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Speaker 1: This is Bloombird Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 1: On the first anniversary of the insurrection at the US

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Speaker 1: Capital on January six, President Joe Biden gave a fiery

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Speaker 1: speech denouncing former President Donald Trump and blaming him for

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Speaker 1: the riot. For the first time in our history, president

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Speaker 1: had not just lost an election. He tried to prevent

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Speaker 1: the peaceful transfer of power as a violent mob reached

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Speaker 1: the Capitol, but they failed. More than seven people have

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Speaker 1: been charged with a variety of crimes from January six,

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Speaker 1: ranging from illegal parading to assaulting police officers. The chairman

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Speaker 1: of the House committee investigating January six, Benny Thompson, says

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Speaker 1: they're looking at whether Trump's actions were part of a

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Speaker 1: broader plan and whether they merit criminal referral to the

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Speaker 1: Department of just is. But I can say if there's

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Speaker 1: anything that we come upon as a committee that we

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Speaker 1: think would warrant a referral to the Department of Justice,

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Speaker 1: will do that. Uh. And that's our oath as members

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Speaker 1: of Congress join me as former federal prosecutor Robert Ments

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Speaker 1: a partner with Carter in English. But what do you

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Speaker 1: make of Thompson's comments? The committee chairmans did carefully choose

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Speaker 1: his words in saying, if there's anything we come upon

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Speaker 1: as a committee that we think would warrant a referral

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Speaker 1: to the Department of Justice, will do that. So in

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Speaker 1: some ways it was really generalized language. They surely did

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Speaker 1: not suggest that they have that information. The committee chairman

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Speaker 1: was simply saying that if they do find it, they

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Speaker 1: wouldn't rule out that possibility. That's a far cry from

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Speaker 1: saying that they have evidence that is enough to make

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Speaker 1: that kind of referral. And of course it would ultimately

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Speaker 1: be up to the Department of Justice and the Attorney

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Speaker 1: General Mayor Rick Garland as to whether or not the

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Speaker 1: Department of Justice would ever take up that referral. The

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Speaker 1: committee chair and vice chair said that there was significant testimony,

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Speaker 1: firsthand testimony from inside the White House that shows what

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Speaker 1: Trump was doing during those seven minutes from the start

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Speaker 1: of the siege to his videotape message to his support

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Speaker 1: is to leave the capital. And the vice chair, Liz Cheney,

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Speaker 1: called it a dereliction of duty. Even if that is

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Speaker 1: a dereliction of duty, but that's not a criminal offense. No,

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Speaker 1: that's exactly right. And if you listen carefully to Vice

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Speaker 1: Chairman Cheney's statement about the criminal statute that she was

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Speaker 1: referring to, which is eighteen Usc. Fifteen twelve, which makes

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Speaker 1: it a felony to attempt to corruptly obstruct, influence, or

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Speaker 1: impede any official proceeding. She said that the former president,

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Speaker 1: through action or inaction, may have corruptly sought to obstruct

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Speaker 1: her impede Congress's official proceeding to count electoral votes. Taking

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Speaker 1: action to impede a proceeding to count electoral votes would

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Speaker 1: certainly constitute a possible criminal violation, But in action, which

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Speaker 1: seems to be more with the committee is looking at

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Speaker 1: at this point, based upon the evidence that they have found,

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Speaker 1: would not in and of itself constitute a crime. In

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Speaker 1: our system, there is virtually no act of inaction or

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Speaker 1: omission that constitutes criminal conduct. Criminal conduct is a knowing

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Speaker 1: and willful violation to break the law. It can be

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Speaker 1: a conspiracy where people agree to violate the law. You

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Speaker 1: can aid in the bed of violation if you know

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Speaker 1: something that's going to happen and then take some affirmative

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Speaker 1: steps to assist in making that happen. But simply knowing

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Speaker 1: about something and not acting is not a federal criminal violation.

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Speaker 1: And so if all at the end of the day

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Speaker 1: the Committee has determined is during those on eighty seven minutes,

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Speaker 1: the president knew about illegal conduct going on within the

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Speaker 1: capital but was slow to act. That is not something

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Speaker 1: that ultimately would constitute a basis for a criminal violation,

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Speaker 1: and it is certainly not something that I would expect

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Speaker 1: the Committee to refer over to the Department of Justice

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Speaker 1: for possible criminal prosecution. And it seems as if they

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Speaker 1: don't know what the President said in response to, for example,

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Speaker 1: texts or in response to Ivanka Trump, you know, would

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Speaker 1: that be necessary to find out? Well, I think that's

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Speaker 1: exactly what they're focusing on now. They're trying to piece together,

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Speaker 1: minute by minute, this one d eighty seven minute time

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Speaker 1: period between the start of the Capital insurrection and the

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Speaker 1: time that former President Trump issued a message to the

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Speaker 1: people who had stormed the capital to go home, And

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Speaker 1: they're trying to find out what the president did during

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Speaker 1: that one eighty seven minutes, What did he know, who

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Speaker 1: did he speak with, what was he old, and what

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Speaker 1: was his responses to some of the suggestions. Now, what

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Speaker 1: the committee has uncovered is that there were several members

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Speaker 1: of his staff, including his daughter Ivanka, who urged him

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Speaker 1: to make a public statement, and they were apparently several

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Speaker 1: recorded statements that the White House ultimately decided not to

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Speaker 1: release before the statement that actually was released by former

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Speaker 1: President Trump. That's the kind of information that the committee

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Speaker 1: is trying to get, and that's some of the very

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Speaker 1: information that the Trump White House is refusing to turn

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Speaker 1: over and has now taken that case to the Supreme Court.

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Speaker 1: What about Trump's speech at the Stop the Steel rally,

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Speaker 1: which some say inside the crowd to march on the

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Speaker 1: Capitol and do violence. Does he have any legal exposure

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Speaker 1: from that. One thing, of course, that former President Trump

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Speaker 1: actually did do in an affirmative way was to speak

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Speaker 1: at the now infamous Stopped the Steel rally shortly before

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Speaker 1: the attack. Some critics have argued that his words at

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Speaker 1: that rally constitute incitement, in other words, that those words

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Speaker 1: incited the violent acts, and that could be the basis

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Speaker 1: for a criminal prosecution. But this type of criminal offense

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Speaker 1: is rarely charged because of the U. S. Supreme Court

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Speaker 1: decision in nineteen sixty nine that held at the First

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Speaker 1: Amendment protects speech unless it incites imminent lawless action. So

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Speaker 1: they would have to parse the president's words carefully, something

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Speaker 1: that has already been done, and they would have to

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Speaker 1: determine that those words were directly calling for imminent lawless action.

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Speaker 1: I think what you find if you listen carefully to

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Speaker 1: the president's words at that rally that a lot of

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Speaker 1: the language was vague. At times, he suggested that the

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Speaker 1: audience act peacefully, and so it's going to be difficult,

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Speaker 1: I think, to try to argue that those words somehow

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Speaker 1: incited this crowd. And I think that's why we've seen

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Speaker 1: nothing done on the basis of words that were at

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Speaker 1: that rally by former President Trump that led up to

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Speaker 1: the January six insurrection. Some experts say it's dangerous for

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Speaker 1: the committee to make a criminal referral because it might

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Speaker 1: set a precedent. Do you agree with that, Well, it

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Speaker 1: is something that I think the committee needs to be

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Speaker 1: very careful about because congressional committees are not criminal investigatory agencies.

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Speaker 1: They don't investigate crimes. That is not their function. Their

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Speaker 1: job is to conduct investigations in order to consider future legislation.

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Speaker 1: They have the right to investigate incidents that happen, but

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Speaker 1: with the goal towards writing legislations to prevent those incidents

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Speaker 1: from happening again in the case of the insurrection. So

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Speaker 1: the concern here is that if it appears as if

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Speaker 1: this committee is more of a criminal investigatory agency rather

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Speaker 1: than a congressional agency, it does set a dangerous precedent.

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Speaker 1: And the Committee has requested for examp bill interviews from

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Speaker 1: a couple of Republican Congressmen Scott Perry of Pennsylvania Jim

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Speaker 1: Jordan of Ohio. Both of these individuals were allegedly involved

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Speaker 1: the events on January six. But all of that does

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Speaker 1: tread very closely to a situation in which you have

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Speaker 1: a subsequent administration investigating the prior administration. And as we

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Speaker 1: know in Washington, eventually you're in the minority, even though

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Speaker 1: today you may be in the majority. And so I

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Speaker 1: think there was some real concern that we don't want

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Speaker 1: to have a situation in which as soon as one

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Speaker 1: administration is out of office, or in this case, as

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Speaker 1: soon as the House of Representatives might change over from

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Speaker 1: one party control to another, that they immediately begin in

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Speaker 1: investigation into the prior administration. And the committee is actually

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Speaker 1: looking into whether it can subpoena those reluctant members of Congress.

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Speaker 1: It's also locked in a legal battle with Trump to

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Speaker 1: try to get his White House records, which are being

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Speaker 1: held at the National are Times tell us about Trump's

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Speaker 1: effort to get the Supreme Court to step in. So

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Speaker 1: the Trump administration is seeking to override President Joe Biden's

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Speaker 1: decision to waive executive privilege over these documents, and this

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Speaker 1: case has already been decided by the DC Court of

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Speaker 1: Appeals in the three nothing decision, in which the court

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Speaker 1: said that these records were vital to the committee's investigation.

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Speaker 1: Trump is basically arguing that despite the fact that President

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Speaker 1: Biden is not asserting executive privilege, that the former president

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Speaker 1: this case, President Trump still has a basis to assert

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Speaker 1: executive privilege on his own, and that what's really happening

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Speaker 1: here is that this committee is engaged in a criminal investigation,

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Speaker 1: and that is not being done for a legitimate legislative function,

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Speaker 1: which is the purpose of a congressional investigation. They're basically

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Speaker 1: arguing that is a very broad investigation. That they're investigating

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Speaker 1: President Trump because they view him as a political foe,

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Speaker 1: somebody who is potential lee a candidate for president in

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Speaker 1: four and that this is all politically motivated and that

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Speaker 1: it is not pie to a legitimate legislative function. And

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Speaker 1: therefore they're asking the Supreme Court to step in and

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Speaker 1: to allow the president to withhold about eight hundred pages

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Speaker 1: of material involving protected presidential communication. This is a case

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Speaker 1: the Supreme Court doesn't have to take. There's no conflict

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Speaker 1: in the circuits. They could pass it. Bibsen, we chase

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Speaker 1: some the decision the DC Court of Appeals would be

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Speaker 1: the law of the land on this issue, because it

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Speaker 1: is an extremely narrow issue, and we're going to find

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Speaker 1: out very soon whether or not the Supreme Court is

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Speaker 1: going to take up this case. In the meantime, the

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Speaker 1: documents will remain secret. Thanks Bob. That's Robert Mints, a

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Speaker 1: partner a Carter in English. Former President Donald Trump's two

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Speaker 1: eldest children, Ivanka and Don Jr. Are trying to quash

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Speaker 1: subpoenas for their testimony from the New York Attorney General,

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Speaker 1: who's investigating whether Trump's real estate business manipulated the value

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Speaker 1: of key assets for texts and insurance purposes. But will

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Speaker 1: they fare any better than their brother, Eric, who was

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Speaker 1: forced to testifying the investigation in October after a losing

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Speaker 1: battle in court, joining me as former federal prosecutor Jennifer

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Speaker 1: Rogers who teaches at Columbia Law School. Jennifer, this investigation

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Speaker 1: has been going on since. What do you make of

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Speaker 1: the timing of these subpoenas. It is kind of interesting

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Speaker 1: that it's happened as the Select Committee is also ratcheting

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Speaker 1: up its investigation and kind of getting closer to the

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Speaker 1: inner circle as well. You know, you do tend to

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Speaker 1: hold the more important witnesses to the end because you

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Speaker 1: want to gather as much evidence that you can, kind

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Speaker 1: of gather your ammunition, if you will, before you speak

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Speaker 1: with the people who are kind of central to the inquiry,

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Speaker 1: your targets. So maybe that suggests that she and her

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Speaker 1: team are getting close to the end of the inquiry.

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Speaker 1: That they've now notice the Trump kids, So it might

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Speaker 1: suggest that that she's getting towards the end, But it's

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Speaker 1: hard to tell, you know, these investigative types are usually

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Speaker 1: pretty close lists about housings are proceeding inside. What are

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Speaker 1: the Trumps arguing to the court to try to get

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Speaker 1: the subpoenas quashed. They have tried to say that it's

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Speaker 1: improper that the depositions are being noticed at a time

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Speaker 1: when there's also a parallel criminal inquiry going on. But

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Speaker 1: you know, this is not that uncommon. In financial cases,

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Speaker 1: for example, you will see a financial criminal investigation going

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Speaker 1: on at the Department of Justice at the same time

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Speaker 1: that the SEC maybe investigating for a civil case, and

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Speaker 1: those things running in parallel sometimes, so it does happen.

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Speaker 1: There's no inherent problem with it. I mean, the Trumps

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Speaker 1: are going to have to decide how they proceed knowing

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Speaker 1: that any testimony they give in a civil matter can

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Speaker 1: be used against them criminally or against the company criminally

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Speaker 1: if it comes to that. I wouldn't say it's commonplace.

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Speaker 1: Oftentimes the criminal will take precedence and the SEC or

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Speaker 1: whatever the civil entity is will hold, But it sometimes

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Speaker 1: does happen that they happen at the same time. So

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Speaker 1: I don't think an argument that there's something inherently improper

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Speaker 1: about that is going to carry the day. Are they alleging, though,

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Speaker 1: that there's bad faith that the New York a g

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Speaker 1: is trying to take their depositions so that that evidence

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Speaker 1: can be used against them in the criminal case, that

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Speaker 1: she's also a part of Well, they've been alleging bad

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Speaker 1: faith all along. I mean that's basically from number one

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Speaker 1: answer to anything against him, whether it's a criminal inquiry

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Speaker 1: of civil case, it's always somehow politically motivated or in

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Speaker 1: bad faith. You know, you just can't get around that argument.

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Speaker 1: They have a little bit of ammunition here. I mean,

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Speaker 1: kiss James when she was campaigning, made some ill advised

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Speaker 1: comments about how she wanted to go after Trump, and

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Speaker 1: the fact that her team is working with the Manhattan

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Speaker 1: JEA the criminal case gives these claims a little bit

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Speaker 1: more gravitates than they might otherwise have. But this is

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Speaker 1: straight out of the Trump playbooks, you know. It's a

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Speaker 1: claim that this is all kind of bad faith political motivation.

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Speaker 1: These are two inquaes that have been going on for

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Speaker 1: quite some time. The Manhattan d A has been leading

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Speaker 1: the criminal inquiry, and then some of the Fish James

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Speaker 1: apparently joined forces with them. But you know, again, I

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Speaker 1: can't see how that kind of argument is going to

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Speaker 1: swigh a judge, for example, to say that they cannot

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Speaker 1: be deposed in this otherwise legitimate civil matter just because

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Speaker 1: there is an ongoing criminal inquiry. I mean, that's the

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Speaker 1: risk that people take when they do things that open

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Speaker 1: them up to civil investigations and criminal investigation. Is it

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Speaker 1: wise for them to testify in the civil case knowing

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Speaker 1: that a criminal case is being contemplated, Well, it's not

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Speaker 1: wise for them to give up any information, and in

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Speaker 1: either case if they can help it, and that's why

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Speaker 1: they're fighting so hard against it. But ultimately they may

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Speaker 1: be forced to do that, and again they'll have to

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Speaker 1: be quite careful because anything they say in the civil

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Speaker 1: case will be able to be used against them. But

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Speaker 1: you know, that's why you shouldn't lie. That's why you

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Speaker 1: have to be careful in terms of what you say.

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Speaker 1: But that's just the way the ball bounces. If you've

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Speaker 1: done things that are illegal, and you've done things that

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Speaker 1: subject you to lawsuits, and then you're asked to come

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Speaker 1: and tell with youth about them, you know, the chips

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Speaker 1: fall where they may on that one. If they take

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Speaker 1: the fifth in the civil case, will that create an

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Speaker 1: inference against them? It does create an inference in the

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Speaker 1: civil case. Of course, it can't be used in the

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Speaker 1: criminal case. That's everyone's Sist Amendment right not to incriminate themselves.

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Speaker 1: But yes, that's part of the challenge for them. That's

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Speaker 1: part of the pickle is that they have to decide

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Speaker 1: whether they want to refuse to testify because of potential

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Speaker 1: criminal liability. And by the way, that could have been

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Speaker 1: the case regardless of whether there's a criminal inquiry or not.

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Speaker 1: I mean, if they know that they did things as

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Speaker 1: part of their work at Trump Board that subjected them

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Speaker 1: to potential criminal liability somewhere somehow down the road. There

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Speaker 1: doesn't have to be a pending inquiry for them to

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Speaker 1: claim their Fifth Amendment privilege. But they have to think

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Speaker 1: about that, you know, whether they want to do that

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Speaker 1: or not, because then you can get that inference. In

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Speaker 1: the civil case, Eric Trump fought the subpoena from the

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Speaker 1: New York a g and was forced to testify. But

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Speaker 1: could a judge here with the criminal case penning, could

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Speaker 1: a judge look at this and say, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: hold off on this until the criminal case is over

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Speaker 1: or issue some kind of protective order. Well, I mean,

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Speaker 1: a judge has a lot of powers to be able

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Speaker 1: to do things like that, but it's hard to see

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Speaker 1: a judge interfering with their pieces like that. I mean,

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Speaker 1: if if you convinced the judge that it was in

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Speaker 1: bad faith and that they were, you know, act saying

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Speaker 1: they were politically motivated or otherwise motivated by a desire

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Speaker 1: to get him that wasn't part of the merits of

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Speaker 1: the case. Then maybe you'd see a judge trying to

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Speaker 1: enter some order. But I would be surprised to see

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Speaker 1: a judge interfering in that way. And I say that

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Speaker 1: because I just don't think they're going to be able

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Speaker 1: to show any bad faith. Uh, and so the judge

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Speaker 1: wouldn't really have anything to to hang their heat on,

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Speaker 1: and just saying that that they couldn't proceed with the deposition.

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Speaker 1: I want to turn for a moment to former Governor

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Speaker 1: Andrew Cuomo. The Albany District Attorney has dropped criminal charges

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Speaker 1: against Cuomo over allegations that he groped a woman in

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Speaker 1: the executive mansion. What's the significance, Well, it's a big

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Speaker 1: deal because it means there will be no criminal case.

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Speaker 1: You know, there was a moment there, maybe a couple

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Speaker 1: of hours back when the sheriff had filed this criminal

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Speaker 1: complaint and before the Albany d A came in and said, hey,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute, we weren't part of this. We're still

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Speaker 1: evaluating the case when everyone thought that meant that he

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Speaker 1: would be criminally charged with the grouping incidents, and now

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Speaker 1: we know that that will not happen. So it's a

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Speaker 1: really strange episode as far as law enforcement not being

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Speaker 1: on the same page, and the relationship commit d A

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Speaker 1: and the sheriff's and who knows what happened with all

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Speaker 1: of that. But it's great news for Andrew Cuomo because,

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Speaker 1: along with a couple of other district attorneys closing their

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Speaker 1: investigations into whether he committed crimes in their districts, it

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Speaker 1: means that he won't be facing a criminal charge, which

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Speaker 1: you know that that's a huge thing hanging over someone's head.

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Speaker 1: You know, he's still got a lot of issues relating

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Speaker 1: to all of this, including likely civil suits and the like.

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Speaker 1: But not having the possibility of going to jail for

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Speaker 1: that behavior, I'm sure it's a big relief to him.

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Speaker 1: The d A said that he finds the witness credible,

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Speaker 1: but he can't prove it in a court of law.

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Speaker 1: He knew from the beginning that this was going to

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Speaker 1: be a he said, she said situation. So if he

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Speaker 1: minds the witness credible, why not bring charges? It's a

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Speaker 1: tough issue and a good question. There's a lot of

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Speaker 1: space between we believe the witness and we can prove

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Speaker 1: it in court using admissible evidence beyond a reasonable doubt.

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Speaker 1: These are very very challenging cases, and so I think

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Speaker 1: if you're going to bring a case like this, because

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Speaker 1: it's just take the main case, the one that the

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Speaker 1: Albany d A just said he won't charge the groping allegations.

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Speaker 1: You have an incident, only two people were there. You

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Speaker 1: have some things you can corroborate, like the facts that

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Speaker 1: they worked together, they were there on the day and

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Speaker 1: time and question, you know, those sorts of things. But

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Speaker 1: what you don't have is the kind of evidence that

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Speaker 1: makes her account vastly more believable than his accounts, right,

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Speaker 1: the kind of thing where she ran out in a

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Speaker 1: panic and people saw her freaking out and she immediately

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Speaker 1: told a whole bunch of people exactly what had happened,

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Speaker 1: you know, the day of Those are the sorts of

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Speaker 1: things that you don't have. And so while you might

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Speaker 1: say I believe her more than him, you know, can

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Speaker 1: you get to beyond a reasonable doubt, which is a

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Speaker 1: very very high standard, And it's that way for a reason,

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Speaker 1: but it does make it very very challenging to charge

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Speaker 1: these kinds of pieces. And so you know that the

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Speaker 1: Albany d A apparently went the way of the other

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Speaker 1: das to evaluate the incidents that happened in their areas

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Speaker 1: and just decided that they didn't have enough proof to

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Speaker 1: push it up to where they needed it to be

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Speaker 1: to bring the case to trial. When the New York

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Speaker 1: a g announced this report on Cuomo's conduct with women,

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Speaker 1: which included accounts of eleven incidents of sexual harassment, she

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Speaker 1: said that he had violated state and federal law. I

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Speaker 1: never figured out what the federal law violations would even be,

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Speaker 1: But did she also exaggerate? I think she actually was

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Speaker 1: very careful in the world warding, because there are things

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Speaker 1: that were done in connection with covering up the allegations,

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Speaker 1: in not dealing with the complaints in the appropriate way,

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Speaker 1: not sending them to the appropriate place, that are arguably

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Speaker 1: violations of state law, but not criminal law. So you know,

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Speaker 1: I think that you can construe those remarks to the

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Speaker 1: violations of workplace related regulations and not necessarily criminal law.

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Speaker 1: So you know, I'm not sure also what James meant,

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Speaker 1: but it is possible, I think to reconcile the evidence

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Speaker 1: that was in the report with a decision not to prosecute.

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Speaker 1: Remember again too, Tish James herself as a former prosecutor,

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Speaker 1: but she may have a different view. I mean, she

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Speaker 1: may say, look, if this was my case and I

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Speaker 1: was a d A sitting in Albany, I would bring

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Speaker 1: it and she would be justified in doing that if

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Speaker 1: she's willing to take the risk that she can win

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Speaker 1: that case. David Touare's there's a different person made a

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Speaker 1: different decision. You know, d as have that kind the authority.

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Speaker 1: So whether it was her saying if it were me,

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Speaker 1: I would do it criminally, or whether she was being

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Speaker 1: a little bit more careful and talking that's not necessarily

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Speaker 1: about the criminal laws, but regulations that govern the workplace

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Speaker 1: problems that happened in that office. I'm not sure, but

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Speaker 1: you know, I think it's possible that that's more what's

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Speaker 1: going on here. Thanks for being on the show. Jennifer.

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Speaker 1: That's former federal prosecutor Jennifer Rogers, who teaches at Columbia

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Speaker 1: Law School. The government is still seeking to hold hundreds

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Speaker 1: of people accountable for the attack. More than seven people

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Speaker 1: have been charged with a variety of crimes from the insurrection,

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Speaker 1: ranging from illegal parading to assaulting police officers. Most have

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Speaker 1: pleaded not guilty, setting up the potential for a swell

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Speaker 1: of trials this year. There's also the question of whether

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Speaker 1: the former president or his closest allies will be criminally charged. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: Trump is fighting half a dozen civil suits for his

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Speaker 1: role on the events, and at least four were filed

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Speaker 1: by more than a dozen police officers who say they

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Speaker 1: suffered physical and emotional injuries in the riot, including two

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Speaker 1: that were filed just this week. Joining me is Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: Legal reporter Eric Larson. Eric tell us about the latest lawsuits. So,

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Speaker 1: the latest lawsuit to be filed comes from a Capitol

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Speaker 1: Police officer named Marcus Moore. He's worked with the Capitol

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Speaker 1: Police for ten years, and of course he was there

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Speaker 1: on January six. He is accusing Trump of being libel

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Speaker 1: for the physical and emotional injuries that he suffered that day,

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Speaker 1: and he says that the former president is responsible because

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Speaker 1: of the rhetoric that he had been putting out about

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Speaker 1: the election. The sake claims that it had been a

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Speaker 1: stolen election, and of course, the so called stop the

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Speaker 1: Steel rally on January six, before the insurrection, and also

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Speaker 1: Trump's failure to try to stop the insurrection as it

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Speaker 1: was playing out on TV. All of that combined, Iter

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Speaker 1: Moore says, this makes Trump responsible for his his injuries.

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Speaker 1: And you know, on the same day that the suit

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Speaker 1: was filed, another suit was filed against Trump by two

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Speaker 1: other police officers with the Metropolitan Police Department, those officers

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Speaker 1: there in Washington, d C. Who of course had to

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Speaker 1: respond to the attack on Congress because the National Guard

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Speaker 1: wasn't there, So a lot of those Metropolitan Police officers

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Speaker 1: were also injured in this lawsuit. Makes it four four

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Speaker 1: lawsuits altogether by police officers against Trump. He's hints at

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Speaker 1: perhaps a conspiracy because he said the protesters were armed

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Speaker 1: and organized, they acted as though they knew the capital's vulnerabilities. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's right, and we've seen this in some of the

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Speaker 1: other claims that have been filed, including by members of

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Speaker 1: Congress who sued Trump over what happened that day. And

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Speaker 1: they point out that some of these attackers, including many

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Speaker 1: of the sort of right wing militia types from the

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Speaker 1: Proud Boys and the Post Keepers and whatnot, that when

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Speaker 1: they entered the building through broken windows. This police officers

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Speaker 1: a noted that they seem to be running past obvious

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Speaker 1: interior windows that they might have tried to break through

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Speaker 1: and went straight instead too. Very specific windows that the

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Speaker 1: officer points out were among the very few that had

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Speaker 1: not been reinforced during a recent remodeling of the Capital

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Speaker 1: where they reinforced over six hundred interior windows to make

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Speaker 1: them resistance bullets and things like that, And some of

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Speaker 1: these windows were left out of that program because they

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Speaker 1: weren't able to actually manage those particular windows, and they

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Speaker 1: seem to know exactly which one they could easily break

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Speaker 1: and jump through, according to this officer, So he didn't

435
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 1: really say how he thinks they knew. But of course

436
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,879
Speaker 1: there have been plenty of people who have speculated that

437
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 1: even some members of Congress, Trump supporting members of Congress

438
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:48,440
Speaker 1: may have somehow coordinated with these people. Of course, that

439
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,919
Speaker 1: suspicions and allegations. That hasn't been determined, but that seems

440
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 1: to be what he's hinting at here. So how does

441
00:25:56,160 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 1: this Capital police officer claim in his lawsuit that Trump

442
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:05,880
Speaker 1: is responsible for the insurrection? So he claims that Trump

443
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:09,119
Speaker 1: incited the riot that ultimately led to his physical and

444
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:13,160
Speaker 1: emotional injuries. Uh, and we can you know, you can

445
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,919
Speaker 1: point to this stop the Steel rally that happened just

446
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:19,879
Speaker 1: before um the attack on Congress, where the people he

447
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,960
Speaker 1: was speaking to left that rally and went straight to

448
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:27,200
Speaker 1: the Capitol and it assaulted it. So they just sort

449
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,199
Speaker 1: of draw this line from from Trump claiming that the

450
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,440
Speaker 1: election was stolen falsely. I think he claimed it would

451
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,439
Speaker 1: be stolen even before the election took place. So he

452
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:40,360
Speaker 1: was telling people that literally democracy was going to be

453
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:44,120
Speaker 1: destroyed if they didn't do something about it. So when

454
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 1: you say those kind of words, then maybe this officer

455
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 1: is saying, well, what do you expect is going to happen?

456
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,400
Speaker 1: Of course, they're going to try to save democracy because

457
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 1: that's what they think they need to do. Of course,

458
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,840
Speaker 1: this is just alleged, has not been proven that Trump

459
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,199
Speaker 1: insided the riot, but this is this is certainly what

460
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 1: this officer's claimed. He talks about a member of Congress

461
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:07,919
Speaker 1: who you know, almost had a heart attack, but he

462
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 1: doesn't name that member of Congress. No, he doesn't name

463
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,360
Speaker 1: this number of Congress in the complaint. But just when

464
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 1: he's describing what happened to him, that day and uh,

465
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:21,680
Speaker 1: the hours that he was involved in protecting those lawmakers.

466
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 1: He points out that they had to evacuate the lawmakers

467
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,640
Speaker 1: to an interior room and that one of the lawmakers

468
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 1: began experiencing chest pains and that this officer who sued

469
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 1: had to put off the lawmaker on a swivel you know,

470
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 1: office chair and roll him through the capital to safety.

471
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,160
Speaker 1: UM doesn't say who that was. We don't know who

472
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:44,879
Speaker 1: it was, but you know, it's just one moment that

473
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 1: the officer described including he also describes how before uh,

474
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,680
Speaker 1: you know, they they moved lawmakers. They were he was

475
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 1: part of a group of officers protecting an interior door

476
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 1: leading to the House chamber and that they were physically assaulted.

477
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 1: They are crushed up against the wall by protesters. The

478
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:07,199
Speaker 1: protesters were yelling to take their guns, kill them with

479
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 1: their own guns. They you know, clearly were afraid for

480
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 1: their lives. Um, they didn't end up getting his gun.

481
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,879
Speaker 1: We don't know exactly, you know, how they escaped that situation,

482
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 1: but they did so. Clearly the officer was pretty terrified

483
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:25,199
Speaker 1: for his life. Do they make demands for damages? Do

484
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,639
Speaker 1: they name numbers? No, there are no numbers. Here. So

485
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,920
Speaker 1: we're not exactly sure how much financial damages they might

486
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 1: be seeking if they do prevail in these cases. But

487
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 1: you know, all told, there are you know, over a

488
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 1: dozen officers who are plaintiffs in these four lawsuits that

489
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 1: have been filed over the last year by law enforcements.

490
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 1: And you know, you can imagine how these kinds of

491
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,480
Speaker 1: damages can balloon pretty easily. You could see it getting

492
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 1: into the millions of dollars that allowed these cases prevailed.

493
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 1: So Trump has responded to one of the suits. What

494
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 1: was his response? So, former President Trump has said that

495
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:09,360
Speaker 1: he is not liable for a variety of reasons. He

496
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 1: says that he's not vicariously liable, as he puts it,

497
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 1: for what happens when people he speaks to go on

498
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 1: and injure other people. Um, and he sort of phrased

499
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 1: it kind of interestingly interestingly. He said he didn't have

500
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:28,720
Speaker 1: a a legal duty of care, illegally enforceable duty of

501
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 1: care to his political rivals or anyone else who might

502
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 1: uh be confronted by people he speaks to. No, it

503
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 1: seems like it would be an uphill battle, you know,

504
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 1: to find Trump liabel in this case. Have you talked

505
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 1: to people about how hard this case will be to prove.

506
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 1: You know, I I've spoken to a few people who

507
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 1: say that some of these civil cases, they see the

508
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 1: criminal cases, you know, over seven people have been charged,

509
00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 1: you know, using all this evidence that was compiled at

510
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 1: the capital, that those cases seem a lot more straightforward.

511
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 1: The civil cases, you know, might be harder because, as

512
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 1: they point out, some of these experts point out, we

513
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 1: don't have a lot of case law when it comes

514
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 1: to insurrections. So uh, they're sort of going to have

515
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 1: to be creative and find ways to you know, back

516
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 1: their claims in court, and that it's it's just never

517
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 1: an eaty task try to make a case like this

518
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 1: when you just don't have a lot of law to

519
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 1: rely on. So we've never had a president be accused

520
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:31,280
Speaker 1: of inciting an insurrection before, So how do we know

521
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 1: what's protected by free speech? What is to incendiary to

522
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 1: be justifiably said at a rally like that, especially when

523
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 1: you know that the rally is filled with hundreds of

524
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 1: people who are your most art and supporters, the most angry,

525
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 1: people who really truly believe the election was stolen. You're

526
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 1: telling them in a fiery speech, you need to march

527
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 1: on the Capitol and stop Joe Biden from being certified.

528
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 1: You know, no, he did not say to invade the

529
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 1: capital and kill people. Of course, Donald Trump did not

530
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 1: say that. But they're going to argue that, you know,

531
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 1: two plus two equals four. I guess, but that that

532
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 1: that doesn't always hold up in course. So it'll be

533
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 1: really interesting to see what does happen with these cases,

534
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 1: because you can very easily see it getting tossed out right.

535
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 1: I mean, we have very strong free speech protections in

536
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 1: this country, and the people who did what they did

537
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 1: in the capital are responsible for their actions, and Trump

538
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 1: wasn't personally there. So it will be interesting to see

539
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 1: what happens. Do they name as defendants the groups like

540
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 1: the Proud Boys or the oath Keepers, so that lawsuits

541
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 1: filed this week by the Capitol police officer only named

542
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 1: Donald Trump is defense. There were lawsuits by members of

543
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 1: Congress as well, that's correct. If there's another civil suit

544
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 1: where they claim that a variety of co conspirators, including

545
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 1: those right wing groups and Trump and others, were respond

546
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 1: upible for what happened, and of course these lawmakers were, um,

547
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 1: you know, the target of this insurrection. So they believe

548
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 1: that they have you know, claims here, civil claims here

549
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 1: to make against people responsible for what happened that day.

550
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 1: You can imagine a similar situation in any sort of

551
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 1: you know, office building where a group of people were terrorized. Uh,

552
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 1: they might find claims against the people who terrorized. So

553
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 1: that's what they're doing here. It's a similar to some

554
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 1: of the lawsuits filed by the officers, but they do

555
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 1: name the right wing groups as well. Um, you know,

556
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 1: they connect Trump, for example, to the Proud Boys. They say,

557
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 1: you know, during one of the presidential debates with Biden,

558
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 1: when Trump was asked to condemn white supremacy, he didn't

559
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 1: really do so. Instead sort of told the Proud Boys

560
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 1: specifically to stand back and stand by, which everyone at

561
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:57,240
Speaker 1: the time thought was kind of strange thing to say. Um,

562
00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,080
Speaker 1: then lo and behold, the Proud Boys of their are

563
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 1: organized attacking the Capitol building. So you know, they're trying

564
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 1: to draw these connections to hold them all jointly responsible,

565
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 1: maybe not for all of the exact same actions, but

566
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 1: to allege that they were all co conspirators. Thanks Erk,

567
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 1: that's Bloomberg. Legal reporter Eric Larson and that's infince edition

568
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 1: of the Bloomberg Law Show. Remember you can always get

569
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 1: the latest legal news by listening to our Bloomberg Law podcast,

570
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 1: I'm Judie. Also, when you're listening to Bloomberg