WEBVTT - Hell and Gone Murder Line: The Dermonds 0:00:46.550 --> 0:00:51.960 School of Humans. Helen Gone Murder Line actively investigates cold 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:55.360 case murders in an effort to raise public awareness, invite 0:00:55.400 --> 0:00:58.780 witnesses to come forward, and present evidence that could potentially 0:00:58.820 --> 0:01:02.920 be further investigated by law enforcement. While we value insights 0:01:02.960 --> 0:01:06.140 from family and community members, their statements should not be 0:01:06.180 --> 0:01:09.920 considered evidence and point to the challenges of verifying facts 0:01:10.020 --> 0:01:14.020 inherent in cold cases. We remind listeners that everyone is 0:01:14.080 --> 0:01:17.140 presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. 0:01:17.990 --> 0:01:20.970 Nothing in the podcast is intended to state or imply 0:01:21.030 --> 0:01:23.610 that anyone who has not been convicted of a crime 0:01:24.170 --> 0:01:27.070 is guilty of any wrongdoing. Thanks for listening. 0:01:30.390 --> 0:01:36.170 On Tuesday, May 6, 2014, neighbors of 88-year-old Russell Dermond 0:01:36.290 --> 0:01:40.340 and his 87-year-old wife Shirley drove down the manicured streets 0:01:40.420 --> 0:01:44.810 of Great Waters. an upscale, highly secure gated community in 0:01:44.830 --> 0:01:48.030 the town of Eatonton on Lake Oconee in central Georgia. 0:01:49.310 --> 0:01:52.570 Russell had been a successful executive, and after a lifetime 0:01:52.630 --> 0:01:55.490 of working hard, he and Shirley had retired to the 0:01:55.590 --> 0:01:59.110 area 20 years earlier. Russell and Shirley lived at the 0:01:59.190 --> 0:02:02.790 end of Carolyn Drive, on a cul-de-sac overlooking a peninsula. 0:02:03.550 --> 0:02:06.770 The neighbors were checking on Russell and Shirley because three 0:02:06.810 --> 0:02:09.830 days earlier, the couple had been expected at a Kentucky 0:02:09.870 --> 0:02:14.970 Derby party. but they never showed up. The Dermons were retired, 0:02:15.130 --> 0:02:17.970 socially active, and spent most of their free time playing 0:02:18.010 --> 0:02:20.570 golf and bridge. They weren't the type of people to 0:02:20.610 --> 0:02:24.310 just disappear. But by Tuesday, with no one able to 0:02:24.380 --> 0:02:28.700 reach them, their friends were growing deeply concerned. The neighbors, 0:02:28.920 --> 0:02:31.320 a couple, walked up to the house to take a 0:02:31.340 --> 0:02:35.340 look around. According to the Macon Telegraph, they noticed that 0:02:35.400 --> 0:02:39.020 some newspapers were piled up in the driveway. At some point, 0:02:39.400 --> 0:02:42.920 they stepped into the garage. That's where they found Russell's 0:02:42.980 --> 0:02:46.620 dead body, sandwiched between a Lexus SUV and a Lincoln 0:02:46.660 --> 0:02:51.180 Town Car, according to the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. The neighbors called 0:02:51.180 --> 0:02:55.830 911 at 9.56 a.m. Shirley was nowhere to be seen. 0:02:56.850 --> 0:03:01.050 But Russell's body wasn't the only horrific thing their friends discovered. 0:03:01.990 --> 0:03:06.370 Russell had been decapitated, and his severed head was gone. 0:03:09.010 --> 0:03:11.830 I'm Katherine Townsend. Over the past eight years of making 0:03:11.850 --> 0:03:14.690 my true crime podcast, Hell and Gone, I've learned that 0:03:14.710 --> 0:03:17.130 there is no such thing as a small town where 0:03:17.170 --> 0:03:20.850 murder never happens. I've received hundreds of messages from people 0:03:20.950 --> 0:03:23.570 all around the country asking for help with an unsolved 0:03:23.610 --> 0:03:27.290 murder that's affected them, their families, and their communities. If 0:03:27.400 --> 0:03:29.160 you have a case you'd like me and my team 0:03:29.180 --> 0:03:31.240 to look into, you can reach out to us at 0:03:31.280 --> 0:03:33.160 our Hell and Gone murder line. at 678-744-6145. That's 678-744-6145. 0:03:33.160 --> 0:03:35.890 Or you can send us a message on Instagram at hellandgonepod. 0:03:35.910 --> 0:04:32.890 This is Hell and Gone Murder Lines. This was a 0:04:33.050 --> 0:04:36.730 shockingly brutal crime for a peaceful lakeside community. The first 0:04:36.770 --> 0:04:40.710 homicide reported there in eight years. Putnam County Sheriff Howard 0:04:40.730 --> 0:04:44.390 Sills led the investigation. He was sworn in in 1996, 0:04:44.390 --> 0:04:46.720 and by the way, Ann is still leading it to 0:04:46.750 --> 0:04:51.820 this day. In May of 2014, Sheriff Sills was facing 0:04:51.880 --> 0:04:56.060 a grisly murder scene and a missing wife. Shirley's phone, wallet, 0:04:56.280 --> 0:04:59.340 and car keys were still at the scene. Russell and 0:04:59.420 --> 0:05:02.700 Shirley had been together forever. They met and started dating 0:05:02.740 --> 0:05:05.240 when she was around 13 and he was 12. They 0:05:05.260 --> 0:05:08.470 were married for over 60 years. Russell was a World 0:05:08.510 --> 0:05:11.590 War II Navy veteran from Hackensack, New Jersey, who went 0:05:11.630 --> 0:05:14.390 into business after the war. He worked as an executive 0:05:14.430 --> 0:05:17.430 for a clock company, but ended up owning several successful 0:05:17.490 --> 0:05:22.490 fast food franchises, including Wendy's and Hardee's restaurants. Shirley also 0:05:22.530 --> 0:05:25.590 grew up in New Jersey, but eventually the couple retired 0:05:25.810 --> 0:05:28.850 and moved south to the affluent development at Lake Oconee, 0:05:29.370 --> 0:05:32.810 roughly 70 miles southeast of Atlanta. They had been living 0:05:32.890 --> 0:05:34.010 in the 3,255 square foot home on the lake for 0:05:34.050 --> 0:05:39.040 almost 20 years. and they had been good neighbors and 0:05:39.080 --> 0:05:42.680 were well-liked by everyone. Sheriff Sills has spoken to the 0:05:42.710 --> 0:05:46.790 press several times since May of 2014. He said police 0:05:46.830 --> 0:05:49.290 found zero evidence of anyone who would have had a 0:05:49.350 --> 0:05:53.410 reason to harm either Russell or Shirley. The Dermons had 0:05:53.490 --> 0:05:57.190 four children. Their eldest son, Mark, had died in 2000. 0:05:57.190 --> 0:06:01.350 In 2014, they had two sons who lived in Jacksonville, Florida, 0:06:01.750 --> 0:06:05.250 and a daughter based in Asheville, North Carolina. So Shirley 0:06:05.290 --> 0:06:08.450 and Russell had picked that neighborhood in Georgia because it 0:06:08.470 --> 0:06:10.610 was in the middle of where their kids lived. There 0:06:10.650 --> 0:06:13.050 were all kinds of rumors about who could have done this, 0:06:13.650 --> 0:06:16.930 and it made national headlines, mainly because of the brutal 0:06:16.970 --> 0:06:20.530 method of murder. Local whispers mentioned everyone from the mob 0:06:20.660 --> 0:06:23.960 to a cult, but police said there was no indication 0:06:24.240 --> 0:06:27.360 that either organized crime or some kind of organized religious 0:06:27.400 --> 0:06:30.420 group had any part in what happened to Russell and Shirley. 0:06:31.460 --> 0:06:34.860 Russell was an avid golfer and took daily walks. The 0:06:34.920 --> 0:06:37.520 couple were members of the local country club. Shirley was 0:06:37.580 --> 0:06:39.740 also a member of the Bridge Club in Eatonton, where 0:06:39.760 --> 0:06:43.720 she was active. Great Waters is a planned development built 0:06:43.780 --> 0:06:47.420 entirely around golf and the lake. It's marketed as an 0:06:47.480 --> 0:06:51.060 exclusive domain with a 24-hour guard station. It's the kind 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:54.040 of place that's designed to be difficult to access, with 0:06:54.100 --> 0:06:59.530 initial membership fees ranging from around $ 45, 000 to $ 135, 000. It 0:06:59.610 --> 0:07:03.250 is not the kind of place where strangers wander around unnoticed. 0:07:04.690 --> 0:07:08.510 The Dermons' routines were pretty predictable. Shirley attended a bridge 0:07:08.550 --> 0:07:11.870 game on Thursday, May 1st. Russell was seen around the 0:07:11.890 --> 0:07:14.960 same time at a local Publix grocery store, and there 0:07:14.980 --> 0:07:18.220 were reports placing him near the golf course. Police later 0:07:18.320 --> 0:07:21.700 estimated that Russell had been dead for days. So what 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:27.030 happened and when? Investigators eventually found activity on the Dermons' 0:07:27.050 --> 0:07:31.910 home computer on Friday afternoon, May 2nd. Now, someone else 0:07:32.090 --> 0:07:35.030 could have been inside their home using their machines, But 0:07:35.210 --> 0:07:38.110 from what has been released publicly about the investigation, it 0:07:38.220 --> 0:07:41.020 seems as though police believed that they were at home 0:07:41.180 --> 0:07:44.140 and that they were the ones using their computer. So 0:07:44.320 --> 0:07:48.700 everything seemed pretty normal that weekend. Until Saturday, when they 0:07:48.740 --> 0:07:52.260 missed the derby party, which leaves a somewhat narrow window 0:07:52.300 --> 0:07:56.220 of time between Friday afternoon and Saturday, when the killer struck. 0:07:57.200 --> 0:07:59.540 One of the biggest pieces of evidence that law enforcement 0:07:59.580 --> 0:08:04.490 had was obviously Russell's headless body. Russell's body was found 0:08:04.530 --> 0:08:08.750 in the garage, positioned behind the vehicles. The decapitation was 0:08:08.850 --> 0:08:12.790 so clean and so extreme that investigators initially thought it 0:08:12.910 --> 0:08:16.170 was the cause of death, but the autopsy revealed something different. 0:08:17.130 --> 0:08:21.140 Investigators found gunshot residue on Russell's collar, and Sheriff Sills 0:08:21.160 --> 0:08:23.580 has said he believes that Russell was shot in the 0:08:23.610 --> 0:08:28.660 head before he was decapitated. So removing the head was 0:08:28.780 --> 0:08:31.560 not how Russell was killed. It was done for a 0:08:31.600 --> 0:08:36.630 completely separate reason. perhaps to send a macabre message, or 0:08:36.790 --> 0:08:39.850 perhaps to obscure the forensics so investigators couldn't retrieve the 0:08:39.890 --> 0:08:43.730 bullet for ballistics testing. Which led me to wonder, how 0:08:43.810 --> 0:08:46.280 do death investigators figure out that someone was shot in 0:08:46.290 --> 0:08:49.400 the head if they don't have the head? And how 0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:52.780 do you prove it was a gunshot wound? Pathologists had 0:08:52.800 --> 0:08:55.880 to look closely at Russell's cervical vertebra, the neck bones. 0:08:56.820 --> 0:08:59.910 If a person is decapitated after death, the bone cuts 0:08:59.950 --> 0:09:03.390 show no signs of hemorrhaging or bleeding. because the heart 0:09:03.450 --> 0:09:07.250 has stopped pumping. But there can be clues, even if 0:09:07.290 --> 0:09:11.310 they can't make definitive conclusions about someone being shot. For example, 0:09:11.870 --> 0:09:14.170 experts can look for shattered bone structures at the base 0:09:14.220 --> 0:09:16.680 of the neck that occurred while the victim was still alive. 0:09:18.080 --> 0:09:20.980 We're still not sure exactly what they found, but it 0:09:21.100 --> 0:09:23.520 was enough for the sheriff to state publicly at the 0:09:23.540 --> 0:09:26.530 time that police believed that Russell was shot in the head. 0:09:28.460 --> 0:09:31.640 But the official coroner's report stopped short of listing that 0:09:31.800 --> 0:09:35.260 as a cause of death. The official report listed the 0:09:35.300 --> 0:09:40.180 cause of death as cerebral trauma. And there was one 0:09:40.220 --> 0:09:43.810 more vital piece of physical evidence left behind. A few 0:09:43.840 --> 0:09:47.130 strands of Shirley's hair were found intertwined in a wound 0:09:47.230 --> 0:09:50.510 on Russell's hand. Analysts believe that this was a defensive 0:09:50.530 --> 0:09:53.110 wound and that Russell had been actively trying to fight 0:09:53.150 --> 0:09:56.250 back or to shield his wife from a violent assault 0:09:56.690 --> 0:10:01.930 before he was overpowered. Yet despite the savagery, this didn't 0:10:01.970 --> 0:10:05.530 look like a standard robbery. The house wasn't turned upside down. 0:10:06.130 --> 0:10:08.470 None of their vehicles had been stolen or showed evidence 0:10:08.510 --> 0:10:12.310 of being rifled through. And most crucially, there were no 0:10:12.430 --> 0:10:16.350 signs of anyone ransacking the rooms looking for hidden valuables. 0:10:17.090 --> 0:10:20.030 In fact, according to media reports, there was no sign 0:10:20.050 --> 0:10:23.390 of any valuables being missing at all. They didn't know 0:10:23.440 --> 0:10:26.660 it at the time, but investigators would spend years combing 0:10:26.720 --> 0:10:30.400 through the Dermons' finances, without really finding a single anomaly, 0:10:31.000 --> 0:10:34.590 anything that could help explain what happened. But I need 0:10:34.610 --> 0:10:36.910 to back up. We have to go back to those 0:10:36.990 --> 0:10:40.470 first agonizing days, because then solving Russell's murder was only 0:10:40.530 --> 0:10:44.940 half the battle. Police desperately needed to find Shirley. They 0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:47.040 didn't know if she'd been taken alive or if she 0:10:47.080 --> 0:10:51.080 was being held captive somewhere. Her disappearance injected a frantic 0:10:51.240 --> 0:10:55.660 urgency into the case. Shirley's face was plastered across electronic 0:10:55.680 --> 0:11:00.160 billboards and the FBI poured resources into the search. If 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:03.220 it was a kidnapping... investigators and her family would have 0:11:03.240 --> 0:11:06.760 expected the phone to ring. But there was no ransom call, 0:11:07.450 --> 0:11:12.410 and no one knew. Was she dead or alive? Ten 0:11:12.450 --> 0:11:17.350 days later, on May 16th, everyone got their answer. Two 0:11:17.410 --> 0:11:20.550 fishermen were out on Lake Oconee, several miles from the 0:11:20.570 --> 0:11:24.180 Derman home, and they spotted something floating in the water. 0:11:25.420 --> 0:11:33.950 It was Shirley's body. Shirley Derman's body had been found 0:11:34.250 --> 0:11:37.110 in Lake Oconee, five or six miles from the Derman home. 0:11:38.110 --> 0:11:41.020 Sheriff Sills told the local Fox News station that the 0:11:41.060 --> 0:11:43.900 possibility that a boat was used to transport her body 0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:48.080 added a new element to the investigation. Shirley was fully 0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:51.690 closed and there was no evidence of sexual assault. But 0:11:51.830 --> 0:11:55.230 forensic testing was later able to determine that her death 0:11:55.270 --> 0:11:59.720 had been incredibly violent. Shirley had been struck repeatedly in 0:11:59.740 --> 0:12:03.490 the head with what was described in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, 0:12:03.630 --> 0:12:08.310 or AJC, as a hammer-like object, and eventually she died 0:12:08.350 --> 0:12:11.970 from blunt force trauma. Her killer had tried to ensure 0:12:12.190 --> 0:12:15.230 she would never be found. Whoever took her to the 0:12:15.270 --> 0:12:19.190 lake attached heavy concrete blocks to her body, wrapping a 0:12:19.270 --> 0:12:22.110 cord around her ankles and binding them to the blocks 0:12:22.130 --> 0:12:25.300 to weigh her down. But they made a few mistakes. 0:12:25.810 --> 0:12:27.930 like the fact that the blocks that they attached only 0:12:27.990 --> 0:12:32.290 weighed 60 pounds total. Shirley was 5 feet 2 inches tall, 0:12:32.750 --> 0:12:36.580 according to her missing persons poster, and weighed 148 pounds. 0:12:37.560 --> 0:12:40.940 So this weight was enough to drag her under initially, 0:12:41.520 --> 0:12:46.240 but as decomposition progressed, the water depth and gases caused 0:12:46.300 --> 0:12:49.490 her body to rise to the surface anyway. And this 0:12:49.530 --> 0:12:53.130 discovery changed everything, because the killers seemed to have dealt 0:12:53.150 --> 0:12:58.800 with the two victims completely differently. Russell was shot and 0:12:58.840 --> 0:13:02.020 left in his own garage after being decapitated in what 0:13:02.060 --> 0:13:05.520 Putnam County investigators say was a clinical fashion. As reported 0:13:05.560 --> 0:13:09.750 by the AJC in 2015, Shirley was beaten, taken far away, 0:13:10.310 --> 0:13:13.670 and haphazardly dumped in the depths of the lake. Had 0:13:13.750 --> 0:13:15.890 someone come into the house to rob them and then 0:13:15.930 --> 0:13:18.510 things got out of hand? Police didn't think it was 0:13:18.530 --> 0:13:22.960 that simple. They believed this was a highly coordinated, methodical, 0:13:23.040 --> 0:13:25.880 and complicated attack. And it was only going to get 0:13:25.920 --> 0:13:30.380 more complicated... For years, the public assumed both murders happened 0:13:30.440 --> 0:13:34.490 inside the home. But over time, Sheriff Howard Sills became 0:13:34.550 --> 0:13:38.390 convinced of a different, more chilling sequence of events. Because 0:13:38.410 --> 0:13:42.030 the evidence did not seem to support that theory. Remember, 0:13:42.210 --> 0:13:45.960 Shirley suffered multiple severe blows to the head. An assault 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:50.740 of that magnitude produces significant blood, including cast-off and impact 0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:54.540 staining that stains walls, floors, and ceilings. But the Derman 0:13:54.580 --> 0:13:58.100 house was cleaned. It did not contain the crime scene 0:13:58.140 --> 0:14:00.880 you would expect if Shirley had been beaten to death there. 0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:04.240 There was no mess in the home at all. Other 0:14:04.260 --> 0:14:07.540 than an unmade bed, the house was tiny, and everything 0:14:07.580 --> 0:14:11.550 was in place. Shirley and Russell reportedly always had a 0:14:11.670 --> 0:14:15.050 very clean house, though they did not hire outside help 0:14:15.090 --> 0:14:18.390 to clean. So that single anomaly could have been important. 0:14:19.690 --> 0:14:22.750 Sheriff Sills did several interviews with the AJC and had 0:14:22.790 --> 0:14:26.680 some memorable quotes in that newspaper. In one interview, he said, quote, 0:14:27.340 --> 0:14:31.160 drug-crazed random killers, whether it's the Manson family or bebop 0:14:31.180 --> 0:14:33.930 down the street that's done gone crazy on meth, they 0:14:33.950 --> 0:14:37.890 leave a mess. There's no mess here, end quote. The 0:14:37.950 --> 0:14:41.050 sheriff told the newspaper that police had sprayed basically the 0:14:41.090 --> 0:14:44.010 entire house with luminol, the chemical that reacts with blood 0:14:44.050 --> 0:14:47.910 traces to cause a glow, and nothing lit up, which 0:14:48.010 --> 0:14:49.910 led the sheriff to believe that the murders had happened 0:14:49.950 --> 0:14:53.410 somewhere else, that the house was not the primary crime 0:14:53.450 --> 0:14:57.580 scene for Shirley's murder. Sheriff Sills has said publicly that 0:14:57.700 --> 0:15:02.780 he believes that Shirley was taken from the home alive. So, 0:15:03.360 --> 0:15:07.710 you have Russell shot and decapitated. Shirley is abducted and 0:15:07.750 --> 0:15:11.370 driven or boated away. Somewhere else, she is beaten to death, 0:15:11.770 --> 0:15:14.810 weighed down with cinder blocks, and dumped into the dark 0:15:14.850 --> 0:15:18.090 waters of the lake. And that brings us to the 0:15:18.130 --> 0:15:22.480 lake itself. Police believe that the killer or killers probably 0:15:22.540 --> 0:15:25.850 approached the house by boat. the Derman property had direct 0:15:25.970 --> 0:15:29.750 access to the water and a dock. The lake created 0:15:29.830 --> 0:15:32.590 a perfect backdoor, a route in and out of the 0:15:32.630 --> 0:15:35.790 estate that bypassed the neighborhood security gate and all of 0:15:35.830 --> 0:15:41.090 its cameras entirely. If the killer or killers arrived and 0:15:41.130 --> 0:15:44.500 left by boat, this could explain why no neighbors saw 0:15:44.520 --> 0:15:48.260 an unfamiliar vehicle and why no one witnessed an elderly 0:15:48.320 --> 0:15:53.610 woman being forced into a car or a boat. When 0:15:53.750 --> 0:15:57.540 a crime this horrific occurs, investigators have to look everywhere 0:15:57.580 --> 0:16:00.120 for a motive. They have to dig into the past. 0:16:00.820 --> 0:16:04.040 And the Dermons had a deep, painful tragedy in their 0:16:04.060 --> 0:16:09.590 family history. 14 years before their murders, in the year 2000, 0:16:09.590 --> 0:16:13.010 Russell and Shirley's oldest son, Mark Derman, was shot and killed. 0:16:14.530 --> 0:16:17.370 It happened in Atlanta on his 47th birthday during a 0:16:17.410 --> 0:16:21.510 street-level drug deal involving crack cocaine. Naturally, when the news 0:16:21.550 --> 0:16:25.910 of Russell's decapitation broke, the media immediately jumped on this connection, 0:16:26.630 --> 0:16:29.650 probably because this seemed more like an ordered cartel hit 0:16:30.110 --> 0:16:31.910 and not the type of crime that happens to a 0:16:31.950 --> 0:16:36.220 couple in their 80s that have nine grandchildren. Sheriff Howard 0:16:36.240 --> 0:16:39.420 Sills ordered the old homicide files from the Atlanta Police Department, 0:16:40.000 --> 0:16:43.800 the ones related to Mark Dermott's murder. He also reportedly 0:16:43.840 --> 0:16:47.000 looked at every name, arrest, and line of testimony from 0:16:47.080 --> 0:16:52.800 that 2000 case. The Atlanta investigation found... Mark Derman's murder 0:16:53.100 --> 0:16:56.520 to be a localized, spontaneous robbery during a drug purchase 0:16:56.540 --> 0:17:00.180 gone wrong. The man who pulled the trigger was caught, convicted, 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:03.140 and sentenced to life in prison, where he remained long 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:08.070 after Russell and Shirley were killed. Investigators found absolutely zero 0:17:08.190 --> 0:17:12.650 financial crossover, zero communication logs, and zero evidence linking the 0:17:12.690 --> 0:17:17.270 street-level violence of Mark's death to the hyper-calculated execution of 0:17:17.310 --> 0:17:21.800 his elderly parents over a It was a dead end. 0:17:22.760 --> 0:17:27.170 So if these killings weren't revenge for the past, what 0:17:27.210 --> 0:17:32.210 were they? Sheriff Sills told the AJC that the Derman 0:17:32.230 --> 0:17:37.490 investigation had been a, quote, torturous affair. But he did 0:17:37.550 --> 0:17:40.820 believe that even if straight robbery wasn't the reason they 0:17:40.840 --> 0:17:44.180 were killed, that finances were part of the motive. Sheriff 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:48.040 Sills has publicly stated his main theory. He suspects the 0:17:48.080 --> 0:17:51.650 Dermans were targeted by two or more individuals involved driven 0:17:51.740 --> 0:17:56.240 entirely by financial extortion. The killers likely believed that a 0:17:56.340 --> 0:18:00.300 retired franchise executive living in a lake house kept a 0:18:00.360 --> 0:18:04.080 vast fortune hidden inside the residence. So when the killer 0:18:04.160 --> 0:18:06.400 or killers arrived there, probably in the dead of night, 0:18:07.060 --> 0:18:09.840 they may have been expecting high-end valuables like hidden wall 0:18:09.880 --> 0:18:13.820 safes or offshore bank codes. But Russell and Shirley didn't 0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:17.430 keep gold bars under the floorboards. When the thieves realized 0:18:17.450 --> 0:18:19.490 they weren't going to get the massive payday they envisioned, 0:18:19.850 --> 0:18:24.570 the situation turned lethal. The execution and decapitation may have 0:18:24.590 --> 0:18:27.390 been a brutal tactic to force compliance that went too far. 0:18:28.150 --> 0:18:31.340 Or maybe something went wrong and they realized they had 0:18:31.360 --> 0:18:35.640 to dispose of witnesses. Which brings me to another question 0:18:35.660 --> 0:18:37.540 that doesn't seem to be answered in any of the 0:18:37.580 --> 0:18:41.360 sheriff's public quotes. What were Russell and Shirley wearing at 0:18:41.380 --> 0:18:43.780 the time they were found? Were they in street clothes 0:18:44.300 --> 0:18:47.530 or pajamas? Remember that it was very unlike them to 0:18:47.570 --> 0:18:49.550 have any kind of mess in the house. And there 0:18:49.570 --> 0:18:53.010 was just one bed, their bed, unmade when investigators got there. 0:18:53.890 --> 0:18:56.390 So were they just getting up in the morning or 0:18:56.450 --> 0:18:57.890 were they forced out of bed in the middle of 0:18:57.910 --> 0:19:01.450 the night? And if so, did their killers intend to 0:19:01.490 --> 0:19:05.190 take Russell or both of them somewhere else? Maybe to 0:19:05.250 --> 0:19:08.210 force them to an ATM. And then something went wrong 0:19:08.260 --> 0:19:11.350 in that garage. That's just one of the scenarios that 0:19:11.390 --> 0:19:14.050 I've considered, but we just don't know enough about the 0:19:14.170 --> 0:19:17.140 evidence at the scene to make a definite determination on 0:19:17.160 --> 0:19:21.260 what happened that night. The FBI Atlanta field office also 0:19:21.360 --> 0:19:24.760 tried to track down data from local cell towers, including 0:19:25.180 --> 0:19:29.110 reportedly looking back at the raw digital signatures captured during 0:19:29.150 --> 0:19:33.650 that tight window between Friday afternoon and Saturday morning on 0:19:33.690 --> 0:19:38.010 the first weekend of May 2014. By filtering out the 0:19:38.050 --> 0:19:41.650 digital footprints of the local community, law enforcement was searching 0:19:41.710 --> 0:19:45.150 for any transient cell phones that suddenly popped up near 0:19:45.190 --> 0:19:49.100 the unmonitored waters in the larger Reynolds Plantation area and 0:19:49.130 --> 0:19:52.880 then vanished right as the crime was completed. So far, though, 0:19:53.220 --> 0:19:56.420 the route the killer or killers took has been undetermined, 0:19:57.320 --> 0:20:01.000 at least from what's been stated publicly. Sheriff Sills has 0:20:01.060 --> 0:20:03.790 repeated over the years that he's thought about that route 0:20:03.960 --> 0:20:09.110 a lot. The Dermond house had direct access to the lake. 0:20:09.790 --> 0:20:12.710 This created a route out of the property that could 0:20:12.770 --> 0:20:16.770 bypass the gate leading into the neighborhood. The couple's son, Keith, 0:20:16.870 --> 0:20:20.250 told the AJC in 2014 that he believed the location 0:20:20.270 --> 0:20:23.610 of the crime provided a big clue. He said that 0:20:23.690 --> 0:20:26.650 he believes his parents were targeted because of the home's location, 0:20:27.450 --> 0:20:30.870 at the end of a cul-de-sac, without neighbors nearby. And 0:20:31.150 --> 0:20:34.180 he said something else in that interview. He said, that 0:20:34.220 --> 0:20:36.460 his parents did not have a next-door neighbor at the 0:20:36.500 --> 0:20:40.260 time of their murders. If Shirley was removed by boat, 0:20:40.680 --> 0:20:43.720 that could explain why no one remembered seeing an elderly 0:20:43.780 --> 0:20:46.680 woman being forced into an unfamiliar car or other vehicle. 0:20:47.640 --> 0:20:50.120 It could also explain why her body ended up miles 0:20:50.180 --> 0:20:53.390 away in the lake. But there has never been a 0:20:53.550 --> 0:20:57.780 confirmed suspect boat. No witness came forward and identified one 0:20:57.840 --> 0:21:00.500 vessel as the boat used in the murders. There is 0:21:00.600 --> 0:21:04.600 no known video evidence showing Shirley being transported. And the 0:21:04.640 --> 0:21:09.870 lake itself is big, nearly 20,000 acres, with almost 350 0:21:09.870 --> 0:21:13.230 miles of shoreline. It's busy and it's used constantly, not 0:21:13.270 --> 0:21:15.910 just by residents, but by fishermen and visitors from all over. 0:21:17.130 --> 0:21:19.820 If the killer or killers drove into the Great Waters... 0:21:20.040 --> 0:21:23.140 Investigators now had to sort through everyone who belonged there 0:21:23.180 --> 0:21:26.960 at that time, including everyone who was visiting, everyone working there, 0:21:27.550 --> 0:21:30.270 and a lot of people who may have had legitimate access. 0:21:31.230 --> 0:21:34.110 The fact that this was a gated community, in my opinion, 0:21:34.170 --> 0:21:36.970 made the case sound simpler than it was because it 0:21:37.130 --> 0:21:40.470 actually produced a huge pool of people to eliminate. So 0:21:40.510 --> 0:21:44.710 police wanted to know who actually had access. And investigators 0:21:44.750 --> 0:21:47.190 looked closely at anyone with a reason to be around 0:21:47.210 --> 0:21:51.770 the Dermons or inside the neighborhood. This included neighbors, workers, 0:21:51.890 --> 0:21:56.320 maintenance people, handymen, and people connected to the local golf community. 0:21:57.060 --> 0:22:00.840 Police wondered, was it someone from outside Russell and Shirley's 0:22:00.880 --> 0:22:06.300 neighborhood or inside the neighborhood who targeted them? Whoever killed 0:22:06.360 --> 0:22:10.080 them appeared to know their routine. The killer came to them. 0:22:11.080 --> 0:22:14.590 Russell was attacked inside his own home, and Shirley was 0:22:14.620 --> 0:22:18.310 taken from there. That raises the possibility that whoever did 0:22:18.350 --> 0:22:21.130 it knew where they lived and had some confidence about 0:22:21.170 --> 0:22:27.150 approaching the property. But investigators never publicly established whether the 0:22:27.190 --> 0:22:31.970 Dermans actually knew their killer. They did reportedly go through 0:22:32.010 --> 0:22:35.030 Russell and Shirley's bank accounts, financial records, wills, and everything 0:22:35.070 --> 0:22:37.740 else that left a financial trail. But they couldn't find 0:22:37.920 --> 0:22:40.900 any evidence of them having conflict with anyone and no 0:22:41.100 --> 0:22:45.790 obvious financial reason why anyone would want them dead. Russell 0:22:45.810 --> 0:22:48.290 was successful, but so were a lot of people living 0:22:48.310 --> 0:22:51.630 in that neighborhood. There were a lot of retirees living comfortably, 0:22:52.310 --> 0:22:55.650 and Russell and Shirley were not flashy. Again, we go 0:22:55.710 --> 0:23:00.210 back to why was their house targeted in particular? Yes, 0:23:00.310 --> 0:23:03.130 they were at the end of the cul-de-sac, but the 0:23:03.170 --> 0:23:05.890 sheriff pointed out that if somebody entered the community looking 0:23:05.930 --> 0:23:08.400 for an easy, rich target, there were a lot of 0:23:08.440 --> 0:23:11.590 houses to choose from. And if they were chosen at 0:23:11.630 --> 0:23:13.950 random just because their house was more remote with no 0:23:14.020 --> 0:23:16.820 physically close neighbors at the time, why did the killer 0:23:16.880 --> 0:23:19.740 go through so much effort to dispose of Shirley's body 0:23:19.840 --> 0:23:24.120 and to decapitate Russell? That behavior does seem to suggest 0:23:24.180 --> 0:23:26.980 that the offender was trying to accomplish something, something beyond 0:23:27.040 --> 0:23:31.390 immediate financial gain. We've already talked about the Derman son, Mark. 0:23:32.090 --> 0:23:34.510 What about the rest of Russell and Shirley's extended family? 0:23:35.210 --> 0:23:37.950 Investigators did take a hard look at the three surviving 0:23:37.990 --> 0:23:41.870 children as well. But according to available media reports, the 0:23:41.910 --> 0:23:44.630 Dermen children all drove to the area immediately and talked 0:23:44.650 --> 0:23:47.810 to police. They took polygraphs, which they passed, and they 0:23:47.850 --> 0:23:51.910 cooperated fully with the investigation. It's important to note, none 0:23:51.930 --> 0:23:55.570 of them have ever been identified as suspects. And from 0:23:55.630 --> 0:23:58.910 what Sheriff Sills has said publicly, it appeared as though 0:23:58.990 --> 0:24:02.590 moving Shirley's body would have made the road to inheritance longer, 0:24:02.890 --> 0:24:06.820 not shorter. In an interview quoted in an Unsolved Mysteries transcript, 0:24:07.260 --> 0:24:10.930 Sheriff Sills specifically said, that if Shirley's body had not 0:24:10.970 --> 0:24:13.550 been found, it would have been a long time before 0:24:13.590 --> 0:24:17.400 the estate was settled. I've read the will. The probate 0:24:17.440 --> 0:24:20.980 records are online. Shirley was named as the primary executor 0:24:21.020 --> 0:24:24.260 of Russell's estate and the sole beneficiary, as long as 0:24:24.300 --> 0:24:27.680 she survived him by at least 30 days. But when 0:24:27.750 --> 0:24:31.290 Russell's body was found, Shirley was still missing. And under 0:24:31.330 --> 0:24:34.230 Georgia law at the time, a missing person was not 0:24:34.330 --> 0:24:38.430 automatically presumed dead right away. After four years of continuous absence, 0:24:39.040 --> 0:24:41.640 the law created a presumption that the person had died. 0:24:42.340 --> 0:24:44.730 But after 12 months, a court could find that the 0:24:44.750 --> 0:24:47.630 missing person was dead based on a preponderance of the evidence. 0:24:48.430 --> 0:24:50.930 And in cases where someone has been exposed to a 0:24:50.970 --> 0:24:54.650 specific peril or tragedy likely to cause death, a court 0:24:54.760 --> 0:24:57.540 could make that finding earlier if there was clear and 0:24:57.580 --> 0:25:02.020 convincing evidence. Georgia law also contained specific rules governing what 0:25:02.060 --> 0:25:05.140 happened when a missing person stood to inherit from someone 0:25:05.160 --> 0:25:09.170 who died while they were missing. If Shirley's body had 0:25:09.260 --> 0:25:13.160 never been found, settling the estates would have involved Georgia-specific 0:25:13.240 --> 0:25:16.780 probate rules for missing people, including rules governing whether a 0:25:16.800 --> 0:25:19.240 missing person could inherit from someone who died while they 0:25:19.260 --> 0:25:23.100 were missing. So if Shirley's body had never been found, 0:25:23.660 --> 0:25:25.940 that would not have necessarily meant that the children had 0:25:25.980 --> 0:25:28.660 to wait one to four years before anything could happen 0:25:28.680 --> 0:25:31.760 with the estate. But it does support the point Sheriff 0:25:31.780 --> 0:25:34.760 Sills himself has made publicly. If someone in the family 0:25:34.840 --> 0:25:37.740 had killed Russell and Shirley hoping to get a payout quickly, 0:25:38.300 --> 0:25:41.580 Making Shirley disappear would have been a very strange way 0:25:41.640 --> 0:25:44.980 to try to accomplish that. Once Shirley's body was found, 0:25:45.300 --> 0:25:48.240 investigators and the probate court knew that both Russell and 0:25:48.280 --> 0:25:51.120 Shirley were dead, and the children were able to distribute 0:25:51.140 --> 0:25:54.960 the estate according to their parents' wishes. Police were trying 0:25:55.010 --> 0:25:58.090 to figure out the motive. If it wasn't simple robbery, 0:25:58.170 --> 0:26:00.270 and it wasn't someone very close to the family with 0:26:00.310 --> 0:26:04.850 something to inherit, and there was another financial motive, what 0:26:04.890 --> 0:26:15.660 was it? For a relatively small sheriff's office, the Derman 0:26:15.680 --> 0:26:20.120 murders became a huge case almost immediately. The FBI assisted, 0:26:20.220 --> 0:26:24.940