WEBVTT - Michael Rapino 0:00:08.600 --> 0:00:12.520 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob left Stetts Podcast. 0:00:13.160 --> 0:00:17.760 My guest today is CEO and President of Blave Nation, 0:00:18.480 --> 0:00:21.799 one and only, Michael Rapino. Michael, good to have you 0:00:21.840 --> 0:00:26.439 on the podcast. You just announced this new effort, Vibe. 0:00:26.880 --> 0:00:28.840 What exactly is it? 0:00:28.920 --> 0:00:34.760 Biby is a destination event company. As you know you've 0:00:34.760 --> 0:00:36.720 probably read over the years, there's more and more of 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:40.559 these on location companies where they're kind of taking the 0:00:40.680 --> 0:00:45.720 current events doing a special package VIP. Maybe it's a 0:00:45.760 --> 0:00:48.400 destination to see Lionel Richie just in Cabbo for a 0:00:48.479 --> 0:00:52.120 thousand people. So anyway, you can kind of create above 0:00:52.159 --> 0:00:57.400 and beyond special experiences around an artist event. So it 0:00:57.440 --> 0:00:59.480 could be a current event, meaning we could do it 0:00:59.480 --> 0:01:02.760 at La La Lose and do a jet in a 0:01:02.840 --> 0:01:06.280 backstage and a VIP package. But most of it is 0:01:06.319 --> 0:01:09.840 trying to create destination events for artists and fans to 0:01:09.880 --> 0:01:12.440 have kind of an exceptional VIP experience. 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:18.040 So what is already booked for Vibe? 0:01:18.240 --> 0:01:20.920 Well, we got a few going on. We've got a 0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:25.680 hotel in can Kun, Mexico, Moon Palace. Luke Bryan the 0:01:25.720 --> 0:01:28.000 Grateful Dead have done it there where it's a kind 0:01:28.000 --> 0:01:31.440 of a three thousand limited package for three thousand people, 0:01:31.520 --> 0:01:36.920 take over the hotel special two days live performance just 0:01:36.920 --> 0:01:40.919 for those fans merchandise parties. We've got a couple ship 0:01:40.920 --> 0:01:43.640 ideas that we've been working on, Holy Ship, where you 0:01:43.640 --> 0:01:49.800 can go on to an Insomniac DC ship for three days. 0:01:49.880 --> 0:01:52.080 So you've seen some of these before where the artists 0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:55.840 take over the ship and kind of have that destination idea. 0:01:55.920 --> 0:01:58.840 So we've got three or four ship projects right now 0:01:58.880 --> 0:02:04.960 with DC Insomnia, got some Cabo Mexican, Luke Bryan, Grateful 0:02:05.000 --> 0:02:09.400 Dead Adventures, and now we've got Lallapalooza we launched today, 0:02:10.080 --> 0:02:13.600 and some of Vegas ideas that I think they'll launch 0:02:13.680 --> 0:02:19.640 this week around special Formula one concert VIP experiences, So 0:02:19.760 --> 0:02:23.120 just taking the experience VIP above and beyond what you 0:02:23.160 --> 0:02:27.080 currently can buy at a typical concert and delivering a 0:02:27.160 --> 0:02:28.800 higher end experience to the fan. 0:02:30.200 --> 0:02:34.440 You know, just staying on this. It appears most people 0:02:34.480 --> 0:02:39.000 don't know, but the most expensive tickets go first on 0:02:39.080 --> 0:02:42.120 most of these conferences. Is there any limit to what 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:45.600 people will pay for a VIP experience? 0:02:47.280 --> 0:02:49.560 You know, I think it's all new territory. You were right, 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:54.240 the house always sells front to back, so you've never 0:02:54.360 --> 0:02:56.640 heard me say, you know, I can't sell the front, 0:02:56.639 --> 0:03:00.440 but the back sold out. So it's always front back. 0:03:01.080 --> 0:03:03.080 And what you see a lot of artists doing today, 0:03:03.400 --> 0:03:05.800 even though they get a little bit of press from it, 0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:08.000 is charge a bit more for the front. So the 0:03:08.120 --> 0:03:10.000 real theory is you can actually charge a bit less 0:03:10.000 --> 0:03:13.040 on the back and make sure that last row does 0:03:13.080 --> 0:03:17.040 sell out. But right now, Bob, we've seen coming out 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:20.760 of COVID price resistance is not We haven't seen it 0:03:20.800 --> 0:03:25.000 anywhere yet. As crazy as some of the secondary stuff 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:28.320 you see online where there are two three hundred times 0:03:28.360 --> 0:03:31.880 what a face value is. Those things are selling out instantly, 0:03:32.240 --> 0:03:35.240 So we have not seen yet. I don't think the 0:03:35.280 --> 0:03:39.240 top end of what does a concert VIP platinum experience 0:03:39.320 --> 0:03:42.880 look like if you want to go see that show. 0:03:42.960 --> 0:03:44.880 I think this is new. You know, as I say 0:03:44.880 --> 0:03:47.600 to my team, we've kind of been operating like American 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:50.720 airlines for a long time. One price not that much 0:03:50.720 --> 0:03:54.440 of a variance from top to bottom. Probably a warm 0:03:54.480 --> 0:03:58.080 beer and a cold hot dog and good luck. But 0:03:58.160 --> 0:04:02.240 the idea that a concert is a memorable experience and 0:04:02.240 --> 0:04:06.800 and fans will will pay for an upgraded experience all fans, 0:04:06.880 --> 0:04:09.480 not just this isn't just for the rich the one 0:04:09.600 --> 0:04:11.480 or two times a year you'll go to that show. 0:04:12.200 --> 0:04:15.320 Our fans want a better experience, they want a higher 0:04:15.400 --> 0:04:17.120 end experience, and they'll pay for it if we can 0:04:17.160 --> 0:04:17.680 deliver it. 0:04:19.200 --> 0:04:22.160 Okay. Needless to say, ticket Master is a hot topic 0:04:22.600 --> 0:04:26.440 in the news and Washington DC. You are literally at 0:04:26.440 --> 0:04:31.520 the epicenter, So let's kind of drill down explain for 0:04:31.640 --> 0:04:37.159 the average person how ticket fees are established. 0:04:38.279 --> 0:04:42.719 Yeah, I'd say it's definitely been the year to start 0:04:42.760 --> 0:04:45.320 talking about this because it's been As you you point 0:04:45.360 --> 0:04:48.240 out on your newsletter, you kind of understand the inner work. 0:04:48.320 --> 0:04:51.240 So if you step back in the simplest context, a 0:04:51.360 --> 0:04:54.720 venue wherever you are decides who is going to be 0:04:54.760 --> 0:04:58.160 their ticketing company. Generally that venue and the irony of 0:04:58.480 --> 0:05:01.520 this idea that we have control generally that venue is 0:05:01.560 --> 0:05:05.080 a billionaire that is building a billion dollar plus arena 0:05:05.440 --> 0:05:10.320 or stadium, SOFI stadium here in LA. You name the place, 0:05:10.560 --> 0:05:13.680 the San Francisco New Arena, So you're the you're you 0:05:13.720 --> 0:05:17.240 have a sports team generally, and you call us, you 0:05:17.320 --> 0:05:19.960 call seak Geek, you call Access and say I want 0:05:19.960 --> 0:05:22.360 an RFP to be who's going to be the exclusive 0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:24.440 ticketing company for my business? 0:05:25.680 --> 0:05:27.880 Not not everybody knows what's an RFP is. 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:30.920 They're gonna they're gonna call all of us and say, 0:05:31.360 --> 0:05:33.240 we want you to bid on the rights to be 0:05:33.320 --> 0:05:38.120 the exclusive ticketing company for our venue. And generally ninety 0:05:38.120 --> 0:05:41.520 percent of time, here are the terms you're We don't 0:05:41.520 --> 0:05:45.320 get paid on season tickets. That's a big unknown to 0:05:45.360 --> 0:05:47.479 the industry. So we do all that one hundred and 0:05:47.480 --> 0:05:51.120 twenty five million tickets that are season tickets. Uh, we don't. 0:05:51.160 --> 0:05:53.440 We don't get paid on as a ticketing company. And 0:05:53.480 --> 0:05:56.159 you get paid on the single ticket, the the one 0:05:56.200 --> 0:05:59.640 off ticket for the game or the concert, and the 0:05:59.800 --> 0:06:03.280 van You then dictates how much of the ticket fee 0:06:03.279 --> 0:06:06.080 they're going to keep and how much they'll pay you, 0:06:06.560 --> 0:06:09.120 and how how big the ticket fee will be. And 0:06:09.160 --> 0:06:12.680 that's kind of the let's let's go a little bit slower, right. 0:06:13.080 --> 0:06:18.279 They stand out the RFP request request. We are basically bidding, Yes, 0:06:18.360 --> 0:06:21.880 what would typically be in that bid and what would 0:06:21.880 --> 0:06:26.360 the varying competitors put in the bid such that then 0:06:26.440 --> 0:06:28.159 you might choose one one or the other. 0:06:29.120 --> 0:06:33.400 Well, there's a there's a fundamental technology, basic program to it. 0:06:33.480 --> 0:06:38.160 Can you do these things for my team, my venue. 0:06:38.200 --> 0:06:42.960 Maybe it's multiple teams and and every team. Uh geez, 0:06:43.000 --> 0:06:45.719 we're dealing with the Clippers right now. That's a very 0:06:45.800 --> 0:06:50.280 technical r f P because Balmer and Microsoft background is 0:06:50.360 --> 0:06:54.359 very different. Are working with Mark Cuban in in Dallas. 0:06:54.400 --> 0:06:58.760 So it usually a technical basic basis to the to 0:06:58.839 --> 0:07:01.440 the to the bid what they want to get done 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:04.880 with that. With the ticketing company, they's got to work 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:07.240 with this CRM company, it's got to work with their 0:07:07.279 --> 0:07:09.520 food and beverage, it's got to work with their access, 0:07:10.360 --> 0:07:12.560 it's got to work with their charity. So they kind 0:07:12.560 --> 0:07:16.760 of a long technical spec on can your ticket company 0:07:16.920 --> 0:07:21.400 deliver all of these different needs we have amongst our businesses. 0:07:21.960 --> 0:07:26.400 That's the that's probably the fifty percent of it. Then 0:07:26.400 --> 0:07:28.120 the next part is going to be how are you 0:07:28.160 --> 0:07:30.880 going to how are you going to market and sell 0:07:31.120 --> 0:07:33.560 incremental tickets for us? How are you going to help 0:07:33.640 --> 0:07:36.760 us deliver our business? And again that's going to vary, Bob, 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:39.840 as you know, if you're the hot team that sells 0:07:39.840 --> 0:07:44.080 out in a minute, that's different. If you're the Phoenix 0:07:44.080 --> 0:07:47.000 hockey team, you're looking for the best marketing partner you 0:07:47.040 --> 0:07:49.640 can to help you sell tickets. So again it'll vary 0:07:50.000 --> 0:07:53.440 on how much the marketing and the and the marketplace 0:07:53.480 --> 0:07:56.880 you have matters to the team. And then let's call 0:07:56.920 --> 0:08:02.280 the final piece the financial. How much how low will 0:08:02.280 --> 0:08:05.720 you deliver the business for? Will you give us an 0:08:05.720 --> 0:08:10.160 advance against that a bonus? And is it three five years? 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:16.040 They'll they'll usually dictate those kind of terms. So it's technical, marketing, marketplace, 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:17.480 and then financial. 0:08:18.440 --> 0:08:23.480 Okay, most venues, if not all, do want an advance, 0:08:23.640 --> 0:08:24.520 isn't that correct? 0:08:25.800 --> 0:08:28.680 Yeah, most of them are going to ask for some 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:32.040 version of an advance or a bonus based on getting 0:08:32.040 --> 0:08:32.640 the contract. 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:36.559 Okay, And an advance would be recoupable and a bonus 0:08:36.600 --> 0:08:41.080 would not be. Yes, okay. So going back to where 0:08:41.120 --> 0:08:45.760 we were earlier, the venue is telling you how much 0:08:45.920 --> 0:08:49.720 the fee is going to be. Yes, yeah, the venue 0:08:49.800 --> 0:08:52.640 is going to define. You know, it's kind of evolved 0:08:52.679 --> 0:08:55.440 over the last five ten years. It used to be, 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:57.880 you know, when Fred was on your call. You know, 0:08:57.960 --> 0:09:00.160 it was easy in Fred's days. They would just say, 0:09:00.480 --> 0:09:03.280 you know, add another dollar to the service fee and 0:09:03.840 --> 0:09:07.200 we'll split it fifty to fifty. Today it's kind of 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:11.520 working backwards, where the venue says, I'll pay you three 0:09:11.600 --> 0:09:14.480 four dollars a ticket, and then we're going to keep 0:09:14.480 --> 0:09:16.640 all the upside and we're going to charge forty six 0:09:16.800 --> 0:09:21.240 thirty seven whatever the service fee is. So it's still evolving, 0:09:21.320 --> 0:09:24.920 but generally the net number is determined by the venue 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:27.400 because the venue has a net takeaway that they want 0:09:27.440 --> 0:09:30.480 to take home from the ticketing business, whether it's a 0:09:30.520 --> 0:09:38.199 percentage or whether it's a fee. Okay, and they established 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:44.160 it themselves and ticket Master has no negotiation with that 0:09:44.320 --> 0:09:45.920 to raise it or lower it. 0:09:46.520 --> 0:09:49.120 No, and again I'm you know, we can. We can 0:09:49.200 --> 0:09:51.280 come to the part where I am the venue Live Nation, 0:09:51.400 --> 0:09:53.280 so I can I can walk in that shoe later. 0:09:54.440 --> 0:09:57.280 But no, it is a you know, although it doesn't 0:09:57.640 --> 0:10:01.440 seem like it on Twitter at times, it's a competitive process. 0:10:01.480 --> 0:10:03.800 I mean, you have you know, we're just we just 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:07.160 lost the stadium in Washington. The seat geek. So what 0:10:07.240 --> 0:10:11.000 they ask for someone will pay, whether it's US AEG 0:10:11.920 --> 0:10:17.880 access to stub Hub seat geek. So if they want 0:10:17.880 --> 0:10:20.400 to pay someone two dollars and fifty cents a ticket, 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:22.880 I can go back and say no, I want four 0:10:23.320 --> 0:10:25.600 and I want the service fee to be lower, but 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:28.160 they'll go someone else will be standing next door to 0:10:28.160 --> 0:10:30.040 me that says we'll do it for two fifty and 0:10:30.120 --> 0:10:31.480 charge thirty six bucks. 0:10:31.640 --> 0:10:34.920 So okay, if I own an arena in a major market, 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:39.040 generally speaking, what is the advance in dollars? 0:10:41.679 --> 0:10:45.360 You know, on a it's the team part that's important 0:10:45.400 --> 0:10:49.199 that drives most of the economics. So could be a 0:10:49.320 --> 0:10:55.120 multi million dollar advance, anywhere from zero to ten million dollars, 0:10:55.160 --> 0:10:58.680 could be over for longer term contract. 0:10:59.800 --> 0:11:05.319 Okay, so they're telling you what the fee is going 0:11:05.400 --> 0:11:09.240 to be. But if someone is buying, let's focus on 0:11:09.320 --> 0:11:13.360 concert tickets, where most of the controversy is the fee 0:11:13.440 --> 0:11:17.520 is not the same for every ticket. Usually more expensive 0:11:17.559 --> 0:11:21.040 tickets have a higher fee. Can explain that. 0:11:21.240 --> 0:11:25.120 Yeah, I think historically it's been a percentage. If you 0:11:25.160 --> 0:11:29.520 look at Macro, the ticket percentage is somewhere in the 0:11:29.559 --> 0:11:32.640 twenty to twenty five percent on average, So you're right. 0:11:32.679 --> 0:11:35.640 If it's a ten dollars ticket, it's two fifty. If 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:38.040 it's a two hundred dollars ticket, it's twenty percent of that. 0:11:39.240 --> 0:11:43.080 Sometimes it can scale from twenty to maybe thirty thirty 0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:48.079 percent on the top end. But it's a percentage scaling 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:51.320 that's set out from the beginning, and it goes up 0:11:52.160 --> 0:11:53.320 as the ticket price goes up. 0:11:54.200 --> 0:11:57.840 Okay, so let's just say that you have round numbers 0:11:57.960 --> 0:12:01.880 and this would be extremely low. The fee is out 0:12:01.920 --> 0:12:05.160 of that ten dollars they are going to pay ticket 0:12:05.240 --> 0:12:09.760 Master a certain number which is negotiated in advance. Yes, 0:12:11.480 --> 0:12:15.760 and okay, so I buy a ticket. 0:12:15.400 --> 0:12:18.480 Which, by the way, because republic we say it loud, 0:12:18.880 --> 0:12:20.960 we would typically get two of that ten dollars. They 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:25.400 would get eight, right, which is the real unknown. Right, 0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:29.960 that's where the you know you you would assume because 0:12:30.040 --> 0:12:31.920 we have to take the punch that says it's the 0:12:32.000 --> 0:12:35.400 ticket Master service fee, that we get more of it. 0:12:35.440 --> 0:12:38.000 And that's the biggest kind of unknown to date. 0:12:38.600 --> 0:12:43.360 Okay, when I buy a ticket, there are multiple fees. 0:12:44.600 --> 0:12:47.800 There is you know, the convenience fee and other fees. 0:12:48.000 --> 0:12:53.000 So typically under this paradigm where you have given it 0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:56.640 advance to an arena, what would be all the fees 0:12:57.040 --> 0:13:00.600 in the ticket as a percentage? 0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:01.120 No? 0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:04.760 No, when you have negotiated with a building. We're using 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:07.439 the example of ten dollars, which is low, you get 0:13:07.520 --> 0:13:11.200 two dollars. Let's say but when the customer goes to 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:15.120 buy the ticket, there are more fees than ten dollars. 0:13:15.480 --> 0:13:16.880 There are additional fees. 0:13:16.960 --> 0:13:21.120 What are those could depend You could have a facility 0:13:21.160 --> 0:13:23.719 fee which the venue would charge. That would be all 0:13:23.720 --> 0:13:29.559 of their fee. So venues have a facility fee. Credit 0:13:29.640 --> 0:13:33.320 card fee is separate. That's a small percentage that is 0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:35.640 exactly what it is. It goes to the credit card company, 0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:38.920 and it might there might be or it might be 0:13:39.040 --> 0:13:43.160 dressed in a ordering fee which covers the ordering fee, 0:13:43.200 --> 0:13:46.400 which would be the credit card fee within that that 0:13:46.480 --> 0:13:50.800 might be three four percent as an ordering fee where 0:13:51.480 --> 0:13:54.400 covers a credit card fee, and the venue and ticket 0:13:54.400 --> 0:13:56.960 master would split that on that same kind of percentage. 0:13:57.640 --> 0:14:01.040 So facility fee, ordering fee, service fee would be your 0:14:01.080 --> 0:14:02.720 three typical fees. 0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:06.679 And since the building is really at the heart of this, 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:10.240 why would there be a facility fee in addition? 0:14:12.960 --> 0:14:16.880 I think that's just another way the venues have looked 0:14:16.880 --> 0:14:18.920 to say, how can I get some revenue per ticket? 0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:21.280 And we could. We're going to come later to whether 0:14:21.320 --> 0:14:23.160 this is just or not, but I'm so now we'll 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:26.000 just talk to the technical part. But I think it's 0:14:26.000 --> 0:14:28.760 a revenue stream that the venues put in place years 0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:31.720 ago to gather revenue per ticket. 0:14:32.280 --> 0:14:35.400 And that is determined in advance. And is that a 0:14:35.440 --> 0:14:36.400 percentage number? 0:14:36.480 --> 0:14:37.960 Now that's the venue add on. 0:14:38.640 --> 0:14:40.840 That would be with the venue of charge, and that 0:14:40.880 --> 0:14:45.440 would be across all events sports, concerts, rodio. 0:14:46.280 --> 0:14:49.320 Generally. Yes, you know, again there's always going to be 0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:51.400 someone going to tweet exceptions to the rules to all 0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:54.360 of this, but yes, in generality, generally you would have 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:56.640 a facility fee on all your events. If you were 0:14:56.720 --> 0:14:57.840 charging facility fees. 0:14:58.320 --> 0:15:03.160 Okay, using this ten dollars, ticket master gets two dollars. 0:15:03.920 --> 0:15:07.000 Doesn't the promoter also share in the fees? 0:15:07.880 --> 0:15:12.320 No? Now you know this is like pulling one block 0:15:12.360 --> 0:15:15.640 of jingle right, where does one? Where? Does? Where? Does 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:19.600 one get paid? Typically the venue is paying the promoter, 0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:23.080 so you can in theory say did he pay the venue? 0:15:23.400 --> 0:15:25.320 Did he pay the promoter out of his eight dollars, 0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:27.120 or did he pay it out of his facility fee, 0:15:27.200 --> 0:15:28.800 or did he pay it out of his parking fee? 0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:34.440 But generally a venue has to incentivize the promoter to 0:15:34.520 --> 0:15:38.480 bring shows, so there would be a promoter fee at 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:41.080 some sometimes that the venue would pay that would come 0:15:41.080 --> 0:15:43.840 out of some version of their of their fees or 0:15:43.880 --> 0:15:47.680 their revenue line, but we don't see it. And you know, 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:49.760 when you're doing a settlement at the end of the night, 0:15:50.160 --> 0:15:53.160 the promoter doesn't have a cut of the fees. That's 0:15:53.520 --> 0:15:56.640 that goes to the venue direct, and then whatever rent 0:15:56.680 --> 0:15:58.800 and venue deal you have with the venue is separate. 0:16:00.600 --> 0:16:04.680 Okay, but the rent in the there's rent, right, But 0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:09.240 you're also saying there's another line item where essentially the 0:16:09.320 --> 0:16:13.280 building is paying you to have your concert in that building. 0:16:14.040 --> 0:16:16.520 They're called rebates. You've probably heard of them over time. 0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:19.200 You know. The way the venue would work is if 0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:22.400 you have a big arena and probably three arenas maybe 0:16:22.440 --> 0:16:25.360 in town, it's competitive. So you would come to me, 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:28.240 you'd come to aeg, you would come to any promoter, 0:16:28.680 --> 0:16:30.680 and you would try to incentivize them and say, listen, 0:16:30.760 --> 0:16:33.520 if you could bring ten shows a year, we'll pay 0:16:33.520 --> 0:16:36.120 you five dollars a ticket. If you could bring twenty 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:38.840 shows and thirty shows. So they're going to try to 0:16:38.880 --> 0:16:43.160 provide an incentive or rebate to bring scale and more 0:16:43.200 --> 0:16:47.760 shows to their venue if you can as an added incentive. 0:16:48.720 --> 0:16:53.480 Okay, So let's just use the concert example. Ticket Master 0:16:54.520 --> 0:16:58.120 revenue stream other than the percentage other than a couple 0:16:58.160 --> 0:17:01.600 of dollars on the then you feed, are there any 0:17:01.640 --> 0:17:04.399 other income streams for ticket Master? 0:17:06.240 --> 0:17:11.199 No, that's the complete business model is a percentage of 0:17:11.200 --> 0:17:11.639 the fees. 0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:15.480 Okay, needless to say what you have saying, these are 0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:17.320 costs that are going to be built in. The costs 0:17:17.359 --> 0:17:22.000 are never going to go away. Just for some people, understand, 0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:25.200 even though you and we have discussed this, the position 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:30.240 of ticket Master Live Nation is you're all for an 0:17:30.320 --> 0:17:31.440 all in ticket price. 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:34.800 Yeah, I would say that if you were a you know, 0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:37.360 whether you're a small club owner or a Live Nation 0:17:37.560 --> 0:17:39.800 you have a venue or these arenas that are spending 0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:44.679 a billion dollars on their venues. The reality is the 0:17:44.800 --> 0:17:47.000 artist has done a great job over the last ten 0:17:47.080 --> 0:17:49.639 years or taking more of the door as you know, 0:17:50.440 --> 0:17:53.240 so there's not any dollars left on the gross ticket. 0:17:53.359 --> 0:17:57.160 The ticket goes to the artist. So as that kind 0:17:57.160 --> 0:18:00.879 of has expanded. In order to pay for the venue, 0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:03.120 to pay for the staff, to pay for your costs, 0:18:03.760 --> 0:18:07.560 the service fees have become the revenue line. But you're right, 0:18:07.640 --> 0:18:10.840 if you you couldn't take the service fee away and 0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:12.960 then stay to the venue. Let's put the show on 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:15.159 the venue would say, well, who's paying all the costs? 0:18:15.400 --> 0:18:18.480 I got to get paid, so they could crank up 0:18:18.520 --> 0:18:20.600 the rent and stay to the artist. Hey, now the 0:18:20.640 --> 0:18:23.119 rent's going to be a lot more money. And then 0:18:22.960 --> 0:18:24.639 then the artist is going to say, okay, they're not 0:18:24.680 --> 0:18:26.639 to charge higher ticket prices, so you wouldn't net it. 0:18:26.720 --> 0:18:29.640 The same result is there is I think I think 0:18:29.680 --> 0:18:32.960 Garstad at best on stage, there's one pizza to get 0:18:32.960 --> 0:18:36.119 the show done. It isn't forty eight dollars, it's seventy six. 0:18:37.000 --> 0:18:39.120 So the quicker we decide that it's a seventy six 0:18:39.160 --> 0:18:43.640 dollars experience, the better will be as an industry than 0:18:43.680 --> 0:18:45.879 what we're doing today. And you know, I use example 0:18:45.880 --> 0:18:48.840 of Amazon. When I buy that hammer at Amazon, I 0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:52.119 think it's a great deal. Now if I if they 0:18:52.119 --> 0:18:55.200 said to me the hammer's five dollars, but the Amazon 0:18:55.280 --> 0:18:58.919 service fee is four, I would think that's horrible. But 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:03.320 you know Amazon, Apple charge thirty to fifty percent distribution fees, 0:19:03.880 --> 0:19:07.560 So call this fees the distribution fee the margin. The 0:19:07.960 --> 0:19:11.560 challenge in our industry is we have we have kept 0:19:11.640 --> 0:19:14.440 the margin the distribution cost, if you want to call it, 0:19:14.640 --> 0:19:18.480 outside of the price generally in industries, when you buy 0:19:18.520 --> 0:19:22.800 something at Walmart or Target, it's all built in the north. 0:19:22.840 --> 0:19:26.480 Stroms gets paid that the Calvin client gets paid, the 0:19:26.520 --> 0:19:29.359 distribution costs are paid, and it's ninety nine dollars to 0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:33.240 buy the jenes our business for many reasons, it's stayed outside. So, yes, 0:19:33.280 --> 0:19:35.800 we are, we as an industry think the We don't 0:19:35.840 --> 0:19:38.240 think they're junk fees. We don't think there's service fees 0:19:38.280 --> 0:19:41.000 that are just beautiful add ons to make a ton 0:19:41.040 --> 0:19:44.359 of money. We're a very low margin company, so we 0:19:44.600 --> 0:19:47.520 we we certainly are. Our numbers are public and financial 0:19:47.640 --> 0:19:50.240 show you that we're not. We're not making a ton 0:19:50.240 --> 0:19:53.600 of money on service fees other than the what you 0:19:53.640 --> 0:19:56.959 need to pay for staff costs, structure and then have 0:19:57.000 --> 0:19:58.120 a return on your capital. 0:19:58.880 --> 0:20:02.479 Okay, just to get this nailed down, your position is 0:20:02.600 --> 0:20:06.600 you would go to an all in ticket price. You're 0:20:06.760 --> 0:20:07.840 pro that position. 0:20:08.359 --> 0:20:11.720 Yes, we're we're happy pro Jam announced it today on 0:20:11.760 --> 0:20:15.800 their tour. We're we're talking to others. We would we 0:20:15.840 --> 0:20:20.800 would tomorrow go all in pricing. We need we would 0:20:20.840 --> 0:20:23.320 love the industry to do it. I mean New York 0:20:23.480 --> 0:20:27.120 went to all in pricing. We're the only person doing 0:20:27.160 --> 0:20:30.240 all in pricing right now, no one's monitoring it. You 0:20:30.320 --> 0:20:31.680 go go to New York right now and try to 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:34.360 buy a ticket at subhub or seek geek, No one's 0:20:34.600 --> 0:20:37.880 No one's following the all in pricing mandate law that's 0:20:37.880 --> 0:20:41.280 been put in place there. Because we know, if you 0:20:41.800 --> 0:20:44.280 one guy says it's seventy six dollars and one person 0:20:44.359 --> 0:20:46.920 said it's forty two, but really seventy six, check out, 0:20:47.240 --> 0:20:48.879 you're going to win on Google every day of the 0:20:48.880 --> 0:20:51.879 week on the forty two dollars ticket. So to be 0:20:52.119 --> 0:20:55.520 to be a level playing field for everybody, you would 0:20:55.560 --> 0:20:58.359 want everyone to have to show the right price upfront. 0:20:58.960 --> 0:21:01.359 So yes, we think that. We think showing the fan 0:21:01.440 --> 0:21:03.520 the real price to go to the show upfront is 0:21:03.560 --> 0:21:04.679 better for everybody. 0:21:05.520 --> 0:21:12.159 Okay, what is impeding this process? Why can't it happen? 0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:17.240 Well, I think, you know, I think his StubHub tried 0:21:17.240 --> 0:21:19.960 it a few years ago, five years ago, six years ago, 0:21:21.200 --> 0:21:23.600 you know, and they ended up pulling out of it 0:21:23.960 --> 0:21:27.000 and inciting that their business went down fifteen to twenty percent. 0:21:27.720 --> 0:21:29.760 I think that's scared most people. You looked at that 0:21:29.840 --> 0:21:32.600 and went, geez, if I'm going to be the only 0:21:32.760 --> 0:21:38.560 solo player moving. That's a big hit. So I think 0:21:38.600 --> 0:21:41.639 the date we all have probably been scared of. Do 0:21:41.720 --> 0:21:46.040 I want to absorb any of the leakage in that 0:21:46.160 --> 0:21:47.960 mission because you're going to do it on your own. 0:21:48.000 --> 0:21:49.680 The artists aren't going to give you a break. Then 0:21:49.680 --> 0:21:51.199 no one's going to give you a break that the 0:21:51.280 --> 0:21:53.360 venue's not going to say that's too bad. Will help 0:21:53.400 --> 0:21:55.320 you out here? If you're going to go, you're going 0:21:55.359 --> 0:21:58.040 to go. I think we've been scared to date, and 0:21:58.080 --> 0:22:00.280 then obviously COVID came. We all just had to get 0:22:00.280 --> 0:22:04.600 ourselves back together and back on the horse. So I 0:22:04.600 --> 0:22:06.960 think to date it's been the fear of the unknown. 0:22:07.200 --> 0:22:10.160 Will it hurt your sales? Will the agent artists ask 0:22:10.240 --> 0:22:12.520 for more money because they now say it's all one? 0:22:13.200 --> 0:22:15.359 Is it better to keep it separate? I think the 0:22:15.400 --> 0:22:18.280 sports teams have always done it separate for different reasons too, 0:22:19.440 --> 0:22:23.479 So I think to date there's been a fear of 0:22:23.520 --> 0:22:27.239 the unknown if you went all in. I think at 0:22:27.240 --> 0:22:29.919 this point though, we have to start acting more like 0:22:29.920 --> 0:22:33.560 the leader and standing stronger and taking some of the 0:22:33.600 --> 0:22:35.600 short term pain for the longer term win. 0:22:36.119 --> 0:22:39.119 Well forgetting the resale market, which is where stub Hubbs 0:22:39.280 --> 0:22:43.600 experience was and still is. You have all these acts 0:22:43.720 --> 0:22:47.840 using round numbers, once again saying I said the price 0:22:47.960 --> 0:22:52.080 was fifty dollars, but the checkout price was eighty dollars, 0:22:52.520 --> 0:22:58.280 and that's terrible. So to what degree do the artists 0:22:58.520 --> 0:23:00.720 not want all inke at pricing. 0:23:01.680 --> 0:23:04.240 I think it's I think it's split. I mean, as 0:23:04.240 --> 0:23:08.640 you know, there's no one artist. There's you know, some 0:23:08.720 --> 0:23:12.400 want the money and and some want twenty dollars tickets. 0:23:12.400 --> 0:23:14.920 And there's a spectrum, right, there's no there's no I 0:23:14.960 --> 0:23:17.600 wish I always joke I wish I saw Adam Silver yesterday. 0:23:17.640 --> 0:23:19.199 I wish I had a I wish I was a 0:23:19.200 --> 0:23:22.320 commissioner and can mandate a few a few few things 0:23:22.320 --> 0:23:24.960 here and there. But we're dealing with fifteen hundred different 0:23:25.000 --> 0:23:28.439 managers and artists a year, and they all have different 0:23:28.440 --> 0:23:31.720 agendas and different parts of their life cycle. And and 0:23:32.680 --> 0:23:34.280 so you're right, there are going to be some artists 0:23:34.320 --> 0:23:36.920 that say, no, screw you. I'm not going to say 0:23:36.920 --> 0:23:40.520 it's an eighty dollars ticket, it's fifty. Some artists like 0:23:40.520 --> 0:23:42.480 Pear Jam, we're gonna say, I get it, let's let's 0:23:42.560 --> 0:23:46.359 let's make it fair and do what's right. So you're right, 0:23:46.400 --> 0:23:48.960 it hasn't been something to date. You know, this is 0:23:49.000 --> 0:23:53.320 an industry we talk about is Live. It's very very unorganized. 0:23:53.359 --> 0:23:56.520 As you know. The recording side is a bit more organized. 0:23:56.560 --> 0:23:59.320 They've got you know, they got lobbyists, they've got kind 0:23:59.320 --> 0:24:03.560 of organized, the Grammy's, the Riria. There's really no there's 0:24:03.560 --> 0:24:06.639 no organization and Live we always joke the only actual 0:24:06.720 --> 0:24:10.639 organization is the Ticket Broker Association. We're a really good lobbyists, 0:24:10.640 --> 0:24:12.680 but there is not even a lobbyist group for us 0:24:12.760 --> 0:24:15.479 as an industry, so we don't do well as an 0:24:15.520 --> 0:24:21.400 industry making smart moves holistically. You're right. So I think 0:24:21.440 --> 0:24:24.159 we're going to have to just move forward Live with 0:24:24.240 --> 0:24:27.679 some short term pain of some artists or others, but 0:24:27.720 --> 0:24:31.200 I think it's right for the fan and the experience overall. Now, Bob, 0:24:31.320 --> 0:24:33.600 I would say, I don't want to you know, let's 0:24:33.640 --> 0:24:35.160 go to the second part. I don't want to say 0:24:35.200 --> 0:24:37.560 that there aren't times when the service fee is too 0:24:37.640 --> 0:24:40.080 high and that doesn't have to be addressed too. This 0:24:40.119 --> 0:24:43.000 isn't just jam all the service fees in. Put it 0:24:43.000 --> 0:24:44.760 in one price so we can hide it there are 0:24:45.280 --> 0:24:47.439 as you saw with the Cure. I think we do 0:24:47.560 --> 0:24:49.760 have to look at some of our businesses on the 0:24:49.800 --> 0:24:53.480 lower end ticket prices, the clubs, theater. I do think 0:24:53.480 --> 0:24:55.919 as an industry we probably do have to absorb a 0:24:55.920 --> 0:24:58.639 bit better and think a little smarter at what is 0:24:58.680 --> 0:25:02.160 the add on fee because I think I think although 0:25:02.200 --> 0:25:04.840 it's justified, I don't think it's justified probably at every 0:25:04.840 --> 0:25:07.479 ticket price point. So we probably as an industry need 0:25:07.520 --> 0:25:08.359 to be smarter there. 0:25:15.400 --> 0:25:17.679 Okay, let's be very specific since you brought it up, 0:25:18.480 --> 0:25:22.240 what exactly happened with the cure because ten dollars were 0:25:22.280 --> 0:25:26.040 given back, which is a first, right, you. 0:25:26.000 --> 0:25:28.560 Know, it was again when you you know, the system 0:25:28.760 --> 0:25:31.919 isn't really built for artists like Robert the cure, right, 0:25:31.960 --> 0:25:35.520 We're usually do a running fast put the ticket on sale, 0:25:36.560 --> 0:25:40.240 and we kind of are proud of the ticketmaster's side. 0:25:40.280 --> 0:25:42.560 We did a ton of work with Robert making sure 0:25:43.280 --> 0:25:46.280 it was a non transferable, that it would be then 0:25:46.359 --> 0:25:50.679 face valued exchange, and we kind of got verified and 0:25:50.680 --> 0:25:52.840 doing all we could to put all the roadblocks to 0:25:52.880 --> 0:25:58.040 help him deliver his ticket price to the fan. But 0:25:58.119 --> 0:26:00.240 he's so active on Twitter, as you know, there was 0:26:00.280 --> 0:26:02.840 a screenshot of a venue which wasn't even a Live 0:26:02.920 --> 0:26:05.640 Nation venue. It was an amphitheater that we don't own 0:26:06.640 --> 0:26:09.719 that showed a the ticket service fee of the twenty 0:26:09.760 --> 0:26:13.639 on the twenty. Which it doesn't matter whether we justify 0:26:13.760 --> 0:26:15.800 that the service fee is a good idea or not. 0:26:16.480 --> 0:26:18.399 We have an industry where we got to build some 0:26:18.400 --> 0:26:22.720 credibility back. So Robert reached out to me. We talked 0:26:22.720 --> 0:26:27.120 about it. I couldn't defend that in any version of life, 0:26:27.200 --> 0:26:28.800 we were going to add a twenty dollars service fee 0:26:28.840 --> 0:26:32.240 to a twenty dollars ticket. So I made the decision 0:26:32.240 --> 0:26:34.359 that we would go in, spend some money and help 0:26:35.080 --> 0:26:38.040 on this case, give back the ten dollars, and get 0:26:38.040 --> 0:26:41.440 it to a reasonable place for those fans. 0:26:42.760 --> 0:26:46.440 Okay, let's be very specific where did the ten dollars 0:26:46.480 --> 0:26:51.200 come from? Because using the earlier paradigm on the fees, 0:26:51.920 --> 0:26:53.840 the venue takes most of the money. 0:26:54.040 --> 0:26:57.080 Right, we went to the venues and said we're going 0:26:57.119 --> 0:26:59.760 to reduce it by ten and we will eat the 0:26:59.840 --> 0:27:02.360 car if you don't want to join us well as 0:27:02.359 --> 0:27:06.440 a one time hit, we'll take the cost to make 0:27:06.480 --> 0:27:10.160 this right. And I'd say half the venue said listen, 0:27:10.200 --> 0:27:13.520 will help you out. The other other half said good luck, 0:27:13.600 --> 0:27:17.920 eat it. So it was a fast, moved, fast decision, 0:27:18.520 --> 0:27:21.560 and we thought it was worth the million dollars or 0:27:21.600 --> 0:27:24.280 so to say, let's let's let's make the right message 0:27:24.400 --> 0:27:26.600 with an artist that does care to this level. 0:27:28.440 --> 0:27:33.680 But if you leave all emotions out, is it reasonable 0:27:33.760 --> 0:27:37.240 to expect to see the Cure for twenty dollars in 0:27:37.280 --> 0:27:40.679 an arena which only holds fifteen to twenty thousand people. 0:27:42.480 --> 0:27:46.840 No, I think you're I think the you know, I 0:27:46.880 --> 0:27:51.160 think the pricing of concerts in general, I don't think 0:27:51.160 --> 0:27:53.240 we should. I think there's this fine line between yes, 0:27:53.280 --> 0:27:55.520 we want it accessible, but I think it's a great 0:27:55.680 --> 0:27:58.480 art and I think there's a price to it, and 0:27:58.760 --> 0:28:00.880 I don't think we should fool ourselves. The fans will 0:28:00.920 --> 0:28:03.760 not pay, especially the cure age fans that will not 0:28:03.880 --> 0:28:07.639 pay for the great show. But as I said, my 0:28:07.760 --> 0:28:10.240 job isn't a debate whether the artist wants to take 0:28:10.240 --> 0:28:12.840 all the money or give or or or or or 0:28:12.960 --> 0:28:16.359 Zach or Cure want to charge too little. I'm just trying. 0:28:16.400 --> 0:28:19.280 My job is just deliver that platform for them. In 0:28:19.320 --> 0:28:23.600 this case, I think I think we were we thought 0:28:23.600 --> 0:28:26.479 we'd be better off to respond and address it than 0:28:26.600 --> 0:28:27.800 leave it. Leave it as is. 0:28:28.640 --> 0:28:36.359 Okay, now Live Nation owns, clubs and smaller venues. Based 0:28:36.400 --> 0:28:40.560 on what you just said, you believe in your owned 0:28:40.720 --> 0:28:45.880 venues that you should address the fees because in some 0:28:46.040 --> 0:28:50.520 cases you think they're inappropriate and too high. 0:28:50.680 --> 0:28:52.920 Yeah, listen, I think as a I think we are. 0:28:52.920 --> 0:28:55.840 If you look at our fee structure, we're no different 0:28:55.880 --> 0:29:00.880 than AG or Independence anywhere else. Sports concerts, nine to thirty, 0:29:00.960 --> 0:29:04.360 club AG, We're all in the same ballparks. We're all 0:29:04.440 --> 0:29:07.720 charging facility fee, service fees. We all have the same 0:29:07.840 --> 0:29:12.560 economic challenge of running a venue, paying staff and as 0:29:12.600 --> 0:29:15.760 you read about inflation, staff costs up, insurance costs, So 0:29:15.760 --> 0:29:19.080 we're all in the same predicament. But I do think 0:29:19.560 --> 0:29:22.360 as the leader, we probably have to make we have 0:29:22.440 --> 0:29:25.920 to start acting and moving a little bit more on 0:29:26.000 --> 0:29:31.840 the younger developing artists club and low ticket price. So yes, 0:29:31.920 --> 0:29:35.120 I do look at my twenty dollars amphitheater tickets or 0:29:35.160 --> 0:29:39.040 a twenty dollars ticket in general, and I don't care 0:29:39.080 --> 0:29:42.600 if it's rational right now that we got to pay 0:29:42.640 --> 0:29:45.440 staff and we have costs and the service fees should 0:29:45.440 --> 0:29:47.680 be what it should be to a fan right now, 0:29:47.680 --> 0:29:50.360 We've got to build some trust back, So I think 0:29:50.360 --> 0:29:52.200 we got to go all in pricing. But I do 0:29:52.240 --> 0:29:54.560 think at Live Nation we'll look at the lower end 0:29:54.560 --> 0:29:57.880 ticket prices in the theater and clubs and say, can 0:29:57.920 --> 0:30:00.360 we also scale them back and make sure or we're 0:30:01.560 --> 0:30:07.160 a defendable fee on a service on a ticket price. Okay, well, 0:30:07.200 --> 0:30:09.000 now we might have allay other ways Bob to get 0:30:09.040 --> 0:30:11.880 revenue to pubblement that. But I think it's been too 0:30:11.920 --> 0:30:14.360 easy to add a dollar to the service fee. And 0:30:14.480 --> 0:30:16.160 I think I think at a certain point of fans 0:30:16.160 --> 0:30:18.760 says listen, I get it. I even get a twenty percent. 0:30:18.760 --> 0:30:21.480 We've done the research. I understand the service fee paid staff, 0:30:21.520 --> 0:30:24.200 and I understand it. One, don't surprise me at the end. 0:30:24.280 --> 0:30:28.320 Please tell me upfront. Two if it's more than twenty percent, 0:30:28.520 --> 0:30:32.120 I don't understand it. Where's it going doesn't seem fair. 0:30:32.640 --> 0:30:35.400 So I think we are looking at we got to 0:30:35.400 --> 0:30:38.040 do a better job of saying where it's going and 0:30:38.080 --> 0:30:40.800 how it's broken out. That would be a start. But 0:30:40.920 --> 0:30:42.680 if we go all in pricing, I do think we 0:30:42.720 --> 0:30:44.760 still also have to look at the bottom end of 0:30:44.800 --> 0:30:46.360 the lower end and make it more accessible. 0:30:47.200 --> 0:30:49.880 Okay, as I say, a lot of people listening to 0:30:49.960 --> 0:30:54.360 this are emotionally invested but don't know all of the process. 0:30:55.120 --> 0:30:59.720 So let's start with the process of how Live Nation 0:31:00.120 --> 0:31:04.400 gets a date or a tour and how the money 0:31:04.760 --> 0:31:08.040 is established, both the paybact and what the ticket prices 0:31:08.080 --> 0:31:08.400 will be. 0:31:11.440 --> 0:31:16.760 So an artist has an agent, and whether they are 0:31:17.880 --> 0:31:21.080 selling a local date to an arena or a club 0:31:21.120 --> 0:31:24.240 show in Philadelphia, or maybe the agent is trying to 0:31:24.280 --> 0:31:27.280 sell twenty or thirty dates together as a tour. That 0:31:27.360 --> 0:31:31.200 agent's going to call the promoters. Whether it's Live Nation, 0:31:31.440 --> 0:31:33.280 it's going to be aeg, it's going to be the 0:31:33.320 --> 0:31:39.479 local promoter, seth another planet. There's always a local promoter. 0:31:40.000 --> 0:31:42.960 So the agent's going to call three promoters and say, 0:31:44.000 --> 0:31:49.040 bandex wants to play October one in Chicago. Make us 0:31:49.080 --> 0:31:53.840 an offer, and they might you know, they might say 0:31:53.840 --> 0:31:57.000 here's the ticket price or not at the beginning, it'll 0:31:57.000 --> 0:32:00.600 depend on the artist. But we want to an arena 0:32:00.880 --> 0:32:04.880 or a theater on October one in San Francisco. Make 0:32:04.960 --> 0:32:08.280 us an offer. We'll come in, we'll come we'll run 0:32:08.320 --> 0:32:11.200 the math. Look at the arena. Thirteen thousand seats what 0:32:11.200 --> 0:32:14.360 did they do last time, sixty nine, thirty nine, one 0:32:14.440 --> 0:32:17.479 hundred and ten. Look at their scaling, they sold out, 0:32:17.560 --> 0:32:20.560 didn't sell out. Put that math together and say, you know, 0:32:20.600 --> 0:32:23.920 we think we think there's this business that is going 0:32:24.000 --> 0:32:25.880 to sell eighty percent of the tickets. We think it's 0:32:25.880 --> 0:32:29.600 a four hundred thousand dollars guarantee. And we'll send back 0:32:29.640 --> 0:32:33.040 that guarantee and say four hundred thousand dollars against a 0:32:33.200 --> 0:32:37.160 thirty fifty and one hundred and ten dollars scaling agent 0:32:37.200 --> 0:32:41.840 will take all three of those. Generally come back to 0:32:42.200 --> 0:32:46.240 all three of us and say we want four fifty. 0:32:46.440 --> 0:32:52.360 Highest bid is four fifty, And now the ticket prices 0:32:52.400 --> 0:32:55.280 gets rescaled based on the guarantee. So now your ticket 0:32:55.280 --> 0:32:57.240 price will go to one twenty and seventy nine and 0:32:57.280 --> 0:33:01.120 sixty nine. So you can look to scale and gross 0:33:01.600 --> 0:33:02.720 that number at the door. 0:33:03.520 --> 0:33:07.920 So in your original bit, your original offer, you do 0:33:08.000 --> 0:33:10.800 put in ticket price points. 0:33:10.840 --> 0:33:14.320 As I said, it's it's it's both ways. Sometimes the 0:33:14.400 --> 0:33:17.240 artist is clear on what. The agent will say, you know, 0:33:18.000 --> 0:33:20.480 here's what we here's the maximum he'll charge. Here's the 0:33:20.480 --> 0:33:23.120 ticket prices he'll charge it. Usually only the top end 0:33:23.120 --> 0:33:26.720 they worry about. So they'll probably say, listen, historically he's 0:33:26.720 --> 0:33:30.240 never gone above one twenty for a P one, so 0:33:30.360 --> 0:33:32.640 come back with the scaling. There's some version of a 0:33:33.200 --> 0:33:36.840 of a top end established by the artist, so we'll 0:33:36.880 --> 0:33:40.000 come back with that scaling in it. Typically that scaleing 0:33:40.040 --> 0:33:42.040 will spit out a number less than they want, and 0:33:42.080 --> 0:33:44.760 we'll all probably sharpen our pencils, the eight promoters and 0:33:44.800 --> 0:33:47.600 come back and say, listen, if you go to one forty, 0:33:47.960 --> 0:33:49.480 we can pay you a four to fifty a night. 0:33:50.240 --> 0:33:52.640 And that tends to be how it gets defined. So 0:33:53.280 --> 0:33:57.520 the guarantee drives the ticket scaling. It's just math. Just back, 0:33:57.560 --> 0:34:00.120 you're just dividing thirteen thousand seats by the guarantee and 0:34:00.160 --> 0:34:02.840 then debating how many are each in each level. 0:34:03.320 --> 0:34:06.680 Well, let's be very clear, at the end of the day, 0:34:08.800 --> 0:34:14.880 the act, through his agent, establishes the price of the ticket. 0:34:16.160 --> 0:34:20.799 Yes, why the cure decided he would have a low price, right, 0:34:20.800 --> 0:34:22.839 he would have. We wouldn't have we wouldn't have put 0:34:22.880 --> 0:34:25.040 an offer in those low prices. That wouldn't have been 0:34:25.120 --> 0:34:27.480 historically what you do that would have came back and said, 0:34:27.520 --> 0:34:30.200 I want to charge twenty dollars and I'll live with 0:34:30.239 --> 0:34:32.759 a lower gross and a lower walk out, or other 0:34:32.880 --> 0:34:35.879 artists will say, agents will say I want I want 0:34:35.880 --> 0:34:38.799 a million dollar guarantee. Come back with the math. 0:34:39.920 --> 0:34:43.719 Okay, so let's just assume, based on your example, you're 0:34:43.760 --> 0:34:48.720 paying the act four hundred thousand dollars. Now, just for 0:34:49.080 --> 0:34:53.720 the newbies, there is a potential back end, an additional payment. 0:34:54.160 --> 0:34:55.279 Explain that. 0:34:56.640 --> 0:34:59.200 Again. I'm going to use generalities, but typically you're going 0:34:59.239 --> 0:35:02.560 to pay an artist a guarantee versus a ninety ten. 0:35:03.200 --> 0:35:06.000 Maybe it's a ninety five to five. So if you 0:35:07.160 --> 0:35:10.359 sell out whatever tickets you sell that night, you're going 0:35:10.400 --> 0:35:14.439 to get your total gross. And if you grossed five 0:35:14.560 --> 0:35:18.399 hundred and ten thousand dollars after at the top end, 0:35:18.719 --> 0:35:23.480 you're going to take expenses out rent local, local ushers, 0:35:23.560 --> 0:35:27.520 local security, local venue costs, and then you might end 0:35:27.600 --> 0:35:32.400 up at four hundred thousand dollars net after venue costs. 0:35:32.800 --> 0:35:35.080 If you guarantee them four fifty, you write to check 0:35:35.120 --> 0:35:40.080 for four fifty, regardless if after costs it's five hundred, 0:35:40.719 --> 0:35:43.120 they're going to get ninety percent of that five hundred 0:35:43.200 --> 0:35:45.480 versus their guarantee of four fifty, So they're going to 0:35:45.480 --> 0:35:48.640 get four seventy five and you'll make your your ten percent. 0:35:49.360 --> 0:35:52.520 So at minimum they got a floor. Their job is 0:35:52.560 --> 0:35:57.920 then to push us to keep expenses down, sell as 0:35:57.960 --> 0:35:59.600 many tickets as we can, and try to get that 0:35:59.680 --> 0:36:01.359 artist to what they call percentages. 0:36:02.719 --> 0:36:10.000 Okay, overall, what is Live Nations profit percentage? And where 0:36:10.080 --> 0:36:12.959 do you actually make the money since the acts get 0:36:13.040 --> 0:36:15.080 most of the ticket revenue. 0:36:17.120 --> 0:36:20.000 Well, listen at the core. This is a scale business, right, 0:36:20.160 --> 0:36:21.960 you know, I had to build this over the last 0:36:22.000 --> 0:36:25.360 fifteen years because you don't get rich on any one show. 0:36:25.880 --> 0:36:28.240 It's the service global business. We're going to do forty 0:36:28.320 --> 0:36:33.920 thousand shows in one hundred cities and forty countries. So 0:36:34.280 --> 0:36:37.680 I remember an analyst wayback said it's the river and nickels, right, 0:36:37.719 --> 0:36:39.360 So you have to build a business that has a 0:36:39.400 --> 0:36:44.160 lot of ongoing nickels of revenue streams around that flywheel 0:36:44.200 --> 0:36:46.759 called the show. So you know, if you kind of 0:36:46.760 --> 0:36:49.400 look at our model, we're going to do forty thousand shows, 0:36:49.400 --> 0:36:52.399 We'll spend about ten billion dollars on guarantees or those 0:36:52.520 --> 0:36:56.400 walkouts at midnight. We'll make a bit. We'll make a 0:36:56.600 --> 0:37:01.920 small percentage on that so called door where we're going 0:37:01.960 --> 0:37:04.080 to make our money now is okay, we have one 0:37:04.160 --> 0:37:07.160 hundred million people walked into the door, so we're going 0:37:07.200 --> 0:37:09.640 to one We have one hundred and thirty one hundred 0:37:09.640 --> 0:37:14.000 and fifty of our own venues, amphitheaters, clubs, theaters, three 0:37:14.080 --> 0:37:17.640 hundred festivals, so in those places will be the venue 0:37:17.640 --> 0:37:20.840 we're going to make the food and beverage, the parking, 0:37:21.000 --> 0:37:26.320 the service fees, and the sponsorship. So you're kind of 0:37:26.400 --> 0:37:30.000 vertical on the non live nation shows. We're going to 0:37:30.040 --> 0:37:34.200 make money on those rebates as we talk about bring 0:37:34.200 --> 0:37:37.240 our content to the arena, bring them forty to fifty 0:37:37.239 --> 0:37:42.600 shows and get paid a rebate. And then third is 0:37:42.640 --> 0:37:45.839 we're going to spoil our global sponsorship business just in 0:37:45.920 --> 0:37:51.400 general delivering global sponsorships to our shows, our festivals, our venues, 0:37:51.440 --> 0:37:57.759 our access, image programs, pre sale programs, all of those 0:37:57.800 --> 0:38:03.319 ways that we can deliver sponsorships to big brands. And 0:38:03.360 --> 0:38:08.200 then Ticketmaster service fees those twenty percent that they're going 0:38:08.239 --> 0:38:10.520 to make on that side. So those are the main 0:38:10.680 --> 0:38:14.520 buckets that you're going to put together that deliver your 0:38:14.560 --> 0:38:18.560 profitability above your on your forty thousand shows. 0:38:19.080 --> 0:38:21.360 And at the end of the day, what's the margin 0:38:23.960 --> 0:38:24.319 we're at. 0:38:25.040 --> 0:38:28.320 You know, we're a combined basis. We're a ten eleven 0:38:28.360 --> 0:38:32.919 percent margin business. Concert business is a low margin two 0:38:33.360 --> 0:38:37.960 two percent margin, could be four. Sponsorship is a high 0:38:38.000 --> 0:38:42.520 margin business. And ticketings it's thirty five percent business. But 0:38:42.600 --> 0:38:48.040 you're netting out to a ten eleven percent margin business overall. 0:38:46.520 --> 0:38:53.000 And compared to other companies. Apple strives for thirty percent margin. 0:38:54.880 --> 0:38:56.480 Yeah, if you're a tech company, you're going to be 0:38:56.480 --> 0:39:00.120 in your thirty forty plus percent margins. You would You 0:39:00.120 --> 0:39:02.279 wouldn't find a monopoly in history that had a ten 0:39:02.320 --> 0:39:04.759 eleven percent margin, if you want to kind of use 0:39:04.800 --> 0:39:10.279 that analogy. Typically, monopoly means you've exerted, you have enough 0:39:10.320 --> 0:39:12.880 power and pricing power, et cetera. You probably have a 0:39:12.960 --> 0:39:15.920 very high margin return. So you're right, it is a 0:39:17.520 --> 0:39:20.799 low margin business. At the core. You have to have 0:39:20.880 --> 0:39:24.880 global scale like we built ultimately deliver a consistent, global 0:39:25.080 --> 0:39:28.280 good business. But it's a it's a hand to hand combat. 0:39:29.000 --> 0:39:32.240 How much of the income is from sponsorship. 0:39:34.520 --> 0:39:39.799 You know what is ballpark? Were about forty percent sponsorship. 0:39:40.120 --> 0:39:45.080 It's a big business for us in our festivals. 0:39:45.680 --> 0:39:50.360 Okay, let's talk superstar acts and I'm gonna speak English. 0:39:50.440 --> 0:39:54.120 Here there are a number of superstar acts, some of 0:39:54.160 --> 0:39:58.040 them who used to be with AEG eight. But Live 0:39:58.200 --> 0:40:02.160 Nation pays more, and sometimes the act goes with Live 0:40:02.280 --> 0:40:03.960 Most of the time the act goes with Live Nation. 0:40:04.520 --> 0:40:06.959 How can Live Nation pay more? 0:40:09.800 --> 0:40:13.040 Yeah, I don't. I don't go the pay more route. 0:40:13.160 --> 0:40:17.200 I wouldn't say that's fair fair all the time as 0:40:17.239 --> 0:40:21.000 I went to that earlier bidding process. When there's a 0:40:21.040 --> 0:40:24.120 big global tour that AG and Live Nation are bidding on, 0:40:26.600 --> 0:40:30.600 I can't remember the last latest one. We're both we're 0:40:30.600 --> 0:40:32.920 both neck to neck. I mean, there's never a version 0:40:32.920 --> 0:40:36.160 that a G they're calling me saying, oh god, you 0:40:36.640 --> 0:40:39.600 so overpaid. It's yours. I mean, god, we're just we're 0:40:39.640 --> 0:40:41.520 just too good as a company as is a G. 0:40:42.000 --> 0:40:44.600 Nor are they overpaid. I mean, you're literally going to 0:40:44.640 --> 0:40:47.640 win by a dollar either way. You're you you at 0:40:47.640 --> 0:40:50.719 that point though, you're you're selling your global business, you're 0:40:50.719 --> 0:40:54.279 selling your relationships, you're selling your marketing, you're you know, 0:40:54.320 --> 0:40:57.080 so you're you're you're selling a bundle. But I wouldn't 0:40:57.080 --> 0:40:59.840 tell you that we There would be no version that 0:40:59.840 --> 0:41:02.640 we are waking up and stealing a tour from them 0:41:02.760 --> 0:41:05.719 or winning a tour from them because we dramatically overpaid. 0:41:06.000 --> 0:41:07.719 It's an inside baseball negotiating. 0:41:07.840 --> 0:41:10.800 Wait wait, wait, wait, there's a lot of dollars involved here, 0:41:11.520 --> 0:41:15.600 and I certainly know specific cases. At the end of 0:41:15.719 --> 0:41:21.120 the day, Live Nation paid more than AG was willing 0:41:21.280 --> 0:41:26.279 to pay, and the act went with Live Nation, let 0:41:26.280 --> 0:41:29.840 me let me, let let me go to a different spot. 0:41:29.920 --> 0:41:33.040 And while addressed, well, just I joke with my team, 0:41:33.120 --> 0:41:37.040 right when we lose a tour, Age overpaid when we 0:41:37.080 --> 0:41:40.200 went a tour for geniuses, right, So I deal with 0:41:40.239 --> 0:41:43.080 this every day when when when we losed AG, my 0:41:43.160 --> 0:41:44.799 promoter will come to me go, oh my god, they 0:41:44.880 --> 0:41:49.319 so overpaid. They didn't you know. That's that's that's what 0:41:49.960 --> 0:41:53.439 competitively wise, that's typically what you do is the only 0:41:53.480 --> 0:41:55.359 way you must have lost is the other guy must 0:41:55.400 --> 0:42:00.279 have dramatically overpaid. Most of us are every negotiation with 0:42:00.320 --> 0:42:04.000 that agent, it's inside baseball. That agent is calling you 0:42:04.120 --> 0:42:08.200 saying Age's at forty one million and you're at thirty 0:42:08.280 --> 0:42:11.839 nine eight These calling Age saying they're at thirty nine Like, 0:42:12.120 --> 0:42:14.719 it's not like we're at fifty and they're at forty two. 0:42:14.920 --> 0:42:18.600 There's there's no version of that we're all it's none 0:42:18.600 --> 0:42:21.600 of us and Nora's age. When they beat me, it's 0:42:21.640 --> 0:42:25.600 not because they dramatically overpaid. You know, they won the 0:42:25.719 --> 0:42:29.920 Luke Combs tour. They's got a good relationship with Capian 0:42:30.200 --> 0:42:33.680 won that in the US, and and and and and 0:42:33.800 --> 0:42:36.280 you know, there's kind of a combination of relationship meets 0:42:36.680 --> 0:42:40.640 money meets you know, their package. But so I just 0:42:40.680 --> 0:42:43.399 say that because I definitely don't believe that when we 0:42:43.440 --> 0:42:46.239 win it's because we overpaid. We typically win because we 0:42:46.320 --> 0:42:50.480 have a global business different than theirs. We have been 0:42:50.520 --> 0:42:55.160 able to generally make artists more money overall, which really 0:42:55.160 --> 0:42:57.000 matters not what you pay them. What the artist cares 0:42:57.000 --> 0:43:01.040 about is what's the walkout in the end. And we 0:43:01.040 --> 0:43:04.719 were the author of platinum and Dynamic Pricing and and 0:43:05.280 --> 0:43:07.799 and VIP. So I do believe we've been able to 0:43:08.080 --> 0:43:11.040 help deliver for the artists, but wouldn't say we overpay 0:43:11.520 --> 0:43:17.200 to win. I think we both win on price, but 0:43:17.200 --> 0:43:18.799 but there's always a package around it. 0:43:19.640 --> 0:43:25.880 Okay, let's talk specifically about Ticketmaster. Ticket Master is also 0:43:26.000 --> 0:43:31.520 a secondary platform, okay, meaning the ticket's already been sold, 0:43:31.680 --> 0:43:36.400 it can be resold on ticket Master. Let's start first, 0:43:38.160 --> 0:43:42.680 the fact that the ticket cannot be resold at less 0:43:43.120 --> 0:43:47.040 than in the original price. Is that a Ticketmaster policy 0:43:47.160 --> 0:43:49.160 or is that an act policy? 0:43:49.960 --> 0:43:58.320 That's Ticketmaster. So when I took over Ticketmaster, our biggest 0:43:58.400 --> 0:44:00.520 challenge of Ticketmaster and the reason it was to declining 0:44:00.760 --> 0:44:03.880 five years in a row, Well, stubbub was kicking its 0:44:03.920 --> 0:44:07.240 ass at ten o'clock. When you went to ticket Master 0:44:07.520 --> 0:44:10.279 to buy that Tour of the Day ten years ago, 0:44:10.840 --> 0:44:15.239 we said no tickets available, literally, and I followed it 0:44:15.280 --> 0:44:17.680 one day and for the next six months, like eighty 0:44:17.719 --> 0:44:21.319 six million people came to the page which we basically said, 0:44:21.320 --> 0:44:25.840 go to stubhubb. So our sports clients then also our team, 0:44:26.400 --> 0:44:31.839 team owners, NBA, NHL adopted exchanges and secondary fully at 0:44:31.840 --> 0:44:35.480 that point. So number one reality was we need to 0:44:35.520 --> 0:44:37.360 be able to say we need to open our platform 0:44:37.400 --> 0:44:41.560 and let secondary dots live. We can't keep telling customers 0:44:41.880 --> 0:44:45.279 we have no tickets at ten am. Well Secondary is 0:44:45.320 --> 0:44:47.040 alive and well down the street. 0:44:48.800 --> 0:44:49.680 But one of the. 0:44:49.640 --> 0:44:52.680 Realities was what were we going to do that we 0:44:52.719 --> 0:44:56.719 believe for the team and the artist would still be 0:44:56.880 --> 0:45:00.880 something that is right for their business. Things we don't 0:45:00.920 --> 0:45:04.240 do which hurt us overall market share is we don't 0:45:04.239 --> 0:45:09.680 do spec selling and we don't underprice face. That probably 0:45:09.719 --> 0:45:12.399 means at any given time we have fifty percent less 0:45:12.400 --> 0:45:15.719 inventory than sea geek and stub Hub because, as you see, 0:45:15.800 --> 0:45:18.239 a lot of this game that go on now is 0:45:18.320 --> 0:45:20.600 spec selling where they don't have the seats, they don't 0:45:20.600 --> 0:45:24.800 really have the ticket. They're masterful, they're very good marketers. 0:45:24.880 --> 0:45:27.520 They'll put three seats together at eight hundred dollars and 0:45:27.600 --> 0:45:29.920 two seats at two thousand, but they don't have any 0:45:30.000 --> 0:45:32.239 of those. But if you buy the eight hundred because 0:45:32.280 --> 0:45:34.719 it seems cheaper than the two, they'll email you and 0:45:34.719 --> 0:45:38.120 they'll find seats a row difference and you'll buy them. Anyways, 0:45:38.480 --> 0:45:41.520 So we don't do spec selling, and we decided that 0:45:41.560 --> 0:45:44.320 we would always say we don't ever think content should 0:45:44.320 --> 0:45:47.880 be underpriced from whatever the artist or team said it at. 0:45:48.000 --> 0:45:50.520 So that's been our philosophy and we've stayed true to 0:45:50.560 --> 0:45:51.440 that so far. 0:45:59.000 --> 0:46:03.000 Okay, what is the payment to ticket Master when a 0:46:03.080 --> 0:46:04.960 ticket is re sold on its platform. 0:46:06.320 --> 0:46:10.040 It's the same. So the secondary has to be approved 0:46:10.040 --> 0:46:14.240 by the venue because the venue, again when they select 0:46:14.280 --> 0:46:17.640 a ticketing company, they mandate what the secondary is or 0:46:17.719 --> 0:46:23.480 isn't so it's the same split basically the secondary. I 0:46:23.520 --> 0:46:26.640 can't turn on the secondary and that venue without the 0:46:26.760 --> 0:46:31.400 venue approving it. And the third thing that we do 0:46:31.640 --> 0:46:35.800 that scalpers I guess don't do is we get approval 0:46:35.840 --> 0:46:38.400 from the artist. So again, a lot of times if 0:46:38.400 --> 0:46:41.400 the artist says I don't want TM to turn on secondary, 0:46:41.400 --> 0:46:46.400 we don't, even though Seekeek and others will, well, you know, 0:46:46.480 --> 0:46:49.080 we'll fill up Taylor Swift for example, we didn't turn 0:46:49.120 --> 0:46:52.759 on DM plus and Seekeek and others made a fortune. 0:46:53.480 --> 0:46:55.840 But but the ultimate is the reality is the venue 0:46:56.040 --> 0:47:01.759 controls the ticket secondary and turning on and turning off 0:47:01.920 --> 0:47:02.640 for their teams. 0:47:03.560 --> 0:47:09.279 Uh So on a concert, if the on a secondary 0:47:10.040 --> 0:47:12.480 is the split similar to the. 0:47:12.320 --> 0:47:15.200 Primary, similar prime? Yeah, they're all the similar. 0:47:16.000 --> 0:47:20.800 And then to what degree does the fee change based 0:47:21.040 --> 0:47:22.680 on the price of the ticket? 0:47:25.320 --> 0:47:27.799 I would assume it has the same up scales up 0:47:27.800 --> 0:47:32.440 as the ticket goes up twenty, twenty five, thirty, whatever 0:47:32.440 --> 0:47:33.040 the actual. 0:47:32.840 --> 0:47:36.000 St Okay, So Nicholas to say, on the secondary, the 0:47:36.200 --> 0:47:39.600 venue is making the majority of the money's supposed a 0:47:39.600 --> 0:47:41.160 ticket master, but. 0:47:41.760 --> 0:47:44.080 Just the fees, not the yes, just for the unknown 0:47:44.120 --> 0:47:46.280 there for the people out there it's not. The face 0:47:46.360 --> 0:47:49.680 is the third party person making the real money. The 0:47:49.719 --> 0:47:52.320 fee is then just split between the venue and TM. 0:47:52.840 --> 0:47:58.520 Okay, there are many events the ticket master is the 0:47:58.560 --> 0:48:05.000 ticketing company, but Live Nation is not the promoter. Yes, correct, Yes, 0:48:05.719 --> 0:48:10.640 So if I am a promoter and Ticketmaster is the 0:48:10.680 --> 0:48:16.560 platform I'm using for the gig, I would say, hey, 0:48:17.360 --> 0:48:22.839 if their secondary market, why can't I share in that 0:48:22.960 --> 0:48:28.000 income because Live Nation is sharing in the upscale upsell 0:48:28.600 --> 0:48:31.759 on Live Nation shows, but they're also making money on 0:48:31.800 --> 0:48:33.640 my show. 0:48:34.760 --> 0:48:36.640 Yeah, but you, as the promoter can say I don't 0:48:36.640 --> 0:48:39.200 want to turn it on. So typically AG won't turn 0:48:39.239 --> 0:48:42.680 it on. They'll say it's my show and we don't 0:48:42.680 --> 0:48:46.200 want to turn on secondary in that venue. So the 0:48:46.239 --> 0:48:50.400 promoter has the right with his show in that venue 0:48:50.440 --> 0:48:53.320 to determine if if if TM does get turned on 0:48:53.480 --> 0:48:57.719 for the platform and well and the promoter. You know, 0:48:57.880 --> 0:48:59.920 remember the promoter is always going to go to the 0:49:00.160 --> 0:49:04.320 venue and say, in general, I want to get paid 0:49:04.560 --> 0:49:07.600 my rebate. So you know, his motive is always going 0:49:07.640 --> 0:49:12.080 to be whether however much money the venue makes. Your 0:49:12.160 --> 0:49:14.120 job is the promoter is to figure out how to 0:49:14.560 --> 0:49:15.640 increase your rebates. 0:49:16.920 --> 0:49:19.800 So theoretically, if you know it's an in demand show. 0:49:20.239 --> 0:49:23.440 The promoter would be aware of this and say I 0:49:23.520 --> 0:49:26.600 want to payment that in essence would be percentage of 0:49:26.640 --> 0:49:28.960 your fees that you're making on the resale. 0:49:30.400 --> 0:49:31.839 Yeah, I just want to make clear we don't get 0:49:31.840 --> 0:49:38.120 that misstated. The promoter in general isn't specifically saying give 0:49:38.160 --> 0:49:43.480 me The artist or the promoter aren't specifically saying give 0:49:43.520 --> 0:49:47.879 me some of that eight dollars or two dollars. That 0:49:47.920 --> 0:49:52.440 conversation doesn't happen. The venue has already got a relationship 0:49:52.440 --> 0:49:55.839 with the venue or the promoter, and the promoter is 0:49:55.840 --> 0:50:00.200 getting his five, eight, nine dollars rebate as a business overall. 0:50:01.800 --> 0:50:04.440 So if you are the venue and you want to 0:50:04.440 --> 0:50:07.359 turn it on, the promoter isn't going to worry about 0:50:07.400 --> 0:50:10.799 that one revenue stream that night. You're playing for the 0:50:10.880 --> 0:50:14.320 full year, and there are some days where the show 0:50:14.400 --> 0:50:16.919 loses money and the venues are great partners and help 0:50:17.000 --> 0:50:18.839 you out on the rent or help you out on 0:50:19.280 --> 0:50:22.160 you know, it's the bad shows. You want to save 0:50:22.239 --> 0:50:25.560 the good days for the venue, not the days they 0:50:25.560 --> 0:50:26.400 can make some money. 0:50:27.239 --> 0:50:30.360 Okay, let's talk about ticket prices. You know there have 0:50:30.400 --> 0:50:37.640 been some amplified examples like Springsteen. Okay, you mentioned Pearl Jam. 0:50:37.880 --> 0:50:42.440 It's a non transferable ticket. They're establishing the price. That's 0:50:42.480 --> 0:50:47.399 what it costs. But there are other acts. Let's use 0:50:47.440 --> 0:50:51.320 Springsteen who went over one hundred dollars, and people say, 0:50:51.920 --> 0:50:56.000 I am a die hard fan, i am entitled to 0:50:56.080 --> 0:50:58.640 be in the building. I'm entitled to get a good 0:50:58.719 --> 0:51:01.600 seat at a low price. These are the same. No, 0:51:01.719 --> 0:51:05.080 these are boomers mostly going to a Springstein show. If 0:51:05.080 --> 0:51:09.719 they go to dinner, it's one hundred dollars a person. Yeah, 0:51:09.920 --> 0:51:13.880 but for somehow to go to see Springsteen, one hundred 0:51:13.880 --> 0:51:19.239 dollars is too much. What's the reality of pricing and 0:51:19.400 --> 0:51:22.560 is it different for younger acts? And is it really 0:51:23.000 --> 0:51:25.280 we should just charge what the ticket is worth. 0:51:27.560 --> 0:51:31.440 It's a it's a really interesting complex problem, right. You 0:51:31.520 --> 0:51:35.920 have this fandom, as you know, that fan is so 0:51:36.080 --> 0:51:39.560 emotionally connected to that artist. They've listened a thousand times 0:51:41.160 --> 0:51:44.160 and they really believe they have rights. It's very different 0:51:44.719 --> 0:51:48.760 than sports, which is a badge of honor to say 0:51:48.960 --> 0:51:53.120 this court side's cost sixteen thousand dollars. You know, I 0:51:53.160 --> 0:51:55.799 was talking. I was talking little bron James the night 0:51:55.880 --> 0:52:00.399 he broke the record and ticket on points and I said, 0:52:00.440 --> 0:52:04.120 you know, lebron tonight to sit courtside Laker games ten 0:52:04.160 --> 0:52:07.160 to twenty thousand dollars, but they're mad. Beyonce's charge in 0:52:07.200 --> 0:52:11.799 eight hundred for one tour every five years. But it's 0:52:11.840 --> 0:52:14.319 a you know, the super Bowl. The sports business is 0:52:14.640 --> 0:52:17.440 kind of embraced. It's expensive and for some reason that 0:52:17.600 --> 0:52:21.719 Diehart fan doesn't get on Twitter and say that team 0:52:21.760 --> 0:52:25.760 owner is an asshole because I can't see the Lakers 0:52:25.800 --> 0:52:29.560 for sixty six dollars. So you're right, the fan is 0:52:29.760 --> 0:52:33.600 very mostly connected. They've got great outlets now on Twitter 0:52:33.640 --> 0:52:36.160 and other ways. They really believe that they have the 0:52:36.239 --> 0:52:39.640 right to see that artist. But the reality, as you said, Bob, 0:52:39.719 --> 0:52:44.920 then in this scarcity world of birkin bags and lbmhs 0:52:44.960 --> 0:52:48.640 that you wrote about last week, the live experience is 0:52:48.680 --> 0:52:52.719 a absolutely special moment in time. That front row is 0:52:52.760 --> 0:52:56.320 a birkin bag and more. It's a an exceptional product. 0:52:57.680 --> 0:52:59.960 And you're right, I do think the quicker the artists 0:53:00.040 --> 0:53:03.160 figure out that we got to charge closer to market 0:53:03.920 --> 0:53:06.239 for some of the seats. You know, Springsteen was a 0:53:06.239 --> 0:53:08.920 great example. It was only one percent of the seats 0:53:09.320 --> 0:53:12.400 were over one thousand dollars. All we did was transfer. 0:53:13.040 --> 0:53:16.359 Last tour, the tickets went right to the scalper and 0:53:16.400 --> 0:53:19.560 resold to the fan for two thousand dollars. So this 0:53:19.640 --> 0:53:21.600 time we just took those same tickets and said, Bruce, 0:53:21.600 --> 0:53:24.279 you should actually get the money, but let's make sure 0:53:24.320 --> 0:53:27.440 we keep the rest of the house cheap. But the 0:53:27.480 --> 0:53:30.800 stories don't get that headline. You know, ninety eight percent 0:53:30.800 --> 0:53:34.080 of my shows don't sell out. Most shows are very affordable, 0:53:34.480 --> 0:53:36.799 but you're going to have some burking bags in the 0:53:36.840 --> 0:53:39.720 Beyonces and the Drakes and the bad Bunnies and these 0:53:39.960 --> 0:53:43.960 these artists and the front rows are scarce business commodities. 0:53:45.520 --> 0:53:50.080 And I do think that, well the secondary exists free 0:53:50.160 --> 0:53:53.719 and free and clear in America, that you do have 0:53:53.800 --> 0:53:56.160 to start saying, then, if the fan is buying it 0:53:56.200 --> 0:53:59.960 from stub hub, they are fans, why wouldn't the artists 0:54:00.080 --> 0:54:04.440 participate in that art and have more of it? So 0:54:04.480 --> 0:54:07.040 I do think I think that they have to slowly 0:54:07.080 --> 0:54:10.640 start charging closer to market at the front end. Now 0:54:11.920 --> 0:54:13.960 you know, you know, we launched a fare ticket act, 0:54:13.960 --> 0:54:15.880 and I'm sure you'll mention all that, you know. I 0:54:15.880 --> 0:54:19.759 do believe that the reality is the Digital ticket is 0:54:19.800 --> 0:54:22.520 a great tool that could help us out in this mess. 0:54:22.880 --> 0:54:25.279 I mean, the mess we have right now is that 0:54:25.400 --> 0:54:29.160 creates the Twitter storms, is that fan comes at ten 0:54:29.200 --> 0:54:33.439 am and they're pissed off because at ten oh one 0:54:33.880 --> 0:54:37.640 it's sold out and there's ten pages of scalpers selling 0:54:37.680 --> 0:54:40.800 tickets for three hundred times face and I get the 0:54:40.880 --> 0:54:43.080 d ms and the hate mail and the and the 0:54:43.120 --> 0:54:44.880 death threats that say, you know you asked whole you 0:54:44.920 --> 0:54:46.879 must have given all those tickets to the scalper at 0:54:46.880 --> 0:54:51.000 ten o'clock. It's not fair. That's the drama that we created, 0:54:51.280 --> 0:54:53.600 right and we do our best with verified fan and 0:54:53.640 --> 0:54:56.200 speed bumps and it's but it's a it's an arms 0:54:56.280 --> 0:54:59.920 race because it's five billion dollars in secondary of vail 0:55:00.680 --> 0:55:04.319 to make a very very very high margin business. So 0:55:04.760 --> 0:55:08.000 while we're letting that run wild, then you either have 0:55:08.080 --> 0:55:10.719 to control it or you have to price to it. 0:55:11.200 --> 0:55:13.480 But I think if we let it run wild like 0:55:13.520 --> 0:55:16.399 we are today and then it's silly of us then 0:55:16.480 --> 0:55:18.680 not to let the artists participate in some of that 0:55:19.760 --> 0:55:22.080 and price it better. Or we got to control it, 0:55:22.120 --> 0:55:25.400 and we could with digital ticketing. We could tomorrow just 0:55:25.440 --> 0:55:27.880 say there's a cap on it, or there's some rules 0:55:27.880 --> 0:55:30.120 around it. A lot of countries in the world have 0:55:30.560 --> 0:55:32.960 figured out this is probably not a great idea to 0:55:33.080 --> 0:55:36.880 run wild and have fans have to pay these prices. 0:55:38.239 --> 0:55:40.720 So I do think that it should be some control 0:55:40.760 --> 0:55:44.600 put in place, so we could put some limits on it. 0:55:45.320 --> 0:55:46.560 I don't have a lot of faith that we can 0:55:46.560 --> 0:55:49.440 get much done in the government probably right now, or monitored, 0:55:49.600 --> 0:55:53.560 or actually execute it properly. So I think you do 0:55:53.600 --> 0:55:56.239 then have to say, probably have to price closer to 0:55:56.320 --> 0:55:58.719 market for some of those front rows and some of 0:55:58.719 --> 0:56:03.560 those seats. So the artist who's already paying that anyways, 0:56:03.560 --> 0:56:06.360 they're paying it today. It's not that it gets not 0:56:06.440 --> 0:56:09.160 being paid, it's just not being monetized by the artist. 0:56:10.719 --> 0:56:16.279 Would you say people complaining about excessive ticket prices is 0:56:16.400 --> 0:56:20.160 more of a boomer gen X phenomenon as opposed to 0:56:20.320 --> 0:56:21.760 younger acts. 0:56:23.200 --> 0:56:26.439 Yeah, it's this. It's an interesting you know, to see 0:56:26.440 --> 0:56:30.760 that which ones do flare up? As you're right. I 0:56:30.920 --> 0:56:33.239 sat at the Bad Bunny Stadium show here in La 0:56:34.280 --> 0:56:40.200 credible show, credible performer with the third highest grossing stadium 0:56:40.280 --> 0:56:46.160 in history. He broke most records, and I said, I 0:56:46.200 --> 0:56:50.000 said to his manager, credible. The fans are, they're dancing, 0:56:50.040 --> 0:56:52.719 they're having their blast, they dressed up. This is a 0:56:52.760 --> 0:56:56.040 party tonight. And the tickets were you know, price well, 0:56:57.160 --> 0:56:59.880 but there was no social about it. But but definitely 0:56:59.920 --> 0:57:02.480 the the Springsteen fans seem to get really upset, even 0:57:02.480 --> 0:57:05.560 though it was probably much older and richer. So it 0:57:05.600 --> 0:57:07.200 did seem a bit ironic that week. 0:57:08.239 --> 0:57:12.200 The other thing that people don't realize is the very 0:57:12.280 --> 0:57:15.960 expensive tickets are not only going to the rich. The 0:57:16.160 --> 0:57:20.320 hardcore fan will pay that price, even if I hear 0:57:20.320 --> 0:57:23.160 from them all the time, even I'm stubum, and they're 0:57:23.360 --> 0:57:25.320 very happy about being that close. 0:57:26.000 --> 0:57:27.440 I so agree with you, Bob. I said this to 0:57:27.480 --> 0:57:30.920 an artist last week who went on this low ticket price, 0:57:30.960 --> 0:57:34.280 and I just like you, just you know, you're missing it. 0:57:34.840 --> 0:57:37.440 I came from no money and I remember going to 0:57:37.480 --> 0:57:42.560 my Robert Plant tour in uh In, Toronto from Thunder 0:57:42.560 --> 0:57:45.720 Bay on a bus and yes, I saved my money 0:57:45.720 --> 0:57:48.400 and I worked hard and it was all my money 0:57:48.400 --> 0:57:50.400 for that month or whatever it was. But that was 0:57:50.440 --> 0:57:53.640 a great experience. And you know, I get these emails 0:57:53.640 --> 0:57:55.160 now from someone that says, oh my god, I had 0:57:55.200 --> 0:57:57.919 to work two jobs to get to the Bad Bunny Show. 0:57:58.000 --> 0:58:02.240 And yeah, you know most most people look at concerts 0:58:02.240 --> 0:58:05.400 as a really special moment in their kodact life. It's 0:58:05.920 --> 0:58:09.880 it's magic moment maybe twice a year. Way cheaper than 0:58:10.040 --> 0:58:13.000 Disneyland or the super Bowl, or the NFL or the 0:58:13.080 --> 0:58:16.560 NBA playoffs or or an expensive night out. So it's 0:58:16.760 --> 0:58:20.960 really cheap overall considering. And you're right, this is not 0:58:21.160 --> 0:58:24.400 that the that the this just the rich people. This 0:58:24.520 --> 0:58:27.160 is a great, great product that people will buy as 0:58:27.160 --> 0:58:29.480 they're going to buy the Gucci bag. They're going to 0:58:29.560 --> 0:58:33.560 buy moments in life where they will step up and 0:58:33.720 --> 0:58:36.400 spoil themselves at the big screen TV or whatever it 0:58:36.400 --> 0:58:38.720 may be. But you're right, this is a business where 0:58:38.880 --> 0:58:41.680 we can charge a bit more. I'm not saying excessively, 0:58:42.160 --> 0:58:45.200 but it's it's a great two hour performance of a 0:58:45.240 --> 0:58:49.400 lifetime that happens once every three four years in that market. 0:58:50.320 --> 0:58:53.480 You don't have to underprice yourself. Low low to middle 0:58:54.360 --> 0:58:56.680 income we'll we'll, we'll, we'll make their way to that 0:58:56.720 --> 0:58:57.919 arena for that special night. 0:58:59.080 --> 0:59:03.400 About twenty years ago, the concept of platinum started. You 0:59:03.480 --> 0:59:06.640 got a seat very close to the stage, you might 0:59:06.680 --> 0:59:08.960 get to eat meat, a member of the band, you 0:59:09.040 --> 0:59:12.800 might get to hear a sound check, whatever. We learned 0:59:12.800 --> 0:59:15.600 that the extras weren't what we're selling the tickets. People 0:59:15.640 --> 0:59:20.400 just wanted the good seats. But when it came to Springsteen, 0:59:20.560 --> 0:59:25.200 the term platinum was used for tickets that were not 0:59:25.520 --> 0:59:30.800 right up front, and in addition, those were dynamically priced. 0:59:31.560 --> 0:59:32.680 How did we get there? 0:59:34.800 --> 0:59:41.720 Yeah, you're right, the platinum, the VIP tickets, no different 0:59:41.760 --> 0:59:46.240 ways where there were higher ticket prices outside of thep ones, 0:59:46.760 --> 0:59:49.600 And you're right, they all got bought, regardless of whether 0:59:49.600 --> 0:59:52.880 it was a cocktail, shrimp and a laminate. It was 0:59:52.960 --> 0:59:57.720 just the good seats and they bought them. So recently, 0:59:57.840 --> 1:00:01.160 over the last five years a those sound checks and 1:00:01.200 --> 1:00:05.040 meet and greets and VIPs, especially through COVID, before and 1:00:05.120 --> 1:00:07.720 after it started to wean out, they were the cost 1:00:07.800 --> 1:00:12.800 to execute. They weren't that special anymore, and the business 1:00:12.800 --> 1:00:15.880 converted to more of a platinum ticket. Let's just charge 1:00:15.920 --> 1:00:20.400 for those good seats. Let's put some seats into an 1:00:20.440 --> 1:00:24.320 allocation where they're more than the pre ones and we 1:00:24.360 --> 1:00:30.360 can price them better. Started five eight years ago, band 1:00:30.400 --> 1:00:32.560 started to embrace this idea that there was an idea 1:00:32.560 --> 1:00:35.480 and again, artists are always just looking at the other 1:00:35.520 --> 1:00:39.800 side of the equation. As everyday secondary got more sunlight 1:00:40.360 --> 1:00:43.400 and went from the streets to the internet, and you 1:00:43.440 --> 1:00:48.160 could start seeing what they were paying the obviously the artist, 1:00:48.200 --> 1:00:49.960 the manager of the agent, promoter. We all looked at 1:00:49.960 --> 1:00:52.600 that and went, geez, look what's happening over here. How 1:00:52.640 --> 1:00:55.520 are we going to get the artists to charge closer 1:00:56.640 --> 1:00:58.920 to market on some of the good seats. So that 1:00:59.200 --> 1:01:04.960 that's when Platinum launched. It's done really well. Dynamics started 1:01:06.360 --> 1:01:08.280 same thing eight nine years ago when you started just 1:01:08.360 --> 1:01:10.720 we started with price Master, where you started to say, 1:01:10.720 --> 1:01:14.200 there's different you know, this scaling shouldn't be the same 1:01:14.520 --> 1:01:19.440 most dynamic products, hotels, airlines aren't sergeant the same on 1:01:19.520 --> 1:01:21.520 the last day, in the first day of the middle seat. 1:01:22.080 --> 1:01:24.240 So we started price Master years ago to say to 1:01:24.280 --> 1:01:26.400 the artist, you know, a Friday night in New York 1:01:26.440 --> 1:01:28.400 should not be the same ticket price as a Tuesday 1:01:28.400 --> 1:01:31.400 in Cleveland. The aisle seat's worth more than the middle 1:01:31.680 --> 1:01:34.959 You can monetize the house smarter, you can sell it out, 1:01:35.840 --> 1:01:38.800 set charge less for the back seats more for the front. 1:01:40.040 --> 1:01:42.520 Said it as three scalings, which was always kind of 1:01:42.520 --> 1:01:46.360 the thirty years of doing three scalings and same markets 1:01:46.400 --> 1:01:50.000 all the time. So dynamic price Master had been used 1:01:50.040 --> 1:01:53.840 for the last probably eight years. And I think coming 1:01:53.840 --> 1:01:59.040 out of COVID dynamic platinum adding more increasing the allocation, 1:01:59.640 --> 1:02:02.400 the dry got a little sexy, and more and more 1:02:02.480 --> 1:02:05.320 artists started putting and promoters we started putting more in 1:02:05.400 --> 1:02:12.120 the platinum allocation to increase the gross and I think we're, uh, 1:02:13.040 --> 1:02:16.360 you know, I think we're learning now. H We've we've 1:02:16.360 --> 1:02:18.880 got to watch. If the definition of platinum is going 1:02:18.920 --> 1:02:22.240 to be platinum, we better make sure it's a platinum seat. 1:02:22.920 --> 1:02:25.920 And if we're gonna dynamic, we better put better rules 1:02:25.960 --> 1:02:31.720 in place on when we change ticket pricing, not not 1:02:31.720 --> 1:02:33.640 not in the price sale not or not in the 1:02:33.680 --> 1:02:37.920 on sale. So we're I think we're I think we're 1:02:37.920 --> 1:02:41.120 as an industry or learning how to price dynamic tickets 1:02:41.160 --> 1:02:45.480 to demand. And that's kind of what's been going on today. 1:02:45.560 --> 1:02:48.120 I think we're slowly putting better rules in place to 1:02:48.120 --> 1:02:49.680 figure out how to do it smartly. 1:02:50.360 --> 1:02:56.760 Let's use Springsteen as an example. Demand was heavy and 1:02:56.920 --> 1:03:01.280 tickets in the platinum area spike to momultiple four figures. 1:03:01.760 --> 1:03:06.280 Anybody experienced in the business knows. No one's buying those 1:03:06.280 --> 1:03:09.560 tickets at those excessive prices. They're waiting for them to 1:03:09.600 --> 1:03:16.840 come down. What happened there was that purely a program, 1:03:16.840 --> 1:03:21.440 an algorithm. Was that something Spreedsteam was aware of in 1:03:21.520 --> 1:03:26.280 advance how expensive the ticket should be. Is this something 1:03:26.280 --> 1:03:28.640 that needs to be done by hand? Was it done 1:03:28.640 --> 1:03:31.480 by hand? Yeah? 1:03:31.520 --> 1:03:34.720 Again, artists are you know, as you and I talked 1:03:34.720 --> 1:03:37.520 about there, there's nothing done in price in that a agent, 1:03:37.640 --> 1:03:41.680 artist manager aren't agreeing too. There's no no promoter gets 1:03:41.720 --> 1:03:45.680 to just run the clock. It's all part of your plan. Listen. 1:03:45.720 --> 1:03:49.880 I think we're as an industry, we're still learning what 1:03:49.920 --> 1:03:53.320 it means to dynamic and platinum. And you're right, there 1:03:53.360 --> 1:03:56.760 are a few tours where you put a few tickets 1:03:56.760 --> 1:04:00.000 in this twenty five hundred up to five thousand dollars 1:04:00.040 --> 1:04:02.280 limit and said, let's put some platinums at that price. 1:04:03.480 --> 1:04:07.040 Reality is ten of those sell. It's not a smart 1:04:07.040 --> 1:04:09.520 strategy because the headline's so bad, but the volume is 1:04:09.560 --> 1:04:13.480 not there. I think that's a lesson quickly learned. I 1:04:13.480 --> 1:04:16.000 don't think you're seeing a lot of platinum now. That's 1:04:16.000 --> 1:04:18.600 probably more than a thousand seems to be the quick 1:04:18.680 --> 1:04:22.600 learning curve. I know we did it in Vegas and others, 1:04:22.640 --> 1:04:26.600 So I think the imperfect science of how do we 1:04:27.200 --> 1:04:31.760 manage the secondary business that's going to boom instantly at 1:04:31.760 --> 1:04:35.480 ten o'clock, how do we get some of that captured 1:04:35.480 --> 1:04:39.200 on this side of the ledger. The pricing isn't perfect 1:04:39.320 --> 1:04:44.000 right now, and it is manually done, not complete algorithms. 1:04:44.240 --> 1:04:46.640 You're looking at algorithms to figure out the pricing of 1:04:46.680 --> 1:04:51.080 secondary and demand to come up with a range. But 1:04:51.160 --> 1:04:55.120 I think we're quickly learning on platinum. Any major tour, 1:04:55.800 --> 1:04:58.200 whether you can really sell a thirty three hundred dollars 1:04:58.200 --> 1:05:01.560 ticket or a twenty seven isn't worth the small upside 1:05:01.920 --> 1:05:04.440 You probably should just put some good platinum somewhere in 1:05:04.480 --> 1:05:07.120 the five to one thousand dollars range seems to be 1:05:07.160 --> 1:05:09.920 the sweet spot right now where you can sell a 1:05:09.960 --> 1:05:12.680 decent scale of those in the good seats and the 1:05:12.680 --> 1:05:16.200 good sections and be happy with that uplift that didn't 1:05:16.200 --> 1:05:17.280 go to the secondary. 1:05:24.720 --> 1:05:31.080 Okay, conventional wisdom is that ticket Master is a monopoly. 1:05:31.640 --> 1:05:35.520 You hear this from elected officials, you hear this from 1:05:35.960 --> 1:05:38.600 ticket buyers. What is your response to that. 1:05:41.240 --> 1:05:45.600 You know, it's a it's a business that when we 1:05:45.720 --> 1:05:51.480 merged ten years ago, the DOJ in there. I think 1:05:51.720 --> 1:05:55.400 IRV and I spent eighteen months going through that process 1:05:56.000 --> 1:06:00.880 of the DJ digging in deep. So and when the 1:06:00.920 --> 1:06:05.040 DOJ digs in deep, I mean there's ten thousand emails later. 1:06:05.200 --> 1:06:10.000 So they did that when we merged and let the 1:06:10.480 --> 1:06:13.160 let the let the acquisition go through. They let the 1:06:13.240 --> 1:06:16.560 merger happen. So that that's step one that says they 1:06:16.560 --> 1:06:18.680 didn't believe it was a monopoly. You know, it couldn't 1:06:18.720 --> 1:06:21.320 find facts that said Ticketmaster was a monopoly, or they 1:06:21.320 --> 1:06:26.440 wouldn't approved it. We agreed to a dissent degree for 1:06:26.480 --> 1:06:29.240 ten years that said we will absolutely then if there 1:06:29.280 --> 1:06:37.280 is concern, we won't leverage. We won't punish any venue 1:06:37.280 --> 1:06:41.320 that doesn't use Ticketmaster. And that went on for ten years. 1:06:43.120 --> 1:06:45.640 I think it was the ninth year. DJ opened up 1:06:45.680 --> 1:06:49.160 the case again four or five years ago now said 1:06:49.160 --> 1:06:51.680 we have a couple of cases where we think you 1:06:54.040 --> 1:06:56.760 threaten threaten the venue and front of the venue means 1:06:56.800 --> 1:07:00.680 you know, a random promoter. And of my nine said 1:07:00.720 --> 1:07:02.520 you should renew a Ticketmaster. You're not going to get 1:07:02.520 --> 1:07:04.680 a show. I mean, this isn't like you know of 1:07:04.760 --> 1:07:07.840 thousands and thousands of shows, and nine years later, this 1:07:07.880 --> 1:07:11.080 isn't as we always said, this isn't an ongoing structural 1:07:11.320 --> 1:07:14.920 reality doesn't happen. And by the way, those venues when 1:07:14.960 --> 1:07:17.120 you looked at him, they didn't actually get reduced. Show 1:07:17.160 --> 1:07:21.080 camp facts didn't support that, so there was no real 1:07:21.360 --> 1:07:25.760 actual venue that got punished. We just decided at that 1:07:25.800 --> 1:07:28.720 point that we would extend the decree for five years, 1:07:29.880 --> 1:07:31.600 as you always do, to make sure you just kind 1:07:31.600 --> 1:07:34.720 of simplify this case and move on. But they spent 1:07:34.800 --> 1:07:38.800 a year deposing me and going through it again. That 1:07:38.920 --> 1:07:41.200 was the three or four years ago. So again I 1:07:41.200 --> 1:07:45.240 would say to you, if we were the monopoly a 1:07:45.320 --> 1:07:48.040 year after the DOJ probing, you trust me, if there 1:07:48.080 --> 1:07:52.959 was real structural legal data that said Live Live Nation, 1:07:53.160 --> 1:07:59.560 Ticketmaster together, single or momopoly, they would have sued us, 1:07:59.720 --> 1:08:03.680 done something, gave us a five year extension, and moved on. 1:08:04.280 --> 1:08:08.080 So you know, it's not like we haven't been already 1:08:08.120 --> 1:08:11.760 investigated deep and haven't seen every email I've ever written 1:08:11.800 --> 1:08:14.760 and everyone else's and all of our promoters and ticket Master, 1:08:15.200 --> 1:08:18.280 they've been down the deep dive many times. So I 1:08:18.360 --> 1:08:21.040 say that in the sense of, you know, that's kind 1:08:21.040 --> 1:08:24.559 of a clean bill of health to date. Now I 1:08:24.640 --> 1:08:28.640 understand why it's easy to jump on the wagon. The 1:08:28.720 --> 1:08:31.240 ticket master and the service fees and what you and 1:08:31.320 --> 1:08:33.200 I've been talking about. We haven't done a good job 1:08:33.640 --> 1:08:36.920 as an industry, especially on my front as Live Nation Ticketmaster, 1:08:37.640 --> 1:08:41.920 explaining out loud what happens to fees, how they're set, 1:08:42.439 --> 1:08:44.920 what happens. It hasn't been a It hasn't been a 1:08:44.920 --> 1:08:47.360 big motive historically for me to kind of go out 1:08:47.400 --> 1:08:49.479 loud and say, hey, the venue, my client has taken 1:08:49.520 --> 1:08:51.200 most of the money, or the artist is setting the 1:08:51.200 --> 1:08:53.880 ticket price. I'm a B to B business. I serviced 1:08:53.880 --> 1:08:56.800 the artists and venue and Ticketmaster's job is to been 1:08:56.960 --> 1:08:59.240 to take that punch in the head for the industry. 1:08:59.520 --> 1:09:03.040 That's been part of what people do why they hire you. 1:09:03.560 --> 1:09:06.240 There's no glory in being the ticketing company who no 1:09:06.280 --> 1:09:10.599 matter who you are, Sea Geek, Access, anyone, they all 1:09:10.640 --> 1:09:13.720 have the same challenges when there's ten million fans that 1:09:13.800 --> 1:09:18.519 want a million tickets and then secondary So I understand 1:09:18.520 --> 1:09:21.400 why the flurry of energy can be spent on it 1:09:21.600 --> 1:09:24.080 because it looks big and it looks like there's service 1:09:24.160 --> 1:09:27.760 ticket master fees and challenges, but we don't think there's 1:09:27.760 --> 1:09:30.360 any basis to a legal challenge that says in any 1:09:30.400 --> 1:09:35.320 way we're monopoly. Our margins prove that our daily battles 1:09:35.360 --> 1:09:37.840 to win that venue or lose that venue or win 1:09:37.920 --> 1:09:43.679 that tour are live and well that's well documented. There's 1:09:43.680 --> 1:09:46.120 nothing wrong with being big, nothing wrong with being great, 1:09:46.200 --> 1:09:48.519 nothing wrong with offering a great product and being better 1:09:48.560 --> 1:09:51.559 than the other guy and winning. We don't set ticket prices. 1:09:51.560 --> 1:09:55.080 We're not harming fans. Artists have all the options in 1:09:55.120 --> 1:09:56.519 the world. Do you know that as well as I do. 1:09:56.560 --> 1:09:59.840 There's only one aerosmith that has one hundred dates of 1:09:59.840 --> 1:10:03.720 a and a thousand venues that want those dates and 1:10:03.760 --> 1:10:08.760 every promoter and partner that wants it. So the business is, 1:10:09.000 --> 1:10:12.240 you know, widely misunderstood. As you know outside of the industry, 1:10:13.720 --> 1:10:16.400 big as big as an easy target. Ticketing is an 1:10:16.400 --> 1:10:20.720 easy target. But on the fundamentals on a monopoly, no, 1:10:21.040 --> 1:10:22.960 we're We're far from that. 1:10:25.080 --> 1:10:32.000 So let's go a little deeper here. Administrations change, and 1:10:32.200 --> 1:10:36.320 presently under Biden, the woman who's head of the FTC 1:10:36.560 --> 1:10:41.000 lead at Khan is very active. Everything that she has 1:10:41.200 --> 1:10:46.320 tried to uh get through has not ultimately passed. But 1:10:46.600 --> 1:10:50.639 inside the business, it's well known that she is looking 1:10:51.080 --> 1:10:57.680 at ticket Master in Live Nation questions of monopoly antitrust? 1:10:58.240 --> 1:11:01.360 Are they asking you for information? Do you have a 1:11:01.479 --> 1:11:04.160 team at Live Nation who is dealing with this? 1:11:06.080 --> 1:11:08.400 Yeah, just to be clear, though they there tends to 1:11:08.439 --> 1:11:11.280 be you tend to either deal with the FTC or 1:11:11.320 --> 1:11:13.720 the DOJ, and they kind of split it up. If 1:11:13.760 --> 1:11:17.400 they're going to probe, it's the DOJ that are doing 1:11:17.439 --> 1:11:19.880 the investigation on us right now, not the FTC. So 1:11:21.120 --> 1:11:23.519 that wouldn't be in not that she couldn't, but she 1:11:23.600 --> 1:11:25.800 wouldn't be doing it if they're doing it. So right now, 1:11:25.840 --> 1:11:30.799 we have been working with the DOJ since November, providing 1:11:30.840 --> 1:11:32.960 them all of the data. They want to take a 1:11:32.960 --> 1:11:35.840 look at our business and see if there's any new 1:11:35.920 --> 1:11:40.639 data that would support any thesises around our ticket monopoly 1:11:41.120 --> 1:11:45.639 or descent decree. So we're working with them and that's 1:11:45.840 --> 1:11:48.639 that'll be an ongoing process and somewhere in the next 1:11:49.080 --> 1:11:52.160 somewhere this year. The sad part about the DJ is 1:11:52.160 --> 1:11:54.280 they get to kind of leak when they're looking at you, 1:11:54.320 --> 1:11:56.599 but you don't really get a final date when you're 1:11:56.640 --> 1:11:58.519 going to be done with it. So we'll live that 1:11:58.600 --> 1:12:00.920 this year and be cooperative with them, But we don't 1:12:01.200 --> 1:12:04.519 we think legally. Dan Wall, who now works for US 1:12:04.560 --> 1:12:07.000 full time, has not a great great article on kind 1:12:07.000 --> 1:12:10.240 of the technical legal part the DOJ and the case. 1:12:10.280 --> 1:12:15.000 So we think we're complying and we'll we'll get through this. 1:12:15.760 --> 1:12:18.639 What do you say to the people who say, since 1:12:18.640 --> 1:12:22.240 you have an excess of fifty percent market share, you're 1:12:22.320 --> 1:12:23.760 inherently a monopoly. 1:12:27.200 --> 1:12:30.200 Yeah, don't. I don't you know the market share? You know? 1:12:30.240 --> 1:12:32.200 I could go down a whole bunch of you're a lawyer, 1:12:32.240 --> 1:12:33.920 so I could go down a whole bunch of paths 1:12:33.960 --> 1:12:37.640 on how big a market how big is the competition 1:12:37.720 --> 1:12:40.599 today versus when we merged. I don't have fifty percent 1:12:40.680 --> 1:12:42.439 market share with you, and I can debate how to 1:12:42.479 --> 1:12:47.080 define market share. There's thousands of venues, there's lots of promoters. 1:12:48.080 --> 1:12:50.479 The math will say on promoting side, I don't have 1:12:50.560 --> 1:12:55.240 fifty percent in America. And when you look at the festivals, 1:12:55.240 --> 1:12:59.360 the ticketing, the arenas, the theaters, the clubs, there's more 1:12:59.360 --> 1:13:03.360 competition ticketing today than there was ten years ago. Seakeek 1:13:03.360 --> 1:13:07.280 today announcing going public. Stub Hub Access didn't exist. I 1:13:07.320 --> 1:13:10.680 mean when we merged this company, there was nobody. We 1:13:10.760 --> 1:13:14.320 had to white label our software to AEG for three 1:13:14.400 --> 1:13:18.880 years so we could start a competitor called Access. That 1:13:19.000 --> 1:13:23.040 was the mandate from the DOJ. But that was at 1:13:23.080 --> 1:13:24.559 a time when they didn't think we're and they didn't 1:13:24.560 --> 1:13:26.960 think we're operly. Then there wasn't even close to the 1:13:27.000 --> 1:13:30.280 competitive nature there is today. So I would say to 1:13:30.280 --> 1:13:34.320 you we we have grown globally really well. In America. 1:13:34.400 --> 1:13:38.120 Our market share since we merged to today has gone down. 1:13:39.920 --> 1:13:44.519 Sea Geek, Access have taken more venues because they didn't 1:13:44.560 --> 1:13:48.519 exist when we merged. So today, if you're a venue bob, 1:13:49.320 --> 1:13:51.920 you're going to have no there's no debate. You're going 1:13:51.960 --> 1:13:54.280 to be able to say, I got three great competitive 1:13:54.280 --> 1:13:58.840 options that I can get the best deal I want 1:13:58.920 --> 1:14:01.640 from Access, see Geek or ticket Master. I don't have 1:14:01.720 --> 1:14:04.320 to pick ticket Master. Take Master maybe better than the 1:14:04.320 --> 1:14:07.360 other ones that might have better technology. They may they 1:14:07.400 --> 1:14:09.439 may they may have a better product, and that's where 1:14:09.439 --> 1:14:11.760 we tend to win. But you don't have to pick 1:14:11.840 --> 1:14:16.120 us as the Washington Redskins or Commanders just picked Seakeeek 1:14:16.160 --> 1:14:20.360 for their stadium. So, you know, we think it's still 1:14:20.400 --> 1:14:24.559 a really competitive business. Our margins are the best ultimate 1:14:24.680 --> 1:14:28.760 dictation of that. If you're if you have margins of 1:14:28.800 --> 1:14:32.880 where we are, you're you're not exerting or leveraging any 1:14:32.960 --> 1:14:37.559 power against your your your your, your user base. So 1:14:37.600 --> 1:14:40.240 we think the artists have great options. We think venues 1:14:40.280 --> 1:14:43.960 have great options. We think we've been able to demonstrate that, 1:14:44.040 --> 1:14:46.600 and we think the market's more competitive today than it 1:14:46.680 --> 1:14:50.559 was before. Even as big and strong and great as 1:14:50.560 --> 1:14:54.000 our businesses globally, we still think there's competition. 1:14:54.880 --> 1:14:59.840 Okay, in other territories ticketing is different and the you 1:15:00.160 --> 1:15:05.559 k there are multiple ticket sellers for venues. Can you 1:15:05.680 --> 1:15:10.200 explain a how that works and how you're involved in that, 1:15:10.800 --> 1:15:15.160 and b you have your competitors who I speak with 1:15:15.439 --> 1:15:18.760 who want that model in the US, so if you 1:15:18.760 --> 1:15:19.679 could address that. 1:15:21.400 --> 1:15:27.840 Yeah, the UK, I think, you know, Germany is not 1:15:28.000 --> 1:15:32.040 really like that a little bit. But yeah, So historically 1:15:32.040 --> 1:15:35.479 outside of America, it was an allocation market. If you 1:15:35.479 --> 1:15:41.240 were the venue, you allocated to multiple ticketing companies. The 1:15:41.760 --> 1:15:48.760 exclusive venue model was a US red model. I would 1:15:48.840 --> 1:15:50.760 say to you though, that if you look at where 1:15:50.800 --> 1:15:56.559 the trend is going internationally. Generally, as the new buildings 1:15:56.560 --> 1:15:59.760 are being built, they're looking to go to a more 1:15:59.760 --> 1:16:03.360 exit exclusive model because they're you know, think about the 1:16:03.400 --> 1:16:07.240 difference in internationalist. They didn't have NBA, NHL arenas they 1:16:07.280 --> 1:16:10.599 have soccer stadiums, so not a lot of things were built. 1:16:11.400 --> 1:16:14.479 As the new buildings were being built, whether it's a 1:16:14.520 --> 1:16:19.479 soccer or or a hockey arena, they tend to now go, 1:16:19.560 --> 1:16:22.120 you know what, if I'm building a billion dollar arena 1:16:22.400 --> 1:16:27.280 or a football stadium, I should go monetize my ticketing rights, 1:16:28.080 --> 1:16:31.080 and I probably could get somebody to pay me more 1:16:31.120 --> 1:16:34.479 money to have exclusive ticketing rights than three people have 1:16:34.560 --> 1:16:37.640 the rights. So that's where the model grows out. So 1:16:37.680 --> 1:16:40.120 you look now at some of the businesses in the UK, 1:16:40.840 --> 1:16:45.360 the football businesses, they tend to go exclusive. Now SEEKIK 1:16:45.400 --> 1:16:49.200 had a few, We have a few. So I would say, 1:16:49.360 --> 1:16:52.360 you know, I think the venues as they get built, 1:16:52.400 --> 1:16:54.920 and you build a building, your job is to figure 1:16:54.920 --> 1:16:56.719 out where am I going to get paid the most 1:16:56.920 --> 1:17:01.559 for all of my revenue streams. And I think you're 1:17:01.560 --> 1:17:03.559 starting to see some of those venues say I actually 1:17:03.600 --> 1:17:07.960 think I can monetize it differently. Now, I'll back up up. 1:17:08.040 --> 1:17:12.240 I'm not you know, the golden child that says that 1:17:12.320 --> 1:17:16.760 all has to be exclusive. That's the model I inherited. 1:17:16.800 --> 1:17:19.599 It's been working in this industry for long before my time. 1:17:20.000 --> 1:17:26.479 It's the model we run to date. I'm not telling 1:17:26.520 --> 1:17:29.440 you that I think the future needs to be exclusive. 1:17:30.640 --> 1:17:34.680 I could Ticketmaster could operate on an allocation model as 1:17:34.720 --> 1:17:37.720 well as an exclusive model and do really well. The 1:17:37.760 --> 1:17:41.639 irony is the double side of the venue is if 1:17:41.640 --> 1:17:43.280 you go back to the venue and say, great, you're 1:17:43.280 --> 1:17:45.960 not going to be exclusive, we don't have to pay 1:17:46.000 --> 1:17:50.080 as much. I'll be happy to sell sixty percent of 1:17:50.120 --> 1:17:53.559 your tickets without having to buy exclusivity. If that's the 1:17:53.600 --> 1:17:56.200 model we want to market. So it's a balance, right, 1:17:56.680 --> 1:18:00.000 I don't have to be exclusive. The cost of exclusive, 1:18:00.120 --> 1:18:03.160 so in the industry is expensive. Now the venues have 1:18:03.200 --> 1:18:06.800 done a good job charging a very real premium for that, 1:18:07.560 --> 1:18:10.320 and maybe at a certain point the business model is 1:18:10.360 --> 1:18:14.320 better for everybody, meaning the ticket master and companies if 1:18:14.320 --> 1:18:18.360 we don't have exclusive because the best, the best seller 1:18:18.439 --> 1:18:21.680 still wins in the end. Okay, just to be. 1:18:21.840 --> 1:18:24.640 Very very clear for those not in the know in 1:18:24.760 --> 1:18:27.679 the UK, let's just use an example of three ticket 1:18:27.760 --> 1:18:33.040 resellers or ticket sellers actually A do they pay the venue? 1:18:33.520 --> 1:18:37.080 B do they pull inventory from the same database. 1:18:39.479 --> 1:18:42.599 No, you're going to have a you know again, if 1:18:42.640 --> 1:18:45.400 you look what's happening. AE g owns the O two arena, 1:18:46.320 --> 1:18:49.719 So they're gonna in theory, they favor their ticketing company, 1:18:49.880 --> 1:18:53.200 just like CTS does in Germany. So they're going to 1:18:53.280 --> 1:18:56.640 run the They're going to run their database, the central database. 1:18:56.920 --> 1:19:00.240 They're going to give most allocation to their own ticket companmpany, 1:19:00.800 --> 1:19:03.200 and then they're going to give as limited amount of 1:19:03.479 --> 1:19:06.680 as tickets as they can to us and others to 1:19:06.920 --> 1:19:10.639 kind of finish off the market. But it's not a 1:19:10.760 --> 1:19:14.479 free for all allocated. How to three companies equally access 1:19:14.520 --> 1:19:16.800 that venue. I could give you the opposite there where 1:19:17.400 --> 1:19:19.760 we're not getting paid or have the same allocation as 1:19:19.800 --> 1:19:23.360 the venue because they're allocating to their own company, but 1:19:23.600 --> 1:19:28.559 it's off one database, and they would the venue would 1:19:28.560 --> 1:19:32.320 pay a piece of the service feed to the ticketing companies, 1:19:32.479 --> 1:19:35.320 So the ticket companies would get a piece of the 1:19:35.360 --> 1:19:37.440 service fee for the tickets they sold. 1:19:38.560 --> 1:19:44.200 But there's no advance from the other companies to the venue. 1:19:46.600 --> 1:19:50.080 It's starting now. Yes, there are because your job because 1:19:50.120 --> 1:19:52.840 what really happens now is you want to be the 1:19:53.439 --> 1:19:56.120 You want to get a higher percentage of the allocation. 1:19:57.000 --> 1:19:59.400 So you're now going to start paying to be in 1:19:59.520 --> 1:20:02.720 pollpase position of the good seats and more of them. 1:20:03.479 --> 1:20:07.080 So that's where it's morphine. The venue is now figured out. 1:20:07.080 --> 1:20:09.559 Oh someone will pay me. You know, you can us 1:20:09.600 --> 1:20:12.679 to wake up and say here here ticket companies for free, 1:20:12.720 --> 1:20:15.800 take all my tickets. Good luck. You're going to start going. 1:20:15.880 --> 1:20:19.439 Someone wants the good seats and so we'll pay me 1:20:19.479 --> 1:20:23.680 for it. So we are now competitively doing that as 1:20:23.720 --> 1:20:27.479 an industry, and festivals tend to be more one one company. 1:20:28.680 --> 1:20:36.040 Let's talk about traditional new building arena meaning they have skyboxes, etc. 1:20:37.160 --> 1:20:41.880 Inside there's always an issue of all the tickets are 1:20:41.920 --> 1:20:45.360 not on the manifest. You reference this earlier, but can 1:20:45.439 --> 1:20:46.960 you explain from my audience. 1:20:48.520 --> 1:20:52.320 Yeah, generally a venue in America, I'm you know, we're 1:20:52.320 --> 1:20:55.919 going to talk arenas and stadiums. You know their primary 1:20:55.920 --> 1:20:59.679 business is to sell that sports team season tickets, sweet 1:20:59.720 --> 1:21:05.519 spotship and as you're selling those eighty games whatever the 1:21:05.520 --> 1:21:11.400 sport is, the sponsorship, you know, your your box and 1:21:11.439 --> 1:21:15.360 your premium seats are only you know, exciting for how 1:21:15.360 --> 1:21:17.960 many of those eighty games. So the best way to 1:21:18.680 --> 1:21:23.799 deliver that box season ticket sponsor is to say, listen, 1:21:24.720 --> 1:21:26.599 spend this much money. You're going to get the season 1:21:26.600 --> 1:21:29.559 tickets for the hockey team. You're also going to get 1:21:29.600 --> 1:21:32.760 it for the thirty five concerts that come to the 1:21:32.840 --> 1:21:34.840 venue a year. You're going to you're going to get 1:21:34.920 --> 1:21:40.360 first assets those tickets. So that's generally every arena is 1:21:40.400 --> 1:21:45.839 going to have some level of a club box system. 1:21:46.520 --> 1:21:50.280 One thousand and two, three thousand tickets that are within 1:21:50.439 --> 1:21:54.599 that venue system sold to their current client base, which 1:21:55.040 --> 1:21:56.559 is a lot of reasons why people say, word its 1:21:56.600 --> 1:22:02.080 scalpers get tickets. That's another big leaky bucket. But that's 1:22:02.160 --> 1:22:04.519 so that's why when you sell, when you put this 1:22:05.400 --> 1:22:10.200 inventory on sale, it's not the fourteen thousand seats in 1:22:10.240 --> 1:22:13.120 that venue and then there's club seats and then there's boxes. 1:22:14.400 --> 1:22:17.320 It's not everything in that venue is going for sale. 1:22:17.360 --> 1:22:19.960 Some of it has already been pre sold or held 1:22:20.000 --> 1:22:21.880 back for customer basis. 1:22:22.520 --> 1:22:25.599 Let's talk about the secondary market. You reference that. Yes, 1:22:25.680 --> 1:22:28.280 they do get it from the people who receives and 1:22:28.439 --> 1:22:34.200 ticket holders, To what degree are the bots a problem 1:22:34.479 --> 1:22:38.400 on the on sale and to what degree can it 1:22:38.479 --> 1:22:40.760 be addressed or possibly eradicated? 1:22:42.600 --> 1:22:45.960 Yeah, the bots are you know, it's an arms race. 1:22:46.040 --> 1:22:51.439 It's it's an impossible mission right now because again as 1:22:51.439 --> 1:22:55.240 an industry, you really only have ticket Master even trying 1:22:55.280 --> 1:22:58.320 to stop them. There's no one else, you know, Access 1:22:58.400 --> 1:23:01.240 isn't spending much money on it, and Seekik and stub 1:23:01.240 --> 1:23:07.400 bubber obviously that's with their businesses. So right now, when again, 1:23:07.439 --> 1:23:12.479 when you have that the famous tailor scrift moment, but 1:23:12.520 --> 1:23:14.479 when you have that level of you know, if you 1:23:14.520 --> 1:23:17.080 looked in the tailor script moment, there you go on 1:23:17.120 --> 1:23:20.400 the dark web right now, you can buy a whole 1:23:20.439 --> 1:23:23.280 bunch of software to try to hack the latest on sale. 1:23:24.360 --> 1:23:28.120 You know, it's a very organized and unorganized kind of 1:23:28.240 --> 1:23:32.080 underweb of five billion dollars that people are trying to access. 1:23:32.320 --> 1:23:35.800 So there's bots, there's tons of software on the dark 1:23:35.840 --> 1:23:38.240 web to how to break the code, what's the password? 1:23:38.720 --> 1:23:42.280 That's what happened on Taylor. So you have a lot 1:23:42.320 --> 1:23:46.960 of a lot of global parties trying to break and 1:23:47.040 --> 1:23:50.759 allocate that on sale to try to get those tickets 1:23:50.840 --> 1:23:54.439 and put them on a secondary platform. The Bought Act 1:23:54.439 --> 1:23:57.479 has never been enforced, which is our big complaint. As 1:23:57.560 --> 1:24:01.960 much as all everyone loved tweeting Taylor Swift and their 1:24:02.000 --> 1:24:04.760 tweet to get a lot of likes, none of them 1:24:04.800 --> 1:24:07.680 want to address the challenge, right. It's the challenge at 1:24:07.680 --> 1:24:09.320 the end of the day is you know, I use 1:24:09.360 --> 1:24:11.679 the example of when you see those videos of someone 1:24:11.720 --> 1:24:14.719 breaking in the protest store on Beverly Hills stealing the purses. 1:24:15.400 --> 1:24:17.960 You know, people go, oh, what's going on with the 1:24:17.960 --> 1:24:20.720 Beverly Hills police department. We got to staff up. They 1:24:20.760 --> 1:24:24.280 don't blame product. Well, what happened in Taylor Swift was 1:24:24.280 --> 1:24:26.960 the product story, right is they broke they tried to 1:24:26.960 --> 1:24:31.040 break the doors down. Really does we stopped them. Now, 1:24:31.040 --> 1:24:33.599 we had to slow the system down, but we kept 1:24:33.600 --> 1:24:36.559 them out and they didn't steal one bag. And we 1:24:36.600 --> 1:24:38.879 still ended up by the end of the day delivering 1:24:38.880 --> 1:24:42.800 two million tickets to Taylor Swift fans. And then you 1:24:42.800 --> 1:24:44.720 have the congressmen putting their hands up, going, oh my god, 1:24:44.720 --> 1:24:48.479 what's going on, And we're going, well, you're doing nothing 1:24:48.560 --> 1:24:52.320 to enforce the Bought Act. We had a bought attack, 1:24:52.800 --> 1:24:55.479 we had a cyber attack, we did our best to 1:24:55.520 --> 1:24:58.960 fight it off ourselves. We're the protest store, so we're 1:24:59.000 --> 1:25:02.360 now start to enforce the bought police, or you have 1:25:02.400 --> 1:25:04.479 to enforce the plice. So you know, we kind of 1:25:04.479 --> 1:25:06.200 get in that circle. Right. If you're gonna let if 1:25:06.240 --> 1:25:08.599 you're gonna let Second run wild like we are today, 1:25:09.040 --> 1:25:11.439 then you've got to just forget about even blaming anybody 1:25:11.479 --> 1:25:13.840 for what happens on on sales. It's a free for all. 1:25:14.479 --> 1:25:16.360 Or you have to then decide are we going to 1:25:16.439 --> 1:25:19.360 legislate anything, Are we going to try to limit bots? 1:25:19.400 --> 1:25:22.240 Are we going to try to limit that on sale mess? 1:25:22.760 --> 1:25:24.800 And right now we have it, so right now the 1:25:24.840 --> 1:25:26.560 on sale is going to be a mess. On a 1:25:26.640 --> 1:25:32.000 high profitable show, the bots will end up getting seats 1:25:33.040 --> 1:25:34.840 and they screw up the system and they try to 1:25:34.880 --> 1:25:37.320 break the system for the hours. It's all part of that. 1:25:37.840 --> 1:25:40.839 All their job is is to figure out give a mess, 1:25:41.400 --> 1:25:44.000 scare you that they're all sold out fast, right. They 1:25:44.000 --> 1:25:46.880 try to hold tickets forever. That's the big game they 1:25:46.920 --> 1:25:48.960 play is get on the map and hold all the 1:25:49.000 --> 1:25:51.559 dots so you only see a few dots for sale, 1:25:51.560 --> 1:25:53.280 and you'll buy them, or you'll go to stubbub and 1:25:53.280 --> 1:25:56.120 buy them. Then they release the dots later and that's 1:25:56.160 --> 1:25:57.599 why you end up seeing at the end of the day, 1:25:57.600 --> 1:26:00.320 why is there more tickets available? Because the they got 1:26:00.320 --> 1:26:03.000 in and held tickets, you got scared. You went to 1:26:03.280 --> 1:26:05.960 seat Geek bought tickets for two thousand dollars because you 1:26:05.960 --> 1:26:07.439 thought it was sold. When you come back to ticket 1:26:07.439 --> 1:26:10.240 Master and go, oh, there's tickets available, what happened. So 1:26:10.360 --> 1:26:16.439 it is a big challenge, it's a big mission. Again, 1:26:16.479 --> 1:26:19.439 we haven't been that vocal historically. We've we've stayed on 1:26:19.479 --> 1:26:21.479 the sidelines and tried to battle it. But now we're 1:26:22.000 --> 1:26:24.439 we're being pretty vocal on the Fair Act and we 1:26:24.560 --> 1:26:27.280 do think that you got to start there. And I 1:26:27.320 --> 1:26:29.920 think there's a bill coming up from NIVA and others, 1:26:29.960 --> 1:26:32.479 so I do think it's time we do. Let we 1:26:32.520 --> 1:26:36.679 do think about legislation around the secondary in some sense, 1:26:37.320 --> 1:26:40.000 as a start we went to all in ticketing and 1:26:40.040 --> 1:26:44.160 some legislation on secondary. The experience starts to get real, 1:26:44.240 --> 1:26:45.080 bit real different. 1:26:52.600 --> 1:26:55.759 Okay, just going back to the Taylor Swift on sale, 1:26:57.160 --> 1:27:01.840 the perception was every buddy's got an uh got a 1:27:01.880 --> 1:27:04.080 computer at this point, and everyone knows if there's an 1:27:04.120 --> 1:27:09.200 incredible demand. Even with Apple products, the system slows down. 1:27:09.920 --> 1:27:15.040 Are you saying you intentionally slowed the system down? In 1:27:15.200 --> 1:27:18.599 two you said you made it so the bots didn't 1:27:18.600 --> 1:27:21.479 get tickets. Is that really what happened with Taylor's with 1:27:21.640 --> 1:27:23.160 the bots really didn't get tickets? 1:27:23.400 --> 1:27:25.920 No, they didn't one hundred percent. Yeah, I mean you know, 1:27:26.080 --> 1:27:29.559 I'm you know again, some some percentage I'm sure slip 1:27:29.560 --> 1:27:32.280 in because bots can dress up as Taylor fans pretty 1:27:32.280 --> 1:27:37.559 good too, But generally on a verified fan percentage wise 1:27:37.640 --> 1:27:39.960 is we do a really good job of knowing the 1:27:39.960 --> 1:27:44.880 difference between a bot and a fan, and the result 1:27:44.920 --> 1:27:46.880 is you end up knowing instantly on what's on sale 1:27:46.920 --> 1:27:49.439 on the secondary is if it's successful, right, if there's 1:27:49.520 --> 1:27:54.360 less inventory on secondary, you absolutely cut out a lot 1:27:54.360 --> 1:27:56.920 of the bots. So no, that was a that that 1:27:57.080 --> 1:27:59.639 was about not letting the bots in. The bots didn't 1:27:59.680 --> 1:28:02.200 get in for the bad guy didn't get the tickets. 1:28:02.520 --> 1:28:05.760 But unfortunately it was a bad consumer experience for the 1:28:05.840 --> 1:28:09.719 day as the system needed to get needed to operate 1:28:09.760 --> 1:28:12.320 at a slow level to ultimately get those two million 1:28:12.320 --> 1:28:16.600 tickets out. The single biggest ticket day in history was 1:28:16.720 --> 1:28:21.400 nine hundred thousand tickets. So the mission that day and Tigamaster, 1:28:21.479 --> 1:28:23.760 we actually sold one million pink tickets that day too. 1:28:23.880 --> 1:28:25.479 So if you want to talk about the load that 1:28:25.479 --> 1:28:27.880 that was able to deliver by the end of the 1:28:28.000 --> 1:28:34.320 day was a huge, huge, deliverable although readily so the 1:28:34.360 --> 1:28:38.479 fans jumped on and we're not happy, but but no, 1:28:38.560 --> 1:28:40.320 we were proud at the end of the day that 1:28:40.400 --> 1:28:45.040 the tickets didn't get the purse, didn't get stolen. We 1:28:45.040 --> 1:28:47.559 were able to limit that and make sure that the 1:28:47.600 --> 1:28:50.599 tickets got to the hand of the verified fans' hands 1:28:50.600 --> 1:28:51.120 in the end. 1:28:52.880 --> 1:28:58.120 Okay, go back to Miiley Cyrus. She went on tour 1:28:58.200 --> 1:29:02.920 this about twelve to fifteen years ago. All the mothers complained, Hey, 1:29:02.960 --> 1:29:07.160 we can't get tickets. The next tour was totally paperless 1:29:07.320 --> 1:29:10.439 and didn't sell out instantly. If we go back to 1:29:10.520 --> 1:29:14.960 Taylor Swift, the last time she went on tour pre COVID, 1:29:15.439 --> 1:29:18.880 she did not go clean in every market. So we 1:29:18.960 --> 1:29:22.519 have all these competing interests that changed the perception of 1:29:22.600 --> 1:29:28.559 the fan as to availability. Hey, can we say that 1:29:29.000 --> 1:29:31.240 some acts want to put on a lot. I want 1:29:31.240 --> 1:29:36.000 to create this demand which will incentivize people to buy 1:29:36.040 --> 1:29:40.519 tickets and two. If another superstar came to you today 1:29:41.360 --> 1:29:46.880 and said, I have thirty stadium dates unless they Taylor 1:29:46.920 --> 1:29:49.920 Swift wanted them all on sale on one day. But 1:29:50.160 --> 1:29:54.320 as the ticketing company, if the act was opened to 1:29:54.560 --> 1:29:57.599 another take, would you say, let's not do it that way. 1:29:57.680 --> 1:30:02.000 Let's do it market by mar market or fifty one day, 1:30:02.360 --> 1:30:04.040 fifty the next week. 1:30:06.120 --> 1:30:10.760 Yeah. I think the lesson, obviously is we should we 1:30:10.760 --> 1:30:15.320 should spread the load. That's the given. But Bob, I 1:30:15.400 --> 1:30:17.200 want to just state something so we don't get it wrong. 1:30:17.280 --> 1:30:22.000 I am not against secondary, just to be clear where 1:30:22.000 --> 1:30:25.480 I stand, because you are right. Secondary is an incredible 1:30:25.479 --> 1:30:29.640 distribution platform right now. Meaning you're right. They buy a 1:30:29.680 --> 1:30:32.160 lot of tickets and they help out a lot of 1:30:32.200 --> 1:30:35.479 on sales, and in the sports business, it's it's very 1:30:35.560 --> 1:30:37.960 valuable because that's how a lot of people sell their 1:30:38.000 --> 1:30:41.160 eighty games. I'm not against I'm not saying that we 1:30:41.200 --> 1:30:45.280 should outlaw secondary, although that would be the simplest way 1:30:45.320 --> 1:30:47.440 to fix it, all right, as Gar said on stage, 1:30:47.160 --> 1:30:50.759 just outlaw but that's not going to happen in America. 1:30:50.920 --> 1:30:54.680 I'm fine on the idea that tickets should be exchanged. 1:30:57.080 --> 1:31:00.200 I'm first though, big believer that the artists should have 1:31:00.240 --> 1:31:03.760 the ability to decide. And I know that sounds not 1:31:03.800 --> 1:31:06.120 as simple as it is. But right now, as you said, 1:31:06.200 --> 1:31:09.639 some artists don't care, some do. Right now, I can't 1:31:09.720 --> 1:31:13.200 you know, as you know that secondary lobbyists are doing 1:31:13.160 --> 1:31:16.799 any great job state by state, dressed up in fancy 1:31:16.800 --> 1:31:21.439 bills around service fees, to say, don't let transferability get changed, 1:31:21.920 --> 1:31:25.200 right that's the core challenge right now, And they've convinced 1:31:25.240 --> 1:31:27.679 a lot of people that we must be the bad 1:31:27.720 --> 1:31:30.240 guy because we want to limit transferability and we only 1:31:30.240 --> 1:31:32.880 want the ticket a ticket master and resold a ticket master. 1:31:33.240 --> 1:31:36.640 That's not the agenda at all. I believe that the 1:31:36.680 --> 1:31:39.720 PDF that used to be on the airline and used 1:31:39.720 --> 1:31:43.719 to be you know, in the hotel went digital, and 1:31:43.880 --> 1:31:45.880 just like you used to be able to walk up 1:31:45.920 --> 1:31:47.920 on the airline, the digital ticket, when it went to 1:31:47.960 --> 1:31:50.200 PDF went to digital, means you can do things with 1:31:50.240 --> 1:31:53.040 it now, you can have some level of control. And 1:31:53.080 --> 1:31:55.360 I do believe when Pearl jam or an artist says, 1:31:55.520 --> 1:31:57.959 you know what, I don't want my secondary ticket resold 1:31:58.479 --> 1:32:01.960 at a premium, execute that or I don't care, you 1:32:01.960 --> 1:32:03.639 know what, I want it sold. I want I only 1:32:03.640 --> 1:32:07.519 want a twenty five percent uplift on the secondary. I'm 1:32:07.520 --> 1:32:09.120 fine if people make money, but I don't want to 1:32:09.160 --> 1:32:11.720 make in three hundred percent. We could deliver that as 1:32:11.760 --> 1:32:15.639 an industry, not just Ticketmaster and or I don't care, 1:32:16.120 --> 1:32:18.680 exchange it wherever you want free for all, great, then 1:32:18.840 --> 1:32:22.200 then let the market deliver it. But right now, you 1:32:22.760 --> 1:32:26.400 if we don't stop some of this legislation, the legislation's 1:32:26.520 --> 1:32:29.080 moving towards, you know, this idea that you can never 1:32:29.200 --> 1:32:33.240 have a non transferable ticket rule. And I've never said 1:32:33.240 --> 1:32:35.479 that I want this to happen because I only want 1:32:35.520 --> 1:32:38.559 the ticket resold. Ticket Master should I'm fine if it's 1:32:38.600 --> 1:32:41.360 resold everywhere. You know. The NFL, I think, is the 1:32:41.439 --> 1:32:45.720 great example on what we delivered on exchange. So the 1:32:45.880 --> 1:32:49.760 NFL used to have a system where we would pay 1:32:49.800 --> 1:32:54.080 the NFL to be the secondary preferred partner, but it 1:32:54.160 --> 1:32:58.800 meant nothing because ticket Master would have secondary tickets, but 1:32:58.880 --> 1:33:01.559 so would everyone else. So I was paying the NFL 1:33:01.560 --> 1:33:03.400 a lot of money, but you could go get all 1:33:03.400 --> 1:33:06.880 your same tickets at subub seat geek. They just didn't 1:33:06.920 --> 1:33:09.000 have the NFL logo or they didn't have a few things. 1:33:09.640 --> 1:33:12.760 So NFL smartly sat with us five years ago and 1:33:12.800 --> 1:33:17.080 said how do we capture it all so it's more organized, 1:33:17.560 --> 1:33:20.080 and we put a system forward that said, listen, we 1:33:20.120 --> 1:33:23.559 should deliver an exchange for you. We should make sure 1:33:23.600 --> 1:33:26.959 that c g Can, Stubbub and others have to abide 1:33:27.040 --> 1:33:32.000 by the exchange rules and then that way they're authorized 1:33:32.280 --> 1:33:34.680 and everyone should be able to sell the tickets. But 1:33:34.720 --> 1:33:37.479 they're all authorized, they're playing by the NFL rules, and 1:33:37.560 --> 1:33:40.680 the NFL can take a percentage of those fees. So 1:33:40.720 --> 1:33:44.280 the NFL exchange today is an exchange where if you 1:33:44.600 --> 1:33:47.960 seek Geek, StubHub have been authorized, they pay the NFL 1:33:49.200 --> 1:33:52.760 an advance versus a percentage. And all of these platforms 1:33:52.840 --> 1:33:56.759 are authorized NFL resellers now like an authorized Rolex reseller, 1:33:57.200 --> 1:33:59.120 but it means they have to play by the rules. 1:33:59.120 --> 1:34:01.760 They can't spec some they can't put Super Bowl on 1:34:01.840 --> 1:34:04.720 sale before it's announced. Play let's all play by the 1:34:04.720 --> 1:34:07.360 same rules, so the NFL fan and knows what they're doing. 1:34:07.680 --> 1:34:11.560 Now there's a couple exchanges like Vivid that don't participate 1:34:12.120 --> 1:34:14.080 in the program and still do it on their own. 1:34:14.120 --> 1:34:17.800 But it's a big move forward where you had multiple 1:34:17.840 --> 1:34:21.799 platforms playing by the same rule addressed by the NFL. 1:34:22.360 --> 1:34:24.120 That's the model I think we should get to, right 1:34:24.200 --> 1:34:28.599 where Access Seak, Geek, stub Hub, Live Nation, Ticketmaster. You know, 1:34:29.479 --> 1:34:31.720 if the artist says this is the rule, I want 1:34:31.720 --> 1:34:34.800 to play a twenty five percent premium on my ticket, 1:34:34.800 --> 1:34:38.200 then we should all all execute that on our digital 1:34:38.200 --> 1:34:41.000 ticket an honor written be authorized to do it. Or 1:34:41.040 --> 1:34:44.760 if there's no exchange, like seat geek did with with 1:34:45.560 --> 1:34:48.680 the cure, great, then let's all none of us got 1:34:48.720 --> 1:34:51.240 to turn on the exchange. None of us made money 1:34:51.240 --> 1:34:53.519 on the secondary business. But that's what the artist wanted. 1:34:53.560 --> 1:34:57.080 We played that way other times artists won't be that 1:34:57.439 --> 1:35:00.000 obsessed with it. Let the market exchange, let the market 1:35:00.080 --> 1:35:03.840 run free. Great. So I'm not against secondary I don't. 1:35:03.880 --> 1:35:06.559 I think we're an American market free enterprise. We're never 1:35:06.600 --> 1:35:08.560 going to get to a place where you're going to 1:35:08.600 --> 1:35:10.880 ban it. I don't want to pretend we have fake 1:35:11.000 --> 1:35:14.799 rules around bots and it doesn't work. I'd love spec selling. 1:35:14.880 --> 1:35:17.800 I would love all these deceptive websites and all of 1:35:17.840 --> 1:35:21.400 these things to go away and be cleaned up. You 1:35:21.400 --> 1:35:25.200 could get that done by FTC tomorrow. And I do 1:35:25.320 --> 1:35:27.640 I do believe that content should have the right on 1:35:27.720 --> 1:35:30.160 the ticket. Just like the sports teams get to do 1:35:30.200 --> 1:35:34.280 whatever they want. They define the rules of the game 1:35:34.800 --> 1:35:37.600 for their sports league. I think the artists should be 1:35:37.640 --> 1:35:39.840 able to say this tour, I want it my way, 1:35:40.040 --> 1:35:41.800 this way. If I'm Zach Bryan, I want to do 1:35:41.840 --> 1:35:44.320 it this way, or I don't care, or I do care, 1:35:45.479 --> 1:35:47.840 but right now so I'm a big fan of that. 1:35:47.880 --> 1:35:52.000 I think content and the artists should control and put 1:35:52.000 --> 1:35:54.920 the rules. We have the technology as an industry in 1:35:55.000 --> 1:35:59.200 digital now to be able to do that. So I 1:35:59.280 --> 1:36:02.320 want to state that I'm not an anti secondary I may. 1:36:03.880 --> 1:36:06.200 Want to. I want to weigh in here too, because 1:36:07.840 --> 1:36:11.800 the public does not have clean hands. They want to resell, 1:36:12.280 --> 1:36:16.080 and unfortunately they get caught up in what the secondary 1:36:16.200 --> 1:36:21.200 legislation is uh saying. The other thing is if you 1:36:21.439 --> 1:36:24.920 make it too tight, the public isn't happy. 1:36:25.520 --> 1:36:26.040 You're right. 1:36:26.280 --> 1:36:29.479 The public wants to know if I decide that I 1:36:29.560 --> 1:36:31.840 want to go to the show tomorrow and there's no 1:36:31.960 --> 1:36:34.400 limit to what I I will pay, there will be 1:36:34.439 --> 1:36:35.400 a ticket for me. 1:36:37.280 --> 1:36:40.720 It's it's you're dead right. It's the challenge of you know, 1:36:40.960 --> 1:36:44.360 the voices on Twitter versus the reality of the marketplace. Right, 1:36:44.760 --> 1:36:47.400 and as you think you've written about me. I had 1:36:47.400 --> 1:36:51.160 a fan rate me last week about some Taylor Swift 1:36:51.240 --> 1:36:54.439 show and I'm like, I went onlines to this thoughts. 1:36:54.520 --> 1:36:57.240 Tickets available at a decent price. You can still go 1:36:57.280 --> 1:37:01.120 to see Taylor. So you're right, want it their way 1:37:01.400 --> 1:37:03.360 when they want it. They've been accustomed to that on 1:37:03.840 --> 1:37:08.240 every other platform and marketplace today, So you're right. It 1:37:08.320 --> 1:37:10.519 is a It is a double edged sword right now 1:37:10.920 --> 1:37:14.880 on how do you how do you try to deliver 1:37:15.000 --> 1:37:20.720 some level of secondary legislation or rules that would simplify 1:37:20.800 --> 1:37:23.960 the system for the on sale really all you're trying 1:37:23.960 --> 1:37:26.960 to solve. But you're right, the free enterprise of the 1:37:26.960 --> 1:37:30.360 American market says, I want to do whatever I own 1:37:30.400 --> 1:37:31.800 that ticket, and I want to do whatever the hell 1:37:31.840 --> 1:37:34.960 I want with it. The challenge we have, though, Bob, 1:37:35.080 --> 1:37:38.559 is it's not you know, I'm not worried about Billy 1:37:39.680 --> 1:37:42.200 that you know, the lobbyists are so great at doing. 1:37:42.240 --> 1:37:44.880 You know, Billy in Texas just he's going, he's paying 1:37:44.920 --> 1:37:47.400 for school by selling a couple of tickets. We're not 1:37:47.439 --> 1:37:50.360 worried about him. That's not the problem being created at 1:37:50.360 --> 1:37:54.840 ten am. It's the bots at ten am. That is 1:37:54.880 --> 1:37:57.400 the challenge right now. So if we can address that 1:37:57.600 --> 1:38:01.600 part at least, then the ca acsual secondary seller or 1:38:01.600 --> 1:38:04.160 the seller, we're less worried about him. But we have 1:38:04.240 --> 1:38:08.559 to address the first part on the ten AM free 1:38:08.600 --> 1:38:12.800 for all right now is not being done by you know, 1:38:13.680 --> 1:38:15.599 Billy who wants to sell a couple of tickets. It 1:38:15.640 --> 1:38:17.240 is industrialized. 1:38:18.400 --> 1:38:21.639 Your CEO of the company, how much of your time 1:38:21.800 --> 1:38:27.519 is dedicated to managing your stock price? And your stock 1:38:27.600 --> 1:38:30.519 price now is a little depressed from where it was. 1:38:31.080 --> 1:38:35.360 To what degree do you pay attention to that? Address that? 1:38:37.360 --> 1:38:38.840 Yeah, he listen. I don't want to sound like that 1:38:38.880 --> 1:38:40.519 guy that says I don't ever look at it. Of 1:38:40.520 --> 1:38:45.320 course I do. I've lived long enough now from when 1:38:45.360 --> 1:38:49.360 we went public, I've been two dollars, I've been twenty eight, 1:38:49.400 --> 1:38:53.640 been one hundred. I do say that. You know what 1:38:53.640 --> 1:38:55.880 what I spend most of my time on is ultimately 1:38:56.000 --> 1:38:59.400 what matters in any company, whether it's my stock or 1:39:00.040 --> 1:39:03.400 AG's private company or your own, is the business growing. 1:39:04.400 --> 1:39:07.679 How's the fundamentals of the business, Because the stock price 1:39:07.720 --> 1:39:11.680 will ultimately follow performance, and you're always going to have 1:39:11.840 --> 1:39:13.599 when you're as big as we are, and been doing 1:39:13.600 --> 1:39:15.720 it this long, there's going to be moments of you know, 1:39:15.760 --> 1:39:18.200 we'll have a little DJ overhang for a few months 1:39:18.320 --> 1:39:21.800 or this year. While they will the investors debate what 1:39:21.840 --> 1:39:24.559 that means or doesn't mean. All I really care though, 1:39:25.080 --> 1:39:29.200 I obsess around the performance. That part is what really matters. 1:39:29.280 --> 1:39:32.040 You don't want to be having a depressed stock and 1:39:32.960 --> 1:39:37.160 having a business that isn't growing and healthy and has 1:39:37.200 --> 1:39:41.759 a great future ahead of it. So I'm I'm blown 1:39:41.800 --> 1:39:44.040 away at the resilience of this business, Bob. Coming out 1:39:44.040 --> 1:39:47.559 of COVID, I mean, I'm I get that, you know, 1:39:47.600 --> 1:39:49.839 we had a little bit of a kent up demand, 1:39:51.760 --> 1:39:55.959 but seeing the continuation of it on a global basis, 1:39:57.880 --> 1:40:01.480 it's just just mind blowing. Whether that's truly that experience 1:40:01.560 --> 1:40:07.439 economy on steroids, your point of content being free everywhere 1:40:07.520 --> 1:40:12.880 and driving all these customers, globalization of it overnight where 1:40:13.080 --> 1:40:16.280 you know, we're doing ten sold out river stadiums for 1:40:16.400 --> 1:40:20.519 Coldplay right now. By middle of the road festivals are 1:40:20.600 --> 1:40:23.439 selling out bands more than ever want to have a 1:40:24.000 --> 1:40:27.880 have a great experience. So that's that's the part that 1:40:28.479 --> 1:40:31.720 your stock is. You know, you're kind of in your 1:40:31.800 --> 1:40:35.360 mind debate the stock price is only relevant if you 1:40:35.600 --> 1:40:38.040 if you if you don't think your business is going 1:40:38.080 --> 1:40:41.640 to deliver, then that's a those those those kind of 1:40:41.640 --> 1:40:44.320 companies are in trouble. This is a business where this 1:40:44.400 --> 1:40:46.479 is an industry forget my own agenda, this is an 1:40:46.479 --> 1:40:48.360 indituative for the next five to ten years is going 1:40:48.439 --> 1:40:51.960 to have an incredible boom. Yes, we're going to live 1:40:52.000 --> 1:40:54.360 with some pr realities at the ticket price, and the 1:40:54.439 --> 1:40:56.639 artists are going to start charging a bit more and 1:40:56.800 --> 1:40:59.880 right sizing their product and and and and and taking 1:41:00.000 --> 1:41:02.439 some of that secondary and there'll be some news around that. 1:41:02.600 --> 1:41:05.479 But this is an industry that is I think still 1:41:05.640 --> 1:41:10.200 massively underpriced, still doesn't do a great job experientially. So 1:41:10.360 --> 1:41:13.000 lots of great venues are going to be built, better venues, 1:41:13.080 --> 1:41:19.120 better experiences, higher end premium experiences. I think there's a 1:41:19.160 --> 1:41:22.479 lot of upsiding upsize in this industry. When I look 1:41:22.479 --> 1:41:26.000 at the sports industry and almost how well they've done. 1:41:26.000 --> 1:41:29.479 Look at the Masters four hundred and ninety dollars per 1:41:29.520 --> 1:41:33.519 head spent that weekend sports has really done a much 1:41:33.520 --> 1:41:35.519 better job at you know, the high end. It's not 1:41:35.760 --> 1:41:37.519 and I mean again it doesn't mean the rich people 1:41:37.560 --> 1:41:39.799 experience the just if I want to go to the Masters, 1:41:39.840 --> 1:41:41.000 or I want to go to the super Bowl, I 1:41:41.000 --> 1:41:43.080 want to go to the NBA All Star Game, or 1:41:43.520 --> 1:41:46.360 or just the new Arena for the end for the 1:41:46.439 --> 1:41:49.160 Chargers game. That's a beautiful arena with a lot of 1:41:49.200 --> 1:41:53.800 great clubs and VIP rooms. We've been you know, I 1:41:53.800 --> 1:41:56.400 think it's an industry. We've been playing backwards, behind on 1:41:56.439 --> 1:41:58.280 the ball and all that. So I think as an industry, 1:41:58.320 --> 1:42:01.639 you're going to see better venues built, better new products 1:42:01.720 --> 1:42:06.880 being built around experiential stuff, more globalization more than ever, 1:42:08.520 --> 1:42:11.760 and more of these great artists that you know, bad 1:42:11.800 --> 1:42:15.960 money and international where it didn't it didn't matter before international. 1:42:16.400 --> 1:42:19.960 I've been in forty countries and for most years there 1:42:20.000 --> 1:42:22.200 was always a tragically hip in that market, but it 1:42:22.240 --> 1:42:25.679 didn't matter. They weren't really going to break. What mattered 1:42:25.760 --> 1:42:28.400 was Springsteen coming to the market, and you just been 1:42:28.400 --> 1:42:32.040 able to see my local markets now where that's that 1:42:32.120 --> 1:42:35.240 tragically hip does matter now because they get a TikTok 1:42:35.320 --> 1:42:38.920 hit or they get some exposure and everyone knows who 1:42:38.920 --> 1:42:41.599 they are now they're not they're not limited by that 1:42:41.720 --> 1:42:45.320 kind of domestic media agenda. So I think you got 1:42:45.360 --> 1:42:48.759 a huge supply of artists that are going to surprise 1:42:48.840 --> 1:42:53.240 us from all over the world. So stock price will 1:42:53.280 --> 1:42:57.040 will ultimately follow the performance of our company. And I 1:42:57.040 --> 1:42:59.000 think this is an industry worth betting on. 1:42:59.520 --> 1:43:03.560 Okay, you we talk generally about the industry, but specifically 1:43:03.680 --> 1:43:07.000 where are the growth opportunities for Live Nation and Ticketmaster. 1:43:09.120 --> 1:43:10.640 I've said it for a while, you know, it's a 1:43:11.000 --> 1:43:13.679 global is our biggest kind of you know, I've always 1:43:13.720 --> 1:43:16.640 been obsessed with outside of the American growth. We've got 1:43:16.680 --> 1:43:20.519 a great US business. There's great opportunities to still do things, 1:43:21.920 --> 1:43:24.320 but just grow. You know, this business is Latin America 1:43:24.360 --> 1:43:28.120 has just been a huge new growth area. Obviously, we 1:43:28.200 --> 1:43:33.040 bought Osessa in Covid. That was the big promoter we've 1:43:34.520 --> 1:43:36.479 We've obviously can have a bunch of businesses in Brazil. 1:43:36.720 --> 1:43:39.080 We just launched a new festival this week in Brazil 1:43:39.200 --> 1:43:43.120 called the Town from our Rock and Real Company. So 1:43:43.160 --> 1:43:46.360 one hundred and thirty thousand tickets on its opening day, 1:43:46.520 --> 1:43:49.800 brand new festival Rock and Rio. So we like international. 1:43:49.840 --> 1:43:52.200 I think you're going to see a lot of a 1:43:52.200 --> 1:43:56.080 lot of expansion in South America Asia. We continue to 1:43:56.080 --> 1:44:00.280 expand in so globalization there are tons of markets, Bob, 1:44:00.320 --> 1:44:04.920 where there's crappy arenas, there's maybe a festival, there's an 1:44:04.960 --> 1:44:11.439 under probably a crappy ticketing system, maybe no sponsors, you know, 1:44:11.520 --> 1:44:14.400 so kind of professionalize these businesses when you roll in. 1:44:14.960 --> 1:44:17.080 You launch Live Nation Brazil and we just launched our 1:44:17.080 --> 1:44:21.760 Ticketmaster Brazil. We upgraded the festival team there. We're going 1:44:21.800 --> 1:44:24.919 to build an arena there and a club there. We launched. 1:44:25.080 --> 1:44:28.800 We brought a lot of palooza to those markets. So 1:44:28.840 --> 1:44:33.559 we look ran Lollapaluza to India, launching them some new 1:44:33.560 --> 1:44:37.040 businesses in Cape Town and Africa. So all about international 1:44:37.280 --> 1:44:41.000 tons of great growth opportunity. Uh. Number two is we've really, 1:44:41.360 --> 1:44:44.720 through COVID, really put a front foot forward on our 1:44:44.800 --> 1:44:49.280 venue development. And it's something we had not historically been 1:44:49.320 --> 1:44:52.439 as aggressive in on the higher end. We'd been more 1:44:52.439 --> 1:44:56.960 a club theater amphitheater business. And then we stuck our 1:44:57.000 --> 1:45:00.559 toe out in Austin with OVG and and that building 1:45:00.600 --> 1:45:04.000 in Austin, that arena. It's been a home run success. 1:45:04.720 --> 1:45:08.759 So we've been looking at markets where outside of mostly 1:45:08.760 --> 1:45:11.400 outside of America, where you don't have that NBA, NHL 1:45:11.520 --> 1:45:15.639 beautiful arena, we have a. We have an arena now 1:45:15.640 --> 1:45:20.800 in Dublin, one in Copenhagen, Portugal. I've got a few 1:45:20.800 --> 1:45:23.719 others in the pipe with OBG and Latin America and Asia. 1:45:23.840 --> 1:45:27.320 So I think venue development is a is a big opportunity. 1:45:28.120 --> 1:45:30.320 Going back to our math earlier, Bob, you know, it's 1:45:30.320 --> 1:45:33.639 a vertical business, right, So the more the more vertical 1:45:33.720 --> 1:45:37.800 you are with the content and the food and the 1:45:37.840 --> 1:45:41.639 beverage and the peanuts, the better your businesses. So you'll 1:45:41.640 --> 1:45:46.120 see us continually like a Netflix analogy, I guess is 1:45:46.479 --> 1:45:48.080 you want to rent a lot of shows and put 1:45:48.120 --> 1:45:49.439 them on other venues, but you got to have a 1:45:49.479 --> 1:45:52.160 lot of your home grown brood shows in your own 1:45:52.240 --> 1:45:55.559 venues and festivals where they're higher margin. So we'll keep 1:45:55.680 --> 1:46:01.400 expanding our global venue platform, so in ant national global expansion. 1:46:03.479 --> 1:46:05.320 And you know, every time you put a new venue, 1:46:05.680 --> 1:46:08.599 you open up a bigger sponsorship opportunity and a ticketing 1:46:08.640 --> 1:46:11.760 opportunity in those markets. So I think you'll see for 1:46:11.800 --> 1:46:15.559 the next five years. We told the market, jeez, we 1:46:15.560 --> 1:46:18.639 did about fifty million fans four or five years ago. 1:46:19.200 --> 1:46:21.320 We're over one hundred and twenty five million, meaning they 1:46:21.360 --> 1:46:24.640 went to a live nation show in twenty two, like 1:46:24.760 --> 1:46:27.360 we've now told them, we're we can see one fifty 1:46:27.400 --> 1:46:31.320 to one seventy five over the next five years of 1:46:31.479 --> 1:46:33.479 fans going to our show. So we think the pie 1:46:33.479 --> 1:46:37.360 gets bigger globally, our market share just growing. If the 1:46:37.479 --> 1:46:41.040 pie gets bigger, we get bigger and before we have 1:46:41.080 --> 1:46:43.920 to even take more market share in entering new markets 1:46:43.920 --> 1:46:46.440 that we're not in. So we think this is a 1:46:46.479 --> 1:46:50.960 global business that will grow, and we'll obviously grow as 1:46:51.040 --> 1:46:51.840 the tide goes up. 1:46:53.000 --> 1:46:55.920 Now North America is pretty myopic. They don't really know 1:46:55.960 --> 1:46:59.320 what's going on in these other countries. What is the 1:46:59.400 --> 1:47:03.360 market and who are the competitors of live Nation around 1:47:03.400 --> 1:47:03.799 the world. 1:47:05.439 --> 1:47:08.960 Well, you have CTS in Germany, they're done a good 1:47:09.040 --> 1:47:12.960 job there, and then most of the markets that you're 1:47:12.960 --> 1:47:15.519 going to go to are going to have let's call 1:47:15.560 --> 1:47:17.800 it the Golden voices, right, they're going to have a 1:47:17.920 --> 1:47:21.240 local and grain promoter. I mean, Japan is a big market, 1:47:21.280 --> 1:47:24.200 big market, second largest market in the world, and we 1:47:24.280 --> 1:47:27.040 have no market share. They're really small and there's four 1:47:27.280 --> 1:47:31.559 historic promoters there that have owned the market. So you've 1:47:31.560 --> 1:47:32.840 got to figure out how to be in business. Is 1:47:32.880 --> 1:47:35.799 one of those four we've launched a live nation in Japan. 1:47:35.880 --> 1:47:39.679 We're bringing artists there. But generally in a market place 1:47:39.760 --> 1:47:45.439 that matters, there's an established Merrick Liberberg, there's a promoter 1:47:45.520 --> 1:47:50.280 that probably owns the market market and has two other competitors, 1:47:50.320 --> 1:47:54.040 so still a local business where they'd probably be a 1:47:54.080 --> 1:47:58.840 festival and a promoter in those markets with their good 1:47:59.040 --> 1:48:02.360 you know, good scale within their current market. Australia is 1:48:02.360 --> 1:48:04.599 the same as you know, three or four old time 1:48:04.640 --> 1:48:07.879 promoters own the market there. We bought one of them, Copple, 1:48:09.600 --> 1:48:11.479 But so you tend to have to go into those 1:48:11.479 --> 1:48:15.400 markets there's probably one or two historic promoters that own 1:48:15.479 --> 1:48:18.160 the market. We tend to try to partner with one 1:48:18.160 --> 1:48:22.040 of them and then help them supercharge their business by 1:48:22.040 --> 1:48:25.599 bringing tours and sponsorship and capital. 1:48:26.760 --> 1:48:29.439 So what's a typical day in the life of Michael Rupino? 1:48:30.880 --> 1:48:38.320 Jeez, stressful now thanks to the check my Twitter feed 1:48:38.360 --> 1:48:40.479 and they see who's see who's mad at me that day? 1:48:42.240 --> 1:48:45.759 But you know, I think it's it's I think listen, let's. 1:48:45.600 --> 1:48:48.720 Slow down there. You're a CEO. How much time do 1:48:48.760 --> 1:48:54.360 you spend on Twitter? And what's your feeling about musk 1:48:54.479 --> 1:48:56.000 running it and where it's going. 1:48:59.000 --> 1:49:02.519 Well, that's a loaded one in Twitter. You know, it's 1:49:02.520 --> 1:49:05.680 an addiction you hate, right because you know, you know, 1:49:05.760 --> 1:49:07.360 you know, they don't go on there and say thank 1:49:07.720 --> 1:49:11.840 so thankful, I got great tickets today. So it's it's 1:49:11.960 --> 1:49:14.320 only the pissed off that are going to go hit 1:49:14.400 --> 1:49:17.840 you up. But I do think it, you know, it 1:49:17.920 --> 1:49:20.720 is a you know, as Kara Swisher and Prophergy who 1:49:20.760 --> 1:49:23.519 we both like talk about, you know, it's still a 1:49:24.120 --> 1:49:26.280 damn good lightning rod to figure out what's going on 1:49:26.280 --> 1:49:27.920 in the world, right. I mean, you still go to 1:49:27.920 --> 1:49:29.960 that I go to that trending Explore page and just 1:49:30.040 --> 1:49:34.240 quickly go what's going on? And I still think it 1:49:34.320 --> 1:49:37.479 is an incredible lightning rod and a quick way to 1:49:37.520 --> 1:49:40.920 figure out whatever the drama of the day is going 1:49:40.960 --> 1:49:45.280 on in the world. So I think I think he's 1:49:45.800 --> 1:49:48.919 you know, I think he's a you know, obviously a genius. 1:49:48.960 --> 1:49:52.639 But I can't imagine why he wanted this this mission. 1:49:52.680 --> 1:49:55.000 This is a this is not a fruitful mission to 1:49:54.800 --> 1:49:59.560 come back to. But I think so, you know, I 1:49:59.840 --> 1:50:03.080 was my job, I would say, you're the reality is 1:50:03.120 --> 1:50:07.040 the one thing that has changed is in the world 1:50:07.040 --> 1:50:10.080 it's much more complex to run a comp business today. 1:50:10.120 --> 1:50:12.360 I mean there's a lot of voices right every day, 1:50:12.600 --> 1:50:14.240 So I think that's a new part of the business. 1:50:14.280 --> 1:50:16.400 You have to figure you have to spend time on it. 1:50:16.560 --> 1:50:19.559 You didn't before. You know, mostly it's going to spend 1:50:19.560 --> 1:50:22.440 your time on your strategy and your business and your divisions. 1:50:22.160 --> 1:50:25.200 And we're we've got a credible global team and that's 1:50:25.200 --> 1:50:28.200 where I spend most of my day dealing with my 1:50:28.320 --> 1:50:31.719 team's internal and figuring out what talent we're buying and 1:50:31.760 --> 1:50:36.280 what models and venues and strategy we're pursuing. And I 1:50:36.280 --> 1:50:38.639 think that just right there. 1:50:38.520 --> 1:50:40.920 To what degree do you delegate? To what degree do 1:50:40.960 --> 1:50:42.200 you get your hands dirty? 1:50:43.880 --> 1:50:46.479 Oh? My team, would you know? They know I'm still nuts. 1:50:46.479 --> 1:50:49.040 This is this is my baby. I'm I'm night and 1:50:49.120 --> 1:50:52.439 day here, I'm three feet and thirty thousand feet. I 1:50:52.800 --> 1:50:55.760 you know, I really look at running a business and 1:50:55.800 --> 1:50:58.719 I love it still. You know, one of the realities 1:50:58.760 --> 1:51:01.120 of being a CEO is you know, I always say 1:51:01.160 --> 1:51:02.840 there's kind of three things you can spend time on, 1:51:02.920 --> 1:51:06.519 your family, your business, and a lot of the external stuff. 1:51:07.280 --> 1:51:10.880 And the external stuff is gratifying for for for a 1:51:10.880 --> 1:51:16.120 lot of people, but you can't do all three something breaks. 1:51:16.680 --> 1:51:20.160 So I'm pretty obsessed with my three boys. It's making 1:51:20.160 --> 1:51:22.880 sure i'm a good dad and snowboarding and all the 1:51:22.960 --> 1:51:26.200 things you and I have talked about. And then two, 1:51:26.280 --> 1:51:29.360 as i'm internal focused, I really believe it's it's my 1:51:29.479 --> 1:51:33.240 team needs me. So I'm you know, every Tuesday at 1:51:33.320 --> 1:51:36.160 two and a half hours my concert team, and Wednesday 1:51:36.200 --> 1:51:40.040 is ticketmaster for two hours, sponsorship Thursday and venues and 1:51:40.200 --> 1:51:43.360 so I go. I'm I'm a I'm an active parent 1:51:43.880 --> 1:51:48.240 making sure all these divisions have access to me, help 1:51:48.280 --> 1:51:52.280 them cut through bureaucracy, make good decisions, deal with drama. 1:51:53.000 --> 1:51:55.679 So I'm pretty. I'm pretty. I go deep and stay 1:51:55.760 --> 1:51:59.320 stay very engaged. And as you know one of your 1:51:59.320 --> 1:52:02.479 famous lines about the bunker, I'm an introvert, so I 1:52:03.000 --> 1:52:05.519 don't spend a lot of time on the external. I 1:52:05.560 --> 1:52:08.880 figured that that all comes with good results and all that. 1:52:09.000 --> 1:52:11.479 You know, the good strategy and good results take care 1:52:11.520 --> 1:52:15.880 of the profile and the other things. But so that's 1:52:15.960 --> 1:52:16.599 kind of my day. 1:52:17.760 --> 1:52:20.400 Are you reachable twenty four to seven? Are you working 1:52:20.439 --> 1:52:21.400 twenty four seven? 1:52:22.240 --> 1:52:27.320 Oh yeah, yeah, no, that's the that's the curse for sure. Artists. 1:52:27.360 --> 1:52:30.520 Middle of the night, whoever it is, I'm always available, Yeah, absolutely, 1:52:30.800 --> 1:52:33.080 you know, it's listen to a gift where we run 1:52:33.120 --> 1:52:37.400 an incredible fun industry. I came from nothing and to 1:52:37.400 --> 1:52:38.840 be able to sit here and work with some of 1:52:38.840 --> 1:52:41.920 these great artists and have access and be part of 1:52:41.920 --> 1:52:46.839 their lives and help them deliver it's a pleasure. 1:52:48.280 --> 1:52:52.720 And why are Canadians so prominent and play above their 1:52:52.760 --> 1:52:54.479 weight in the concert industry? 1:52:55.240 --> 1:52:57.400 I don't, oh, you know, I do think this one, 1:52:57.560 --> 1:53:01.519 you know, is so when I was in Toronto, I 1:53:01.520 --> 1:53:04.160 thought Michael Cole and this idea of touring was an 1:53:04.240 --> 1:53:09.000 everywhere experience. I didn't really understand that that was such 1:53:09.040 --> 1:53:16.360 a uniqueness that you bought multiple So when when when 1:53:16.360 --> 1:53:18.400 Steve Herman I started a core audience, and you know, 1:53:18.439 --> 1:53:20.839 we bought tours across the country about the Rod Stewart 1:53:20.840 --> 1:53:24.400 tour for the country. You bought fourteen dates and it 1:53:24.560 --> 1:53:26.679 was you know, huge money for us at that time. 1:53:26.760 --> 1:53:30.040 I remember we remember we bought Janet Jackson from Jack 1:53:30.120 --> 1:53:32.200 remember Jack Usick? What was his name, the guy they 1:53:32.200 --> 1:53:33.719 went to jail jack? 1:53:34.000 --> 1:53:37.320 Oh yeah, Jack Utsick? Yeah yeah, oh man, he was 1:53:37.320 --> 1:53:37.920 a character. 1:53:38.120 --> 1:53:40.479 What a character? Hit off and we bought Janet Jackson 1:53:40.560 --> 1:53:44.120 lost four hundred thousand dollars and we went to Mel's 1:53:44.120 --> 1:53:45.760 diner that night, thought how are we going to pay 1:53:45.760 --> 1:53:48.320 for this? So when you buy tours it was exception. 1:53:49.360 --> 1:53:53.479 Only when I moved to America and then Europe, I 1:53:53.640 --> 1:53:57.160 really realized that the promoter, as rich as he was 1:53:57.200 --> 1:53:59.800 in his great he never left town like Don Law 1:54:00.040 --> 1:54:04.360 made a fortune living in Boston or and whoever they Larry, 1:54:04.439 --> 1:54:08.559 Larry Maggott and Philly Merrick Leberberg in Germany. So their market, 1:54:08.560 --> 1:54:10.639 they were just buying these you know, they were buying 1:54:10.640 --> 1:54:15.640 their market. So this idea that you know that I 1:54:15.720 --> 1:54:18.640 was that that Michael and Canada you were buying tours. 1:54:19.240 --> 1:54:22.040 It just was so foreign to these people because you 1:54:22.120 --> 1:54:23.840 just you never crossed the lines here as you know, 1:54:23.920 --> 1:54:26.639 it was that it was the mafia, right you had Philly, 1:54:26.680 --> 1:54:30.360 you didn't buy a New Jersey, and so I do 1:54:30.400 --> 1:54:33.600 think out of necessity in Canada because you didn't buy Toronto, 1:54:33.680 --> 1:54:36.520 you bought the world. Michael broke that model for me 1:54:36.640 --> 1:54:39.840 and Cole and Jerry Baird and Omar and myself and 1:54:39.880 --> 1:54:43.040 Steve Herman. We just that's the model we thought was right. 1:54:43.440 --> 1:54:46.240 So I think that did excel us because I think 1:54:46.240 --> 1:54:49.920 it when I was sitting in the room, I was 1:54:49.960 --> 1:54:52.640 able to talk about a bit more complexity than just 1:54:52.680 --> 1:54:56.760 one market. And and and in Canada, uh, you know, 1:54:56.800 --> 1:55:00.160 you had Quebec, you had some different geographies. You know, 1:55:00.200 --> 1:55:02.720 you had the second largest landmass in the world, so 1:55:02.760 --> 1:55:05.400 it wasn't like they were close markets. So you were 1:55:05.480 --> 1:55:09.920 mine a gena cross country business. And I think that 1:55:10.040 --> 1:55:13.200 was really really in the concert world that was so decentralized. 1:55:13.240 --> 1:55:16.960 Still that that and still is still there's still a 1:55:16.960 --> 1:55:19.600 fight for for for the local promoters, you know, versus 1:55:19.680 --> 1:55:24.000 the tour. Still that battle exists. So I think I 1:55:24.000 --> 1:55:27.400 think that kind of just unlocked why the concert business 1:55:27.480 --> 1:55:32.360 moved fast with with Michael and that CPI model. When 1:55:32.360 --> 1:55:34.800 he broke that model in the Stones and kind of 1:55:34.840 --> 1:55:37.360 pushed that forward, we all looked at it and thought 1:55:37.440 --> 1:55:40.400 that was business as usual. I didn't realize till I 1:55:40.520 --> 1:55:43.920 moved here how much they hated us and in terms 1:55:43.920 --> 1:55:46.120 of Michael and that and that model and in the 1:55:46.160 --> 1:55:50.120 Stones and that history of breaking that local model. So 1:55:50.320 --> 1:55:51.800 I guess that that was a bit of it. 1:55:52.440 --> 1:55:54.520 Needless to say, to be an artist, people have no 1:55:54.640 --> 1:56:00.080 idea what a backbreaking job it is. So to what 1:56:00.120 --> 1:56:04.839 degree are residencies like Harry styles And to what degree 1:56:05.480 --> 1:56:08.640 is Vegas where the act, where the audience comes to 1:56:08.680 --> 1:56:11.840 the act. Is that just going to be a stasis thing? 1:56:11.920 --> 1:56:12.760 Is that going to grow? 1:56:14.040 --> 1:56:16.280 Well? As a side note, you just hit on one 1:56:16.280 --> 1:56:20.560 thing on going back to pricing, you're dead right these artists. 1:56:20.600 --> 1:56:22.240 First of all, to go on the road right now 1:56:22.320 --> 1:56:26.760 is expensive, and to run a venue is expensive. But 1:56:26.800 --> 1:56:29.880 as you know, everything is increased dramatically. I mean every 1:56:30.120 --> 1:56:32.440 costs went up. If you look at the ticket price 1:56:32.480 --> 1:56:37.480 increases from twenty nineteen to today, know they've gone up 1:56:37.560 --> 1:56:43.640 nineteen percent, but so did labor, rentals, lighting, transportation, and gas. Right, 1:56:43.720 --> 1:56:49.080 so the costs are expensive for these artists. They're all in. 1:56:49.280 --> 1:56:52.040 They all want to have the greatest production arms race, 1:56:52.120 --> 1:56:57.720 so their production costs are intense. Now you can see 1:56:57.720 --> 1:57:01.000 Taylor's show or Beyonce's, but Dona is what they put 1:57:01.040 --> 1:57:05.440 on that stage. It's crazy expensive. So you are right 1:57:05.480 --> 1:57:08.960 there are I think Vegas has unlocked this idea that 1:57:09.040 --> 1:57:11.440 I could I could have a bit of a life 1:57:12.040 --> 1:57:15.720 and still deliver an incredible gross So I think Adele 1:57:16.120 --> 1:57:19.120 really really took it to the next level of being 1:57:19.160 --> 1:57:22.040 a modern artist that could have just done a stadium 1:57:22.080 --> 1:57:25.440 tour and decided to sit in Vegas for a while. 1:57:26.880 --> 1:57:29.520 So I think you're going to see, you know, the 1:57:29.520 --> 1:57:34.560 Harry style fifteen fifteen venue, fifteen amphitheaters or a fifteen arenas. 1:57:35.480 --> 1:57:38.760 But I would back up and say, every artist that 1:57:38.800 --> 1:57:42.520 you talk to knows that ultimately, when they get to 1:57:42.560 --> 1:57:46.000 the market, they make lifelong fans. You don't make a 1:57:46.000 --> 1:57:49.120 lifelong fan on Spotify. You make it when you show 1:57:49.200 --> 1:57:51.200 up at the city and they see you in stage 1:57:51.240 --> 1:57:54.320 and live. So every artist will still talk to me 1:57:54.400 --> 1:57:57.160 about they got to go play the world like they 1:57:57.200 --> 1:57:59.480 get that model now. I think once you've done it 1:57:59.480 --> 1:58:02.560 a few times, yes, then you can start saying do 1:58:02.640 --> 1:58:05.280 I need to go back to South America or can 1:58:05.320 --> 1:58:08.200 I I'm going to do thirty dates and I'm going 1:58:08.280 --> 1:58:10.680 to pick five cities. So I think you're going to 1:58:10.720 --> 1:58:13.560 see a bit of those models where the artists will say, 1:58:13.600 --> 1:58:18.400 you know what, I'll play five markets. I'll play London 1:58:18.440 --> 1:58:23.320 and you know, New York and Miami and Brazil and 1:58:24.200 --> 1:58:26.920 try to do more residency that way. So I do 1:58:27.000 --> 1:58:31.400 think the cost of production, transportation and the wear and tear. 1:58:32.840 --> 1:58:34.560 I think you'll start to see some of those models 1:58:34.600 --> 1:58:37.880 emerge where they won't do the one hundred dates, so 1:58:37.920 --> 1:58:41.080 they'll do sixty, but they'll be in five cities, not 1:58:41.560 --> 1:58:44.160 fifty cities. But I would say it all depends on 1:58:44.200 --> 1:58:47.280 your life cycle, right. Every artist knows Coldplay knows right 1:58:47.320 --> 1:58:50.840 now that they're making worldwide, global fans for life. They'll 1:58:50.880 --> 1:58:54.000 run around the world. Maybe there's a point where they say, Okay, 1:58:54.480 --> 1:58:57.360 we won't run as far now that we've done it, 1:58:57.400 --> 1:58:59.120 but they all know they got to go. They all 1:58:59.280 --> 1:59:01.720 everyone in the touring business, and you know, it has 1:59:01.760 --> 1:59:04.960 the stories of the artists that didn't do it and 1:59:05.000 --> 1:59:08.920 why they're not today able to be that global star. 1:59:09.160 --> 1:59:12.360 And then there's the Metallica model and lars on why 1:59:12.400 --> 1:59:15.800 they're selling and then their brand is so big forever, 1:59:16.240 --> 1:59:18.800 or the U two model, the Stones model. So most 1:59:18.840 --> 1:59:21.480 people look at that model and go, Okay, if I'm 1:59:21.480 --> 1:59:24.280 gonna have longevity, if I'm going to make money forever 1:59:24.720 --> 1:59:28.120 and be a global brand, I got to go actually 1:59:28.200 --> 1:59:32.480 do those one hundred date global tours. But I think 1:59:32.480 --> 1:59:35.120 you're right, there'll be artists now that once you've done 1:59:35.120 --> 1:59:37.400 it three or four times start to say, can I 1:59:37.440 --> 1:59:41.560 still make money doing that sitting down in a city, 1:59:42.440 --> 1:59:43.920 and that's definitely happening. 1:59:44.680 --> 1:59:46.960 Okay, what's the health of the festival mark? You talked 1:59:46.960 --> 1:59:50.920 about that great on sale in Brazil. So we had 1:59:50.960 --> 1:59:55.640 a couple of huge festivals Coachella, Lallapalooza, bon Aru, and 1:59:55.680 --> 1:59:58.920 then there were a million imitators. What's the health of 1:59:58.960 --> 1:59:59.760 the market now? 2:00:01.400 --> 2:00:03.120 You know, if you'd asked me a few years ago, 2:00:03.160 --> 2:00:07.200 I might have said I was worried that there was 2:00:07.480 --> 2:00:10.080 the headline, kind of the big ones that made it, 2:00:12.560 --> 2:00:14.520 and there were a lot in the middle trying to 2:00:14.600 --> 2:00:18.920 be big but didn't have soul. What I see today is, 2:00:20.280 --> 2:00:22.680 you know, if you are the if you've crossed the 2:00:22.680 --> 2:00:29.080 line like Coachella obviously has, or Lollapalooza, Blastonbury, E d C. 2:00:31.520 --> 2:00:33.720 They seem to be passage to rite. So they there 2:00:33.880 --> 2:00:38.080 there's and there's Rock and Rio and Brazil and Rector 2:00:38.120 --> 2:00:40.000 in Belgium. There tends to be one of those in 2:00:40.240 --> 2:00:43.720 every market and they're reading leads. They're fine. I think 2:00:43.760 --> 2:00:48.520 where the market got smart and we're seeing successes. Oh 2:00:48.800 --> 2:00:52.240 quickly the market whoever you are, realized you can't just 2:00:52.440 --> 2:00:58.040 rent this field and put Drake, Billy, Joel and little 2:00:58.080 --> 2:01:00.560 weighing on like that kind of idea that there was 2:01:00.720 --> 2:01:04.880 that was happening everywhere the festivals had, you know, wherever 2:01:04.920 --> 2:01:07.640 they were, we had some, everyone had them. And I 2:01:07.640 --> 2:01:10.400 think quickly those those got killed. Quickly you you realize 2:01:10.440 --> 2:01:13.560 you lost three million bucks who you didn't stand for anything. 2:01:15.280 --> 2:01:17.640 And and then what happened, though I'm seeing now is 2:01:18.200 --> 2:01:20.760 they quickly went to these one and two days, these 2:01:20.840 --> 2:01:26.080 nicher ideas that have more focus, and we're having a 2:01:26.280 --> 2:01:29.880 really really big success with these this year. You know 2:01:29.960 --> 2:01:32.400 when when we were young, last year in Vegas and 2:01:32.440 --> 2:01:35.600 again this year one day, two day festival, but really 2:01:35.680 --> 2:01:38.960 meant to be a one day tim Sweewood's got a few. 2:01:38.960 --> 2:01:41.760 We got this year, C and C. We just did 2:01:41.800 --> 2:01:44.360 one on the weekend. Charlie Walker texted me, I didn't 2:01:44.360 --> 2:01:46.960 even know we're doing in Texas a one day. So 2:01:47.360 --> 2:01:50.720 what I'm seeing is either you were already made it 2:01:50.720 --> 2:01:54.280 to the big big league and you're established and you 2:01:54.320 --> 2:01:56.400 just got to keep reinventing that brand and do what 2:01:56.440 --> 2:01:59.320 you do at the top end, or you're probably playing 2:01:59.360 --> 2:02:04.040 for a local or a niche idea that bottle Rock, 2:02:04.120 --> 2:02:07.120 for example, where or the market or the idea is 2:02:07.280 --> 2:02:11.160 niche enough to be a better experience, But it's probably 2:02:11.160 --> 2:02:14.040 a one day, maybe it's two on a on a 2:02:14.440 --> 2:02:16.480 good day. But so I think you've seen a lot 2:02:16.480 --> 2:02:19.520 of those pop up now where the risk is less. 2:02:19.880 --> 2:02:22.600 You're not betting on a three day, fourteen million dollar 2:02:23.760 --> 2:02:27.360 all in idea that's that's this multi genre festival. I 2:02:27.360 --> 2:02:30.600 think those are dyed. You've got to now be a 2:02:30.760 --> 2:02:35.920 more single shot festival that stands for something. And that 2:02:36.000 --> 2:02:37.920 idea that festivals, you know, that old idea that you 2:02:37.920 --> 2:02:40.480 could you know, put in the middle of anywhere. It 2:02:40.480 --> 2:02:43.360 doesn't work anymore. Like you've got to put that festival 2:02:43.360 --> 2:02:46.040 where you and I want to go on Saturday anyways. 2:02:46.600 --> 2:02:48.680 So why it works in Vegas, why it works in 2:02:49.320 --> 2:02:51.960 Palm Springs. But you can't put them in the middle 2:02:51.960 --> 2:02:55.080 of nowhere anymore. People want to want to want to 2:02:55.120 --> 2:02:58.120 go to either a destination or a town or a 2:02:58.160 --> 2:03:04.760 location where it's already got built in cool factor or destination. 2:03:05.000 --> 2:03:08.200 So so I think it's actually in a good space 2:03:08.720 --> 2:03:10.480 because I think a lot of we had a lot 2:03:10.520 --> 2:03:12.600 in the middle. We had some of those in the 2:03:12.600 --> 2:03:15.360 middle where you're bent and big. You're trying to be 2:03:15.440 --> 2:03:18.440 the next Coachella. You're never going to get there. You're 2:03:18.480 --> 2:03:20.200 trying to be the next Law of Palooza. So you're 2:03:20.200 --> 2:03:22.760 almost stuck in the middle. You don't stand for any 2:03:22.800 --> 2:03:24.680 you know, I always joke with my team, you know, 2:03:24.920 --> 2:03:28.240 a bad logo, a Ferris Will, an artist village and 2:03:28.320 --> 2:03:31.560 free headliners and they think they have magic, right, and 2:03:32.160 --> 2:03:35.400 it was formula, but it wasn't standing for anything. So 2:03:36.080 --> 2:03:40.080 we're seeing in the UK here Europe, if you're starting 2:03:40.200 --> 2:03:44.320 smaller and simpler, you're you're probably going to have success. 2:03:44.480 --> 2:03:47.200 And you're also in our view you can start five 2:03:47.280 --> 2:03:48.920 or six of those a year and if two don't 2:03:48.920 --> 2:03:53.000 make it, you're not You're not going down for ten millions. 2:03:53.160 --> 2:03:56.080 They're simpler to start more and if they got a 2:03:56.120 --> 2:03:58.840 flash like whence we were young. When we were young 2:03:58.960 --> 2:04:01.240 was on you. We put one day on an epssee 2:04:01.240 --> 2:04:03.960 one hundred and forty thousand tickets. If you hit a 2:04:03.960 --> 2:04:06.680 little mark an idea that can run, then you can 2:04:06.760 --> 2:04:09.480 run with it. But you don't start in a multi 2:04:09.520 --> 2:04:12.560 genre big idea. So top Pen seems to be doing 2:04:12.640 --> 2:04:15.560 we Coachella did well We're having a record year in Lollapalooza, 2:04:15.720 --> 2:04:19.720 Bonna rue is roared back, so I'm thrilled. I mean, 2:04:19.960 --> 2:04:23.160 the lawas outside of America are doing really well. Rock 2:04:23.200 --> 2:04:26.240 and rear, so the big boys and kind of the 2:04:26.320 --> 2:04:29.120 established ones seem to be doing really well this year. 2:04:30.840 --> 2:04:34.120 And I think if you're starting something smaller and niche, 2:04:34.120 --> 2:04:37.240 you're probably going to be Okay, what we miss? 2:04:37.320 --> 2:04:39.240 What do you have to tell my audience that we 2:04:39.280 --> 2:04:42.160 didn't cover? Well? 2:04:42.200 --> 2:04:43.680 I think we talked. I mean, listen, I think the 2:04:43.760 --> 2:04:48.520 idea that you know, it's as we're not a perfect business, 2:04:48.520 --> 2:04:52.720 but I think the industry of the venues and the 2:04:52.760 --> 2:04:55.240 cost that they're incurring, I don't think, you know, I 2:04:55.240 --> 2:04:57.480 think people just have not that everyone's going to understand 2:04:57.560 --> 2:04:59.680 or have a sympathy. But being a guy that owns 2:04:59.680 --> 2:05:01.720 a lot of venues, I looked at my venues this morning. 2:05:02.240 --> 2:05:05.400 You know, my amphitheaters. We you and I have talked 2:05:05.400 --> 2:05:08.760 about this before. My Amphitheater's lost one hundred and forty 2:05:08.760 --> 2:05:12.680 three million dollars at the door. So you wonder why 2:05:12.680 --> 2:05:15.320 I have a twenty dollars service fee right That means 2:05:15.360 --> 2:05:18.040 I'm paying not just the one hundred percent of the door. 2:05:18.080 --> 2:05:20.360 I'm paying one hundred and something percent of the door, right, 2:05:20.400 --> 2:05:21.920 So you got to pay for that somehow, right, So 2:05:22.920 --> 2:05:25.520 you got to pay for the perky and the booze 2:05:25.520 --> 2:05:28.440 that you know, the food. So this is an industry 2:05:28.480 --> 2:05:30.600 where your capex is going up, your costs are going up, 2:05:30.600 --> 2:05:33.720 and your artists costs are going up. So guess what 2:05:33.760 --> 2:05:35.440 that means. The fees are going to go up or 2:05:35.520 --> 2:05:40.320 revenue has to be generated to cover the costs. None 2:05:40.320 --> 2:05:43.520 of them are none of them are are evil in themselves. 2:05:43.520 --> 2:05:46.000 They're all part of the plot that says, to put 2:05:46.000 --> 2:05:48.720 a great show on in a great venue with the 2:05:48.800 --> 2:05:51.520 right staff and the and the insurance and the capex 2:05:51.560 --> 2:05:53.600 and all the things that come with putting a show on, 2:05:53.720 --> 2:05:56.720 it costs this much. And I think we're finally as 2:05:56.760 --> 2:05:59.360 an industry ready. I think we will move towards that 2:05:59.480 --> 2:06:02.600 all in because my my point is the artists should 2:06:02.640 --> 2:06:04.840 take all the money they deserve it, they should charge more, 2:06:06.040 --> 2:06:09.040 and the venues deserve to figure out how to pay 2:06:09.040 --> 2:06:13.200 for those venues and put that show on. So I 2:06:13.240 --> 2:06:16.080 just think as an industry, we've got to be presented 2:06:16.120 --> 2:06:18.080 it in a way that we can no longer proceed 2:06:18.160 --> 2:06:22.400 with because it's not defendable the way it's broken out today. 2:06:24.120 --> 2:06:28.040 So I think that's you know, you've been always it's 2:06:28.080 --> 2:06:30.600 a complex problem. I mean, I meet with you meet 2:06:30.600 --> 2:06:34.120 with a Senator, a congressman. They look at you and like, 2:06:34.160 --> 2:06:36.040 oh my god, the service fee, and you try to 2:06:36.040 --> 2:06:38.160 explain why the service fee at this, you know, and 2:06:38.160 --> 2:06:40.120 then you talk about the hockey game down the street 2:06:40.200 --> 2:06:42.760 and why the service fee and who the scalper is 2:06:42.800 --> 2:06:45.400 and why the scalper. I mean, it's a complex industry, 2:06:46.400 --> 2:06:51.600 hard to win any public opinion polls on explaining it. 2:06:52.120 --> 2:06:55.800 So it's a challenge in that front. But I do think, 2:06:56.080 --> 2:06:58.440 you know, we talk about the crisis in the last 2:06:58.520 --> 2:07:02.000 year has been our opportunity to actually start talking about 2:07:02.000 --> 2:07:04.400 it because I think I think will be better for 2:07:04.520 --> 2:07:07.360 it in the end, whether it's all in pricing the fair, 2:07:07.880 --> 2:07:12.240 some legislation will happen around secondary. There's enough movement now 2:07:12.280 --> 2:07:15.560 around that I think there'll be something that'll come around 2:07:15.640 --> 2:07:19.640 all in and or secondary. So I think that's a 2:07:19.640 --> 2:07:23.120 step forward because it's a sideshow to the actual great 2:07:23.160 --> 2:07:24.640 growth that the industry has. 2:07:25.960 --> 2:07:32.680 And what do you look for in hiring somebody, you know, it's. 2:07:32.800 --> 2:07:38.360 It's always a challenger. Your batting rate is fifty sixty percent, 2:07:39.440 --> 2:07:43.360 it's usually the the IQ is easily, it's usually I'm 2:07:43.400 --> 2:07:46.280 looking for EQ. Right. A lot of smart, smart people 2:07:46.320 --> 2:07:49.120 can get things done. But this is a rare industry 2:07:49.560 --> 2:07:52.400 where you can. You can come from Harvard, it don't matter. 2:07:52.760 --> 2:07:58.120 Can you actually get things done with people? You know? 2:07:58.320 --> 2:08:00.800 I joke that I, you know, I went to university 2:08:00.800 --> 2:08:03.040 and got an accounting a psychology degree, and I need 2:08:03.040 --> 2:08:06.960 them both every day here because this is not about. 2:08:07.120 --> 2:08:10.000 This isn't whether I have great strategy. I tomorrow could 2:08:10.000 --> 2:08:13.760 write down the April fruls idea you had, which was fabulous. 2:08:13.760 --> 2:08:15.520 I could give you the thirteen things we should do 2:08:15.560 --> 2:08:18.920 tomorrow to make this a better industry. It's irrelevant because 2:08:18.920 --> 2:08:20.760 I got get a lot. I got to herd a 2:08:20.760 --> 2:08:23.240 lot of cats. We got to move a whole industry 2:08:23.280 --> 2:08:26.480 and a lot of agendas at odds, and we got 2:08:26.480 --> 2:08:29.880 to find like common ground that we can move it 2:08:29.960 --> 2:08:34.160 somewhere forward and move the business forward. So we get 2:08:34.160 --> 2:08:36.760 lots you know, we'll hire them in sponsorship sometime and 2:08:36.760 --> 2:08:39.360 they'll come from somewhere and they have these great ideas 2:08:39.400 --> 2:08:40.720 and you know if we could just get Beyonce it 2:08:41.080 --> 2:08:44.200 on stage to do its like, Okay, that's not going 2:08:44.280 --> 2:08:47.080 to work. So you know, it's a it's an industry 2:08:47.080 --> 2:08:50.800 where you know, you got to understand and bring people 2:08:50.800 --> 2:08:53.200 in that definitely have the IQ. But can they manage 2:08:54.040 --> 2:08:56.360 understand our industry well enough to make sure we can 2:08:56.440 --> 2:09:00.000 move the people, manage the egos involved, put your egos 2:09:00.400 --> 2:09:02.160 and hopefully try to get something done. 2:09:03.760 --> 2:09:07.760 Okay, you're in your mid fifties. How long are you 2:09:07.840 --> 2:09:10.800 going to do this? This is a business where people 2:09:10.840 --> 2:09:13.840 tend to work in touring until they drop, unlike on 2:09:13.920 --> 2:09:18.000 the record side. And as we've discussed before, you know 2:09:18.080 --> 2:09:22.880 Liberty has a position in Live Nation. Greg mcfay is 2:09:23.000 --> 2:09:26.760 active as they have in Serious they have other interests. 2:09:27.440 --> 2:09:31.520 Could you ever be tempted to take a different job, 2:09:31.600 --> 2:09:32.480 another job? 2:09:34.640 --> 2:09:37.400 Well, so you know Greg does read your emails because 2:09:37.400 --> 2:09:40.200 he forwarded me or April Foles. So I didn't He said, 2:09:40.200 --> 2:09:42.640 I didn't think I had any See I must have power. 2:09:43.640 --> 2:09:45.640 Now Liberty has been a Greg and John have been 2:09:45.640 --> 2:09:52.440 incredible shareholders. They've been fabulous shareholders today. No, I think 2:09:52.480 --> 2:09:57.120 this is listen. I think the you got to be 2:09:57.120 --> 2:09:59.200 self aware as the CEOs to trust me, I don't 2:09:59.200 --> 2:10:02.360 take anything for grant in it. I know I'm not 2:10:02.400 --> 2:10:06.200 on the golf course. I get. I I don't do 2:10:06.240 --> 2:10:07.760 this for money. I do it because I love it. 2:10:09.440 --> 2:10:12.840 But I do think I think we have another chapter left. 2:10:12.960 --> 2:10:15.800 So I think there's I think there's another another move 2:10:15.840 --> 2:10:18.440 and another chapter left. We you know, when I launched 2:10:18.480 --> 2:10:20.720 this company, we're a few hundred million dollars market cap. 2:10:20.840 --> 2:10:24.840 We we started to build, we went global. Ticketmaster was 2:10:24.880 --> 2:10:29.440 a huge moment to differentiate our business. I think I 2:10:29.480 --> 2:10:32.080 got a few other moves in the in the playbook 2:10:32.120 --> 2:10:34.520 still that can make us a different business. So I'd 2:10:34.520 --> 2:10:36.760 like I'd like to I'd like to, you know, this 2:10:36.840 --> 2:10:39.480 new five year deal I have, I think we got 2:10:39.480 --> 2:10:42.160 some some moves left in the tank in this five years. 2:10:43.000 --> 2:10:47.280 I'm certainly not going to go run another business at 2:10:47.280 --> 2:10:53.120 this level, you know. I you know, I guess never 2:10:53.200 --> 2:10:56.920 as long and I love Disney and other companies, But 2:10:56.960 --> 2:10:59.480 I don't think I'm I'm I think I got I 2:10:59.480 --> 2:11:01.720 think I got a trick or two left here that 2:11:01.760 --> 2:11:06.520 we can unlock and make this an exciting place. And 2:11:06.840 --> 2:11:09.200 I think that's the way I finished the game. 2:11:10.760 --> 2:11:13.720 Okay, Michael, thanks so much for taking the time to 2:11:13.760 --> 2:11:16.400 speak to my audience. You've been very open and honest 2:11:16.400 --> 2:11:18.680 and forthcoming, and I thank you for that. 2:11:19.280 --> 2:11:20.840 Thank you, Bob, much appreciated. 2:11:21.760 --> 2:11:24.600 Until next time. This is Bob left Sets