1 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:11,039 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph Channel 2 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:22,280 Speaker 1: one two. Three little brothers, Tanner, Alexander, Andrew, just five 3 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: seven and nine years old, vanished from their home. What happened? 4 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:36,880 Speaker 1: Is there a new and stunning explanation? We want these 5 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:41,880 Speaker 1: boys home alive? Is that even possible? Now? I'm Nancy Grace, 6 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 1: this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. We, 7 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 1: of course are referring to the missing little skeleton brothers, beautiful, 8 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:56,319 Speaker 1: beautiful little boys every time I see them. The one 9 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: with the little glasses is pictured in the middle, the 10 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 1: tender ages five, seven and nine. How did they just 11 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 1: disappear from their own home? As at this hour, anthropologists 12 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 1: are studying bone fragments to determine if they belong to 13 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: the three boys. Praise God in heaven as I go 14 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:24,680 Speaker 1: to air right now, I've learned those bone fragments are 15 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:29,040 Speaker 1: not the Skelton brothers just five, seven and nine years old. 16 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 1: So where are they? With me? Sandra Alie, w d 17 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:40,199 Speaker 1: i V Detroit investigative reporter, along with Jeremy Allen also 18 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 1: joining us from w d i V Detroit, Karen stark Renow, 19 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: New York psychologist and the director of the Cold Case 20 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 1: Research Institute, Cheryl McCullum. First to Sandra, Sandra, thank you 21 00:01:55,120 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: so much for being with us. I have been tormented 22 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 1: by the disappearance of these little boys, about the age 23 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:08,240 Speaker 1: of my twin boy and girl. It's driving me crazy. 24 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 1: It's like I'm gonna jump out of my skin. But 25 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 1: I don't know what to do. Sandra, what do you know? 26 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 1: How did it all start? Well, you know what, Nancy. 27 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 1: First of all, thank you so much for having us. 28 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 1: And I think it's so important to not forget about 29 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 1: these boys like you just mentioned. It just it breaks 30 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 1: your heart when you look at their pictures and know 31 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:36,360 Speaker 1: that investigators, FBI, agents, UH, state police, everyone has been 32 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 1: searching for these little boys for so long and no 33 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 1: one has any answers, no one is any closer to 34 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 1: any answers. And I gotta today something Sandra with me. 35 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 1: Sandra Ali and Jeremy Allen from w d I V. 36 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 1: When I just got the news that bones were discovered 37 00:02:56,040 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 1: in a Missoula backyard, I my stum almost threw up, 38 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 1: thinking is this them? Jeremy Allen, when did we first 39 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 1: learned that three little boys were missing? And under what circumstances. 40 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:14,399 Speaker 1: So yeah, So back in Black Friday two thousand, John 41 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: Skelton boys father he had the boys um for the 42 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 1: holiday and he was to return them the following day. 43 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:24,240 Speaker 1: I'm sorry that he was to return them on Friday 44 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 1: at three pm. And of course that didn't happen. So um, 45 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 1: the media panic hit the town, a small town of 46 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 1: Marentci on the boys mind. Wait a minute, Wait a minute, 47 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 1: right there, Hold on, hold on, Why Sandra would the 48 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 1: fact that the dad was late returning the boys, I 49 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 1: assumed to the mom. Why would that cause a panic 50 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 1: just because he was late? Parents were always light Well, 51 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 1: they they had actually been having an ongoing custody issue 52 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 1: Nancy that had really started to escalate in the fall 53 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: end of summer, early fall. Their father, John Skelton, had 54 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 1: paid getting them out of school before that taking them 55 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 1: on a trip to Florida without the mother's permission, So 56 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 1: this isn't had been ongoing. So immediately on that Black Friday, 57 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 1: when their mother, Tanya called and said she wanted to 58 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 1: pick the boys up a little bit earlier than they 59 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 1: had originally planned, John Skelton told her they weren't home 60 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:26,839 Speaker 1: and and he's the one that's supposed to have them. 61 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:30,720 Speaker 1: I mean that strikes fear. And I gotta tell you something, 62 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:34,039 Speaker 1: Sandra and Jeremy Kien Cheryl, you know this. I have 63 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 1: to travel and for instance, I was just in Vegas 64 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 1: on a bill bond issue and I was out of 65 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 1: my skin. I call home when I can't get anybody 66 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 1: on the phone. I go berserk. I think the worst. 67 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 1: And and you call and the husband says, well, I 68 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:54,359 Speaker 1: don't have them. I would go through the roof. I 69 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: would go berserk. You what do you mean you don't 70 00:04:56,400 --> 00:05:00,839 Speaker 1: have them? You you have my children. So, Jeremy Allen, 71 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 1: now I get it when you say. A panic ensued. 72 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 1: So the mom calls the dad he's got the boys, 73 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 1: is time for them to come back home? And he says, 74 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:11,279 Speaker 1: I don't know where they are. I don't know where 75 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 1: that So what happened then, Jeremy, Yeah, I mean he 76 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:15,840 Speaker 1: didn't exactly say it in where they are? I mean, 77 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 1: there's there are so many parts to this story, right, 78 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 1: because he actually was in Toledo, Ohio, in a in 79 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:24,159 Speaker 1: a hospital, um because he tried to kill himself. And 80 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 1: he told the mom, boy my stars, you find out 81 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:33,919 Speaker 1: your husband is in or your ex is in a 82 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 1: hospital after a suicide attempt. Well, where are the boys, 83 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 1: ages five, seven, and nine? I mean, Cheryl McCullum, director 84 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:52,480 Speaker 1: of the Cold Case Institute, right there. I would be bizarre. 85 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: The husband's in the hospital and he doesn't know where 86 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: the children are. I would lose my mind. And I 87 00:05:57,600 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 1: agree with what everybody has said so far. This is 88 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:04,040 Speaker 1: when everybody panic. So this man has attempted to take 89 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:08,159 Speaker 1: his own life failed, but it's telling you I don't 90 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 1: have the children, and what about the mother? Tanya Zubers. 91 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: Take a listen to what the mom says. I don't 92 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:18,160 Speaker 1: know what's going on. I don't know where my kids are. 93 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 1: I'm a mess. I don't know are my sons laying 94 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 1: in this house? Did he flip out and do something? 95 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:27,160 Speaker 1: I don't know what's going on. I don't know where 96 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:29,719 Speaker 1: my kids are. I know that their dad is now 97 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 1: telling the hospital he tried to kill himself. Where are 98 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 1: my sons? What have you done to them? Hard to 99 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:44,239 Speaker 1: imagine them hurting for me. He's the one that holds 100 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:47,719 Speaker 1: the key, He's the ones that can make this all 101 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:55,479 Speaker 1: see be solved. Are not seeing your kids anymore? Jus 102 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 1: My relevance is um. I don't know if i'llow or 103 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 1: know in this was like time t W D I 104 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: V Sandra Ali when she say or says, are they crying? 105 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 1: Are they scared? Are they crying for me? I mean, 106 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 1: I just what have you learned in your investigation? What happened? 107 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 1: Than Sandra the mom calls the dad's in the hospital 108 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 1: and doesn't know where the boys are. What happened next, Sandra, Well, well, 109 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 1: Tanya immediately called her family members. She said, initially she wondered, 110 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 1: what did you do to my boys? That was her 111 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 1: first question. That was the first thing that came to 112 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 1: her mind. And are they okay? Did you hurt them? 113 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 1: And she immediately in a panic, talked to her family 114 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: members and then they got the Maurency police involved. Well, 115 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:56,119 Speaker 1: this is what he, the husband, says happens. He said 116 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:58,559 Speaker 1: that it was a Wednesday, and he made the boys 117 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 1: their favorite meal, fried shake, can and a cake to 118 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 1: celebrate Andrew's birthday. They all had dinner together and watched 119 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 1: a karate movie. And then, in one of his versions 120 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 1: Jeremy Allen, he says, a blue zan comes up and 121 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 1: takes the children. Hold on, let's listen to what the 122 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 1: dad says, do you know the location? Are whereabouts of 123 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 1: your children? Were they accompanied by anybody? Who? Were they 124 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 1: accompanied by? Pardon me, a person intergrating? Did you know 125 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 1: the person? I knew the organization, but I didn't know 126 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 1: the person. Know what an organization? The organization? To Sandra 127 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:52,440 Speaker 1: l a w d i V Detroit investigative reporter, a van. 128 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 1: Investigators say that they wonder was it Skelton behind the 129 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 1: wheel of a minivan the day his three sons go missing? Uh, 130 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: I'm trying to I'm having a hard time taking in 131 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:11,560 Speaker 1: his story. Did he make a stop in Holiday City 132 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: a few miles south of the Michigan Ohio border. Was 133 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 1: he the one behind the family's minivan? What Sandra helped 134 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:23,319 Speaker 1: me understand the way the facts unfold at this point. 135 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 1: You know what, Nancy, there were so many versions of 136 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 1: his initial story, and and when when we talked to investigators, 137 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: they actually said that that was one of the things 138 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 1: that tipped them off that John Skelton stories, they said 139 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:43,680 Speaker 1: never added up. He had so many different versions. Initially 140 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:46,680 Speaker 1: he did mention a blue van, and when I talked 141 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 1: to him in prison just a few weeks ago, his 142 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 1: story changed. He said it was a light colored van, 143 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:55,600 Speaker 1: Santa Ali W D I V joining me along with 144 00:09:55,679 --> 00:10:01,599 Speaker 1: Jeremy Allen, also W D I V Detroit reporter Alan producer. 145 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 1: Sandra You actually went behind bars and spoke to the dad. 146 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 1: I did, Nancy. I went into the prison and I 147 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 1: and I and I talked to John. We reached out 148 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 1: to him. We reached out to John while we were 149 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:19,559 Speaker 1: working on a series of these stories over the left, 150 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 1: many many months, and he wrote me. He sent me 151 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 1: letters from prison, and he put me on the visitor's list. 152 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:32,079 Speaker 1: And I went in and and we did the first 153 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 1: interview in fact, aside from his mother, who's visited him 154 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 1: twice while he was in segregation, this was his first 155 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 1: in person visit with anyone since he's been incarcerating. Sandra 156 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 1: Ali with me W D I V. Who goes behind 157 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 1: bars to speak to the man who says he's the 158 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 1: last one to see the three little boys alive. Listen 159 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 1: to what the dad says behind bars. I walked in 160 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 1: with a notebook pen which then I was told wasn't allowed. 161 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 1: We weren't allowed to record our visit in any way, 162 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 1: but guards opened several doors. They escorted me to a 163 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:13,199 Speaker 1: small area that looked like a classroom full of prisoners, 164 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:15,680 Speaker 1: and out of the corner of my eye, I saw 165 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 1: John Skelton sitting alone. We talked for more than two hours. 166 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 1: Remember we weren't allowed to bring any of our cameras 167 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 1: inside prison, so all I had to rely on was 168 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 1: my memory. I couldn't get back to the car fast 169 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: enough so I could get everything I was thinking and 170 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 1: feeling on tape. If you can tell, my adrenaline was pumping. 171 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 1: So I walked in the room, we made eye contact. 172 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 1: He shook my hand and he started sobbing, which caught 173 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 1: me off guard. John apologized for crying. He said he 174 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 1: was so emotional because he couldn't believe he was having 175 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:57,719 Speaker 1: contact with a visitor. I was the first person to 176 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 1: visit him here I was sitting in the chair next 177 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 1: to him. I didn't realize we would be in such 178 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 1: close proximity. We were side by side the entire time, 179 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:12,960 Speaker 1: and to my surprise, John wasn't wearing any restraints, no handcuffs, 180 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 1: his belly chain and shackles had all been removed. I 181 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:19,319 Speaker 1: asked him about the boys right off the bat. In tears, 182 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 1: he said, I missed their voices. John said they loved 183 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 1: picking vegetables together, mowing the lawn, and doing dishes. You 184 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 1: could ask anyone in Marenci or any of the inmates here, 185 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 1: they'll tell you I was a good dad. I would 186 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:36,200 Speaker 1: never hurt my boys or anyone. On their last night together, 187 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 1: which John remembers as being the Wednesday before Thanksgiving, John 188 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 1: says he bade the boys their favorite meal, fried chicken, 189 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:46,960 Speaker 1: and a cake to celebrate Andrew's birthday. John said they 190 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:49,559 Speaker 1: all ate dinner together at the table, then watched a 191 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:53,079 Speaker 1: karate movie before going to bed. John says he had 192 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 1: earned made arrangements with the group he calls the Underground 193 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:59,959 Speaker 1: Sanctuary to give the boys away, and on Thanksgiving Nie 194 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 1: at ten, John says he watched as two women and 195 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 1: a man who looked like he was in his sixties 196 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:08,199 Speaker 1: pulled up to the house in their light colored van 197 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 1: to take Andrew, Alexander, and Tanner away. John says he 198 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 1: told the boys they were going to have a better 199 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: life with a new family, a family who lived on 200 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 1: an Amish farm in Ohio, right along the Indiana border. 201 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 1: He promised them their new family would buy them the 202 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 1: farm boots they've been asking for and let the bride 203 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: on a tractor whenever they wanted. Breaking down in tears 204 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 1: for the fourth time during our interview, John said he 205 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: regrets giving his boys away. Based on cell phone tower records, 206 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 1: police say the dad John Skelton's drive that evening started 207 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 1: around four a m. And ended six a m. Is 208 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 1: that when he said goodbye to his children, possibly for 209 00:13:56,400 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: all times. Karen start joining me in New York Psycho. 210 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:02,560 Speaker 1: I'll just see, it's so difficult for people like me 211 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:06,200 Speaker 1: or Cheryl, who I know to be parents, to understand 212 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 1: a dad not coming clean about where his children are. 213 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 1: I mean, the fact that he keeps changing his story 214 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 1: makes me know if I didn't suspect him at the beginning, 215 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 1: I do now, why would his story change? Karen. I 216 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: don't understand how you can disassociate from your own children, 217 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 1: Karen Start. His story keeps changing because he can't come 218 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 1: up with the right story. Nancy. He's not telling us 219 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 1: the truth. And I think it's very telling that he 220 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 1: tried to kill himself, because you're always talking about when 221 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 1: somebody how does it always happen that they managed to 222 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 1: kill their children, but they can't kill themselves, And I 223 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 1: think that's a very telling incident. I think that this 224 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 1: is a whole bunch of malarkey. Now, you certainly put 225 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 1: it more going on. You certainly put it a lot 226 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: more nicely than I would have. Karen start. And another 227 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 1: a thing I'd like to ask you about with me, 228 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 1: Karen Stark, unwed New York psychologist, Karen, we know. Let 229 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 1: me let me double check with Jeremy Allen w D 230 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 1: I V. Jeremy. Obviously they're having a very contentious custody 231 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 1: problem because you outline how he took the children out 232 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 1: of town when he wasn't supposed to, he wouldn't return 233 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 1: them on time. So with that, what what do we 234 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 1: know about that? Because then I'm gonna go back to 235 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 1: Karen with that as a backdrop. Yeah, So the backstory 236 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 1: and the reason that they had the marital problems, I mean, 237 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 1: one of the big reasons they did was because John 238 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 1: Um decided that after going to a family i'm sorry, 239 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 1: a class reunion down in Jacksonville, Florida, where he went 240 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 1: to high school, that he wanted to move his family 241 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 1: to Florida. Jeremy Allen, the mom did not want to 242 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 1: leave the state. I mean, I can only imagine coming 243 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 1: home and my husband saying, oh, yeah, we're moving to Florida. 244 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 1: Oh over my cold dead body. Not that there's anything 245 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 1: wrong with Florida, but I'm not going to uproot the 246 00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 1: children from their school and their home and their relative 247 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 1: Tis and just moved because he wants to be closer 248 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 1: to his high school buddies. But the taking the children 249 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 1: away and the custody battle ensuing, Karen start. I mean, 250 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 1: so often we see that as a backdrop to felonies. 251 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: The parents can't get along, and then send of the 252 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 1: children go missing because one of the parents is is 253 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: saying if I can't have them, then nobody can have them. 254 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 1: I want to go back to Sandra ali w d 255 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 1: I V Detroit reporter Sandra, I want to take a 256 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 1: listen to what you obtained by going behind jail house 257 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 1: walls to speak to this father. I don't know if 258 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 1: he deserves the name father John Skelton. Listen, Remember we 259 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 1: weren't allowed to bring any of our cameras inside prison. 260 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 1: John says he told the boys they were going to 261 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 1: have a better life with a new family who lived 262 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 1: on an Amish farm in Ohio along the Indiana border. 263 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 1: John says he promised the boys their new family would 264 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 1: buy them the farm boots they've been asking for and 265 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:06,720 Speaker 1: let them ride on a tractor whenever they wanted. Breaking 266 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 1: down in tears for the fourth time during our interview, 267 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 1: John said he regrets giving his boys away. The more 268 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:19,159 Speaker 1: that I can talk about my boys and share their story, 269 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 1: the greater chance that that one person that we are 270 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:32,679 Speaker 1: waiting to see our story that knows something, um, the 271 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 1: greater chance of them seeing it. Cheryl mccolluman, director of 272 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 1: the Cold Case Institute. I mean, this business about taking 273 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:44,440 Speaker 1: them and going to Florida, No mom is going to 274 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:47,359 Speaker 1: go along with suddenly uprooting the children just because you 275 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 1: want to be around all your old friends. I don't 276 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 1: believe it. But his story keeps morphing, Cheryl. It keeps morphing, 277 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 1: It keeps changing. He keeps adding, you know an element 278 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 1: here and there that everybody knows his bogus and if 279 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 1: the one thing we also need to mention about his 280 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:09,400 Speaker 1: failed suicide attempt. When that happened, he caught a friend 281 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:12,879 Speaker 1: to take him to the hospital. He wanted no part 282 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:15,360 Speaker 1: of law enforcement. You know, I'm looking at these cell 283 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 1: phone tower records, UM am sixty six am. It concerns 284 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:27,960 Speaker 1: me deeply because it reminds me of the Susan Powell 285 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 1: case Sandra Ali w d I V. Where her husband 286 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 1: Josh is out riding around in the snow after midnight, 287 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:42,200 Speaker 1: claiming he's taking the boys camping. Susan Powell was never 288 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 1: seen alive again, and then later he blew up his 289 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 1: home with the boys in it. What is he doing, Sandra, 290 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 1: Alie out driving around four twenty nine a m. To 291 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:59,119 Speaker 1: sixty six a m. What about other physical evidence? I 292 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 1: know about the self phone records, Sandra, What other evidence 293 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 1: is there? Were the boys clothing there? Did the home 294 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:07,960 Speaker 1: look like there had been some sort of a struggle? 295 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,680 Speaker 1: What do we know? Well, the home we know Nancy 296 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 1: was in complete disarray, and the Fed said when they 297 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 1: went in it was unlike anything they had ever seen before. 298 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:24,640 Speaker 1: It was trashed from top to bottom. Now John Skelton 299 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:28,919 Speaker 1: also claimed he burned a lot of what he called 300 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 1: quote unquote evidence. That's what he told me when we 301 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:35,399 Speaker 1: talked in prison, But the investigators said they never really 302 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 1: saw any evidence that he had burned anything. Um, chords 303 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:44,919 Speaker 1: were cut, computers were smashed, furniture was you know, tossed 304 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 1: to the ground. Um, we don't know if he took 305 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:50,640 Speaker 1: a baseball bat to a lot of stuff, But that's 306 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 1: that's what it looked like. Oh my stars, I'm only 307 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:57,640 Speaker 1: imagining these little boys five, seven and nine in the 308 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:02,440 Speaker 1: middle of all this. And what about the mother, Tanya Zubers. 309 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 1: Take a listen things that were glass We're busted. Um. 310 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 1: The big curio cabinet was smashed to pieces, along with 311 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 1: everything that was inside of it. And then, in a 312 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 1: bizarre twist, his story changes yet again. Sandra al A 313 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 1: w d I V. What is his latest incarnation? He said, 314 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 1: Nancy that he had made prior arrangements when he knew 315 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:34,640 Speaker 1: he was no longer going to have any sort of 316 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:40,119 Speaker 1: custody whatsoever, no shared custody, no visitation, nothing. He said 317 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 1: he made prior arrangements with another family, that's what he's 318 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 1: calling it, another family for the boys to go and 319 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:51,199 Speaker 1: live a better life on an Amish farm. And he 320 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 1: said that those people picked up the boys earlier than 321 00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:00,680 Speaker 1: he had planned. He said that he had eight arrangements 322 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 1: with them, but they came Thanksgiving night at ten o'clock, 323 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 1: three people pulled up to his house that he had 324 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:12,480 Speaker 1: made prior arrangements, and it was a two women and 325 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 1: a man, and he said he watched as they drove 326 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 1: off with his three sons and Amish family. Cheryl McCollum, 327 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 1: director of the Cold Case Institute, an Amish family. What 328 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 1: made that he'd building this thing where that Amish family 329 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:30,720 Speaker 1: is not going to have a phone, They're not going 330 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:33,679 Speaker 1: to have cameras or internet, so they're gonna be on 331 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 1: some farm that you know, nobody has any communication. Wins. 332 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:42,200 Speaker 1: It's completely crap. It's vogan. It's a lie that nobody 333 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,560 Speaker 1: is going to believe, Nancy. Sandra Ali recently interviewed the 334 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:49,360 Speaker 1: man that skeleton told detectives had his sons. Mos Gingrich 335 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 1: had not been initially identified, but after he was Gingrich 336 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 1: visited Skelton and Jail to confront him about it, and 337 00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:00,640 Speaker 1: this is what he now tells Sandra Alie. Mose grew 338 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 1: up Amish. He left the community back in two thousand 339 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 1: two and became a TV personality practically overnight. I didn't 340 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 1: realize I missed a country that much. Mose and his 341 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:13,880 Speaker 1: wife started what he describes as an underground railroad, an 342 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 1: escape for Amish children who wanted to leave the old 343 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 1: world for the new. We just have a good old 344 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,880 Speaker 1: open house policy where new kids that leave and need help, 345 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 1: uh come in and we and we help him get 346 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 1: up and running a safe place, A safe place. By 347 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 1: now you're probably wondering how is this man linked to 348 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 1: John Skelton or his three missing boys. It took me 349 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 1: a while to connect the dots because I was like, 350 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:41,200 Speaker 1: how did this guy ever get my name? John Skelton 351 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 1: first told investigators he gave Andrew, Alexander, and Tanner away 352 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:47,679 Speaker 1: to live with another family where they would be safe. 353 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:50,920 Speaker 1: John later told investigator as a man by the name 354 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 1: of Mose Gingrich would help find his boys their new home. 355 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 1: That detail of John's story hasn't been made public until 356 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 1: now he mention my name. So what happened when investigators 357 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 1: first track down Mose Gingrich? I had two different routes 358 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 1: I could take. I could uh stay secretive about it, 359 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 1: not tell one person about it, and crawl under a 360 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:16,639 Speaker 1: rock and let this guy control my life. Or I 361 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,159 Speaker 1: can do what I'm doing. I can set out to 362 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 1: prove that I'm innocent. I have nothing to hide. Moses 363 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:26,359 Speaker 1: cooperating with the investigation. In fact, in early March, he 364 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,159 Speaker 1: went to the Bellamy Creek Correctional facility to talk to 365 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 1: John face to face. He was pretty shocked to see me. 366 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:35,880 Speaker 1: He was completely caught off guard. He had no idea 367 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:39,400 Speaker 1: I was coming. I think when he gave the detectives 368 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 1: this alibi that he gave these kids to an organization 369 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,680 Speaker 1: out of Missouri, he thought they might just follow up 370 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 1: on this and maybe go interview me, and he'd never 371 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:53,640 Speaker 1: hear anything about it again. I don't think he ever 372 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:57,240 Speaker 1: once thought that the person he's accusing is going to 373 00:23:57,240 --> 00:23:59,639 Speaker 1: come sit down and actually talk with him. Did he 374 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 1: record nize you? Yeah, he recognized me immediately, most says 375 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 1: John Skelton looked uncomfortable, but it was obvious to most. 376 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:12,439 Speaker 1: John is a quick thinker. He's head and shoulder smarter 377 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,359 Speaker 1: than I would have given him credit for. Instead of 378 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: blurting something out that was like, oh you did that 379 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:23,639 Speaker 1: TV show, it took him three seconds to be like, 380 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 1: I saw you in a picture. Somebody gave me a 381 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 1: picture and he was just I couldn't believe how smooth 382 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 1: he was. But I said, ah, I want to talk 383 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 1: to you about your three boys. You said your boys 384 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 1: were given to an unlisted adoption agency. That agency send 385 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 1: him on down the line to me and I said, 386 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:53,640 Speaker 1: I want you to know, Mr Skelton, that I never 387 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,879 Speaker 1: received those three boys. If you did give them to 388 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 1: an adoption agency, there was a disconnect between the than me. 389 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 1: Not only did I never receive them, but I've never 390 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 1: even heard of them until six months ago. And he, uh, 391 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:15,720 Speaker 1: he acted just mind blown. Sad tears started coming. He said, well, 392 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,439 Speaker 1: that was my last hope. That's the only thing I 393 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,160 Speaker 1: had left. I was always told that once I get 394 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 1: out of jail, I can find you, and I can 395 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 1: contact you, and you'll be able to tell me where 396 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 1: these kids are. We think he'd probably seen this television 397 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 1: program and thought, what a perfect alibi to continue this 398 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 1: wild goose chase. John Skelton has told himself and the 399 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 1: world so many lies and so many falsehoods over the 400 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 1: last seven years that he's come to believe most of them. 401 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 1: His life's on the line. Once your life is on 402 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 1: the line, you're going to do anything, any extreme measures, 403 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 1: to the ends of the earth to try to save 404 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:58,119 Speaker 1: your own life. To Sandra ali w d I vy, 405 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:01,440 Speaker 1: what was his demeanor as he spinning this yarn about 406 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 1: an Amish family, you know, Nancy. His demeanor changed a 407 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 1: couple of times. I mean, we were there for several hours, 408 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:12,200 Speaker 1: so when we initially got there, he he sobbed when 409 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,520 Speaker 1: he when we first walked in, and he broke down 410 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:19,800 Speaker 1: several times during the interview. But I will tell you this, Nancy, 411 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 1: as I as I went back and looked through my 412 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:26,880 Speaker 1: notes I had taken later, every time I asked John 413 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:32,919 Speaker 1: Skelton a very pointed, specific question about the investigation, he 414 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:38,359 Speaker 1: would stop and eat, and he would deliberately waste time 415 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:41,440 Speaker 1: as I guess the wheels were turning in his head 416 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 1: as he was trying to figure out how he would 417 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:47,400 Speaker 1: answer my questions. Sandra Alie, that is I mean, I'm 418 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 1: fascinated by that, like I would be looking at a 419 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:55,639 Speaker 1: cobra in a glass box. But what type of question 420 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 1: would you ask to elicit that behavior ready to stop 421 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:01,920 Speaker 1: everything and start eating. I mean, I don't even know 422 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 1: how many thousands of witnesses I have interviewed or interrogated, 423 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 1: direct examed, or cross exam and I watched them very closely. 424 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,960 Speaker 1: And Cheryl, I remember telling you this, and you laughed 425 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 1: when I told you I would at some point try 426 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 1: not to even blink when I would watch a person 427 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 1: answer my question. And I practiced it over time, so 428 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,159 Speaker 1: I wouldn't have to blink, because I want to just 429 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 1: catch every movement. If they looked away quickly at the question, 430 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 1: or they turned their head, or they looked down and 431 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:34,880 Speaker 1: they looked up, I did not want to miss a 432 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 1: single thing as I examined them and determine in my 433 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:43,399 Speaker 1: own mind their veracity, their truth. What do you make, Cheryl, 434 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 1: of what Sandra Ali is saying that she had asked 435 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,359 Speaker 1: him a point of question and he had stop everything 436 00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 1: and start eating. Fascinating And what he's doing there is 437 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,919 Speaker 1: I can't talk with a mouthful of food because that 438 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 1: would be rude. So we've given himself time to think 439 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 1: of an an so that he thinks she's gonna buy. 440 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 1: So if she point blank says did you harm your boys? 441 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 1: Did you kill your boys? Do you know where your 442 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,239 Speaker 1: boys are? He's gonna start eating so he doesn't have 443 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:13,639 Speaker 1: to answer. Sandra, what were some of the questions you 444 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,399 Speaker 1: would ask that would make him stop everything and start eating? 445 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 1: You said they were pointed? I asked him, Nancy, point blank, 446 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 1: did you hurt your boys? Where did you take them? 447 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,920 Speaker 1: Were they in the van with you that morning when 448 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 1: you drove to holiday city, When was the last time 449 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,159 Speaker 1: you saw them? And he he took a lot of 450 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,960 Speaker 1: time in answering. Now, if if John Skelton was talking 451 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 1: about himself and his you know, anything personal about himself, 452 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 1: he you know, he had no problems spending a lot 453 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 1: of time talking about himself. But when I specifically asked 454 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 1: him about the boys, he would be very, very deliberate 455 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 1: in his answer. You know, when when she was asking 456 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 1: those questions, I immediately he fired off the answers in 457 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 1: my head, Karen, start, when's the last time I saw 458 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:06,160 Speaker 1: the twins? What were they doing? What were they wearing? 459 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 1: Had I hurt them? I mean all that, I mean, 460 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:12,760 Speaker 1: there's an immediate answer firing through my brain. Karen. That 461 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,200 Speaker 1: is so classic. And I'll tell you something. Nancy and 462 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 1: I work with patients and we touch upon a subject 463 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 1: that they find unbearable or too much that they can 464 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:29,959 Speaker 1: answer it, that it's painful, or they haven't thought about it. 465 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 1: They'll change the subject and they'll start talking about something else, 466 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:39,600 Speaker 1: or there will be these very long pauses. So he's 467 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 1: obviously prevaricating and trying to take time away from the question. 468 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 1: He's being asked to figure out what would be the 469 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 1: right thing to say right now that will fit the 470 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 1: rest of the story that I've come up with. Take 471 00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 1: a listen to what the Skelton brothers, the three little 472 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 1: boys now missing, five, seven, and nine years old. Mom 473 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 1: Tanya Zeevers says, the loving carrying sons that I raised 474 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 1: to the ages. They don't They don't like Mom to 475 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 1: cry and be upset. They want Mom. This is who 476 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:25,480 Speaker 1: they know, this is what they want. You know, so 477 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 1: I don't because someday we will be back together. I 478 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:36,320 Speaker 1: will find them. It may not be until I'm buried, 479 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:44,000 Speaker 1: but I will find them. And I don't want them 480 00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:47,840 Speaker 1: to think that I was just a shell little person 481 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:57,840 Speaker 1: in our time apart various angry um who I am? Now? 482 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 1: If I could Jess have a minute with him, would 483 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:09,959 Speaker 1: you want to talk to him, Tanya? I think so. 484 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:18,600 Speaker 1: I want to remind him of his sons and the 485 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:24,880 Speaker 1: happy times and all the the things. And one answers 486 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:29,800 Speaker 1: as to why you would do this to you our sons, 487 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:44,520 Speaker 1: Your sons tomorrow would have the birthday number for my baby. 488 00:31:53,320 --> 00:32:00,720 Speaker 1: You wonder what do you wonder about? Who would he be? 489 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 1: What does he look like? All of them? To Jeremy 490 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:23,800 Speaker 1: Allen W. D. I V a Detroit producer. Jeremy, you know, 491 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 1: you and Sandra know the physical evidence better than anybody. 492 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 1: What do you make of what happened that day? We 493 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: know a lot because we've talked to investigators, not so much. 494 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 1: And as Sandra talked about earlier, the house was just 495 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 1: destroyed from top to bottom. Um. And one of the 496 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:45,280 Speaker 1: big pieces of evidence that investigators had early on was 497 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 1: looking at John's search history on his computer UM, which 498 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 1: showed that he had googled um, how can you break 499 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 1: a neck with your hands? Oh, my stars, I didn't 500 00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:00,480 Speaker 1: know that part. That's given me horrible flashbacks to the 501 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:05,000 Speaker 1: top Mom Casey Anthony trial, where she had researched net 502 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:11,040 Speaker 1: breaking and turning household items into weapons and something else. 503 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 1: You just said, Jeremy w D I V. You know 504 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:19,480 Speaker 1: if I can. When I leave for the morning, I 505 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:23,320 Speaker 1: try to put everything back in place and have everything 506 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,920 Speaker 1: neat and organized as best as I can before the 507 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:31,720 Speaker 1: children come home, because I want them to have stability 508 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:36,280 Speaker 1: and a sense of peace and orderliness as they live, 509 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,880 Speaker 1: not like the house like a cyclone hit it, which 510 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:42,640 Speaker 1: you know, it happens when you're a family and everybody's 511 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,760 Speaker 1: working and trying to get to school and just imagining 512 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:50,800 Speaker 1: it's the exact bess Akward opposite of him leaving the 513 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 1: home all destroyed and everything broken, like you took a 514 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,200 Speaker 1: baseball back to it. Back to the computer searches, Jeremy 515 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:00,760 Speaker 1: Allen W d Ivy, what do we know about his 516 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,400 Speaker 1: computer searches. He's the only adult in the home. It 517 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,120 Speaker 1: had to be him, Yeah, it was it was him, 518 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 1: And uh, you know the other searches they found that 519 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 1: was very disconcerning was the fact that he searched does 520 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 1: rat poison kill humans? Um? And I think Sandra can 521 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:18,239 Speaker 1: probably speak a little bit more to that, because you know, 522 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 1: they got into that a little bit more. Sandra, alie 523 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:23,959 Speaker 1: So and Anthy. I did ask John when we talked 524 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 1: in prison about his computer searches. I said, you know, 525 00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 1: I said, John, how do you even then explain what 526 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:33,080 Speaker 1: they found on your computer? And he said, well, what 527 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:34,880 Speaker 1: what did they find on my computer? I said, how 528 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:39,280 Speaker 1: do you explain rat poison? And he said poison? I've 529 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:43,200 Speaker 1: I've never searched for poison on my computer. I've I've 530 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,040 Speaker 1: never looked that up. And I said, well, what about 531 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:50,759 Speaker 1: how to break someone's neck? And he said, he he 532 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,200 Speaker 1: kind of chuckled a little bit, and then he went 533 00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:58,640 Speaker 1: into a very long explanation about how he said he 534 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,680 Speaker 1: and the boys had watched the Karate movie the last 535 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 1: night they were together, and that the boys had asked 536 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:07,600 Speaker 1: him to look that up because of something they had 537 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 1: seen in this karate movie with me. Sandra Ali and 538 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,040 Speaker 1: Jeremy Allen, both from w D I V. Detroit, who 539 00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 1: have never let go of this case. They're on it 540 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:20,759 Speaker 1: now as strong as ever. Sandra, Alie, what do you 541 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 1: make of his latest story that he gave the children 542 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:28,440 Speaker 1: over willingly to an Amish family, And, as Cheryl McCollum 543 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,840 Speaker 1: correctly points out, that would be a way to explain 544 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:34,000 Speaker 1: how you can't find them. They don't have a phone 545 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,480 Speaker 1: that you can't know know where they live. You know 546 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 1: that they're out in some communal setting where they can't 547 00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:47,960 Speaker 1: be uncovered. Sandra explained to me, none of it makes sense, Nancy, 548 00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:52,839 Speaker 1: none of it makes sense, And John Skelton repeated over 549 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:56,520 Speaker 1: and over it wasn't. He kept saying that this wasn't 550 00:35:56,520 --> 00:36:00,160 Speaker 1: out of anger. I didn't do anything out of an here. 551 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:03,840 Speaker 1: I did this because I knew I could no longer 552 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 1: be with my boys, and he has no solid explanation. 553 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:13,759 Speaker 1: And I think that's what's so frustrating for investigators. It's 554 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 1: like the boys vanished into thin air and he's sitting 555 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:22,960 Speaker 1: there in prison and he's not not talking. He's not 556 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,719 Speaker 1: giving anyone anything to go on. Well, what I don't 557 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,960 Speaker 1: understand is why he could not reveal their location now. 558 00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 1: And I asked him that. I asked him, I said, 559 00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:35,880 Speaker 1: you know, give us a name, give us a phone number, 560 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:39,000 Speaker 1: give us a location. And you know, he did say 561 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:44,760 Speaker 1: that this quote unquote group was supposed to reach out 562 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:49,920 Speaker 1: to his family in Jacksonville, Florida, and and show them 563 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:54,359 Speaker 1: that the boys were safe, and show them evidence, if 564 00:36:54,719 --> 00:37:00,880 Speaker 1: that's evidence in pictures, letters, videos, something to show the 565 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:04,920 Speaker 1: grandparents who are in Florida that the boys are indeed 566 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:09,960 Speaker 1: safe and sound and living on this farm. That evidence 567 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,759 Speaker 1: has never come to fruition. No one has ever sent 568 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:16,960 Speaker 1: his family in Florida anything. His kids are fine. I 569 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:19,879 Speaker 1: know this as a grandmother. I have a grandmother's art 570 00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:22,759 Speaker 1: and I know this. I don't know where they are. 571 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:26,040 Speaker 1: If I did, they wouldn't be there. This is his 572 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:29,799 Speaker 1: Facebook page and it says I love my wife very much. 573 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:34,400 Speaker 1: May God Antonia forgive me Dad. John Skelton claims he 574 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:37,759 Speaker 1: was trying to keep his three little boys out of 575 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:42,320 Speaker 1: harm's way. How in the world, Sandra ali w d 576 00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,959 Speaker 1: I V Is this keeping them out of harm's way? 577 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:48,839 Speaker 1: What I mean? The only one causing harm to them 578 00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:53,439 Speaker 1: was him, Sandra. His claim is they were being mistreated 579 00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:58,040 Speaker 1: and abused by their mother. That's his claim. Now, was 580 00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:01,319 Speaker 1: there was there any evidence to support that? Well, no, no, 581 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:03,719 Speaker 1: And and you know, and Jeremy spent a great deal 582 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:06,920 Speaker 1: of time talking to the boys mother, Tanya, and you 583 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,399 Speaker 1: know she'll tell you, police will tell you they never 584 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:11,760 Speaker 1: found any claims of abuse. As a matter of fact, 585 00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:15,880 Speaker 1: the mom speaks directly to that question. Listen to Tanya. 586 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:21,279 Speaker 1: That has all been investigated. I was investigated. I was 587 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:28,440 Speaker 1: interrogated as well. My house was searched, my computer was searched, 588 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:34,360 Speaker 1: all of my stuff was gone through as well. They 589 00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:46,440 Speaker 1: were interviews with school teachers, school administrators, church people, friends, 590 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:54,160 Speaker 1: all kinds of people, um, school administrators and teachers who 591 00:38:54,160 --> 00:39:00,440 Speaker 1: are trained to see abuse in children, who said to 592 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:08,520 Speaker 1: the police, I have never seen more children more loved 593 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:13,360 Speaker 1: and cared for by their mother. Those children were not abused. 594 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:19,839 Speaker 1: There is no way, And anyone who truly knows me 595 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:32,040 Speaker 1: knows that my children come first, always have, always will. 596 00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:40,440 Speaker 1: My dream job was to be a mom, and within 597 00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:43,080 Speaker 1: the first year of getting married, I was pregnant for 598 00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:48,040 Speaker 1: my first child. And this year marks thirty years that 599 00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:51,520 Speaker 1: I've been a mom and it is the greatest job 600 00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:53,480 Speaker 1: in the world. And now I get to be a 601 00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:59,560 Speaker 1: grandma too. But to say that I abused my son's 602 00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:08,799 Speaker 1: kills me to Jeremy Allen w d I V you know, 603 00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:12,040 Speaker 1: I have watched the mother. I have studied her carefully. 604 00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:14,200 Speaker 1: I don't believe she would touch a hair on their head. 605 00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:16,200 Speaker 1: I don't think there's any way this mom would have 606 00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:19,280 Speaker 1: hurt her little children. I mean, she says her dream 607 00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:21,359 Speaker 1: job was to be a mom, and I believe her. Yeah, 608 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:24,320 Speaker 1: I mean, you get the impression when you're talking to Tanya, 609 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:28,160 Speaker 1: especially face to face, that you know there was nowhere 610 00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:29,960 Speaker 1: in the world she'd rather be than in her home 611 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:34,520 Speaker 1: with her children. UM. I've always felt that that. Yeah, 612 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:36,840 Speaker 1: she was genuine and honest when she talked about her 613 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:40,320 Speaker 1: love for her children, So UM, to me, it doesn't 614 00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:44,600 Speaker 1: seem like a possibility, um that she was abusing her children. UM. 615 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:47,600 Speaker 1: Even though obviously John and John's family would tell you otherwise. Well, 616 00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:50,160 Speaker 1: I mean, he's the one, Sandra Ali not telling us 617 00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:52,799 Speaker 1: where the children are. So what's his excuse for not 618 00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:55,680 Speaker 1: telling us where they are? Now? I mean, you'd rather 619 00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:59,040 Speaker 1: sit behind bars and rot as we wait to find 620 00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:02,239 Speaker 1: out where they are. And I don't either, Nancy. And 621 00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:05,560 Speaker 1: he did say I'm I'm gonna sit here and serve 622 00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:08,960 Speaker 1: time anyway, he said a couple of times, which I 623 00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:12,800 Speaker 1: found very interesting. He kept saying, you know, I'm guilty, 624 00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:16,680 Speaker 1: and I said, you're guilty, and he said, yeah, I'm guilty, um, 625 00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:22,120 Speaker 1: for I'm serving my my debt to society because I 626 00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:24,520 Speaker 1: did not have custody of the boys, and so I'm 627 00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:29,359 Speaker 1: guilty of unlawful imprisonment. And I said, well, John, why 628 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:32,320 Speaker 1: don't you work out some sort of deal? I said, 629 00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:37,120 Speaker 1: why don't you tell everyone where the boys are? Tell 630 00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:40,479 Speaker 1: investigators where the boys are, work out some sort of deal. 631 00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:44,080 Speaker 1: Everyone you're saying they're safe. Everyone just wants to know 632 00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:47,320 Speaker 1: they're safe and see them again and be with them again. 633 00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:50,439 Speaker 1: And he said, why would I Why would I tell 634 00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:52,719 Speaker 1: them where they are? Why would I do that? They're 635 00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:56,200 Speaker 1: just gonna meet me, he said at the prison door, 636 00:41:56,760 --> 00:42:00,000 Speaker 1: and get me for something else. So I might as 637 00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:02,640 Speaker 1: well just continue sitting here and serving my time. To 638 00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:09,200 Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Institute, where are they, Cheryl, Nancy, 639 00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:11,160 Speaker 1: I agree with the sheriff, this is not going to 640 00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:14,560 Speaker 1: have a good ending. Um. It's interesting to me that 641 00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:18,880 Speaker 1: he mentioned to Miss Ali Tempium. Any time I suspect 642 00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:22,839 Speaker 1: gives me a time, I highlight it. So from ten 643 00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:27,760 Speaker 1: pm to four nine is six hours where something bad 644 00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:31,640 Speaker 1: happened in that home. And then between the four thirty 645 00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:34,160 Speaker 1: and six forty five when his phone is actually moving, 646 00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:36,600 Speaker 1: That doesn't mean it wasn't moving before. He could have 647 00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:39,560 Speaker 1: left it at the house, and he was moving without 648 00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:43,560 Speaker 1: the phones in that van, so they could literally be anywhere. 649 00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:46,759 Speaker 1: But I do not believe their lies. Sando Alie with 650 00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:54,120 Speaker 1: me along with Jeremy Allen. Just recently bone fragments were 651 00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:58,080 Speaker 1: uncovered and my heart just sunk. I just was so 652 00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:03,960 Speaker 1: afraid it was a skeleton. Boys. What became of that discovery, Sandra, Well, Nancy, 653 00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:06,640 Speaker 1: you know when we heard about that, it was you know, 654 00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:11,120 Speaker 1: sheer panic here as well in the newsroom, and everyone 655 00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:14,360 Speaker 1: initially thought, well, maybe maybe this is it. This is 656 00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:19,200 Speaker 1: the day the boys bones are discovered? And uh, you 657 00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:25,000 Speaker 1: know they've done DNA testing, extensive testing, and they've just 658 00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:31,000 Speaker 1: ruled in fact that these bones, this discovery has no 659 00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:36,000 Speaker 1: no match to Andrew, Alexander or Tanner Skelton. Well, I 660 00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:41,720 Speaker 1: thank God for that. But in another way, Cheryl McCollum, 661 00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,200 Speaker 1: I mean, when I look back on how I felt 662 00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:47,759 Speaker 1: when I learned that their bones have been found and 663 00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:52,120 Speaker 1: I was praying it wasn't the Skelton boys. Now I 664 00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:56,560 Speaker 1: don't know if I should pray for the discovery of 665 00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:59,319 Speaker 1: their bodies so we can know what happened and they 666 00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:01,719 Speaker 1: can be bare eat. I mean, Cheryl, do you really 667 00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:05,400 Speaker 1: believe they were living with some Amish family. That's crazy talk, 668 00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:08,080 Speaker 1: That is insane. And Nancy, here's the thing. When the 669 00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:13,560 Speaker 1: bones were found in that shed, John Skelton himself said 670 00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:16,480 Speaker 1: those aren't the boys. Well, how the hell would he 671 00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:18,719 Speaker 1: know that? He doesn't know where they are. If he 672 00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:21,439 Speaker 1: gave them to some family, the family could have harned them. 673 00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:23,920 Speaker 1: The only way that he knows their remains were not 674 00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:27,080 Speaker 1: in that shed is if he knows where their remains are, 675 00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:31,879 Speaker 1: and he does. Sandra Ali, what are your thoughts, where 676 00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:34,640 Speaker 1: are the boys and what can we do to bring 677 00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:37,960 Speaker 1: them home? You know, Nancy, I wish I knew, and 678 00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:42,239 Speaker 1: and I see why investigators and everyone involved in this 679 00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:46,080 Speaker 1: case and in this this poor family and this poor 680 00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:49,920 Speaker 1: grieving mother. You, when you're this close to this case, 681 00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:52,560 Speaker 1: do you realize do you understand why everyone is so 682 00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:57,120 Speaker 1: frustrated and so heartbroken? This has gone on for so 683 00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:02,480 Speaker 1: long and we're no closer to solving the mystery. It 684 00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:06,239 Speaker 1: seems that as time goes on, the mystery just deepens, 685 00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:09,319 Speaker 1: which is what makes us even more difficult. When you 686 00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:11,319 Speaker 1: say the mystery deepens, what do you mean by that? 687 00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:14,919 Speaker 1: And what was the single most disturbing thing? Skelton said 688 00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:17,319 Speaker 1: behind bars, you know, there was so much, he said, 689 00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:19,720 Speaker 1: I will tell you. You know, we just talked about 690 00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:22,760 Speaker 1: the bones. One of the first things he talked about 691 00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:27,680 Speaker 1: when even before I sat down, was the bones. And 692 00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:32,920 Speaker 1: he he said, um, he re rolled, he rolled his eyes, 693 00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:36,160 Speaker 1: and he said, I said, what did you think when 694 00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:39,760 Speaker 1: you saw that on the news? And he said, oh, 695 00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:43,440 Speaker 1: those those aren't my boys, Uh, you know. And he 696 00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:47,640 Speaker 1: even talked to family members and said, oh, I knew 697 00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:51,560 Speaker 1: after I saw those reports, I knew those weren't my boys, Nancy, 698 00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:53,960 Speaker 1: I've been doing a podcast on this for since May 699 00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:57,279 Speaker 1: of two thousand seventeen, and uh, you know, we've gone 700 00:45:57,280 --> 00:45:59,160 Speaker 1: more in depth on this story than anyone ever has. 701 00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:02,439 Speaker 1: And in fact, we've talked to John's parents, um, which 702 00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:06,560 Speaker 1: nobody has done for years, and they um seemed to 703 00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:10,640 Speaker 1: blindly follow John's words. And that was disconcerting to me 704 00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:13,799 Speaker 1: because I think when when people are pointing the finger 705 00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:16,520 Speaker 1: at John's family, I think it's important to remember that 706 00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:20,160 Speaker 1: they all regard John as um kind of this intellect, 707 00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:24,960 Speaker 1: the superior mind, and their family. So when they talk 708 00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:27,200 Speaker 1: and they tell the story about what John told them, 709 00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:30,360 Speaker 1: I believe them that they think they're telling the truth. 710 00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:34,480 Speaker 1: Now I don't believe that John's telling the truth. So basically, 711 00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:38,080 Speaker 1: you're getting John's story through the parents. But just remember 712 00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:40,480 Speaker 1: that a lot of those people in John's family are 713 00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:43,040 Speaker 1: victims as well. I'm looking at the pictures of the 714 00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:50,120 Speaker 1: little boys, Um, they're beautiful, Andrew, Alexander and Tanner. They're 715 00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:53,279 Speaker 1: old enough now if they were alive, they would have 716 00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:56,040 Speaker 1: found a way to let people know if they were. 717 00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:59,120 Speaker 1: That's probably going to say. If three little boys all 718 00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:01,200 Speaker 1: of a sudden well, the next door to you, or 719 00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:04,239 Speaker 1: in your school or in your community, you would know it. 720 00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:08,200 Speaker 1: Nobody has reported it. There's no way a seven year 721 00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:10,040 Speaker 1: old and a nine year old are not going to 722 00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:12,960 Speaker 1: talk about where they used to live or their old 723 00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:19,160 Speaker 1: house or their mama. There's no chance these children are alive. Yeah, 724 00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:21,439 Speaker 1: that they would try and get in touch with their mother, 725 00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:25,520 Speaker 1: You know that, Nancy. They would, they would, they would 726 00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:29,120 Speaker 1: do anything possible to try and reach out. I mean 727 00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:33,040 Speaker 1: in the third grade, of course. Nancy. John Skelton's family, 728 00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:36,800 Speaker 1: his father, mother, and sister have a reply to that. Well, 729 00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:41,720 Speaker 1: I've I've thought about that. I questioned that too. Why 730 00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:47,840 Speaker 1: hasn't them boys? Did anybody ever think maybe they're happy 731 00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:50,680 Speaker 1: where they're at? The Marines? Police are there's no way 732 00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:53,160 Speaker 1: you can hide children. Well, I pulled up a hundred 733 00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:56,880 Speaker 1: eighty six cases of underground children that have been hidden. 734 00:47:57,040 --> 00:47:59,800 Speaker 1: A few years back, I was feeling down here in Jackson, 735 00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:03,480 Speaker 1: was filling up on my other shock for fuel and 736 00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:07,040 Speaker 1: I'm just having it back there and gentlemen come up 737 00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:08,720 Speaker 1: behind me and you asked me not to turn around 738 00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:14,480 Speaker 1: and said, I know your plight and your sons are okay, really, 739 00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:18,440 Speaker 1: And I just thank you, and that was it. That 740 00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:23,360 Speaker 1: was it. He didn't turn around. It pops in my 741 00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:27,399 Speaker 1: head all the time. Why haven't they contacted somebody? Right? 742 00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:33,399 Speaker 1: Maybe they're happy that John gave the kids to somebody. Yes, 743 00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:35,839 Speaker 1: you do believe that, and you believe those kids are 744 00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:39,840 Speaker 1: safe with you whoever that group is, Yes, confident that 745 00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:43,160 Speaker 1: your son is telling the truth. And I think that's 746 00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:45,960 Speaker 1: the important thing in all this is I think everyone's 747 00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:47,759 Speaker 1: waiting to find out if John's telling the truth. Right. 748 00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:52,080 Speaker 1: Of course, they are intending it's just gonna who's gonna 749 00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:55,600 Speaker 1: get the last laugh. So you believe that to this day. 750 00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:58,560 Speaker 1: Of those ways, I believe those boys are fine. You 751 00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:00,719 Speaker 1: believe that or do you want to believe? No? I 752 00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:04,640 Speaker 1: believe it. I believe it full in my heart. I 753 00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:09,920 Speaker 1: believe it totally one percent that them boys are buying. 754 00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:12,280 Speaker 1: Is there a victim or is it just the boys 755 00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:15,000 Speaker 1: that were victims in a kind of a messed up 756 00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:20,560 Speaker 1: household For a little while, I think only the boys 757 00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:31,200 Speaker 1: are the victims because they've lost, they've they're protected, but 758 00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:36,800 Speaker 1: they're missing out on two grandparents that love them in, 759 00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:42,200 Speaker 1: an aunt and a daddy that loves them dearly. And 760 00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:46,080 Speaker 1: I'm sure Daniel loves them too. I mean, you know 761 00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:53,520 Speaker 1: everyone's a victim. I guess there is a sixty thousand 762 00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:58,520 Speaker 1: dollar reward the tip line five one seven four eight 763 00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:04,280 Speaker 1: zero War Repeat five one seven four five eight seven 764 00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:12,280 Speaker 1: one zero four. Karen Stark, Cheryl McCullen, Jeremy Allen, Sandra Ali, 765 00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:19,440 Speaker 1: thank you, Nancy Grace Crime Stories, signing off, goodbye friend 766 00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:21,759 Speaker 1: ye