Speaker 1: It's the big take from Bloomberg News and I Heeart Radio.
Speaker 1: I'm west Casova today. Discontent at Apple. Why are some
Speaker 1: of the company's most loyal employees trying to unionize? There's
Speaker 1: a reason Apple has become the world's most valuable company,
Speaker 1: worth around two point four trillion dollars. Sure, people like
Speaker 1: their iPhones and MacBooks and Apple watches. It's not just
Speaker 1: the products themselves, though, but the way the company markets
Speaker 1: them as special and different. This was the great talent
Speaker 1: of Apple's co founder and chief evangelists Steve Jobs, who
Speaker 1: somehow could make you feel cool and even a bit
Speaker 1: rebellious for buying a mass produced electronic device that a
Speaker 1: billion other people also have in their pocket. What we're
Speaker 1: about isn't making boxes for people to get their jobs done,
Speaker 1: although we do that well, we do that better than
Speaker 1: almost anybody in some cases. But Apple's about something more
Speaker 1: than that. Apple at the core, it's core value is
Speaker 1: that we believe that people with passion can change the
Speaker 1: world for the better. That's what we believe, and even
Speaker 1: after all these years, people still line up at Apple
Speaker 1: stores around the world each time the company rolls out
Speaker 1: its latest version of the iPhone. The cue behind me
Speaker 1: looks pretty small at the moment, but it does spun
Speaker 1: all the way around. The corner is going to be
Speaker 1: at least a couple of hundred people have waiting for
Speaker 1: the new devices. But a lot of these people out
Speaker 1: here waiting in chairs, are standing in line for hours
Speaker 1: in this heat, and let me tell you, it's a
Speaker 1: hot one out here. A lot of people really excited
Speaker 1: for the new phone. And for the first time since
Speaker 1: the pandemic, we're seeing these long lines we used to
Speaker 1: years ago. Those Apples store is and there are five
Speaker 1: twenty one of them now worldwide, have become the centerpiece
Speaker 1: of the Apple customer experience. The stores are often impact
Speaker 1: with people who just want to hang out and soak
Speaker 1: up the Apple atmosphere. And few Apple fans are as
Speaker 1: genuinely enthusiastic about the company as those Apple store employees
Speaker 1: who come over to help you. They'll talk your ear
Speaker 1: off about the company and its values, and they seem
Speaker 1: to know every last detail about everything in the place.
Speaker 1: And if your phone breaks, the text at the store's
Speaker 1: genius bar can diagnose and often fix it on the spot.
Speaker 1: It was just so cool the way that we trained
Speaker 1: our employees back then, it was just this experience where
Speaker 1: you felt very special. You felt very much like you
Speaker 1: were going to be able to come and work for
Speaker 1: a company and truly do the best work that you could,
Speaker 1: no matter what your role was. Even though it was
Speaker 1: still a retail job. I really felt like I was
Speaker 1: about to do some work that actually mattered and had
Speaker 1: meaning behind it. When you come to the store, it's
Speaker 1: like we're there to help it, you know, meet you
Speaker 1: where you're at, and based on your interest, kind of
Speaker 1: match that. And then plus a little bit. Right, so
Speaker 1: if you're excited about getting a new phone, we're going
Speaker 1: to match that. But then the plus a little bit
Speaker 1: is showing you a few new features about the three
Speaker 1: different lenses on the cameras and how you can switch
Speaker 1: between them and something like that. I really found a
Speaker 1: lot of a lot of joy through doing that. Those
Speaker 1: are two Apple Store employees, Liabrisco and Billie Jarbo. We'll
Speaker 1: hear more from them in a bit. Recently, some Apple
Speaker 1: Store employees like them have become frustrated. They say that
Speaker 1: company has changed. They're now doing what would have been
Speaker 1: unthinkable at Apple just a few years ago, pushing to
Speaker 1: unionize and maybe not for the reasons you'd think to
Speaker 1: explain what's happening. I'm joined by my colleague, josh Idolson.
Speaker 1: He's a senior reporter covering labor and the workplace, and
Speaker 1: he's written a big story for Bloomberg Business Week about
Speaker 1: growing employee discontent at Apple. Josh, thanks for coming on
Speaker 1: the show. Thanks for having me. Josh, you cover labor
Speaker 1: and workforce issues around the country, and you've been doing
Speaker 1: a lot of reporting on big companies like Amazon and
Speaker 1: Starbucks and what we're talking about today Apple and the
Speaker 1: story that you have recently written is really interesting because
Speaker 1: it's about Apple store employees feeling pressure to do something
Speaker 1: that Apple never had them do before, and that's to
Speaker 1: up sell customers to buy stuff. One of the things
Speaker 1: that I learned traveling around the country talking to Apple
Speaker 1: workers is that there's a longer term shift at the
Speaker 1: Apple store that longtime employees have identified. Workers in various
Speaker 1: cities talk to me about the sense that the Apple
Speaker 1: store experience has changed for workers and in ways that
Speaker 1: affect customers. On the one hand, because of understaffing, and
Speaker 1: on the other hand, the experience of the Apple store
Speaker 1: workers say has changed dramatically because of pressure to up sell,
Speaker 1: So Josh, it used to be when you go into
Speaker 1: the Apple Store, it was almost like an anti store.
Speaker 1: In fact, when the Apple Store is first open, people say, well,
Speaker 1: this is never gonna work because they have all the
Speaker 1: products out there and no one is actually trying to
Speaker 1: get you to buy anything. You'd walk in there and
Speaker 1: you could play with the phones, and you could play
Speaker 1: with computers and talk to people who are really enthusiastic
Speaker 1: and really knowledgeable and walk right out of there without
Speaker 1: anyone asking you if you wanted to buy a thing,
Speaker 1: and that actually became one of the secrets to their success.
Speaker 1: If something broke, you would go to the Genius Bar,
Speaker 1: where these people would fix it, and maybe they'd even
Speaker 1: fix it for free and kind of make it feel
Speaker 1: like they were doing you a special favor, and that
Speaker 1: all changed. You may know someone as I do, or
Speaker 1: you may be someone who traveling around the country around
Speaker 1: the world, you see an Apple store, you want to
Speaker 1: go in and hang out and see what it's like.
Speaker 1: As one expert I've talked to said, the Apple Store
Speaker 1: is a store, but it's also partly a temple to
Speaker 1: go worship at the altar of the Apple brand and
Speaker 1: This was all part of Steve Jobs's idea that Apple
Speaker 1: was special, that it wasn't just a store selling stuff,
Speaker 1: that they were going to change the world. And people
Speaker 1: kind of laughed and said, Oh, that's Steve Jobs. He's
Speaker 1: over the top. But that vision of Apple as a
Speaker 1: special place with something a lot of employees took seriously
Speaker 1: and kind of took to heart. One of the long
Speaker 1: term workers I talked to described how he and go
Speaker 1: workers used to say, I can't believe what a great
Speaker 1: Jobless is. We get to hang out and talk about
Speaker 1: how cool Apple products are all day, and that there
Speaker 1: was an encouragement to take your time with customers to
Speaker 1: try out cameras. That that focus has shifted and when
Speaker 1: did that change? Why did that change? Apple has always
Speaker 1: had data, but people who have worked their long time
Speaker 1: say it used to be the data to that was
Speaker 1: really emphasized was the survey results about how happy the
Speaker 1: customers were. Now, workers say the focus has shifted towards well,
Speaker 1: how much money are we making off of these interactions?
Speaker 1: And workers say things started changing when Steve Jobs was
Speaker 1: replaced by Tim cook In, and that the change accelerated
Speaker 1: under the current retail chief. Dear dree O'Brien. Workers say
Speaker 1: managers started spending more time in morning meetings emphasizing metrics
Speaker 1: like what the company calls ownership opportunities, which refers to
Speaker 1: when you come in as a customer with a device
Speaker 1: that you may want to get fixed, and you walk
Speaker 1: out having instead agreed to trade in the device and
Speaker 1: pay some money to get a newer device. Some customers
Speaker 1: would be surprised, I think, to learn that there are
Speaker 1: stores where at all actually shows workers each other's statistics
Speaker 1: about what share of their customers traded in their device
Speaker 1: for a new one, and workers who have less impressive
Speaker 1: sales numbers that are below Apple's target in areas like
Speaker 1: getting people to trade in their product have those statistics
Speaker 1: marked in red in areas where their coworkers can all
Speaker 1: see that as well. So they're being told to push
Speaker 1: Apple Care extended warranties. When you go to the Genius
Speaker 1: Bar and your phone is under fritz, instead of saying, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: we can fix this, they say, here's how much it
Speaker 1: will cost you to buy a new phone. Or are
Speaker 1: they actually told you should try to get people to
Speaker 1: buy something new instead of fixing what they own. Workers
Speaker 1: say that the company now encourages them to focus on
Speaker 1: the opportunity to trade in the device for a new one.
Speaker 1: One employee I talked to, for example, said he feels
Speaker 1: now like a car salesman, sometimes wishing for quote unquote
Speaker 1: solution that involves buying something new, even when he doesn't
Speaker 1: always feel like that's in the best interest of the customer. Josh,
Speaker 1: what if Apple employees told you about sort of their
Speaker 1: total experience about working for Apple now versus working for
Speaker 1: Apple years ago. Some employees feel the jobs have become
Speaker 1: draining and that the pay and benefits, though they outstripped
Speaker 1: lots of other retailers, don't fully compensate them for the
Speaker 1: service that they're providing dealing with customers whose phones are
Speaker 1: as essential to limb as a limb. In some cases,
Speaker 1: workers have also expressed frustration with a gap they see
Speaker 1: between what the company promises and what it delivers when
Speaker 1: it comes to listening and taking feedback. Let's hear again
Speaker 1: from le to Briscoe, an Apple store employee from Oklahoma City.
Speaker 1: The way that we were all kind of given work,
Speaker 1: we weren't distributed work fairly and evenly. There was a
Speaker 1: lot of poor communication, and I started to ask myself,
Speaker 1: how does one of the largest technology companies in the
Speaker 1: world that hires some of the brightest and best people
Speaker 1: in the world have so much dysfunction in terms of
Speaker 1: communication and the way that we operate. And when you
Speaker 1: went to Apple and told them all of this, what
Speaker 1: did they say. Apple, in response to detailed inquiry, did
Speaker 1: not specifically address a number of the concerns that workers
Speaker 1: have raised. But Apple did say that it does not
Speaker 1: pay people based on commission, and then it does not
Speaker 1: mandate them to meet sales quotas. And it also said
Speaker 1: that it's committed like it always was to providing an
Speaker 1: excellent experience for customers and for employees. And what employees
Speaker 1: tell you about how that makes them feel about the
Speaker 1: company in the direction it's heading. One of the workers
Speaker 1: I talked to said it's killed his spirit a bit.
Speaker 1: Workers at Apple who are trying to unionize in many
Speaker 1: cases see themselves as the protectors of the values that
Speaker 1: the company is supposed to represent. There are people working
Speaker 1: across the country at Apple who feel like the company's
Speaker 1: official values deserve protecting and are not getting protected and
Speaker 1: advanced well enough by corporate management, who some of them
Speaker 1: referred to as big Apple, and that it's on the
Speaker 1: workers to push for the values that the company was
Speaker 1: supposed to stand for in the first place. After the
Speaker 1: break what some of these unhappy Apple workers are doing
Speaker 1: about it? So, Josh, you described discontent among a lot
Speaker 1: of Apple store workers. What are they trying to do
Speaker 1: about it? Workers had Dozens of Apple stores around the
Speaker 1: United States now are discussing unionization, and two stores have
Speaker 1: voted to unionize. Apple is one of several flagship US
Speaker 1: companies where no one had unionized in the United States
Speaker 1: until the past year. Where a dam has been broken, Josh.
Speaker 1: One of the stores where employees were really complaining about
Speaker 1: the culture of up selling that you described was in
Speaker 1: tows in Maryland. What happened there? In Towson, Maryland, workers
Speaker 1: talked about a giant laminated photo of a tree that
Speaker 1: management put in a break room where people who work
Speaker 1: on the Genius Bar were supposed to use a stick
Speaker 1: on label to mark each time they made a sale,
Speaker 1: and the tree, workers said made them feel that much
Speaker 1: more pressured on top of the existing pressure to have
Speaker 1: perfect metrics. Workers said this tree frustrated them because it
Speaker 1: felt like that much more pressure to upsell customers and
Speaker 1: that much more, drifting away from the old focus on
Speaker 1: keeping customers happy. Towson is also a store where workers
Speaker 1: say their statistics were posted on the wall so that
Speaker 1: people could see who was getting more and who was
Speaker 1: getting fewer. Customers to buy a new device rather than
Speaker 1: getting the old one fixed, and people with lower scores
Speaker 1: had their scores marked and read on this sheet that
Speaker 1: their co workers could all see. So they decided that
Speaker 1: they were going to try to unionize. And how did
Speaker 1: that all play out? Going up against a big company
Speaker 1: like Apple very difficult to do. How did they go
Speaker 1: about it? Workers got in touch with a machinists union
Speaker 1: organizer last year, They moved slowly, deliberately built a union
Speaker 1: committee in secret, and once they were competent in their support,
Speaker 1: they went public and then after signing up about two
Speaker 1: thirds of the workforce, they filed for an election with
Speaker 1: the labor board. How did the company respond to the
Speaker 1: unionization efforts? Did they? Did they combat it? Workers say
Speaker 1: the company tried hard to stop them from organizing and
Speaker 1: brought in managers from out of town, held meetings and
Speaker 1: suggested that unionizing could lead to losing pay or benefits,
Speaker 1: And workers say the campaign got personal. The company brought
Speaker 1: up the machinists unions history of racist behavior in the
Speaker 1: nineteenth century, that a manager who's black touched her own
Speaker 1: skin and told the workers that the union doesn't care
Speaker 1: about us. How did the union drive affect the staff
Speaker 1: and was everyone going along with it or did it
Speaker 1: kind of drive a wedge between employees. In the end,
Speaker 1: in Tausen, about two thirds of the workers voted for
Speaker 1: the union. We've seen at a number of stores around
Speaker 1: the country some workers have been vocally opposed to the union,
Speaker 1: and some tactics that are pretty common in union organizing
Speaker 1: campaigns have been called out by anti union employees as
Speaker 1: they feel divisive. In Taoson, there's about a third of
Speaker 1: the workforce who voted against the union. And one of
Speaker 1: the things that will determine the union's cloud as it
Speaker 1: tries to get a contract is how many of those
Speaker 1: workers it can win over to try to show a
Speaker 1: united front and taking on the company. Let's listen to
Speaker 1: what Billy Jarbo had to say. He's an Apple store
Speaker 1: employee in the Towson store, and that's when we really
Speaker 1: started to learn about Oh, there's a whole additional set
Speaker 1: of rights, so no wonder they aren't. There's no accountability,
Speaker 1: you know, because we don't have those rights to back
Speaker 1: us up. It's like either I'm looking for a different job,
Speaker 1: or you know, we haven't tried this other way, so
Speaker 1: let's just try and see if we can negotiate a
Speaker 1: contract that's actually better. Josh. What did Apple say about
Speaker 1: its responses to workers efforts to unionize? Apple did not
Speaker 1: respond directly to our questions about the union campaign or
Speaker 1: workers allegations about anti union pressure and messages that they've
Speaker 1: experienced from the company. Apple did say that it's proud
Speaker 1: of the exceptional benefits and compensation it offers. Apple says
Speaker 1: the benefits it offers range from mental health support, fertility assistance,
Speaker 1: to telehealth and virtual care tailored specifically fair black and
Speaker 1: Latino staff. Another story that has unionized is in Oklahoma City.
Speaker 1: Was it a similar experience to what happened in housing,
Speaker 1: They're the actual signing up of two thirds of the
Speaker 1: workforce on cards happened within five days, so after deliberately
Speaker 1: building a committee, they were able to quickly sign up
Speaker 1: their coworkers there too. In Oklahoma, the union alleges that
Speaker 1: the company was aggressive in bringing in more managers in
Speaker 1: holding meetings against the union, and some workers felt pretty
Speaker 1: condescended to by what happened in some of those meetings.
Speaker 1: How did employees make their argument to Apple and tell
Speaker 1: other employees about why they wanted to unionize? Was it
Speaker 1: this culture idea that they kind of wanted to go
Speaker 1: back to the Apple that they envisioned. Workers have adopted
Speaker 1: some of the company's own branding. The website for the
Speaker 1: union in Oklahoma City features uh speech that Steve Jobs gave.
Speaker 1: There was a picnic that the Oklahoma City workers supporting
Speaker 1: the union and union organizers held in the lead up
Speaker 1: to the election where workers went around and each said
Speaker 1: why they wanted a union. One of those workers said,
Speaker 1: because quote unquote good enough isn't And that's actually a
Speaker 1: line from Apple's credo, the mission statement, so to speak,
Speaker 1: that the company shares with workers, and a number of
Speaker 1: workers have said that they feel philosophically like what they're
Speaker 1: doing is what Apple encourages to push the status quo,
Speaker 1: to think differently and tactically. Some workers say they've adopted
Speaker 1: strategies they learned at Apple. One of them talked about
Speaker 1: what union organizers would often call inoculation where you share
Speaker 1: with workers what the company his argument against the union
Speaker 1: will be ahead of time and prepare them with a
Speaker 1: response to it instead of an oculation. He calls this
Speaker 1: positioning early because that's the tactic that you use in
Speaker 1: the Apple store, with things like letting people know ahead
Speaker 1: of time that there might be a delay for their
Speaker 1: repair so they're not caught off guard by it. Apple
Speaker 1: isn't the only big company feeling the anger of its employees.
Speaker 1: More with Josh Igelson after the break. Josh, You've written
Speaker 1: a lot about Apple, but there are also other big,
Speaker 1: well known companies have been writing about who are having
Speaker 1: a similar problem with employees who are having a loss
Speaker 1: of faith in the company. Over the past year, we
Speaker 1: have seen some of the top flagship, long time union
Speaker 1: free companies in the United States have workers vote to
Speaker 1: unionize for the first time, and at a number of
Speaker 1: these companies we see workers framing what they're fighting for
Speaker 1: in the company's own language. Can you give some examples
Speaker 1: of that At Starbucks? For example, Howard Schultz, who Starbucks
Speaker 1: calls its founder and is back for another stint as
Speaker 1: interim CEO, has talked repeatedly about having an empty chair
Speaker 1: at board meetings to represent the voice of the worker,
Speaker 1: And so the workers are saying, why does it have
Speaker 1: to be an empty chair, Why does it have to
Speaker 1: just be a symbol. Why don't we have a real
Speaker 1: voice in governing the company? And by unionizing, they've gotten
Speaker 1: into collective bargaining negotiations where now they're proposing to Starbucks
Speaker 1: that it actually put a representative of workers in that chair.
Speaker 1: And as I've reported for Business Week, Starbucks lawyers were
Speaker 1: mounts was to say, haven't you ever heard of a metaphor?
Speaker 1: At Starbucks? At Trader Joe's, at r e I, at Apple?
Speaker 1: You have companies that are known for a set of
Speaker 1: humane values and workers who now see themselves as fighting
Speaker 1: to protect and advance those values and to close the
Speaker 1: gap between what the company says it's ethos is and
Speaker 1: what they perceive as the actual conditions day to day
Speaker 1: working there. At some of these times gett In particular Starbucks,
Speaker 1: there has been much more widespread labor dissatisfaction and unionization
Speaker 1: efforts then we've seen at Apple what is happening at Starbucks.
Speaker 1: At Starbucks a year ago, there were zero officially unionized
Speaker 1: Starbucks locations among the nine thousand corporate owned US Starbucks cafes.
Speaker 1: Now there's around two. And part of why so many
Speaker 1: executives are watching so closely what happens at a place
Speaker 1: like Apple is that we've already seen at Starbucks. Once
Speaker 1: workers get a foothold for collective bargaining, once union organizers
Speaker 1: get a beachhead at a company, things can spread very quickly.
Speaker 1: At Starbucks, for example, the initial campaign in Buffalo moved
Speaker 1: deliberately and cautiously and was underground for the very first time.
Speaker 1: Starbucks has a US store that is union never before
Speaker 1: in the thirty year history since it went public until today.
Speaker 1: There are other places where workers organized much more quickly
Speaker 1: at other Starbucks cafes once they saw the example from Buffalo.
Speaker 1: I met with workers at a store in Memphis who
Speaker 1: were behind the register watching live streams of the ore
Speaker 1: Bucks Buffalo union on their phones. One of them got
Speaker 1: in touch with the union by calling the landline at
Speaker 1: the Buffalo Starbucks location that had unionized and asking to
Speaker 1: talk to someone about how to organize. This question of
Speaker 1: unionization has gone for many workers from unthinkable to a
Speaker 1: question of why unionized, to a question of why not unionized?
Speaker 1: What is Starbucks said about workers complaints and they're pushed
Speaker 1: to unionize the stores. Starbucks has said it believes they'll
Speaker 1: be better outcomes without collective bargaining, and it's repeatedly said
Speaker 1: that any claims of anti union activity by the company
Speaker 1: are categorically false. The General Council of the National Labor
Speaker 1: Relations Board, though, has issued dozens of pending complaints accusing
Speaker 1: the company of violating federal labor law. Starbucks has also
Speaker 1: said to me that it sees the union activism at
Speaker 1: the company as part of a larger trend in the
Speaker 1: country that goes beyond Starbucks. And of course there's truth
Speaker 1: to let Josh, do you think companies are starting to
Speaker 1: change the way they think about how to respond when
Speaker 1: employees attempt to unionize. I talked recently to New York
Speaker 1: City Controller Brad Lander, who has spearheaded an effort to
Speaker 1: get a workers rights audit of Starbucks. He argues that
Speaker 1: there's a new norm emerging that if you're a progressive company,
Speaker 1: if you're a socially responsible company, even you should stay
Speaker 1: neutral and not fight your workers efforts to unionize. That
Speaker 1: is not yet where most US companies are. It is
Speaker 1: still the norm in the US at most major companies,
Speaker 1: even at nonprofits, sometimes at unions, when their own staff
Speaker 1: try to organize, that management goes to lengths to prevent
Speaker 1: workers from organizing. People tend to be hesitant to give
Speaker 1: up power if they have an alternative, and many executives,
Speaker 1: many managers believe with conviction that they are making decisions
Speaker 1: that's in everyone's best interest and that they'll be better
Speaker 1: able to do that without having to negotiate with anybody.
Speaker 1: That raises the big question, Josh, after all these efforts,
Speaker 1: if employees are able successfully to unionize, do things really change?
Speaker 1: Do they get what they want? Does the come many
Speaker 1: change policies, or does it wind up just creating an
Speaker 1: adversarial relationship and things goes out. We are at a
Speaker 1: point now an Amazon, at Chipotle, at Apple, at Starbucks,
Speaker 1: at Trader Joe's at r I where workers have unionized
Speaker 1: for the first time, but they don't yet have a
Speaker 1: collective bargaining agreement with the company, and on average, it
Speaker 1: takes more than a year to get a collective bargaining
Speaker 1: agreement after unionized, and if the company is worried that
Speaker 1: a good union contract would inspire more organizing elsewhere, and
Speaker 1: the unions worried that a mediocre contract would hurt union
Speaker 1: organizing elsewhere. Then it can take even longer to get
Speaker 1: a contract, and many of these workers believe that ultimately
Speaker 1: getting a good contract is going to depend on additional
Speaker 1: pressure on the company, pressure from workers, pressure from consumers,
Speaker 1: pressure from politicians. In the meantime, workers do have some
Speaker 1: legal rights, but we are in a pivotal chapter now
Speaker 1: in these union fights. Where at Starbucks, for example, two
Speaker 1: fifty or so stores have unionized, thousands haven't. And there
Speaker 1: are workers at some of these non union stores wondering
Speaker 1: and waiting and wanting to see will the workers unionized
Speaker 1: get a contract, will they make significant gains to change
Speaker 1: the industry that they're working in the way that textile
Speaker 1: workers or auto workers did in the past. Josh Idolson,
Speaker 1: thanks for coming on the show. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: You can read josh Idolson's business week feature about Apple
Speaker 1: stores at Bloomberg dot com. Thanks for listening to us
Speaker 1: here at the Big Take the Daily podcast from Bloomberg
Speaker 1: and I Heart Radio. For more shows from my heart Radio,
Speaker 1: visit the i Heart Radio appp podcast or wherever you listen.
Speaker 1: Read Today's story and subscribe to our daily newsletter at
Speaker 1: bloomberg dot com slash Big Take, and we'd love to
Speaker 1: hear from you. Email us with questions or comments to
Speaker 1: Big Take at Bloomberg dot net. The supervising producer of
Speaker 1: The Big Take is Vicky Burgalina. Our senior producer is
Speaker 1: Katherine Fink. Our producers are Moe Barrow and Michael Falero.
Speaker 1: Hilde Garcia is our engineer. Original music by Leo Sidrin.
Speaker 1: I'm west Kosova. We'll be back tomorrow with another Big Take.