WEBVTT - Destructive Agriculture is Solvable 0:00:15.076 --> 0:00:25.356 Pushkin. This is solvable on Jacob Weisberg. People often vacation 0:00:25.716 --> 0:00:28.316 to the beach and they talk about the ocean as 0:00:28.356 --> 0:00:31.916 this rape vista with all of the life teeming under 0:00:31.956 --> 0:00:36.356 the surface, and my father uses the same metaphor for 0:00:36.476 --> 0:00:40.756 the prairie. Rachel Stroer grew up in Kansas among prairie 0:00:40.756 --> 0:00:44.436 grasses and fields of waving wheat. Across the world, wheat 0:00:44.476 --> 0:00:48.476 production and other annual grains account for seventy of the 0:00:48.596 --> 0:00:53.476 land used for agricultural purposes. Monoculture crops like wheat are 0:00:53.556 --> 0:00:57.836 often grown in enormous single species plots and provide sustenance 0:00:57.916 --> 0:01:01.876 for millions of people, but they also lead the problems. 0:01:02.196 --> 0:01:08.116 The problems in agriculture are nitrate leaching, soil erosion, farmer debt, 0:01:08.356 --> 0:01:13.716 loss of soil organic matter, herbicide resistance, over production, pesticide poisoning, 0:01:13.716 --> 0:01:17.476 and the list goes on. Strawer is the acting president 0:01:17.516 --> 0:01:21.476 of the Kansas based Land Institute. Her organization works to 0:01:21.516 --> 0:01:26.276 promote regenerative agriculture, our rejection of monoculture farming in favor 0:01:26.356 --> 0:01:29.196 of investing in seeds that come back year after year 0:01:29.596 --> 0:01:34.196 and a reduced dependence on chemical fertilizer. The land Institute 0:01:34.196 --> 0:01:39.796 itself breeds new varieties of perennial seeds, one called rnza. 0:01:40.396 --> 0:01:43.876 It's something they hope will replace traditional wheat in everything 0:01:43.916 --> 0:01:48.156 from cereals to crackers, to beer and bread, all the 0:01:48.196 --> 0:01:52.316 while helping to restore nutrient balances in the soil and 0:01:52.476 --> 0:01:55.316 clean the air we breathe. And so what we want 0:01:55.356 --> 0:01:59.316 to do is solve the problem of agriculture, which means 0:01:59.396 --> 0:02:03.516 to create an agriculture that is as regenerative as the 0:02:03.636 --> 0:02:07.076 natural systems that build the soil upon which our food 0:02:07.196 --> 0:02:13.196 systems depends. My co host down Apple Bomb spoke with 0:02:13.276 --> 0:02:16.916 Strower about regenerative agriculture and what it can do to 0:02:16.996 --> 0:02:20.956 help solve the problems faced by farmers and consumers alike. 0:02:21.676 --> 0:02:26.676 Here's their conversation. Rachel, can you start by explaining to 0:02:26.716 --> 0:02:29.756 me what exactly is wrong with the crops that we're growing. 0:02:30.396 --> 0:02:34.276 Our agriculture system is extractive. You can think of this 0:02:34.396 --> 0:02:38.716 as like a bank account. Our agriculture takes more out 0:02:38.756 --> 0:02:43.796 of the resource bank account, which is soil, water, nutrients. 0:02:43.876 --> 0:02:46.716 So I'd like to say our food system is sort 0:02:46.716 --> 0:02:51.396 of a terminal feedback loop of extraction. So you're talking 0:02:51.436 --> 0:02:56.436 about essentially reversing the course of agricultural development as it's 0:02:56.476 --> 0:03:00.636 gone over the last ten thousand years and changing it 0:03:00.676 --> 0:03:04.476 to make it something more natural and more reflective of 0:03:04.716 --> 0:03:08.636 the natural world. Yes, and at the Land Institute specifically, 0:03:09.556 --> 0:03:14.196 we are developing perennial grain crops with the intent to 0:03:14.876 --> 0:03:18.996 grow them in agricultural systems in diverse mixture, so that 0:03:18.996 --> 0:03:23.436 there are multiple species growing in one field. Perennial crop 0:03:23.556 --> 0:03:27.756 sounds very specific. What's the difference between planting an annual 0:03:27.796 --> 0:03:30.276 crop and a perennial crop and why is that so 0:03:30.316 --> 0:03:34.756 important for the environment. An annual crop is tilled up 0:03:34.996 --> 0:03:39.996 every year, so the soil is disturbed on an annual basis. 0:03:40.076 --> 0:03:42.436 And what we've done over time and in particularly in 0:03:42.476 --> 0:03:46.116 the last hundred to two hundred years, is we have 0:03:46.556 --> 0:03:51.556 accommodated for the destruction that we create in tilling by 0:03:51.756 --> 0:03:57.676 using chemical inputs, and so the perennial grain grows back 0:03:57.996 --> 0:04:02.196 year after year and produces a harvestable food crop on 0:04:02.236 --> 0:04:06.356 a perennial basis, so that we don't have to till 0:04:07.076 --> 0:04:10.716 and therefore don't have to use as much or any 0:04:10.756 --> 0:04:13.716 of the chemical inputs that we use today. What's the 0:04:13.756 --> 0:04:18.956 relationship of this idea, this form of regenerative agriculture to 0:04:19.596 --> 0:04:23.996 the problem of carbon emissions. Will this reduce carbon is? That? 0:04:24.196 --> 0:04:26.716 Is that one of the goals of this of this change. 0:04:27.196 --> 0:04:29.636 Not only does it draw down the carbon that was 0:04:29.676 --> 0:04:33.836 released over the last ten thousand years, but it's sustained 0:04:34.236 --> 0:04:37.036 that much of that carbon in the soil over the 0:04:37.116 --> 0:04:40.556 long term, year after year, as the roots stay in 0:04:40.596 --> 0:04:43.956 the ground year after year. So we believe that we 0:04:43.956 --> 0:04:47.596 can read the quester much of what has been lost 0:04:47.876 --> 0:04:51.356 in both the soil carbon as well as the plant 0:04:51.436 --> 0:04:55.876 matter of a perennial stand of grain production. But the 0:04:55.956 --> 0:05:01.236 system that you're talking about, presumably it's more expensive, it 0:05:01.276 --> 0:05:04.036 produces less output. I mean, I'm wondering, you know, if 0:05:04.036 --> 0:05:06.156 this is the better way to do it, how why 0:05:06.196 --> 0:05:10.156 did humanity, you know, stumble upon this cosletely different method 0:05:10.476 --> 0:05:12.956 pursuing it with great energy ever since. I mean, there 0:05:13.036 --> 0:05:16.636 must be a reason why we shifted to this monoculture 0:05:17.556 --> 0:05:21.116 extractive method in the first place. Yes, there's a lot 0:05:21.116 --> 0:05:24.596 of different theories about why we didn't develop perennials at 0:05:24.596 --> 0:05:28.916 the beginning of agriculture. One is that when our ancestors 0:05:29.116 --> 0:05:33.996 looked for food in the wild, they noticed that they 0:05:34.076 --> 0:05:39.996 happened upon annuals that actually had larger seeds than the perennials, 0:05:40.036 --> 0:05:44.236 and so they selected the annual plants not because of 0:05:44.276 --> 0:05:48.876 their annual tendency necessarily, but because of what they were producing. 0:05:49.716 --> 0:05:53.716 And then secondly, there was this sort of natural selection 0:05:53.796 --> 0:05:57.196 that happened on those annuals as they began to be 0:05:57.316 --> 0:06:03.476 cultivated that caused them, even without intentional breeding, to become 0:06:03.556 --> 0:06:07.836 even more suited and yield higher inputs. There's also the 0:06:07.876 --> 0:06:11.436 benefit that the annual dies every year that it cannot survive, 0:06:12.076 --> 0:06:16.036 so you can always replace your stand in the next 0:06:16.116 --> 0:06:19.516 year with the best seed from the last year. And 0:06:20.076 --> 0:06:23.636 perennials are very hard to kill. So we can breed 0:06:23.716 --> 0:06:28.156 perennials more easily now because we have knowledge of plant 0:06:28.196 --> 0:06:32.556 breeding and sort of computational skill that allow us to 0:06:32.596 --> 0:06:36.396 move more quickly, and we also have large machinery and 0:06:36.756 --> 0:06:40.436 ways of killing a perennial, you know, or transitioning it out, 0:06:40.476 --> 0:06:43.476 so that we can breed it in a more conventional 0:06:43.756 --> 0:06:46.876 and you in a similar way that we breed annuals 0:06:46.956 --> 0:06:49.596 and half over the last couple hundred years. And that's 0:06:49.596 --> 0:06:52.716 not more expensive, it's not prohibitive in some other way. 0:06:53.196 --> 0:06:57.036 I don't I don't believe that that breeding perennials is 0:06:57.076 --> 0:07:02.556 more expensive than breeding annuals. Today. However, it takes time. 0:07:02.876 --> 0:07:06.236 You know, it's taken an intensified one hundred and fifty 0:07:06.316 --> 0:07:10.596 years to get the high yielding grain crops. You know, 0:07:10.756 --> 0:07:15.316 handful of grain crops that we have today, and in 0:07:15.356 --> 0:07:19.556 just about twenty years of intensive breeding on Karnsa perennial grain, 0:07:19.596 --> 0:07:23.596 for instance, it is showing signs of being able to 0:07:24.796 --> 0:07:30.556 live up to its annual wheat substitute in the next 0:07:30.596 --> 0:07:34.716 ten or twenty years. Tell me about Kurnza. It's one 0:07:34.716 --> 0:07:37.996 of the grains that you've promoted, and I've I've read 0:07:38.036 --> 0:07:39.916 a little bit about it. It's being grown by several 0:07:40.076 --> 0:07:42.716 in several places around the country, but it's not on 0:07:42.756 --> 0:07:46.116 the market yet. Tell us about this particular grain and 0:07:46.756 --> 0:07:50.076 why you're working on it. So, Karnsa is one of 0:07:50.596 --> 0:07:53.956 five crops that we're developing at the Land Institute. Five 0:07:53.956 --> 0:07:56.916 perennial grain crops were developing at the Land Institute. It 0:07:56.996 --> 0:08:01.076 is a nuttier version of wheat. Really, it's from the 0:08:01.116 --> 0:08:05.396 plant called intermediate wheat grass. So it looks like wheat 0:08:05.596 --> 0:08:08.756 in a field, but the seed is much smaller. It 0:08:08.916 --> 0:08:12.156 is longer than a wheat berry, which is pretty plump 0:08:12.316 --> 0:08:16.796 and short. Brands like General Mills started using it and 0:08:17.236 --> 0:08:21.476 it is growing on about two thousand acres in the 0:08:21.556 --> 0:08:27.356 United States and also in Sweden and France, and we 0:08:27.396 --> 0:08:32.596 already have over fifty collaborators on six continents. I think 0:08:32.676 --> 0:08:37.876 fifteen countries are represented working in this realm collaborating with 0:08:37.996 --> 0:08:43.356 the Land Institute. There's work in Canada, in Argentina. So 0:08:43.436 --> 0:08:47.436 we're really trying to in the next few years solidify 0:08:47.556 --> 0:08:52.956 that international work because what we're trying to accommodate is 0:08:52.996 --> 0:08:57.236 the seventy percent of ag lands covered in annuals, and 0:08:57.316 --> 0:09:00.076 we're trying to create perennials for all of the grain 0:09:00.156 --> 0:09:03.756 producing regions of the world. Hearing you talk about it 0:09:03.796 --> 0:09:07.116 reminds me of the story of Keenowa, which was also 0:09:07.756 --> 0:09:10.676 a grain that was you know, widely used in Peru 0:09:10.756 --> 0:09:14.596 and was important to the United States and became very fashionable. 0:09:15.036 --> 0:09:18.756 What are the chances that that kurnza could become fashionable too? 0:09:18.876 --> 0:09:20.716 Is there a have you all thought about that? Have 0:09:20.796 --> 0:09:25.116 you tried to promote it? We actually hope that it 0:09:25.196 --> 0:09:29.596 doesn't remain a sort of specialty crop like kin wat 0:09:29.836 --> 0:09:33.356 is that is produced on a more mass scale and 0:09:33.476 --> 0:09:38.756 become sort of a regular ingredient in common everyday products 0:09:38.876 --> 0:09:43.396 like cheerios or in your local bakery would have a 0:09:43.436 --> 0:09:47.356 regular run of kerns of bread or the regular beer 0:09:47.476 --> 0:09:50.836 run from the from the local brewery. We can't have 0:09:50.916 --> 0:09:54.276 the impacts that we want to have on the soils 0:09:54.276 --> 0:09:56.636 of the world if it's limited to sort of a 0:09:56.756 --> 0:10:02.476 specialty crop niche market. What if kurnza was to become 0:10:02.556 --> 0:10:07.636 widespread and available everywhere and how would that change the world? 0:10:07.676 --> 0:10:09.436 I mean, how would that change the atmosph fear? What 0:10:09.436 --> 0:10:12.636 would the impact of that be huge? We will be 0:10:12.716 --> 0:10:19.076 seeing more carbon sequestration, will be seeing less toxic chemical inputs, 0:10:19.516 --> 0:10:23.796 will be feeding the regions around production as well as 0:10:23.796 --> 0:10:27.716 the global food supply chain. Regenera of agriculture is one 0:10:27.716 --> 0:10:30.876 of the few areas that can potentially solve ten percent 0:10:30.956 --> 0:10:36.156 of climate change, and perennial grains specifically on the landscape 0:10:36.196 --> 0:10:39.316 offer one of the most promising avenues for carbon sequestration 0:10:39.476 --> 0:10:43.396 on Earth to date. So I envision that when kurnza 0:10:43.556 --> 0:10:47.436 and other perennial grains like it find their way onto 0:10:47.636 --> 0:10:52.596 the annual production grain production lands of today, which is 0:10:52.636 --> 0:10:56.916 about seventy percent of our total agricultural lands, will also 0:10:57.316 --> 0:11:03.436 be stewarding the livelihoods of farmers and farm workers because 0:11:03.436 --> 0:11:06.756 that we're not requiring the sort of them to maintain 0:11:07.436 --> 0:11:11.316 the economic readmill of farming, which is leading to all 0:11:11.396 --> 0:11:15.996 kinds of consolidation and other issues. So it's a pretty 0:11:16.676 --> 0:11:20.796 utopian vision in my mind if we can get perennials 0:11:20.836 --> 0:11:24.996 on the landscape broadly and globally. Rachel, let me back 0:11:25.116 --> 0:11:28.596 up a little and ask you something a little more basic, namely, 0:11:29.596 --> 0:11:33.636 what drew you to this story, to this issue, why 0:11:33.756 --> 0:11:36.836 perennial crops. How did you originally get interested in farming? 0:11:36.876 --> 0:11:38.636 I mean, was it through a love of food? Was 0:11:38.676 --> 0:11:42.036 it through was it through the landscape? I was born 0:11:42.076 --> 0:11:46.636 and raised in central Kansas, and my father was sort 0:11:46.676 --> 0:11:52.076 of a novice environmentalist and had a prairie land that 0:11:52.156 --> 0:11:54.756 I helped him restore when I was young, So I 0:11:54.796 --> 0:11:58.996 always had a sort of environmental ethic, and I grew 0:11:59.076 --> 0:12:03.396 up in the prairie among these perennial grasslands. People often 0:12:03.556 --> 0:12:06.756 vacation to the beach, and they talk about the ocean 0:12:06.796 --> 0:12:10.156 as the rape vista with all of the life teeming 0:12:10.316 --> 0:12:14.836 under the surface. And my father uses the same metaphor 0:12:14.956 --> 0:12:18.396 for the prairie, which has been described more often as 0:12:18.476 --> 0:12:22.196 sort of a barren wasteland. But he is of the mind, 0:12:22.236 --> 0:12:25.956 and I think it's relevant to this regenerative agriculture soil 0:12:26.076 --> 0:12:30.996 story that there's so much life on the prairie especially, 0:12:31.036 --> 0:12:33.676 and even in the winter, you just can't see it 0:12:33.716 --> 0:12:36.676 because it's below ground. And so you have these waves 0:12:36.836 --> 0:12:40.436 of prairie grasses blowing like waves on the ocean, and 0:12:40.516 --> 0:12:44.036 below them is teeming with life. So I do remember 0:12:44.076 --> 0:12:46.716 as a kid walking and the grasses are quite tall, 0:12:47.076 --> 0:12:50.036 and walking and feeling that the grasses kind of have 0:12:50.036 --> 0:12:54.756 a feathery tip, which is nice, a nice tactile sort 0:12:54.756 --> 0:12:58.876 of connection to that deep underground as you walk, walk, 0:12:58.996 --> 0:13:02.916 or hike through the prairie. People listening to you don't 0:13:02.956 --> 0:13:05.796 work at the Land Institute, they might not live in Kansas. 0:13:06.396 --> 0:13:09.196 What can they do, nevertheless, to support this vision, this 0:13:09.436 --> 0:13:13.716 idea of regenerative agriculture, an idea that you know, we 0:13:13.716 --> 0:13:16.556 can have a more natural form of food production. What 0:13:16.676 --> 0:13:20.236 can ordinary people do to support that? Simply learning and 0:13:20.276 --> 0:13:23.356 then advocating for what you learn is a great way 0:13:23.476 --> 0:13:27.156 to participate. Go to the Land Institute's website read more. 0:13:27.516 --> 0:13:30.316 There's all kinds of book projects. Draw Down has all 0:13:30.396 --> 0:13:35.076 kinds of information about what's called carbon farming. Eat perennially. 0:13:35.396 --> 0:13:38.276 There are perennial things that you could eat now, can 0:13:38.556 --> 0:13:43.476 you name a few for us? Almonds, tree crops. There 0:13:43.476 --> 0:13:49.556 are some perennial vegetables, avocados, asparagus, and the list goes on. 0:13:50.716 --> 0:13:55.236 This idea of diverse perennial grain production is the best 0:13:55.276 --> 0:13:59.956 technology we know of today to get our agricultural production 0:14:00.796 --> 0:14:05.036 functioning as close as possible to the natural systems that 0:14:05.116 --> 0:14:08.716 came before it and built the soil upon which we eat. 0:14:09.436 --> 0:14:13.476 One final question, you know, I understand why this is 0:14:13.596 --> 0:14:18.636 ecologically more sustainable. Is it economically sustainable? Should there be 0:14:18.676 --> 0:14:21.356 subsidies for this kind of agriculture? Do you need them 0:14:21.676 --> 0:14:26.476 in the near term? I think that our entire agricultural 0:14:26.556 --> 0:14:31.716 subsidies program should turn towards more regenerative practices to incentivize 0:14:32.916 --> 0:14:36.436 as a sort of turning of the Titanic from facing 0:14:36.436 --> 0:14:40.716 an annual paradigm to facing a perennial one. My vision 0:14:40.716 --> 0:14:44.196 of the future over the long term, we will not 0:14:44.396 --> 0:14:48.676 need to subsidize agriculture because it will be self sustaining 0:14:48.716 --> 0:14:55.236 in a really beautiful and ecological way. Rachel Strower is 0:14:55.316 --> 0:14:58.476 acting President of the Land Institute. Be sure to check 0:14:58.476 --> 0:15:01.796 out our show notes to learn more about regenerative agriculture 0:15:02.436 --> 0:15:05.156 and here it's Solvable. We're wishing you a restorative and 0:15:05.236 --> 0:15:08.756 regenerative holiday season. We'll be back with more in the 0:15:08.756 --> 0:15:11.476 new y year. Until then, if you had a favorite 0:15:11.516 --> 0:15:14.836 episode this past season, consider sharing it with a friend. 0:15:15.796 --> 0:15:19.396 Solvable is produced by Camille Baptista and this is Camille's 0:15:19.476 --> 0:15:22.916 last week was Solvable. We'll miss your terrific work, Camille. 0:15:23.356 --> 0:15:27.356 The senior producer of Solvable is Jocelyn Frank. Katherine Girardeau 0:15:27.436 --> 0:15:31.116 is our managing producer. Mia Lobell is our executive producer. 0:15:31.556 --> 0:15:34.396 We're also saying goodbye this week to our research intern, 0:15:34.516 --> 0:15:37.716 Kobe Guildford. Kobe, it's been great to have your help 0:15:37.756 --> 0:15:43.236 this semester special thanks to Carly Migliori, Kadija Holland, Eric Sandler, 0:15:43.276 --> 0:15:45.796 and Heather Fame. I'm Jacob Weisberg.