1 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:07,920 Speaker 1: Hi, this is Annie, and you're listening to stuff I've 2 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 1: never told you. As we mentioned in our part one 3 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: episode on tabletop gaming with Tracy V. Wilson, we were 4 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: going to do a follow up on tabletop gaming development, 5 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: and here is that episode, and Tracy put me in 6 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: touch with our guest today, tabletop game developer Nicole. Hi. Nicole, Hi, Annie, 7 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:44,520 Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us today. Yeah, thanks 8 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 1: for having me. Could you tell us a little bit 9 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:52,920 Speaker 1: about yourself? Sure? So. I am one half of the 10 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:56,280 Speaker 1: game development team Cardboard Fortress Games. Um, it's me and 11 00:00:56,320 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: my husband. We made Resistor and Lasers and um a 12 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: game called Atari Atari cine Feed, which is a game 13 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 1: based on the old arcade game which is pretty funny. 14 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: Um and uh yeah, we have like a ton of 15 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 1: other games that are in development right now. But um yeah, 16 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:17,840 Speaker 1: I don't know what else to say. I'm like, uh, 17 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:20,400 Speaker 1: and during the day, I am a research analyst. I 18 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 1: don't know if that's interesting, of course it is. I 19 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:27,759 Speaker 1: love I love research. I'm such a research nerd. How 20 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 1: did you get into tabletop game design? So? Um, gosh, 21 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:36,679 Speaker 1: about nine years ago and like two thousand, I started 22 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: writing video game reviews and through that I got involved 23 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 1: in the local video game development scene. Um, I live 24 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 1: in Philadelphia and there were way more video game developers 25 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 1: than I could have even imagined. And we ended up 26 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 1: starting like a little group that met once a month, 27 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 1: and then that turned into like a weekly game dev 28 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:00,040 Speaker 1: meeting kind of thing. Was called Philly DEEV Knight and 29 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: my husband and I we had we started dating in 30 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 1: and we would go to these meetings and there would 31 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 1: be game jams. Do you know what a game jam is? Idea, 32 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 1: but I would love if you could explain it. Sure, sure, sure, 33 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:15,800 Speaker 1: So game jam is just everybody basically has the same 34 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:18,519 Speaker 1: topic or the same general idea to work from, and 35 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: you have a set amount of time to make a game. 36 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 1: So ours was we have twenty four hours to make 37 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:26,919 Speaker 1: a game, and the theme was picking Oasis song title 38 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:30,639 Speaker 1: and make a game out of it, right, And I 39 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 1: was like, Wow, that doesn't sound interesting, And then I 40 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:34,520 Speaker 1: looked up Oasis song titles and I was like, oh 41 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:38,679 Speaker 1: my god, these are so bizarre. So my husband and 42 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:41,239 Speaker 1: I were like, well, we can't make a video game, 43 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 1: but let's make a board game because we love playing 44 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 1: board games. So we're like, why don't we just make 45 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:47,080 Speaker 1: a board game, and we ended up making a board 46 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 1: game that won the jam, and that is like where 47 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: it kind of all started. We ended up like figuring 48 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 1: out how to actually make the game and then putting 49 00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 1: it on Kickstarter, and then we learned how to work 50 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:01,239 Speaker 1: with publishers and that that was kind of like the 51 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: spark that started at all. May I ask what Oasis 52 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: song title you went with? Sure, roll It Over was 53 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 1: the name of this song title, and that, Um, yeah, 54 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 1: So the game is, um, it's called Resistant. It's like 55 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:18,640 Speaker 1: there's red lines blue lines or red and blue lines 56 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 1: on each card, and each card is double sided and 57 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: there's a different image on each side and you're trying 58 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 1: to like connect your lines to go across words. So 59 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:29,359 Speaker 1: if I was the red player, I would try to 60 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 1: get like a full red line going all the way 61 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:33,920 Speaker 1: across the board. And Anthony, my husband, was like, oh, 62 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 1: we should make a game where we should use the 63 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: title roll it Over and use a game where you 64 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 1: have to like flip cards over and you're using both 65 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 1: sides of the card. So we ended up not keeping 66 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 1: the title, but that was the song. Um. Could you 67 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 1: describe more in depth the what goes into making a game? UM, well, 68 00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 1: I'm just very curious and I yeah, that's your sure, sure, sure, 69 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 1: um We've had um there there's like a big divide 70 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 1: in the industry where it's like, well do you work 71 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: with theme first with mechanics first? And I feel like 72 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 1: we have kind of done both. Um. Like obviously with Resistor, 73 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 1: we had like a theme and a mechanic sort of 74 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:19,840 Speaker 1: at the same time. The mechanic came person then we 75 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 1: ended up adding the theme because we were like, well, 76 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: what can we put on this? We put you know, 77 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 1: trains on this, connecting train lines or and we were 78 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:30,280 Speaker 1: like what about you know, computer circuits, and we're like, yeah, 79 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:34,360 Speaker 1: it could be like war games and that that was 80 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 1: really funny because we were like, let's do war games 81 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 1: at old eighties movie and then we turned the TV 82 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:38,920 Speaker 1: on and it was on TV and we were like, well, 83 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 1: if that's a sign. But for the most part, it's 84 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 1: you know, Anthony and I will kind of like go 85 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:47,280 Speaker 1: back and forth about an idea, and then if we 86 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 1: I think the idea is like viable, then we'll kind 87 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 1: of like start making it physically, like we'll cut pieces out, 88 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:57,599 Speaker 1: or we'll just like you know, drawn on index cards 89 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 1: or and over the last five six year as we 90 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:04,720 Speaker 1: have gotten so many different prototyping tools, like we have 91 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 1: you know, we bought blank cards, and we have all 92 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 1: different kinds of dice and like we've cannibalized old games 93 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 1: for pieces. So once we kind of play it a 94 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:19,839 Speaker 1: few times, that can kind of show us like whether 95 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:21,840 Speaker 1: or not we should keep going, whether we should hone it. 96 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: And it's a little bit tough because Anthony's a graphic designer, 97 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 1: so he also wants to make the prototypes like look 98 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 1: really beautiful right away. You know, if he makes a 99 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 1: lot of cards and they look beautiful and take to 100 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 1: make them and then you know, one major thing is 101 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:40,360 Speaker 1: wrong that's on each card. You know, he doesn't want 102 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 1: to just cross it out if you had made them 103 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: on like index cards or blank cards and you could 104 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 1: just cross it out and you know, resleeve it. So 105 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 1: a lot of people will use um, you know, they'll 106 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 1: use the bare minimum pieces. They'll use index cards or 107 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 1: regular cards, and their intent is to get the mechanics 108 00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 1: down and pitch it to a publisher and then the 109 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:02,480 Speaker 1: publisher will take care of everything else. So it's kind 110 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 1: of different for everybody. Some people go into it thinking 111 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 1: like I'm working on this game. I start with an idea, 112 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 1: then I make the physical prototype, and then I'm going 113 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 1: to kind of be doing everything myself and making it 114 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: look a certain way. And other people are like, no, 115 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:18,840 Speaker 1: I just want to do the most basic prototyping I can, 116 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 1: and then I'm going to offload it to somebody else 117 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 1: who's going to do all the other stuff. Is that 118 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 1: sort of the normal pipeline or the traditional pipeline? I 119 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:29,840 Speaker 1: guess like you would design a game and maybe have 120 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:32,600 Speaker 1: a prototype and then you would show it to a 121 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 1: publisher and try to get them to to buy it 122 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:38,360 Speaker 1: and to make it. Or is there like a lot 123 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 1: more kickstarter type things now and self publishing. I think 124 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 1: that a lot of people are self publishing, and I 125 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: think a lot of people are self publishing because they 126 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: aren't sure how to get to a publisher. Doesn't I 127 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 1: don't know if that makes sense. But we I mean, 128 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 1: now that we've been doing this for so long, I 129 00:06:57,279 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 1: think that a lot of the people that we know 130 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 1: are death only the kind of people who pitched to publishers, 131 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: and we've become those people because we don't want to 132 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:08,839 Speaker 1: do a kickstarter. We don't want to have to worry about, 133 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 1: you know, distribution and having all those games in our 134 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: house and going to the post office and all that stuff, 135 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: which is really overwhelming to me. Yeah. Yeah, I think 136 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 1: I think part of it is um some people just 137 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 1: want to do the game development part and and and 138 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 1: once you get to a certain point, you become privileged 139 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: enough that you can just do that because you have 140 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 1: set up the groundwork to have pipelines to publishers and 141 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 1: stuff like that and other people, you know. I think 142 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 1: I think kickstarter is often how people start, and then 143 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 1: once they kind of get to know the industry, they 144 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 1: can decide if they want to try to pursue working 145 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 1: with a publisher which also has its own you know, 146 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 1: hosts of pros and cons, because you're going to get 147 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 1: less money and you're going to have less control over 148 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 1: how the game is going to look and stuff like that. Yeah. 149 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: As someone who's like dipped my toe in the world 150 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 1: of publishing books, it sounds like a very similar similar thing. 151 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 1: I mentioned on this show before that I am in 152 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 1: the process of preparing to run a D and D 153 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 1: campaign for the first time. I love it. I'm so nervous, 154 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 1: but I'm like making props and I'm doing all this stuff, 155 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 1: and one of my favorite and most frightening aspects of it, 156 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:34,080 Speaker 1: honestly is it's almost like psychology in a way because 157 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 1: you're having to think of what will people probably do 158 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 1: and then they probably won't do that anyway, But oh, 159 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:43,679 Speaker 1: they won't do it. They won't do it. They're not 160 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 1: going to do it. I know, and I'm so nervous. 161 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 1: But it's just this aspect of planning the game that 162 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:54,319 Speaker 1: I didn't really anticipate. Are there things like that that 163 00:08:54,440 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 1: you found in tabletop game development? Oh? Man, yeah, absolutely. 164 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 1: With running a D and D game, it's it's so 165 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 1: much about improvisation, and like there's so little that you 166 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 1: can like, like, it's about improvisation and adaptation, but there's 167 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 1: so little that you can then apply to another game 168 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 1: because it's like all you can do is hone your 169 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:20,840 Speaker 1: ability to improvise. I don't know if that makes sense, 170 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 1: but with with tabletop game development, um part of it 171 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 1: is watching other people player game and learning what works 172 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 1: and what doesn't work by watching them player game. Like 173 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 1: you could have an intention and then if people consistently 174 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 1: read a rule in a different way than you intended it, 175 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:43,959 Speaker 1: then you either need to rewrite that rule, or you 176 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 1: need to figure out a way to adapt to how 177 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 1: they're playing it because that's more intuitive to them. That 178 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 1: makes sense. Did you ever is this something you ever 179 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:56,839 Speaker 1: imagined you would be doing? No? Now, I when I 180 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 1: was younger, I thought that I would be right books. 181 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 1: Like I thought I was going to write a book, 182 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 1: you know. That was my like goal in high school, 183 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 1: in college, and then when I got really into reviewing 184 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:12,079 Speaker 1: for video games, I did, like start to dabble in. 185 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 1: I did some writing for video games, I did some 186 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 1: editing for video games, and then I was super hype 187 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:19,199 Speaker 1: about that because I that's another passion that I've had 188 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 1: is is video games. I love playing them and being 189 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 1: in those worlds. But I never imagined that I would 190 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:27,839 Speaker 1: be making board games. It's it blows me away on 191 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 1: a pretty regular basis. Do you have any any favorite 192 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 1: tabletop games or any of that inspired you? Yeah? Absolutely. 193 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 1: The first The first one that really inspired my husband 194 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 1: and I is pandemic or familiar with pandemic. I love pandemic. 195 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: It's so great. Right, have you say pandemic legacy? No? 196 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 1: But I got it after speaking to Chasey and she 197 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 1: told me she was a part of the like test 198 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 1: t like, Okay, I'm going to go out right after 199 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 1: this and buy it perfect. Yeah, Pandemic Legacy is super good. 200 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 1: It's fun. We're we're part way in the season two. 201 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 1: The only fans hard about it is getting a group 202 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 1: together to consistently play it as adult because everybody is 203 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 1: an adult with important, stupid crap to do. But yeah, 204 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:14,679 Speaker 1: we we love Pandemic. Um. That actually inspired us. We 205 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 1: we've been working on a co op game for as 206 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 1: long as we've been together almost um that we've been 207 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 1: like honing and we're hoping to like find a home 208 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 1: for it. UM. Recently, I really love Azul. Have you 209 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 1: played as Oh my god, it's beautiful. It's this beautiful 210 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 1: game where you're like making a mosaic with these tiles 211 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:39,599 Speaker 1: and it's very tactile. The pieces are really pleasing to 212 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:43,600 Speaker 1: like touch, and the math of it is really fun. 213 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 1: Like either there's the strategy in it and there's a 214 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 1: certain level of like blocking other people out for being 215 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 1: able to do what they do. And it's the first 216 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: time I played it, I joke that like my computer 217 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:58,560 Speaker 1: brain turned on because I was just like, oh my god, 218 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 1: I know exactly what I need to do and how 219 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: to do it, and I can set up like multiple 220 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 1: moves even if somebody takes the piece I need. And 221 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 1: like when the game was over, I like, you know, 222 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 1: booted down and was like what happens? Did I win? What? Where? 223 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 1: Where was I for the last half an hour? Um? 224 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:16,599 Speaker 1: And king Domino is like that also. I feel like 225 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: king Domino is less abstract, but it's another one of 226 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:21,679 Speaker 1: those games where it's just oh, it's just really like, 227 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:25,839 Speaker 1: it's really satisfying. So those are two games I like 228 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 1: right now. And there's another game called Avocado Smash just yeah. 229 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 1: The container it comes and looks like an avocado. The 230 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 1: cards feel like avocado skin. They're like lately Yeah, they 231 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 1: have like an interesting texture to it. And it's a 232 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 1: dexterity game. It's just a game where when when something happens, 233 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:46,599 Speaker 1: everybody has to slap the cards in the middle and 234 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:48,559 Speaker 1: the last person to slap gets all the cards and 235 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:50,680 Speaker 1: you're trying to get rid of all of your cards 236 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 1: and it is so fun. It is like it has 237 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:57,839 Speaker 1: it's like a ten dollar game and it comes in 238 00:12:57,880 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: an avocado ins by company that I've never heard of. 239 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 1: Then it has no business being as fun as it is. 240 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:08,679 Speaker 1: I love it. I'm definitely gonna check that out. Cool. Yeah. Um. 241 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 1: So for for listeners that are wondering, well, why why 242 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 1: are we talking about this on a show about feminism, 243 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 1: we kind of touched on it in our episode previous 244 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:23,719 Speaker 1: with Tracy about how women in tabletop gaming for a 245 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:26,679 Speaker 1: long time haven't been represented and the same is true 246 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:31,679 Speaker 1: for women developers in the world of tabletop gaming. And 247 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:34,599 Speaker 1: we will get into that after a quick break for 248 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: word from our sponsor, and we're back, Thank you sponsor. So, um, 249 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: we do have some numbers for you, a quick numbers 250 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:54,199 Speaker 1: run down, and some of these will sound familiar, but 251 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:57,719 Speaker 1: I think they're worth restating for this conversation. Like we 252 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 1: mentioned in our previous tabletop gaming, so the numbers of 253 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 1: players and thus the profits from tabletop gaming are going up, 254 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 1: and we included this number in that episode. The best 255 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 1: selling board games in sixteen were all designed by men. 256 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 1: In the nineteen nominees of Game of the Year awards 257 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 1: between sixteen, none of them identified as women. And if 258 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 1: we look at gen Con, one of the largest and 259 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 1: oldest gaming conventions sixteens, gen Con featured fifty of speakers 260 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 1: that were women, but inn there was literally only one 261 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 1: and there's still so much work to be done because 262 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 1: don't forget in one of gen CON's panels called writing 263 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 1: women Friendly Comic Characters, did not include any panelists that 264 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 1: identified as women, until ensuing backlash. Have you ever been 265 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 1: to gen Con? I have, yes. I We've gone four 266 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 1: I think the last four or five years. What's it like, Oh, yeah, 267 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 1: it's a it's a lot of white men. Yeah, it's 268 00:14:56,720 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 1: a lot of white guys. Um. And it's know, it's 269 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 1: a lot of people who don't understand why women need 270 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 1: to be more represented. And that's frustrating, that's super frustrating. 271 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 1: You know. I'm in such a bubble of people who 272 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 1: are more progressive that going to events like that can 273 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 1: be really jarring. Um. And that article that that you're quoting, Um, 274 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 1: I read it and I was completely blown away by 275 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 1: the numbers. I'm not I wouldn't say I'm surprised. I 276 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 1: think I'm I think it's just seeing the numbers is 277 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 1: just so overwhelming, you know. And and like I said, 278 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 1: I'm a research analyst by day, so data is my jam. 279 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 1: So I was like, oh my god, this article is 280 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 1: so great. It does such a good deep dive and like, 281 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 1: look at her pie charts, They're so good. But um, yeah, 282 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 1: gen Con is and and one of the things that's 283 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 1: hard about gen Con and going to pack the pin 284 00:15:56,560 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 1: your Kdexpo and other events like that is I often 285 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 1: get asked to be on panels and I get to 286 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 1: the panel and I'm the only woman on the panel, 287 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 1: and that I'm it makes me self conscious because it 288 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 1: makes me wonder if the only reason I've been invited 289 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 1: to the panel is because I'm a woman, and that 290 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 1: makes me feel really like crappy about myself and insecures. 291 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 1: I already have hardcore imposter syndrome even just being there. 292 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 1: And um, we did do a panel at packs some 293 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 1: plugged called, um, you know, women in Gaming, and we 294 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 1: were all white women and afterwards I was like, oh crap, 295 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 1: we're all white women. So you know, it's you know, 296 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 1: places like gen Con, and it's it's just it's just 297 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 1: so hard. It's so hard because they're it's so overwhelmingly male, 298 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: and it's so overwhelmingly the kind of men who are like, 299 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 1: you know, a lot of them don't have a problem 300 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 1: sharing the space with women until women want to have 301 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 1: equal representation and then they have a problem with it. Yeah. 302 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 1: One thing that came out of the conversation that Tracy 303 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 1: and I had about this is we both kind of, 304 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 1: like you were saying, shared that in our experiences it 305 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:15,679 Speaker 1: is a much more like progressive, diverse space. But um, 306 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:18,680 Speaker 1: Tracy was saying, because I've never been to something like 307 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:22,240 Speaker 1: gen Con, Um, I've been a dragon Comma that's very different, 308 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:27,360 Speaker 1: but something like that, where that's when she would notice like, oh, 309 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 1: it's mostly white dudes around, Um, so many white dudes. Yeah, 310 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:38,200 Speaker 1: like a c of them. I did read something because 311 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 1: I'm also a language nerd um, and I read something 312 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 1: about how they were more women manning the voos at 313 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:48,679 Speaker 1: gen Con and how they were talking about like changing 314 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 1: the language around that. I just thought that was interesting. Interesting. Yeah, yeah, 315 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:57,640 Speaker 1: I haven't really considered that before. But yeah, I suppose 316 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:01,200 Speaker 1: Gary guy Nact, the creator of Dungeons and Jagons, once 317 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:04,680 Speaker 1: told Icon Magazine quote, gaming in general is a male thing. 318 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 1: Everybody who's tried to design a game to interest a 319 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:09,959 Speaker 1: large female audience has failed, And I think that has 320 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 1: to do with the different thinking processes of men and women, 321 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:20,920 Speaker 1: which is just not correct. Right now, there's so many 322 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 1: things wrong. I'm not even sure where to tackle. Um. 323 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 1: Have you, and I'm going to assume the answer to jest, 324 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 1: but have you experienced sexism in the world of tabletop 325 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 1: gaming or other obstacles related to it? Yeah, I've UM. 326 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 1: When I the first time I went to b g 327 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:44,159 Speaker 1: G Con, which is the convention centered around dank geek, um, 328 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 1: I had. I had not really, I had not really 329 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:51,920 Speaker 1: worked many conventions before that. I had. I had gone 330 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 1: to conventions, I had gone as pressed to do interviews 331 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 1: about video games, but I hadn't like been an exhibitor 332 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:03,120 Speaker 1: until you know, we until we published Resistor. So when 333 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:05,160 Speaker 1: I was at b g G, I had a guy 334 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 1: say to me, our company is called Cardboard Fortress Games, 335 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:12,440 Speaker 1: so we wear like little cardboard boxes on our heads 336 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 1: just to just to be funny. And um, I like 337 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 1: put the box on to do a demo and this 338 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 1: guy was like, you were cuter without the box, and 339 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 1: I was just like too stunned to say anything. So 340 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:27,359 Speaker 1: I was just like he like, you know, I didn't 341 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 1: know what to say. And I had another guy recently, 342 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 1: I had a guy. UM. In late I went to 343 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 1: an event at one of our local board game stores, 344 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:39,639 Speaker 1: and he was a friend of the owner, and you know, 345 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:41,440 Speaker 1: he was talking to a friend of mine who I 346 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:43,199 Speaker 1: also happen to be talking to, and he was like, oh, 347 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:45,879 Speaker 1: you make games. Like he turned like he didn't realize 348 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:47,440 Speaker 1: that I was one of the game designers at the event. 349 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:49,120 Speaker 1: He was like, oh, you make games. I was like yeah, 350 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:52,159 Speaker 1: and he was like, oh, well, how do you know 351 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:54,400 Speaker 1: how do you make games? And I opened my mouth 352 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:56,119 Speaker 1: to answer and he said, oh, never mind, if you 353 00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:59,680 Speaker 1: can do them, I'm sure anyone can. Oh yeah. And 354 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 1: I it was just like cool, bye forever, and just 355 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:05,680 Speaker 1: like walked away. And my friend also walked away because 356 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 1: he was like, that was really crappy. Yes, that was awful. Yeah, 357 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:13,399 Speaker 1: it's just and and it's and it's you know, so 358 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:17,400 Speaker 1: many predominantly white men will say to you like, well, 359 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 1: why didn't you just say something? Why didn't you just 360 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 1: tell them that you felt uncomfortab Why don't you just 361 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 1: say no? And it's like you have no concept of 362 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:27,880 Speaker 1: how it feels in the moment, like you feel panicked, 363 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 1: like you you you certainly aren't going to come up 364 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 1: with something witty, and you certain you certainly aren't gonna 365 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 1: be able to say something that doesn't sound angry, and 366 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 1: you know, twenty minutes later you're like, I should have 367 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 1: said this, but you know there and there's also that 368 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:47,119 Speaker 1: like fear of them getting mad and yelling at you, 369 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 1: you know, or or like starting a scene. So you know, 370 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:55,200 Speaker 1: it's you know, it's it's because of the people that 371 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 1: I hang out with. I would say that it's been. 372 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 1: It hasn't been as bad as it would have been, 373 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:04,680 Speaker 1: but I've definitely experienced it, like I haven't had. You know, 374 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:06,920 Speaker 1: there there have been friends that I know who have 375 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 1: been harassed. I think in that article she mentioned the 376 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 1: thing that have net origins where someone was sexually harassed, 377 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 1: and that girl still gets harrassed on Twitter constantly, like 378 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 1: every day now, and it's like seven months later, six 379 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 1: months later, so you know, it's it's really out of control. Yeah, 380 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:34,399 Speaker 1: And kind of off of that, because we did talk 381 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 1: about in the episode of Tracy about um sexual harassment 382 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:43,200 Speaker 1: that's experienced by by women in this world. But as 383 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 1: I said myself, I have had a pretty good experience 384 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 1: in the tabletop gaming world. But I do think it's 385 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 1: interesting that for two things. One, for a very long 386 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 1: time I just assumed that they were not for me. 387 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 1: I remember recoiling almost violently when someone asked me, like, 388 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 1: do you like tabletop games? I'm like, oh no, um right, 389 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 1: And the second is I really love UM. I love 390 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 1: playing tabletop games. I have like three different groups that 391 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 1: do it now pretty regularly, but occasionally, because like you said, 392 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:26,159 Speaker 1: I we're all adults and we have other responsibilities and 393 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 1: playing tabletop games, um, sometimes we don't get to meet 394 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 1: as often as I would like. And I am a 395 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 1: a single woman with like less obligations to other people 396 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,160 Speaker 1: than a lot of people I'm playing with. So I'll 397 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 1: see an event for like, dropped by this bar and 398 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:49,880 Speaker 1: play D and D And even without having these experiences myself, 399 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 1: I just I guess I had internalized that if I 400 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 1: go to something like that, I'm worried that I would 401 00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:59,920 Speaker 1: be harassed or looked down upon or just even treated differently, 402 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 1: and that I would it wouldn't be a fun experience 403 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 1: for me, or that people wouldn't be patient for me 404 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 1: if it's a new game, and things like that that 405 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 1: I just didn't until I put thought into it, I 406 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 1: didn't realize that I had those thoughts inside of me. Yeah, 407 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 1: I I totally get it. You know I met I 408 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 1: met my husband because we there was a Wizard of 409 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:27,359 Speaker 1: the Coast was doing a thing for Fourth Edition D 410 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 1: and D where you could play something called Encounters, and 411 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:31,520 Speaker 1: it was a weekly event at local board game stores 412 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:34,439 Speaker 1: where you could just play a single encounter from a module. 413 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:37,359 Speaker 1: So it's like eased you into the rules and how 414 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 1: to play it. And that's how I met Anthony was 415 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:42,879 Speaker 1: I went to an Encounters and he was there and 416 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 1: we ended up, you know, dating. But I had a 417 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:51,880 Speaker 1: lot I felt a lot of trepidation because I don't 418 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 1: do a voice during D and D, and I don't 419 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 1: necessarily get super into the character, and I am not 420 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 1: great improvising all the time, and sometimes I'm not you know, 421 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 1: on so I don't feel like I can come up 422 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 1: with funny, clever ideas, and I feel like everybody's just 423 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 1: going to think I'm dumb, and I don't always know 424 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:15,119 Speaker 1: all the rules. So it I mean, it took playing 425 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 1: constantly and I'm I'm still on over that. You know, 426 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,520 Speaker 1: we play. We have a monthly game of Fourth Edition 427 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:23,159 Speaker 1: that we play, and then we also have a monthly 428 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 1: Fifth Edition game that we play that gets recorded and 429 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 1: goes on YouTube. I can't tell you. I can't tell 430 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 1: you how like that. I get nervous every single time 431 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:35,920 Speaker 1: we record because I made the mistake of reading the 432 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 1: comments one time, and they hate me, like, I mean, 433 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 1: like we've grown on them. My husband I play um 434 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 1: Goblin Juggalos, so we're goblos. So we are obnoxious. I 435 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 1: mean we are really intensely out of control. And the 436 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 1: first episode I made the mistake of reading some of 437 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 1: the comments, and but we're like we hate her. And 438 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 1: I was like, why do you hate me? We're both 439 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 1: being goblet We're both doing this, like why do you 440 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,119 Speaker 1: hate me? And I was like, I'm never reading the 441 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:14,640 Speaker 1: comments again. I'm just never gonna do it strongly against it. Yeah. 442 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 1: But but the other thing is, you know we had 443 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 1: played when you think I first started dating, we played 444 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: so many role playing games that we got to a 445 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 1: point where we started playing Shadow Run fifth Edition. I 446 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 1: don't know if you're familiar with Shadow Run at all. 447 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:32,640 Speaker 1: It is complicated. It has a very complicated rule set, 448 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,159 Speaker 1: and the fifth edition of it was no exception. It 449 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,680 Speaker 1: was very complicated. And I literally sat down at the 450 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:41,400 Speaker 1: table and said, hey, guys, I have learned so many 451 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 1: new RPGs in the last couple of months that I 452 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 1: am not even going to bother reading the book because 453 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 1: I don't want to learn another one, and you guys 454 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 1: all keep complaining about it, which makes me realize that 455 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 1: it's not an enjoyable thing to learn the rules for. 456 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:55,239 Speaker 1: So I'm just going to tell you what I want 457 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:57,640 Speaker 1: to do. You guys tell me how many dice to roll, 458 00:25:57,720 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 1: and I'm just going to role play and have a 459 00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:00,639 Speaker 1: good time. And you know, it was one of the 460 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 1: best times I've had role playing because I didn't put 461 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 1: so much thought into like, oh, well, how can I 462 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 1: min max my turn and how can I be the 463 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:13,920 Speaker 1: best character possible. I was like, no, I don't want 464 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:15,960 Speaker 1: to do that. I just want to play some asps 465 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,359 Speaker 1: and have a good time. And it was fun and 466 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 1: and I feel like letting go of some of my 467 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 1: self consciousness has been really hard but has made it 468 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 1: easier to play. And I also I have the same 469 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 1: feeling that you do about playing new games with new people, 470 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:33,680 Speaker 1: new board games with new people, because you feel like 471 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:36,920 Speaker 1: I always have that panic of what if I don't 472 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 1: get it? Like what if I just what if I 473 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,880 Speaker 1: just don't rock it? And you're really doing yourself a disservice, 474 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,760 Speaker 1: Like you're very smart. You do all kinds of stuff 475 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:49,880 Speaker 1: every single day. Like we like, we do stuff that's 476 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 1: way harder than learning a board game every day, and 477 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 1: we don't have the same kind of anxiety. And it's 478 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,919 Speaker 1: because we have that fear of like, oh no, somebody 479 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 1: might think, like somebody might judge me, and I you know, 480 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 1: I have taken to when it's my turn the first time, 481 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 1: if I'm playing a new game, especially with new people, 482 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:09,680 Speaker 1: my first turn, I'll be like, okay, so just to 483 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,639 Speaker 1: be clear, these are my options. And then I'll state 484 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 1: the options that I have, and I'll be like, but 485 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 1: and then I can do this right. And then if 486 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:20,119 Speaker 1: I really don't if there's something I really don't get, 487 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 1: I'll be like, but what's the point of me doing 488 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,199 Speaker 1: this thing? So I like try to make them explain 489 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 1: it to me while repeating everything they say so that 490 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,240 Speaker 1: I'll remember it. I don't know if that's helpful to 491 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 1: other people, but no, it sounds like a good strategy 492 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 1: to me. Yeah, it helps like grind it into my brain. Yeah. 493 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 1: And I've found that for certain games, the rules can 494 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:47,240 Speaker 1: look so overwhelming and they might be, but once you 495 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:52,440 Speaker 1: start playing it, it doesn't feel as overwhelming. Yeah, And 496 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,680 Speaker 1: you had mentioned earlier about like the impront we talked 497 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:57,879 Speaker 1: about like the improvisation for like prepping for D and 498 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 1: D and stuff like that. And I think that when 499 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 1: you write rules, part of the problem is that sometimes 500 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 1: you get sucked into a black hole of well, how 501 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,159 Speaker 1: dumb is the player? And then you end up you 502 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 1: really end up over writing the rules because you're like, 503 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:15,720 Speaker 1: do I have to tell them how to draw a card? 504 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: Do I have to tell them exactly where to discard it? Well, 505 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 1: somebody one time asked me this question, do I have 506 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:22,640 Speaker 1: to address it in the rule book? And that ends 507 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,359 Speaker 1: up bloating the rule book? But people just get really nervous, 508 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:32,239 Speaker 1: you know, Yeah, absolutely, It's kind of to me it's 509 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 1: kind of a frustrating thing because tabletop gaming is what's 510 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 1: supposed to be very fun and for me has been, 511 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 1: but there was all of this stress around it, and 512 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 1: occasionally there still is. And it's like this fun activity 513 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 1: that has legit health benefits. I mean, on top of 514 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 1: like it helps you be more creative, it helps the 515 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 1: problem solving, it helps with all this stuff. It helps 516 00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 1: distress people to think that people are being frightened away 517 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 1: or intimidated by this fun thing that can be can 518 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 1: mean so much. Makes me angry. Yeah, it's depressing. It's 519 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,520 Speaker 1: it's the same thing with video games. And she had 520 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 1: what is her is her name Trudy and that who 521 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 1: wrote that article, Tanya Tanya. Sorry, she had mentioned that 522 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:26,720 Speaker 1: that happens with female gamers who play, you know, online 523 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 1: video games, that they like try to like pretend that 524 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 1: they're a guy, or they just stopped playing it, or 525 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 1: they blame themselves for being harassed, and that's so sad. Oh. Absolutely, 526 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:42,960 Speaker 1: I've told the story on this show before. I stopped 527 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 1: playing online games because it became it took something that 528 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 1: was fun and it became a very stressful, intimidating experience. 529 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 1: And this was like middle school. Yeah, yeah, um, are 530 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 1: there what other problems you see in this world of 531 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 1: tailtop gaming? And how do you think we could make 532 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 1: it better? Sure? One of the most interesting things about 533 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:16,000 Speaker 1: that article was that she talked about the art on 534 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 1: the covers and how aliens and animals are more represented 535 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 1: than women on those covers, and I was like, shut up. 536 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 1: I was so mad about that. And I think you 537 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 1: know when when she wrote the part about one Deck Dungeon, 538 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 1: how one Deck Dungeon is like prominently female. How one 539 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 1: guy was like, when you come out with a male version, 540 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 1: let me know and I'll play it. Like that makes 541 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,720 Speaker 1: me so mad. I think that. I think that. You know, 542 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 1: we talked about like, well, it needs to be more 543 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 1: diverse and need to be more inclusive. White men need 544 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 1: to be educated, like like white men need to understand 545 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 1: like and even you know, I talk about that my 546 00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 1: groups are progressive and that's true. But you know, my 547 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 1: husband the other day said, well, I didn't really like 548 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,520 Speaker 1: Disney movies when I was a kid because I wasn't 549 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:08,240 Speaker 1: represented in them because he you know, he's not a princess. 550 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 1: And then we started watching Shira and he's like, well, 551 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 1: I don't really like this show because it's almost all women, 552 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 1: so why would I want to watch it? And it's 553 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 1: just like, I just I just don't know what to 554 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 1: say to that, because I'm like, okay, but welcome to 555 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 1: my whole life where almost every single thing I've consumed 556 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:31,240 Speaker 1: has been you know, male, and it it didn't it 557 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 1: didn't bother me until the last couple of years because 558 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 1: when I was a kid, I was like well, I 559 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 1: just want to play. I just want to play video games. 560 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:40,840 Speaker 1: I don't care that every single game I'm playing I'm 561 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 1: playing as a guy. I just want to play video games. 562 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 1: I love video games, you know. And you know I 563 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 1: don't mind that I'm not representing TV shows. And you know, 564 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:49,960 Speaker 1: you and I had talked about, well, it's because of 565 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 1: internalized misogyny, you know. Not only do I not mind, 566 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 1: I kind of don't. I kind of don't like women. 567 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:58,240 Speaker 1: I kind of don't like myself. I kind of don't 568 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,240 Speaker 1: want to see myself up there, you know, right, And 569 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 1: you know it's it's only recently that I'm like, well, no, 570 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:06,280 Speaker 1: that would be you know, that would be really cool 571 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:08,880 Speaker 1: to see myself represented, and it would be really cool 572 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 1: to have that experience. And I think that white men 573 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:17,479 Speaker 1: view it not as they They view it as something's 574 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:23,800 Speaker 1: being taken away from them instead of, oh, well this 575 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 1: two percent has you know, women on the horse. I'm 576 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 1: not going to play because I I don't see myself there. 577 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 1: But yeah, can you for one second put yourself into 578 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,360 Speaker 1: a woman's shoes and realize that all the games that 579 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 1: you love, like we we aren't reflected in those I 580 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,200 Speaker 1: don't know and it's so funny because I'm like, the 581 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:41,120 Speaker 1: most important thing is to cater to white men and 582 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 1: educate them. But like, you know, there's only so many 583 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 1: times that you can be like, well, you know, we 584 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:49,600 Speaker 1: should make more covers. We don't al we should have 585 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:51,680 Speaker 1: more women. It's like, but the white men are still 586 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 1: going to fight against it, and I just don't know 587 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:56,480 Speaker 1: how to get to them. I don't know how to 588 00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:58,320 Speaker 1: I don't know how to be like, hey, I'm gonna 589 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 1: mail all of you a copy of them? Doesn't this 590 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 1: for everybody? By Bell Hooks? And can you please read it? 591 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:07,800 Speaker 1: There we go right, like everybody has. We're all in 592 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:11,040 Speaker 1: a book club. Now let's all read this. Yeah, get 593 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 1: a kickstarter going. Yeah. You judge on a lot of 594 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:19,040 Speaker 1: stuff that I resonated with me. I was definitely one 595 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,680 Speaker 1: of those I'm not like other girls people for a 596 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 1: long time and I look back and I cringe, um, same, 597 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,480 Speaker 1: same yeah. And I have friends that still are And 598 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 1: it bothers me so much because it's almost like what 599 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:35,600 Speaker 1: they're saying doesn't make sense with other things they're saying 600 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:39,240 Speaker 1: about themselves personally because they are a woman, like, well 601 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:43,080 Speaker 1: women aren't They're just generally not as good at the X. 602 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 1: But I am right, it doesn't. It doesn't track UM 603 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,720 Speaker 1: And I totally agree that it's kind of this fear 604 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 1: of change, of things becoming more equal, and I I 605 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 1: personally only I think that we're just gonna have to 606 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,600 Speaker 1: We're just gonna have to keep making more diverse games. 607 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,359 Speaker 1: And sorry about it if it makes you nervous, Yeah, 608 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 1: they just they're just so threatened. And I'm just like, 609 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,759 Speaker 1: but can you introspect and look at that feeling of 610 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:19,800 Speaker 1: being friended and like explain it? Can you explain it? 611 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:24,480 Speaker 1: And it's it's all tied into Trump being elected and 612 00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:28,080 Speaker 1: we could just talk about this garbage forever, but like 613 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:31,279 Speaker 1: it's super hard to see it as a as a 614 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,719 Speaker 1: general resurgence. It almost feels like in the world, you know, 615 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:39,280 Speaker 1: but so like to still it down to just tabletop gaming, 616 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:43,480 Speaker 1: it just feels like a microcosm of everything else that's 617 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:48,160 Speaker 1: going on. You know. I totally agree, and that's we're 618 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 1: talking about tabletop gaming that we're talking about so much more. Um. 619 00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:58,120 Speaker 1: If we if we look kind of at some numbers 620 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 1: from that study that we've been mentioning in this it 621 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:04,680 Speaker 1: was a very recent day. It came out in December 622 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:10,239 Speaker 1: eighteen and it was called Analog Game Studies by Tanya Pabudha, 623 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:12,600 Speaker 1: and it was a sweeping look at the top two 624 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:15,480 Speaker 1: hundred games on Board Game Geek, which is correct me 625 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:17,279 Speaker 1: if I'm wrong, but it's sort of like I am dB, 626 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:21,080 Speaker 1: but for board games. Yes, yeah, absolutely, um and it 627 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,560 Speaker 1: it found that generally a majority of board game designers 628 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 1: are white men, only two point four percent were white women, 629 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:29,919 Speaker 1: and only a little of a four percent were non 630 00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:34,200 Speaker 1: white men. Of the two hundred games, only seven were 631 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:37,920 Speaker 1: designed solely or jointly by women, and that number is 632 00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:43,879 Speaker 1: twelve for men of colors. So those are very stark numbers. Yeah, 633 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:50,200 Speaker 1: it's crazy. Game designer Nicki Valens was the sole female 634 00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:53,440 Speaker 1: designer for the twenty second ranked game Mansions of Madness 635 00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:56,880 Speaker 1: Second Edition from S and Valence was a co designer 636 00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:01,800 Speaker 1: for the number forty seven game Eldritch Horror from Peggy 637 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:04,960 Speaker 1: Chastinet was the code designer for the legacy game t 638 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:10,320 Speaker 1: I M. E. Stories Time Stories from and Suzanne Goldberg 639 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,280 Speaker 1: was a co designer for the Sherleck Holmes Consulting detective 640 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:18,040 Speaker 1: The Thames Murders. In other cases and numbers sixty five 641 00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:21,319 Speaker 1: on the b g G Top two hundred, the one 642 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:24,640 Speaker 1: seventy nine ranked Exit the Game, the Abandoned cabin from 643 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:30,240 Speaker 1: and one ranked Village from eleven. We're both jointly designed 644 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 1: by Inca Brand and Flaminia Brazini was jointly responsible for 645 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:39,279 Speaker 1: the design of the forty two ranked Lorenzo Il Magnifico 646 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:46,000 Speaker 1: from So that's just not a lot of diversity women 647 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:51,560 Speaker 1: represented in those the top two hundred games. Um. When 648 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:53,960 Speaker 1: it comes to illustrators, the numbers are slightly better, but 649 00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:56,759 Speaker 1: only slightly. Around ten percent of illustrators of these top 650 00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,879 Speaker 1: two hundred games where white women and around seven percent 651 00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:04,440 Speaker 1: or women of color. So we've got a long ways 652 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:10,040 Speaker 1: to go to make things more equal. Seriously. Yeah. Um, 653 00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:12,719 Speaker 1: So we have a little bit more for you, some 654 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:16,359 Speaker 1: some advice for making these things more equal. But first 655 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,040 Speaker 1: we have one more ad for our word from our 656 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:32,040 Speaker 1: sponsor m H and we're back, Thank you, sponsor. So, 657 00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:36,719 Speaker 1: one thing that I wanted to ask you about, Nicole was, um, 658 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:39,840 Speaker 1: what what about you? What do you have any projects 659 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:43,640 Speaker 1: on the horizon that you are excited about? Yes? So, uh, 660 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:46,440 Speaker 1: Anthony and I are working on a game that is 661 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:50,319 Speaker 1: tentatively at the moment entitled Dance Hall mash Up. It's 662 00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:54,719 Speaker 1: a game about dancing. It's not about dancing, well, it's 663 00:37:54,760 --> 00:38:00,880 Speaker 1: about dancing quickly. UM. We a friend of our, Jason Tagmier, 664 00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:04,080 Speaker 1: has UM. He has a Patreon for his board game development. 665 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:06,759 Speaker 1: He basically puts out UM wallet games. They're like small 666 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:09,080 Speaker 1: games that are eighteen cards. They come in a little wallet. 667 00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:11,800 Speaker 1: They're all like uniformly the same size. But he was 668 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,359 Speaker 1: also doing something on his Patreon where he was doing 669 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,880 Speaker 1: postcard games. So the first year it was Cult Films 670 00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:20,960 Speaker 1: and you had to have the rules on the postcard 671 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:23,600 Speaker 1: and then you would play. The components would be things 672 00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:25,440 Speaker 1: that you could easily find in the house. And then 673 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,360 Speaker 1: the next year it was One Hit Wonders, So we 674 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:32,680 Speaker 1: did one for Spinny right around m HM, and the 675 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:35,800 Speaker 1: one Hit Wonders year was play everything with the postcard. 676 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:38,479 Speaker 1: So each corner of the postcard was a different dance 677 00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:41,799 Speaker 1: move from the Spinny right around video, and one person 678 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,680 Speaker 1: would basically spin the postcard onto the table and then 679 00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:46,800 Speaker 1: whichever corner was facing them, they would yell out that 680 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,040 Speaker 1: dance move, and everybody did the dance moves as fast 681 00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:52,680 Speaker 1: as possible and then slap the postcard and the last 682 00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:54,279 Speaker 1: person slap would be out. It was it was a 683 00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:56,120 Speaker 1: game that was for like a bunch of people, and 684 00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:58,000 Speaker 1: then we were like, you know what, we could make 685 00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:02,200 Speaker 1: this but with lots of dance moves. So yeah, we 686 00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:05,920 Speaker 1: spent an entire weekend just watching YouTube videos about how 687 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:09,400 Speaker 1: to describe how to do dances and then made a 688 00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:12,120 Speaker 1: ton of cards and we pitched it to some publishers 689 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:16,200 Speaker 1: in November, and we have two publishers who are really 690 00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:18,920 Speaker 1: seriously interested in it, so I'm hoping that is the 691 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:22,080 Speaker 1: next game that we have come out. We've actually, uh 692 00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:24,600 Speaker 1: so my husband was diagnosed with cancer last year, so 693 00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:27,359 Speaker 1: we've had like we had kind of a year where 694 00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:29,640 Speaker 1: we didn't do anything, and I think we're both feeling 695 00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:32,560 Speaker 1: the pressure of, you know, we have to get back 696 00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:35,000 Speaker 1: into it. We have to get games out because we 697 00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:38,080 Speaker 1: published Resistor and then the next year we published two games. 698 00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:40,760 Speaker 1: So we were like, oh, next year we'll published three games, 699 00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:45,320 Speaker 1: and then life was like like I'm sorry to hear that, 700 00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:48,680 Speaker 1: so thank you. So yeah, so we're just like we 701 00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:51,960 Speaker 1: have a ton of prototypes that you know, we've been 702 00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:54,480 Speaker 1: shopping around and this is where it comes into play 703 00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:57,440 Speaker 1: about pitching the publishers. When we went to pack some 704 00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:00,440 Speaker 1: plugged in December. You know, we had five games, we 705 00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:03,680 Speaker 1: have five prototypes that we were just pitching to any 706 00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:05,600 Speaker 1: publisher we can get an empoyment with. We were just like, hey, 707 00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:07,920 Speaker 1: we sit down with you cool five games, and we 708 00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:10,279 Speaker 1: had the pitch down to like ten minutes. We really 709 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:14,880 Speaker 1: here you go two minutes a game. So we we 710 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:18,520 Speaker 1: have some some pretty promising leads there. Oh that sounds 711 00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:22,560 Speaker 1: so fun. Thank you. I'm a big I love any 712 00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:24,440 Speaker 1: kind of game that gets you up and moving, and 713 00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:26,320 Speaker 1: I love dancing, and I'm terrible at it, so this 714 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:30,279 Speaker 1: sounds perfect for me. Yeah, I also love all those 715 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,080 Speaker 1: things that I'm also terrible at dancing, so I totally 716 00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:37,880 Speaker 1: get it. Well, keep me posted about that. Oh absolutely So. 717 00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:43,320 Speaker 1: For for anyone who's listening, any any woman who's interested 718 00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:46,440 Speaker 1: in getting involved in in the world of designing a 719 00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:50,480 Speaker 1: tabletop game, UM, do you have any advice or tips 720 00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:56,920 Speaker 1: for them? Yeah? Um, for there's so many layers to this. Um. 721 00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:58,560 Speaker 1: If you, I mean, if you've already got a game 722 00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:01,520 Speaker 1: and you want to try to you know, get it played, 723 00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:05,080 Speaker 1: get get your prototype tested. Um, there's something called Unpubed, 724 00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:08,520 Speaker 1: the Unpublished Game Network. It's unpubed dot net. UM. If 725 00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:10,160 Speaker 1: you go there and you make an account and you 726 00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:12,839 Speaker 1: put your games into there, you can kind of keep checked. 727 00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:14,719 Speaker 1: They have events all over the world, so they have 728 00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:18,120 Speaker 1: these things called unpubbed minis, and basically you go to 729 00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:21,000 Speaker 1: a local board game store and if you're you registered 730 00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:22,239 Speaker 1: for it, you go to a local board game store 731 00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:24,680 Speaker 1: and then you just show your prototype and and you know, 732 00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:27,080 Speaker 1: people come play your prototype, give your feedback. They have 733 00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:30,560 Speaker 1: feedback forms you can even print out. UM. There's also 734 00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:34,440 Speaker 1: if you're on the East coast, there's an event called Metatopia, 735 00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:37,840 Speaker 1: which is in North Jersey, and that is literally just 736 00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:42,160 Speaker 1: four days of play testing prototypes and it's very heavily scheduled. 737 00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:45,040 Speaker 1: If you you know, say you're like, okay, I want 738 00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:47,680 Speaker 1: to have five play tests of my game, you can 739 00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:50,800 Speaker 1: actually request one play test to just be designers, so 740 00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:52,719 Speaker 1: then you can get really good feedback because it's only 741 00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:55,600 Speaker 1: designers playing your game. There are also, you know, there's 742 00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:58,960 Speaker 1: there's all kinds of playtesting communities. We have one in 743 00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:02,759 Speaker 1: Philadelphia that is based on a community in Boston. It's 744 00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:06,440 Speaker 1: called the Gamemaker's Guild. And there we're basically we're basically 745 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:10,239 Speaker 1: their first franchise is what I like to joke. So, 746 00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:14,719 Speaker 1: so we have Gamemaker's Guild Philadelphia, there's one in Connecticut. Um, 747 00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:18,000 Speaker 1: there's also, uh, if you're in you know, the Northwest, 748 00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:21,440 Speaker 1: there's play Tests Northwest, which I think is in Seattle. Um, 749 00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:25,080 Speaker 1: Emma Larkins runs the play test group in Seattle. Also, 750 00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:29,440 Speaker 1: um gosh, there's just so there's also like proto Speel, 751 00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,560 Speaker 1: which is another thing that's sort of like unpubed. And 752 00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:34,920 Speaker 1: then there's you know events like Packs the Penny or 753 00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:38,400 Speaker 1: kid Expo. There's there's one that's dedicated solely to board games, 754 00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:42,360 Speaker 1: and Unpubed usually gets a booth at these events, so 755 00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:46,040 Speaker 1: you can register for unpubbed at these events, which is 756 00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:51,360 Speaker 1: really cool. Um. There's also gen Con and um, I 757 00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:55,920 Speaker 1: think d g G Con. They have this really intense 758 00:42:56,040 --> 00:43:00,200 Speaker 1: thing that's called publisher speed dating, which is yeah, it's 759 00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:03,919 Speaker 1: as horrifying as it sounds. Um, you have like five 760 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:05,680 Speaker 1: to ten minutes to pitch your game to a publisher 761 00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:09,080 Speaker 1: and then the publishers just switched tables. So, um, it's 762 00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,360 Speaker 1: really good practice to get your pitch down to you know, 763 00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:16,680 Speaker 1: ten minutes UM. On a on a more granular level, 764 00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:21,839 Speaker 1: if you're looking for ways to actually physically make your prototype. UM, 765 00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:26,160 Speaker 1: there's a site called the Game Crafter and they have 766 00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:29,439 Speaker 1: basically everything you could ever need to make a game, 767 00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:32,080 Speaker 1: so you can actually, you know, upload all your art, 768 00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:36,080 Speaker 1: order all the pieces, and then order one single copy 769 00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:39,000 Speaker 1: of your game. It won't be cheap, but it'll give 770 00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:42,800 Speaker 1: you a really nice looking, professional looking prototype that you 771 00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:46,960 Speaker 1: can then bring to events like this UM and like, honestly, 772 00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:50,600 Speaker 1: if you're a person listening and you're like, oh my god, 773 00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:53,040 Speaker 1: I live in the middle of nowhere, or oh my god, 774 00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:55,200 Speaker 1: I'm way too much of an introvert to try to 775 00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:58,479 Speaker 1: get into this stuff without knowing someone, I tell people 776 00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:01,840 Speaker 1: all the time whenever I'm on panels, like please please 777 00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:04,120 Speaker 1: email me, please reach out to me. I'm happy to 778 00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:07,800 Speaker 1: like find you someone connect you with someone you know. 779 00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:11,440 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't do like mentorships or anything, but 780 00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:14,279 Speaker 1: I feel like basically what I'm doing is kind of 781 00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:16,520 Speaker 1: like a mentorship is just not officially called that. UM. 782 00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:21,680 Speaker 1: There's also a group called board Game Broads on Facebook, 783 00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:27,480 Speaker 1: so if you they are actually trying to run a 784 00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:32,560 Speaker 1: specific mentorship program. So if people really want to, you know, 785 00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:37,880 Speaker 1: have something that is more targeted towards specific help that 786 00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:41,520 Speaker 1: they need. That's a great place to start. Those are 787 00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:49,799 Speaker 1: all great resources. Thank you. Are there any um developers 788 00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:52,680 Speaker 1: that are games that you're excited for coming out in 789 00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:56,640 Speaker 1: the future. I made a list of lots of women 790 00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:59,799 Speaker 1: in board games, but I don't know of anything that's 791 00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:04,600 Speaker 1: ming out soon. Suzanne Sinsley, who is half of Cardboard Edison, 792 00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:08,560 Speaker 1: She's got a game called Ceylon c E y l 793 00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:12,279 Speaker 1: O N that I think premiered at Essen, which is 794 00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:15,120 Speaker 1: a big, huge board game event in Germany. And I 795 00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:18,000 Speaker 1: don't think that one's available state side because my husband 796 00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:20,479 Speaker 1: keeps asking me when we can order it. So that's 797 00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:24,000 Speaker 1: that's one game that we're definitely really really really eager 798 00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:26,399 Speaker 1: to get our hands on. Other than salein I don't 799 00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:29,160 Speaker 1: have any specific board games that I'm like super hyped 800 00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:35,600 Speaker 1: to get my hands on. Well you mentioned the list, Yeah, 801 00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:40,120 Speaker 1: I do so. Um. Heather O'Neill and Heather Wilson are 802 00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:44,440 Speaker 1: they're part of Ninth Level Games. Um they have. Ninth 803 00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:47,279 Speaker 1: Level Games is probably most famous for Cobal Date My Baby, 804 00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:51,200 Speaker 1: which is a role playing game, but the two Heathers 805 00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:54,719 Speaker 1: made a game called Schrodinger's Cats, which is like one 806 00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:57,879 Speaker 1: of my favorite party games of all time. And they're 807 00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:01,760 Speaker 1: Heather and Neils working on Pavlov's Dogs, as you can imagine, 808 00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:03,839 Speaker 1: which is going to be another game that they're coming 809 00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:05,640 Speaker 1: out with. They also just came out with a game 810 00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:08,759 Speaker 1: called Maple Party, which is a super fun like little 811 00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:12,400 Speaker 1: party game, co op party game. Bonnie Newbauer is another 812 00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:15,520 Speaker 1: really amazing game designer. She's local to Philadelphia. I don't 813 00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:17,960 Speaker 1: know if she has anything published yet, but I would 814 00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:20,399 Speaker 1: definitely keep an eye out for her because her we've 815 00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:22,440 Speaker 1: played so many of her prototypes that are really excellent. 816 00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:26,040 Speaker 1: Mary Martha for Dan, she made a game called The 817 00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:28,200 Speaker 1: Ultimate clap Back, which is also a lot of fun. 818 00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:31,760 Speaker 1: That one was on Kickstarter. UM. Carol Mertz is another 819 00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:34,680 Speaker 1: great one. She She made a game called Pass the Book, 820 00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:38,440 Speaker 1: which is a game about corporate responsibility, which I pull 821 00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:40,359 Speaker 1: it out sometimes at parties and my friends are like, Nope, 822 00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:41,920 Speaker 1: I'm not at work. You can't make me play that. 823 00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:45,919 Speaker 1: I won't play a game about about asking people about 824 00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:50,959 Speaker 1: their emails. Um. There's another great game called Someone Has Died, 825 00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:53,439 Speaker 1: which is made by a d Slippeck and Liz Roach. 826 00:46:54,400 --> 00:47:00,359 Speaker 1: Um Banana Chan makes RPGs and LARPs. She is absolutely incredible. UM. 827 00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:03,960 Speaker 1: And then for artists, Uh, my friend Bridget in Delicado. 828 00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:06,600 Speaker 1: She was co designer of a game called The Plot Thickens, 829 00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:09,919 Speaker 1: which one one of the Hasbro. Hasbro did a bunch 830 00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:12,520 Speaker 1: of game design contests for a few years and um, 831 00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:15,480 Speaker 1: The Plot Thickens won one of those game contests. She 832 00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:18,879 Speaker 1: does graphic design for a e G and Whiz Kids. 833 00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:23,359 Speaker 1: So she did art for Dungeon Hustle. UM. I can't 834 00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:26,279 Speaker 1: remember any of the other games that she's done art 835 00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:31,440 Speaker 1: for now I feel terrible. UM. And Heather winter Vaughne 836 00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:34,600 Speaker 1: did art for a game called Beneath Nexus and also 837 00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:37,080 Speaker 1: for the game Kids on Bikes, which is an RPG. 838 00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:41,880 Speaker 1: That's that's pretty famous. Um. There's also um Sherry Spirou 839 00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:45,919 Speaker 1: who she's the owner of ad Magic and Breaking Games. 840 00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:48,520 Speaker 1: Ad Magic is one of the biggest board game printers 841 00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:51,480 Speaker 1: in the world and Breaking Games is her publishing arm. 842 00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:57,600 Speaker 1: So she is a badass lady. She's really amazing. There's 843 00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:00,839 Speaker 1: also I have two friends who are a Kickstarter train, 844 00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:05,440 Speaker 1: Garrettano and Anya Combs, who are both just beautiful, wonderful people. Oh, 845 00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:07,879 Speaker 1: and I also had another name on here UM that's 846 00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:13,040 Speaker 1: Sobel who does illustrations for so so, so so many 847 00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:14,480 Speaker 1: board games that are out there right now, so many 848 00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:18,240 Speaker 1: of the any board games. And her artwork is just beautiful. 849 00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:22,920 Speaker 1: She did herbaceous and I forget what else. So everything 850 00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:24,560 Speaker 1: I just said it sounds like Bolks. I'm like, oh, 851 00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:26,080 Speaker 1: her work is great. And then I'm like, here's a 852 00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:29,560 Speaker 1: single game. I believe you. I believe you, I think 853 00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:34,120 Speaker 1: you check out. Yeah, that's one point I would love 854 00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:38,759 Speaker 1: for these episodes, the one that focused on playing and 855 00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:41,400 Speaker 1: now this one in development. Um. At one point I 856 00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:45,480 Speaker 1: would love for listeners to take away who maybe haven't 857 00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:49,359 Speaker 1: had much experience in this world is there's so much 858 00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:52,440 Speaker 1: out there. There's so much variety. And I have a 859 00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:54,400 Speaker 1: group of friends that used to tell me that they 860 00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:59,720 Speaker 1: hated playing tabletop games and they hated a specific type, 861 00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:03,439 Speaker 1: and I've been able to introduce them. They really didn't 862 00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:08,000 Speaker 1: like um competitive games, but I've found co op games 863 00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:09,920 Speaker 1: that they love, and now we play board games almost 864 00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:12,879 Speaker 1: every time we hang out. So there is a lot 865 00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:16,279 Speaker 1: out there. If you don't have if you haven't had 866 00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:18,880 Speaker 1: good experiences, but you've only had a little bit and 867 00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:22,000 Speaker 1: maybe we've convinced you that you might want to give 868 00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:25,759 Speaker 1: it another tribe. There's just so many options. There are 869 00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:29,279 Speaker 1: also like beautiful games that they're not necessarily cooperative, and 870 00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:32,839 Speaker 1: they're they're not competitive, but they're not cooperative. Like uh 871 00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:35,440 Speaker 1: m Al Larkins, who I mentioned earlier, runs a places 872 00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:37,680 Speaker 1: commedia in Seattle. She made a game I think it's 873 00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:41,080 Speaker 1: called and Then We Died and it's a very artistic 874 00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:44,759 Speaker 1: game about like communing with ghosts basically, and you're like 875 00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:47,200 Speaker 1: like putting these cards down and putting words together, and 876 00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:49,239 Speaker 1: you're all building a story together, and that's what the 877 00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:52,279 Speaker 1: plot Pickens is. Also the plot Pickens is you're all 878 00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:56,600 Speaker 1: using keywords and you're each individually making a story, but 879 00:49:56,719 --> 00:49:59,520 Speaker 1: it all works together, and you get bonus points for 880 00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:02,120 Speaker 1: like paying attention to what other people are saying in 881 00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:04,920 Speaker 1: their story and then adding their pieces to your own story. 882 00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:08,279 Speaker 1: So it's like, you know, more narrative driven games. And 883 00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:11,160 Speaker 1: there's also games like you know, Fog of Love and 884 00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:16,120 Speaker 1: and Then We Held Hands, which are emotional experiences. So 885 00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:18,239 Speaker 1: I feel like there's a lot more out there than 886 00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:22,960 Speaker 1: just Risk and Twilight Struggle. Yeah, and this very same 887 00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:25,200 Speaker 1: group of friends that didn't like competitive games. One of 888 00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:28,319 Speaker 1: their favorite games is Dixit, which is competitive, but it's 889 00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:33,319 Speaker 1: kind of like a key competitive. It's a relax competitive 890 00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:38,120 Speaker 1: and it's beautiful. I got my coworkers addicted to telestrations. 891 00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:43,560 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, that's a good one. It's hilarious. Yeah. Um. 892 00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:46,759 Speaker 1: I like to end episodes like this with a very 893 00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:49,960 Speaker 1: simple question, how do you think we could make the 894 00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:54,040 Speaker 1: tabletop gaming world more inclusive, either on the playing side 895 00:50:54,239 --> 00:51:00,440 Speaker 1: or development side. I think that, um, you know, it's 896 00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:03,520 Speaker 1: for for the development side. The advice that I give 897 00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:06,840 Speaker 1: to everyone is if you have an idea, just make it. 898 00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:08,759 Speaker 1: And it's really I know, it's really hard to get 899 00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:11,880 Speaker 1: over that fear, and it's really hard to put yourself 900 00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:14,120 Speaker 1: out there. You know. I I have a lot of 901 00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:15,920 Speaker 1: fear putting myself out there as a game designer and 902 00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:19,800 Speaker 1: as a writer. And what the The thing about the 903 00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:23,560 Speaker 1: community of developers is that there are a lot of 904 00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:27,440 Speaker 1: awesome people and a lot of people pay it forward 905 00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:29,600 Speaker 1: because they wouldn't be here without the help of others. 906 00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:32,359 Speaker 1: Like when we got started, you know, I mentioned Jason 907 00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:35,040 Speaker 1: Tagmire who does wallet games, and he said, oh, talk 908 00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:37,680 Speaker 1: to my friend Christopher Bedell when you go to packs 909 00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:40,680 Speaker 1: and he didn't tell us, you know, talk to my 910 00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:42,760 Speaker 1: friend who's the president of the company that made senseil 911 00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:44,520 Speaker 1: as the multiverse. He just said, talked to my friend 912 00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:46,040 Speaker 1: and Christopher Bdell and then we met him and we 913 00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:49,640 Speaker 1: were like, oh, my god, you're super important. This is intimidating. 914 00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:52,839 Speaker 1: And he was so nice to us. He was like, oh, 915 00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:55,160 Speaker 1: only have five minutes, talked to us for twenty minutes, 916 00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:57,799 Speaker 1: gave us a bunch of advice, like and and now 917 00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:00,879 Speaker 1: we're now we're like friends, you know. And so many 918 00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:04,319 Speaker 1: people were so generous with their time that that's how 919 00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:07,239 Speaker 1: I treat people like That's why I run the Gamemaker's Guild. 920 00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:09,960 Speaker 1: That's why I you know, try to do as much 921 00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:11,600 Speaker 1: as I can. That's why I tell people like, you know, 922 00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:15,120 Speaker 1: please reach out, because I think that that's what people 923 00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:19,080 Speaker 1: need to put themselves out there creatively. And I think 924 00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:21,319 Speaker 1: that goes the same for playing games, because a lot 925 00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:23,760 Speaker 1: of people have that fear, like you said, of playing 926 00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:25,920 Speaker 1: competitive games, and also they have a fear of of 927 00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:29,239 Speaker 1: looking stupid. And I think that if people were a 928 00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:34,200 Speaker 1: little gentler with how they handle people, it would be 929 00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:37,319 Speaker 1: it would be more welcoming. I mean for us, it's 930 00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:41,200 Speaker 1: it's been pretty welcoming, and we've definitely hit some roadbumps. 931 00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:44,160 Speaker 1: But I think that it was people's kindness that that helps. 932 00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:46,080 Speaker 1: Oh God, here I go again. I'm like, if everybody 933 00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:51,680 Speaker 1: would just be more kind Like, Um, it's funny that 934 00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:55,760 Speaker 1: you say that, because I am an extremely competitive person 935 00:52:56,680 --> 00:52:59,920 Speaker 1: and I for this. So I have like three groups 936 00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:03,120 Speaker 1: friends I play games with, and for this group of 937 00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:07,960 Speaker 1: friends that didn't like competitive games, I had to learn 938 00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:11,359 Speaker 1: to chill out a bit when I play with them, 939 00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:13,960 Speaker 1: and they have to dial it back and that's hard. Yeah, 940 00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:18,280 Speaker 1: And it was hard at first, and I still sometimes 941 00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:22,040 Speaker 1: find myself getting angry because I just it's really funny. 942 00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:24,880 Speaker 1: But I'm like, you guys are not being the right 943 00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:28,200 Speaker 1: kind of competitive. But that's my own thing. It's supposed 944 00:53:28,239 --> 00:53:31,279 Speaker 1: to be fun for everyone playing, and it is. I 945 00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:32,719 Speaker 1: have a good time with him. I just that was 946 00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:37,040 Speaker 1: something I had to like look at myself and say, well, 947 00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:40,040 Speaker 1: if I want to enjoy this activity with friends of mine, 948 00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:44,680 Speaker 1: then I need to modify my behavior a little bit. Um. 949 00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:48,480 Speaker 1: So yeah, I would say it's worth looking at your 950 00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:52,839 Speaker 1: own playing habits, At least in my case, I would. 951 00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:55,040 Speaker 1: I would argue, you know, if you have a group 952 00:53:55,080 --> 00:53:56,960 Speaker 1: of friends that won't play games with you, why is 953 00:53:57,040 --> 00:54:00,880 Speaker 1: that right? I think A good think, A good litmus 954 00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:06,320 Speaker 1: test for competitiveness is Bonanza. Have you played Bonanza? No? 955 00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:11,600 Speaker 1: I haven't. Bonanza is one of the best. Like, we 956 00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:15,160 Speaker 1: love Bonanza and we hate the art. We love it 957 00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:17,040 Speaker 1: so much and hate the art so much that Anthony 958 00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:20,640 Speaker 1: one year, for an anniversary gift, made me a copy 959 00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:24,560 Speaker 1: of the game on Gamecraft with cat illustrations. He replaced 960 00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:27,880 Speaker 1: all of the beans in this bean farming game with 961 00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:30,440 Speaker 1: adorable cats. He got like the ratio right, He did 962 00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:32,520 Speaker 1: everything and just printed so that we would play it more. 963 00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:37,880 Speaker 1: But Bonanza is really cutthroat, and it's like it's really 964 00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:42,839 Speaker 1: about like screwing other people over and like you can 965 00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:46,120 Speaker 1: kind of like make alliances, but like you don't have 966 00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:48,759 Speaker 1: to honor them at all. And like if you play 967 00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:50,680 Speaker 1: with a group of people who are all super nice 968 00:54:50,719 --> 00:54:52,520 Speaker 1: to each other and they're like giving each other cards 969 00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:55,120 Speaker 1: and being really kind to each other, like Anthony can't 970 00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:57,759 Speaker 1: stand it. Anthony's like, y'all are playing this game wrong. 971 00:54:59,239 --> 00:55:01,719 Speaker 1: So it's funny. And sometimes I'll play with people who 972 00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:04,000 Speaker 1: are who are like really friendly to each other. And 973 00:55:04,080 --> 00:55:06,200 Speaker 1: those are the kind of people that you don't want 974 00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:07,880 Speaker 1: to play competitive games or you want to play like 975 00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:09,640 Speaker 1: a cooperative game with. But then I'll play it with 976 00:55:09,719 --> 00:55:13,279 Speaker 1: Anthony and his friends and they'll be like, you know, 977 00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:16,839 Speaker 1: I would stab you for a cocoa bean right now, 978 00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:19,640 Speaker 1: and I'm like, cool, that's we have a really good friendship. 979 00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:22,879 Speaker 1: I love this. So it is like it's it's reading 980 00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:24,239 Speaker 1: the room, it's reading the people that you're with, and 981 00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:27,040 Speaker 1: it's and and like you said before, there's just so 982 00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:32,080 Speaker 1: there's such a there's so much rich diversity in mechanics 983 00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:34,400 Speaker 1: now that you don't need to play a game that's 984 00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:40,200 Speaker 1: gonna end friendships. Yes, yes, I would advise against it. 985 00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:43,160 Speaker 1: And I do think that that that's a great point 986 00:55:43,239 --> 00:55:46,600 Speaker 1: reading the room and also just the number one one 987 00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:48,399 Speaker 1: of the rules of the Internet. It's don't be a jerk, 988 00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:52,279 Speaker 1: like I'm competitive, but I'm nice about it, or at 989 00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:55,239 Speaker 1: least like there are certain people that are competitive and 990 00:55:55,360 --> 00:55:58,480 Speaker 1: so mean that I won't play with them, right, And 991 00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:01,520 Speaker 1: those are like the sexist misogynists that I was afraid 992 00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:03,960 Speaker 1: existed in this like D and D world that I 993 00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:08,600 Speaker 1: didn't go to UM that's one thing. That's that's nobody's 994 00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:11,040 Speaker 1: having fun except them, and maybe they're like specific group 995 00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:14,800 Speaker 1: of friends. But um, I do think that there is 996 00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:19,520 Speaker 1: a vast array of game types and mechanics, like you 997 00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:22,840 Speaker 1: were saying, so that you can find a game for 998 00:56:23,080 --> 00:56:28,359 Speaker 1: you and your group, your specific group you're playing with. Yeah, 999 00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:30,359 Speaker 1: my husband will tell you that I'm salty when I lose, 1000 00:56:30,640 --> 00:56:34,520 Speaker 1: and that's that's true. There there are definitely times when 1001 00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:38,719 Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm gonna flip this table. Oh we have 1002 00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:41,640 Speaker 1: Like there was one session of dn D that will 1003 00:56:41,719 --> 00:56:46,080 Speaker 1: not we won't speak about it. It's great, I love it, 1004 00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:50,000 Speaker 1: oh man. In our five game that was like recorded 1005 00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:55,200 Speaker 1: on YouTube, like our Chaos Sorcerer, like that the bar 1006 00:56:55,360 --> 00:56:58,560 Speaker 1: on fire and almost killed me and I was like, yo, Ryan, 1007 00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:00,839 Speaker 1: real life, I will actually kill you in real life 1008 00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:03,279 Speaker 1: and view that again, like don't do that again. And 1009 00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:05,359 Speaker 1: like Anthony was like, you do not want to read 1010 00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:07,279 Speaker 1: the comments on that episode because people got real mad 1011 00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:10,439 Speaker 1: at you. And I was like he almost killed me. Yeah, 1012 00:57:10,719 --> 00:57:12,640 Speaker 1: but come on, but yeah, I got I got, I 1013 00:57:12,719 --> 00:57:15,400 Speaker 1: get extra salty. We don't talk about that one. It's funny. 1014 00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:21,920 Speaker 1: How how invested in really good? Yes? Well, thank you 1015 00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:26,280 Speaker 1: so much for joining us. This has been so lovely. Yeah, 1016 00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:27,840 Speaker 1: thank you so much for having me. This is great. 1017 00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:33,720 Speaker 1: Where can people find you? So? Um on Twitter? Um, 1018 00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:38,440 Speaker 1: I'm CB four on Instagram, It's the whole thing. It's 1019 00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:42,320 Speaker 1: Cardboard Fortress Games at Instagram. And seriously, I I really 1020 00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:44,840 Speaker 1: meant it about people if they wanted to reach out, 1021 00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:48,520 Speaker 1: I'm my email addresses Cardboard Fortress Games at gmail dot com. 1022 00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:51,120 Speaker 1: If you want to talk about you know, how to 1023 00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:55,040 Speaker 1: go to events, how to you know? Even things like help, 1024 00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:56,960 Speaker 1: how do I do a kickstarter? How do I get 1025 00:57:57,000 --> 00:57:59,320 Speaker 1: in touch with you know the press? How do I 1026 00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:02,600 Speaker 1: know do this? If I don't know the answer to 1027 00:58:02,680 --> 00:58:05,000 Speaker 1: your question, there's a really good chance that I know 1028 00:58:05,200 --> 00:58:09,080 Speaker 1: a person who has the answer to your question. Yeah. 1029 00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:14,360 Speaker 1: That is so valuable. So anyone listening that's interested, I 1030 00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:18,440 Speaker 1: would take Nicole up on that. And in the meantime, 1031 00:58:18,520 --> 00:58:22,560 Speaker 1: if if any of you listening are working on games yourself, 1032 00:58:23,240 --> 00:58:25,880 Speaker 1: we would love to hear about it. You can email 1033 00:58:25,960 --> 00:58:28,080 Speaker 1: us at mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com, 1034 00:58:28,560 --> 00:58:30,560 Speaker 1: and you can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff 1035 00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:33,200 Speaker 1: podcast and on Instagram at stuff I've Never told you. 1036 00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:37,200 Speaker 1: Thanks as always to our producer Andrew Howard and thanks 1037 00:58:37,200 --> 00:58:38,240 Speaker 1: to you for listening.