WEBVTT - Part One: Ronald and Nancy Reagan: The Bastards Behind the AIDS Crisis 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:08.719 M Hey everybody, I'm Robert Evans and this is once 0:00:08.720 --> 0:00:11.080 again behind the Bastards the Shore. We tell you everything 0:00:11.160 --> 0:00:13.480 you don't know about the very worst people in all 0:00:13.520 --> 0:00:15.560 of history. And we're just allowed beep in the room. 0:00:15.680 --> 0:00:19.880 So if you look scared? Is everything okay? Everything's okay. 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:22.880 I'm sorry I had a nuclear device. Oh you need 0:00:22.920 --> 0:00:25.159 to leave those outside. The guy with the nuke is 0:00:25.200 --> 0:00:27.640 Andy Beckerman, our guest for today. Andy, how are you doing. 0:00:27.800 --> 0:00:31.120 I'm as good as anyone can be in this uh 0:00:31.560 --> 0:00:34.040 soupy nightmare we live in. Soupy is a good way 0:00:34.040 --> 0:00:36.360 to describe it. Now, Andy, I'm gonna apologize right now 0:00:36.440 --> 0:00:38.320 because we talked about what I was going to plug 0:00:38.360 --> 0:00:39.839 for you, and then there was that beep and it 0:00:40.040 --> 0:00:41.920 flew out of my mind. So why don't you plug 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:44.760 the thing that that we were? What's the thing why? 0:00:44.800 --> 0:00:47.880 I am a co host of the Wonderful Couples Therapy 0:00:48.040 --> 0:00:51.199 stand up show and podcast here on the Stuff Works Network. 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:55.720 A couple of therapy. We have stand ups who are lovers, 0:00:55.760 --> 0:00:59.920 are best friends, or siblings do sets together about the relationship, 0:01:00.320 --> 0:01:02.680 and then on the podcast we bring the best sets 0:01:02.720 --> 0:01:05.920 to you and your coast and that is Naomi Pagan. Yeah, 0:01:05.920 --> 0:01:10.200 from your episode he did about all the fringe Nazis. Yeah, 0:01:10.200 --> 0:01:12.520 they're the non Nazi pieces of ship behind Hitler. She 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:15.160 was wonderful and I'm excited to talk with you today. 0:01:15.840 --> 0:01:19.280 If I can push past the rage, it's a comedy. Well, 0:01:19.920 --> 0:01:22.160 the good thing about today is that it'll be a 0:01:22.319 --> 0:01:25.240 rage that's different from the rage that you're feeling about 0:01:25.280 --> 0:01:27.200 everything in the news. I don't think so I have 0:01:27.200 --> 0:01:30.120 a personal stake in this story, I believe. Well, yeah, 0:01:30.160 --> 0:01:33.560 but like, okay, so where this is the day after 0:01:33.600 --> 0:01:36.479 the Kavanaugh hearing, So so everybody's pretty angry, and this 0:01:36.560 --> 0:01:39.760 is a thing to be angry about. That's involves a 0:01:39.800 --> 0:01:44.559 lot of the same people, but it's slightly in the past. Sure, 0:01:44.640 --> 0:01:47.360 I don't know. I believe when all this was going on, 0:01:47.400 --> 0:01:52.480 I was watching Transformers in my you know, babysitters living room. Yeah, yeah, 0:01:52.480 --> 0:01:54.720 we are. We're talking about a story from the eighties, 0:01:54.760 --> 0:01:58.120 the story of the Reagans in the AIDS crisis, um 0:01:58.160 --> 0:02:00.840 and the death of Optimist Prime. Well that is going 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:03.800 to play a role here. So yeah, we When I 0:02:03.840 --> 0:02:05.440 started reaching this, I expected it was going to be 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:09.519 a pretty straightforward episode about how homophobia and religious fundamentalism 0:02:09.560 --> 0:02:11.720 in the halls of American power led to an executive 0:02:11.840 --> 0:02:14.600 branch that fiddled while thousands of gay people died of 0:02:14.639 --> 0:02:19.639 a horrible disease. The story I uncovered was that, but 0:02:19.760 --> 0:02:23.160 also somehow even more offensive than that. It was somehow 0:02:23.200 --> 0:02:25.160 more frustrating in the story I thought I was going 0:02:25.200 --> 0:02:30.320 to be telling. So great, Yeah, I guess. Roller coaster, Yeah, 0:02:30.520 --> 0:02:33.440 roller coaster from nothing but trouble. You know, the one 0:02:33.480 --> 0:02:37.800 that grinds you up into bones. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:02:37.800 --> 0:02:40.320 that's exactly what we're going to do today. It's the 0:02:40.400 --> 0:02:44.000 murder coaster, Yeah, from nothing but trouble. It's the opposite 0:02:44.080 --> 0:02:47.040 of self care. That's today. So let's let's get into 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:48.720 it first. I'd like to start with, like, what what 0:02:48.760 --> 0:02:51.040 do you know about Reagan's response to the AIDS epidemic. 0:02:51.680 --> 0:02:55.640 I know that he ignored it for as long as possible, 0:02:56.680 --> 0:03:00.040 that they labeled at grids at first, so that it 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:05.160 could kind of cordon off every everyone who had AIDS 0:03:05.320 --> 0:03:07.920 at the or you know, HIV did even was there 0:03:07.960 --> 0:03:11.120 any kind of scientific connection I remember the last no, no, no, 0:03:11.200 --> 0:03:13.120 it seems like it started like that was just the 0:03:13.160 --> 0:03:15.160 doctors giving it their best name, because it wasn't that 0:03:15.280 --> 0:03:17.880 much later that they were like, no, no, actually AIDS 0:03:17.960 --> 0:03:19.280 is a better thing to call it, and like they 0:03:19.280 --> 0:03:22.640 can't like but it accrued other nicknames around the time, 0:03:23.360 --> 0:03:25.720 um that were even more offensive. So like grids was 0:03:26.200 --> 0:03:29.440 probably the most palatable nickname that had got before it 0:03:29.480 --> 0:03:32.680 started being called AIDS. But um, yeah, it was pretty 0:03:32.720 --> 0:03:36.160 it's pretty frustrating story. It was definitely uh yeah, I mean, 0:03:36.200 --> 0:03:37.920 let's just get into it. Um, I've got it all 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:41.800 broken down here from time or by time. So ninety 0:03:41.840 --> 0:03:43.960 eight is the first year that gay men in Western countries. 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:46.960 Sweden in the United States were the first countries where 0:03:47.040 --> 0:03:48.960 Westerners started to get sick with what would become known 0:03:49.000 --> 0:03:51.880 as aids. Uh. In nineteen eighty, when Ronald Reagan beat 0:03:51.960 --> 0:03:55.080 Jimmy Carter, only about a couple of dozen Americans less 0:03:55.080 --> 0:03:58.960 than thirty had perished quote unquote beat Jimmy Carter. Well, 0:03:59.200 --> 0:04:01.360 wasn't there some like I mean he did, but like 0:04:01.680 --> 0:04:05.080 the whole October surprise bs. Yeah, there was a lot 0:04:05.120 --> 0:04:07.640 of shadiness that was done during the election, some of 0:04:07.680 --> 0:04:09.800 which we're going to get into in a little bit, 0:04:10.320 --> 0:04:13.000 but it was a pretty clean sweep aids, Oh, we're 0:04:13.040 --> 0:04:15.160 gonna One of the things that's exciting to me about 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:17.440 this episode is the numerous opportunities will have to do 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:20.400 our Reagan voices. Well, can you read the whole thing 0:04:20.440 --> 0:04:25.159 into making voice That might get a little bit old, 0:04:25.640 --> 0:04:29.479 But I did two sentences. I think I picked the 0:04:29.560 --> 0:04:32.800 right moments to try my Reagan voice out. But you know, 0:04:32.839 --> 0:04:35.280 maybe we'll have us a Reagan on Reagan conversation because 0:04:35.279 --> 0:04:37.159 there's two sides of Reagan we're going to see in 0:04:37.200 --> 0:04:40.039 this episode, one of which is pretty sympathetic, it seems 0:04:40.040 --> 0:04:41.839 like a guy who could have dealt with this crisis 0:04:41.920 --> 0:04:44.520 in a reasonably woke manner, and one of which is 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:48.320 the Reagan that was actually president. Uh isn't the guy 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:53.320 that he betrayed everyone in sag Um during the McCarthy 0:04:53.360 --> 0:04:55.920 hearings and everything. Yeah yeah, but I mean a lot 0:04:56.000 --> 0:04:59.480 of people did that, including Khan, who was was also 0:04:59.520 --> 0:05:02.520 a gay man but also a piece of ship, total 0:05:02.600 --> 0:05:05.920 piece of ship. Isn't the character and Angels in America? Well, 0:05:05.920 --> 0:05:08.080 he was one of the guys who win. McCarthy was 0:05:08.360 --> 0:05:11.119 doing the house in an American Activities committee was asking people, 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:12.479 are you now or have you ever been a member 0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:16.719 of the Communist Party, so he was. Anyway, what we're 0:05:16.720 --> 0:05:18.600 getting so far, I can trace that. But I'm just 0:05:18.640 --> 0:05:22.599 saying you can trace the darkness back decades. You can monsters, 0:05:22.880 --> 0:05:24.760 you can trace the and I think the darkness that 0:05:24.800 --> 0:05:27.080 you can trace back with Reagan to that period is 0:05:27.279 --> 0:05:30.480 his not only to take any risks that hurt his career, 0:05:30.839 --> 0:05:32.560 because I really do think that comes down to it 0:05:32.600 --> 0:05:34.960 more than ideology in Reagan's case. But we'll see how 0:05:35.000 --> 0:05:36.719 you feel at the end of this. I'm gonna present 0:05:37.000 --> 0:05:39.640 all the evidence I have, um So. In June five, 0:05:40.480 --> 0:05:43.200 the CDC reported that five young homosexual men in Los 0:05:43.240 --> 0:05:46.520 Angeles had been treated for pneumo sisters karini, which is 0:05:46.600 --> 0:05:49.479 a like a fungal lung infection that can that's life 0:05:49.480 --> 0:05:51.360 threatening and it's only really found in people with very 0:05:51.440 --> 0:05:54.400 compromised immune systems. And we know now that this is 0:05:54.440 --> 0:05:56.240 one of those like you know, AIDS isn't what kills 0:05:56.279 --> 0:05:58.920 you when your immune system gets you know, destroyed. These 0:05:59.080 --> 0:06:01.480 little things that are always around us that normally we 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:04.240 don't get sick from. That's what's gets you and so right, 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:06.440 and they're in l A, which is a filthy town. 0:06:06.600 --> 0:06:11.080 So well, I mean, that's one of its charms. But yeah, 0:06:11.360 --> 0:06:14.640 you call it a charm. Uh. Two of these men 0:06:14.760 --> 0:06:16.960 had died by the time the CDC reported it, and 0:06:17.000 --> 0:06:19.960 on July four, the CDC reported eight more gay los 0:06:20.000 --> 0:06:23.000 angeleos had been treated for Composi sarcoma, which is a 0:06:23.080 --> 0:06:25.680 rare form of cancer that again only strikes people with 0:06:25.680 --> 0:06:27.520 crippled immune systems. So no one knew what it was 0:06:27.560 --> 0:06:29.800 at this point. Really, but doctors start to recognize the 0:06:29.839 --> 0:06:33.000 nineteen eight one something really weird is happening, specifically in 0:06:33.080 --> 0:06:35.840 like coastal cities and specifically to the gay populations, and 0:06:35.920 --> 0:06:39.839 what's going on culturally? In one what movies are hot? Ship? 0:06:40.240 --> 0:06:44.479 This isn't that far from Red Dawn, isn't wasn't that five? Yeah? Yeah, 0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:46.440 something like that. I said, yes, I have no I've 0:06:46.880 --> 0:06:48.800 no idea. I didn't prepare anything on the movies that 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:51.720 we're ready. But I'm guessing when to Dane Jones and 0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:56.279 Nina jonesph was what eighty two Star Wars was hot? 0:06:56.880 --> 0:06:59.839 People started dying from immuno deficiency. It was it was 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:03.000 beautiful era when we thought, boy, if we get three 0:07:03.040 --> 0:07:05.360 good Star Wars movies. I don't think anyone will ever 0:07:05.400 --> 0:07:07.719 ask for any more Star Wars movies. That'd be swell. 0:07:08.320 --> 0:07:11.440 Uh yeah, what a time. Anyway, doctors around the country 0:07:11.440 --> 0:07:13.800 gradually started to realize that something was wrong. Two hundred 0:07:13.840 --> 0:07:15.800 and thirty four people died from AIDS over the course 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:18.520 of nineteen eighty one. When did they like name it? 0:07:20.240 --> 0:07:22.400 That starts in like eight two, So like in nineteen 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:25.880 eighty one people die, President doesn't say anything. But at 0:07:25.880 --> 0:07:28.239 this point it's small enough that like most presidents probably 0:07:28.240 --> 0:07:30.280 wouldn't have addressed a thing that's like it's it's it's 0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:32.480 still really little at this point. But on May eleventh, 0:07:32.520 --> 0:07:35.640 nineteen eighty two, doctors identified the blood borne pathogen behind 0:07:35.680 --> 0:07:37.440 all these deaths. So they realized that they're not like 0:07:37.480 --> 0:07:40.920 a bunch of different things. There's one thing connecting these all. Uh. 0:07:40.920 --> 0:07:42.680 And they call the new disease as you mentioned, gay 0:07:42.720 --> 0:07:46.840 related immune deficiency syndrome so GRIDS. Eight hundred and fifty 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:50.440 three Americans died during nineteen eighty two, and a couple 0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:54.360 of months after that in June of June nineteen eighty 0:07:54.400 --> 0:07:56.160 two is when the term AIDS came into you. So 0:07:56.200 --> 0:08:00.200 the medical community corrected pretty quickly. They started off, you know, 0:08:00.280 --> 0:08:02.400 with the definitely bigoted position of like, well, let's just 0:08:02.960 --> 0:08:05.000 lock this down as a gay disease. But within a 0:08:05.040 --> 0:08:07.720 couple of months doctors were like, well, okay, that's not 0:08:07.760 --> 0:08:09.960 what's happening, and we've made a mistake and they corrected. 0:08:10.480 --> 0:08:12.640 But at this time, the more common names that were 0:08:12.800 --> 0:08:15.160 used were yet people called it the gay plague or 0:08:15.240 --> 0:08:18.400 gay cancer, like, so that was the more common term, 0:08:18.440 --> 0:08:22.800 and Grids definitely reinforced that attitude. That sways my go 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:29.240 to reference for a character who's a disgusting homophobe and 0:08:29.280 --> 0:08:34.320 also old he's got the gay pleg Grids will this 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:39.080 plague just came sweeping through the coasts. But by the way, 0:08:39.120 --> 0:08:42.360 not a lot of opportunities to to riff on. No, no, 0:08:42.400 --> 0:08:44.760 not really people dying of what turned out to be 0:08:44.800 --> 0:08:48.160 a horrific, horrific disease. I mean, it doesn't We don't 0:08:48.160 --> 0:08:49.679 have to riff because this would just be like a 0:08:49.720 --> 0:08:53.400 heartbreaking conversation where we're both emotionally exhausted at the end 0:08:53.400 --> 0:08:56.840 of it. Yeah, well, I mean that's life at this point, right. Yeah. 0:08:56.840 --> 0:08:58.960 The guiding principle of this podcast is that, like you 0:08:59.000 --> 0:09:01.400 have these horrible stories that are important that nobody's gonna 0:09:01.679 --> 0:09:03.280 after a week like this week, where like you hear 0:09:03.320 --> 0:09:05.319 about all this ship going on in our actual government 0:09:05.400 --> 0:09:06.920 right now, very few people are gonna sit down and 0:09:06.920 --> 0:09:08.560 be like, well, I'm going to read about you know, 0:09:08.600 --> 0:09:11.000 how the government ignored he AIDS epidemic. But it's important 0:09:11.040 --> 0:09:13.280 that people know this. So maybe if you you pull 0:09:13.320 --> 0:09:15.079 a little bit of frosting, make a couple of Reagan 0:09:15.160 --> 0:09:17.920 jokes and whatnot, do some accents and stuff, then people 0:09:18.000 --> 0:09:20.200 hear the story and it sticks in their head and 0:09:20.240 --> 0:09:23.080 they don't go home and drink bleach because they're just 0:09:23.120 --> 0:09:25.800 so sad. That's the goal I've got in my mind. 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:29.080 As Reagan sitting in his chair in the Oval office, 0:09:29.240 --> 0:09:33.000 just like shoveling jelly beans as into his mouth as 0:09:33.040 --> 0:09:38.000 his mind just deterior rates jelly bean today, like you 0:09:38.040 --> 0:09:40.679 can see the pieces of his brain like as dust 0:09:40.760 --> 0:09:44.839 like fly out of his ears in a trail. That's 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:46.360 the picture of my head right now. Well, now that 0:09:46.360 --> 0:09:51.400 we've lost the conservative listeners, no no, I mean this 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:53.760 was never going to be the episode that they grabbed onto. 0:09:53.840 --> 0:09:56.360 Do you have conservative listeners? I assume, so they leave 0:09:56.360 --> 0:09:59.959 really angry reviews. Whenever we talk about the Regans, Okay, 0:10:00.679 --> 0:10:02.520 I'll say, I'll say I'll give a real message of 0:10:02.520 --> 0:10:05.240 conservative listeners. There is an example in this podcast what 0:10:05.360 --> 0:10:08.200 we're talking about about a Christian, very far right wing 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:12.199 conservative who was a legitimate hero of the AIDS epidemic. 0:10:12.480 --> 0:10:15.560 So we're gonna be giving his story alongside Reagan's. So 0:10:15.600 --> 0:10:19.720 we're not biased on this, like we're not based. Yeah, 0:10:20.120 --> 0:10:22.400 we're all biased, but you can talk about how the 0:10:22.440 --> 0:10:24.280 Reagans act, and you can talk about how other people 0:10:24.320 --> 0:10:26.960 who were even more extreme in their beliefs still did 0:10:27.040 --> 0:10:29.360 the right thing during the epidemic, which I think is 0:10:29.400 --> 0:10:31.920 important because like, people are gonna believe things that I 0:10:31.920 --> 0:10:33.800 don't like no matter what. It doesn't mean you have 0:10:33.840 --> 0:10:36.760 to ignore hundreds of thousands of people dying of disease. Well, 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:38.600 I think what's interesting is there is a time in 0:10:38.760 --> 0:10:43.560 our country where conservative people there was some kind of 0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:47.840 moral compass attached to their existence, whereas now if you 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:50.920 are on the right wing, I really do feel like 0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:52.840 at this point you knew who Trump was when you 0:10:52.920 --> 0:10:56.920 voted for him. He was not unapologetic about being a 0:10:57.000 --> 0:11:00.320 racist and a white supremacist and a monster and bounced 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:04.320 his candidacy by calling Mexicans rapists. You knew who he 0:11:04.440 --> 0:11:06.360 was when you voted for him. I don't think you 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:09.560 have an excuse anymore. Maybe during the Reagan era. Yeah, well, 0:11:09.600 --> 0:11:11.680 the Reagan era was really the first time we start 0:11:11.760 --> 0:11:13.480 to see a number of things that are now sort 0:11:13.520 --> 0:11:15.800 of hallmarks of the right wing. For one thing, it 0:11:15.920 --> 0:11:19.800 was the first time that conservative Evangelical Christians voted as 0:11:19.800 --> 0:11:24.160 a group for a conservative candidate, because most Evangelical Christians 0:11:24.160 --> 0:11:27.240 had voted for Carter in the election prior, and Carter 0:11:27.400 --> 0:11:29.720 had disappointed them, mainly by the fact that he kind 0:11:29.720 --> 0:11:31.520 of he governed as more of a moderate because he's 0:11:31.600 --> 0:11:33.280 he's the same guy he didn't like, you know, he 0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:36.080 opposed abortion personally, but he didn't like push against it 0:11:36.160 --> 0:11:38.280 or anything like that. He's an empathetic person. I mean, 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:44.600 he built houses, building houses for having at for humanity. 0:11:45.400 --> 0:11:47.400 So they backed him, but they wound up going with 0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:51.160 Reagan during the nineteen election. And so it's one of 0:11:51.200 --> 0:11:54.120 the things that I think is important to recognize now 0:11:54.240 --> 0:11:58.000 since we're talking about like the past, is how weird 0:11:58.120 --> 0:12:01.240 Reagan's campaign was for the time because again, for most 0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:04.439 of American history, different Christian denominations had voted for different parties. 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:06.520 It was that like the first like big tent kind 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:10.480 of yeah, Republican Athletics voted one way, Protestants voted another way. 0:12:10.760 --> 0:12:13.600 Nobody really cared what the Quakers did, but you know, 0:12:13.640 --> 0:12:16.480 they made really good butter um. And that was politics 0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:18.280 for a couple of hundred years in America. So this 0:12:18.400 --> 0:12:20.000 but this is the beginning of like big tent, that 0:12:20.080 --> 0:12:22.040 idea that like, and this is the beginning of the 0:12:22.120 --> 0:12:26.520 Christian right voting with the Republican Party. So yeah, Ronald 0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:29.600 Reagan was this guy who was the first conservative to 0:12:29.600 --> 0:12:32.000 really effectively reach out to the evangelical right. But he 0:12:32.040 --> 0:12:34.400 was also a TV and movie star and a former 0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:37.800 governor of California. He spent most of his life in Hollywood, 0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:41.000 around Hollywood movie stars. There's people he socialized with, and 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:43.760 so he and Nancy Reagan had numerous gay friends in 0:12:43.800 --> 0:12:46.520 their early life, including the closeted film star Rock Hudson. 0:12:46.880 --> 0:12:50.199 During the Kennedy years, California Republicans started preparing Ronald Reagan 0:12:50.280 --> 0:12:52.320 for his first political foray. They kind of picked him 0:12:52.320 --> 0:12:54.400 before he was even governor, And like, this guy is 0:12:54.480 --> 0:12:58.320 someone who we can wedge into power. Since Ronald Reagan 0:12:58.360 --> 0:13:00.480 was gonna be getting into politics, the people sort of 0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:02.360 grooming him for this new that Nancy Reagan was going 0:13:02.400 --> 0:13:04.320 to need a very carefully crafted look if she was 0:13:04.360 --> 0:13:07.199 going to be eventually a first lady. So she wound 0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:09.599 up hiring a bunch of fashion designers and whatnot to 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:11.360 kind of help her craft a look, and one of 0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:14.560 them was a very famous gay fashion designer named Jimmy Galanos. 0:13:14.920 --> 0:13:19.280 Working with Jimmy thrust Nancy deeper into Los Angeles's homosexual community, 0:13:19.480 --> 0:13:21.679 and she made a lot of friends. She was regularly 0:13:21.720 --> 0:13:24.360 seen quote on the arm of a guy named Jerry Zipkin, 0:13:24.400 --> 0:13:27.400 who was a gay real estate air and socialite. News 0:13:27.400 --> 0:13:31.440 clippings at the time refer to him as I don't know, 0:13:31.520 --> 0:13:32.920 I just try to put a picture in my head 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:35.400 of like, you know, it's weird. I tried to research 0:13:35.440 --> 0:13:37.760 this guy because like, you can't find out much about him. 0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:39.560 Articles at the time will refer to him as a 0:13:39.600 --> 0:13:42.360 popular social escort, which is apparently a thing that used 0:13:42.360 --> 0:13:44.320 to exist to where like women would want to go 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:46.320 out and go to parties and events and their husband 0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:49.040 wouldn't be available and Jerry was a prominent guy that 0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:51.600 everybody knew was gay, even though it wasn't really talked about. 0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:53.960 So like, if he's with your wife at the opening 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:56.280 of a gallery at a movie premiere, it's fine, you know, 0:13:56.320 --> 0:13:59.800 it's Jerry's he's with Jerry. I'm imagine like thick glasses 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:03.439 frames with like tinted lenses. It's the thick frames are 0:14:03.440 --> 0:14:06.320 what I get from the name Jerry. The tinted lenses 0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:09.680 are all zipkin. Yes, it's it's both parts of his 0:14:09.760 --> 0:14:12.560 name complete my belief of his Look, we're not gonna 0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:14.720 look that up. We're just gonna keep that in our heads. 0:14:15.000 --> 0:14:17.320 So Nancy and Ronald also became friends with Roy Kohen 0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:19.640 around this time in the sixties. Cone was, as we said, 0:14:19.720 --> 0:14:24.160 kind of a fiercely anti communist lawyer. Uh. Yeah, he 0:14:24.200 --> 0:14:25.880 was a big fixer. He was a big influence on 0:14:25.920 --> 0:14:28.720 Donald Trump in the early nineties. They were very close, 0:14:28.720 --> 0:14:30.720 and he was also a close advisor to Ronald Reagan. 0:14:31.280 --> 0:14:34.960 Fire just a phrase for someone who like gets people 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:37.320 murdered and blackmailed and all that kind of stuff. No, 0:14:37.400 --> 0:14:39.160 I've used a number of fixtures in my career. When 0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:42.840 I've been working in war zones. They're people who basically 0:14:43.000 --> 0:14:45.800 like know wherever you are better than you and help 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:47.360 you do like you like I need I have this 0:14:47.400 --> 0:14:49.320 goal in Los Angeles and I and he's like, Oh, 0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:51.000 we're you gonna need to talk to this person, this person, 0:14:51.040 --> 0:14:52.520 this person, they can help you out, or like in 0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:54.680 d C, it's the same thing, like, oh, well we 0:14:54.720 --> 0:14:58.560 can make this happen. Like fixing is a morally neutral term. 0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:01.120 It's gotten like we're talking about Trump's fixers in the 0:15:01.120 --> 0:15:03.080 news right now, so it's very shady. But there are 0:15:03.120 --> 0:15:05.200 just fixers whose whole job is like, oh, you're trying 0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:07.240 to accomplish this goal, these are the people you need 0:15:07.280 --> 0:15:10.640 to meet. This the early MGM fixer guy, I forget 0:15:10.640 --> 0:15:12.640 his name, but I don't know. Yeah, there's been there's 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:14.880 a lot of fixers throughout history. Sometimes they're just called 0:15:14.920 --> 0:15:18.920 advisors or aids or whatever throughout history. Yeah, that would 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:20.880 be a fun thing to do. So Roy Kan was 0:15:20.920 --> 0:15:23.160 a famous fixer in this period. He was a closeted 0:15:23.200 --> 0:15:24.840 gay man. It's impossible to say one way or the 0:15:24.840 --> 0:15:27.880 other if the Reagans knew about his sexuality. We do 0:15:27.960 --> 0:15:30.240 know they went to a ton of parties with Roy Khan. 0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:33.040 And we do know how Roy Khan behaved at parties 0:15:33.080 --> 0:15:35.160 because some of his friends wrote about those nights. So 0:15:35.200 --> 0:15:37.360 I'm gonna quote now from a Life article titled The 0:15:37.440 --> 0:15:43.000 Snarling Death of Roy m Khne spoilers. At his parties, 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:44.960 he'd hould people up to their feet to sing God 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:47.720 Bless America, evidently his favorite song, even though he was 0:15:47.760 --> 0:15:50.320 a lifelong opera goer. Roy's idea of a good time 0:15:50.360 --> 0:15:52.440 was to sing patriotic ditties at a piano bar in 0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:55.560 Provincetown on Cape Cod. Our friend recalled going home early 0:15:55.600 --> 0:15:58.280 one summer evening and on inquiring the next morning about 0:15:58.280 --> 0:16:00.360 the rest of the night, being told we else stood 0:16:00.360 --> 0:16:02.880 around the piano Roy saying three choruses of God Bless 0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:05.000 America and got a heart on and went home to bed. 0:16:05.080 --> 0:16:07.720 What is he the founder of the capital steps. He's 0:16:07.800 --> 0:16:10.800 just a good American singing the national anthem and drunk 0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:14.800 as hell with a really big erection. And that's Roy Kone. 0:16:15.000 --> 0:16:19.640 How big I mean they noticed it and they commented 0:16:19.680 --> 0:16:24.280 on it in the sixties, so I'm gonna guess they're significant. 0:16:25.080 --> 0:16:27.600 I feel like there may be like you know, you know, 0:16:27.640 --> 0:16:30.360 like people never speak ill of the dead. Like when 0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:32.480 Nixon died, everyone was like, what a great guy, even 0:16:32.480 --> 0:16:35.280 though he was just like rat fuck little. He was 0:16:35.320 --> 0:16:37.560 a drunk man with his hand on the button, yeah, 0:16:37.600 --> 0:16:40.800 screaming the inward regular. So I bet like they're like, oh, 0:16:40.840 --> 0:16:42.600 he's dead, let's just talk about how big a dick 0:16:42.640 --> 0:16:44.280 he had. I don't. I don't think he was dead 0:16:44.280 --> 0:16:47.120 when this story was, but I don't really know. The 0:16:47.120 --> 0:16:49.880 snarling death was after he was dead. But like this anecdote, 0:16:49.880 --> 0:16:52.080 I think came from an earlier interview. Um, it was 0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:54.680 hard to tell. Uh you imagine in an interview where 0:16:54.680 --> 0:16:57.960 you're just like, and man, the size of that guy's cock. 0:16:58.160 --> 0:16:59.560 What are you telling you about the time I saw 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:05.560 this man's direction. Roy Cohne was hard for America. Okay, 0:17:05.040 --> 0:17:07.560 that was a slogan when he was trying to like 0:17:07.840 --> 0:17:11.400 when he was running for office himself. Hard hard for America. 0:17:11.480 --> 0:17:14.080 And it was like a penis shaped thing with like 0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:16.640 the American flag. I was gonna say that the lyrics 0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:20.040 of godless America written on the shaft. But different, you know, honest, 0:17:20.040 --> 0:17:22.840 men can can can interpret that differently, or like a 0:17:22.880 --> 0:17:25.840 constitution with someone writing on it, like you know instead 0:17:25.840 --> 0:17:29.720 of a quill, that it's a penis. If that's how 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:34.280 they'd signed. No, no, no, we're getting the family podcast. No, 0:17:34.400 --> 0:17:36.560 it's not at all, not in any way, shape or form. 0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:39.159 Don't let your kids listen to well, listen to some 0:17:39.200 --> 0:17:40.680 of this. Let your kids listen to the one about 0:17:40.680 --> 0:17:43.399 the East India tea company. That's important. Okay, So Nancy 0:17:43.440 --> 0:17:46.760 Reagan also desperately wanted Billy Haynes, a gay home decorator, 0:17:46.800 --> 0:17:49.440 to decorate her home. Um, he had decorated the home 0:17:49.440 --> 0:17:52.240 of some other favorite socialite who was sort of like 0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:55.640 he decorated the home of somebody that that Nancy really admired, 0:17:55.680 --> 0:17:57.200 and so she wanted this guy to do her house. 0:17:57.200 --> 0:17:59.320 But Nancy and Ronald did not have enough money at 0:17:59.320 --> 0:18:01.920 this point to hire the guy. So they had what 0:18:02.560 --> 0:18:06.080 they weren't rich. This is like, this is like sixty nine. 0:18:06.080 --> 0:18:09.360 I'm like, they have bed time for bonds. No, that's 0:18:09.359 --> 0:18:12.000 not that much money, man, bed time for bonzo. They 0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:14.159 were just low enough. On the toldham Pole that like 0:18:14.440 --> 0:18:16.960 he could be convinced to go into politics, he was 0:18:16.960 --> 0:18:19.280 not that biggest star. Should have got a better business manager. 0:18:19.560 --> 0:18:23.119 Well that's a fair point. Um, So Yeah, she wanted 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:25.359 this guy to decorate her house, but they couldn't afford it, 0:18:25.480 --> 0:18:27.400 so they hatched a cunning scheme to get the next 0:18:27.400 --> 0:18:29.720 best thing. So here's a quote from an article in 0:18:29.720 --> 0:18:32.000 The Advocate called Nancy in the Gaze that talks about 0:18:32.000 --> 0:18:34.080 how Nancy kind of finankled her way into kind of 0:18:34.119 --> 0:18:36.399 having this guy decorate her home without paying for it. 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:39.200 She and Ron soon began socializing with the gay couple. 0:18:39.240 --> 0:18:41.800 In nineteen sixty seven, when Reagan became governor of California, 0:18:41.800 --> 0:18:43.520 the victory party was held in the home of William 0:18:43.560 --> 0:18:45.600 Haynes and Jimmy Shields. Haynes is the guy that she 0:18:45.600 --> 0:18:48.280 wanted to decorate her house. Soon, Nancy used Jimmy Shields 0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:50.600 as partner as her shopping buddy. Still unable to afford 0:18:50.640 --> 0:18:52.760 the high prices and super swank of the Haynes look, 0:18:52.960 --> 0:18:55.000 she would take Jimmy along on a shopping junket and 0:18:55.000 --> 0:18:57.679 get his advice and use his articulate tastes. So she 0:18:57.760 --> 0:19:00.760 basically befriends the husband of the guy that she wants 0:19:00.840 --> 0:19:03.040 to decorate her house and just takes him shopping with 0:19:03.040 --> 0:19:05.960 her to get advice on stuff she's too cheap to hired. 0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:09.840 So there's a history of them exploiting gay men. Yeah, 0:19:09.880 --> 0:19:13.920 but in a friendly way. I don't know, friendly exploitation 0:19:14.240 --> 0:19:16.400 and maybe exploitation. They may have actually been buddies. I've 0:19:16.400 --> 0:19:18.120 read different things on it. Some of them say these 0:19:18.119 --> 0:19:19.800