1 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:07,040 Speaker 1: It's the big take from Bloomberg News and I Heeart Radio. 2 00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:12,280 Speaker 1: I'm west Casova today. Discontent at Apple. Why are some 3 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:25,759 Speaker 1: of the company's most loyal employees trying to unionize? There's 4 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:29,320 Speaker 1: a reason Apple has become the world's most valuable company, 5 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 1: worth around two point four trillion dollars. Sure, people like 6 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: their iPhones and MacBooks and Apple watches. It's not just 7 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 1: the products themselves, though, but the way the company markets 8 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 1: them as special and different. This was the great talent 9 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:48,280 Speaker 1: of Apple's co founder and chief evangelists Steve Jobs, who 10 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:51,479 Speaker 1: somehow could make you feel cool and even a bit 11 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 1: rebellious for buying a mass produced electronic device that a 12 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 1: billion other people also have in their pocket. What we're 13 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: about isn't making boxes for people to get their jobs done, 14 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:07,840 Speaker 1: although we do that well, we do that better than 15 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 1: almost anybody in some cases. But Apple's about something more 16 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 1: than that. Apple at the core, it's core value is 17 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 1: that we believe that people with passion can change the 18 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: world for the better. That's what we believe, and even 19 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 1: after all these years, people still line up at Apple 20 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 1: stores around the world each time the company rolls out 21 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 1: its latest version of the iPhone. The cue behind me 22 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:37,680 Speaker 1: looks pretty small at the moment, but it does spun 23 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 1: all the way around. The corner is going to be 24 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 1: at least a couple of hundred people have waiting for 25 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 1: the new devices. But a lot of these people out 26 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 1: here waiting in chairs, are standing in line for hours 27 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 1: in this heat, and let me tell you, it's a 28 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: hot one out here. A lot of people really excited 29 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 1: for the new phone. And for the first time since 30 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 1: the pandemic, we're seeing these long lines we used to 31 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 1: years ago. Those Apples store is and there are five 32 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 1: twenty one of them now worldwide, have become the centerpiece 33 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:09,359 Speaker 1: of the Apple customer experience. The stores are often impact 34 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 1: with people who just want to hang out and soak 35 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 1: up the Apple atmosphere. And few Apple fans are as 36 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:20,359 Speaker 1: genuinely enthusiastic about the company as those Apple store employees 37 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:22,839 Speaker 1: who come over to help you. They'll talk your ear 38 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 1: off about the company and its values, and they seem 39 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 1: to know every last detail about everything in the place. 40 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 1: And if your phone breaks, the text at the store's 41 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:34,639 Speaker 1: genius bar can diagnose and often fix it on the spot. 42 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:37,919 Speaker 1: It was just so cool the way that we trained 43 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 1: our employees back then, it was just this experience where 44 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:44,080 Speaker 1: you felt very special. You felt very much like you 45 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:45,960 Speaker 1: were going to be able to come and work for 46 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 1: a company and truly do the best work that you could, 47 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: no matter what your role was. Even though it was 48 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 1: still a retail job. I really felt like I was 49 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:56,919 Speaker 1: about to do some work that actually mattered and had 50 00:02:57,000 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 1: meaning behind it. When you come to the store, it's 51 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 1: like we're there to help it, you know, meet you 52 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: where you're at, and based on your interest, kind of 53 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 1: match that. And then plus a little bit. Right, so 54 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 1: if you're excited about getting a new phone, we're going 55 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:12,919 Speaker 1: to match that. But then the plus a little bit 56 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 1: is showing you a few new features about the three 57 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 1: different lenses on the cameras and how you can switch 58 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:20,519 Speaker 1: between them and something like that. I really found a 59 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 1: lot of a lot of joy through doing that. Those 60 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:27,639 Speaker 1: are two Apple Store employees, Liabrisco and Billie Jarbo. We'll 61 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:30,919 Speaker 1: hear more from them in a bit. Recently, some Apple 62 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: Store employees like them have become frustrated. They say that 63 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 1: company has changed. They're now doing what would have been 64 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: unthinkable at Apple just a few years ago, pushing to 65 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 1: unionize and maybe not for the reasons you'd think to 66 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 1: explain what's happening. I'm joined by my colleague, josh Idolson. 67 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 1: He's a senior reporter covering labor and the workplace, and 68 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 1: he's written a big story for Bloomberg Business Week about 69 00:03:55,400 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 1: growing employee discontent at Apple. Josh, thanks for coming on 70 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 1: the show. Thanks for having me. Josh, you cover labor 71 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 1: and workforce issues around the country, and you've been doing 72 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 1: a lot of reporting on big companies like Amazon and 73 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 1: Starbucks and what we're talking about today Apple and the 74 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 1: story that you have recently written is really interesting because 75 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 1: it's about Apple store employees feeling pressure to do something 76 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 1: that Apple never had them do before, and that's to 77 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:30,720 Speaker 1: up sell customers to buy stuff. One of the things 78 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 1: that I learned traveling around the country talking to Apple 79 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:37,719 Speaker 1: workers is that there's a longer term shift at the 80 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:42,839 Speaker 1: Apple store that longtime employees have identified. Workers in various 81 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 1: cities talk to me about the sense that the Apple 82 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:49,640 Speaker 1: store experience has changed for workers and in ways that 83 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:54,160 Speaker 1: affect customers. On the one hand, because of understaffing, and 84 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 1: on the other hand, the experience of the Apple store 85 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:01,480 Speaker 1: workers say has changed dramatically because of pressure to up sell, 86 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:03,480 Speaker 1: So Josh, it used to be when you go into 87 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 1: the Apple Store, it was almost like an anti store. 88 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 1: In fact, when the Apple Store is first open, people say, well, 89 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 1: this is never gonna work because they have all the 90 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 1: products out there and no one is actually trying to 91 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 1: get you to buy anything. You'd walk in there and 92 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:18,280 Speaker 1: you could play with the phones, and you could play 93 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 1: with computers and talk to people who are really enthusiastic 94 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:24,040 Speaker 1: and really knowledgeable and walk right out of there without 95 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:27,280 Speaker 1: anyone asking you if you wanted to buy a thing, 96 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:31,799 Speaker 1: and that actually became one of the secrets to their success. 97 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 1: If something broke, you would go to the Genius Bar, 98 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 1: where these people would fix it, and maybe they'd even 99 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 1: fix it for free and kind of make it feel 100 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: like they were doing you a special favor, and that 101 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 1: all changed. You may know someone as I do, or 102 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 1: you may be someone who traveling around the country around 103 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:54,480 Speaker 1: the world, you see an Apple store, you want to 104 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 1: go in and hang out and see what it's like. 105 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:01,719 Speaker 1: As one expert I've talked to said, the Apple Store 106 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 1: is a store, but it's also partly a temple to 107 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:08,719 Speaker 1: go worship at the altar of the Apple brand and 108 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 1: This was all part of Steve Jobs's idea that Apple 109 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 1: was special, that it wasn't just a store selling stuff, 110 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:17,160 Speaker 1: that they were going to change the world. And people 111 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:19,720 Speaker 1: kind of laughed and said, Oh, that's Steve Jobs. He's 112 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: over the top. But that vision of Apple as a 113 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 1: special place with something a lot of employees took seriously 114 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 1: and kind of took to heart. One of the long 115 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 1: term workers I talked to described how he and go 116 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 1: workers used to say, I can't believe what a great 117 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:39,280 Speaker 1: Jobless is. We get to hang out and talk about 118 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:42,720 Speaker 1: how cool Apple products are all day, and that there 119 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:47,039 Speaker 1: was an encouragement to take your time with customers to 120 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:52,039 Speaker 1: try out cameras. That that focus has shifted and when 121 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 1: did that change? Why did that change? Apple has always 122 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 1: had data, but people who have worked their long time 123 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 1: say it used to be the data to that was 124 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:04,599 Speaker 1: really emphasized was the survey results about how happy the 125 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 1: customers were. Now, workers say the focus has shifted towards well, 126 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 1: how much money are we making off of these interactions? 127 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 1: And workers say things started changing when Steve Jobs was 128 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 1: replaced by Tim cook In, and that the change accelerated 129 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: under the current retail chief. Dear dree O'Brien. Workers say 130 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 1: managers started spending more time in morning meetings emphasizing metrics 131 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 1: like what the company calls ownership opportunities, which refers to 132 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: when you come in as a customer with a device 133 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 1: that you may want to get fixed, and you walk 134 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 1: out having instead agreed to trade in the device and 135 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 1: pay some money to get a newer device. Some customers 136 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 1: would be surprised, I think, to learn that there are 137 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 1: stores where at all actually shows workers each other's statistics 138 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 1: about what share of their customers traded in their device 139 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 1: for a new one, and workers who have less impressive 140 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 1: sales numbers that are below Apple's target in areas like 141 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 1: getting people to trade in their product have those statistics 142 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: marked in red in areas where their coworkers can all 143 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 1: see that as well. So they're being told to push 144 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 1: Apple Care extended warranties. When you go to the Genius 145 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: Bar and your phone is under fritz, instead of saying, oh, yeah, 146 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 1: we can fix this, they say, here's how much it 147 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:37,679 Speaker 1: will cost you to buy a new phone. Or are 148 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 1: they actually told you should try to get people to 149 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: buy something new instead of fixing what they own. Workers 150 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:49,320 Speaker 1: say that the company now encourages them to focus on 151 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:53,080 Speaker 1: the opportunity to trade in the device for a new one. 152 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:56,960 Speaker 1: One employee I talked to, for example, said he feels 153 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 1: now like a car salesman, sometimes wishing for quote unquote 154 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 1: solution that involves buying something new, even when he doesn't 155 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:11,559 Speaker 1: always feel like that's in the best interest of the customer. Josh, 156 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:14,079 Speaker 1: what if Apple employees told you about sort of their 157 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 1: total experience about working for Apple now versus working for 158 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:23,959 Speaker 1: Apple years ago. Some employees feel the jobs have become 159 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:29,439 Speaker 1: draining and that the pay and benefits, though they outstripped 160 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: lots of other retailers, don't fully compensate them for the 161 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 1: service that they're providing dealing with customers whose phones are 162 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 1: as essential to limb as a limb. In some cases, 163 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 1: workers have also expressed frustration with a gap they see 164 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 1: between what the company promises and what it delivers when 165 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:54,440 Speaker 1: it comes to listening and taking feedback. Let's hear again 166 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: from le to Briscoe, an Apple store employee from Oklahoma City. 167 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:03,559 Speaker 1: The way that we were all kind of given work, 168 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 1: we weren't distributed work fairly and evenly. There was a 169 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 1: lot of poor communication, and I started to ask myself, 170 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 1: how does one of the largest technology companies in the 171 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: world that hires some of the brightest and best people 172 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 1: in the world have so much dysfunction in terms of 173 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 1: communication and the way that we operate. And when you 174 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 1: went to Apple and told them all of this, what 175 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:30,960 Speaker 1: did they say. Apple, in response to detailed inquiry, did 176 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:35,560 Speaker 1: not specifically address a number of the concerns that workers 177 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 1: have raised. But Apple did say that it does not 178 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: pay people based on commission, and then it does not 179 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 1: mandate them to meet sales quotas. And it also said 180 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 1: that it's committed like it always was to providing an 181 00:10:52,480 --> 00:11:00,680 Speaker 1: excellent experience for customers and for employees. And what employees 182 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: tell you about how that makes them feel about the 183 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:06,199 Speaker 1: company in the direction it's heading. One of the workers 184 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:09,320 Speaker 1: I talked to said it's killed his spirit a bit. 185 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 1: Workers at Apple who are trying to unionize in many 186 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 1: cases see themselves as the protectors of the values that 187 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 1: the company is supposed to represent. There are people working 188 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 1: across the country at Apple who feel like the company's 189 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 1: official values deserve protecting and are not getting protected and 190 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:35,439 Speaker 1: advanced well enough by corporate management, who some of them 191 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 1: referred to as big Apple, and that it's on the 192 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:42,839 Speaker 1: workers to push for the values that the company was 193 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:46,079 Speaker 1: supposed to stand for in the first place. After the 194 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 1: break what some of these unhappy Apple workers are doing 195 00:11:49,320 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: about it? So, Josh, you described discontent among a lot 196 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 1: of Apple store workers. What are they trying to do 197 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 1: about it? Workers had Dozens of Apple stores around the 198 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:12,440 Speaker 1: United States now are discussing unionization, and two stores have 199 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 1: voted to unionize. Apple is one of several flagship US 200 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 1: companies where no one had unionized in the United States 201 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:28,320 Speaker 1: until the past year. Where a dam has been broken, Josh. 202 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 1: One of the stores where employees were really complaining about 203 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 1: the culture of up selling that you described was in 204 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 1: tows in Maryland. What happened there? In Towson, Maryland, workers 205 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 1: talked about a giant laminated photo of a tree that 206 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 1: management put in a break room where people who work 207 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 1: on the Genius Bar were supposed to use a stick 208 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 1: on label to mark each time they made a sale, 209 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 1: and the tree, workers said made them feel that much 210 00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 1: more pressured on top of the existing pressure to have 211 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 1: perfect metrics. Workers said this tree frustrated them because it 212 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 1: felt like that much more pressure to upsell customers and 213 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 1: that much more, drifting away from the old focus on 214 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 1: keeping customers happy. Towson is also a store where workers 215 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: say their statistics were posted on the wall so that 216 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 1: people could see who was getting more and who was 217 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 1: getting fewer. Customers to buy a new device rather than 218 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 1: getting the old one fixed, and people with lower scores 219 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 1: had their scores marked and read on this sheet that 220 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 1: their co workers could all see. So they decided that 221 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 1: they were going to try to unionize. And how did 222 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 1: that all play out? Going up against a big company 223 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 1: like Apple very difficult to do. How did they go 224 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:58,199 Speaker 1: about it? Workers got in touch with a machinists union 225 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 1: organizer last year, They moved slowly, deliberately built a union 226 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:09,200 Speaker 1: committee in secret, and once they were competent in their support, 227 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:13,440 Speaker 1: they went public and then after signing up about two 228 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 1: thirds of the workforce, they filed for an election with 229 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 1: the labor board. How did the company respond to the 230 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 1: unionization efforts? Did they? Did they combat it? Workers say 231 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 1: the company tried hard to stop them from organizing and 232 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 1: brought in managers from out of town, held meetings and 233 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 1: suggested that unionizing could lead to losing pay or benefits, 234 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 1: And workers say the campaign got personal. The company brought 235 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 1: up the machinists unions history of racist behavior in the 236 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 1: nineteenth century, that a manager who's black touched her own 237 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 1: skin and told the workers that the union doesn't care 238 00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 1: about us. How did the union drive affect the staff 239 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 1: and was everyone going along with it or did it 240 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 1: kind of drive a wedge between employees. In the end, 241 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 1: in Tausen, about two thirds of the workers voted for 242 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 1: the union. We've seen at a number of stores around 243 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 1: the country some workers have been vocally opposed to the union, 244 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 1: and some tactics that are pretty common in union organizing 245 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 1: campaigns have been called out by anti union employees as 246 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 1: they feel divisive. In Taoson, there's about a third of 247 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 1: the workforce who voted against the union. And one of 248 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 1: the things that will determine the union's cloud as it 249 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 1: tries to get a contract is how many of those 250 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 1: workers it can win over to try to show a 251 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 1: united front and taking on the company. Let's listen to 252 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: what Billy Jarbo had to say. He's an Apple store 253 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 1: employee in the Towson store, and that's when we really 254 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 1: started to learn about Oh, there's a whole additional set 255 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 1: of rights, so no wonder they aren't. There's no accountability, 256 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 1: you know, because we don't have those rights to back 257 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 1: us up. It's like either I'm looking for a different job, 258 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 1: or you know, we haven't tried this other way, so 259 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 1: let's just try and see if we can negotiate a 260 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 1: contract that's actually better. Josh. What did Apple say about 261 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: its responses to workers efforts to unionize? Apple did not 262 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 1: respond directly to our questions about the union campaign or 263 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 1: workers allegations about anti union pressure and messages that they've 264 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 1: experienced from the company. Apple did say that it's proud 265 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 1: of the exceptional benefits and compensation it offers. Apple says 266 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: the benefits it offers range from mental health support, fertility assistance, 267 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 1: to telehealth and virtual care tailored specifically fair black and 268 00:16:54,360 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: Latino staff. Another story that has unionized is in Oklahoma City. 269 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 1: Was it a similar experience to what happened in housing, 270 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,720 Speaker 1: They're the actual signing up of two thirds of the 271 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:12,640 Speaker 1: workforce on cards happened within five days, so after deliberately 272 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 1: building a committee, they were able to quickly sign up 273 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:21,879 Speaker 1: their coworkers there too. In Oklahoma, the union alleges that 274 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:27,720 Speaker 1: the company was aggressive in bringing in more managers in 275 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:33,479 Speaker 1: holding meetings against the union, and some workers felt pretty 276 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 1: condescended to by what happened in some of those meetings. 277 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:42,159 Speaker 1: How did employees make their argument to Apple and tell 278 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 1: other employees about why they wanted to unionize? Was it 279 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 1: this culture idea that they kind of wanted to go 280 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:55,880 Speaker 1: back to the Apple that they envisioned. Workers have adopted 281 00:17:56,080 --> 00:18:01,160 Speaker 1: some of the company's own branding. The website for the 282 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 1: union in Oklahoma City features uh speech that Steve Jobs gave. 283 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:12,160 Speaker 1: There was a picnic that the Oklahoma City workers supporting 284 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:15,359 Speaker 1: the union and union organizers held in the lead up 285 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:19,160 Speaker 1: to the election where workers went around and each said 286 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 1: why they wanted a union. One of those workers said, 287 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 1: because quote unquote good enough isn't And that's actually a 288 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:32,639 Speaker 1: line from Apple's credo, the mission statement, so to speak, 289 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,879 Speaker 1: that the company shares with workers, and a number of 290 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:41,120 Speaker 1: workers have said that they feel philosophically like what they're 291 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:44,640 Speaker 1: doing is what Apple encourages to push the status quo, 292 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 1: to think differently and tactically. Some workers say they've adopted 293 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 1: strategies they learned at Apple. One of them talked about 294 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 1: what union organizers would often call inoculation where you share 295 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 1: with workers what the company his argument against the union 296 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:04,159 Speaker 1: will be ahead of time and prepare them with a 297 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 1: response to it instead of an oculation. He calls this 298 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:12,199 Speaker 1: positioning early because that's the tactic that you use in 299 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:15,639 Speaker 1: the Apple store, with things like letting people know ahead 300 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 1: of time that there might be a delay for their 301 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 1: repair so they're not caught off guard by it. Apple 302 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:25,159 Speaker 1: isn't the only big company feeling the anger of its employees. 303 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:38,160 Speaker 1: More with Josh Igelson after the break. Josh, You've written 304 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 1: a lot about Apple, but there are also other big, 305 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:44,200 Speaker 1: well known companies have been writing about who are having 306 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:47,399 Speaker 1: a similar problem with employees who are having a loss 307 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:51,120 Speaker 1: of faith in the company. Over the past year, we 308 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:56,439 Speaker 1: have seen some of the top flagship, long time union 309 00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:01,439 Speaker 1: free companies in the United States have workers vote to 310 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 1: unionize for the first time, and at a number of 311 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:09,639 Speaker 1: these companies we see workers framing what they're fighting for 312 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 1: in the company's own language. Can you give some examples 313 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 1: of that At Starbucks? For example, Howard Schultz, who Starbucks 314 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:22,400 Speaker 1: calls its founder and is back for another stint as 315 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:28,000 Speaker 1: interim CEO, has talked repeatedly about having an empty chair 316 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:32,119 Speaker 1: at board meetings to represent the voice of the worker, 317 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:36,480 Speaker 1: And so the workers are saying, why does it have 318 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 1: to be an empty chair, Why does it have to 319 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 1: just be a symbol. Why don't we have a real 320 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:46,439 Speaker 1: voice in governing the company? And by unionizing, they've gotten 321 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:51,480 Speaker 1: into collective bargaining negotiations where now they're proposing to Starbucks 322 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 1: that it actually put a representative of workers in that chair. 323 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:59,879 Speaker 1: And as I've reported for Business Week, Starbucks lawyers were 324 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 1: mounts was to say, haven't you ever heard of a metaphor? 325 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:08,360 Speaker 1: At Starbucks? At Trader Joe's, at r e I, at Apple? 326 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 1: You have companies that are known for a set of 327 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:18,360 Speaker 1: humane values and workers who now see themselves as fighting 328 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 1: to protect and advance those values and to close the 329 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:25,439 Speaker 1: gap between what the company says it's ethos is and 330 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:30,480 Speaker 1: what they perceive as the actual conditions day to day 331 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: working there. At some of these times gett In particular Starbucks, 332 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:40,119 Speaker 1: there has been much more widespread labor dissatisfaction and unionization 333 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:43,960 Speaker 1: efforts then we've seen at Apple what is happening at Starbucks. 334 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 1: At Starbucks a year ago, there were zero officially unionized 335 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:59,119 Speaker 1: Starbucks locations among the nine thousand corporate owned US Starbucks cafes. 336 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:04,920 Speaker 1: Now there's around two. And part of why so many 337 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: executives are watching so closely what happens at a place 338 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 1: like Apple is that we've already seen at Starbucks. Once 339 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:18,920 Speaker 1: workers get a foothold for collective bargaining, once union organizers 340 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:23,119 Speaker 1: get a beachhead at a company, things can spread very quickly. 341 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:28,439 Speaker 1: At Starbucks, for example, the initial campaign in Buffalo moved 342 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: deliberately and cautiously and was underground for the very first time. 343 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:39,119 Speaker 1: Starbucks has a US store that is union never before 344 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 1: in the thirty year history since it went public until today. 345 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:47,400 Speaker 1: There are other places where workers organized much more quickly 346 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:51,200 Speaker 1: at other Starbucks cafes once they saw the example from Buffalo. 347 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 1: I met with workers at a store in Memphis who 348 00:22:55,680 --> 00:23:00,119 Speaker 1: were behind the register watching live streams of the ore 349 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 1: Bucks Buffalo union on their phones. One of them got 350 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 1: in touch with the union by calling the landline at 351 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:13,439 Speaker 1: the Buffalo Starbucks location that had unionized and asking to 352 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 1: talk to someone about how to organize. This question of 353 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 1: unionization has gone for many workers from unthinkable to a 354 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:26,639 Speaker 1: question of why unionized, to a question of why not unionized? 355 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 1: What is Starbucks said about workers complaints and they're pushed 356 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 1: to unionize the stores. Starbucks has said it believes they'll 357 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 1: be better outcomes without collective bargaining, and it's repeatedly said 358 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 1: that any claims of anti union activity by the company 359 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:48,360 Speaker 1: are categorically false. The General Council of the National Labor 360 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 1: Relations Board, though, has issued dozens of pending complaints accusing 361 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 1: the company of violating federal labor law. Starbucks has also 362 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:01,160 Speaker 1: said to me that it sees the union activism at 363 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: the company as part of a larger trend in the 364 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:08,359 Speaker 1: country that goes beyond Starbucks. And of course there's truth 365 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,359 Speaker 1: to let Josh, do you think companies are starting to 366 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:15,400 Speaker 1: change the way they think about how to respond when 367 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:23,440 Speaker 1: employees attempt to unionize. I talked recently to New York 368 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: City Controller Brad Lander, who has spearheaded an effort to 369 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:33,040 Speaker 1: get a workers rights audit of Starbucks. He argues that 370 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 1: there's a new norm emerging that if you're a progressive company, 371 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 1: if you're a socially responsible company, even you should stay 372 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 1: neutral and not fight your workers efforts to unionize. That 373 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:50,679 Speaker 1: is not yet where most US companies are. It is 374 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 1: still the norm in the US at most major companies, 375 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:59,879 Speaker 1: even at nonprofits, sometimes at unions, when their own staff 376 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 1: try to organize, that management goes to lengths to prevent 377 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:09,400 Speaker 1: workers from organizing. People tend to be hesitant to give 378 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: up power if they have an alternative, and many executives, 379 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:20,120 Speaker 1: many managers believe with conviction that they are making decisions 380 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:23,160 Speaker 1: that's in everyone's best interest and that they'll be better 381 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,560 Speaker 1: able to do that without having to negotiate with anybody. 382 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 1: That raises the big question, Josh, after all these efforts, 383 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 1: if employees are able successfully to unionize, do things really change? 384 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 1: Do they get what they want? Does the come many 385 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 1: change policies, or does it wind up just creating an 386 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,679 Speaker 1: adversarial relationship and things goes out. We are at a 387 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:50,480 Speaker 1: point now an Amazon, at Chipotle, at Apple, at Starbucks, 388 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 1: at Trader Joe's at r I where workers have unionized 389 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,360 Speaker 1: for the first time, but they don't yet have a 390 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,680 Speaker 1: collective bargaining agreement with the company, and on average, it 391 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,159 Speaker 1: takes more than a year to get a collective bargaining 392 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 1: agreement after unionized, and if the company is worried that 393 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 1: a good union contract would inspire more organizing elsewhere, and 394 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 1: the unions worried that a mediocre contract would hurt union 395 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:19,880 Speaker 1: organizing elsewhere. Then it can take even longer to get 396 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 1: a contract, and many of these workers believe that ultimately 397 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:28,679 Speaker 1: getting a good contract is going to depend on additional 398 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:32,679 Speaker 1: pressure on the company, pressure from workers, pressure from consumers, 399 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 1: pressure from politicians. In the meantime, workers do have some 400 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: legal rights, but we are in a pivotal chapter now 401 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,760 Speaker 1: in these union fights. Where at Starbucks, for example, two 402 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 1: fifty or so stores have unionized, thousands haven't. And there 403 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:56,480 Speaker 1: are workers at some of these non union stores wondering 404 00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 1: and waiting and wanting to see will the workers unionized 405 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 1: get a contract, will they make significant gains to change 406 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,919 Speaker 1: the industry that they're working in the way that textile 407 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 1: workers or auto workers did in the past. Josh Idolson, 408 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,719 Speaker 1: thanks for coming on the show. Thanks for having me. 409 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:22,119 Speaker 1: You can read josh Idolson's business week feature about Apple 410 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 1: stores at Bloomberg dot com. Thanks for listening to us 411 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,439 Speaker 1: here at the Big Take the Daily podcast from Bloomberg 412 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:34,200 Speaker 1: and I Heart Radio. For more shows from my heart Radio, 413 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:38,879 Speaker 1: visit the i Heart Radio appp podcast or wherever you listen. 414 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 1: Read Today's story and subscribe to our daily newsletter at 415 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:47,119 Speaker 1: bloomberg dot com slash Big Take, and we'd love to 416 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 1: hear from you. Email us with questions or comments to 417 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 1: Big Take at Bloomberg dot net. The supervising producer of 418 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,800 Speaker 1: The Big Take is Vicky Burgalina. Our senior producer is 419 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 1: Katherine Fink. Our producers are Moe Barrow and Michael Falero. 420 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:07,880 Speaker 1: Hilde Garcia is our engineer. Original music by Leo Sidrin. 421 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:12,320 Speaker 1: I'm west Kosova. We'll be back tomorrow with another Big Take.