1 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:12,719 Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Set podcast. 2 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:17,159 Speaker 1: My guest today is songwriter Holly Knight. She has a 3 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 1: new book entitled I Am the Warrior, My crazy life 4 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:24,800 Speaker 1: writing the Hits and rocking the MTV Eighties. So, Holly, 5 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: why did you write the book? Why did I write 6 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 1: the book? I guess I wrote it for a number 7 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:35,839 Speaker 1: of reasons. I tried to actually write it a few 8 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 1: years ago, and I took it to a person that 9 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 1: represents writers, and she came back and she said, well, 10 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 1: you know, it's really well written. I really like it, 11 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 1: but you're not a household name and I probably won't 12 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: be able to get you a deal. So I went, oh, 13 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: and I put it aside for about a year and 14 00:00:57,160 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 1: a half, and then people kept bugging me and going, 15 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: why aren't you know? I'd be in the kitchen at 16 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 1: some party or something and they don't you have to 17 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:06,680 Speaker 1: write a book. You have so many stories and they're 18 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:11,200 Speaker 1: so very there's so many different artists. So I thought, 19 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 1: you know what, uh fuck it, I'm doing it, and 20 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 1: so I put together a book proposal. I've learned how 21 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 1: to do it the proper way, you know. I got 22 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 1: an agent and I got a deal and that's how 23 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: it started, really, and then you know, the pandemic was 24 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:30,760 Speaker 1: going on, so I was home all the time anyway, 25 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 1: and I thought, you know, I really need a break 26 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 1: from songwriting, which happens to me during different so periodically 27 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:41,120 Speaker 1: I just have to stop writing and I need something 28 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 1: else to put my creative juice into. So I really 29 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: enjoyed it. Actually, I had a lot of fun writing 30 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 1: this book. Okay, what's the reaction been from some of 31 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 1: the people you mentioned. You're very honest, you say who 32 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: you have sex with. Some people you're not so charitable too. 33 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 1: Have you gotten any feedback you mean the people in 34 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 1: the book? Yeah, I got. I got feedback from Kathy 35 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 1: Valentine and Cassandra Peterson, my two buddies, and they loved it. 36 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:17,080 Speaker 1: I mean, Cassandra was so sweet and she said I 37 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:19,640 Speaker 1: had no idea you loved me so much, which is 38 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 1: pretty funny. But and Kathy as well, and they both 39 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: said that they were really impressed with the fact that 40 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 1: it was actually really well written. It wasn't just like 41 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 1: schlocked down. They're like, here, this happened, and this happened. 42 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 1: I tried to be you know, tried to be sort 43 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:39,679 Speaker 1: of artistic and as far as the guys, let's see, 44 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 1: I had everybody has been just freaking out over it 45 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 1: and telling me they love it. But the people that 46 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 1: are in it, I haven't gone out of my way 47 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 1: to tell too many of them that they're in the book. 48 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 1: And a lot of them I sent the book to, like, 49 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:56,839 Speaker 1: I sent it to Jean Gene Simmons, and I don't 50 00:02:56,840 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 1: know if he reads books, but he put a really 51 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 1: nice blurb on it, which was fantastic. And what was 52 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 1: great about it was his blurb totally mirrored the story 53 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 1: that I wrote about in the book, which kind of 54 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:11,639 Speaker 1: was validating. You know. I sent a copy to Paul Stanley. 55 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 1: I doubt he'll read it. Stephen. I didn't send it 56 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 1: to Steven Tyler. He's got a lot of stuff going 57 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 1: on right now. What about Rod Stewart, You know, you 58 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:26,120 Speaker 1: take a few swings into him, not vicious, but he 59 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 1: comes over to write a song and you never write right. Well, 60 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:32,639 Speaker 1: well that's his fault. You know. He was too busy 61 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 1: being mischievous and horsing around. And it was really important 62 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 1: to me to write something good. I mean, look, these 63 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 1: people call me to write something that you know, they've 64 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 1: run out of either juice or steam, or they've been 65 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: doing it too long, or they want fresh blood. And 66 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 1: so I can't just write an ordinary track, you know, 67 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 1: I have to write something that's really, really good. And 68 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: it was just frustrating. I mean I talked about it 69 00:03:57,360 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: in the book, and I don't think I put him 70 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: down it all. I just sort of told the facts 71 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 1: and said that I was, you know, all the different 72 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 1: things that happened, and honestly, when I saw him, I 73 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 1: mean that happened what twenty years ago, no more like 74 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:16,719 Speaker 1: thirty five years ago when I wrote Love Touch. But 75 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: he had made a remark, you know, as you know, 76 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:21,279 Speaker 1: he made a remark in the book about how it 77 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 1: was sorry, not in the book, he made a remark 78 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 1: on an anthology record that he did, and he said 79 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 1: that this song love Touch was one of the silliest 80 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 1: songs or embarrassing songs he'd ever recorded, which was a shocker, 81 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:38,599 Speaker 1: because that's not how it went down at all. He 82 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:40,919 Speaker 1: absolutely loved it, and he got me to come in 83 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 1: and sing it, and I played all the instruments on it, 84 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:46,359 Speaker 1: and he sent me flowers afterwards telling them how he 85 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 1: loved it. So it was like a complete about face. 86 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:50,599 Speaker 1: And I think that had a lot to do with, 87 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:54,840 Speaker 1: you know, the Man's club and everything that the rest 88 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: of his band and people whispering in his ear. But 89 00:04:56,920 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 1: the funny thing is I saw him at the Tina 90 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 1: Turner premier in London and the West End and he 91 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 1: was like, my best friend. I don't even I've seen 92 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 1: him before that he doesn't remember any of that. He 93 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 1: turned once to someone and it was his family. I 94 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:15,480 Speaker 1: ran into him in Central Park in New York at 95 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:18,599 Speaker 1: a restaurant and he turned to his family and said, 96 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:21,599 Speaker 1: Holly and I wrote this hit song, this great song together, 97 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 1: And I'm thinking, well, wow, no you didn't write it 98 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 1: with me, But now you think it's a hit song again, 99 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 1: So you know what the fuck it's you know, getting older? 100 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 1: What can I if you get paid anyway? I love touch? 101 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:40,159 Speaker 1: Does it bug you when he says the song is 102 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:45,920 Speaker 1: sillier doesn't like it? Yeah, I think it does bet 103 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:48,480 Speaker 1: me because you know, I'm still I still have feelings, 104 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 1: and if it were true, I would even say, yeah, 105 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:53,480 Speaker 1: that's not one of the best songs I've written. I mean, look, 106 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:55,720 Speaker 1: I've written a lot of songs with or you know, 107 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 1: for kiss and I wouldn't go walking down suns and 108 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 1: saying this is the best song I've ever written. I mean, 109 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:04,559 Speaker 1: water seats its own level, and they're great kiss songs, 110 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 1: but they're not the level of some of the songs 111 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 1: I write where I put a lot of effort into 112 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 1: lyrics and things like that. And that's why I said 113 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 1: in the book, I said, you know, I'm sorry, but 114 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 1: the lyrics I felt to love touch were fucking poetry. 115 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:23,040 Speaker 1: And I said it because I really feel that, you know, 116 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:26,840 Speaker 1: there's some really a lot of thought went into that tune. 117 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 1: I think he missed the whole point of it. I 118 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 1: don't know, I'm not. I mean, I'm not upset about 119 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:31,840 Speaker 1: it now. I got it out in the book. It's 120 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 1: amazing how cathartic this book has been, because there were 121 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:37,160 Speaker 1: a lot of things that I was kind of walking around, 122 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 1: you know, chewing on it like a bone, and it 123 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 1: just this somehow helped me to let it go. So 124 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 1: you mentioned earlier the boys club men's influence. What's it 125 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 1: like being a woman, or has been being a woman 126 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 1: in a guy's world. It's been interesting. I was always 127 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: a tomboy growing up, and also I kind of grew 128 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: up with a bit of a chip on my shoulder 129 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 1: based on my upbringing, and I also took music very 130 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 1: very seriously. I mean I started playing piano when I 131 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 1: was four, and I was playing Mozart sonatas in you know, 132 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 1: Mendelssohn at a ridiculously young age. So I was very confident. 133 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 1: I mean, there's a lot of things I'm not confident about, 134 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 1: or weren't I wasn't confident about, but music was definitely 135 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 1: not one of them. So when I walked into those rooms, 136 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 1: I just felt like, let's get to work. I have 137 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 1: every right. I have as much right to be here 138 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 1: as you do. And the minute we would start working 139 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 1: or I would start playing something, they would shut up, 140 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 1: you know, they would actually you could actually see the change. 141 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 1: It was really quite amazing to watch. And then, you know, 142 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:51,720 Speaker 1: my name started getting around and I think people just 143 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 1: accepted me. There was a lot of respect. It was 144 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: kind of unbelievable in a way that they just sort 145 00:07:56,760 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 1: of opened their doors and treated me like an cool 146 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 1: to be honest, except for the few times, and one 147 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 1: of them was the Rod Stewart story. That's probably the 148 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 1: probably the I don't want to say dark, but it's 149 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 1: probably the most revealing one as far as you know, 150 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 1: being around guys, because I mean, to walk into the room. 151 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 1: I had been asked to do a tour by the 152 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: management and by Rod, and it was a short tour. 153 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: It was three weeks and their keyboard player couldn't make it, 154 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 1: and I thought, it's just be so much fun. And 155 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 1: when I walked in, Rod wasn't there, and I went 156 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:32,439 Speaker 1: up to the guitarist and yeah, I definitely I had 157 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 1: something to say about him in the book, for sure, 158 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:36,959 Speaker 1: But you know, he looked at me like, well, who 159 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: are you? We didn't order any pizza, but let's go. 160 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 1: You know, we're living in the me too era and 161 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: not all men, but some men are very forward and 162 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:51,840 Speaker 1: it can be tough being a woman. Did you have 163 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 1: any of those experiences? No, not really. I had one 164 00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 1: I mentioned in the book when I was about eighteen, 165 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 1: and I was, you know, going sneaking backstage to like 166 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 1: Madison's Square Garden to sort of I mean, we didn't 167 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:10,680 Speaker 1: call it networking then, but that's basically what I was doing. 168 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 1: And I really described the backstage areas like another like 169 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:17,320 Speaker 1: the other side of the looking glass, like just such 170 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 1: a strange alternate reality. And there was a band one 171 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 1: night who they were the opening act to the bigger band, 172 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 1: and this guy came up to me. I think he 173 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 1: was a bass player or something, and he said follow me, 174 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:35,959 Speaker 1: and I followed him into a room and then he 175 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:38,079 Speaker 1: just turned around and grinned and said, I really would 176 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:41,200 Speaker 1: like a blowjob. And I just like I looked at 177 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: him like I was. I wasn't scared. I was more 178 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 1: like disgusted, like ill, and I ran at her there 179 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 1: as fast as I could. And after that, I just 180 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, this is not to take away 181 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 1: from people that have been constantly you know, these stories 182 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 1: of women that have been abused and raped by men. 183 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 1: I mean that it's disgusting how that goes on, but 184 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 1: that's not my story. My story was more like, don't 185 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 1: fuck with me. You know, if you if you want 186 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 1: the best to me, let's work together. And then there 187 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 1: were times, like I said in the book, there was 188 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:19,680 Speaker 1: plenty of ass grabbing, but that was on both sides. 189 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:23,560 Speaker 1: You know, if I wanted to be with someone, I 190 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 1: was flirting back. So you know, the me too movement 191 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 1: wasn't really sort of happening for me. And I know 192 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:33,440 Speaker 1: there are there's so many women that that story is true, 193 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:35,960 Speaker 1: and for them, I think it's wonderful if they have 194 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:39,680 Speaker 1: the courage to speak up, you know. But I really 195 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 1: I'm one of those people. Like this book is not 196 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 1: about you know, who tried to rape me or how 197 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: I went into rehab. I talked about that too. You know. 198 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 1: I did smoke pot and I did do blow, but 199 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:53,960 Speaker 1: I wasn't addicted and I stopped doing it thirty years ago. 200 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 1: And this is not a story about all the drugs 201 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: that nearly killed me. I So, in other words, not 202 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 1: everybody that drinks alcohol is an alcoholic, you know what 203 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:10,960 Speaker 1: I mean? Sure, okay, but you do delineate having sex 204 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 1: with some of these people you're working with, and that 205 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:19,080 Speaker 1: is not in most people's books written by women. Do 206 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:21,440 Speaker 1: you think you're the same and they just don't write 207 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 1: about it or are you different? Well, I can't speak 208 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 1: for anybody else's experiences, but I imagined, well I know 209 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: some of them, okay, and I'm not going to name names, 210 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:38,680 Speaker 1: but yeah, of course, you know, you think if it's different, 211 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:41,679 Speaker 1: it's not like you pick up a guy like, for instance, 212 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:44,720 Speaker 1: kiss They would pick up someone in the hallway of 213 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 1: like you know, the place they were playing in or 214 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:49,559 Speaker 1: they would probably they would boast about just meeting someone 215 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:52,560 Speaker 1: and asking them to give them, you know, head or something. 216 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 1: That was never the case with them. I mean I 217 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:57,679 Speaker 1: was a little classier than that. These were people that 218 00:11:58,200 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 1: I worked with. I mean, look, if you look at 219 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 1: an actor, he ends up sleeping with the actress that 220 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 1: he's doing the movie with. It just happens. You spend 221 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 1: all the time with him. They're charismatic, you're attracted to 222 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 1: each other, and stuff happens. But I went I never 223 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:15,199 Speaker 1: picked up people and did one night's stance. Even when 224 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:19,959 Speaker 1: I was in my bands like Spider and Device, I 225 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:23,840 Speaker 1: never picked up ever someone on the road. So that's 226 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:26,719 Speaker 1: a little bit of a difference, you know. But some 227 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 1: of the guys that I worked with I slept with, Yeah, 228 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 1: and I'm still friends with him or some of them 229 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 1: I dated, and some I married. How many times you've 230 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 1: been married three and are you presently married? No, I've 231 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 1: been married and divorced three times. So what did you learn? 232 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 1: I learned that I have to value myself more and 233 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 1: reach for the higher hanging fruit on the tree, and 234 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:59,560 Speaker 1: that I well, the second time I got married, I 235 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:02,439 Speaker 1: really wanted to have children, and you know, my biological 236 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:05,839 Speaker 1: clock was ticking in and I fell in love with someone, 237 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:09,439 Speaker 1: and you know, I was a great wife in my opinion. 238 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 1: I just ended up leading them because I never I 239 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 1: wasn't very prudent with the choices I made, you know. 240 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 1: So what I've learned is just to value myself and 241 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:22,560 Speaker 1: realize that if I'm going to enter in into a series, 242 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:25,839 Speaker 1: I'll never get married again, that's for sure. But now 243 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 1: I'm dedicating love as a battlefield when I play. I 244 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 1: dedicated to my ex husbands, you know. But um, okay, 245 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 1: if someone who's been married and divorced myself, people just 246 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 1: once I live with I live just one's been married, Okay, 247 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 1: and people always say, oh, you know it was equal. 248 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 1: We agreed, it's never equal. Somebody wants it more than 249 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 1: the other person. Were you the personally and how was 250 00:13:56,600 --> 00:14:03,560 Speaker 1: it with your three marriages? Um? I would say that, Well, 251 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 1: like I said, at the end of it, I had 252 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:09,720 Speaker 1: to kick all three of them out. Um, but I 253 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 1: would say that, let me think, I have to think 254 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 1: individually here for a second. Um, I think they needed 255 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 1: me more than I needed them. Okay, they needed me 256 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 1: for different reasons than I needed them. What they needed 257 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 1: me for was, um, a free ride. You know, I 258 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 1: was the breadwinner, and we could do a whole podcast 259 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 1: on that. But I think that's that's a little different subject. 260 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 1: But when one reads the book, if one is Hollywood fluent, 261 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 1: shit doesn't just happen. So I'm reading the book and 262 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 1: I said, well, you know, this woman had to be 263 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 1: pretty aggressive in order to be in these situations. Would 264 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 1: you agree with it? How would you characterize your own behavior? 265 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 1: I would say more than aggressive. I would say confident 266 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: and sort of creative with how I went about getting 267 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 1: their attention sometimes or you know, and sometimes yes, aggressive. 268 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 1: You know. For instance, when I was working with Tina Turner, 269 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 1: I really wanted her to cut a certain song. She's 270 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 1: cut none in my but I wrote this one song 271 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:26,240 Speaker 1: and I said, you called up her manager said you 272 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 1: have to get her to cut this tune. I know 273 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: this is the perfect tune for And I did that 274 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 1: whole thing and she ended up cutting it. And it's 275 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 1: funny because Roger did a BBC interview where he talked 276 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 1: about it. You know, but um, are you talking about 277 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 1: my work or my personal life? I'm talking about your work. Yeah, 278 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: I would say I was confident, and I think my 279 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 1: work spoke for itself. I didn't have to do a 280 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 1: lot of selling once my name got around. Yeah, well, 281 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 1: I'm more talking about you know, before you had a 282 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 1: hit with Obsession, and you know with Pat Benatar thereafter, 283 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 1: when you're scrapping, even when you're a teenager in New 284 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 1: York City, you know, everyone talks about getting backstage. It 285 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 1: is not easy to get backstage, it is. I was tenacious, Okay, 286 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 1: I was absolutely tenacious. I was relentless. Are you kidding? 287 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 1: If if maybe we're talking about semantics here, if that's 288 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 1: what you mean by aggressive. Absolutely I was very clever, 289 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: and you know I talked about it in the book. 290 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: I would I would spend most of the time talking 291 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 1: to the photographers because they always got invited to the 292 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 1: best parties, and they were the nicest ones. They weren't 293 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 1: as pretentious as you know, the other uber, trendy cool 294 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 1: people backstage. They were more down to earth and um, 295 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 1: I mean I never had a business card or anything, 296 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 1: but I was always trying to weasel my way into 297 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 1: some sort of conversation or or you know, and it 298 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 1: took a while. And like I said that, we didn't 299 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 1: have the word networking, but that's what I was doing, 300 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 1: and one thing led to another, to another to another. 301 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 1: But I think it was more confidence. And I also 302 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 1: talk about in the book the fact that it was 303 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 1: kind of crazy the way. I know you're finding it 304 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:15,880 Speaker 1: hard to believe, Bob, But a lot of things fell 305 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:19,679 Speaker 1: in my lap. You know, I'm not I wasn't in 306 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:21,920 Speaker 1: a band where we had a struggle for two three 307 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 1: years and things just happen. And I really believe in 308 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 1: a spiritual way that when the universe wants things for you, 309 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:30,879 Speaker 1: it gets out of your way. And not only that, 310 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 1: it aid and it bets the process. And these things 311 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 1: just kept coming in. That's not to say I haven't 312 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:38,119 Speaker 1: you know, I haven't had to eat shit and I 313 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 1: haven't had to be turned down all the time. I 314 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:43,439 Speaker 1: mean even now, you know, I've been in the Songwriters 315 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 1: Hall of Fame. But sometimes it's just degrading the way 316 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 1: people treat you. The songwriters get treated pretty much like shit. 317 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:55,439 Speaker 1: So tell me about this chip on your shoulder, be 318 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 1: a little deeper. What are you talking about. Well, when 319 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:03,160 Speaker 1: I was growing up and my parents divorced, my mother 320 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 1: was physically abusive, and you know, I didn't really get it. 321 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:10,199 Speaker 1: I didn't want to get into it too much, but 322 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 1: I told one story just so it would sort of 323 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:16,119 Speaker 1: show how something inside of me, that the fire in 324 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 1: my belly was ignited, so to speak, where I got 325 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:23,199 Speaker 1: tired of it and I learned to fight back. In 326 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 1: the beginning, I didn't fight back. And when I learned 327 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:28,879 Speaker 1: to fight back, it's like anything, when you give someone power, 328 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:31,640 Speaker 1: it's you giving them the power the minute you take 329 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 1: it away. That it's like, you know, that's seen in 330 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 1: the Wizard of Oz where the horrible mean Wizard you 331 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 1: put back the curtain. You see he's just a little 332 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 1: old man and he's yeah. So it's sort of like that. 333 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:46,399 Speaker 1: And so what came with that was a chip on 334 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:49,439 Speaker 1: the shoulder, you know, talking back to my mother getting 335 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 1: smack some more. And I just sort of carried that 336 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 1: on with me as I was sort of out there. 337 00:18:57,119 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 1: I mean, I talk about it in the book. I 338 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: don't get into it too much, but I was out 339 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 1: there for about four years, just traveling. I lived everywhere. 340 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 1: I lived in Seattle fore year, I lived in Boston 341 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: for two years. I was doing everything from food stamps too. 342 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 1: I'd work long enough to qualify for unemployment, and then 343 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 1: I'd get the unemployment and then when that would run out, 344 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: you know, I would do all of those things, and 345 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 1: I had lots of you know, straight jobs those were. 346 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:24,679 Speaker 1: That was probably the last time I ever had, like 347 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:28,239 Speaker 1: us a real job, like working for someone else, was 348 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:31,200 Speaker 1: when I was in Spider and that lasted I think 349 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 1: about a week, and then we got a record deal. 350 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:36,640 Speaker 1: And that's why I talked about these things. I kind 351 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:41,160 Speaker 1: of fall inside into your lap seemingly. But what'd your 352 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 1: father say when you told him about the abuse? Well 353 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 1: that was also difficult because my father was in total 354 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 1: denial and he wouldn't he wouldn't validate anything I was saying. 355 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 1: He wouldn't call her up and tell her to cut 356 00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 1: it out. And it took about fifty years. I went 357 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 1: into a therapist's office with him and finally found out 358 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 1: what was what that was all about, which I don't 359 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:08,920 Speaker 1: really need to I wouldn't want to, as disrespect to him, 360 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 1: get into it now. But that also made me angry, 361 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:15,440 Speaker 1: like why aren't you protecting me? You know? He would 362 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 1: always sort of like say, oh, she's like one of 363 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 1: those European women like Gina Lola Bridget as she likes 364 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 1: to pick up plates and throw him, you know, and 365 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 1: I would say, no, that's why are you glamorizing that? 366 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:30,200 Speaker 1: So that that also added to the chip on my shoulder, 367 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 1: you know, and also the fact that you look, my 368 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 1: book is dedicated to anyone who ever had a dream 369 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:39,679 Speaker 1: and was told no, And that was me because I 370 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:42,960 Speaker 1: was this sort of blossoming classical pianist. My mother really 371 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 1: wanted to groom me for that, and she said, you're this, 372 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:47,960 Speaker 1: You're not this. So then there was this angst once 373 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 1: I discovered rock music, and the louder the better, you know, 374 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:54,920 Speaker 1: that's where the rebelliousness started to grow, and the chip 375 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:59,440 Speaker 1: on my shoulder and all that, and you know, that's 376 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:04,120 Speaker 1: all part of It's so funny how so many things 377 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 1: in my life have led up to, you know, the 378 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 1: fact that I wrote The Warrior, that I write songs 379 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 1: that are about fighting and all that. It's like none 380 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 1: of it was premeditated. It just kind of unfolded that way. 381 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 1: And you know a lot of times, so when I 382 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:21,440 Speaker 1: was writing the book, I would come to these sort 383 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 1: of realizations. I never really analyzed it before until someone says, 384 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 1: explain it to me. And then you have to put 385 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 1: it into words, you know, so you ultimately run away 386 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:40,400 Speaker 1: from home and go on this ajira for years. Tell 387 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:44,479 Speaker 1: us a little bit about that. I left home when 388 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 1: I was fifteen, and it was right before my sixteenth birthday. 389 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 1: I just, you know, I didn't like the abuse that 390 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 1: was going on at home. My father wasn't listening to me. 391 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 1: And then one day I went up to my school, 392 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 1: which was music and art that was at the time. 393 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,920 Speaker 1: It was in a really rough neighborhood, which I don't 394 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:07,399 Speaker 1: even know the neighborhood is so rough now, but it 395 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:09,640 Speaker 1: was one hundred and thirty fifth Street in Convent Avenue 396 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 1: and now this school is next door to Juliard. I 397 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:15,880 Speaker 1: so wished should have been that way when I went there, 398 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:18,639 Speaker 1: But again that's my journey. So I remember one day 399 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:21,159 Speaker 1: I walked up to school and there was like police 400 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,159 Speaker 1: tape everywhere and they were pulling a body out of 401 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 1: this garbage cam that was chopped up in pieces. They 402 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:29,200 Speaker 1: just pulled the head out and I looked and I thought, 403 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:32,480 Speaker 1: this is crazy. I'm getting out of here. And I 404 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:34,880 Speaker 1: had met I already had a boyfriend at that point 405 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:37,919 Speaker 1: who was twenty. He was a drummer, and we had 406 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,639 Speaker 1: sort of been talking about doing the what IF's, like 407 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:42,840 Speaker 1: what and I'm thinking, what if I play a house. 408 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 1: I'm fifteen, What if I go out there and just 409 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,920 Speaker 1: grow up really fast and playhouse? And I was sort 410 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 1: of entertaining the idea, but I never thought it would happen. 411 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 1: And then one day I was working at sam Ash. 412 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:56,160 Speaker 1: I had got a job there, which, by the way, 413 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: I loved. I loved working. I loved that feeling of 414 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 1: making my own money, and to this day that is 415 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 1: so important to me, not to be dependent on someone else. Okay, 416 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,679 Speaker 1: a little bit, a little bit slower, so you're on 417 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 1: forty eight Street, but be Mannis and all these things, 418 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 1: you know, and it was sort of an intense buying experience. 419 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:18,240 Speaker 1: You just walked in and said, you gotta hire me. 420 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 1: How did you actually get the job? It's like the 421 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 1: things that fall into my left I walked in there 422 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:29,399 Speaker 1: and I remember the manager's name was Herb and I 423 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 1: said to him, I'm looking for a job. I'm still 424 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:34,360 Speaker 1: in school, so I can only work part time. I'm 425 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:41,480 Speaker 1: a musician. Are you hiring? And he just took my number, 426 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 1: kind of looked at me there like whatever, because everybody 427 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,640 Speaker 1: that worked there. They were all men, and I got 428 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 1: a call at home that night and asking if I 429 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:52,479 Speaker 1: could come in the next day. So I guess they 430 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:56,639 Speaker 1: must have fired someone like unexpectedly, and you know, I 431 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 1: was in the right place at the right time, and 432 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 1: he called me in and I loved working there because 433 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 1: it was sort of with Then this happens a lot 434 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 1: with musicians that get jobs at all these places like 435 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:11,719 Speaker 1: Guitar Center or whatever. At least you're around music, and 436 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,439 Speaker 1: it puts you one step closer to being in the 437 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 1: music business, even if it's a fantasy. But then also 438 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:20,639 Speaker 1: the fact that so many people come into these stories 439 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 1: that are legendary. I mean they have to buy equipment, 440 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 1: and I don't know how it is now, but in 441 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:27,680 Speaker 1: that day they wanted to come in and check out 442 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:31,199 Speaker 1: the equipment themselves. Now they maybe they send someone I 443 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 1: don't know, but I did all the like really crappy 444 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:36,879 Speaker 1: little jobs that no one else wanted to deal with. 445 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 1: Like if he wanted to sell like an amphead at 446 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 1: new and it had some knicks on it, he would 447 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: give me a sharpie and I'd have to color it 448 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,439 Speaker 1: in and make it look new. Or he sent me 449 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 1: in the back where all the cables were. I mean 450 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:51,919 Speaker 1: to this day, when a roadie sees me take a 451 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,439 Speaker 1: guitar cable and wrap it up there, they're like, where'd 452 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 1: you learn that? It's like after doing hundreds in the 453 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 1: backup over and over and over, just like a giscop boom, 454 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:02,400 Speaker 1: it got really I got good at it, but they 455 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,199 Speaker 1: were kind of crappy things. And then one day on 456 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:06,679 Speaker 1: my break, I was in the back and I was 457 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,200 Speaker 1: playing keyboards and then I hear someone clapping and I 458 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 1: turned around and it's heard of the manager and he said, 459 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 1: where did you learn to play like that? And then 460 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:16,959 Speaker 1: I told him more about me, and then from that 461 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 1: point on he used to have me demonstrate keyboards to buyers, 462 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 1: like I couldn't actually make the sale because I wasn't 463 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,200 Speaker 1: legally old enough or I didn't have a so I 464 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:27,440 Speaker 1: don't remember what it was, social Security or something, but 465 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:29,199 Speaker 1: he just sort of would call me out and I 466 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 1: haven't just go play and you know, and make it sound, 467 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 1: and I try and make it look like it was easy, 468 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 1: like if you press this, but you get this sound 469 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:39,639 Speaker 1: and blah blah blah, and so it was. It was. 470 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 1: It was cool and a lot of you know, my God, 471 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 1: A lot of really big artists came in, and I 472 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,120 Speaker 1: would just sort of like poker face to stare, like, 473 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 1: holy shit, it's Jimmy Page, Holy shit, it's Frank Zappa, 474 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 1: you know. I mean it was like, you know, It's 475 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,439 Speaker 1: one thing when you see something I said in the 476 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,400 Speaker 1: Book of you start to believe that you know people 477 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:02,439 Speaker 1: when you see them all the time on TV or 478 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:04,640 Speaker 1: in magazines and stuff. But then when they walk in 479 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 1: and you realize it's sim and you think, I don't 480 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,480 Speaker 1: really know them at all, but I know that face 481 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:12,399 Speaker 1: and I know what they've done, and I you know, 482 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 1: I did that a lot in the book, and I 483 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:16,200 Speaker 1: still do that. I'm a fan, girl. I'm a fan. 484 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 1: I'm a music fan, especially that era, you know, the 485 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:24,120 Speaker 1: seventies and eighties. There's really nothing like it right now, 486 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 1: you know, that's for sure. Okay, So tell me about 487 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 1: actually leaving New York. You mean when I ran away 488 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 1: the first time? Or yes, because I ran away a 489 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,880 Speaker 1: few times. Okay, So I was fifteen and I lied 490 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 1: to my mother. I had found out that, oh right. 491 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:42,440 Speaker 1: I started to tell you about sam Ash I saw 492 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: brochure and it was a summer school program up in 493 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:52,120 Speaker 1: Boston called the Electronic Boston School of Electronic Music, and 494 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: they were teaching electronic music on synthesizers like ARP twenty 495 00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 1: six hundreds and the Mogue, not just the Mini because 496 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:02,480 Speaker 1: they had the big mugs like with you know, you 497 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 1: had to be practically a phone operator to learn how 498 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,120 Speaker 1: to use those because you had to plug all these 499 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 1: cables in and everything. I was really fascinated with all that. 500 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,399 Speaker 1: I mean, I was like Emerson, like a Palmer geek, 501 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:20,119 Speaker 1: and I sort of saw myself as a female version 502 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 1: of him. You know. I wanted to perform. I didn't 503 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 1: know I wanted to be a songwriter. I just want 504 00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:26,120 Speaker 1: to be a rock star, you know. And I didn't 505 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:28,200 Speaker 1: want to be a rock star because I cared about 506 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:32,240 Speaker 1: so much about being famous. I didn't even think about 507 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:34,600 Speaker 1: the money part. I just wanted to play the music 508 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,720 Speaker 1: that I wanted to be played, to be playing, and 509 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 1: I wanted to play to an audience. So that's really 510 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,119 Speaker 1: how it started. The songwriting thing sort of came after 511 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,760 Speaker 1: the fact, after I'm probably getting ahead of myself again, 512 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:51,159 Speaker 1: but um so I left home pretending that I was 513 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:53,120 Speaker 1: going to come home on such and such a date, 514 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,119 Speaker 1: like it was labor weekend. I'll see you, you know, 515 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 1: I said, I was just glad to be away from 516 00:27:57,359 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: my mother, and I think she was probably glad to 517 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 1: get than me too, So I told her i'd be back. 518 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:06,639 Speaker 1: And then about a week or so before I was 519 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 1: supposed to be back, I'd been plotting this all summer. 520 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 1: I mean, this was like the great escape to me, 521 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 1: and we'd saved money. I went with the boyfriend, Danny 522 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 1: the drummer, and somehow I felt safe. And the funny 523 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,800 Speaker 1: part is like it wasn't like I was going out 524 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:26,200 Speaker 1: on the road with a twenty year old that was 525 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 1: taking care of me. It was kind of the other 526 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,639 Speaker 1: way around. He was the child and I was taking 527 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 1: care of him, you know. But at least I felt 528 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,320 Speaker 1: more protected, and I felt that was my first love. 529 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 1: I fell in love with him, and I had this 530 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,720 Speaker 1: fantasy that we would form a band, and that never happened, 531 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,440 Speaker 1: and we just we went on these crazy adventures that 532 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:46,560 Speaker 1: you know, when I originally wrote the book, I wrote 533 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 1: about one hundred pages more and I wrote about some 534 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 1: of these escapades we went on on the road, because 535 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 1: that's even more like unbelievable, some of those stories. But 536 00:28:57,120 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 1: I decided that this book had to have some sort 537 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 1: of hook. So the hook for me was the MTV era, 538 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 1: which was unlike any other to me. You know, that's 539 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: when I had started really having a lot of hits 540 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 1: and stuff. But so before that, yeah, so we traveled 541 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 1: around and eventually I ended up back in New York 542 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 1: and you graduate from high school. I did. What I 543 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 1: did was I went to Bourns and Noble and I 544 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 1: got and they were around back then, and I got 545 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 1: the you know, like when you're studying for college, you're 546 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:33,720 Speaker 1: studying for certain exams, you have these practice books. So 547 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 1: I got some practice books for the GED And the 548 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 1: thing that was amazing was I always had really really 549 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 1: good reading skills. Like when I was in fourth grade, 550 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 1: I was reading on a ninth or tenth grade level. 551 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 1: So that's always gotten me through life because I'm so 552 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 1: self taught on so many levels and the fact that 553 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,720 Speaker 1: I liked to read. And then the Internet came along 554 00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 1: and it was just like this explosion of like available 555 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:02,240 Speaker 1: knowledge right at your finger tips. Um. So anyway, I 556 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 1: studied from the book and I took the test and 557 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 1: got my diploma, and I thought, well, that's funny. I've 558 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 1: just spent three years out on the road, and I 559 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:12,920 Speaker 1: got my diploma like everybody else my age, you know, 560 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 1: I had to wait till I was eighteen to qualify, 561 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 1: and then I sent it to my dad because I 562 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 1: know he was really ashamed, but I was kind of 563 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: ashamed too that I hadn't graduated. But I knew I 564 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 1: was going to work it out, you know. And as 565 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 1: it turned out, I scored really high and I could 566 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:30,800 Speaker 1: have gone to college, but I didn't have to because 567 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 1: then my career things happen. You know, So what did 568 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,880 Speaker 1: what did your mother ever say about your success when 569 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:43,720 Speaker 1: you had it? It took her a long time to 570 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 1: actually come out and say I'm proud of you. And 571 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,080 Speaker 1: she's probably said that to be in baby three or 572 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 1: four times my entire life. So hence that's another another 573 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 1: part of the chip on the shoulder, you know. Um 574 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:00,960 Speaker 1: she's she's passed away now, so right, that's another thing 575 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 1: that I thought, now I can write the book because 576 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:06,400 Speaker 1: both my parents aren't around anymore. Because I didn't want to. 577 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 1: I didn't want to hurt make it worse, or hurt 578 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:12,320 Speaker 1: their feelings or anything. But um, I always sort of 579 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 1: when I tell these stories, I placed the story more 580 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 1: on me as opposed to them, you know what my 581 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:21,960 Speaker 1: interpretation of that is. But um, like, for instance, I 582 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 1: would give her, I would give her like a bunch 583 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 1: of CDs and to listen to and enjoy different ones, 584 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 1: like like different bands, like one would be bon Jovi 585 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:34,720 Speaker 1: and one would be Aerosmith and one would be Kissed. 586 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 1: And I knew she hated that kind of music, so 587 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:38,880 Speaker 1: she just gave them away. She kind of used it 588 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,720 Speaker 1: to make herself look like, look look at my daughter, 589 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 1: Look what she did. But she didn't she didn't really 590 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:48,480 Speaker 1: listen to them herself. And and I wasn't surprised at 591 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 1: that point, but it still bothered me. You know, it's 592 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 1: funny when you have this relationship with your parents, no 593 00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 1: matter how fucked up they are, and maybe when they're 594 00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 1: even when they're fucked up, you want you still care 595 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 1: what they think, even though they've talked and treated you 596 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 1: badly or whatever. You still want more than anybody else's approval, 597 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 1: or you want them to say I'm proud of you 598 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 1: or whatever. It's very important because it's part of who 599 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:21,720 Speaker 1: you are. Okay, you ultimately join what becomes Spider. Tell 600 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,480 Speaker 1: us how you get into that band, which very interestingly 601 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:28,680 Speaker 1: includes Anton fig of course, was the drummer for David 602 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 1: Letterman forever. Yeah, I was friends with someone who you know, 603 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 1: he was just he was great at hooking people up. 604 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:46,240 Speaker 1: And he invited me to go see a band one night, 605 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 1: and I went and band had a couple of members 606 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 1: that were just filling in because they wanted to do 607 00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:54,200 Speaker 1: their own band. And I met them and one of 608 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 1: them was Aunton and the other one was Keith, and 609 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 1: I just immediately like him. And I remember thinking Keith 610 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,640 Speaker 1: had said something about wanting to do his own music 611 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:07,720 Speaker 1: and wanted to get a record deal and wanted to 612 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 1: be in a band, and that they were just doing 613 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 1: this as if you know, a temporary gid to make money, 614 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:17,520 Speaker 1: and that just really that was like. When he said that, 615 00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 1: I thought, this is the one, This is the one 616 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:23,960 Speaker 1: if I'm going to give him my number, and he 617 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:26,240 Speaker 1: seemed interested in me, and I thought, if he calls me, 618 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 1: I'm definitely going to go check it out. And I 619 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:31,720 Speaker 1: figured if he doesn't call me in the next couple 620 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 1: of days, I'm going to call him. I don't care. 621 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 1: So the next day he called me after I had 622 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:44,040 Speaker 1: met him, and it was about eleven or eleven thirty 623 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,640 Speaker 1: at night, and he said, we you know, I talked 624 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:51,520 Speaker 1: to Amanda who was the singer, and Keith and Anton 625 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:53,840 Speaker 1: and we'd love for you to come down and have 626 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,880 Speaker 1: a listen to our music. And I said, I'd love to. 627 00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:59,000 Speaker 1: When when are you thinking? And he said right now, 628 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:01,760 Speaker 1: I'm like ready for bed. It was like one of 629 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,720 Speaker 1: the few nights I've taken a bath and already tucked 630 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 1: in like thinking. And I thought, get your ass up, 631 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:10,799 Speaker 1: this is it, this is the one. This is what 632 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,960 Speaker 1: you've been waiting for for four years. See when I 633 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:17,279 Speaker 1: was when I had run away with Danny, we would jam, 634 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:19,239 Speaker 1: you know, but we were always like a basement band, 635 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:21,680 Speaker 1: and it usually was just me on keyboards and him 636 00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:25,280 Speaker 1: on drums, and it just I always had the stream, 637 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:29,360 Speaker 1: and it bothered me that he wasn't. He he didn't 638 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,480 Speaker 1: have sort of the same ambitions. So I was very 639 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:34,960 Speaker 1: much focused on wanting to make it. At that point, 640 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:37,400 Speaker 1: I wasn't half asked about it at all. I was 641 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 1: going out every night, I was sneaking backstage. I was 642 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:43,160 Speaker 1: networking and going to tracks and to clubs and talking 643 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:45,560 Speaker 1: to people. And you know, I got a job in 644 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:48,240 Speaker 1: a music store, so it was all moving in that direction. 645 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:51,520 Speaker 1: So it's not like I was, you know, a waitress 646 00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:54,640 Speaker 1: in like a in a bar restaurant, and then all 647 00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 1: of a sudden I decided I wanted to be in music. 648 00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:59,320 Speaker 1: This was started when I was four. You know, music 649 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:03,440 Speaker 1: was my first language and it still is. Anyway, they 650 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:10,240 Speaker 1: invited me down and we ended up jamming, and yeah, 651 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:12,920 Speaker 1: it was really funny because Amanda said something like it 652 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:14,880 Speaker 1: was too late to go back uptown. I lived up 653 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:16,960 Speaker 1: on seventieth and on the West Side, and they were 654 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,800 Speaker 1: down in Soho in a loft and Amanda said, you 655 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,560 Speaker 1: should just stay spend the night. You can sleep with 656 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:27,919 Speaker 1: antone in his room, and we went okay. So I 657 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:29,480 Speaker 1: went in the room and slept with him and he 658 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,000 Speaker 1: became my boyfriend. I mean, that's how funny it is 659 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:34,720 Speaker 1: when you're young. It's just you're just young and stupid, 660 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 1: and it's like it doesn't take much if you're attracted 661 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:40,840 Speaker 1: to someone to go, you know, okay, let's give this 662 00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 1: a shot. So he was my boyfriend in the band 663 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:45,160 Speaker 1: for about two and a half years. He's still a 664 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:49,920 Speaker 1: very good friend of mine, as is Keith. We're all buddies. Okay, 665 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:56,560 Speaker 1: a couple of things. Hey, what happened to Keith and Amanda? Ultimately? 666 00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,719 Speaker 1: And then a man has a baby with Keith when 667 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:02,640 Speaker 1: you get there. Then she ends up being involved with 668 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:07,360 Speaker 1: the Anton as they say, where are all these people today? Yeah, 669 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:12,240 Speaker 1: you know, people talk about the social sort of incestuous 670 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:14,239 Speaker 1: stuff that went on in Fleetwood Mac. But we have 671 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:17,799 Speaker 1: him beat because when I broke up with Anton, it 672 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:19,480 Speaker 1: was just too much, you know, like as we were 673 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:21,600 Speaker 1: trying to get a deal, it was just twenty four 674 00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:23,720 Speaker 1: seven too much. And I knew that being in the band, 675 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:26,000 Speaker 1: that that was the more important of the two. So 676 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:29,879 Speaker 1: I moved out of I had moved in the lot, 677 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:32,200 Speaker 1: and we were all living in this lot together except 678 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:35,120 Speaker 1: the bass player, and so I decided that I was 679 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:38,040 Speaker 1: going to move into my own place. And then about 680 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:41,840 Speaker 1: a year later, things started to deteriorate between Amanda and 681 00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,640 Speaker 1: I for reasons that I write about in the book. 682 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:47,719 Speaker 1: She's the only one I don't talk to. Well, I 683 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:49,640 Speaker 1: don't talk to Jimmy, but it's not because I'm not 684 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:52,680 Speaker 1: talking to him. It's it's more like I just don't 685 00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:56,280 Speaker 1: know where he is. He was an amazing bass player. 686 00:36:56,480 --> 00:37:00,839 Speaker 1: But anyway, so after I think was going on while 687 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:02,400 Speaker 1: I was in the band. I still don't know it. 688 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:06,279 Speaker 1: I've never really asked them. But Amanda divorced Keith. They 689 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:09,520 Speaker 1: still had the child Shay together, and then she started 690 00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:13,320 Speaker 1: seeing Anton. At this point I had left the band, 691 00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,279 Speaker 1: so but I knew something was going on. I told 692 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:18,640 Speaker 1: him I'd finished out the tour. She just made a 693 00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:22,399 Speaker 1: switch and went from and they were best friends. They 694 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:27,240 Speaker 1: had grown up together in South Africa, and Amanda's also African, 695 00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:31,480 Speaker 1: and I think Keith was more like you could have 696 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:33,840 Speaker 1: her take her. She's always take her off my hands, 697 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:38,080 Speaker 1: but you'd have to ask him. But that's the story 698 00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:41,480 Speaker 1: that I got. And then they got married and they 699 00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:45,000 Speaker 1: had a child together. So now the lead singers had 700 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:48,360 Speaker 1: gotten married to two different members at different times and 701 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:53,280 Speaker 1: had children with both of them. And Keith and Anton 702 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:57,520 Speaker 1: are still like best friends. That's the best part. They 703 00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:00,320 Speaker 1: don't talk to her, but they're like boys stick together, 704 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:04,600 Speaker 1: you know. I think the whole thing's actually pretty funny 705 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,680 Speaker 1: when I think about it now. So tell us about 706 00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:13,240 Speaker 1: changing your name. So we all we were so focused 707 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:15,479 Speaker 1: on getting a record deal, and you know, we wrote 708 00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:21,040 Speaker 1: original material, and I changed my name because my original name, 709 00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:24,200 Speaker 1: which is German Jewish, which I meant, you know, I 710 00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:27,640 Speaker 1: talked about in the book. It just didn't nobody ever 711 00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:31,840 Speaker 1: pronounced it correctly in the first place. And I was 712 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:33,680 Speaker 1: just trying to think of a name that would be cool. 713 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:37,480 Speaker 1: And I had a dream one night, and in the 714 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:40,080 Speaker 1: dream I was Holly Night. So Holly has always been 715 00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:43,080 Speaker 1: my name, but the Night came to me in a 716 00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:45,719 Speaker 1: dream and I never questioned it. It It just seemed so 717 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:48,279 Speaker 1: normal in the dream. I loved it, and I when 718 00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:51,240 Speaker 1: I woke up, I thought that's it. And I didn't 719 00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:54,720 Speaker 1: really read into it until much later is my life 720 00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:58,759 Speaker 1: started unfolding the significance of the word night because the 721 00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:02,320 Speaker 1: Nights are warriors and they're fighters, you know, and they 722 00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:04,800 Speaker 1: protect people. I just liked it because it was British. 723 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,680 Speaker 1: I was sort of without knowing what an Anglo file was. 724 00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,640 Speaker 1: I was a total Anglo file. You all started with 725 00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:12,719 Speaker 1: James Bond and then I'm just to this day, it's 726 00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:16,640 Speaker 1: like English accent just melts me. And it's a very 727 00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:19,640 Speaker 1: common name in England. It's like akin to what Smith 728 00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,319 Speaker 1: is here, you know, But also just the rhythm of it, 729 00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:25,320 Speaker 1: because I now I look back and I go Okay, 730 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:28,279 Speaker 1: the rhythm of lyrics and the rhythm of things Holy Knight. 731 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:32,920 Speaker 1: I have a son, Tristan Knight, Dylan Knight. It's all 732 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:36,360 Speaker 1: the same sort of you know, rhythm to it. And 733 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:39,160 Speaker 1: that's It's funny because all these years I've had different 734 00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:42,520 Speaker 1: publishing companies and I always sort of play around with 735 00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,560 Speaker 1: the word nights. So I've had My first publishing company 736 00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:49,239 Speaker 1: was Ninty Night. Of course these are all with k's okay, 737 00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:53,120 Speaker 1: ninety Night. Then I had night Club. Then I had 738 00:39:53,440 --> 00:40:00,839 Speaker 1: um Nightlife Music. My Instagram is night Vision. Then I 739 00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:04,360 Speaker 1: had another publishing company because every time you change your 740 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:07,120 Speaker 1: publishing deal, you have to change your publishing name, at 741 00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:10,080 Speaker 1: least I did. And then I had good Night like 742 00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:12,359 Speaker 1: good Night Songs, and the one that I have now 743 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:23,520 Speaker 1: is Knighted Knighted Songs. Okay, you wit. You end up 744 00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:26,319 Speaker 1: connecting with Bill alcoyne. Tell us about that and what 745 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:31,440 Speaker 1: Bill was really like. Bill was like no other manager 746 00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:33,279 Speaker 1: that I've met, and I've met a lot of them, 747 00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:35,640 Speaker 1: worked with a lot of them over the years. He 748 00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:39,799 Speaker 1: was very unique. He was very charismatic from manager he 749 00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:45,480 Speaker 1: managed kiss and what happened was I'll try and make 750 00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:48,160 Speaker 1: this really short. There were three South Africans in the 751 00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:52,400 Speaker 1: group and they befriended Eddie Kramer, who was also you know, 752 00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:55,879 Speaker 1: they had that expatriot think of another South African. And 753 00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:58,920 Speaker 1: for those that are listening, if you don't know, you 754 00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:02,480 Speaker 1: know he did Hendrix in Zeppelins as a producer. He 755 00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:04,839 Speaker 1: wanted to produce the band when we got our record deal, 756 00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:10,080 Speaker 1: and so Bill A. Coyne was managing Kiss and they 757 00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:12,960 Speaker 1: each were about to do a solo record. Eddie Kramer 758 00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:15,560 Speaker 1: was doing Ace Freeley's record, and Keith thought, oh, I 759 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:18,200 Speaker 1: have the song and he said to Eddie, can you 760 00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:20,520 Speaker 1: give this to Ace? Maybe he'll cut it. Well. Ace 761 00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:22,600 Speaker 1: heard the song and didn't really care for it, but 762 00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:26,839 Speaker 1: he loved the drummer and that was Anton, so he said, 763 00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:28,680 Speaker 1: do you think he would come and play on the record, 764 00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:32,800 Speaker 1: So he did. Then they became friends, Party Animal friends, 765 00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:37,960 Speaker 1: and and Kiss heard Anton play on Ace's record and 766 00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:39,400 Speaker 1: they were like, oh my god, we should get him 767 00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:41,759 Speaker 1: to play on the Kiss records because Peter Chris was 768 00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:45,279 Speaker 1: you know, he was a mess at the time and 769 00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:49,040 Speaker 1: wasn't really in any condition to play on any record. 770 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:52,759 Speaker 1: So Anton ended up playing on Dynasty as well. But 771 00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:54,480 Speaker 1: I don't want to get too far ahead of myself. 772 00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:56,400 Speaker 1: It's all in the book. There's a great chapter on 773 00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:59,640 Speaker 1: the Spider and Kiss Sing and anyway, that's how we 774 00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:03,480 Speaker 1: met the band. We met Kiss and we started to 775 00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:07,439 Speaker 1: get to know them because I was Anton's girlfriend. Every 776 00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:10,200 Speaker 1: time Anton would go out shrinking or parting, I was 777 00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:14,279 Speaker 1: invited because I was the girlfriend, you know, So I 778 00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:17,759 Speaker 1: got to know Ace, and you know, eventually they got 779 00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:20,799 Speaker 1: to Bill, who came down to see us play. We 780 00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:24,120 Speaker 1: were the house band at a club called Tracks, and 781 00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:27,120 Speaker 1: he came back to the little dressing arms the size 782 00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:29,640 Speaker 1: of a bathroom. We were all practically naked standing there 783 00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:32,279 Speaker 1: changing and he's just talking, like doesn't care at all 784 00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:34,560 Speaker 1: that we're changing in the same room. He goes, I 785 00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:37,520 Speaker 1: want to manage you, and we were like what. We 786 00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:39,680 Speaker 1: looked at each other, did we really hear him say that? 787 00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:41,480 Speaker 1: And he says, yeah, I want to manage you, and 788 00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:44,000 Speaker 1: we all screamed like holy fuck, you know, or some 789 00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:47,520 Speaker 1: form of it. Because everybody wanted Bill a coin. He 790 00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:49,719 Speaker 1: was like the superstar. There were a few of them, 791 00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:54,640 Speaker 1: but he was definitely one of them. And then that's 792 00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:56,440 Speaker 1: how we ended up going about trying to get our 793 00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:59,640 Speaker 1: deal and we signed to rock Steady, which was you know, 794 00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:03,319 Speaker 1: the aduction company. But going back to what was Bill like, Okay, well, 795 00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:05,880 Speaker 1: Bill was totally out with being gay at a time 796 00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:09,000 Speaker 1: that nobody who's really being out with it. He just 797 00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:12,600 Speaker 1: didn't care. He just wore like a badge on his coat. 798 00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:16,320 Speaker 1: And speaking of coats, he didn't look anything like a 799 00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:19,680 Speaker 1: rock and roll This guy wore like suits, business suits 800 00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:23,160 Speaker 1: in a tie, you know, so we really kind of 801 00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:27,320 Speaker 1: elegant or whatever. And even though he looked really straight, 802 00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:30,080 Speaker 1: he's probably one of the most rock and roll trashy 803 00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:32,960 Speaker 1: people like when it came to you know, his own 804 00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:37,960 Speaker 1: personal lifestyle and stuff. But yeah, I liked him immensely. 805 00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:40,200 Speaker 1: But you know, he favored the boys in the band, 806 00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:42,040 Speaker 1: so he would try and if we would go over 807 00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:45,480 Speaker 1: to his fancy apartment in the Olympic Powers, which was 808 00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:49,280 Speaker 1: really sort of a fabulous place. You know, disco music 809 00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:51,279 Speaker 1: would be playing and he'd be giving the guys like 810 00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:54,080 Speaker 1: something that would keep them up and erected. He was 811 00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:56,640 Speaker 1: giving us something that would just make us pass out 812 00:43:57,360 --> 00:43:59,440 Speaker 1: so that he could have his way with the boys. 813 00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:01,400 Speaker 1: And again, if you think of the me too, you 814 00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:04,160 Speaker 1: know what and even me, like we just looked at 815 00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:06,920 Speaker 1: him like fuck off. If we would laugh about it, 816 00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:10,040 Speaker 1: and then he would laugh and that was it, you know. 817 00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:14,600 Speaker 1: He never he never actually tried to like do suddenly 818 00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:17,120 Speaker 1: with the guys unless they were willing at that time, 819 00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:19,279 Speaker 1: That's my take on it. And we never took any 820 00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:21,759 Speaker 1: of his drugs. We were like, I'm not taking that, 821 00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:24,160 Speaker 1: you know, I'm not going to go to sleep in 822 00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:27,520 Speaker 1: your apartment. So um, I don't know. I look at 823 00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:29,480 Speaker 1: it as all part of the whole sex drugs in 824 00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:32,399 Speaker 1: rock and roll territory, and it was really good fun, 825 00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:36,759 Speaker 1: you know. And I really liked Bill a lot, So 826 00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:42,040 Speaker 1: tell us about getting hooked up with the Commander Mike Chapman, right. 827 00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,080 Speaker 1: I really liked some of the things I've read that 828 00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:48,120 Speaker 1: you've written about him, by the way, and things where 829 00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:50,840 Speaker 1: I wanted to chime in because you were interested in 830 00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:55,000 Speaker 1: all that. Mike was again very much like Bill a 831 00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:56,960 Speaker 1: coin and as much as he was one of the 832 00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:00,840 Speaker 1: straightest looking guys, like he would always wear white polo 833 00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:05,160 Speaker 1: shirts and white tennis shorts and sneakers. He just looked 834 00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:08,560 Speaker 1: so straight, you know, and he is probably one to 835 00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:10,200 Speaker 1: this day, I could say one of the most rock 836 00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:13,920 Speaker 1: and roll guys I know, because it's a mindset, you know, 837 00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:18,120 Speaker 1: it's not about what you're wearing. And I was going 838 00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:20,239 Speaker 1: out with a guy named Gray who worked at the 839 00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:22,040 Speaker 1: Record Plan and he had done quite a lot of 840 00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:26,080 Speaker 1: records with Mike. He did the Blindee records, and he 841 00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:28,600 Speaker 1: did a lot of stuff before that, during this sort 842 00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:32,160 Speaker 1: of CBGB's period, and he told me that I should 843 00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:34,560 Speaker 1: check out Mike Chapman. And he said, you know what's 844 00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:38,719 Speaker 1: different about him is he's he's a really good songwriter. 845 00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:41,440 Speaker 1: So you don't just get someone that's pushing the faders. 846 00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:43,360 Speaker 1: You're going to get someone that really knows how to 847 00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:46,520 Speaker 1: write tunes and knows good tunes. And he said, And 848 00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:49,719 Speaker 1: I thought that was really important because I always thought 849 00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:51,440 Speaker 1: the only way you're gonna get on the radios is 850 00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:54,840 Speaker 1: to have like great songs, you know. You know, I 851 00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:56,840 Speaker 1: mean the word pop we all know comes from the 852 00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:00,120 Speaker 1: word popular, but that doesn't mean what it means now 853 00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:03,080 Speaker 1: in today's world that pop sometimes is looked down upon 854 00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:07,319 Speaker 1: as cheesy or lightweight. Pop. To me, back then just 855 00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:09,440 Speaker 1: meant it was popular because it was weird. It was 856 00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:12,440 Speaker 1: so so good that everybody wanted to hear it, you know, 857 00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:16,120 Speaker 1: So I sort of made up my business. While they 858 00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:18,239 Speaker 1: were trying to get Eddie, I was trying to get Mike. 859 00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:20,680 Speaker 1: And at this point I had discovered that I could 860 00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:24,319 Speaker 1: write songs. And I say this in the book. I 861 00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:26,920 Speaker 1: just started writing because they were writing and their songs 862 00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:29,680 Speaker 1: kind of were pretty mediocre and they weren't the kind 863 00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:31,440 Speaker 1: of songs that we're going to get us on the radio. 864 00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:33,799 Speaker 1: So I just started thinking, well, if they have the 865 00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:35,800 Speaker 1: confidence to do it, I'm going to have the confidence 866 00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:38,920 Speaker 1: to do And that's really how I became initially how 867 00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:41,600 Speaker 1: I started writing. And so by the time my friend 868 00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:44,040 Speaker 1: Gray had told me about Chapman, I thought, yeah, it's 869 00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:47,600 Speaker 1: very very important to have good songs, you know. So 870 00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:50,120 Speaker 1: I we didn't have the Internet in that day, so 871 00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:52,319 Speaker 1: and I kept saying to Bill, Bill, can you try 872 00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:54,480 Speaker 1: and get ahold of Mike Chapman? And Bill was busy 873 00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:56,960 Speaker 1: with Kiss. That was the other thing, like we always, 874 00:46:57,040 --> 00:47:00,040 Speaker 1: everybody else came second because Kiss was the moneymaker. So 875 00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:03,200 Speaker 1: we a lot of times we were left to our 876 00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:06,279 Speaker 1: own devices to figure these things out. And I think 877 00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:09,319 Speaker 1: maybe he thought it was premature anyway, But anyway, as 878 00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:11,880 Speaker 1: Seren deputy would have it. I met him at a 879 00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:14,800 Speaker 1: club at Tracks. I met him at the club Tracks 880 00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:17,840 Speaker 1: where we were the house band, and I was talking 881 00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:20,279 Speaker 1: to the Knack who he had just produced. He had 882 00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:26,319 Speaker 1: done my Sharona and and we were talking to him. 883 00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:30,160 Speaker 1: Someone had introduced us, and Mike walked over and they 884 00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:33,880 Speaker 1: introduced us and you know Australian slang kind of now. 885 00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:35,239 Speaker 1: I look back at and I thought he looked like 886 00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:40,759 Speaker 1: Paul Hogan from Crocodile Dundee. And we had a nice 887 00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:42,480 Speaker 1: enough chat. It was nothing or whatever, and then he 888 00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:44,520 Speaker 1: excused himself to go to the bar and get a 889 00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:49,520 Speaker 1: drink in and Prescott, the bass player, said, that's my chat. 890 00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:51,799 Speaker 1: He produced our record. He didn't even say Mike Chatman. 891 00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:53,960 Speaker 1: He said he was the one that produced our record. 892 00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:55,719 Speaker 1: And I said, was that Mike Chapman, Because when they 893 00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:58,520 Speaker 1: introduced me, they just said Mike, not knowing that I'm 894 00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:01,840 Speaker 1: looking everywhere for this guy. So the minute I found 895 00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:04,520 Speaker 1: out it was, they said, yeah, it's Mike Chapman. So 896 00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:07,480 Speaker 1: I went. I found Anton who was wandering that around 897 00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:09,759 Speaker 1: the club and I had to beat it out of 898 00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:11,839 Speaker 1: him to get the tape. We just done a bunch 899 00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:15,040 Speaker 1: of songs demos to try and get a record deal, 900 00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:16,919 Speaker 1: and he didn't want to give it to me because 901 00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:21,040 Speaker 1: he said it was my own copy. And I I 902 00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:23,440 Speaker 1: didn't beat it out of him, but close to it, 903 00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:25,759 Speaker 1: and he gave it to me, and I kissed him 904 00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:28,120 Speaker 1: on the cheek and ran away and gave it to 905 00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:31,279 Speaker 1: Mike and I said, I didn't know you were the 906 00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:35,759 Speaker 1: Mike Chapman. I'm so sorry because I've been looking for you. 907 00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:38,400 Speaker 1: I've been hunting you down and I need. I'm going 908 00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:41,279 Speaker 1: to court you because I want you to produce you. 909 00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:43,959 Speaker 1: I said all these things, like, there's a really long speech. 910 00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:48,239 Speaker 1: And finally, so did you listen to the tape? You know? 911 00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:51,480 Speaker 1: And he remember he stuck it in his pocket and 912 00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:54,080 Speaker 1: I'll never forget He pat it and he said, yep, 913 00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:56,680 Speaker 1: I'm gonna listen to this tape. He said, but I 914 00:48:56,760 --> 00:48:58,400 Speaker 1: have to tell you a bit of an asshole when 915 00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:01,120 Speaker 1: it comes to calling people back. He said, just keep 916 00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:02,960 Speaker 1: calling me. I'm at the record plan. I'm doing a 917 00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:06,640 Speaker 1: Blondie record. He was working on Auto American, which had 918 00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:09,719 Speaker 1: all those huge hits on it, like a rapture and 919 00:49:11,719 --> 00:49:15,799 Speaker 1: the tide is high tide kind of thing. Anyway, Yeah, 920 00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:19,400 Speaker 1: and so he would never take my call. And I 921 00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:21,120 Speaker 1: called him for two weeks straight and I could hear 922 00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:23,359 Speaker 1: in the background he's going, oh shit, it's said, Holly 923 00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:25,279 Speaker 1: night check again. I told her to call me, and 924 00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:28,239 Speaker 1: because I remember I heard Debbie once saying like, who 925 00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:31,120 Speaker 1: is she? Is that your girlfriend? Erstanding? You know, I 926 00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:34,000 Speaker 1: was like no, no, no, yeah. So um, he didn't 927 00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:37,360 Speaker 1: call me back. And I guess when you asked me 928 00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:40,040 Speaker 1: the question before, was I aggressive? I guess the answer 929 00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:43,360 Speaker 1: is yes. Um. See, to me, I'm normal, so I 930 00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:47,239 Speaker 1: don't think of it in terms of aggressive. But he 931 00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:49,400 Speaker 1: told me I could. He told me to be relentless. 932 00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:52,120 Speaker 1: So I took him up on it, and that's to me, 933 00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:54,719 Speaker 1: that's what it takes. You know, you just try and 934 00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:56,879 Speaker 1: hope that you're not being obnoxious. You know, there comes 935 00:49:56,880 --> 00:49:59,799 Speaker 1: a point there's a fine line between obnoxious and just 936 00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:05,799 Speaker 1: you know, um for two you know just I can't 937 00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:10,520 Speaker 1: think of the word right now, but tenacious. Yeah. Um. Anyway, 938 00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:13,560 Speaker 1: so he called me up and he said I'm leaving today, 939 00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:15,400 Speaker 1: I'm done with the record. I'm getting on the plane 940 00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:18,279 Speaker 1: going back home to LA And my heart sunk. I 941 00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:21,520 Speaker 1: thought he's not We lost that chance, and he goes no. 942 00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:23,200 Speaker 1: He says, I'm going to listen to your tape on 943 00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:24,879 Speaker 1: the plane. I have nowhere to go. I'm a cap 944 00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:27,800 Speaker 1: I'm a I'm not going in. I'm a captive listener. 945 00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:30,480 Speaker 1: So I will call you in a few weeks. And 946 00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:33,080 Speaker 1: I was like subscited and I hung up, and it's like, 947 00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:36,360 Speaker 1: oh God, I can't I can't wait to tell the 948 00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:39,600 Speaker 1: guys in the band. And eight hours later he called 949 00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:41,879 Speaker 1: me and he said, I listened to your tape three 950 00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:44,879 Speaker 1: times on the plane. He says, you guys are fabulous. 951 00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:49,680 Speaker 1: I have a record label and I want to sign you. Okay, 952 00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:54,560 Speaker 1: this is a complicated thing. Mike was the guy with 953 00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:59,319 Speaker 1: the O'china chap with his partner in uh Nikki Chin 954 00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:04,080 Speaker 1: in the UK, and he moves to LA and forms 955 00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:08,960 Speaker 1: Dreamland Records. Ultimately he's too busy to record your record. 956 00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:11,040 Speaker 1: You work with Peter Coleman. It has got a pretty 957 00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:14,239 Speaker 1: good track record himself, certainly, you know with Pat bennettar 958 00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:20,360 Speaker 1: on the first album, etc. In retrospect, was that a misstep? 959 00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:23,000 Speaker 1: Forget that it led to your songwriting career. Do you 960 00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:25,680 Speaker 1: think that Spider would have broken through if you signed 961 00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:33,080 Speaker 1: with a regular major record company. It's possible. I mean, 962 00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:38,360 Speaker 1: things happen there. You know, at any at any given point, 963 00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:40,399 Speaker 1: you can take this road to the left or this 964 00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:43,280 Speaker 1: row to the right, and it changes the trajector of everything. 965 00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:48,759 Speaker 1: So it's hard to say. Maybe if we'd have been 966 00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:54,319 Speaker 1: in a major label, we would have gone on to 967 00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:56,480 Speaker 1: make well, I mean, we made two records, but we 968 00:51:56,520 --> 00:51:58,799 Speaker 1: would have gone on to make a third record, and 969 00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:02,080 Speaker 1: it would have been in the director of a song 970 00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:05,640 Speaker 1: that I wrote on a second record with Mike Chapman, 971 00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:10,360 Speaker 1: which was better be Good to Me and became the 972 00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:13,720 Speaker 1: second single on Tina Turner's Private Dancer. But I'm getting 973 00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:20,879 Speaker 1: ahead of myself. I just really wanted I wanted to 974 00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:23,879 Speaker 1: work with Mike. I wasn't. I mean, it was nice 975 00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:25,360 Speaker 1: that he owned the label, and it's great because we 976 00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:27,480 Speaker 1: got a deal, and who knows if we would have 977 00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:30,400 Speaker 1: gotten another deal. You know, we had a couple of 978 00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:33,719 Speaker 1: labels that had passed on us, or we had one 979 00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:35,920 Speaker 1: I think it was Sony. They liked us a lot, 980 00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:37,520 Speaker 1: but they wanted to see us live and we were 981 00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:39,480 Speaker 1: getting ready to do that when this all happened, and 982 00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:42,160 Speaker 1: we just let's just go for this, you know, I 983 00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:46,120 Speaker 1: thought he was so cool and the kind of records 984 00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:48,080 Speaker 1: that he was doing were so artsy. You know. He 985 00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:52,000 Speaker 1: just had this reputation for doing things that were artsy 986 00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:55,840 Speaker 1: but commercial, and to do both is very hard. Okay. 987 00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:59,040 Speaker 1: It's one thing to be able to write something that's 988 00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:02,680 Speaker 1: super artsy, but people can't relate to or latch their 989 00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:06,239 Speaker 1: their hooks into. And it's very easy to write something 990 00:53:06,239 --> 00:53:09,759 Speaker 1: that's commercial fluff, which is an artsy But to meet 991 00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:12,640 Speaker 1: in the middle and do both, that's that's the that's 992 00:53:12,719 --> 00:53:17,560 Speaker 1: the key to writing for me, writing great songs, um, 993 00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:20,200 Speaker 1: so you know, I mean even when when I was 994 00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:22,800 Speaker 1: writing Loves a Battlefield with him, that to me is 995 00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:25,160 Speaker 1: a little bit more daring, an archie title. It's not 996 00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:29,200 Speaker 1: your normal title, like you know, like a lot of songs. 997 00:53:29,239 --> 00:53:31,919 Speaker 1: So I just I like that. I like the fact 998 00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:34,920 Speaker 1: that he was successful. I like the fact that he 999 00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:37,600 Speaker 1: lived in London and had done all the glamor stuff 1000 00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:42,319 Speaker 1: like you know, um, The Sweet and and um some 1001 00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:45,440 Speaker 1: of those other bands, even Susie Quatroo. I mean, there 1002 00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:48,239 Speaker 1: weren't a lot of women doing rock and so when 1003 00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:52,880 Speaker 1: when he said he loved the band, um, that meant 1004 00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:56,360 Speaker 1: a lot. And what meant even more was when I 1005 00:53:56,400 --> 00:53:59,439 Speaker 1: decided to leave the band, because what happened was, as 1006 00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:02,960 Speaker 1: we were doing a couple of records, we would never 1007 00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:05,600 Speaker 1: tell the label who wrote what. We would just turn 1008 00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:09,560 Speaker 1: in the songs because we wanted them to be, you know, unbiased. 1009 00:54:09,719 --> 00:54:12,120 Speaker 1: Just pick the songs you like, and they would always 1010 00:54:12,120 --> 00:54:14,360 Speaker 1: pick mine and they would always end up being the single. 1011 00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:18,759 Speaker 1: And that just created a lot of animosity in the band. 1012 00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:21,520 Speaker 1: And what's weird was it wasn't from the guys as 1013 00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:25,279 Speaker 1: much as much as it was from the singer, who 1014 00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:29,160 Speaker 1: was a girl like I was. More I was, my 1015 00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:31,360 Speaker 1: alliance was more with the guys, and it kind of 1016 00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:34,319 Speaker 1: shifted with her. But I'm not sure if some of 1017 00:54:34,360 --> 00:54:37,720 Speaker 1: the personal stuff that was going on probably had something 1018 00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:41,120 Speaker 1: to do with it too, although I never really talked 1019 00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:42,760 Speaker 1: to her about it. But I decided to leave the band, 1020 00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:49,680 Speaker 1: and Mike became my future. He became my mentor, you know, 1021 00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:52,800 Speaker 1: more than anybody that I can think of in my life, 1022 00:54:53,239 --> 00:54:55,920 Speaker 1: with all the people that I've written in my entire career, 1023 00:54:56,080 --> 00:54:59,040 Speaker 1: I think, to this day my favorite person to write 1024 00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:01,600 Speaker 1: with as Mike because he's the real thing, you know, 1025 00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:05,040 Speaker 1: and he's got that thing that I try to have 1026 00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:07,360 Speaker 1: as well, which I think I do, is to be 1027 00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:13,759 Speaker 1: artsy but also to be a commercially successful. Okay, to 1028 00:55:13,880 --> 00:55:20,000 Speaker 1: what degree every single act Sandy Cinnamon everything stiffed on 1029 00:55:20,239 --> 00:55:26,840 Speaker 1: his level? To what degree did that affect him? Well? 1030 00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:30,719 Speaker 1: He ended up breaking up the label and just sort 1031 00:55:30,719 --> 00:55:34,239 Speaker 1: of ending that whole relationship with Nikki Chen. I think 1032 00:55:34,239 --> 00:55:36,160 Speaker 1: there was a lot of stuff that was going on 1033 00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:39,920 Speaker 1: also that between them that he was just he just 1034 00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:42,640 Speaker 1: reached the end of his rope. I mean, you know, 1035 00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:46,400 Speaker 1: they had this famous Chinny Chap alliance, you know, the 1036 00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:49,279 Speaker 1: great songwriters, and you think, oh, it's like Lennon McCartney, right, 1037 00:55:49,320 --> 00:55:52,920 Speaker 1: But in Lennon McCartney's case, they actually both contributed and 1038 00:55:53,040 --> 00:55:56,880 Speaker 1: we're both geniuses. In Mike's case, Nikki was the business 1039 00:55:56,920 --> 00:55:59,640 Speaker 1: partner and Mike was the artist and the writer, and 1040 00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:03,240 Speaker 1: Nick he was he could call himself a writer. Anybody 1041 00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:06,440 Speaker 1: can call himself a writer. But I've written with a 1042 00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:08,520 Speaker 1: Nikki and I can tell you that he's not a writer, 1043 00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:12,920 Speaker 1: and Mike is. And Mike, for some stupid reason, just 1044 00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:17,279 Speaker 1: kept giving up income and credit credit, sorry, kept giving 1045 00:56:17,360 --> 00:56:21,000 Speaker 1: up credit to Nikki for songs that basically he sat 1046 00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:23,600 Speaker 1: there with a yellow pad. And I know this because 1047 00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:26,000 Speaker 1: Mike we've talked about it, and I said, are you 1048 00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:28,839 Speaker 1: okay with me talking about this? I mean, you know, 1049 00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:33,000 Speaker 1: he said, I want you to talk about it. I 1050 00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:35,120 Speaker 1: am so sick of it. I want people to know 1051 00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:37,920 Speaker 1: what really happened. But you know, all those great songs 1052 00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:41,200 Speaker 1: that came out of them and stuff, it was pretty 1053 00:56:41,239 --> 00:56:44,040 Speaker 1: much it was Mike and I write about it in 1054 00:56:44,040 --> 00:56:45,960 Speaker 1: the book because the first song I ever wrote with 1055 00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:48,800 Speaker 1: Mike was better be Good to Me, and that became 1056 00:56:48,960 --> 00:56:51,400 Speaker 1: our was going to be our second single on the 1057 00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:54,799 Speaker 1: Spider record, and a few weeks later after we had 1058 00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:58,680 Speaker 1: recorded it. Oh, by the way, he ended up producing that. See. 1059 00:56:58,680 --> 00:57:00,399 Speaker 1: That was part of my little scheme, as I thought, 1060 00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:02,240 Speaker 1: if I could get him to write with me, maybe 1061 00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:04,640 Speaker 1: I can just get him to produce it. And because 1062 00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:08,400 Speaker 1: he was such a I mean, he was a great producer, 1063 00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:13,480 Speaker 1: just got great performances out of the band, like so 1064 00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:15,839 Speaker 1: much more than Peter ever did. I mean, Peter was 1065 00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:19,600 Speaker 1: a sweetheart, but Mike was. Mike was like, you know, 1066 00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:22,840 Speaker 1: he was like a supernova. He really had that skill. 1067 00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:26,720 Speaker 1: And we didn't sound the same on that track. There's 1068 00:57:26,720 --> 00:57:29,200 Speaker 1: actually a version of it out there on YouTube where 1069 00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:31,000 Speaker 1: we played that song in Germany and you can air 1070 00:57:31,080 --> 00:57:33,960 Speaker 1: our version, and it's much more kind of druggy. It's 1071 00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:36,640 Speaker 1: like it's like Lou Reed's take a Walk on the 1072 00:57:36,640 --> 00:57:39,280 Speaker 1: wild Side, you know. And I love Tina Turner's version, 1073 00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:43,680 Speaker 1: but it's very very fast, upbeating and all that. But anyway, 1074 00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:47,360 Speaker 1: I walked into the office and Nicki's name was on 1075 00:57:47,560 --> 00:57:50,640 Speaker 1: the song on the lyrics, and I said to Mike, 1076 00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:54,800 Speaker 1: I think there's a mistake. Nicki's name is on the lyrics, 1077 00:57:55,760 --> 00:57:57,800 Speaker 1: and he said, yeah, I know, and I kind of 1078 00:57:57,840 --> 00:57:59,920 Speaker 1: looked at him. I was so young, and I was 1079 00:58:00,120 --> 00:58:02,479 Speaker 1: star struck at that point with Mike, just the fact 1080 00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:05,120 Speaker 1: that he was working with me, because everybody was always 1081 00:58:05,120 --> 00:58:08,200 Speaker 1: approaching him, wanting him to do their next record. You know. 1082 00:58:08,240 --> 00:58:10,640 Speaker 1: He just had number one after one after one, and 1083 00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:13,840 Speaker 1: so I was very careful. I didn't want to I 1084 00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:15,320 Speaker 1: didn't want to piss him off, and I didn't want 1085 00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:17,120 Speaker 1: him to think that I was being an ingrate. But 1086 00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:20,000 Speaker 1: I wasn't happy about it. And he said, I tell 1087 00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:22,120 Speaker 1: you what, he said, just agree to this. It'll never 1088 00:58:22,200 --> 00:58:26,120 Speaker 1: happen again. And I said, why's that and he said, well, 1089 00:58:26,160 --> 00:58:29,000 Speaker 1: because he's been doing this for years, and I'm done 1090 00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:32,600 Speaker 1: with that. We have a partnership agreement that whenever one 1091 00:58:32,640 --> 00:58:34,480 Speaker 1: of us writes, we both share in it. Of course, 1092 00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:40,360 Speaker 1: Nikki never really wrote anything significant without Mike or with Mike. Actually, 1093 00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:44,400 Speaker 1: he said, just agree to it and you'll never have 1094 00:58:44,440 --> 00:58:46,520 Speaker 1: to do it again. So I did so to this day, 1095 00:58:46,560 --> 00:58:49,480 Speaker 1: I just like I get you know, I get angry 1096 00:58:49,520 --> 00:58:51,200 Speaker 1: when I see his name there. And the thing is, 1097 00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:53,479 Speaker 1: I'm not the only one. I mean, it happens all 1098 00:58:53,520 --> 00:58:56,840 Speaker 1: the time to songwriters. You know, we're a publisher or 1099 00:58:56,920 --> 00:59:01,000 Speaker 1: not a publisher, a producer will just add their well, 1100 00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:03,120 Speaker 1: they won't add their name, but they'll give you an ultimatum. 1101 00:59:03,160 --> 00:59:06,360 Speaker 1: If you don't put me on as a songwriter, we're 1102 00:59:06,360 --> 00:59:11,720 Speaker 1: not cutting your song. So you know, after that happened, 1103 00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:14,640 Speaker 1: I just I found I would never agree to that again. 1104 00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:16,600 Speaker 1: I didn't care who it was. They were either going 1105 00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:18,600 Speaker 1: to write this song with me, but I wasn't gonna 1106 00:59:18,680 --> 00:59:20,760 Speaker 1: even if it was something like Madonna, I wasn't going 1107 00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:22,360 Speaker 1: to let them put their name there just so I 1108 00:59:22,360 --> 00:59:27,360 Speaker 1: could get the cut. Okay, where is Mike today? And 1109 00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:30,520 Speaker 1: you said he said you could tell his story? Where 1110 00:59:30,600 --> 00:59:32,800 Speaker 1: is he today? Is he working in how much contact 1111 00:59:32,920 --> 00:59:37,920 Speaker 1: you have with him. He lives in London. He is 1112 00:59:37,960 --> 00:59:43,800 Speaker 1: working sort of in the trendy Shoreditch sort of musicians. 1113 00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:46,560 Speaker 1: He's working with a lot of young people. I have 1114 00:59:46,600 --> 00:59:49,280 Speaker 1: no idea what he's put out. I mean, I don't really, 1115 00:59:50,200 --> 00:59:52,680 Speaker 1: I don't think he's I don't know. He's always busy 1116 00:59:52,760 --> 00:59:57,240 Speaker 1: working on something. But you know, I have to say, like, 1117 00:59:57,480 --> 00:59:59,840 Speaker 1: this happens to everybody. It happened to me, it hap 1118 01:00:00,120 --> 01:00:02,560 Speaker 1: to him, It's happened to you too, It's happened to everyone. 1119 01:00:02,600 --> 01:00:06,080 Speaker 1: You have some point in your career where it's just explosive, 1120 01:00:07,120 --> 01:00:09,320 Speaker 1: and then you're sort of established and you go on 1121 01:00:09,400 --> 01:00:13,240 Speaker 1: and you continue, but you're not always on the top forever, 1122 01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:15,280 Speaker 1: you know, even if your talent is still the same, 1123 01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:17,600 Speaker 1: even if you've gotten better or whatever. It's just sort 1124 01:00:17,600 --> 01:00:19,880 Speaker 1: of like a rite of passage that goes on to 1125 01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:23,400 Speaker 1: the next person or whatever. I mean, even groups like 1126 01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:27,160 Speaker 1: the Stones, it just happens, you know. So I think 1127 01:00:27,600 --> 01:00:30,640 Speaker 1: his last you know, the really big period was also 1128 01:00:30,760 --> 01:00:34,640 Speaker 1: during the eighties, you know. I mean I've since then, 1129 01:00:35,800 --> 01:00:37,840 Speaker 1: I've had a you know, I've had a lot of 1130 01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:42,760 Speaker 1: stuff happening. I've written songs for movies and TV themes 1131 01:00:42,760 --> 01:00:45,400 Speaker 1: and all that. But the eighties was really what this 1132 01:00:45,440 --> 01:00:48,480 Speaker 1: book is about. That it was just crazy, the amount 1133 01:00:48,560 --> 01:00:50,880 Speaker 1: of success and how well it was going and everything. 1134 01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:54,440 Speaker 1: And fortunately it was such a significant time period that is, 1135 01:00:55,480 --> 01:00:58,040 Speaker 1: it's bigger now than ever. I get more covers now 1136 01:00:58,120 --> 01:01:01,200 Speaker 1: on those songs than I did back then, you know. 1137 01:01:01,400 --> 01:01:03,680 Speaker 1: But going back to Mike, we're on very good terms. 1138 01:01:04,320 --> 01:01:07,080 Speaker 1: We go through a love hay period where sometimes I 1139 01:01:07,120 --> 01:01:09,560 Speaker 1: want to kill him, where sometimes he wants to kill me. 1140 01:01:10,240 --> 01:01:13,120 Speaker 1: He's still as rude as as ever when it comes 1141 01:01:13,120 --> 01:01:17,320 Speaker 1: to returning calls. He's kind of an asshole that way, 1142 01:01:17,360 --> 01:01:20,480 Speaker 1: probably by his own admission, and he just he disappears 1143 01:01:20,520 --> 01:01:23,240 Speaker 1: he's very eccentric. But then when we see each other, 1144 01:01:23,280 --> 01:01:26,600 Speaker 1: it's like it's like we never stopped talking, and it's 1145 01:01:26,720 --> 01:01:30,360 Speaker 1: there's there's a very strong bond and love there, you know. 1146 01:01:31,320 --> 01:01:33,600 Speaker 1: And it's interesting because in the beginning, like I said, 1147 01:01:33,640 --> 01:01:35,800 Speaker 1: I was so starstruck to be working with him that 1148 01:01:35,920 --> 01:01:39,040 Speaker 1: like I just sponged up stuff and I never talked 1149 01:01:39,040 --> 01:01:41,640 Speaker 1: back to him. And then as I started getting older 1150 01:01:42,880 --> 01:01:45,400 Speaker 1: and started having success without him and things like that, 1151 01:01:45,400 --> 01:01:47,320 Speaker 1: where he would challenge me on something, or I would 1152 01:01:47,360 --> 01:01:49,640 Speaker 1: end up calling him a prick, you know. I mean, 1153 01:01:49,720 --> 01:01:52,200 Speaker 1: it's really is that classic thing of you know, the 1154 01:01:52,240 --> 01:01:55,920 Speaker 1: mentor protege, and then the protege matures, and it can 1155 01:01:56,000 --> 01:01:59,720 Speaker 1: never be the same for the mentor. You can never 1156 01:01:59,800 --> 01:02:02,640 Speaker 1: catch up. The protege is never allowed to catch up 1157 01:02:02,680 --> 01:02:05,840 Speaker 1: with the mentor, even if that person has or has 1158 01:02:05,880 --> 01:02:10,480 Speaker 1: surpassed them. You know. But I think he's immensely talented, 1159 01:02:10,600 --> 01:02:16,040 Speaker 1: immensely eccentric, and he's still alive in kicking. That's all 1160 01:02:16,080 --> 01:02:25,360 Speaker 1: I pretty much I can say about him. Okay, let's 1161 01:02:25,360 --> 01:02:28,480 Speaker 1: talk about the process a little bit. You co wrote 1162 01:02:28,520 --> 01:02:32,520 Speaker 1: with Mike. Do you like to co wrote? Would rather 1163 01:02:32,640 --> 01:02:35,920 Speaker 1: do it yourself? Do you see it as a job 1164 01:02:36,280 --> 01:02:39,080 Speaker 1: I wake up, I got to put something down? Or 1165 01:02:39,120 --> 01:02:44,040 Speaker 1: do you wait for inspiration? Tell me about all that? Okay, yeah, 1166 01:02:44,080 --> 01:02:47,920 Speaker 1: those are good questions. I do like to collaborate. I 1167 01:02:47,960 --> 01:02:53,040 Speaker 1: always have if it is the right match. If it's 1168 01:02:53,120 --> 01:02:57,200 Speaker 1: not the right match, you really end up babysitting the writer. 1169 01:02:57,360 --> 01:03:00,360 Speaker 1: And I've gone through that where the record label has me, 1170 01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:05,160 Speaker 1: has sent me people to work with, and it's like 1171 01:03:05,240 --> 01:03:08,280 Speaker 1: songwriters one oh one, where they're sitting there on their 1172 01:03:08,280 --> 01:03:10,960 Speaker 1: phone and they're texting and I'm doing all the heavy 1173 01:03:11,000 --> 01:03:13,880 Speaker 1: lifting and going, do you like this? Is this like 1174 01:03:13,960 --> 01:03:16,640 Speaker 1: something you would do? I mean, I need some feedback here, 1175 01:03:16,680 --> 01:03:20,080 Speaker 1: you know, And what happens. It's kind of like, look, 1176 01:03:20,120 --> 01:03:22,400 Speaker 1: you could be the world's greatest tennis player, and if 1177 01:03:22,400 --> 01:03:24,440 Speaker 1: you're playing a game on someone that doesn't hit the 1178 01:03:24,480 --> 01:03:26,720 Speaker 1: balls back, you can play the worst game of your life. 1179 01:03:27,160 --> 01:03:29,120 Speaker 1: So if I don't like the person I'm running with, 1180 01:03:30,080 --> 01:03:32,840 Speaker 1: I'm too nice to say now that's got to go 1181 01:03:32,960 --> 01:03:35,400 Speaker 1: or whatever, I just can't do it. So I don't 1182 01:03:35,440 --> 01:03:39,360 Speaker 1: really like those kind of collaborations. I've only had maybe 1183 01:03:39,760 --> 01:03:43,080 Speaker 1: five people in my entire career that I've just absolutely 1184 01:03:43,120 --> 01:03:47,800 Speaker 1: loved working with and felt that's what collaboration is supposed 1185 01:03:47,840 --> 01:03:50,480 Speaker 1: to be about, Like you're both sort of supertools and 1186 01:03:50,520 --> 01:03:54,520 Speaker 1: you both bring something that maybe on your own you 1187 01:03:54,560 --> 01:03:57,680 Speaker 1: wouldn't create, or a lot of times I'll be running 1188 01:03:57,680 --> 01:03:59,200 Speaker 1: on my own and I'll think this is great, and 1189 01:03:59,200 --> 01:04:00,800 Speaker 1: then the more I play it, I start to think 1190 01:04:00,840 --> 01:04:04,520 Speaker 1: this sucks. But if you're collaborating with someone and they go, no, 1191 01:04:04,880 --> 01:04:07,120 Speaker 1: that part's the best part, Like, well, why don't we 1192 01:04:07,160 --> 01:04:09,640 Speaker 1: try this? And then they put it in a different 1193 01:04:10,240 --> 01:04:13,160 Speaker 1: slant and then all of a sudden, that's when collaboration 1194 01:04:13,320 --> 01:04:18,200 Speaker 1: is great, you know, But that doesn't happen that often. 1195 01:04:18,320 --> 01:04:20,800 Speaker 1: So I these days, I like to write a lot 1196 01:04:20,880 --> 01:04:23,200 Speaker 1: on my own because I'm older, and I just I 1197 01:04:23,240 --> 01:04:25,760 Speaker 1: guess I've been doing it long enough. I you know, 1198 01:04:26,960 --> 01:04:30,160 Speaker 1: I just have plenty to say and write about. But 1199 01:04:30,440 --> 01:04:34,160 Speaker 1: I don't like collaborating with a lot of people at 1200 01:04:34,160 --> 01:04:37,320 Speaker 1: the same time. The first time I sort of experienced 1201 01:04:37,360 --> 01:04:40,960 Speaker 1: that was in Nashville, and you know, of course, of course, 1202 01:04:41,040 --> 01:04:43,040 Speaker 1: now you know, you see a lot of a lot 1203 01:04:43,080 --> 01:04:46,160 Speaker 1: of people listed on one song or whatever. I'm I'm 1204 01:04:46,200 --> 01:04:48,680 Speaker 1: I don't write like that. I'm very old school, you know. 1205 01:04:49,880 --> 01:04:52,320 Speaker 1: Even though I know a lot about programming, and I 1206 01:04:52,400 --> 01:04:55,840 Speaker 1: do all my own pro tools stuff and programming, I 1207 01:04:56,000 --> 01:04:58,240 Speaker 1: saved that for after. I'm very old school where I 1208 01:04:58,280 --> 01:05:01,480 Speaker 1: like to sit down with a guitar or guitar or 1209 01:05:01,640 --> 01:05:07,560 Speaker 1: obviously keyboards and and write. And um, doing songs by 1210 01:05:07,600 --> 01:05:10,320 Speaker 1: committee just seems like a free ride to me. For 1211 01:05:10,320 --> 01:05:13,280 Speaker 1: for a lot of people that you know, they end 1212 01:05:13,360 --> 01:05:15,960 Speaker 1: up being called songwriters, but that I think their gigs 1213 01:05:15,960 --> 01:05:19,880 Speaker 1: are a little bit different, you know. Um, for instance, 1214 01:05:20,120 --> 01:05:25,720 Speaker 1: a programer, right a programmer. To me, that's like coming 1215 01:05:25,760 --> 01:05:28,680 Speaker 1: and playing guitar or whatever. That's your job. But if 1216 01:05:28,720 --> 01:05:30,480 Speaker 1: someone can sit down and play the song without your 1217 01:05:30,480 --> 01:05:33,280 Speaker 1: program drums or whatever, that's you didn't write the song. 1218 01:05:33,760 --> 01:05:36,840 Speaker 1: You know the song. It's like all the parts that 1219 01:05:37,000 --> 01:05:39,520 Speaker 1: if you miss them, if you take those out, that's 1220 01:05:39,520 --> 01:05:44,080 Speaker 1: what That's what to me. Songwriting is about um. But 1221 01:05:44,240 --> 01:05:46,320 Speaker 1: there are different levels of it and styles, and I 1222 01:05:46,400 --> 01:05:48,640 Speaker 1: acknowledge that. I mean, there are different art forms of 1223 01:05:49,200 --> 01:05:51,480 Speaker 1: the way people go about writing songs. But for me, 1224 01:05:51,600 --> 01:05:54,800 Speaker 1: and I'm not talking about anybody else, for me, it's 1225 01:05:54,920 --> 01:05:59,640 Speaker 1: old school, okay. You know in Nashville they literally have 1226 01:05:59,720 --> 01:06:03,960 Speaker 1: a ointments. Let's say you're going to collaborate. Do you 1227 01:06:04,000 --> 01:06:07,360 Speaker 1: want to bring something into the session? When the session 1228 01:06:07,520 --> 01:06:09,800 Speaker 1: is over, you want to work on it? How do 1229 01:06:09,840 --> 01:06:14,600 Speaker 1: you do it? I prefer to bring in something, And 1230 01:06:15,000 --> 01:06:16,880 Speaker 1: I talk about this in the book. When I was writing, 1231 01:06:16,920 --> 01:06:19,920 Speaker 1: either if I was asked to write with Heart for instance, 1232 01:06:20,200 --> 01:06:26,200 Speaker 1: which I was, or bon Jovi or you know, whoever 1233 01:06:26,240 --> 01:06:29,360 Speaker 1: I was working with. I liked Rod Stewart for instance. 1234 01:06:29,680 --> 01:06:31,920 Speaker 1: I like to walk in with something and so before 1235 01:06:31,960 --> 01:06:33,960 Speaker 1: I would get together, if I had the luxury that 1236 01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:37,520 Speaker 1: it wasn't the next day, I would just wipe everything 1237 01:06:37,560 --> 01:06:39,560 Speaker 1: off on my schedule and to sit down and jam 1238 01:06:39,560 --> 01:06:41,320 Speaker 1: in the studio alone so that I could walk in 1239 01:06:41,600 --> 01:06:43,200 Speaker 1: and this is going to date me, that I would 1240 01:06:43,240 --> 01:06:47,240 Speaker 1: walk in with a cassette and a walkman and start 1241 01:06:47,280 --> 01:06:50,520 Speaker 1: to play something. So the same thing in Nashville. I 1242 01:06:50,600 --> 01:06:53,919 Speaker 1: was actually flown down by Winona Judd to write with her, 1243 01:06:54,360 --> 01:06:56,800 Speaker 1: and I remember looking online and realizing that she wasn't 1244 01:06:56,800 --> 01:07:00,800 Speaker 1: a songwriter, and so I thought I had better go 1245 01:07:00,960 --> 01:07:02,960 Speaker 1: prepared with like a whole bunch of ideas. So I 1246 01:07:03,000 --> 01:07:04,720 Speaker 1: remember I went to I was I had to go 1247 01:07:05,240 --> 01:07:07,919 Speaker 1: to Hawaii. I was vacationing, and I had to take 1248 01:07:07,960 --> 01:07:10,919 Speaker 1: my kids because school was out and it was only 1249 01:07:10,960 --> 01:07:12,280 Speaker 1: a time to do it. So I brought a guitar 1250 01:07:12,320 --> 01:07:14,760 Speaker 1: with man. I just recorded all the starts of these 1251 01:07:14,800 --> 01:07:18,600 Speaker 1: ideas so that when I went down to Nashville, I 1252 01:07:18,640 --> 01:07:20,880 Speaker 1: would have something to sort of bring to the party. 1253 01:07:21,280 --> 01:07:24,520 Speaker 1: I don't really like sort of being I like being 1254 01:07:24,520 --> 01:07:27,640 Speaker 1: on the front end, not the back end, and I've 1255 01:07:27,640 --> 01:07:31,520 Speaker 1: done that and I don't really like it. Okay, tell 1256 01:07:31,600 --> 01:07:33,960 Speaker 1: us the story of writing better be good to me 1257 01:07:34,400 --> 01:07:41,000 Speaker 1: with Mike and how it's ultimately recorded by Tina. I 1258 01:07:41,040 --> 01:07:43,760 Speaker 1: walked in. I had an idea for a song. I 1259 01:07:44,560 --> 01:07:47,439 Speaker 1: had something like be good to Me? And he said, well, 1260 01:07:47,440 --> 01:07:49,720 Speaker 1: why don't we make it a little bit more, you know, 1261 01:07:49,760 --> 01:07:52,120 Speaker 1: a little bit more empowering, like better be good to me? 1262 01:07:52,160 --> 01:07:53,800 Speaker 1: And I went, oh, I like that, you know. And 1263 01:07:53,800 --> 01:07:57,400 Speaker 1: then as Mike and I were wont to do, we 1264 01:07:57,440 --> 01:07:59,560 Speaker 1: would just start jamming, like he would pick up a 1265 01:07:59,600 --> 01:08:02,840 Speaker 1: guitar and I would play keywords, but usually I'd be 1266 01:08:02,840 --> 01:08:07,160 Speaker 1: playing a bassline or something, not because I can't play 1267 01:08:07,200 --> 01:08:10,200 Speaker 1: all that stuff, but to me, you know, basslines are 1268 01:08:10,240 --> 01:08:13,960 Speaker 1: so important, and that's sort of I've learned since then, 1269 01:08:14,000 --> 01:08:15,880 Speaker 1: that's sort of my forte. I start a lot of 1270 01:08:15,880 --> 01:08:19,519 Speaker 1: times with a cool bassline. And we wrote that song 1271 01:08:19,560 --> 01:08:21,559 Speaker 1: in one day, and then we went and cut it 1272 01:08:21,600 --> 01:08:23,439 Speaker 1: a few days later, and then by the time I 1273 01:08:23,560 --> 01:08:27,400 Speaker 1: left Spider, there's a whole I don't know if you 1274 01:08:27,439 --> 01:08:29,719 Speaker 1: want to hear the whole story of why didn't get released, 1275 01:08:29,720 --> 01:08:33,000 Speaker 1: but the music business, which you can read in the book, 1276 01:08:33,000 --> 01:08:35,599 Speaker 1: but the music business went in the crapper when they 1277 01:08:35,640 --> 01:08:38,720 Speaker 1: had that whole payola scheme got exposed and all that. 1278 01:08:38,960 --> 01:08:41,639 Speaker 1: So everybody that put out a record during that time, 1279 01:08:42,360 --> 01:08:45,080 Speaker 1: their record didn't do anything unless they were so big 1280 01:08:45,160 --> 01:08:48,080 Speaker 1: like Zappelin or something, didn't matter. They didn't need the 1281 01:08:48,160 --> 01:08:51,200 Speaker 1: radio play. But for a new band, you had to 1282 01:08:51,240 --> 01:08:54,400 Speaker 1: have the radio play to get you heard. That was 1283 01:08:54,439 --> 01:08:56,320 Speaker 1: I guess, you know, it's funny. It's like, I think 1284 01:08:56,400 --> 01:08:59,360 Speaker 1: that's sort of what our social media was back then, 1285 01:08:59,560 --> 01:09:02,200 Speaker 1: was getting a single on the radio. That's how you 1286 01:09:02,240 --> 01:09:07,640 Speaker 1: advertise the record. Very different now, but so, I don't know. 1287 01:09:07,680 --> 01:09:09,639 Speaker 1: It was about a year later, and at this point 1288 01:09:09,680 --> 01:09:12,680 Speaker 1: I had already written I think it'd already. It was 1289 01:09:12,880 --> 01:09:16,040 Speaker 1: right around the same time that I had been working 1290 01:09:16,080 --> 01:09:18,960 Speaker 1: with Mike on Love as the Battlefield and Tina Turner 1291 01:09:19,320 --> 01:09:22,840 Speaker 1: was doing Private Dancer, and someone the publishers just played 1292 01:09:22,880 --> 01:09:25,519 Speaker 1: the song to someone that brought it into one of 1293 01:09:25,520 --> 01:09:27,680 Speaker 1: those you know, A and R meetings where they all 1294 01:09:27,720 --> 01:09:30,160 Speaker 1: sit around and they play back all these different songs. 1295 01:09:30,200 --> 01:09:34,880 Speaker 1: And Tina was there and I wasn't in the room. 1296 01:09:34,920 --> 01:09:36,600 Speaker 1: But the urban legend is is that she got up 1297 01:09:36,640 --> 01:09:39,599 Speaker 1: and started like doing her thing, walking around the room 1298 01:09:39,640 --> 01:09:42,439 Speaker 1: and doing her little stomping those little things she does 1299 01:09:42,479 --> 01:09:45,040 Speaker 1: with her legs, and saying, this is perfect, this is 1300 01:09:45,080 --> 01:09:48,080 Speaker 1: exactly what I want to say, because she had just left, 1301 01:09:48,400 --> 01:09:51,000 Speaker 1: well not just but a few years before, she had 1302 01:09:51,040 --> 01:09:56,200 Speaker 1: finally gotten up the nerve to leave Ike. And before 1303 01:09:56,240 --> 01:10:01,400 Speaker 1: this record, you know, she was playing hotels and Vegas things. 1304 01:10:01,960 --> 01:10:05,759 Speaker 1: You know, nobody had any idea that what was about 1305 01:10:05,760 --> 01:10:08,360 Speaker 1: to happen to her. And Better Be Good to Me 1306 01:10:08,439 --> 01:10:12,400 Speaker 1: was the second single, so that was amazing. That put 1307 01:10:12,439 --> 01:10:15,639 Speaker 1: me on the map right around the same time as 1308 01:10:15,960 --> 01:10:18,720 Speaker 1: Love's Battlefield was becoming a hit. So I had two 1309 01:10:18,800 --> 01:10:24,760 Speaker 1: hits at once, and that that's I didn't meet her 1310 01:10:24,840 --> 01:10:28,280 Speaker 1: or anything. I mean, you don't always meet You usually 1311 01:10:28,320 --> 01:10:31,080 Speaker 1: don't meet the artists when you're When you write a 1312 01:10:31,120 --> 01:10:33,640 Speaker 1: song and you hand it over that set, it's like 1313 01:10:33,720 --> 01:10:35,720 Speaker 1: putting your kid up for adoption. As I said in 1314 01:10:35,760 --> 01:10:38,880 Speaker 1: the book, it's like you just hope that they don't 1315 01:10:38,920 --> 01:10:46,360 Speaker 1: fuck the kid up, you know. And you know, that's 1316 01:10:46,400 --> 01:10:49,920 Speaker 1: really kind of when my career started happening. When I 1317 01:10:49,920 --> 01:10:52,760 Speaker 1: hadn't mentioned this before, but when I left Spider, I 1318 01:10:52,800 --> 01:10:54,360 Speaker 1: went to Mike and I said, what should I do? 1319 01:10:54,360 --> 01:10:55,840 Speaker 1: I don't want to be in this band anymore. And 1320 01:10:55,880 --> 01:10:57,559 Speaker 1: I was really afraid of what he was going to say, 1321 01:10:57,600 --> 01:10:59,680 Speaker 1: because I thought he'd tried to assume me because they 1322 01:10:59,760 --> 01:11:02,120 Speaker 1: put all this money in and I signed a contract 1323 01:11:02,120 --> 01:11:06,400 Speaker 1: and he said leave. He said, move out to California. 1324 01:11:06,600 --> 01:11:10,439 Speaker 1: Come out and we'll write together. If we're not writing together, 1325 01:11:11,160 --> 01:11:15,120 Speaker 1: I will turn you on to writers that you should 1326 01:11:15,120 --> 01:11:17,320 Speaker 1: be working with. I'll sign you to a new publishing deal. 1327 01:11:17,720 --> 01:11:20,240 Speaker 1: If I have a record and they need a song, 1328 01:11:20,360 --> 01:11:23,120 Speaker 1: he said, of course, we wanted to come from their camp, 1329 01:11:23,120 --> 01:11:25,479 Speaker 1: but if they can't, I'll go and ask you to 1330 01:11:25,479 --> 01:11:28,519 Speaker 1: write them a song, which he did that also, he 1331 01:11:28,560 --> 01:11:30,920 Speaker 1: did that with Patti Smithe when I wrote The Warrior. 1332 01:11:31,680 --> 01:11:35,040 Speaker 1: So I packed up my stuff and my cat and 1333 01:11:35,160 --> 01:11:37,720 Speaker 1: I got on a plane and I moved to California. 1334 01:11:37,760 --> 01:11:40,719 Speaker 1: And it's really funny because I kind of describe all 1335 01:11:40,800 --> 01:11:43,760 Speaker 1: that time before that as film noir, you know, New 1336 01:11:43,840 --> 01:11:49,479 Speaker 1: York City, gritty, cool edgy, dark. Get to California, and 1337 01:11:49,520 --> 01:11:52,879 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, it's like Fuji color cotton candy. 1338 01:11:53,080 --> 01:11:57,000 Speaker 1: You know, this completely different. I mean, if people think 1339 01:11:57,040 --> 01:11:58,960 Speaker 1: that they know how to party in New York, forget it, 1340 01:11:59,040 --> 01:12:02,760 Speaker 1: because at least back then in the eighties, it was ridiculous. 1341 01:12:03,400 --> 01:12:06,680 Speaker 1: And so then I started to talk about those escapades 1342 01:12:06,720 --> 01:12:10,000 Speaker 1: and things, and you could just sort of like a flower. 1343 01:12:10,040 --> 01:12:12,040 Speaker 1: You could see it unfolding as I started to have 1344 01:12:12,360 --> 01:12:16,320 Speaker 1: more hits and things like that. And for a long time, 1345 01:12:16,360 --> 01:12:18,040 Speaker 1: Mike was a big part of that. I mean, some 1346 01:12:18,120 --> 01:12:21,000 Speaker 1: of the best songs I've written and biggest songs I've 1347 01:12:21,000 --> 01:12:24,200 Speaker 1: written or with him. But I also had a lot 1348 01:12:24,200 --> 01:12:27,439 Speaker 1: of success without him, you know, working with when I 1349 01:12:27,439 --> 01:12:32,160 Speaker 1: worked with Aero Smith, when I worked with Hart. But 1350 01:12:33,840 --> 01:12:37,200 Speaker 1: you know, I'm probably getting ahead of myself. Okay, you 1351 01:12:37,280 --> 01:12:39,880 Speaker 1: do love as a battlefield. You write that with Mike, 1352 01:12:39,960 --> 01:12:43,639 Speaker 1: and in the book you say the ultimate version produced 1353 01:12:43,640 --> 01:12:47,880 Speaker 1: by her husband is completely different from how you envisioned it, 1354 01:12:48,160 --> 01:12:53,040 Speaker 1: and you're not happy. Yeah. Well, when we first got it, 1355 01:12:53,520 --> 01:12:58,400 Speaker 1: we just looked at each other, like, what the fuck 1356 01:12:58,560 --> 01:13:02,160 Speaker 1: happened to our song. We didn't have a big, fancy demo, 1357 01:13:02,400 --> 01:13:05,920 Speaker 1: which was nice. We just put you know, we put 1358 01:13:06,680 --> 01:13:11,000 Speaker 1: the whole essence of that song out there, and Neil 1359 01:13:11,080 --> 01:13:13,040 Speaker 1: decided that he was just going to put his stamp 1360 01:13:13,120 --> 01:13:16,040 Speaker 1: on it and change it. So we sent them like 1361 01:13:16,080 --> 01:13:18,360 Speaker 1: a real I say that book, like a real meat 1362 01:13:18,439 --> 01:13:22,800 Speaker 1: in potatoes, a Game of Thrones kind of anthem for 1363 01:13:22,880 --> 01:13:25,920 Speaker 1: the masses, and they sent us back a dance track 1364 01:13:27,040 --> 01:13:31,479 Speaker 1: with all these crazy synthesizers in it and everything, and 1365 01:13:31,560 --> 01:13:34,519 Speaker 1: Neil likes to say that we sent them a ballot. 1366 01:13:34,560 --> 01:13:37,920 Speaker 1: It wasn't a demo. It was a typical type of 1367 01:13:38,080 --> 01:13:39,680 Speaker 1: tempo that I would write, which is sort of like 1368 01:13:39,680 --> 01:13:44,599 Speaker 1: an eighth note mid tempo rocker, you know. But her 1369 01:13:44,680 --> 01:13:50,040 Speaker 1: vocal was sensational, and as time went on we learned 1370 01:13:50,080 --> 01:13:51,439 Speaker 1: to love it. As it went up the charts, that 1371 01:13:51,479 --> 01:13:54,360 Speaker 1: he left it more and more, you know. But there 1372 01:13:54,360 --> 01:13:57,559 Speaker 1: have been all kinds of versions of it that are 1373 01:13:57,720 --> 01:14:00,640 Speaker 1: actually closer to what we did. You know. Also, I 1374 01:14:00,680 --> 01:14:05,040 Speaker 1: did an audio book and I narrated it. It's out 1375 01:14:05,080 --> 01:14:09,240 Speaker 1: now too, and it has demos of some of those songs. 1376 01:14:09,240 --> 01:14:11,760 Speaker 1: So I have the demo to Love as a Battlefield, 1377 01:14:11,840 --> 01:14:14,720 Speaker 1: or the demo to the Bass and the Warrior with 1378 01:14:14,840 --> 01:14:17,040 Speaker 1: Nick Gilder singing on it. And I've never played them 1379 01:14:17,040 --> 01:14:20,200 Speaker 1: to anyone. So what I like about it is when 1380 01:14:20,240 --> 01:14:22,639 Speaker 1: you hear those demos, you can go, yeah, it's all there, 1381 01:14:22,920 --> 01:14:25,200 Speaker 1: It's all there, you know, maybe the tempo is different, 1382 01:14:25,720 --> 01:14:28,439 Speaker 1: bells and whistles or whatever. I would have to say that, 1383 01:14:30,400 --> 01:14:32,439 Speaker 1: out of all the songs that we did, I think his, 1384 01:14:33,200 --> 01:14:36,400 Speaker 1: you know, their interpretation was more of a departure than 1385 01:14:36,640 --> 01:14:39,120 Speaker 1: other songs that I've had out there, So I kind 1386 01:14:39,120 --> 01:14:43,040 Speaker 1: of go into it in the book, you know. Okay, 1387 01:14:43,520 --> 01:14:46,639 Speaker 1: So tell us about The Warrior and how it ends 1388 01:14:46,680 --> 01:14:51,719 Speaker 1: up getting to Patty smythe Mike was doing a record 1389 01:14:51,760 --> 01:14:55,639 Speaker 1: with Patty and Scandal, and he felt that they didn't 1390 01:14:55,680 --> 01:15:00,640 Speaker 1: have enough singles, or any singles. Maybe they had. They 1391 01:15:00,840 --> 01:15:03,160 Speaker 1: had some good songs though they thought that I liked, 1392 01:15:03,560 --> 01:15:05,080 Speaker 1: but they didn't have the one that was really going 1393 01:15:05,120 --> 01:15:08,920 Speaker 1: to put them on the map. So he said, I 1394 01:15:08,960 --> 01:15:10,879 Speaker 1: want you to write a song for them on producing 1395 01:15:10,880 --> 01:15:13,479 Speaker 1: the record, and they need something I don't have the time. 1396 01:15:13,680 --> 01:15:16,400 Speaker 1: He said, I'm going to introduce you to Nick Gilder, 1397 01:15:16,960 --> 01:15:18,880 Speaker 1: and he had had a number one hit with Nick 1398 01:15:19,720 --> 01:15:23,320 Speaker 1: with Hot Child in the City, and I loved his 1399 01:15:23,400 --> 01:15:26,200 Speaker 1: quirkiness is his voice. You know, I thought for the 1400 01:15:26,200 --> 01:15:29,400 Speaker 1: longest time Nick Gilder was a woman because of the voice, 1401 01:15:29,439 --> 01:15:31,280 Speaker 1: you know, it was so high and everything. Anyway, we met, 1402 01:15:31,960 --> 01:15:35,000 Speaker 1: we talked about the fact I played him some stuff 1403 01:15:35,000 --> 01:15:38,759 Speaker 1: that that Patty had done, like Goodbye to You, and 1404 01:15:39,320 --> 01:15:42,479 Speaker 1: that was another song they had that I liked m 1405 01:15:42,840 --> 01:15:45,479 Speaker 1: and so we wrote. We ended up writing The Warrior, 1406 01:15:45,560 --> 01:15:48,840 Speaker 1: but then I sent it to I sent it to 1407 01:15:48,920 --> 01:15:50,920 Speaker 1: Mike and maybe he was in a shitty mood that 1408 01:15:51,000 --> 01:15:54,920 Speaker 1: day or something, but he didn't really respond. And it's 1409 01:15:54,960 --> 01:15:57,240 Speaker 1: sort of like going to the oracle. It's like when 1410 01:15:57,280 --> 01:15:59,400 Speaker 1: he loved something, you know, i'd be walking on air, 1411 01:15:59,479 --> 01:16:01,640 Speaker 1: and if he didn't like something, I'd be like, like 1412 01:16:01,880 --> 01:16:04,320 Speaker 1: so depressed, like I wanted to kill myself, you know, 1413 01:16:05,160 --> 01:16:07,920 Speaker 1: And I thought, but this is a really good song, 1414 01:16:08,040 --> 01:16:10,040 Speaker 1: Like how can you not hear this? Like what's wrong 1415 01:16:10,080 --> 01:16:13,080 Speaker 1: with him? But I didn't really say anything or whatever. 1416 01:16:13,320 --> 01:16:16,000 Speaker 1: In the meantime, Nick was really happy that he didn't 1417 01:16:16,080 --> 01:16:18,519 Speaker 1: love it, because Nick wanted to record it. He wanted 1418 01:16:18,560 --> 01:16:23,680 Speaker 1: to to be a single for him. And then like 1419 01:16:23,720 --> 01:16:26,360 Speaker 1: a day or so later, maybe a week, I don't know, 1420 01:16:26,640 --> 01:16:28,880 Speaker 1: he might called up. He said, you know that song, 1421 01:16:29,040 --> 01:16:31,280 Speaker 1: that that warrior song that you sent me? He said, 1422 01:16:31,280 --> 01:16:33,000 Speaker 1: I can't find He said, could you send me a 1423 01:16:33,000 --> 01:16:37,599 Speaker 1: copy of it? And I thought, I said sure, I'll 1424 01:16:37,720 --> 01:16:40,479 Speaker 1: drop it off, and I remember hanging up going you know, 1425 01:16:40,600 --> 01:16:44,080 Speaker 1: he's been he's been walking around singing that motherfucking song 1426 01:16:44,160 --> 01:16:47,679 Speaker 1: for the last few days and realizes it's just that good. 1427 01:16:47,760 --> 01:16:51,160 Speaker 1: So and that's exactly what happened, and so he said, 1428 01:16:51,280 --> 01:16:53,120 Speaker 1: he calls me up after you least, because this song 1429 01:16:53,200 --> 01:16:55,479 Speaker 1: is a fucking hit. We're cutting it. It's going to 1430 01:16:55,560 --> 01:16:59,840 Speaker 1: be their single. And so he went in the studio 1431 01:17:00,000 --> 01:17:02,280 Speaker 1: with him. In the meantime, Nick said I don't I 1432 01:17:02,320 --> 01:17:05,240 Speaker 1: don't want her to cut it, and and Mike had 1433 01:17:05,280 --> 01:17:07,160 Speaker 1: to get like really tough on him and say, look, 1434 01:17:07,200 --> 01:17:10,960 Speaker 1: I'm the publisher of Lise of Holly's Share, and I 1435 01:17:11,040 --> 01:17:13,760 Speaker 1: won't let you release the song. I will not. This 1436 01:17:13,840 --> 01:17:17,120 Speaker 1: is because there's a there's a rule that says, or 1437 01:17:17,160 --> 01:17:21,240 Speaker 1: a law that says, when you write a song, you 1438 01:17:21,280 --> 01:17:23,920 Speaker 1: get to say who cuts it as the songwriter the 1439 01:17:23,960 --> 01:17:26,639 Speaker 1: first time. Once it's out there, anybody can cut it 1440 01:17:26,920 --> 01:17:28,519 Speaker 1: as long as they pay you, you know, and they 1441 01:17:28,520 --> 01:17:30,400 Speaker 1: have to license it and they go through something like 1442 01:17:30,439 --> 01:17:35,120 Speaker 1: a Harry Fox agency. But and the reason that's very 1443 01:17:35,160 --> 01:17:37,920 Speaker 1: relevant to today is because so many times I don't 1444 01:17:37,920 --> 01:17:39,960 Speaker 1: even know that the song's getting cut, and then I 1445 01:17:40,040 --> 01:17:42,679 Speaker 1: find out by going to a movie or watching a 1446 01:17:42,720 --> 01:17:46,720 Speaker 1: TV show, or someone texting me and saying, oh, I 1447 01:17:46,800 --> 01:17:48,720 Speaker 1: love that song. It's the theme song, you know that 1448 01:17:48,800 --> 01:17:52,280 Speaker 1: one on on Glee or something. This happens all the time. 1449 01:17:53,479 --> 01:17:57,160 Speaker 1: It even happened when when when Biden did the victory speech. 1450 01:17:57,320 --> 01:17:59,200 Speaker 1: I didn't know until I was watching them accept the 1451 01:17:59,240 --> 01:18:01,960 Speaker 1: speech and the best came came on. But again I'm 1452 01:18:01,960 --> 01:18:05,479 Speaker 1: getting ahead of myself. I'm very add that way. Going 1453 01:18:05,520 --> 01:18:10,000 Speaker 1: back to what you were asking, Um, Mike just got 1454 01:18:10,000 --> 01:18:13,000 Speaker 1: really tough with him and so Nikki had to back 1455 01:18:13,040 --> 01:18:16,080 Speaker 1: off and he did. I think he's really happy now that. 1456 01:18:16,600 --> 01:18:19,240 Speaker 1: I think it's the biggest aside from Hot Chama City, 1457 01:18:19,320 --> 01:18:23,200 Speaker 1: probably bigger. It's funny because I just spoke to Patty 1458 01:18:23,360 --> 01:18:28,960 Speaker 1: yesterday because we've we've stayed friends and stuff, and we 1459 01:18:28,960 --> 01:18:31,200 Speaker 1: were just talking about it because the Warrior is coming 1460 01:18:31,240 --> 01:18:33,840 Speaker 1: out in two really big movies. Um. I think one 1461 01:18:33,960 --> 01:18:39,600 Speaker 1: is that movie eighty for Brady. It's in that that's out, Yeah, 1462 01:18:39,640 --> 01:18:42,479 Speaker 1: that's out. Yeah. And then what's coming out is Cocaine Bear, 1463 01:18:42,640 --> 01:18:47,880 Speaker 1: So the Warrior is in that movie as well. So yeah, 1464 01:18:47,880 --> 01:18:50,479 Speaker 1: the licensing is just crazy. And she was asking me 1465 01:18:50,560 --> 01:18:56,800 Speaker 1: questions about the licensing is just Um, it's the gift 1466 01:18:56,800 --> 01:19:00,160 Speaker 1: that keeps on giving. Now, of course you've been in 1467 01:19:00,160 --> 01:19:03,599 Speaker 1: which anybody who knows the song would remember that video. 1468 01:19:04,360 --> 01:19:09,080 Speaker 1: That video help her hurt the track. I don't think 1469 01:19:09,080 --> 01:19:14,719 Speaker 1: it helped well. I thought that it was so sort 1470 01:19:14,760 --> 01:19:17,760 Speaker 1: of stupid and jaw dropping that it almost worked on 1471 01:19:17,800 --> 01:19:21,360 Speaker 1: that level. It's like, can you watch can you believe this? Right? 1472 01:19:21,439 --> 01:19:23,200 Speaker 1: And let me tell you that what you just said 1473 01:19:23,280 --> 01:19:27,439 Speaker 1: is the gospel for so many videos during that period 1474 01:19:27,439 --> 01:19:30,280 Speaker 1: of the MTV. I mean some of those things like Obsession, 1475 01:19:30,320 --> 01:19:33,760 Speaker 1: for instance, when I saw the video to Obsessions Obsession, 1476 01:19:33,920 --> 01:19:36,920 Speaker 1: and you see these guys walking around in togas serving 1477 01:19:37,120 --> 01:19:39,840 Speaker 1: or dirves, You're thinking, like, what has that got to 1478 01:19:39,840 --> 01:19:41,720 Speaker 1: do with the song? But did we really care? No? 1479 01:19:42,520 --> 01:19:44,360 Speaker 1: You know some of them. I mean, the Love is 1480 01:19:44,400 --> 01:19:47,160 Speaker 1: a Battlefield one was also a shocker for me. But 1481 01:19:47,439 --> 01:19:49,680 Speaker 1: I thought Patty was really cool looking, and I just 1482 01:19:49,720 --> 01:19:52,559 Speaker 1: pictured her as being like a rock check and somehow 1483 01:19:52,640 --> 01:19:56,920 Speaker 1: the megap artists, I guess, she wanted her to look 1484 01:19:56,920 --> 01:19:59,640 Speaker 1: like a ninja, so she it looked like she had 1485 01:19:59,640 --> 01:20:02,080 Speaker 1: been ruck across the face with a lightning bolt, if 1486 01:20:02,080 --> 01:20:04,280 Speaker 1: you remember that, And then they had her hair swept 1487 01:20:04,360 --> 01:20:07,280 Speaker 1: up in like a bride of Frankenstein kind of do. 1488 01:20:07,560 --> 01:20:10,720 Speaker 1: And the whole video was just ridiculous. And I never 1489 01:20:10,720 --> 01:20:13,479 Speaker 1: really talked to Patty about it. And then I saw 1490 01:20:13,520 --> 01:20:15,519 Speaker 1: her when I when I got inducted in the Songwriting 1491 01:20:15,560 --> 01:20:17,800 Speaker 1: Hall of Fame. She inducted me. So she came and 1492 01:20:17,880 --> 01:20:21,200 Speaker 1: she sung the Warrior. So we got together before that 1493 01:20:21,360 --> 01:20:23,960 Speaker 1: just to catch up, and we're sitting in this diner 1494 01:20:24,000 --> 01:20:26,800 Speaker 1: and I I just kind of summoned the courage and 1495 01:20:26,840 --> 01:20:30,200 Speaker 1: I said, tell me something, what did you think of 1496 01:20:30,240 --> 01:20:33,960 Speaker 1: the video to the Warrior? She probably sprayed her soda 1497 01:20:34,080 --> 01:20:37,400 Speaker 1: like she goes, I hated it, you know, she's I 1498 01:20:37,439 --> 01:20:40,560 Speaker 1: don't know what the fuck they were thinking. It was ridiculous, 1499 01:20:40,840 --> 01:20:44,000 Speaker 1: you know. Um. But then at the same time, you 1500 01:20:44,000 --> 01:20:46,960 Speaker 1: look back, it's like it's a part of that time 1501 01:20:47,000 --> 01:20:50,439 Speaker 1: period that you know, it's funny like at the time 1502 01:20:50,439 --> 01:20:52,880 Speaker 1: you see and you go, oh, god like, but then 1503 01:20:52,920 --> 01:20:54,320 Speaker 1: you look back at it now and it's sort of 1504 01:20:54,400 --> 01:20:56,800 Speaker 1: like there was no time period like that. You know, 1505 01:20:56,840 --> 01:20:59,679 Speaker 1: you got cow's walking through the room like well, PAMs 1506 01:20:59,720 --> 01:21:10,320 Speaker 1: are forming and you know, okay, let's stay with the 1507 01:21:10,360 --> 01:21:15,879 Speaker 1: concept of hits. Professionals know you can't write an eleven 1508 01:21:15,960 --> 01:21:20,599 Speaker 1: every day. My experience has been if you create eleven, 1509 01:21:20,720 --> 01:21:24,040 Speaker 1: you know, then there are people like William Goldman said, 1510 01:21:24,040 --> 01:21:30,919 Speaker 1: no one knows anything. What's your experience? Can you explain? 1511 01:21:31,280 --> 01:21:34,880 Speaker 1: So I'm accurate when I answer this. It's an interesting question. 1512 01:21:37,560 --> 01:21:40,720 Speaker 1: I mean, better than ten eleven is like iconic where 1513 01:21:40,720 --> 01:21:44,720 Speaker 1: in your catalog the warrior better be good to Me 1514 01:21:44,920 --> 01:21:48,320 Speaker 1: or something like that. When you write something of that caliber, 1515 01:21:48,880 --> 01:21:56,400 Speaker 1: do you know it's a hit? That's the first question. Okay, yeah, 1516 01:21:56,520 --> 01:21:59,360 Speaker 1: good question. Um, we knew when we wrote Love as 1517 01:21:59,360 --> 01:22:02,960 Speaker 1: a Battlefield that it was a hit. We weren't sure 1518 01:22:03,000 --> 01:22:05,920 Speaker 1: when you heard their version it was a hit. But 1519 01:22:06,000 --> 01:22:08,000 Speaker 1: we knew when we wrote it was a hit. And 1520 01:22:08,120 --> 01:22:10,080 Speaker 1: as it turned out, it was an iconic. It it's 1521 01:22:10,080 --> 01:22:16,000 Speaker 1: an evergreen, even their production of it. But to get 1522 01:22:16,040 --> 01:22:18,880 Speaker 1: to an eleven, I don't think you know, I think 1523 01:22:18,920 --> 01:22:22,640 Speaker 1: that that just you've hit the lottery. You didn't mean to. 1524 01:22:23,240 --> 01:22:26,080 Speaker 1: I mean, the minute you start thinking I'm going to 1525 01:22:26,160 --> 01:22:28,920 Speaker 1: write something like that, there's no way you're going to 1526 01:22:29,000 --> 01:22:32,160 Speaker 1: do it authentically. There's just no way. So you have 1527 01:22:32,280 --> 01:22:34,760 Speaker 1: to keep it real. So I have to say, and 1528 01:22:34,880 --> 01:22:36,280 Speaker 1: you know, I wrote about it in the book. When 1529 01:22:36,320 --> 01:22:40,040 Speaker 1: we wrote the Best we had no idea how big 1530 01:22:40,080 --> 01:22:41,880 Speaker 1: it was going to be, and it wasn't big in 1531 01:22:41,920 --> 01:22:45,000 Speaker 1: the beginning. It's gotten big over forty years. It's just 1532 01:22:45,040 --> 01:22:48,439 Speaker 1: like a monster that just keeps growing and growing. And 1533 01:22:48,520 --> 01:22:52,240 Speaker 1: growing and tapping into something. You know, in order to 1534 01:22:52,280 --> 01:22:54,880 Speaker 1: have those kind of songs, it has to sort of 1535 01:22:54,960 --> 01:22:58,160 Speaker 1: gell with what's going on in the world, you know, 1536 01:22:58,200 --> 01:23:00,920 Speaker 1: because you've got to tap into a collector of consciousness 1537 01:23:01,080 --> 01:23:05,680 Speaker 1: of pop h you know, pop culture and society and 1538 01:23:05,960 --> 01:23:09,200 Speaker 1: what's needed at any given time. And I think that 1539 01:23:09,280 --> 01:23:11,600 Speaker 1: the Best has done that. I mean, it gets licensed 1540 01:23:11,640 --> 01:23:13,720 Speaker 1: so much. It was just on the Super Bowl. It 1541 01:23:13,840 --> 01:23:17,360 Speaker 1: was licensed for with Pringles, so it was on the 1542 01:23:17,400 --> 01:23:22,320 Speaker 1: Super Bowl. You know, it's been the use of it 1543 01:23:22,320 --> 01:23:26,400 Speaker 1: has just been like so insane that people just keep 1544 01:23:26,439 --> 01:23:28,760 Speaker 1: relating to it. And when we wrote it, we knew 1545 01:23:28,760 --> 01:23:30,920 Speaker 1: we had written a very good song. I don't know 1546 01:23:31,000 --> 01:23:32,920 Speaker 1: if we even thought it was as strong as like 1547 01:23:34,439 --> 01:23:37,400 Speaker 1: love as a battlefield, you know, because it was straighter. 1548 01:23:37,439 --> 01:23:40,559 Speaker 1: It was just so simple and it was so you know, 1549 01:23:40,720 --> 01:23:42,559 Speaker 1: love is a battlefield the way we wrote it, just 1550 01:23:42,600 --> 01:23:44,680 Speaker 1: the title with kind of quirky and stuff, but the 1551 01:23:44,760 --> 01:23:50,080 Speaker 1: Best was just straight ahead, wholesome, simple, something that people 1552 01:23:50,240 --> 01:23:52,920 Speaker 1: just love to sing. I mean when it then it 1553 01:23:52,960 --> 01:23:55,440 Speaker 1: got on Ship's Creek and it was on three episodes 1554 01:23:56,720 --> 01:24:01,320 Speaker 1: and it became like the wedding theme for the LBGT community. 1555 01:24:01,360 --> 01:24:04,960 Speaker 1: I mean you can't plan those things, you know. Okay, 1556 01:24:04,960 --> 01:24:07,640 Speaker 1: but let's talk about the other thing you said earlier 1557 01:24:07,720 --> 01:24:11,799 Speaker 1: that you're usually brought in as a first class utility player. 1558 01:24:12,160 --> 01:24:14,880 Speaker 1: Someone has a project, but they don't have that little 1559 01:24:14,960 --> 01:24:18,599 Speaker 1: something extra. How do you create that little something extra? 1560 01:24:20,040 --> 01:24:30,880 Speaker 1: Are you talking about as a musician or as a songwriter? Songwriter? Yeah, Um, 1561 01:24:31,000 --> 01:24:35,960 Speaker 1: I don't know. I just know that I like to 1562 01:24:37,080 --> 01:24:40,360 Speaker 1: I think I'm good at at hooks, you know, and 1563 01:24:41,120 --> 01:24:44,439 Speaker 1: getting things that are simple enough that people they're quirky 1564 01:24:44,560 --> 01:24:47,719 Speaker 1: enough that they don't It doesn't sound like I'm selling 1565 01:24:47,720 --> 01:24:50,880 Speaker 1: out and deliberately trying to write a hit song. I 1566 01:24:50,960 --> 01:24:53,920 Speaker 1: just try and write a really great song. And I 1567 01:24:54,479 --> 01:24:57,880 Speaker 1: you know, I'm not just a fan of of you know, 1568 01:24:57,960 --> 01:25:01,680 Speaker 1: straight ahead bands like Leeds Appelin or the Beatles. I 1569 01:25:01,720 --> 01:25:03,720 Speaker 1: mean I'm a fan of bird Back rat you know. 1570 01:25:03,760 --> 01:25:08,400 Speaker 1: I love jazz. I grew up with all different kinds 1571 01:25:08,439 --> 01:25:12,280 Speaker 1: of music and classical which I still love, and I 1572 01:25:12,280 --> 01:25:16,000 Speaker 1: implement a lot of that in my songs. So, for instance, 1573 01:25:16,040 --> 01:25:20,800 Speaker 1: I'm really into writing bass lines, and they're the relationship 1574 01:25:20,840 --> 01:25:23,599 Speaker 1: of the bass lines to the chords are different than 1575 01:25:23,680 --> 01:25:26,280 Speaker 1: the normal Like I don't always play the root. I 1576 01:25:26,320 --> 01:25:28,400 Speaker 1: don't mean to get too technical of the music stuff, 1577 01:25:28,400 --> 01:25:31,400 Speaker 1: but I do these things kind of deliberately. You know. 1578 01:25:31,400 --> 01:25:35,000 Speaker 1: I was influenced by people besides bird Backer, Todd Rundgren, 1579 01:25:35,080 --> 01:25:39,080 Speaker 1: and I think I bring all that stuff into the music. 1580 01:25:39,160 --> 01:25:43,240 Speaker 1: But I think also simpler is better. I try and 1581 01:25:43,320 --> 01:25:46,879 Speaker 1: keep things simple, like it's not about quantity, it's about quality. 1582 01:25:47,360 --> 01:25:49,880 Speaker 1: I've even been that way in my songwriting. I don't 1583 01:25:49,920 --> 01:25:52,720 Speaker 1: write a lot of songs these days, you know. I 1584 01:25:52,760 --> 01:25:55,120 Speaker 1: think the busiest ever was was in the eighties. I 1585 01:25:55,160 --> 01:25:57,800 Speaker 1: write when I feel like it. I don't, you know. 1586 01:25:58,000 --> 01:25:59,640 Speaker 1: I don't go in at nine and say I'm going 1587 01:25:59,680 --> 01:26:01,679 Speaker 1: to be at five. I mean, they do that in Nashville, 1588 01:26:01,720 --> 01:26:04,320 Speaker 1: like it's unbelievable. They go, Okay, we're gonna write from 1589 01:26:04,400 --> 01:26:06,240 Speaker 1: nine to three. The song is going to be written 1590 01:26:06,240 --> 01:26:08,080 Speaker 1: by three, and then we have another session, so we 1591 01:26:08,120 --> 01:26:11,600 Speaker 1: have to go. And I don't write like that, you know. 1592 01:26:11,720 --> 01:26:13,559 Speaker 1: I mean even when we wrote Loves the Battlefield, we 1593 01:26:13,560 --> 01:26:15,000 Speaker 1: wrote the whole thing on one day, but then we 1594 01:26:15,080 --> 01:26:17,519 Speaker 1: spent another week coming up with the one line, and 1595 01:26:17,560 --> 01:26:20,040 Speaker 1: we came up with hundreds. We just didn't like them, 1596 01:26:20,080 --> 01:26:25,519 Speaker 1: you know. So I don't really think like a business person. 1597 01:26:25,560 --> 01:26:27,680 Speaker 1: When I write, I think like an artist. I you know, 1598 01:26:28,280 --> 01:26:30,280 Speaker 1: anytime I've tried to do that, I've written the worst 1599 01:26:30,280 --> 01:26:33,960 Speaker 1: piece of shitka years ago. So do you have any 1600 01:26:34,040 --> 01:26:38,439 Speaker 1: hits in your suitcase? Stuff you've written that people that 1601 01:26:38,680 --> 01:26:40,519 Speaker 1: even people have not cut her, they've cut in a 1602 01:26:40,560 --> 01:26:43,680 Speaker 1: bad way, or haven't been promoted that way, all of 1603 01:26:43,720 --> 01:26:45,519 Speaker 1: the above, and I have you. I call it my 1604 01:26:45,560 --> 01:26:48,360 Speaker 1: bone yard, and some of the best stuff I've written 1605 01:26:48,840 --> 01:26:51,120 Speaker 1: is in that bone yard. And I now it's like 1606 01:26:51,200 --> 01:26:53,519 Speaker 1: because it's forty years later, I think of it as 1607 01:26:53,640 --> 01:26:57,360 Speaker 1: vintage Hallowey Night, but it's still like ready to be, 1608 01:26:57,400 --> 01:26:59,519 Speaker 1: you know, birthed out there. I have a lot of 1609 01:26:59,520 --> 01:27:03,360 Speaker 1: songs like that. It's crazy. Okay, let's talk about working 1610 01:27:03,360 --> 01:27:07,240 Speaker 1: with Aero Smith. Errol Smith comes back there on have 1611 01:27:07,280 --> 01:27:11,280 Speaker 1: a first record done with Mirrors, completely stiff. They're doing 1612 01:27:11,320 --> 01:27:15,280 Speaker 1: the second album they call you in what ends up 1613 01:27:15,360 --> 01:27:20,000 Speaker 1: resulting as Ragnall, which is the biggest track off that album. 1614 01:27:20,160 --> 01:27:23,439 Speaker 1: To tell us how that came to be, Well, my 1615 01:27:23,520 --> 01:27:27,559 Speaker 1: friend John Claudner called me up and he was sort 1616 01:27:27,600 --> 01:27:31,000 Speaker 1: of before I had met him during the Heart Sessions 1617 01:27:31,160 --> 01:27:35,800 Speaker 1: and we just became friends and he thought I was 1618 01:27:35,800 --> 01:27:37,800 Speaker 1: a badass. So he called me up and he said, listen, 1619 01:27:37,840 --> 01:27:40,640 Speaker 1: I got this song, and he kind of talks like that, 1620 01:27:41,280 --> 01:27:44,720 Speaker 1: you know, yes, well wait wait wait, when is the 1621 01:27:44,840 --> 01:27:50,840 Speaker 1: last time you spoke with Klaudner. It's been decades, but 1622 01:27:51,320 --> 01:27:53,360 Speaker 1: when my book came out, he was writing me on 1623 01:27:53,479 --> 01:27:57,280 Speaker 1: LinkedIn saying that's great. I get wait to read in everything. 1624 01:27:59,200 --> 01:28:01,439 Speaker 1: But he had mind. At that point, he was with 1625 01:28:01,520 --> 01:28:04,040 Speaker 1: Deafin Records. He was the president of Define Records, and 1626 01:28:04,400 --> 01:28:07,679 Speaker 1: what I liked about him was like he really honored 1627 01:28:07,680 --> 01:28:09,760 Speaker 1: a lot of bands that still had a lot of 1628 01:28:09,800 --> 01:28:11,760 Speaker 1: life in them and maybe even new life that they 1629 01:28:11,760 --> 01:28:14,320 Speaker 1: had never even had before that they weren't quite ready 1630 01:28:14,320 --> 01:28:16,880 Speaker 1: to be put out the pasture, which everybody else was doing, 1631 01:28:16,960 --> 01:28:20,559 Speaker 1: you know. So he signed quite a few bands, you know, 1632 01:28:20,800 --> 01:28:25,160 Speaker 1: Aerosmith was one of them, and he said to them, 1633 01:28:25,160 --> 01:28:26,840 Speaker 1: this is a make or break record. And at that 1634 01:28:26,840 --> 01:28:28,800 Speaker 1: point they had gotten really, really clean. So there were 1635 01:28:28,800 --> 01:28:31,320 Speaker 1: a lot of things going on. And he matched me 1636 01:28:31,400 --> 01:28:33,280 Speaker 1: up with Steven. He said, I'm going to send you 1637 01:28:33,320 --> 01:28:35,160 Speaker 1: a song. Would you have a listen to? He said, 1638 01:28:35,160 --> 01:28:38,559 Speaker 1: I think it's a really good song. Potentially, he says, 1639 01:28:38,680 --> 01:28:41,120 Speaker 1: it's not a hit. I don't know if it's going 1640 01:28:41,200 --> 01:28:43,479 Speaker 1: to be a hit, but if you could take a 1641 01:28:43,479 --> 01:28:46,680 Speaker 1: look at it and tell me what you think, if 1642 01:28:46,680 --> 01:28:49,240 Speaker 1: you want to work on it. And so that's what 1643 01:28:49,280 --> 01:28:51,040 Speaker 1: he did, and he sent it to me and I said, well, 1644 01:28:51,040 --> 01:28:54,080 Speaker 1: wait a minute, how does Steven feel about this? And 1645 01:28:54,240 --> 01:28:56,040 Speaker 1: Joe Perry? I mean, I don't want to be shoved 1646 01:28:56,080 --> 01:29:01,280 Speaker 1: down their throat. Which is really funny because when I 1647 01:29:01,280 --> 01:29:03,280 Speaker 1: did talk to Steve and I actually said that to him, 1648 01:29:03,280 --> 01:29:07,320 Speaker 1: and of course that provoked a really you know, flirtatious 1649 01:29:07,360 --> 01:29:09,720 Speaker 1: comment when I said, oh, I don't want it to 1650 01:29:09,760 --> 01:29:13,200 Speaker 1: be shoved down your throat. But no, he was all 1651 01:29:13,200 --> 01:29:17,040 Speaker 1: for it. He had talked to John, and I think 1652 01:29:17,080 --> 01:29:18,960 Speaker 1: they were just sort of like they were so clean 1653 01:29:19,000 --> 01:29:20,880 Speaker 1: and so excited to be given a new life of 1654 01:29:21,360 --> 01:29:24,639 Speaker 1: a lease on life, that they were open to this stuff. 1655 01:29:24,680 --> 01:29:27,080 Speaker 1: You see, a lot of bands were never would never 1656 01:29:27,160 --> 01:29:29,880 Speaker 1: have been open to this. To them is like selling out. 1657 01:29:29,920 --> 01:29:32,320 Speaker 1: It's like, if you can't write your own songs, you're 1658 01:29:32,360 --> 01:29:36,680 Speaker 1: not worth you know, anything. And I think that's a 1659 01:29:36,680 --> 01:29:39,000 Speaker 1: bit sad that they think that way, because it's like 1660 01:29:39,040 --> 01:29:40,800 Speaker 1: if you're a great actor, it doesn't mean you can 1661 01:29:40,800 --> 01:29:43,240 Speaker 1: write a great screenplay, you know. And some look at 1662 01:29:43,240 --> 01:29:45,400 Speaker 1: Tina Turner. She doesn't write around things. So I don't 1663 01:29:45,400 --> 01:29:47,880 Speaker 1: think it's something to be ashamed of. And I think 1664 01:29:48,040 --> 01:29:51,280 Speaker 1: enough people started doing it that there was a group 1665 01:29:51,360 --> 01:29:53,640 Speaker 1: of songwriters that was kind of referred to as the 1666 01:29:53,800 --> 01:29:56,800 Speaker 1: songwriter elite, and they would go out and write with 1667 01:29:56,840 --> 01:29:59,080 Speaker 1: these people. And I was one of them, you know. 1668 01:29:59,160 --> 01:30:04,960 Speaker 1: Desmond Child was another, Billy Steinberg was another, and so 1669 01:30:05,400 --> 01:30:07,000 Speaker 1: and I think the fact that I was a woman 1670 01:30:07,200 --> 01:30:13,400 Speaker 1: a woman definitely interested Stephen, you know. So he called 1671 01:30:13,439 --> 01:30:16,679 Speaker 1: me up and we ended up talking for two weeks 1672 01:30:16,680 --> 01:30:19,519 Speaker 1: on the phone before I actually not two weeks solid. 1673 01:30:19,560 --> 01:30:22,280 Speaker 1: I mean like every day you call me up like clockwork, Hey, 1674 01:30:22,320 --> 01:30:24,080 Speaker 1: how are you doing, how's your David? And you know, 1675 01:30:24,520 --> 01:30:27,400 Speaker 1: and we just kind of talked for sometimes two hours, 1676 01:30:27,479 --> 01:30:31,400 Speaker 1: four hours and became friends before we ever met each other. 1677 01:30:31,560 --> 01:30:35,400 Speaker 1: And you know, eventually the conversation got around to, Okay, 1678 01:30:35,439 --> 01:30:36,800 Speaker 1: we got to nail this, we got to hit this 1679 01:30:36,840 --> 01:30:38,360 Speaker 1: out of the park. And I said to him, look, 1680 01:30:38,439 --> 01:30:41,320 Speaker 1: I don't think it needs a lot of changes. See, 1681 01:30:41,400 --> 01:30:43,760 Speaker 1: unlike some people, they hear something and they just want 1682 01:30:43,760 --> 01:30:46,480 Speaker 1: to change it just so they their ego can be satisfied. 1683 01:30:46,479 --> 01:30:49,120 Speaker 1: Like they changed it and put their stamp on it. 1684 01:30:49,240 --> 01:30:52,479 Speaker 1: I'm more like I don't really have a big ego 1685 01:30:52,520 --> 01:30:55,280 Speaker 1: when it comes to my career. I always think, like 1686 01:30:55,760 --> 01:30:57,880 Speaker 1: what's best for the song, Just like when I was 1687 01:30:57,920 --> 01:31:00,679 Speaker 1: writing the book. Does it serve the book? If it's 1688 01:31:00,880 --> 01:31:03,880 Speaker 1: if it's you know, trimm the fat off, or if 1689 01:31:03,920 --> 01:31:06,760 Speaker 1: it's something that you have a personal thing going on 1690 01:31:06,880 --> 01:31:08,479 Speaker 1: with someone, but it really doesn't need to be in 1691 01:31:08,520 --> 01:31:10,240 Speaker 1: the book, then it doesn't need to be in the book. 1692 01:31:10,280 --> 01:31:13,400 Speaker 1: So I said to Stephen anyway, Um, I don't think 1693 01:31:13,400 --> 01:31:16,280 Speaker 1: it needs to be rewritten. I think the track is beautiful. 1694 01:31:16,840 --> 01:31:18,960 Speaker 1: I think a lot of it's good. But the song 1695 01:31:19,040 --> 01:31:23,640 Speaker 1: means nothing to me. And it was called ragtime, you know, 1696 01:31:24,400 --> 01:31:26,840 Speaker 1: so I was able to I felt like I was 1697 01:31:27,080 --> 01:31:30,080 Speaker 1: the doctor that came into it, like you know, tighten 1698 01:31:30,160 --> 01:31:34,320 Speaker 1: the screw or whatever, the specialist. And it worked. You know. 1699 01:31:34,439 --> 01:31:36,840 Speaker 1: We changed the lyrics as some of the lyrics to 1700 01:31:36,960 --> 01:31:41,439 Speaker 1: match with I came up with ragdollum. But it is 1701 01:31:41,520 --> 01:31:44,559 Speaker 1: not the way I like to write, you know, I don't. 1702 01:31:44,760 --> 01:31:46,320 Speaker 1: As I said before, you said, well you know, like 1703 01:31:46,360 --> 01:31:48,120 Speaker 1: how do you like. I like to be the initiator. 1704 01:31:48,160 --> 01:31:50,800 Speaker 1: I like to bring in a new, fresh idea, or 1705 01:31:51,400 --> 01:31:55,840 Speaker 1: be jamming in the room, you know, uh together. But 1706 01:31:55,960 --> 01:31:58,400 Speaker 1: I don't like being brought in to change something that's 1707 01:31:58,400 --> 01:32:01,000 Speaker 1: already I feel like I'm tramp on like a like 1708 01:32:01,040 --> 01:32:05,200 Speaker 1: a you know, hallowed ground, like a gravyheart or something. 1709 01:32:06,080 --> 01:32:08,960 Speaker 1: So it worked out in this case, but I sort 1710 01:32:08,960 --> 01:32:11,000 Speaker 1: of made it a point after that not to do that. 1711 01:32:11,400 --> 01:32:14,680 Speaker 1: I also did it because I wanted to work with Aerosmith. 1712 01:32:14,720 --> 01:32:16,920 Speaker 1: I was just such a huge fan, and at that 1713 01:32:17,000 --> 01:32:18,840 Speaker 1: point they were kind of over. I mean they'd been 1714 01:32:18,840 --> 01:32:21,960 Speaker 1: doing so many drugs, and the record they had put 1715 01:32:22,040 --> 01:32:24,680 Speaker 1: up before that it was not a good record. You know. 1716 01:32:25,640 --> 01:32:27,040 Speaker 1: I just wanted to be able to say that I 1717 01:32:27,080 --> 01:32:28,840 Speaker 1: had worked with him. I didn't even care if they 1718 01:32:29,000 --> 01:32:31,559 Speaker 1: sold another record or not. I just was a big fan. 1719 01:32:31,920 --> 01:32:37,080 Speaker 1: You know, talk about rejuvenation, you also rejuvenate heart. Now 1720 01:32:37,120 --> 01:32:40,800 Speaker 1: you say they're very happy about that, But did you 1721 01:32:40,840 --> 01:32:43,840 Speaker 1: ever work with one of these people? Say then they said, 1722 01:32:44,240 --> 01:32:46,040 Speaker 1: we'll pay you, but we're not putting your name on 1723 01:32:46,080 --> 01:32:51,519 Speaker 1: the record, not as a songwriter. I mean I did 1724 01:32:51,520 --> 01:32:54,400 Speaker 1: that with Kiss when I played on a Kiss on Mass, 1725 01:32:54,439 --> 01:32:57,160 Speaker 1: I played on the whole record and or most of it, 1726 01:32:57,760 --> 01:32:59,920 Speaker 1: and they told me you were not giving you credit, 1727 01:33:00,160 --> 01:33:03,240 Speaker 1: you can't have credit, and I knew that Anton had 1728 01:33:03,280 --> 01:33:06,120 Speaker 1: also had to agree to the same thing. You know, 1729 01:33:06,640 --> 01:33:08,880 Speaker 1: we're going to pay you, and they paid them very well, 1730 01:33:08,880 --> 01:33:11,600 Speaker 1: but we're not. We can't tell people that you're that. 1731 01:33:11,680 --> 01:33:14,720 Speaker 1: Peter Chriss is out and you're in. Although they did 1732 01:33:14,760 --> 01:33:17,519 Speaker 1: offer him the job, they actually after a few records. 1733 01:33:17,520 --> 01:33:19,680 Speaker 1: I actually asked him if he would join Kiss and 1734 01:33:20,720 --> 01:33:23,920 Speaker 1: I have to say, you know, in a in an 1735 01:33:24,400 --> 01:33:28,200 Speaker 1: amazing feat of loyalty, he turned them down. I don't 1736 01:33:28,200 --> 01:33:30,920 Speaker 1: know if he regrets in Nail, but you know, because 1737 01:33:30,920 --> 01:33:36,799 Speaker 1: they're still out there killing it. But that never happened 1738 01:33:36,800 --> 01:33:39,400 Speaker 1: as a writer, and I never would have worked with anyone. 1739 01:33:39,439 --> 01:33:40,920 Speaker 1: If they said I wasn't going to get a credit 1740 01:33:41,000 --> 01:33:43,240 Speaker 1: and I was going to gos right, I would told 1741 01:33:43,280 --> 01:33:47,320 Speaker 1: him to fuck off. Okay, so you have all these hits, 1742 01:33:47,880 --> 01:33:52,640 Speaker 1: originally you're signed to Mike's publishing company. How much of 1743 01:33:52,640 --> 01:33:56,479 Speaker 1: this stuff do you own out right? And how hard 1744 01:33:56,520 --> 01:34:02,560 Speaker 1: has it been to get paid? It's never hard to 1745 01:34:02,600 --> 01:34:05,000 Speaker 1: get paid. I've been I get paid because I have 1746 01:34:05,320 --> 01:34:09,000 Speaker 1: the right people surrounding me that make sure I get paid, 1747 01:34:09,120 --> 01:34:12,080 Speaker 1: and I have deals with people that I considered to 1748 01:34:12,120 --> 01:34:19,880 Speaker 1: be honest and ethical, which is almost unheard of. Right. 1749 01:34:20,040 --> 01:34:23,280 Speaker 1: That's like my business manager I've been her name's Tina Fastbender. 1750 01:34:23,320 --> 01:34:25,960 Speaker 1: I've been with her thirty five years. And you hear 1751 01:34:26,080 --> 01:34:28,840 Speaker 1: all these nightmare stories. It's like the me too thing. 1752 01:34:29,040 --> 01:34:33,800 Speaker 1: Somehow I've just managed to always I mean again, not 1753 01:34:33,840 --> 01:34:35,559 Speaker 1: to say that I haven't had a lot of crappy 1754 01:34:35,600 --> 01:34:37,880 Speaker 1: things happen, but when it comes to those kind of 1755 01:34:37,920 --> 01:34:42,560 Speaker 1: horror stories that you are about, I've been really fortunate 1756 01:34:42,720 --> 01:34:46,599 Speaker 1: not to get ripped off. And here's the other part 1757 01:34:46,680 --> 01:34:51,200 Speaker 1: that's great. I'll be honest. I did sell a big 1758 01:34:51,240 --> 01:34:55,040 Speaker 1: part of my catalog for a lot of money to 1759 01:34:55,600 --> 01:34:58,840 Speaker 1: accompany a primary Wave, which is now you know, they're 1760 01:34:58,840 --> 01:35:02,360 Speaker 1: buying up so many any catalogs. But I have a 1761 01:35:02,439 --> 01:35:06,200 Speaker 1: very good relationship with them. I mean the CEO, Larry Mistell. 1762 01:35:06,280 --> 01:35:09,000 Speaker 1: If I if I texted him, he texts me back immediately. 1763 01:35:09,640 --> 01:35:12,640 Speaker 1: It's not like my experience in the past. You know, 1764 01:35:12,640 --> 01:35:15,000 Speaker 1: I've signed an EMI Publishing for many years, is like 1765 01:35:15,120 --> 01:35:18,400 Speaker 1: just to get a response or respect or anything was 1766 01:35:18,439 --> 01:35:22,280 Speaker 1: always so hard. So I have these good relationships with 1767 01:35:22,320 --> 01:35:24,200 Speaker 1: these people and they're out there killing it for me 1768 01:35:24,240 --> 01:35:26,000 Speaker 1: getting all these covers now I mean, I have so 1769 01:35:26,040 --> 01:35:29,960 Speaker 1: many amazing covers because I have someone actually working like 1770 01:35:29,960 --> 01:35:32,680 Speaker 1: we're all it's a win win for everybody, you know. 1771 01:35:33,160 --> 01:35:35,120 Speaker 1: But the other thing I was going to say was, 1772 01:35:35,520 --> 01:35:38,680 Speaker 1: you know, there's this law that after you've written a 1773 01:35:38,680 --> 01:35:42,360 Speaker 1: song for thirty five and you've written a song and 1774 01:35:42,520 --> 01:35:46,080 Speaker 1: thirty five years go by, and you approach the person 1775 01:35:46,160 --> 01:35:49,759 Speaker 1: that has the publishing on whatever songs you're talking about, 1776 01:35:50,640 --> 01:35:52,080 Speaker 1: and you get a lawyer and you say I want 1777 01:35:52,080 --> 01:35:53,800 Speaker 1: the songs back, they have to give him back to you. 1778 01:35:54,960 --> 01:35:59,880 Speaker 1: So I've gotten back copyrights for songs that I rig 1779 01:36:00,160 --> 01:36:03,519 Speaker 1: only gave away. Didn't know I was giving it away, 1780 01:36:03,520 --> 01:36:05,559 Speaker 1: But it turned out to be a blessing because if 1781 01:36:05,600 --> 01:36:07,439 Speaker 1: I hadn't given them away and I owned them, they 1782 01:36:07,479 --> 01:36:10,160 Speaker 1: would have been part of the catalog sale. But because 1783 01:36:10,240 --> 01:36:13,000 Speaker 1: I didn't own them, I couldn't sell them. And then 1784 01:36:13,120 --> 01:36:17,360 Speaker 1: after the catalog sale had happened, I knew I was 1785 01:36:17,400 --> 01:36:19,519 Speaker 1: getting these songs back, and so I did. I got 1786 01:36:19,560 --> 01:36:24,400 Speaker 1: back all my publishing to songs like the Warrior Love 1787 01:36:24,479 --> 01:36:28,240 Speaker 1: is a Battlefield Obsession, better be good to me. So 1788 01:36:30,560 --> 01:36:33,040 Speaker 1: that was a really nice that's only been in the 1789 01:36:33,120 --> 01:36:36,080 Speaker 1: last few years. It's had them because you know, like 1790 01:36:36,120 --> 01:36:37,599 Speaker 1: if you write a song, it has to be thirty 1791 01:36:37,600 --> 01:36:39,880 Speaker 1: five years from the date. And I ended up telling 1792 01:36:39,920 --> 01:36:41,920 Speaker 1: a lot of songwriters that that didn't know that. Then 1793 01:36:41,960 --> 01:36:44,640 Speaker 1: in fact, I told Steven Tyler that he didn't know 1794 01:36:44,680 --> 01:36:46,720 Speaker 1: anything about that, and hopefully he listened to me and 1795 01:36:46,720 --> 01:36:50,320 Speaker 1: he got, you know, some of his publishing back. Okay, 1796 01:36:50,560 --> 01:36:54,080 Speaker 1: you all those songs you just mentioned are not part 1797 01:36:54,120 --> 01:37:00,240 Speaker 1: of primary wave deal love is a Battlefield Warrior are 1798 01:37:00,240 --> 01:37:05,200 Speaker 1: separate right right? Okay? No, well no, if they own it, 1799 01:37:05,840 --> 01:37:08,000 Speaker 1: they own a piece of it. But um, they could 1800 01:37:08,040 --> 01:37:11,760 Speaker 1: only buy what I had available, so some of it 1801 01:37:11,840 --> 01:37:13,679 Speaker 1: would have would have been other things which I can't 1802 01:37:13,720 --> 01:37:16,760 Speaker 1: really like get into the details in the interview. I mean, 1803 01:37:16,920 --> 01:37:20,599 Speaker 1: you know, I wishing wasn't wasn't one of them. Okay, 1804 01:37:20,800 --> 01:37:24,280 Speaker 1: but I know Larry pretty well. He usually likes to 1805 01:37:24,320 --> 01:37:29,080 Speaker 1: buy fifty percent before a hundred percent. Does he own 1806 01:37:29,080 --> 01:37:33,200 Speaker 1: a hundred percent or just fifty percent? Um? I can't 1807 01:37:33,240 --> 01:37:37,639 Speaker 1: really I'm not really comfortable talking, okay, Okay, okay, So 1808 01:37:38,200 --> 01:37:42,559 Speaker 1: what you do with the money? What do I What 1809 01:37:42,600 --> 01:37:46,160 Speaker 1: did I do with the money? Yeah? This always intrigues me, Okay, 1810 01:37:46,240 --> 01:37:49,240 Speaker 1: because musicians are not known for being good for the money. 1811 01:37:49,280 --> 01:37:52,080 Speaker 1: If you sold your catalog within the last year and 1812 01:37:52,120 --> 01:37:55,480 Speaker 1: invested in the stock market, immediately took a thirty percent haircut. 1813 01:37:56,120 --> 01:37:58,640 Speaker 1: So I'm always interesting. Peace oh sell Sell says, well, 1814 01:37:58,640 --> 01:38:00,160 Speaker 1: what are you gonna do with the money? I'm just 1815 01:38:00,520 --> 01:38:03,080 Speaker 1: you know, you get this big chunk of change. Where 1816 01:38:03,080 --> 01:38:06,160 Speaker 1: do you put it? Well, first of all, I'm not 1817 01:38:06,320 --> 01:38:09,720 Speaker 1: selling my publishing. That's like that, you know, that's for 1818 01:38:09,840 --> 01:38:14,960 Speaker 1: my kids, and that's very valuable. As far as the 1819 01:38:15,000 --> 01:38:17,000 Speaker 1: other things, like, like I said up the I'm with 1820 01:38:17,040 --> 01:38:21,040 Speaker 1: the same business manager for thirty five years. I'm Jewish. 1821 01:38:21,200 --> 01:38:23,840 Speaker 1: I'm not the kind of person that you know, I 1822 01:38:23,840 --> 01:38:27,080 Speaker 1: don't like taking risks because i feel like I've worked 1823 01:38:27,160 --> 01:38:29,880 Speaker 1: so hard to get that money. It's like I'm not 1824 01:38:29,960 --> 01:38:32,040 Speaker 1: just going to throw it at the stock market. But 1825 01:38:32,240 --> 01:38:34,080 Speaker 1: at the same time, you know, you can't just leave 1826 01:38:34,120 --> 01:38:37,599 Speaker 1: it in the bank between inflation or whatever. You know, 1827 01:38:37,640 --> 01:38:39,559 Speaker 1: you have to see, you have to decide what kind 1828 01:38:39,560 --> 01:38:41,479 Speaker 1: of things you're going to invest in. And I'm always 1829 01:38:41,560 --> 01:38:44,320 Speaker 1: very conservative, and I've only taken a chunk of it 1830 01:38:44,360 --> 01:38:46,479 Speaker 1: and the rest of it, I've invested in different things. 1831 01:38:46,520 --> 01:38:51,200 Speaker 1: You know, I've invested in real estate and I mean Basically, 1832 01:38:51,439 --> 01:38:55,439 Speaker 1: the theory is if you're in it and you just 1833 01:38:55,560 --> 01:38:58,479 Speaker 1: let it sit and pretend it doesn't you know, just 1834 01:38:58,640 --> 01:39:00,479 Speaker 1: leave it alone, it's going to come back. It's going 1835 01:39:00,520 --> 01:39:03,120 Speaker 1: to come back around. So maybe a lot of people 1836 01:39:03,200 --> 01:39:06,519 Speaker 1: lost thirty percent, but I think, what the small amount 1837 01:39:07,200 --> 01:39:11,639 Speaker 1: what I compare my empire that I invested in stock 1838 01:39:12,960 --> 01:39:15,160 Speaker 1: was a small amount. I didn't take all the moneyges 1839 01:39:15,160 --> 01:39:17,960 Speaker 1: invest it because that's just stupid to me, that's not smart. 1840 01:39:20,400 --> 01:39:23,120 Speaker 1: But I took about a nineteen percent hits. I have 1841 01:39:23,200 --> 01:39:25,679 Speaker 1: good people working for me. It was last year was brittle, 1842 01:39:26,520 --> 01:39:30,759 Speaker 1: you know. But also real estate. You know, I bought 1843 01:39:30,760 --> 01:39:34,320 Speaker 1: a house that like has like quadrupled in value and 1844 01:39:34,360 --> 01:39:37,479 Speaker 1: it was expensive to begin with. So I'm doing all right, 1845 01:39:38,680 --> 01:39:43,320 Speaker 1: you know. Okay, so the book is focused on the eighties, 1846 01:39:43,360 --> 01:39:46,480 Speaker 1: and then it totally cracks me up. You moved to Fearfield, Connecticut, 1847 01:39:46,520 --> 01:39:50,559 Speaker 1: where I grew up, So really, yes, So where did 1848 01:39:50,560 --> 01:39:56,360 Speaker 1: you live in Fearfield? Spring Failed Hell? Sorry? Greenfield? Hell's 1849 01:39:56,360 --> 01:39:59,680 Speaker 1: just beautiful. I mean that's like you know that when 1850 01:39:59,680 --> 01:40:02,400 Speaker 1: I farmers, Yeah, when I grew up there were no 1851 01:40:02,479 --> 01:40:08,599 Speaker 1: Jews there. But that's okay, But did you consciously decide 1852 01:40:08,600 --> 01:40:11,960 Speaker 1: to extract yourself from the scene, or you just sort 1853 01:40:11,960 --> 01:40:16,719 Speaker 1: of found yourself moving away from it. Well, I'll explain 1854 01:40:16,760 --> 01:40:19,840 Speaker 1: to you what happened. I had I had already had 1855 01:40:19,880 --> 01:40:22,120 Speaker 1: one child, and I thought, you know, the year that 1856 01:40:22,200 --> 01:40:25,080 Speaker 1: I moved to Connecticut, I that was the year the 1857 01:40:25,200 --> 01:40:29,280 Speaker 1: Rodney King beatings, the big earthquake, the mudslides. I mean, 1858 01:40:29,360 --> 01:40:31,679 Speaker 1: that was that horrible year. I think it was nineteen 1859 01:40:31,800 --> 01:40:35,360 Speaker 1: ninety four or something like that, and I wanted to 1860 01:40:35,360 --> 01:40:37,400 Speaker 1: have another child, and I thought, I don't want to 1861 01:40:37,439 --> 01:40:40,240 Speaker 1: really raise them here because it's like the earthquake was 1862 01:40:40,280 --> 01:40:44,559 Speaker 1: really scary. That alone was scary. So I thought I 1863 01:40:44,560 --> 01:40:48,080 Speaker 1: would move to Connecticut because it was outside of New 1864 01:40:48,160 --> 01:40:50,920 Speaker 1: York and everybody would just cop on a train and 1865 01:40:51,000 --> 01:40:54,519 Speaker 1: come up to the Bucolic countryside and work in my studio. 1866 01:40:55,200 --> 01:40:58,799 Speaker 1: The reason I picked Connecticut also is because Mike Chapman 1867 01:40:58,920 --> 01:41:01,840 Speaker 1: had moved there and he bought this estate. It was 1868 01:41:01,880 --> 01:41:05,400 Speaker 1: like the vom Trapp family. There's a long driveway and 1869 01:41:05,560 --> 01:41:08,880 Speaker 1: this big, big house, and it was in Easton, which 1870 01:41:09,000 --> 01:41:11,759 Speaker 1: was just down the road from Weston, where Keith Richard 1871 01:41:11,800 --> 01:41:14,559 Speaker 1: live and meet Loaf. There were some other musicians there, 1872 01:41:14,560 --> 01:41:17,080 Speaker 1: but I wanted to work with him again. I wanted 1873 01:41:17,120 --> 01:41:19,439 Speaker 1: to recapture. I wanted to go back to the beginning 1874 01:41:19,439 --> 01:41:23,240 Speaker 1: where it was just writing great songs. So I wanted 1875 01:41:23,240 --> 01:41:26,160 Speaker 1: to be closer to the Only thing is is that 1876 01:41:26,320 --> 01:41:28,320 Speaker 1: we had changed now. I mean, he had children, I 1877 01:41:28,360 --> 01:41:30,800 Speaker 1: had children. We had other responsibilities, and we wrote stuff. 1878 01:41:30,840 --> 01:41:33,880 Speaker 1: But I think we needed to be in LA to 1879 01:41:33,920 --> 01:41:35,640 Speaker 1: write the kind of songs that we wrote. Like if 1880 01:41:35,640 --> 01:41:37,479 Speaker 1: I were to write with them now, I'd still I'd 1881 01:41:37,520 --> 01:41:39,360 Speaker 1: want to work here. I want to want to work 1882 01:41:39,360 --> 01:41:43,880 Speaker 1: anywhere else, you know, just something that contributed, if you're 1883 01:41:44,280 --> 01:41:47,439 Speaker 1: going to try and recapture what was magical or whatever. 1884 01:41:49,520 --> 01:41:51,640 Speaker 1: And I still write agy songs. I mean, I have 1885 01:41:51,680 --> 01:41:54,599 Speaker 1: a song I just put together with it. I produced 1886 01:41:54,600 --> 01:41:59,000 Speaker 1: a band that I've put together of women, and it's 1887 01:41:59,560 --> 01:42:01,720 Speaker 1: the first song we did that I'm putting out is 1888 01:42:02,040 --> 01:42:07,680 Speaker 1: it's an acronym. It's AMFOO, which stands for Adios motherfucker 1889 01:42:07,760 --> 01:42:09,920 Speaker 1: Year on your own. So it's not like I've lost 1890 01:42:10,080 --> 01:42:12,360 Speaker 1: the bite or anything or of who I am. You know, 1891 01:42:12,520 --> 01:42:18,960 Speaker 1: I don't know what's relevant with what I do necessarily 1892 01:42:18,960 --> 01:42:21,080 Speaker 1: as far as production and stuff. What's out there. I mean, 1893 01:42:21,160 --> 01:42:24,200 Speaker 1: the music business has just changed so much it's like 1894 01:42:24,439 --> 01:42:27,280 Speaker 1: it just blows my mind, you know. And I'm still 1895 01:42:27,320 --> 01:42:30,639 Speaker 1: a rocker, and it's rock. It's not really it's sort 1896 01:42:30,640 --> 01:42:33,280 Speaker 1: of coming back or not sort of it is coming back. 1897 01:42:33,360 --> 01:42:40,720 Speaker 1: But so I moved there and I liked it the 1898 01:42:40,760 --> 01:42:43,519 Speaker 1: first year or the you know, having dar was so 1899 01:42:43,640 --> 01:42:45,559 Speaker 1: quaint and charming, and then all of a sudden you realize, well, 1900 01:42:45,600 --> 01:42:50,120 Speaker 1: no deer or in quaint and charming because they carry 1901 01:42:50,160 --> 01:42:53,920 Speaker 1: line disease, which is from Kinnecticut, you know, and all 1902 01:42:53,920 --> 01:42:57,240 Speaker 1: these things that seem so glamorous and beautiful. I hated 1903 01:42:57,240 --> 01:43:00,479 Speaker 1: the weather. I hated living there, And I came back 1904 01:43:00,479 --> 01:43:03,479 Speaker 1: to California one day for a business thing, like four 1905 01:43:03,560 --> 01:43:07,439 Speaker 1: years had gone by, and in that four years, because 1906 01:43:07,479 --> 01:43:10,040 Speaker 1: I wanted to spend time being a mother and stuff. 1907 01:43:10,560 --> 01:43:12,720 Speaker 1: It's like what happened to Holly Night? Where did she go? 1908 01:43:13,360 --> 01:43:16,240 Speaker 1: I laughed? You know, when I came back, it was 1909 01:43:16,280 --> 01:43:18,960 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, like you know, while you were gone, 1910 01:43:19,000 --> 01:43:20,880 Speaker 1: a new breeds just came up and took over. And 1911 01:43:20,920 --> 01:43:23,599 Speaker 1: so I had to spend a lot of time sort 1912 01:43:23,600 --> 01:43:26,200 Speaker 1: of clawing my way back in there, and I did. 1913 01:43:26,240 --> 01:43:30,360 Speaker 1: I always I've always had songs in movies and TV shows. 1914 01:43:30,360 --> 01:43:33,960 Speaker 1: And written themes, and but I could never quite get 1915 01:43:33,960 --> 01:43:36,719 Speaker 1: back to that place that I did in the eighties. 1916 01:43:36,760 --> 01:43:38,479 Speaker 1: And that's not to say I'm not going to. I 1917 01:43:38,479 --> 01:43:41,280 Speaker 1: mean I think it's very easy to have like one 1918 01:43:41,320 --> 01:43:43,160 Speaker 1: wave and then you take some time off, and then 1919 01:43:43,160 --> 01:43:46,200 Speaker 1: you have another wave. And I think I'm totally capable 1920 01:43:46,240 --> 01:43:48,640 Speaker 1: of that. And that's why when you asked me if 1921 01:43:48,640 --> 01:43:52,000 Speaker 1: I have songs, you know, in a vault somewhere, it's like, God, yes, 1922 01:43:52,120 --> 01:43:56,880 Speaker 1: it's like I do. And I think a lot of 1923 01:43:56,920 --> 01:43:59,200 Speaker 1: it has to do with how the business has changed now, 1924 01:43:59,320 --> 01:44:01,680 Speaker 1: don't I don't even feel that inspired to want to 1925 01:44:01,720 --> 01:44:04,599 Speaker 1: do what I did before because with streaming and all 1926 01:44:04,600 --> 01:44:06,840 Speaker 1: these things that are going on, you can't really really 1927 01:44:07,280 --> 01:44:13,360 Speaker 1: carve out. There's a handful of people that are doing it, 1928 01:44:13,479 --> 01:44:16,000 Speaker 1: but I'm not that interested in it. I sort of 1929 01:44:16,040 --> 01:44:17,760 Speaker 1: like I feel like I've done that. Like if I'm 1930 01:44:17,760 --> 01:44:19,160 Speaker 1: going to do something, I don't want it to be 1931 01:44:19,200 --> 01:44:21,880 Speaker 1: contrived or I don't care about getting back on you 1932 01:44:22,160 --> 01:44:24,760 Speaker 1: being the most famous songwriter or whatever. I just I 1933 01:44:24,840 --> 01:44:26,880 Speaker 1: have a lot of interests and things that I do, 1934 01:44:27,720 --> 01:44:31,360 Speaker 1: and writing the book was one of them. Okay, if 1935 01:44:31,360 --> 01:44:34,719 Speaker 1: someone calls you up to write a song talking about 1936 01:44:34,760 --> 01:44:38,640 Speaker 1: the economics when we had physical media on an album, 1937 01:44:39,120 --> 01:44:41,360 Speaker 1: a stiff made as much money, or an album track 1938 01:44:41,439 --> 01:44:45,080 Speaker 1: made as much money as the hit, whereas in streaming 1939 01:44:45,479 --> 01:44:49,800 Speaker 1: the hit is streamed many multiple times more. If I 1940 01:44:49,960 --> 01:44:52,719 Speaker 1: called you up and say, write a song on my album, 1941 01:44:53,000 --> 01:44:55,200 Speaker 1: would you first say are we writing the single? And 1942 01:44:55,240 --> 01:44:58,679 Speaker 1: if we're not writing the single, I'm not interested. I've 1943 01:44:58,760 --> 01:45:04,240 Speaker 1: heard that from other songwriters. Um, I don't know if 1944 01:45:04,240 --> 01:45:06,720 Speaker 1: I'd be that sort of blatant at that. That just 1945 01:45:06,720 --> 01:45:08,599 Speaker 1: seems like, well, you know, you still got to write 1946 01:45:08,680 --> 01:45:14,360 Speaker 1: for the pleasure and the art of it. But I 1947 01:45:14,400 --> 01:45:16,360 Speaker 1: would hope that I would write it, just have the 1948 01:45:16,400 --> 01:45:18,639 Speaker 1: ability to write a song that which is obviously they'd 1949 01:45:18,640 --> 01:45:20,719 Speaker 1: have to make it a single because it'd be that good. 1950 01:45:21,520 --> 01:45:24,160 Speaker 1: You know. I try not to write bad songs anymore, honestly. 1951 01:45:25,280 --> 01:45:28,200 Speaker 1: You know, like I said before, it's not about the 1952 01:45:28,479 --> 01:45:32,960 Speaker 1: quantity as much as the quality. So I mean, how 1953 01:45:33,000 --> 01:45:34,560 Speaker 1: do you say to someone I have to write the 1954 01:45:34,560 --> 01:45:36,840 Speaker 1: first single or I'm not doing that. It's like, we'll 1955 01:45:36,840 --> 01:45:38,639 Speaker 1: write the song first and we'll tell you if it's 1956 01:45:38,680 --> 01:45:40,680 Speaker 1: good enough, and then you know, and how do you 1957 01:45:40,840 --> 01:45:42,920 Speaker 1: sort of say that, I'm so famous as a writer, 1958 01:45:43,120 --> 01:45:45,599 Speaker 1: my song has to be I mean, that's pretty nervy, 1959 01:45:45,880 --> 01:45:51,160 Speaker 1: you know, And maybe maybe some writers say that it 1960 01:45:51,240 --> 01:45:54,120 Speaker 1: is nervy, but there's only twenty four hours in a day. 1961 01:45:54,400 --> 01:45:57,280 Speaker 1: And other people say, well, I'd rather write a Broadway musical, 1962 01:45:57,360 --> 01:45:59,400 Speaker 1: or I'd rather do this, or rather do that. I 1963 01:45:59,400 --> 01:46:02,519 Speaker 1: don't want to take the time because it might be 1964 01:46:02,720 --> 01:46:06,920 Speaker 1: economically unfruitful in addition to eating up someone my time. 1965 01:46:07,920 --> 01:46:11,439 Speaker 1: I have the perfect answer for that. Actually, if the 1966 01:46:11,479 --> 01:46:12,880 Speaker 1: way I feel now is I like to write on 1967 01:46:12,920 --> 01:46:15,040 Speaker 1: my own. If I'm going to write with someone else, 1968 01:46:15,080 --> 01:46:16,680 Speaker 1: it has to be one of two things for me 1969 01:46:16,760 --> 01:46:18,960 Speaker 1: to do it now, because I don't need to write anymore, 1970 01:46:19,240 --> 01:46:23,080 Speaker 1: you know, cash that I'm fine whatever, And that doesn't 1971 01:46:23,120 --> 01:46:25,360 Speaker 1: mean I don't keep writing, but you know, it's like 1972 01:46:25,439 --> 01:46:27,840 Speaker 1: for my pleasures different than if I'm going to get 1973 01:46:27,880 --> 01:46:30,160 Speaker 1: it out there and sell it and all that. It 1974 01:46:30,320 --> 01:46:32,240 Speaker 1: Either it either has to be a new artist that 1975 01:46:32,320 --> 01:46:34,679 Speaker 1: I think is so talented that I believe in them 1976 01:46:34,760 --> 01:46:37,559 Speaker 1: and I'll write with them, or I want to write 1977 01:46:37,560 --> 01:46:40,960 Speaker 1: with like the big artists. You know, I'm good enough. 1978 01:46:40,960 --> 01:46:43,519 Speaker 1: And if if I can't do that, I don't I 1979 01:46:43,520 --> 01:46:45,120 Speaker 1: don't want to write with like you know, some label 1980 01:46:45,120 --> 01:46:46,960 Speaker 1: are going to send over one of like how many, 1981 01:46:47,880 --> 01:46:50,160 Speaker 1: although they don't even really sign that many fans anymore. 1982 01:46:50,840 --> 01:46:52,439 Speaker 1: I want to I have a list of people that 1983 01:46:52,520 --> 01:46:54,400 Speaker 1: I want to work with right now that I haven't 1984 01:46:54,439 --> 01:46:56,479 Speaker 1: worked with, and I know I could write a hit 1985 01:46:56,520 --> 01:46:59,680 Speaker 1: song with them, and I think they would benefit from 1986 01:46:59,760 --> 01:47:04,479 Speaker 1: my style of writing. Do you want to know who 1987 01:47:04,520 --> 01:47:08,880 Speaker 1: some of them are? Surely it is okay. I would 1988 01:47:08,880 --> 01:47:12,040 Speaker 1: love to work with Lady Gaga. I was really a 1989 01:47:12,080 --> 01:47:15,200 Speaker 1: fan like of her early artsy stuff, you know, and 1990 01:47:15,240 --> 01:47:17,280 Speaker 1: like even when she was doing Bad Romance. I think 1991 01:47:17,600 --> 01:47:20,200 Speaker 1: lately she's doing like a lot of ballads and all that, 1992 01:47:20,280 --> 01:47:23,640 Speaker 1: and she's sort of, you know, she's become so conservative, 1993 01:47:23,800 --> 01:47:26,120 Speaker 1: like whether it's working with Tony who I love Tony 1994 01:47:26,160 --> 01:47:30,040 Speaker 1: Bennett or whatever. She's a chameleon. But I like the 1995 01:47:30,160 --> 01:47:33,160 Speaker 1: artsy side of her and I would love to write 1996 01:47:33,200 --> 01:47:35,160 Speaker 1: with her. I think we'd write some killer songs together. 1997 01:47:35,680 --> 01:47:38,360 Speaker 1: So she's one I would love to work with. Trent Resner. 1998 01:47:38,439 --> 01:47:41,840 Speaker 1: I think he's just so talented. I mean he's done 1999 01:47:41,880 --> 01:47:44,639 Speaker 1: everything from nine inch Nails to doing film scoring, and 2000 01:47:45,160 --> 01:47:47,240 Speaker 1: you know, I love the record he did with Halsey 2001 01:47:47,960 --> 01:47:51,000 Speaker 1: just for the sheer pleasure of working with him. I 2002 01:47:51,040 --> 01:47:53,080 Speaker 1: would love to work with him. I'd love to work 2003 01:47:53,120 --> 01:47:56,880 Speaker 1: with some of the more commercial artists like Kelly Clarkson 2004 01:47:57,520 --> 01:48:01,000 Speaker 1: and Adele. You know, I feel as a woman, I 2005 01:48:01,040 --> 01:48:02,760 Speaker 1: have a lot in common with them. We're all like 2006 01:48:02,880 --> 01:48:05,800 Speaker 1: women raising kids on our own, and we're all like, 2007 01:48:06,000 --> 01:48:08,200 Speaker 1: you know, when the doors are closed, we're we can 2008 01:48:08,240 --> 01:48:11,960 Speaker 1: be just as trashy and funny. And you know, I 2009 01:48:12,000 --> 01:48:15,479 Speaker 1: think they as people we would get along. And because 2010 01:48:15,640 --> 01:48:17,920 Speaker 1: if we got along as people and we're good at 2011 01:48:17,960 --> 01:48:20,679 Speaker 1: what we do, we would write ahead. That's the soup 2012 01:48:20,840 --> 01:48:22,360 Speaker 1: that you want to make. And that's what was so 2013 01:48:22,439 --> 01:48:25,439 Speaker 1: great with heart, you know, and we talked. I you know, 2014 01:48:25,560 --> 01:48:27,519 Speaker 1: that's one of my favorite chapters in the book, The 2015 01:48:27,560 --> 01:48:30,880 Speaker 1: Thirty Toes. It's like you have a connection and then 2016 01:48:31,200 --> 01:48:34,560 Speaker 1: with that connection and that that's what they talk about chemistry, 2017 01:48:34,600 --> 01:48:37,120 Speaker 1: you know, like when you know people meet and oh 2018 01:48:37,160 --> 01:48:40,439 Speaker 1: we have chemistry. It's the same exact thing as a writer. 2019 01:48:40,600 --> 01:48:43,960 Speaker 1: And I think, I know, I mean, like I said, 2020 01:48:44,000 --> 01:48:47,000 Speaker 1: they're still to this day at my age that I'm 2021 01:48:47,200 --> 01:48:50,120 Speaker 1: vulnerable about, but songwriting is not one of them. It's like, 2022 01:48:50,240 --> 01:48:52,479 Speaker 1: put me in the room with them, and I'll hit 2023 01:48:52,520 --> 01:48:55,280 Speaker 1: it out of the park. But those opportunities aren't you 2024 01:48:55,680 --> 01:48:58,800 Speaker 1: think I'm in the Songwriters Hall of Fame, you know? Um, 2025 01:48:59,760 --> 01:49:01,519 Speaker 1: I know there are other writers out there that can 2026 01:49:01,560 --> 01:49:03,120 Speaker 1: just pick up the phone and say, you know, I 2027 01:49:03,160 --> 01:49:05,760 Speaker 1: have blah blah. It's not that easy as you would think, 2028 01:49:06,760 --> 01:49:08,840 Speaker 1: you know. And even if I go to primary way 2029 01:49:08,880 --> 01:49:12,000 Speaker 1: for something, just to make it happen to that, I'm 2030 01:49:12,080 --> 01:49:13,680 Speaker 1: having to do now what I had to do when 2031 01:49:13,720 --> 01:49:15,559 Speaker 1: I was young and I was hungry. I am having 2032 01:49:15,600 --> 01:49:18,040 Speaker 1: to come up with different ways to reach out to 2033 01:49:18,120 --> 01:49:21,000 Speaker 1: an artist and get their attention. And that is also 2034 01:49:21,080 --> 01:49:24,880 Speaker 1: another reason, which was your very first question, why now, 2035 01:49:24,920 --> 01:49:27,200 Speaker 1: why did you write this book? Because I want to 2036 01:49:27,200 --> 01:49:31,200 Speaker 1: get the attentions of some of those people, hopefully in 2037 01:49:31,280 --> 01:49:36,120 Speaker 1: some way, so I can write with them. So your 2038 01:49:36,200 --> 01:49:40,160 Speaker 1: kids are grown, what's your day to day life like now? 2039 01:49:40,520 --> 01:49:45,679 Speaker 1: And how often do you sit down to write songs? Well, 2040 01:49:45,720 --> 01:49:47,759 Speaker 1: you know, the last couple of years it was totally 2041 01:49:47,800 --> 01:49:50,960 Speaker 1: devoted to writing this book. And as I said, I 2042 01:49:50,960 --> 01:49:53,599 Speaker 1: wrote about one hundred pages more than my editor just said. 2043 01:49:53,680 --> 01:49:56,439 Speaker 1: You kept trimming it down and trimming it down. And 2044 01:49:56,800 --> 01:49:59,519 Speaker 1: what I like about that? Some reader wrote some review 2045 01:49:59,560 --> 01:50:02,960 Speaker 1: and he said, Holly Knight's book is just like her 2046 01:50:03,400 --> 01:50:07,479 Speaker 1: songs All Killer and no Villa. I thought that was 2047 01:50:07,880 --> 01:50:10,280 Speaker 1: he They're right, you know. It's like I don't know 2048 01:50:10,320 --> 01:50:13,479 Speaker 1: how many books I've read that are you know, memories 2049 01:50:13,520 --> 01:50:15,920 Speaker 1: that it's like they start out with a bang, but 2050 01:50:15,960 --> 01:50:18,720 Speaker 1: then they sort of settle into this sort of like normality. 2051 01:50:18,720 --> 01:50:20,920 Speaker 1: If this one got to this place on the hits 2052 01:50:20,920 --> 01:50:24,280 Speaker 1: and gets really boring, it's like I tried to write 2053 01:50:24,280 --> 01:50:27,320 Speaker 1: that book, so it was like boom boom, boom boom done. 2054 01:50:27,840 --> 01:50:32,280 Speaker 1: You know. So anyway, in answer to your question, that 2055 01:50:32,400 --> 01:50:34,160 Speaker 1: took up a lot of my time. But a typical day, 2056 01:50:34,400 --> 01:50:37,000 Speaker 1: I got a dog during the pandemic. I know you're 2057 01:50:37,000 --> 01:50:39,320 Speaker 1: not a dog person, but this one is sort of 2058 01:50:40,080 --> 01:50:44,240 Speaker 1: this close to a wolf. And I had this one 2059 01:50:44,240 --> 01:50:46,639 Speaker 1: thing in my book that says it's at the very beginning, 2060 01:50:46,640 --> 01:50:49,519 Speaker 1: and it has a sword and it says you've seen it. 2061 01:50:49,520 --> 01:50:52,080 Speaker 1: It says, you can't throw me to the wolves. They 2062 01:50:52,080 --> 01:50:54,880 Speaker 1: come when I call. So I have this relationship with 2063 01:50:54,960 --> 01:50:57,760 Speaker 1: this this dog that takes up a lot of time, 2064 01:50:57,800 --> 01:50:59,680 Speaker 1: and like two hours a day I have to go 2065 01:51:00,120 --> 01:51:02,840 Speaker 1: hiking or walking with her because if I don't show 2066 01:51:02,880 --> 01:51:06,360 Speaker 1: she's a husky. She'll destroy my house. So I get 2067 01:51:06,400 --> 01:51:08,800 Speaker 1: I bike ride a lot. I go. I live in 2068 01:51:08,840 --> 01:51:11,000 Speaker 1: the Palisades, so I go down to the beach and 2069 01:51:11,080 --> 01:51:13,920 Speaker 1: I'll ride my bike early in the morning. So that's 2070 01:51:13,960 --> 01:51:16,680 Speaker 1: one of my rituals, you know, and then I'll come 2071 01:51:16,680 --> 01:51:18,680 Speaker 1: home and I'll answer my emails. And I have a 2072 01:51:18,680 --> 01:51:21,880 Speaker 1: lot of different projects on the table right now that 2073 01:51:22,439 --> 01:51:24,640 Speaker 1: are offshoots and what's coming out of the book. So 2074 01:51:24,680 --> 01:51:27,920 Speaker 1: I'm kind of focusing on that. But I woke up 2075 01:51:27,920 --> 01:51:30,920 Speaker 1: the other day and I thought, you know what, it's 2076 01:51:30,960 --> 01:51:33,960 Speaker 1: time to get back to songwriting. Not because I need to, 2077 01:51:34,080 --> 01:51:36,679 Speaker 1: but just because I miss it, you know, I miss 2078 01:51:37,600 --> 01:51:39,920 Speaker 1: I miss that feeling I get when I tapped into 2079 01:51:39,960 --> 01:51:44,960 Speaker 1: that ether and stuff. And so I think that I'm 2080 01:51:45,000 --> 01:51:47,360 Speaker 1: going to focus on that a lot. I love to travel. 2081 01:51:47,439 --> 01:51:50,320 Speaker 1: I'm really into photography. I have a photography website and 2082 01:51:50,360 --> 01:51:53,840 Speaker 1: I do fine art photography and I take it pretty seriously. 2083 01:51:54,040 --> 01:51:56,880 Speaker 1: And you know, as long as it's creative, as long 2084 01:51:56,920 --> 01:51:59,679 Speaker 1: as I can do things, and it's creative, like always 2085 01:51:59,720 --> 01:52:03,880 Speaker 1: create and doing things, I'm happy, you know. So that's 2086 01:52:03,880 --> 01:52:07,240 Speaker 1: about it. I mean, I'm getting older and just doing 2087 01:52:07,280 --> 01:52:10,200 Speaker 1: normal things like everybody else, the little things that you 2088 01:52:10,280 --> 01:52:14,599 Speaker 1: love to do. Oh okay, as one gets older, Let's 2089 01:52:14,600 --> 01:52:18,280 Speaker 1: put it this way, the scene of the eighties is gone. Okay, 2090 01:52:18,400 --> 01:52:22,200 Speaker 1: the Internet era. You can stay home and have connection 2091 01:52:22,360 --> 01:52:24,600 Speaker 1: whereas you used to have to go out. This is 2092 01:52:24,680 --> 01:52:29,400 Speaker 1: ultimately asking you how social are you today? Part of 2093 01:52:29,400 --> 01:52:31,800 Speaker 1: it is age, part of it scene being changed. Are 2094 01:52:31,800 --> 01:52:35,120 Speaker 1: you more of a homebody? In addition or writing is 2095 01:52:35,160 --> 01:52:40,920 Speaker 1: a relatively private thing. I'm a little bit abouth, you know, 2096 01:52:41,520 --> 01:52:44,320 Speaker 1: but I am very much a homebody, you know, I 2097 01:52:44,360 --> 01:52:48,040 Speaker 1: think because I left home so young, and I always 2098 01:52:48,080 --> 01:52:51,160 Speaker 1: lived in you know, I live in one place for 2099 01:52:51,280 --> 01:52:53,360 Speaker 1: five years, then move on this place I've lived in 2100 01:52:53,439 --> 01:52:57,599 Speaker 1: for twenty five years, and you know, over time, I've 2101 01:52:57,640 --> 01:53:00,439 Speaker 1: just like every year I remodel another room and more 2102 01:53:00,479 --> 01:53:03,559 Speaker 1: and more mine and um during the pandemic, I really 2103 01:53:04,000 --> 01:53:06,840 Speaker 1: I did that a lot. So everybody that comes to 2104 01:53:06,920 --> 01:53:08,840 Speaker 1: my house is like, yeah, well, why would you leave? 2105 01:53:09,120 --> 01:53:12,080 Speaker 1: You've got your recording. I have an incredible recording studio, 2106 01:53:12,160 --> 01:53:15,680 Speaker 1: in a incredible kitchen. I have incredible hikes everywhere. I 2107 01:53:15,680 --> 01:53:18,720 Speaker 1: can go swimming in my poll I've got so I do. 2108 01:53:18,920 --> 01:53:21,559 Speaker 1: Because of that, I tend to, you know, get a 2109 01:53:21,560 --> 01:53:25,240 Speaker 1: little antisocial. But then then I really love to go 2110 01:53:25,280 --> 01:53:27,920 Speaker 1: out too and and and be social, but I can 2111 01:53:27,960 --> 01:53:30,320 Speaker 1: only do it for so long. Like where when I 2112 01:53:30,360 --> 01:53:32,000 Speaker 1: was younger, I would do it every night, and I 2113 01:53:32,040 --> 01:53:34,439 Speaker 1: would be out till five or six in the morning 2114 01:53:34,439 --> 01:53:36,960 Speaker 1: and then go to the cab breakfast before i'd go home. 2115 01:53:37,479 --> 01:53:39,560 Speaker 1: Now it's like find the time it gets to be 2116 01:53:39,600 --> 01:53:42,000 Speaker 1: about like eleven or something. I'm like a wiped out, 2117 01:53:42,280 --> 01:53:45,200 Speaker 1: you know, but I wake up early. I wake up, 2118 01:53:45,240 --> 01:53:47,439 Speaker 1: like at six in the morning, not because I want to, 2119 01:53:47,640 --> 01:53:51,120 Speaker 1: but because my body just is making me, you know. 2120 01:53:52,080 --> 01:53:55,920 Speaker 1: So Um, in that way, I'm pretty normal, you know. 2121 01:53:56,000 --> 01:54:00,360 Speaker 1: I'm you know, you can't live a life of like 2122 01:54:00,640 --> 01:54:04,639 Speaker 1: insane this forever. It just doesn't. Your body can't take it, 2123 01:54:04,760 --> 01:54:08,360 Speaker 1: you know. But I'd say, I'm I'm pretty normal. Okay, 2124 01:54:08,439 --> 01:54:12,320 Speaker 1: So we're doing this podcast actually at my incentive, I 2125 01:54:12,400 --> 01:54:17,440 Speaker 1: asked you. But getting the word out is almost impossible 2126 01:54:17,479 --> 01:54:21,200 Speaker 1: these days, and as sophisticated as the music businesses and 2127 01:54:21,320 --> 01:54:24,200 Speaker 1: all the complaints we have that, the book business is 2128 01:54:24,240 --> 01:54:27,439 Speaker 1: even more antique. So how have you gotten the word out? 2129 01:54:27,439 --> 01:54:33,160 Speaker 1: And as it worked, Um, I hired a PR person, 2130 01:54:33,480 --> 01:54:38,560 Speaker 1: and unfortunately I've gotten more podcasts casts than you can imagine, 2131 01:54:38,600 --> 01:54:42,200 Speaker 1: but they're not I wouldn't say they're the caliber. And 2132 01:54:42,320 --> 01:54:44,680 Speaker 1: this one and this is a this is a big, 2133 01:54:44,840 --> 01:54:47,000 Speaker 1: a big one for me. You know. Um, what I 2134 01:54:47,040 --> 01:54:49,120 Speaker 1: really wanted to do was I wanted them to get 2135 01:54:49,160 --> 01:54:52,600 Speaker 1: me in things like Rolling Stone with an excert or something. 2136 01:54:52,640 --> 01:54:56,000 Speaker 1: And it's like, oh my god, it's so it's so hard. 2137 01:54:56,080 --> 01:54:59,640 Speaker 1: It's just it's unbelievable. So, you know, Brick by Brick, 2138 01:54:59,680 --> 01:55:02,680 Speaker 1: I've doing these podcasts. And the good thing is that 2139 01:55:03,720 --> 01:55:07,400 Speaker 1: in on Amazon it was listed as number one for 2140 01:55:07,520 --> 01:55:12,040 Speaker 1: hot New releases in music, so that's good. The same 2141 01:55:12,080 --> 01:55:15,680 Speaker 1: thing with Audible was number one for hot new releases. 2142 01:55:15,800 --> 01:55:19,680 Speaker 1: But whether that sells books or not, I don't know. 2143 01:55:19,720 --> 01:55:22,800 Speaker 1: I mean, I could pick your brain about that, because 2144 01:55:22,800 --> 01:55:25,600 Speaker 1: it's not easy. I mean unless you're a huge household 2145 01:55:25,720 --> 01:55:29,280 Speaker 1: name or your Prince Harry or something, or Pamela Anderson 2146 01:55:30,080 --> 01:55:33,040 Speaker 1: trying to you know, it's a slow process trying to 2147 01:55:33,040 --> 01:55:35,720 Speaker 1: get your book out there and doing the right pieces. 2148 01:55:35,760 --> 01:55:39,200 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm hoping to get some more reviews on 2149 01:55:39,240 --> 01:55:42,280 Speaker 1: the book. I've got a lot of reviews, but they're readers, 2150 01:55:42,320 --> 01:55:46,240 Speaker 1: which is actually the most important. But you know, I'm 2151 01:55:46,320 --> 01:55:49,480 Speaker 1: still working on that. I'm hoping that. I think the 2152 01:55:49,520 --> 01:55:53,600 Speaker 1: next big search for books book sales is Mother's Day 2153 01:55:53,920 --> 01:55:58,760 Speaker 1: and I think that would be hopefully, you know, I'll 2154 01:55:58,760 --> 01:56:01,280 Speaker 1: get more pr and things. I mean, all you can 2155 01:56:01,320 --> 01:56:03,440 Speaker 1: do is what you can do. I've done the job. 2156 01:56:03,600 --> 01:56:08,040 Speaker 1: I'm doing social media, which I hate, but I'm doing 2157 01:56:08,040 --> 01:56:10,240 Speaker 1: a lot of it and I'm paying someone to do right. 2158 01:56:10,280 --> 01:56:12,400 Speaker 1: So you know, I've got Instagram and I've got Twitter, 2159 01:56:12,520 --> 01:56:16,080 Speaker 1: and you know, the numbers are starting to grow, But 2160 01:56:16,160 --> 01:56:19,440 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean. Look, it's like anybody to go on 2161 01:56:19,560 --> 01:56:23,560 Speaker 1: social media and they'll hit like, but to actually follow you, 2162 01:56:24,480 --> 01:56:27,080 Speaker 1: that's a big commitment. And I'm the same way. Like 2163 01:56:27,120 --> 01:56:29,440 Speaker 1: I can say I like something that someone said, but 2164 01:56:29,480 --> 01:56:32,880 Speaker 1: to follow them that means now every day their streams 2165 01:56:32,880 --> 01:56:34,920 Speaker 1: are going to be taking up my time in invading 2166 01:56:35,400 --> 01:56:37,520 Speaker 1: my life. So do I commit to that or not? 2167 01:56:39,120 --> 01:56:42,600 Speaker 1: So it's I think it's just tough out there for everybody, 2168 01:56:42,600 --> 01:56:45,360 Speaker 1: and you just hope it's like the thing with the best. 2169 01:56:45,400 --> 01:56:48,360 Speaker 1: You hope you hit the jog or not of some nerve. 2170 01:56:49,080 --> 01:56:52,080 Speaker 1: Am I saying that right jug or not? Jug? You 2171 01:56:52,120 --> 01:56:54,440 Speaker 1: said a little jail, But I wouldn't have stopped you 2172 01:56:54,480 --> 01:56:57,680 Speaker 1: if you hadn't stopped yourself. Yeah. Yeah, Well it was 2173 01:56:57,680 --> 01:56:59,600 Speaker 1: funny when I did the audible book and I got 2174 01:56:59,640 --> 01:57:03,320 Speaker 1: to where I had written albeit, I said I'll bite, 2175 01:57:03,440 --> 01:57:07,680 Speaker 1: and the producer was like cracking up. I said, I, 2176 01:57:08,400 --> 01:57:10,920 Speaker 1: how do you pronounce it? Tell me please? I knew that, 2177 01:57:11,640 --> 01:57:14,640 Speaker 1: so I tend to do that. But um, you know, 2178 01:57:14,760 --> 01:57:18,720 Speaker 1: just hoping that something happens, one thing where just enough 2179 01:57:18,760 --> 01:57:21,040 Speaker 1: attention happens that people go out and buy it, because 2180 01:57:21,080 --> 01:57:23,840 Speaker 1: I think the people that are going out and buying 2181 01:57:23,840 --> 01:57:27,000 Speaker 1: it are loving it, you know, really really loving it. 2182 01:57:27,000 --> 01:57:30,520 Speaker 1: I've gotten so many great, like you know, fan letters 2183 01:57:30,520 --> 01:57:33,960 Speaker 1: and responses on it. But I don't want it to 2184 01:57:34,000 --> 01:57:36,200 Speaker 1: just sit there like I want it to be big, 2185 01:57:36,320 --> 01:57:41,320 Speaker 1: you know. Um. I have like one project that possibly 2186 01:57:41,440 --> 01:57:43,560 Speaker 1: might happen that's going to come as an offshoot of this, 2187 01:57:43,600 --> 01:57:45,720 Speaker 1: which would be great that I can't really talk about. 2188 01:57:45,760 --> 01:57:48,760 Speaker 1: But that might be the thing that then turns around 2189 01:57:48,800 --> 01:57:52,760 Speaker 1: it sells a book. Do you have any suggestions? Let's 2190 01:57:52,760 --> 01:57:55,240 Speaker 1: put it this way. We can talk off Mike about 2191 01:57:55,280 --> 01:57:59,320 Speaker 1: all this stuff, but there is no silver bullet, and 2192 01:57:59,480 --> 01:58:02,960 Speaker 1: selling book is even harder than selling a record, and 2193 01:58:03,040 --> 01:58:06,240 Speaker 1: selling a record is very difficult at this point in time. 2194 01:58:06,760 --> 01:58:11,520 Speaker 1: The only thing I know about publishing is it's you. 2195 01:58:11,520 --> 01:58:13,880 Speaker 1: You have to do everything. Whereas you know when some 2196 01:58:13,960 --> 01:58:17,240 Speaker 1: of these other businesses, the third parties can get action, 2197 01:58:17,360 --> 01:58:21,000 Speaker 1: but it's very old school. We can get an initial 2198 01:58:21,080 --> 01:58:25,280 Speaker 1: push and then it's all in your hands. Anyway, Holly, 2199 01:58:25,320 --> 01:58:27,840 Speaker 1: I want to thank you so much for taking the 2200 01:58:27,920 --> 01:58:32,000 Speaker 1: time and talking with my audience. Thank you so much 2201 01:58:32,040 --> 01:58:34,080 Speaker 1: for having me. I was so excited when you invited me. 2202 01:58:34,200 --> 01:58:37,760 Speaker 1: I think you're a badass. I really love reading your 2203 01:58:39,160 --> 01:58:42,600 Speaker 1: emails you send out and your blogs and somebody I've 2204 01:58:42,960 --> 01:58:46,480 Speaker 1: read them and going yes, you know, there's been a 2205 01:58:46,480 --> 01:58:51,680 Speaker 1: few I went no, no, and then yeah, of course 2206 01:58:51,880 --> 01:58:55,080 Speaker 1: because we're both you know, we're both passionate and smart. 2207 01:58:55,200 --> 01:58:58,760 Speaker 1: So but no, I'm a fan, and thank you so 2208 01:58:58,880 --> 01:59:03,200 Speaker 1: much for inviting me to do this. Absolutely until next time, 2209 01:59:03,440 --> 01:59:26,720 Speaker 1: it's Bob left six h