dude

543
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 1: who's like swinging a scimitar around, yeah, and make a

544
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 1: big show of it. And then Indy just shoots him dead,

545
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 1: you know, And that was improvised. He also shot that alien.

546
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 1: He shot that alien man in in Star Wars. He

547
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 1: definitely shot first, and they've that's revisioned his history right there.

548
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 1: Han shot first, ruined that fridge. Well, he also stole

549
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 1: a ton of priceless artifacts. Look, I say, this is

550
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 1: a fan of many films in the Indiana Jones franchise,

551
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 1: but the guy's a criminal. These are crust you guys.

552
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 1: Know what else is coming out? I think it's this weekend.

553
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 1: It's the new Thor movie. Yeah, it's good tonight as

554
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 1: we record Love and Funder. That looks fun. It's very

555
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 1: Masters of the Universe looking. I like that vibe that

556
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,279
Speaker 1: I'm getting from the trailer. Can't wait us. I don't

557
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:27,360
Speaker 1: get excited about many movies we go from international courts.

558
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:30,759
Speaker 1: I love that about the show Crime and Jurisdiction. Yeah,

559
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 1: this is a great thing. We we got there because

560
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 1: I just had to reference the templar night from uh,

561
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,279
Speaker 1: the Last Crusade. So yeah, that's how we got there.

562
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 1: But but yeah, this is something more people should know about.

563
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 1: And the decision for the US to participate or not

564
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,799
Speaker 1: participate in the i SEC is such a who does

565
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 1: it ride with? Who does that rest with? Ben? Well,

566
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 1: it's such a high level decision. I think it's executive branch.

567
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 1: But it's such a high level decision. May be wrong

568
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 1: that the average voter doesn't get to do anything about

569
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 1: it. It It doesn't matter what you think you can you

570
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,399
Speaker 1: I guess all I will say to end with if

571
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 1: that's okay? Is uh? This guy Ballinger, you know, who

572
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 1: seems to know what he's talking about. Um, he says

573
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,760
Speaker 1: the US should be a member. But sadly that ship

574
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:26,080
Speaker 1: sailed back in when the negotiators over US objections during

575
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 1: the Clinton administration negotiated a treaty that did not address

576
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:33,320
Speaker 1: US concerns. So, yes, it's painful for me as an American,

577
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 1: as a lawyer, as the former legal advisor for the

578
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,839
Speaker 1: State Department, representing a country that has long been at

579
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 1: the forefront of international criminal justice. It is unfortunately the

580
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 1: United States is not a party to the International Criminal Court.

581
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:47,960
Speaker 1: We should be, but for the time being, I think

582
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:50,879
Speaker 1: US policy will have to continue to be through both

583
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 1: Republican and democratic administrations, is to support the Court when

584
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:57,359
Speaker 1: it is doing what it was set up to do,

585
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:00,520
Speaker 1: which in this case is the investigations of the Russian

586
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:04,320
Speaker 1: War crimes and crimes against humanity in Ukraine, which is

587
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,400
Speaker 1: exactly what the Court was set up to do. So

588
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:10,719
Speaker 1: boy oh boy, Um, this is a deep dive of

589
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 1: an episode that we're gonna have coming up in the

590
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,280
Speaker 1: in the near future. And and thank you a Connor

591
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,240
Speaker 1: for this. Um, you know, just kind of light bulb

592
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:20,839
Speaker 1: moment I think for all of us. Um, we're gonna

593
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:22,439
Speaker 1: take a quick break and then we're gonna come back

594
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 1: with one more piece of listener mail from you. And

595
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:36,759
Speaker 1: we've returned. This one comes to us via Instagram. A

596
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 1: lot of people reach out to me on Instagram or Twitter,

597
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:43,319
Speaker 1: various missives, Crossroads at midnight, all the hits, all the

598
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 1: good ones, and uh, this person requested to be anonymous

599
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 1: and they hipped me to something that I shared with

600
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:56,319
Speaker 1: you all off air. Uh. It was someone strange for

601
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:58,920
Speaker 1: me because it's something I had never heard of a

602
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 1: lot of times would get a good idea. We're thinking,

603
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:03,800
Speaker 1: why haven't we done it? Episode on that like the

604
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 1: I C C. I think it's crazy that never came

605
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 1: up a conversation. Um, maybe it did back in the

606
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:13,799
Speaker 1: YouTube days. But this question, I'll read the pertinent bit

607
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 1: sad to remove some stuff to help preserve this person's identity.

608
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 1: But if you are listening, thank you. This is a

609
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:26,280
Speaker 1: very strange one. And just like academic journals the piece

610
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:28,360
Speaker 1: we did earlier, which by the way, we got we

611
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:32,400
Speaker 1: got some Uh, we're gonna get some feedback from the

612
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:35,880
Speaker 1: world of academia on that one. But like academic journals,

613
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:37,920
Speaker 1: this idea is a little bit niche. So here it

614
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 1: is anonymous from Instagram reaches out at them bullen to say.

615
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 1: A TikTok trend called the hashtag Read and Return challenge

616
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:51,919
Speaker 1: instructs readers to read books on Amazon quickly then return them.

617
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 1: Amazon actually does so, then deducts the money from those authors.

618
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 1: This has led to an increasing number of authors and

619
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 1: observers wondering whether Amazon is complicit in this trend, pushing

620
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:12,240
Speaker 1: authors to join their Kindle Unlimited program. Now earlier and

621
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 1: this anonymous person did something I love, which is uh,

622
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 1: sending some sources, sending some articles that they had been

623
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:25,239
Speaker 1: reading and relaying some of their own personal experience. At

624
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:27,440
Speaker 1: the end of this week's segment, I'm going to ask

625
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:30,840
Speaker 1: if you have encountered something like this. Uh, it reminds

626
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 1: me of earlier this week, we're talking about how to

627
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 1: manufacture a viral marketing trend. What if you could pull

628
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:43,320
Speaker 1: those levers not just to try to make a middling

629
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:47,279
Speaker 1: film a success, but you could pull those levers to

630
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 1: incentivize behavior in people. Here's this group. So Amazon has

631
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:59,360
Speaker 1: this thing called Kindle Unlimited. Full disclosure, I've used Kindle

632
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:03,000
Speaker 1: Unlimited for a number of years, often to get books

633
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 1: related to various branches of research, things that are so

634
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:11,319
Speaker 1: subject specific I'm probably not going to keep them, you know,

635
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 1: as a physical copy. But the story really started with

636
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 1: someone named Lisa Kessler, who is an award winning, very

637
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:26,720
Speaker 1: prolific author, has written forty four novels forty four separate novels,

638
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:30,359
Speaker 1: and then earlier in June this year, Uh blew up

639
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:33,240
Speaker 1: with a tweet where she said, Hey, just reminder, Amazon

640
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:36,400
Speaker 1: is not a library. When you read and return a book,

641
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:40,440
Speaker 1: it cost the author. It's June one says this again,

642
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 1: successful award winning, prolific author, and I owe Amazon at

643
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:48,320
Speaker 1: the moment because people are reading through a series of

644
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:51,360
Speaker 1: books she wrote and returning the books when they finish.

645
00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 1: So Kessler was in an interview with BuzzFeed and she

646
00:39:55,719 --> 00:40:00,719
Speaker 1: said this problem started around May of this year and

647
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 1: last month for her, there was this swell of returns

648
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 1: of entire series of books, and they didn't seem to

649
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 1: be related to people not liking the actual book or

650
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 1: accidentally buying something, which you know can happen when you're

651
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:19,080
Speaker 1: shopping online. She says, they ran through them and turned

652
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:22,360
Speaker 1: turned them back in and got their money back. You know,

653
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 1: this is a hustle people have done at retail stores

654
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 1: in the past, right, Like, uh, nobody has to admit

655
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 1: it if you've done it. But I'm sure there are

656
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 1: many of us listening to the audience today who maybe

657
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 1: bought something that they were going to use over the

658
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 1: weekend and then returned it because you just needed it

659
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 1: for the weekend. And also the like the permissiveness or

660
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:47,280
Speaker 1: laxness of return policies. It comes off like a feature

661
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 1: where it's like, oh, I'm not taking any risk by

662
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:51,759
Speaker 1: buying this thing because I can just return at no

663
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:54,439
Speaker 1: questions asked. But there are so many ways to game

664
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:56,279
Speaker 1: that like the like you know, a scam you'll see

665
00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,399
Speaker 1: in movies. Sometimes it's like people will steal something from

666
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 1: one tar get and return it to the other one

667
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:05,320
Speaker 1: because you don't actually have to have the receipt. Yeah, exactly.

668
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 1: And in some cases, especially for a lot of big retailers,

669
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:14,120
Speaker 1: the headache of the paperwork and returning and processing something

670
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:17,759
Speaker 1: is or like denying or return it just doesn't make

671
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 1: sense for their use of time. That's why there are

672
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:23,799
Speaker 1: things that that's why there are so many algorithms in place, right,

673
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 1: Like if you order something that's not incredibly expensive from

674
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 1: a company like Amazon, you know, you just get your

675
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:34,719
Speaker 1: whatever threshold to get free shipping, and then you say

676
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 1: the box never arrived. If you're not doing that really often,

677
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:42,760
Speaker 1: they'll probably just send you another box of the same stuff,

678
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:46,400
Speaker 1: you know. I think the term is called spoilage. Like

679
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:49,760
Speaker 1: in business in general, like there's a shrink you know, yeah,

680
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:52,719
Speaker 1: maybe it's one of the two, um, but there is

681
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 1: a certain allowable level of that. Like I think we've

682
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 1: even talked about like in you know, this isn't the same,

683
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:02,840
Speaker 1: but in like drug cartels, they have an allowable amount

684
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 1: of cash that just gets eaten by rats. You know,

685
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:11,839
Speaker 1: it's like, Okay, it's like it's just like a little spoilers. Look,

686
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:14,239
Speaker 1: we're past it now, but I have to say it.

687
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 1: Nobody talks about shrinkage Seinfeld anyone. So so this is

688
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:28,160
Speaker 1: not a Seinfeld problem though, because a lot of these

689
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:32,319
Speaker 1: authors are independent. You know, they don't have the Seinfeld

690
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 1: comedians and cars getting coffee money. Uh. Instead, what they're

691
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:41,279
Speaker 1: doing is depending upon these sales, and when these things

692
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 1: are purchased as e books, they ideally you would get

693
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 1: paid off that you get like royalties of some sort,

694
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:51,880
Speaker 1: but when that e book is returned, the royalties from

695
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 1: that sale get deducted from the author's Amazon account directly.

696
00:42:56,080 --> 00:43:00,600
Speaker 1: And per Kessler, there's also a digital delivery fee that

697
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:04,040
Speaker 1: Amazon charges the author. Sounds kind of bs to me.

698
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:06,879
Speaker 1: That's like the ticket master fees, but they don't mean

699
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:13,879
Speaker 1: the maintenanceive servers are so yeah, it's something so our

700
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:17,759
Speaker 1: cynicism is showing here. Uh. But then you you you

701
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 1: have to imagine they probably also are getting Spotify money

702
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 1: compared to what they would get for like a purchased

703
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 1: physical copy of their book. Right, and here's where the

704
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:35,800
Speaker 1: conspiracy comes into play. The going like. The running theory

705
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:42,960
Speaker 1: is that Amazon is aware of what's being called a hack. Uh,

706
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:46,240
Speaker 1: Like you can buy any book and you get seven

707
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:48,840
Speaker 1: days you have to return. You can return it in

708
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:52,239
Speaker 1: seven days, no questions asked, and you could even hear

709
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:54,360
Speaker 1: people you only hear play any people arguing that e

710
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:57,960
Speaker 1: books are a scam. But that's a story for another day. Uh.

711
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:01,920
Speaker 1: The conspiracy, if you'll let me Pepe Lopez just a

712
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:06,440
Speaker 1: little big guys. Uh, the conspiracy is that Amazon is

713
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 1: aware of this trend and complicit in it. Uh, and

714
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:16,000
Speaker 1: they're allowing it to happen because they want to incentivize

715
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:22,759
Speaker 1: or push these independent authors toward the Kindle Unlimited program.

716
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:28,319
Speaker 1: And the Kindle Unlimited program doesn't have the same return policy.

717
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 1: So it's like, um, kinda unlimited his Amazon's ebook subscription

718
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:39,320
Speaker 1: plan and that pays authors by the pages read instead

719
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 1: of just buying you know, the entire work or something.

720
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:47,279
Speaker 1: So if you go to Kindle Unlimited, you read ten

721
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:52,000
Speaker 1: pages and you decide, well, Loumargadoff, He's guide to perman

722
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:54,960
Speaker 1: Culture is not for me. He's just coming from a

723
00:44:54,960 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 1: different place. Then you then, uh, whomever the rights of

724
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 1: that book would would get the ten pages. So you

725
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 1: know what I would buy? What would you buy? Man? Little?

726
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:12,319
Speaker 1: A little book from Lisa Kessler titled Pirates Passion Yes, yeah,

727
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:19,279
Speaker 1: oh yeah it's it's real passionate. You can tell by

728
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:24,560
Speaker 1: the cover, right, Oh yeah yeah. So that's the conspiracy

729
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 1: theory that's going around, that's the idea, that's the speculation. Um.

730
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 1: Looking into it, there are some questions that I would

731
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 1: have to ask. We have to interrogate that theory because

732
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:40,359
Speaker 1: one Amazon is Amazon not powerful enough that they could

733
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 1: just say all books have to go to Kindle unlimited.

734
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:49,279
Speaker 1: Maybe maybe they aren't. Maybe they can't get the literary

735
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:53,480
Speaker 1: whales like the Malcolm Gladwell's, the Stephen King's, the J. K.

736
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:58,359
Speaker 1: Rolling Rowlings or what have you. Um, But then it

737
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:02,200
Speaker 1: feels a little circuitous, right Like there are two ways

738
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:04,439
Speaker 1: to look at it. So there are a couple of ways.

739
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:09,200
Speaker 1: So Amazon could the far end, deep the deep end

740
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:12,399
Speaker 1: of the conspiracy theory pool is that Amazon did this

741
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:16,359
Speaker 1: somehow right. They did it instead of just saying, hey,

742
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 1: you have to go to this uh this model that

743
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:21,920
Speaker 1: we have, they did it on purpose, even though it

744
00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:25,239
Speaker 1: feels kind of round about. The other more moderated or

745
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:30,640
Speaker 1: mitigated idea is that maybe Amazon saw it happening and thought, well,

746
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:34,359
Speaker 1: this works out for us. We're we're opportunists. Eventually, these

747
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:37,760
Speaker 1: people who are not powerful enough to change our return

748
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:41,400
Speaker 1: policies are going to have to do what ultimately makes

749
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:44,280
Speaker 1: them some money, even if it makes them less money

750
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:49,760
Speaker 1: than it than the previous model did both of those. Yeah,

751
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:51,840
Speaker 1: we see them doing shady stuff like this with like

752
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:54,880
Speaker 1: designers to for example, where like they have this Amazon

753
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:58,000
Speaker 1: marketplace where you can like upload a design and then

754
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:00,800
Speaker 1: through Amazon they'll print on demand and like a shirt

755
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:02,960
Speaker 1: or a coffee mug or whatever sort of like you

756
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:05,400
Speaker 1: know sites like t public. But it's all within the

757
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:08,120
Speaker 1: Amazon ecosystem. And it turns out that a lot of

758
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:11,880
Speaker 1: like freelance designers are having their like design stolen and

759
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:15,440
Speaker 1: then put into the Amazon you know whatever, the automated

760
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:18,839
Speaker 1: system and then printed and they get no money. So

761
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:21,759
Speaker 1: we know that Amazon doesn't particularly have scruples about this

762
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:23,719
Speaker 1: kind of thing in terms of because I mean think

763
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:27,360
Speaker 1: about it, like, if you're not John Grisham or whatever,

764
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:30,480
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, that's the only like big author actor Stephen King,

765
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 1: you know you're an independent seller. You depend on those

766
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:36,960
Speaker 1: e book sales not only for a little cash, but

767
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:38,759
Speaker 1: to get your name out there, because it's like the

768
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:43,239
Speaker 1: distribution platform of choice. Let's not forget Amazon started off

769
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:45,719
Speaker 1: selling only books, you know, and they've still kind of

770
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:49,239
Speaker 1: kept an iron fisted grasp over that market. So they

771
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:53,000
Speaker 1: really have like small creators over a barrel. And what

772
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:55,319
Speaker 1: are you gonna do? Say, Well, I'm not gonna put

773
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:58,720
Speaker 1: my stuff on Amazon anymore, Okay, cool, go with God,

774
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 1: they say, right right. It's kind of like the old

775
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:05,759
Speaker 1: adage from back in the days of the West when

776
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:09,279
Speaker 1: when the US was expanding westward. You probably heard the

777
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:12,920
Speaker 1: story a hundred times. But the idea is, you go

778
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:17,640
Speaker 1: to a small town, there's just one saloon, there's a

779
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 1: guy playing poker, and the dealer is clearly cheating, and

780
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:24,640
Speaker 1: one guy points out to the poker player. He's like, hey,

781
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:28,479
Speaker 1: this game is rigged, and the poker player shrugs and says,

782
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:32,759
Speaker 1: I know, that's the only game in town. Like that's

783
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:36,120
Speaker 1: that's kind of how these monopolies can work, and that's

784
00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 1: a very real danger. But it also launched a pretty

785
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 1: nuanced discussion that you can read in You can read

786
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 1: ex service in The Daily Dot and Chicago Tribune and

787
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 1: pick this up and so on about the nature of ownership,

788
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:57,480
Speaker 1: what differentiates a bookstore from a library. You know, whether

789
00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:00,320
Speaker 1: you should be able to return a book just because

790
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:03,320
Speaker 1: you say you didn't dig it. And this all leads

791
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:07,880
Speaker 1: us to what's happening now as we record now, there

792
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:12,120
Speaker 1: is a petition going around on change dot org pushing

793
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:17,760
Speaker 1: for Amazon to change its return policies for completed e books.

794
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 1: You can find this very easily and their ideas in

795
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:25,000
Speaker 1: the petition, they explicitly say, we don't have a problem.

796
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:27,799
Speaker 1: If somebody reads ten of a book and they don't

797
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:30,400
Speaker 1: like it, you can turn it back in return it

798
00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:33,000
Speaker 1: because you didn't like it. It's like taking a bite

799
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:35,880
Speaker 1: of something at a restaurant and sending it back. But

800
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 1: then if you read the whole thing and return it,

801
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:41,280
Speaker 1: it's like you're in a restaurant. You ate the fries,

802
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:44,279
Speaker 1: you ate the hamburger, you know, you're polishing off the

803
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:47,279
Speaker 1: cookie or whatever, and then you tell the server you

804
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 1: were not satisfied, the meal wasn't up to your standards,

805
00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:53,440
Speaker 1: and you want your money back, you know what I mean.

806
00:49:54,160 --> 00:49:56,760
Speaker 1: I'm sure a lot of our our fellow conspiracy realists

807
00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:59,800
Speaker 1: in the service industry are like nodding with their brows

808
00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:03,399
Speaker 1: for road right. Now, you've seen those people, I've seen it.

809
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:07,320
Speaker 1: You got worst. It was probably one of the worst things.

810
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:09,239
Speaker 1: It's just one of the worst things. I've been on

811
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:11,520
Speaker 1: both sides. I've been at a table when somebody did it,

812
00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:15,239
Speaker 1: and I've been you know, walking out as the server

813
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:17,520
Speaker 1: to pick up I'll play in. They're like, yeah, that

814
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:20,839
Speaker 1: was awful. Um, I'm gonna I'm not paying for that.

815
00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:26,359
Speaker 1: You just realized it was awful classy anyway. But if you, um,

816
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:30,960
Speaker 1: if you agree with the following two ideas that one

817
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:35,000
Speaker 1: changed dot org petitions work and that too, Amazon should

818
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:38,759
Speaker 1: change its policies, then I encourage you to find this

819
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:42,760
Speaker 1: petition uh and give it your John Hancock and see

820
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:47,640
Speaker 1: if that will trigger a response from Amazon. UH. And

821
00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:50,440
Speaker 1: with that, we're gonna We're gonna leave it there. Thanks

822
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:54,760
Speaker 1: to a Connor, Thanks to anonymous on Instagram. Thanks of course,

823
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:57,640
Speaker 1: two dur's. Thanks to everyone who tunes into the show

824
00:50:57,719 --> 00:51:01,600
Speaker 1: every every day, every week, every episode, every segment, uh,

825
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:04,160
Speaker 1: and thinks even more so, to those of us who

826
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:08,239
Speaker 1: take the time to contact us. We love it. We

827
00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:10,640
Speaker 1: want to hear your thoughts. I'd like to end with

828
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:15,200
Speaker 1: a very special thank you to the UM the amazing

829
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:19,320
Speaker 1: work of independent authors in the US and abroad across

830
00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:22,480
Speaker 1: the planet. Because it's a daunting task, but I think

831
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:25,799
Speaker 1: it's an important pursuit. I think it's an important profession.

832
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 1: We can't wait to hear what you think, folks about

833
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:32,240
Speaker 1: permit culture, about the I c C, About the big

834
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:36,480
Speaker 1: A Amazon nowadays. Uh so let us know what's on

835
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:38,760
Speaker 1: your mind. We try to be easy to find online.

836
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:41,919
Speaker 1: Oh yes, you can find us on Twitter, Facebook, and

837
00:51:42,239 --> 00:51:47,080
Speaker 1: YouTube at Conspiracy Stuff on Instagram where at Conspiracy Stuff Show.

838
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:52,560
Speaker 1: But there's more, that's right. We are also authors, at

839
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:57,560
Speaker 1: least officially, especially Ben Like really, you can buy our book.

840
00:51:57,840 --> 00:51:59,600
Speaker 1: It's coming out right now. You can preorder it. It's

841
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:02,759
Speaker 1: called stuff. They don't want you to know. It's got

842
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:05,160
Speaker 1: our names on it. You'll see it. There's a picture

843
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:07,560
Speaker 1: of I believe it's the capital guys, is that correct

844
00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:12,440
Speaker 1: capital in a UFO. You'll you'll recognize as soon as

845
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:16,000
Speaker 1: you see. It's got this cool orange warm tone to it. Uh,

846
00:52:16,200 --> 00:52:18,960
Speaker 1: check it out. Please don't return it on Kindle like

847
00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:21,120
Speaker 1: if if you can help it, we unless you just

848
00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:24,160
Speaker 1: really don't like it. We get it sure, but still

849
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:26,799
Speaker 1: don't don't return it. That would be cool, all right.

850
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:30,000
Speaker 1: We also have a voicemail system. If you want to call,

851
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:33,879
Speaker 1: you can. Our number is one eight three three st

852
00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:37,040
Speaker 1: d w y t K. You'll call, You'll get a

853
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:39,439
Speaker 1: message letting you know you're in the right place. You'll

854
00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:42,880
Speaker 1: have three minutes. Those three minutes aren't ours, they're yours.

855
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:46,440
Speaker 1: Go nuts, get weird with it. Highly encourage you to

856
00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:49,560
Speaker 1: do so. Give yourself a cool nickname. Tell us what's

857
00:52:49,600 --> 00:52:52,759
Speaker 1: on your mind. Tell us uh. Second, most importantly, if

858
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:55,480
Speaker 1: you are comfortable having your name and or message on

859
00:52:55,640 --> 00:52:59,840
Speaker 1: the air. Most importantly, do not censor yourself. If you

860
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:02,560
Speaker 1: having sillary links, who would like to send us? If

861
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:04,440
Speaker 1: you want to walk us to the front of the

862
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:07,560
Speaker 1: rabbit hole, we'll do the rest. All we have to

863
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:10,040
Speaker 1: do is drop us a good old fashioned email where

864
00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:32,120
Speaker 1: we are conspiracy at i heart radio dot com. Stuff

865
00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:34,000
Speaker 1: they don't want you to know is a production of

866
00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:37,040
Speaker 1: I heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio,

867
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:40,000
Speaker 1: visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

868
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:41,400
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.