WEBVTT - Gilbert King presents: Bone Valley Season 3 | Graves County 0:00:01.120 --> 0:00:04.520 Hey, it's Gilbert King, host of Bone Valley, and today 0:00:04.519 --> 0:00:07.920 we're bringing you something new, an introduction to Lava for 0:00:07.960 --> 0:00:12.239 Good's newest investigative series. It's called Graves County and it 0:00:12.280 --> 0:00:15.000 will be released right here in the Bone Valley Feed. 0:00:15.840 --> 0:00:18.560 You'll see it shown here as Bone Valley Season three. 0:00:19.079 --> 0:00:21.720 And while there are many familiar themes, this is an 0:00:21.880 --> 0:00:25.880 entirely new show told by a different host, Maggie Freeling, 0:00:26.320 --> 0:00:28.920 Pulitzer Prize winning journalist and one of the hosts of 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:32.960 Lava for Goods Wrongful Conviction. The story is about the 0:00:33.040 --> 0:00:36.400 murder of a young mother, Jessica Currn, in the small 0:00:36.479 --> 0:00:39.760 Kentucky town she lived in a place where it seems 0:00:39.840 --> 0:00:43.360 like everyone has a connection to this case. After four 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:48.080 years of grossly mismanaged police investigation, a citizen sleuth named 0:00:48.080 --> 0:00:51.000 Susan Goalbrath stepped in and took the case in a 0:00:51.040 --> 0:00:55.680 new direction. She concocted a wildly complicated story, and the 0:00:55.720 --> 0:00:59.480 police decided to go along with it. Susan's version of 0:00:59.520 --> 0:01:03.400 events eventually led to at least eight different people being 0:01:03.520 --> 0:01:07.640 charged with Jessica's murder. Most of them have maintained their 0:01:07.680 --> 0:01:11.880 innocence from the beginning, and one of them, Quincy Cross, 0:01:12.319 --> 0:01:16.759 is still fighting for his freedom from behind bars. Graves 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:20.880 County is a gripping, impeccably reported story of injustice that 0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:26.520 must be heard to be believed. Maggie Freeling brings urgency, compassion, 0:01:26.840 --> 0:01:29.920 and relentless journalism to a case that will stay with 0:01:29.959 --> 0:01:34.800 you long after the final episode. The first two episodes 0:01:34.840 --> 0:01:38.400 of Graves County will be out on July thirtieth, right 0:01:38.440 --> 0:01:42.360 here in the Bone Valley Feed. Subscribers to Lava for 0:01:42.400 --> 0:01:45.720 Good plus on Apple Podcasts will be able to listen 0:01:45.720 --> 0:01:49.360 to the entire series the same day. As an introduction 0:01:49.520 --> 0:01:52.200 to the new series, I sat down with Maggie for 0:01:52.240 --> 0:01:55.480 a Q and A about her experience of reporting this 0:01:55.560 --> 0:01:59.280 show for over two years in what she learned along 0:01:59.320 --> 0:02:07.720 the way. Maggie, is so great to see you, so 0:02:07.800 --> 0:02:09.920 great to speak with you again. I've been listening to 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:12.520 Graves County. I'm like four episodes in it. I am hooked, 0:02:12.880 --> 0:02:15.200 and you've been working so hard on this. This is 0:02:15.600 --> 0:02:18.200 a huge investigation for you. I just can't wait to 0:02:18.200 --> 0:02:19.560 ask you a million questions about this. 0:02:20.360 --> 0:02:22.080 Ask away. I love talking about it. 0:02:22.560 --> 0:02:24.280 I can just walk us through the case, just to 0:02:24.280 --> 0:02:26.040 give us a general sense of what this case is 0:02:26.080 --> 0:02:26.600 really about. 0:02:26.800 --> 0:02:29.760 Yes, So, in the summer two thousand, Jessica Kern is 0:02:29.760 --> 0:02:32.239 an eighteen year old mom. She just had her baby, Zion, 0:02:33.040 --> 0:02:38.760 and she is found brutally murdered and burned, half dressed 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:43.160 outside the Mayfield Middle School. And Susan Golbreath was just 0:02:43.200 --> 0:02:45.080 a woman in the town. Her life was not going 0:02:45.080 --> 0:02:47.920 great at the time. She needed purpose, and her purpose 0:02:48.080 --> 0:02:51.200 was I'm going to solve this case. That was around 0:02:51.200 --> 0:02:54.080 two thousand and four. After the police had initially bungled 0:02:54.160 --> 0:02:57.920 the case, they hired a rookie detective. They made some 0:02:57.960 --> 0:03:01.359 initial arrests and it went no So by two thousand 0:03:01.360 --> 0:03:04.680 and four, the citizens Luth gets involved. She involves a 0:03:04.720 --> 0:03:08.640 BBC reporter and they go on a hunt to solve 0:03:09.160 --> 0:03:15.600 the case. And what transpires is some of the craziest 0:03:16.440 --> 0:03:20.560 case solving techniques I've ever seen, the craziest quote journalism 0:03:20.639 --> 0:03:24.360 I've ever seen, and just some of the craziest investigating 0:03:24.360 --> 0:03:27.760 and policing I've ever seen. And it's all on tape 0:03:28.200 --> 0:03:32.320 and documented in emails and so it was it was 0:03:32.320 --> 0:03:37.280 pretty incredible to make this story and like have everyone's 0:03:37.360 --> 0:03:43.400 follies just right there, just documented so well. 0:03:43.680 --> 0:03:46.320 So Maggie, I just was really curious about Susan Goalbreth 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:49.800 and she's, you know, the amateur sleuth who helped solve 0:03:49.800 --> 0:03:51.560 the eight year old murder of a teenage mom. But 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:56.000 what drives an everyday citizen to get involved in a 0:03:56.080 --> 0:03:59.680 murder case like this? And obviously I think she passed 0:03:59.720 --> 0:04:02.000 away before you got to meet her, but you've obviously 0:04:02.080 --> 0:04:04.600 been studying her. Can you just talk about Susan and 0:04:04.680 --> 0:04:06.600 what motivated her to get involved in this case. 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:10.040 Yeah, Susan is fascinating when people hear this. I mean, 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:14.240 she's a true character. She's you know, said that she 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:18.240 was compelled by God to solve this murder. She was 0:04:18.680 --> 0:04:23.040 down the street eating lunch and she heard in this 0:04:23.120 --> 0:04:25.080 small town that they found a body, and she went 0:04:25.240 --> 0:04:28.680 right to the scene and said, God called her to 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:32.680 solve this. What I think happened is so often we 0:04:32.760 --> 0:04:36.000 do see that when there is a void, when police 0:04:36.080 --> 0:04:38.320 in this case, they bungled it, or they bungle it, 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:40.039 or if they can't solve it, there is a void 0:04:40.120 --> 0:04:43.560 left and citizens, louths get involved. I mean we see 0:04:43.560 --> 0:04:45.880 it now on Reddit and all these crime pages. It's 0:04:46.400 --> 0:04:48.919 it's something that happens, and she was like a OG 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:51.880 one it was it was back in four she's an 0:04:51.920 --> 0:04:52.760 OG sleuth. 0:04:53.480 --> 0:04:55.960 How did like police law enforcement treat her like? What 0:04:56.000 --> 0:04:57.960 was their relationship like with her? They? 0:04:59.160 --> 0:05:05.120 I think they found her annoying based on these phone calls. 0:05:05.160 --> 0:05:08.960 I think they just wanted her to go away. However, 0:05:09.320 --> 0:05:12.480 you'll see as a story goes on, they really legitimized her. 0:05:12.680 --> 0:05:18.680 They took tips and leads, and ultimately her theory of 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:22.640 what happened is the theory that the prosecution went with. 0:05:23.720 --> 0:05:27.039 And she did have some tangential connections to people involved. 0:05:27.360 --> 0:05:30.400 Can you just talk about how she interacted with them 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:32.080 and maybe used them as sources. 0:05:32.800 --> 0:05:37.120 So, Susan, she's a self described busybody, and she knew 0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:38.760 a lot of people in town. She had been there 0:05:38.760 --> 0:05:41.080 a while. She's originally from Chicago, but she had been 0:05:41.080 --> 0:05:44.480 in Mayfield, small small town for a long time. So 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:48.560 she knew a lot of the people involved in this case, 0:05:48.560 --> 0:05:51.080 these young folks, because she was friends with one of 0:05:51.080 --> 0:05:54.200 their moms, and she just she was friends with a 0:05:54.240 --> 0:05:57.080 few of these kids' moms that were involved. She used 0:05:57.080 --> 0:06:02.600 her relationships with these people to get information and that 0:06:02.680 --> 0:06:05.880 came at a cost. I think these people eventually realized 0:06:05.920 --> 0:06:08.400 that she was taking advantage of them. 0:06:08.400 --> 0:06:11.120 Well, you've spent years, you know, covering the criminal justice system, 0:06:11.400 --> 0:06:14.960 and probably from all different parts of the country. I'm 0:06:15.000 --> 0:06:17.600 just curious, what about this case that stands out to you? 0:06:17.640 --> 0:06:19.480 What makes it different than a lot that you've seen. 0:06:20.279 --> 0:06:25.560 So when this case came to me, it came from 0:06:26.160 --> 0:06:29.960 Jason Flomm and when it was presented to me, I 0:06:30.080 --> 0:06:34.080 was basically told cop corruption. I hear that all the time. 0:06:35.279 --> 0:06:41.840 You know what stood out was the police legitimizing a 0:06:41.839 --> 0:06:48.120 citizen investigator, really using her, like wiring her. You'll hear 0:06:48.160 --> 0:06:50.839 that in the podcast. So that was fascinating to me. 0:06:50.920 --> 0:06:53.800 That was the first time I had really heard something 0:06:53.880 --> 0:06:57.440 like that where a citizen, someone who has no background 0:06:57.520 --> 0:07:01.920 in law enforcement, is wiring themselves up and giving police tape, 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:05.880 giving police leads, giving them full theories, and they're running 0:07:05.920 --> 0:07:10.520 with it. And the other thing was how many people 0:07:10.800 --> 0:07:16.160 were wrapped up in this story and how many people 0:07:16.600 --> 0:07:20.920 were eventually convicted of this one murder. When you think 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:25.800 of Okham's razor, it was certainly not the story that 0:07:26.400 --> 0:07:30.720 makes the most sense. It was just this wild story 0:07:30.840 --> 0:07:34.560 that implicated eight or nine people, and I mean more 0:07:34.800 --> 0:07:38.320 it does. It implicated countless people, but the amount of 0:07:38.360 --> 0:07:40.520 people amount to being convicted. I had not seen before 0:07:41.160 --> 0:07:44.040 five people we talk about in this story that were 0:07:44.080 --> 0:07:44.800 convicted of it. 0:07:45.600 --> 0:07:48.560 There's just like one mind blowing thing after another. I 0:07:48.680 --> 0:07:52.280 just heard that. You know, you talk to the lead 0:07:52.320 --> 0:07:54.840 investigator who basically says I didn't know what I was doing, 0:07:55.360 --> 0:07:57.440 telling everybody that I don't know what I'm doing tail 0:07:57.480 --> 0:08:00.840 in my head. I've never seen anything like that before. Like, 0:08:00.960 --> 0:08:02.240 what does that tell you when you. 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:04.120 Yeah, So that was one of the things that you 0:08:04.120 --> 0:08:09.160 know when they mentioned like this cop corruption. Okay, I'm interested, 0:08:09.680 --> 0:08:14.600 not unique, but that was unique about it was why 0:08:14.600 --> 0:08:20.840 did the assistant chief of police assign this case to 0:08:21.000 --> 0:08:26.600 a rookie? It seemed almost like you wanted this to 0:08:26.680 --> 0:08:29.600 be investigated poorly from the beginning if you're going to 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:32.880 assign a rookie and not some of your best, which 0:08:32.960 --> 0:08:35.320 in retrospect to looking back, I don't know if Mayfield 0:08:35.400 --> 0:08:38.360 Police at some of their best. They were really embroiled 0:08:38.400 --> 0:08:43.080 with scandals and corruption. And you know that assistant chief 0:08:43.080 --> 0:08:46.160 of police you'll hear in the podcast, was pretty dirty. 0:08:47.480 --> 0:08:49.760 I want to go back to journalists because you do 0:08:49.840 --> 0:08:52.760 have this international presence, but you also have the local presence. 0:08:53.120 --> 0:08:54.960 And I'm just wondering if you can just talk about 0:08:55.000 --> 0:08:59.080 like the role that journalism plays in a wrongful conviction 0:08:59.440 --> 0:09:02.360 and what you know noticed in this part of Kentucky. 0:09:02.520 --> 0:09:05.680 Yeah, so it is so interesting getting to travel and 0:09:05.720 --> 0:09:08.840 tell so many different stories. I know you really specialize 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:11.000 in Florida, which is so cool. I'm sure the amount 0:09:11.000 --> 0:09:14.800 of connections in Florida are amazing. This was my first 0:09:14.840 --> 0:09:19.280 time in Kentucky and I don't as a journalist, I 0:09:19.280 --> 0:09:22.680 don't like to just parachute in and then leave. So 0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:25.040 I've really been working the story for two and a 0:09:25.080 --> 0:09:29.080 half years, getting to know people, done multiple multiple trips there, 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:34.079 and Kentucky is just a wild place. The lead prosecutor 0:09:34.200 --> 0:09:37.960 that convicted Quincy Cross in this case and the five 0:09:38.000 --> 0:09:41.080 other people, she's been in office since the early eighties, 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:44.559 I mean that is crazy to me. And now we're 0:09:44.559 --> 0:09:47.480 talking about five wrongful convictions from just this one case 0:09:47.640 --> 0:09:51.000 and you've been in office since the eighties? How many 0:09:51.040 --> 0:09:55.040 other people have you railroaded? So to me, that's just like, 0:09:56.080 --> 0:09:59.880 what how is that? Okay? How is that possible. That 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:03.640 is the context of this story, and that is so 0:10:03.679 --> 0:10:09.559 important to understand in order to understand Quincy and what happened. 0:10:10.040 --> 0:10:12.079 I mean, did you ever feel any resentment about there 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:14.480 because you're down there. Obviously you don't have a deadline 0:10:14.520 --> 0:10:16.880 of tomorrow and then maybe the case you don't write 0:10:16.920 --> 0:10:18.560 it about it again, or maybe the cover the trial 0:10:18.600 --> 0:10:21.280 in another year or something like that. You're actually doing 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:26.680 like long points of time studying this case, investigating this case. 0:10:28.200 --> 0:10:30.680 One of the things I noticed is that sometimes the 0:10:30.840 --> 0:10:34.760 local press they're friends with the prosecutors. Those are the 0:10:34.760 --> 0:10:36.679 people that are given them the stories, given them access, 0:10:37.200 --> 0:10:39.880 and the journalism has kind of tainted. Did you find 0:10:39.880 --> 0:10:41.560 the same thing in that part of Absolutely? 0:10:42.840 --> 0:10:45.560 I find that it's all tainted because in these small 0:10:46.040 --> 0:10:50.160 towns everyone knows each other. It is just like a 0:10:50.160 --> 0:10:54.880 spider web of people who know each other, people protecting 0:10:54.920 --> 0:10:59.400 each other. You know, all these shows about small, small 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:02.840 southern town to talk about that, and it is so real. 0:11:02.880 --> 0:11:05.800 It's very different from being in New York, where yes, 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:08.360 people they know each other. Of course there's quid quote pros, 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:10.559 but it's a it's a different kind of thing. It's 0:11:10.600 --> 0:11:13.600 not my family grew up with your family kind of situation, 0:11:13.800 --> 0:11:16.440 and I'm sure that exists, but the small town mentality, 0:11:17.559 --> 0:11:21.280 it really fosters an environment of secrecy. 0:11:22.000 --> 0:11:23.920 Yeah. I was thinking about that a lot while I 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:25.640 was listening to this, and I was just curious, like, 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:29.040 when you look at this whole Graves County story, do 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:32.400 you see it as like a tragedy, a conspiracy, a 0:11:32.800 --> 0:11:35.080 cautionary trade? How do you look at Graves County? 0:11:35.200 --> 0:11:37.079 I think it's I think it's all three. I think 0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:40.880 it's a tragedy, a conspiracy, and what was the. 0:11:40.840 --> 0:11:42.840 Other one, cautionary tale? 0:11:42.880 --> 0:11:44.000 Cautionary tale? 0:11:44.840 --> 0:11:45.000 You know. 0:11:45.080 --> 0:11:47.800 I think it's a tragedy because if you think of 0:11:47.840 --> 0:11:50.400 these five people whose lives were ruined that were convicted 0:11:50.440 --> 0:11:53.720 of this, each of those five people have family, Some 0:11:53.800 --> 0:11:56.560 of these people had kids, some of these people were kids, 0:11:57.720 --> 0:12:03.199 So just alone there, it's it's devastating. Definitely a conspiracy. 0:12:03.280 --> 0:12:07.160 There's some wacky stuff going on that you'll hear about. 0:12:07.280 --> 0:12:11.120 And I think it's a cautionary tale because it all 0:12:11.160 --> 0:12:16.480 started with just believing what we're told, you know, this 0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:19.720 like confirmation bias, and I think that is so much 0:12:19.920 --> 0:12:23.520 what happened in this Quincy was arrested and said he 0:12:23.559 --> 0:12:27.839 was an evil man, and from there on it was believed. 0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:31.200 And I think one of the things is that we 0:12:31.240 --> 0:12:36.560 see is an eighteen year old mother was murdered and 0:12:36.640 --> 0:12:41.319 people wanted justice, and it really was a cautionary tale 0:12:41.360 --> 0:12:44.040 of how far will we go to get that justice? 0:12:44.320 --> 0:12:47.280 How many people can we throw under the bus and 0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:50.760 railroad to close this one case? And we see that 0:12:50.800 --> 0:12:52.120 all the time in wrongful convictions. 0:12:53.240 --> 0:12:54.880 You know what I really love about it so far 0:12:55.040 --> 0:12:58.720 is You've made Graves County a character in the story, 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:00.920 and I just love the way comes to life. You know, 0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:06.120 there's definitely colorful people and accents, of course, but you 0:13:06.240 --> 0:13:07.840 just you start to get a sense of the county. 0:13:07.920 --> 0:13:10.560 And it made me think, I wonder, like, do you 0:13:10.600 --> 0:13:13.000 think that this story would have looked the same if 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:16.960 it was somewhere in like New England? What is it 0:13:16.960 --> 0:13:20.080 about Graves County that made this kind of story possible? 0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:22.920 I mean, Graves County is if you google it, it 0:13:23.040 --> 0:13:27.040 is the heart. It is the almost the dead center 0:13:27.120 --> 0:13:29.440 of this country. When I was like looking at a map, 0:13:29.440 --> 0:13:30.800 I was trying to figure out, like where's the center 0:13:30.840 --> 0:13:33.400 of this country? And Graves County is really right there. 0:13:35.800 --> 0:13:39.199 It's kind of the middle of nowhere, and so secrets 0:13:39.280 --> 0:13:45.240 like that can really be kept closed, they really stay there. 0:13:46.440 --> 0:13:49.439 It was so surprising to know people in this state 0:13:49.520 --> 0:13:53.040 didn't even know about this case, I mean, and the 0:13:53.040 --> 0:13:55.520 fact that it wasn't as high profile as I thought 0:13:55.520 --> 0:13:59.079 it should be. There's maybe like two TV shows on it, 0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:02.240 and both of them again just repeat the Quincy's a disgusting, 0:14:02.240 --> 0:14:05.599 horrible man. Repeat the story that the police and prosecutors 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:08.400 have been telling for years, despite the fact that he 0:14:08.440 --> 0:14:12.600 has innocence claims in so no, I think it would 0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:15.160 have been different, but who knows, for better or for worse. 0:14:16.240 --> 0:14:17.880 One of the things that's happened when I'm listening to 0:14:17.920 --> 0:14:20.440 this is like it seems like every episode my jaw dropped, 0:14:20.520 --> 0:14:22.600 kind of drops, like I've never heard recordings of grand 0:14:22.680 --> 0:14:26.680 jury testimony before like played out and then this Excusan 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:30.240 Goberth character, Like every every there's always some moment. I'm 0:14:30.280 --> 0:14:33.200 just wondering for you, having studied this case and investigated, 0:14:33.480 --> 0:14:36.080 was there anything that made your jaw drop having seen 0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:37.920 everything involved in this case or. 0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:44.880 You know, I think I think this case for me, 0:14:45.120 --> 0:14:48.600 it was like a very clear how do wrongful convictions 0:14:48.600 --> 0:14:50.920 happened because I lived this case for so long and 0:14:50.960 --> 0:14:55.880 watched every piece of tape, which was the most incredible 0:14:56.880 --> 0:15:03.280 thing to have every police interview. Let me say not 0:15:03.360 --> 0:15:07.800 every because we've discovered that some are quote missing can't 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:14.280 be found, but most of the tape, and watch the 0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:19.360 stories change, Watch how they're doing the interrogations. They are 0:15:19.400 --> 0:15:25.160 like the ultimate super villains. My jaw dropped every time 0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:28.360 they spoke, just every time they asked a question. It 0:15:28.400 --> 0:15:31.040 wasn't a question, It was just like threats and interrogations 0:15:31.080 --> 0:15:45.560 and just really inappropriate things. 0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:49.280 Is there anything that happened that sort of change your 0:15:49.400 --> 0:15:52.200 outlook or your opinion of anything involved in the case 0:15:52.440 --> 0:15:53.760 as you dug deeper into it. 0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:58.440 Well, I think just exploring this idea of what is 0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:03.080 our role as journals and how do we tell these stories? 0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:08.320 It made me. You know, in episode one, I mentioned 0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:12.120 the one time when I very strongly believed in someone's 0:16:12.120 --> 0:16:14.880 innocence and got it wrong and I had to grapple 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:18.800 with that, And I think as journalists we need to 0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:22.600 think about what we do. Part of our job when 0:16:22.640 --> 0:16:26.320 we become journalists is to do no harm. That's part 0:16:26.360 --> 0:16:32.160 of our rules and ethics guidelines do no harm. So 0:16:32.200 --> 0:16:36.280 it really put the light on myself and thinking about 0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:40.000 my reporting and that time I did do harm, not 0:16:40.080 --> 0:16:44.680 necessarily to the man that wound up being guilty, but 0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:47.600 to the victim because I brought that story up again. 0:16:48.560 --> 0:16:50.320 So that is something to think about when we do 0:16:50.400 --> 0:16:54.160 cover these cases of wrongful convictions. There are victims and 0:16:54.240 --> 0:16:59.440 victims families, and so I think it really helped me 0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:04.080 process this role of a journalist, especially when we do 0:17:04.280 --> 0:17:07.960 use emotion and empathy as a tool, and how we 0:17:08.600 --> 0:17:13.520 present that and use that in a way that is ethical. 0:17:14.880 --> 0:17:16.800 You know, that's interesting. I was listening to some of 0:17:16.840 --> 0:17:18.480 your you know, obviously there's people who didn't want to 0:17:18.520 --> 0:17:20.679 talk to you, and did you feel the presence of 0:17:20.720 --> 0:17:23.800 like being an outsider and like you couldn't penetrate because. 0:17:23.600 --> 0:17:26.359 Well, one of the things that we heard right away is, 0:17:27.240 --> 0:17:29.840 you know, this is a very rural southern town. It 0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:33.760 not necessarily segregated, but people often whites stay with the 0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:36.440 whites and they talk about it like that. And when 0:17:36.440 --> 0:17:39.480 we came in, instantly it was you're a white person, 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:42.760 no one's going to talk to you. That is how 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:45.119 that town is. I mean, so I really had to 0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:50.480 build relationships and make myself trustworthy. And these are people 0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:52.560 who have had the worst of the worst happen to them, 0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:58.120 be convicted of crimes, a horrible rape and murder and 0:17:58.240 --> 0:18:02.280 burning of a teenage girl. So yeah, I was. I 0:18:02.359 --> 0:18:04.520 was very much an outsider, very much. 0:18:05.680 --> 0:18:07.679 Some people ask me about this, you know, when it 0:18:07.720 --> 0:18:10.560 comes to like Florida, You know, do you think this 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:12.840 story will matter to people outside of Florida? And I 0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:14.480 have an answer for that, but I'm just curious what 0:18:14.520 --> 0:18:18.000 your answer. People who don't know Mayfield, Kentucky, why would 0:18:18.040 --> 0:18:20.200 they be interested in this? And can you explain? 0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:22.960 I think the thing that we loved the most when 0:18:22.960 --> 0:18:26.480 we first when Rebecca and I, my producer Rebecca, were 0:18:26.520 --> 0:18:29.000 first talking about this. To us, it reminded us of 0:18:29.080 --> 0:18:32.080 like I never watched gossip Girl, but just the title 0:18:32.160 --> 0:18:35.920 gossip Girl. It was like all these teenage girls gossiping 0:18:36.400 --> 0:18:42.240 about what happened to their friend, and those rumors turned 0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:47.439 into this conviction. And that can happen anywhere when people 0:18:47.560 --> 0:18:53.320 start telling stories and spinning tales and gossiping. That can 0:18:53.359 --> 0:18:57.040 happen anywhere, not just small town Mayfield, Kentucky. So I 0:18:57.080 --> 0:19:01.000 think yes, It happened in a rural small town, but 0:19:01.080 --> 0:19:09.399 it's emblematic of wrongful convictions everywhere. Really, people making up 0:19:09.480 --> 0:19:14.040 lies and blaming people, pointing the finger because we need answers. 0:19:14.240 --> 0:19:16.640 It's just like a human we need to blame someone, 0:19:16.680 --> 0:19:20.159 and the blame here. Everyone was just pointing fingers at 0:19:20.200 --> 0:19:24.800 each other. And that is why Susan came in, because 0:19:24.800 --> 0:19:28.080 there was a void. It was it was a prime 0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:33.320 situation to go wrong because the police got it wrong 0:19:33.359 --> 0:19:35.399 from the beginning. They bungled it, they messed it up 0:19:35.400 --> 0:19:38.479 from the beginning, so from there it was just a 0:19:38.520 --> 0:19:39.120 free for all. 0:19:39.400 --> 0:19:42.080 One of the other things I felt really moving was 0:19:42.720 --> 0:19:46.800 I'm just hearing from Jessica's father, and I'm just curious, 0:19:46.840 --> 0:19:49.159 like what your take on him was, because it just 0:19:49.160 --> 0:19:52.960 seemed like I could really relate to him as you know, 0:19:53.080 --> 0:19:55.720 a father and just what that would do to you. 0:19:55.960 --> 0:19:57.920 And I just found him very moving. 0:19:57.920 --> 0:20:02.080 In the story, jo is a moving character. I mean, 0:20:03.240 --> 0:20:07.960 he grew up in the Jim Crow South. From a 0:20:08.000 --> 0:20:10.560 lot of his life, the only black guy. He grew 0:20:10.640 --> 0:20:14.040 up in this world of white people, and he did 0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:16.480 well in that world, in the Jim Crow South, and 0:20:16.520 --> 0:20:19.560 then in segregation and reesis he did well. He was 0:20:19.640 --> 0:20:22.520 a pillar in this town, and when his daughter was murdered, 0:20:23.040 --> 0:20:25.160 he thought all these people that he did good for 0:20:25.240 --> 0:20:28.720 and helped and was around and would do right by him. 0:20:29.800 --> 0:20:34.359 And they didn't. They absolutely didn't. They failed Joe Kerran 0:20:34.480 --> 0:20:37.000 in every way possible. And I think that's what was 0:20:37.040 --> 0:20:39.280 so sad about it. It was a guy who did 0:20:39.320 --> 0:20:44.239 everything right and persevered through everything and then was just 0:20:44.640 --> 0:20:51.399 let down so badly. And I think you know, he 0:20:51.480 --> 0:20:54.200 knows he might never get those because with a story 0:20:54.280 --> 0:20:57.239 like this, where there is just so much bullshit, it 0:20:57.320 --> 0:21:00.679 might be lost. It might very well be lost. 0:21:01.440 --> 0:21:03.160 I'm just curious. Is he like one of the people 0:21:03.160 --> 0:21:05.160 that you think about when you're trying to dig into 0:21:05.160 --> 0:21:08.640 the story, Like I just want to make him have answers, 0:21:08.880 --> 0:21:11.159 Like I would feel so motivated by the way he spoke. 0:21:12.000 --> 0:21:16.560 It's him and David, and I got closer with David 0:21:17.960 --> 0:21:20.359 because Joe dealt with another tragedy. One of his sons 0:21:20.400 --> 0:21:23.120 died while we were reporting this. I mean, the currents 0:21:23.359 --> 0:21:26.360 have just had loss after a lot, like we couldn't 0:21:26.640 --> 0:21:32.879 believe another son died, or son died, two kids, So 0:21:33.119 --> 0:21:35.119 you know, I didn't get to build as close of 0:21:35.119 --> 0:21:38.600 a relationship with Joe that I did with David. But 0:21:38.720 --> 0:21:42.040 what it was so beautiful to me about Joe is 0:21:42.080 --> 0:21:46.040 that he was willing to listen to David and sit 0:21:46.160 --> 0:21:50.600 down with him, the man whose son is convicted of 0:21:50.720 --> 0:21:54.159 murdering your daughter. It's a very like Jeremy Leo. He 0:21:54.280 --> 0:21:56.960 was like, I'll sit down and listen to your information 0:21:57.560 --> 0:21:59.720 that brings up stuff for him, like looking at your 0:21:59.800 --> 0:22:03.280 daughter's case file, looking at what was done to her. 0:22:05.480 --> 0:22:08.000 He suffered through all of that just to get answers 0:22:08.520 --> 0:22:10.359 he is. He's an incredible person. 0:22:10.880 --> 0:22:14.080 Yeah, it really comes across and I just the empathy 0:22:14.119 --> 0:22:17.080 and just I remember there's one like very casual comment, 0:22:17.119 --> 0:22:19.000 like a waitress says to him, like you look like 0:22:19.080 --> 0:22:21.679 you just lost your best friends something like that, and 0:22:21.840 --> 0:22:24.240 realizes what it's about. And I just found that so 0:22:24.359 --> 0:22:25.679 profound in the story. 0:22:26.359 --> 0:22:31.399 And he still he really does. Joe feels like he 0:22:31.520 --> 0:22:33.200 is carrying the weight of the world. You know what, 0:22:33.359 --> 0:22:38.240 We've met with a lot of victims families, and he 0:22:38.359 --> 0:22:41.199 is not someone that I that I can say, you know, 0:22:41.680 --> 0:22:45.879 is just moving on, like he really this destroyed him. 0:22:46.280 --> 0:22:49.000 You know, his wife wasn't there. She can't even talk 0:22:49.040 --> 0:22:51.520 about it, so I never met her, talked to her. 0:22:52.160 --> 0:22:54.680 She doesn't want anything to do with this kind of stuff, 0:22:54.720 --> 0:22:59.080 and it's just too hard. It's too hard, and so 0:22:59.119 --> 0:23:02.199 for Joe to be out there been doing this, We've 0:23:02.240 --> 0:23:03.840 been wondering, like, is Joe going to listen to this? 0:23:03.880 --> 0:23:06.000 Because the whole time, it's like, we want to make sure, 0:23:07.119 --> 0:23:10.280 you know, the father of Jessica is able to listen 0:23:10.280 --> 0:23:13.119 to this. We thought about him and we kind of 0:23:13.119 --> 0:23:15.000 were like, me, he might not really listen to this. 0:23:15.680 --> 0:23:26.800 That is just how could you? It's so hard. 0:23:31.960 --> 0:23:35.000 Sometimes people ask me like has this case changed you? 0:23:35.440 --> 0:23:38.200 And I'm just curious, like, going through this process, it's 0:23:38.240 --> 0:23:44.280 obviously very labor intensive, investigatively intensive. Did it affect you differently? 0:23:44.320 --> 0:23:45.640 Did you come away from this differently? 0:23:46.640 --> 0:23:49.359 Yeah? I mean as a journalist, it really made me 0:23:49.400 --> 0:23:52.400 look inwards because when we wanted to be reporting on 0:23:53.320 --> 0:23:59.160 all of these allegations against the police, we set out 0:23:59.160 --> 0:24:02.200 to do that, right, we were making an episode all 0:24:02.280 --> 0:24:04.600